Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: hoosiergose on May 29, 2020, 08:29:32 PM

Title: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on May 29, 2020, 08:29:32 PM
It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on May 29, 2020, 11:30:31 PM
Hoosiergose, somewhere on this forum, I read that the pass was not closed for three years.  It would really be nice to know the truth.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on May 29, 2020, 11:46:34 PM
I know that there are people on this forum that have been on it for awhile.  But, for those who don't know, there is a tremendous amount of information in discussions from two to three years ago. 
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on May 30, 2020, 03:30:22 PM
@ Sparrow- Yes - and I have read many of the post and there are countless Theories on this forum suggesting what caused their demise. No single theory seems to fit.
And..... just because you read something on this Forum does not necessarily mean it is factual or has any substance. My point being- anyone on here can say anything. I am just stating that it has been so long and multiple possible scenarios that I really doubt we will ever really know what actually happened to the Dyatlov nine back in February 1959.
Unless - the Russian Government decides to release everything they know. Very unlikely to happen-
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on May 30, 2020, 03:40:54 PM
Hoosiergose, somewhere on this forum, I read that the pass was not closed for three years.  It would really be nice to know the truth.

Yes Sparrow- good point- was the Dyatlov Pass area off limits for 3 years? Is this a myth? Can this be substantiated or debunked?

There is one FACT you cannot ignore - people were persuaded by the Soviet Govt. to keep quiet about this event and the Govt, prematurely shut down the investigation- this is supported by statements made by the hikers family members & the Chief Investigator Ivanov later revealed this later in the early nineties when he felt free and safe enough to speak about it. The Soviet Authorities put a lid on this event for a reason. The Dyatlov Pass incident has cover up written all over it. KGB
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: RidgeWatcher on May 31, 2020, 10:43:30 AM
It may have been Donnie Eicher's book or Svetlanan Oss' book where I read the Dyatlov Pass was closed down due to possible radiation endangerment to other ski tourists and hikers for 3 years.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on May 31, 2020, 02:30:30 PM
It may have been Donnie Eicher's book or Svetlanan Oss' book where I read the Dyatlov Pass was closed down due to possible radiation endangerment to other ski tourists and hikers for 3 years.

Dear RidgeWatcher !

Let's take this information in detail and without any superfluous entities?
The fact that the terrain was "closed" is very big convention. It was common decision of the bureaucrats from the University of UPI and the sports club Sverdlovsk city, that travelers groups did not go to this place. It had nothing to do with the radiation. They (bureaucrats) were afraid that there would be no repetition of these events and no one would die there later. However, this only concerned those who lived in Sverdlovsk. Groups from other cities travelled there in March and summer of that year. It is common practice of officials to forbid anything to happen.
The danger of radiation in this case is greatly overestimated.
Let's look into it in detail, shall we?
The highest radiation measured on their clothes is 9,900 decays per minute in an area of 150 square centimetres. And that's beta radiation, or ordinary electrons, like in electronic lamps. It's weak penetration power.
If you count this in Becquerel (modern units of radioactivity), you get 165 Bq. Approximately the same amount of natural radioactivity gives 2 kilogramm /KG/- (4.5 lb) bananas or 1.5 kG (3.3 lb) potatoes (but these are larger substances). This is only slightly (2 or 3 times) above the natural radioactivity of the earth. In order get health damage over long period of time, it is necessary exceed this background by 1000 or several thousand times.
For example, with such exposure (at 165 Bq, which is 3 times more than the natural background) one person weighing 70 kg (155 lb) will percevoir lethal dose (in 50% of cases) for time equal to 750 million hours or 85 thousand 616 years.
This mutely exceeds the average age of homme.  grin1
The origin of this radiation can be double and equal in probability:
1. Or it was brought by Georgy Krivonishchenko on his clothes, as he worked in the territory where 2 years before there had been accident connected with radiation (factory "Mayak" or "Chelyabinsk-40" in 1957).
2. Or it is radioactive fallout from the Novaya Zemlya nuclear test site, where lot nuclear explosions took place in 1958. From the pass to this site is relatively close - 1400 km (870 mi). Radioactive dust was carried by the wind and settled on the surface of the ground on large area. Then water (rain or snow that melted) carried it to the brook in this place. Then the stream water would wash this (weak) radioactive dirt to the clothes people in the stream.
Here are all the "terrible tales" about radiation and the atomic cause of death of Dyatlov's group.

Many authors, especially if they write it from other people's words and are not experts in the field themselves, write not very correct text. Actually, with Donnie Eichar we discussed with Yuri Yudin many details of his book. If my sclerosis doesn't change me  bang1, he wrote there about what I wrote few lines above.
Svetlana Osadchuk (or Oss, as her abbreviated name is in English) is ordinary journalist, with the peculiarity that she writes in English. She has very little knowledge information and lot factual errors in his text and ideas.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on May 31, 2020, 11:26:56 PM
Would this also take into account the rate of decay of the radioactivity on the clothes  over (about) the two weeks some think they would have lain in the water? bow7
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 01, 2020, 07:19:43 AM
Would this also take into account the rate of decay of the radioactivity on the clothes  over (about) the two weeks some think they would have lain in the water? bow7

It is not the decay rate that must be taken into account, but the current radioactivity level. The speed and prediction will be determined by mathematical methods. The point at which the measurements were made is recorded in the examination, and the changes will be determined by the physics process.
The trends of such changes are understandable, but uncertain because one needs know exactly how they lay, how the water flows went, and the intensity of the flows, where the pieces of tissue that were investigated were located.
In general, this dirt could both be washed more and more, and washed away. It could only be washed away when it was superimposed before it entered the stream. Otherwise, after certain amount washed up dirt, there must be stabilization its quantity. This will work if the body and the clothes are not turned in the stream.
But these are all very small changes that have little effect on the maximum measured levels.
Even these (maximum data measured) levels are very small compared to the natural background.
In our case, it is impossible obtain changes several times, and even more so in tens and hundreds of times.
From this, we can conclude that radioactivity has not affected the course and results of the incident in any way. This is a concomitant factor that must be understood and taken into account only in the way that it is available.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 02, 2020, 12:41:02 AM
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.
I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 02, 2020, 01:07:36 AM
WAB, I would also.  I get the impression you work a lot with physics.  I personally would love to see the different sciences come together to (maybe) solve this mystery
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: MDGross on June 02, 2020, 09:17:23 AM
The crucial question is, of course, why did the hikers exit their tent the way they did. How many things had to occur to lead to this final, fatal result? For example, one of the simplest explanations would be that the unity of the group unraveled. Maybe Zolotaryov and the others found with him in the ravine had become critical of Dyatlov. A serious fight ensued and one group, out of fear, fled the tent followed by the other group. Only one thing needs to be proven: did the nine split into two hostile groups?
On the other end of the spectrum is, for example, involvement by the KGB. What was the motive? Why confront the hikers on that particular night? Why make them march down to the trees below? These and other questions would need believable answers. So the complexity of finding a final answer increases greatly. The more questions that need to be answered, the less likely that the mystery will ever be solved.
There are lots of theories, 76 I think, ranging from the simple to the complex, but no indisputable proof. Will we really know what happened? In my opinion the answer is no, unless by some miracle, "official" documentation is found.
That's not to say that there aren't plausible theories. But they remain theories, and the "truth" remains as elusive as ever.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 02, 2020, 12:21:31 PM
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.

It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 02, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
WAB, I would also.  I get the impression you work a lot with physics.  I personally would love to see the different sciences come together to (maybe) solve this mystery

You're absolutely right. I think the same thing. As far as my knowledge allows me, I'm trying to do it. I want turn your (and all other forum readers) that this is the only way come to the truth. In addition, I would like say that there is very bad tendency - constant and growing use of inaccurate and false information. If we do not check the information for authenticity, we can come to dead end. What happens all the time on different small and large issues.
Every event has events logic and its actual conditions. If both of these conditions are neglected, nothing can be achieved.
I call on everyone who has real interest in solving this case make full these rules use. This is nothing more than " Ockham's razor. "
However, there are so many different fantasists who achieve any goal, not the truthful disclosure of this mystery. They seem to want to write a script for Hollywood in the style of " Horror Movies " and self-affirm, and the truth they are not interested at all. In life, there is simpler result than fiction, but come to understanding what happened you need apply lot knowledge, time and labor. And without any extra fantasies, which only worsen understanding.
So I think that the most important thing is have reliable source information. It is enough in different sources, you just need be able intelligently analyze it.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 02, 2020, 06:04:54 PM
WAB, do you think the English translations of the Russian records, reports, etc. are correct?  Do you think there is one translation that is more accurate than another?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 02, 2020, 09:48:43 PM
The crucial question is, of course, why did the hikers exit their tent the way they did. How many things had to occur to lead to this final, fatal result? For example, one of the simplest explanations would be that the unity of the group unraveled. Maybe Zolotaryov and the others found with him in the ravine had become critical of Dyatlov. A serious fight ensued and one group, out of fear, fled the tent followed by the other group. Only one thing needs to be proven: did the nine split into two hostile groups?
On the other end of the spectrum is, for example, involvement by the KGB. What was the motive? Why confront the hikers on that particular night? Why make them march down to the trees below? These and other questions would need believable answers. So the complexity of finding a final answer increases greatly. The more questions that need to be answered, the less likely that the mystery will ever be solved.
There are lots of theories, 76 I think, ranging from the simple to the complex, but no indisputable proof. Will we really know what happened? In my opinion the answer is no, unless by some miracle, "official" documentation is found.
That's not to say that there aren't plausible theories. But they remain theories, and the "truth" remains as elusive as ever.

Thanks MD Gross - well said
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 03, 2020, 09:17:36 AM
WAB, do you think the English translations of the Russian records, reports, etc. are correct?  Do you think there is one translation that is more accurate than another?

Unfortunately, I find there are many translation errors and terms misinterpretations due to differences in understanding between countries. These are professional features of such activities.
I don't know about all translations, so I can't say exactly where there are more correct ones.  I've tried to comment on the differences in some files, but it's such big job that I don't even know if I should do it systematically.
Of course, if I come across such fragments during the discussion, I will give comment, but I am not able to do that for all fragments.
The problem is that even the same words can be understood differently both in different languages and in different professional communities. For example, in the legal community. Especially if the principles of the law are different in different countries. There are also peculiarities national psychology and culture.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:52:22 PM
It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.

Archaeologists are finding things from thousands of years ago.   60 years is nothing in the history of things.  Because of this Forum and the Web Site created by Teddy more and more information slowly but surely comes to light.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 03, 2020, 09:57:10 PM
@ Sarapuk -I serious doubt it - unless there is a document hidden away by the Soviet Govt that suddenly comes to light - this enigma will probably never be solved. There are well over 70 so called theories and counting. And honestly how can we expect archeology solve this mystery? Hmmmm?
If they do a dig there, what could they really possibly hope to find? What ? A note saying - Help- the mansi got us - Please give me a break Sir. SMH
I enjoy reading the comments on this blog and find some of the comments very amusing  - but I honestly see mostly bizarre & confounding statements & misleading conjecture and very little in the way of a viable plausible solution to what really happened to the Dyatlov Hikers.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 03, 2020, 10:16:03 PM
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.
Sir - your response was a long winded, rambling dissertation-that said nothing-
I merely asked you one direct simple question-
What do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers? You can go back & re-read your response & see the answer I got from you.
A long rambling rant of little value-
My question went totally un-answered
I won’t ask you anymore questions Sir


It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 03, 2020, 10:24:49 PM
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.


It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

@ WAB- Sir- I asked you a very direct simple question- what do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Monika on June 03, 2020, 10:35:20 PM
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.

It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

Hello, Mr. WAB

I am willing to believe that infrasound has developed in the place and that it may have influenced the behavior of tourists. They cut the tent in panic and left it. However, why did they go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way. Footprints in the snow show that when they descended, they stood on their feet, no trace of the outline of the body or hand, etc., but only their footprint appeared in the snow. This means that in a dark, extreme cold and high snow, they went upright. If they were hit / affected by infrasound, they would not be able to behave so “cold-blooded” and logical. Even when a person is in good mental condition, in the wind and in high snow it is strenuous to maintain balance and not to stumble. Their cold-bloodedness also manifested itself in the forest, where they were able to build a campfire and a den.

This theory would apply only if the infrasound maintained only at the tents and in close proximity. But the footprints of the tourists appear relative near the tent. The infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. That would have to be an incredible coincidence.

But yes, I am also a supporter of the theory that the whole event was triggered by some natural phenomenon, perhaps very rare and not yet explored by humans.

What I miss in Eichar's book are serious surveys from doctors about the effect of infrasound on people, Eichar did not take their opinions into account at all, he did not address any doctor. He focused only on the physical side of things. For this reason, his book, and therefore his theory, is only speculation, just like other theories.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 05, 2020, 03:56:16 PM

@ WAB- Sir- I asked you a very direct simple question- what do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers?

The question is not as simple as you think, if you think so. It's only about psychology that you need to be well versed, and there's also physics, physiology, meteorology, local conditions and such traveler`s training.
Very briefly, it will be as follows: they were affected by rare natural phenomenon, which resulted in altered state of consciousness (ASC), because of which they cut their tent and ran away from it. Then (after a while) they under the action of relaxation (switching of consciousness) as result of extreme environmental conditions began return to normal perception and how they could fight for their own survival. Their strength and means (clothes, equipment) were limited, so they died from hypothermia at different times and in different places. In some cases, the death was associated with injuries of varying severity. The cold accelerated and complicated the death. The main cause of their deaths was cold.
The most important thing understand at the first stage of this study is that their accident has two different components:
1. Escape from the tent (this is the first factor),
2. All the following that was determined by the conditions of the natural environment.
After #1, it was possible to do nothing, nature finished everything else on its own.
So #1 is the point of no return to life in their conditions.
Everybody, who asks a question: why they didn't survive, should think on question: how much time can live man in insufficient clothes, if his heat consumption in environment (in those conditions) is 300...500 Watt, and metabolic heat (heat emission as result of normal processes in organism) at rest is 50...80 Watt. Accompanying factors I will not consider any more. They would have had enough of this alone.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 05, 2020, 04:15:40 PM
Hello, Mr.

Dear Monika !
Perhaps you are trying to confirm my fears that you should not discuss complex and little studied phenomena with people who have very little information about it.
However, I will try explain something to you personally by at least pointing out where you are wrong even in the assumptions and basic physical properties of infrasound (IS).
I have already written about it on this forum. Alas, I have repeat myself, but I understand that it's difficult look through everything because there's lot of written information here.
I'm not sure I'll do the same thing again for someone else unless they have the knowledge of the one I mentioned in my previous article and the phrase I left above.
At first, I wanted talk about the method of building our conversation. You have everything built like the majority: you've all fallen into one pile, you've mixed up facts and concepts and you don't understand small transitions (like halftones in photo).
I'll try to explain it to you on the model. When you make soup, it's not like you put uncut (or washed) food in pot, or try to eat it raw... just like here: You should arrange everything on the shelves (separate from the peel, cut into pieces, put each vegetable in its own time and in certain sequence) without rushing to think and gain knowledge as it is already customary in science (boil, but not digest...), add spices (practical knowledge) and get ready (and delicious) product.
But let us consider everything in order of your questions.

I am willing to believe that infrasound has developed in the place and that it may have influenced the behavior of tourists. They cut the tent in panic and left it. However, why did they go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way.

You're confusing cause and effect. They only went there because they had nowhere else to go and had the strength and ability reach the places where they were found.
Speaking of which, they "go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way." (c) no such information. There is only talk of it and persistent myths. The error of this you will read below. Unfortunately, I do not fully understand your term "quietly", but I will leave it alone for now.

Footprints in the snow show that when they descended, they stood on their feet, no trace of the outline of the body or hand, etc., but only their footprint appeared in the snow. This means that in a dark, extreme cold and high snow, they went upright.

“upright" - what does that apply to? Is it straight line from tent to cedar? No, it's a very mistaken opinion.
1. It's impossible walk in straight line there. If you don't believe me, come to the slope in winter and try it. Anyway, it didn't work out for anyone who was there.
2. They were found in different places not on one straight line, the angle of scattering from the straight line is very large there. Someone has long said about the "straight line", not thinking very well about what it is, and everyone has been repeating it ever since, without thinking or checking it on the spot and on the points. I checked, and it didn't work out...
3. I've talked about footprints, too, and I've talked about them repeatedly. It's such meme, too. The traces were found at relatively long length (I will not go through who and how I said), but the maximum length that could be, it is 380 ... 400 meters. Further on, the zone of snow deposition began (a difference after the third stone ridge) and there the traces could not be found. Next, the tracks had no continuous path, where there were all traces, and even there were relatively long areas where there were no traces. All the photos you saw were 10...20 m and no more. Even if there were 10 of them, it wasn't continuous chain. And even they weren't on the same line. Look at the picture that Mikhail Sharavin drew when he was interviewed about it. There are traces that go at an angle of about 30 degrees towards the cedar. Do you know what the deviation would be if "they were walking in straight line"? Approximately 700 meters. with only two bodies found near the cedar. The others were found elsewhere, on the other side of the straight "tent - cedar".  And you say "organized"...
4. The footprints didn't appear right behind the tent. The minimum distance where they could appear was -25...30 meters. Because right behind the tent there is inflection of the slope and there is much more snow than nearby, so they could not form there - the snow must be well squeezed, and it depends on the thickness. If you don't press the trail on the surface fix snow, the trail won't stay there for long time, even under the conditions that others will stay on better surface.
5. The total number of traces they have calculated only "integrally" - having traced the whole chain (in different places) throughout where the traces were at all. This is possible if there is experienced tracker. Alexey Chernyshov could have done it, he had lot of experience in it.
Do you have enough objections and justification for this in this question?

If they were hit / affected by infrasound, they would not be able to behave so “cold-blooded” and logical. Even when a person is in good mental condition, in the wind and in high snow it is strenuous to maintain balance and not to stumble.

What do you mean by "acting so 'cold-blooded' and logical" (c) ? Who could have determined that? I don't know someone who was there, saw everything and then (survived) told it all? If there is no such person, then do not use other people's fictions...
And about the balance and tripping, you're obviously overreacting with these assumptions. Zina has large abrasion on the lower back, Nicholas Thibault habened through wound of the skull and could not go on his own, almost everyone has skin abrasions and damage to clothing, which can be obtained only on the stones of the third stone ridge or slightly higher. The tailwind and darkness contributed greatly to this. There were only very small number of places where you could get abrasions, but not as much injury as Thibault. Maybe you know place like this and you can tell me where it is.

Their cold-bloodedness also manifested itself in the forest, where they were able to build a campfire and a den.
This theory would apply only if the infrasound maintained only at the tents and in close proximity.

You have very vague ideas about infrasound and its properties. Why do you think it was only in the tent? It's very large area where the sound wave exists and can't "break" and fade from distance. For example, it can be changed by reflection or diffraction from other small objects that it envelops. I do not know where you get these properties from, but they have nothing to do with the real IS properties. At sea, this kind of sound wave extends over many hundreds of kilometres. But to do that, you have have many almost identical sea wave troughs. Here it does not exist, but the wave propagation in forestless zone (or above the trees) may well be many tens of kilometers with gradual and small fading.

But the footprints of the tourists appear relative near the tent.

No, it's not, but I wrote little higher about it.

The infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. That would have to be an incredible coincidence.

Once again, this is false idea of such waves. The attenuation depends on the length of the sound wave, according to the principle: the longer the wave, the smaller the attenuation value. I do not understand, where did you get the information about IS properties?

But yes, I am also a supporter of the theory that the whole event was triggered by some natural phenomenon, perhaps very rare and not yet explored by humans.

Your position is clear and I can support it, but, unfortunately, your knowledge level about IS properties and it characteristics is very low. Perhaps this is the reason why you do not want accept this phenomenon as the cause of events.
Would you like to cite something as an alternative to this phenomenon?

What I miss in Eichar's book are serious surveys from doctors about the effect of infrasound on people, Eichar did not take their opinions into account at all, he did not address any doctor. He focused only on the physical side of things. For this reason, his book, and therefore his theory, is only speculation, just like other theories.

You want lot of things... He almost accidentally found Dr. Bernard at NOAA. I thought that when he was coming back to America from Ekaterinburg, and was in Moscow only one day, I would be able introduce him and get good consultation from Professor Valery Gordienko from Moscow State Lomonosov University. But Gordienko was not in Moscow in that day and he could not get it.
So let's count how many people in the world deal with such acoustic problems. The very physics of this phenomenon is engaged in: 2 people in Russia, 3 people in the USA (one in them is from Russia), let's say 10 more countries (this is when they were engaged in development of non-lethal weapon) + 15...20. Practically that's all. I take only the right level of researchers and those who are engaged in aeronautics of ultra-low frequencies. There are many others who deal with ultra-low-frequency waves in the sea (here the needs are much greater from military sailors), but these are specialists of different profile. Around as if someone were doing conductors, against semiconductors or dielectrics. Do you understand my comparison?
Specialists of different profile are not suitable for us.
We got about 30 people in total. All over the world!
There are even fewer physicians and physiologists. There's no systematic or in-depth research. Do you know why? Because you won't get a commercial product as result.
I don't take those who write safety instructions that say IS exists, it can be dangerous and you should avoid frequencies below 16 Hertz. This is more about vibrations, but they know something about aeroacoustics, if anything, it's just the name itself.
That's why he didn't give these opinions. That he just hasn't found someone who knows something about it well.
By the way, I was deeply impressed by one objection to me after the publication of article in the newspaper "Komsomolskaya Pravda" from medical doctor with scientific degree. The article with my interview was organized by the newspaper itself. He said that all this is possible, but it's not infrasound, but change in pressure. "Wonderful" medical doctors know physics... :))) A sound wave is what? Is it not pressure change (fluctuation)? They teach it even in usual school.

Now I say resume: in order speak on this subject you need know the subject of the conversation well. It is not your fault, it is the trouble of everyone who thinks that simple methods can solve complex and poorly studied issues.
Much, on which you have built questions, arose only on the basis of outside conversations, which does not stand even small check on the validity. That is, again, there is construction of conclusions on the unreliable information. It turns out that you can not only get reliable conclusions, but also understand what should follow.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 05, 2020, 11:13:18 PM
WAGS - can you explain what you think caused the extremely serious injuries to some of the hikers? Especially the crushing flail chest (rib cage) injuries suffered by Seymon & Lyudmilla? Those injuries cannot be attributable to infrasound.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 06, 2020, 12:49:11 AM
Thanks a lot for your explanation WAB. good-posting   I do so love math and science.  Even with the information we have, I am sure that there are theories that we can (and maybe should) put to bed.  The human imagination can give us an infinite number of theories and I would hope that that would not be our goal. cry2  Just my opinion.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 06, 2020, 01:44:50 AM
Sparrow- unfortunately, WAG’S long winded explanation is seriously flawed. Infrasound does NOT explain the skull fractures & crushed ribs inflicted upon several of the hikers. The facts simply do not support that theory.
I have noticed that WAGS likes to dispel a lot of verbiage without really saying anything. We must look elsewhere for the reason the hikers died. The facts do not really support the infrasound hypothesis. IMHO - whatever caused the hikers to flee the tent in the first place also caused those severe injuries inflicted upon the hikers. Simple basic logic should be your guide on solving any mystery. I am a licensed Private Investigator- and I earn my living solving things. That’s what I do. It all comes down to the - Who, What, How, Why, Where and When. You take all the facts and they will lead you to the truth.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 06, 2020, 03:24:53 AM
Hi hoosiergose.  I definitely agree with you on "all the facts".  My husband was a police officer and he would often go on about people making assumptions in miscellaneous cases.  You collect all the facts and you make no assumptions (no matter how much you may want to).  I think that if you had to go to court with any of these theories now, you would probably get laughed out of court. lol2
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 06, 2020, 05:29:29 AM
Sparrow- unfortunately, WAG’S long winded explanation is seriously flawed. Infrasound does NOT explain the skull fractures & crushed ribs inflicted upon several of the hikers.

You constantly make the same mistakes, which are made by almost everyone who tries judge this case without having enough knowledge - constantly throw everything into one pile and then you are unable understand it yourself. I don't think you can't read, but the fact that you don't understand what you've been told is sad fact.
I wrote in last message especially for you:


The most important thing understand at the first stage of this study is that their accident has two different components:
1. Escape from the tent (this is the first factor),
2. All the following that was determined by the conditions of the natural environment.
After #1, it was possible to do nothing, nature finished everything else on its own.
So #1 is the point of no return to life in their conditions.


If you don't understand that, the best thing to do is ask around. You're throwing meaningless accusations instead of raising your literacy and awareness.
The injuries are the result of other processes that took place after they fled the tent and infrasound has nothing to do with it. From what you write, you either cannot understand such simple things or you do not want to do them on purpose.
I have a big article about all the injuries, their causes, and where they occurred. This article is written in Russian. Here's her address: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing  . If you really want understand what happened (and not shout something against what they say), pls translate it and begreifen it out. Nobody has give you everything ready if you have interest in something.

The facts simply do not support that theory.

Please show which "Facts just don't support this theory"?

I have noticed that WAGS likes to dispel a lot of verbiage without really saying anything. We must look elsewhere for the reason the hikers died.

I get the impression that you stubbornly do not want to understand something, but want to push your understanding at any cost, or unreasonably discredit what others offer. It is especially important that you are against what is based on a large and thorough study of the case. Although your argument against it has almost no basis. It is based on ignorance of the basis of events and other details.

The facts do not really support the infrasound hypothesis.

Please show which "Facts do not support the infrasound hypothesis." ?
If you are unable to do so, then your words are the empty sound.

IMHO - whatever caused the hikers to flee the tent in the first place also caused those severe injuries inflicted upon the hikers.

Naturally. Only it is necessary understand that running away from tent is the cause of the beginning of events, and getting injured is its continuation and is the result of the natural environment dangers, which were higher than human capabilities.

Simple basic logic should be your guide on solving any mystery.

So, be guided by facts, knowledge of specific local conditions, and logic, not fictional and ridiculous considerations. Here are the questions that should dot ander “i”:
1. What do you know about the conditions in that place (please see details)?  The weather, the terrain, the availability of dangerous places, the possibility of movement, etc.
2. What do you know about the psychophysiology of people's behavior in the frost and in the cold.
3. Please let me know what you call logic and how you intend to use it in this case.

I am a licensed Private Investigator- and I earn my living solving things.

So you're very bad detective if you're based on your own fictions and gossip, not on knowing the reality, given that you haven't seen what you're talking about at all and don't even know the basics of what you're investigating.  The detailed answers (if any) to the questions above are the criteria for what I am telling you.

That’s what I do. It all comes down to the - Who, What, How, Why, Where and When. You take all the facts and they will lead you to the truth.

If you say the right words, it turns out that after that you do the exact opposite.
All the facts are set out in the criminal case (there will be no others and can't be others in principle), and specification on the injuries (you consider them the main reason of what happened?) is given in my article. It is very easy check it - you need go to the place yourself and check everything. Otherwise, you will discuss and judge not the facts, but your own speculations. Which is what we see in your messages.

**************************

PS. I am very interested find out, it is all private detectives have this method of investigation: first they decide what is right and what does not exist (even if it exists), and then the criminal and the charges are selected for it. They start looking in the wrong place - it's dark (lack of knowledge), and, conventionally speaking - "under street lamp - it's lighter (they all understand)”©.
Or it is only for some detectives?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 06, 2020, 05:32:14 AM
Thanks a lot for your explanation WAB. good-posting   I do so love math and science.  Even with the information we have, I am sure that there are theories that we can (and maybe should) put to bed.  The human imagination can give us an infinite number of theories and I would hope that that would not be our goal. cry2  Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion with great pleasure... thumb1
Take look at the article that I already gave you here. It says all about injuries and "with math..."  grin1
All of this has been investigated directly on site under different conditions.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 06, 2020, 05:37:25 AM
WAGS - can you explain what you think caused the extremely serious injuries to some of the hikers? Especially the crushing flail chest (rib cage) injuries suffered by Seymon & Lyudmilla?

1. I have a big request to you: You will first learn to write the name of the person you address correctly. This characterizes the level your professional competence.
2. All is well described in the article https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing  . it is in Russian, but if you are really interested in understanding what you are asking, it should not stop for you.
3. There is this science as biomechanics. It uses mathematics explain what can and cannot be. The article describes everything at the simplest possible level so that even people with the minimum necessary knowledge could understand it. You should be able understand it.


Those injuries cannot be attributable to infrasound.

Unfortunately, I have already said several times (but you never got it) that these are different reasons, they are not related. But one event follows the other directly and the second event (injury) is a consequence of the first (escape from the tent in the conditions that were).
Is that clear to you? Or you will again give out the desire to most clearly and in detail explain what you yourself are asking, as "verbose". bang1
If you are not able understand what you have written briefly, you have explain it long and tiresomely, because you do not understand, or pretend not understand. cry2

Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: hoosiergose on June 07, 2020, 12:14:23 AM
@WAB - to be clear - it is very difficult to understand what you are saying or the message you are trying to convey. I honestly don’t think you have a complete grasp of the English Language & there lies part of our problem. It has been said “communication is everything” you Sir need to work on your English language skills- I say this most respectfully and with no malice in my heart. We obviously do not agree & I won’t waste Your time or my time quibbling with you any longer. The facts as I see them - the hikers suddenly came under attack at the tent- the damage to the tent was far too extensive for just merely making a quick exit. That tent was literally tore all to hell and rendered useless. Two hikers suffered massive chest injuries & others had skull fractures- and infrasound cannot do this to the human body. One or two of the hikers climbed almost 20 feet into the cedar tree. I believe they climbed the tree because they were fleeing from something that was after them. Something so terrifying that it prevented them from returning to the tent to gather their warm clothing and footwear. Taking in all these facts- Occams Razor would dictate by mere basic simplicity that the 9 hikers were under some form of attack
attack - most likely human-
NOT - infrasound- WAB - respectfully- your English is very Dutchy & very hard to understand- I honestly almost need a translator. I am through arguing with you - Let us agree to disagree Sir -
To solve any riddle or mystery it is necessary to look at and consider all the facts at hand. You cannot pick & choose certain facts just to suit your own hypothesis or personal agenda. Oh - btw - it does appear from the autopsy report that Igor Dyatlov’s ankles had injuries consistent with being garroted - someone tied his ankles. Don’t sound like Infrasound to me. They came under attack - human attackers. The next question is “WHO”??? Take care WAG & work on your English- Cheers!
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: PJ on June 07, 2020, 07:41:07 AM
Two hikers suffered massive chest injuries & others had skull fractures- and infrasound cannot do this to the human body
Hoosiergose, do you really can't understand WAB??
He never said that the infrasound or some other rare nature phenomenon cause the fatal injuries. It only ignite the action for leaving the tent immediately. This was the first stage of the tragedy. The physical injuries happens on the way down and after around the Cedar and Ravine.
There is a post about some ravine deaths theory:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.0

And sure, this is just one of many theories, trying to explain the deaths without any help from other people.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 07, 2020, 01:00:20 PM
@WAB - to be clear - it is very difficult to understand what you are saying or the message you are trying to convey. I honestly don’t think you have a complete grasp of the English Language & there lies part of our problem. It has been said “communication is everything” you Sir need to work on your English language skills- I say this most respectfully and with no malice in my heart.

Sir, I have suspicion that you're trying dissuade yourself from answering questions you've been asked directly and specifically.
I know I have very little English conversation practice. However, I have no difficulty understanding what is written to me in almost any European language. This appeared long time ago, when I had translate and competently understand technical texts that had concepts in several sections of knowledge: mechanics, electronics, medicine, programming, ballistics. Nothing, we have successfully coped with it and now all that I understand and do not try hide behind the fact that literally in my language it is called abracadabra. I can claim to you that you do not know Russian, and therefore you cannot understand the meaning of what is written in criminal case, especially given that you do not know the legislation of that period either. Therefore, you are not able to qualify the reasons and events at all.
In addition, I know that others understand me. And if not, they ask questions which I try to answer in detail.
You do not have look for reason not to do certain thing, you have look for way to do it. Otherwise it turns out, as we have in the proverb: "Bad dancer during the dance are hampered by some genitals" (c)
So, you understand?
And I will ask you again: will you answer the questions you have been asked? Because it has all the answers to all your mistakes and biased judgments.

We obviously do not agree & I won’t waste Your time or my time quibbling with you any longer. The facts as I see them - the hikers suddenly came under attack at the tent- the damage to the tent was far too extensive for just merely making a quick exit.

With this, you confirmed exactly what I told you - you absolutely do not know the terms and substitute it for your own misconceptions. If you had even a mute knowledge of the logistics of this place (the way, conditions and means to get there), you would not have built such fantastic theories. The fact that nowhere there is any sign of other people being there, you just deliberately ignore it.
If you spoke about "logic", then say: if someone needs to commit a crime, he must necessarily go to the North Pole for this? And the logistics of this place is a little inferior to such movement. Even now, when there are additional roads and means of transportation.

That tent was literally tore all to hell and rendered useless.

What's the point of this statement? It's a consequence of another reason why it started. Where's your "logic"?

Two hikers suffered massive chest injuries & others had skull fractures- and infrasound cannot do this to the human body.

You need to repeat the individual letters again (apparently, you can't read - in the sense that you have familiar letters there, and you do not understand the meaning): They are different:
1. Stages of events by time,
2. It has different reasons,
3. One is independent of the other, but is a consequence of a sequence of events.
Are you gonna pretend again that you don't understand anything?
If so, tell me what you don't understand here (in detail and item by item), because I can't understand at all what might be unclear here.

One or two of the hikers climbed almost 20 feet into the cedar tree. I believe they climbed the tree because they were fleeing from something that was after them.

For detective, "faith" is not professional concept.
It's only in the church it's obligatory and indisputable. We're not in church.
It's true that they went up tree. I watched it on the spot - in winter, at the cedar itself, and I believe that only one person went up there at time. The other person could only get in the way. For him, there was no job or place where he could fit. But that doesn't mean that someone was chasing them. There's no connection or logic. This is your fantasy (or someone else you are recklessly repeating).
They had another and more important reason get in there: there was no other firewood around (within movement without skis). The main thing they needed was source of heat. If they had been chased, they would not have started fire that would not have been detected. Your "logic" is limping on all four legs.

Something so terrifying that it prevented them from returning to the tent to gather their warm clothing and footwear.

This statement of yours once again confirms that you are completely unaware of the conditions and invent fantastic fables.
They couldn't go back to the tent for other reasons:
1. They didn't know where they were,
2. They didn't know where the tent was,
3. They didn't know the distance, and they didn't know the direction to the tent very well.
4. They didn't have any guidance that could help them at that time.
5. The weather and conditions interfered with them: darkness and backwind.
I will not be able explain anything to you until you (perhaps with me for insurance) in winter and at night, can go down from the tent to the cedar (or any place) and try find the tent where we came from. I am 150% sure that you (or those same overconfident people) can't do that. This is understandable because we (Shura and I) have already gone there several times in winter and at night in different weather. We walked both together and alone, so we have enough observations and conclusions. But we already know everything so well that we can walk even with our eyes closed.

Taking in all these facts-

You didn't bring single fact. Everything you have said is your (or someone else's) fiction. On the spot, you can see it right away and very well.

Occams Razor would dictate by mere basic simplicity that the 9 hikers were under some form of attack

You have very bad idea about Ockham's Razor: he said there that you shouldn't introduce any extra entities, and you added it lot them. That's why you need correct your knowledge here, too. It doesn't have to be so superficial that you only know the name.

attack - most likely human-

Here we go! That's another superfluous entity that Occam was talking about.Have you even thought about how and why he might have gotten there? And you haven't even thought about how and why he might have got there? Could he have done something there without leaving trace? If you knew the conditions that existed there, especially if it was valid in 1959, you wouldn't say such ridiculous things.

NOT - infrasound- WAB - respectfully- your English is very Dutchy & very hard to understand- I honestly almost need a translator. I am through arguing with you - Let us agree to disagree Sir -

Sir, you don't need an interpreter for words, you need interpreter for understanding, and since you don't know the physics of infrasound or its properties, you'd better not talk about it.  And not to be ridiculous when you claim that if you don't know it, it doesn't exist. And if not give away your own gaps in education. Again, you don't even understand the difference in the sequence of events, because you're talking about the same thing to the wrong place.

To solve any riddle or mystery it is necessary to look at and consider all the facts at hand.

You have not been given even single fact, everything you have said is purely speculation and nothing more.

You cannot pick & choose certain facts just to suit your own hypothesis or personal agenda.

I don't choose anything and I don't miss anything. Everything fits the facts very well, but not the fiction of people who know very poorly what they are talking about.

Oh - btw - it does appear from the autopsy report that Igor Dyatlov’s ankles had injuries consistent with being garroted - someone tied his ankles.

Sir, you're "stepping on the same rake again" is a semantic expression. Just so you're clear, I'll get the picture:

(https://b.radikal.ru/b10/2006/75/b7519c44d89et.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b10/2006/75/b7519c44d89e.gif) .

This is because you don't know the nature of the activity you're trying to talk about at all. And you're not the only one. The same medical expert, Eduard Tumanov, does the same thing because he doesn't know the features that come with such travels either. He and I talked about it on TV. I have already written on the same forum:  https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=96.0  response # 9 from 01 April 2018 08:07 AM
It's clear from here that ignorance of what you're talking about is forcing you substitute your speculation for the facts.

Don’t sound like Infrasound to me.

It's only natural. You can only talk about it with more literate and educated people. Who understand much more about what they are talking about it.

They came under attack - human attackers. The next question is “WHO”???

This is the result of your actions: first you created false picture yourself, called it "facts", and then immediately proceed find someone to hang charges on.
It's a method that in our detectives have been prosecuted for, called: "false accusations."
Is that how you work at home, too?

Take care WAG & work on your English- Cheers!

Thank you for tip.
It just won't change the way you show very amateurish approach to this story. You're trying cover up for not being given everything ready and in way that suits you.
I'm not covering up for something I don't understand. There are many different ways understand - dictionaries, textbooks, datasheet... if you wanted understand, then everything would be right.

Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: alecsandros on June 08, 2020, 12:54:51 AM
@WAB
Your arguments are incomplete, to say the least.

For example:

"if someone needs to commit a crime, he must necessarily go to the North Pole for this?"
You avoid the critical aspect of maybe there wasn't a premeditated crime, but an accident that triggered an unfortunate crime and a cover-up.

"1. They didn't know where they were,
2. They didn't know where the tent was
[...]"

How do you know that ? Have you talked to them during the accident ?
[...]
Etc, etc.

I understand that you visited the place and have formed some opinions, but they are not necessarily correct.

Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Monika on June 08, 2020, 02:33:37 AM
Hello, Mr.

Dear Monika !
Perhaps you are trying to confirm my fears that you should not discuss complex and little studied phenomena with people who have very little information about it.
However, I will try explain something to you personally by at least pointing out where you are wrong even in the assumptions and basic physical properties of infrasound (IS).
I have already written about it on this forum. Alas, I have repeat myself, but I understand that it's difficult look through everything because there's lot of written information here.
I'm not sure I'll do the same thing again for someone else unless they have the knowledge of the one I mentioned in my previous article and the phrase I left above.
At first, I wanted talk about the method of building our conversation. You have everything built like the majority: you've all fallen into one pile, you've mixed up facts and concepts and you don't understand small transitions (like halftones in photo).
I'll try to explain it to you on the model. When you make soup, it's not like you put uncut (or washed) food in pot, or try to eat it raw... just like here: You should arrange everything on the shelves (separate from the peel, cut into pieces, put each vegetable in its own time and in certain sequence) without rushing to think and gain knowledge as it is already customary in science (boil, but not digest...), add spices (practical knowledge) and get ready (and delicious) product.
But let us consider everything in order of your questions.

I am willing to believe that infrasound has developed in the place and that it may have influenced the behavior of tourists. They cut the tent in panic and left it. However, why did they go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way.

You're confusing cause and effect. They only went there because they had nowhere else to go and had the strength and ability reach the places where they were found.
Speaking of which, they "go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way." (c) no such information. There is only talk of it and persistent myths. The error of this you will read below. Unfortunately, I do not fully understand your term "quietly", but I will leave it alone for now.

Footprints in the snow show that when they descended, they stood on their feet, no trace of the outline of the body or hand, etc., but only their footprint appeared in the snow. This means that in a dark, extreme cold and high snow, they went upright.

“upright" - what does that apply to? Is it straight line from tent to cedar? No, it's a very mistaken opinion.
1. It's impossible walk in straight line there. If you don't believe me, come to the slope in winter and try it. Anyway, it didn't work out for anyone who was there.
2. They were found in different places not on one straight line, the angle of scattering from the straight line is very large there. Someone has long said about the "straight line", not thinking very well about what it is, and everyone has been repeating it ever since, without thinking or checking it on the spot and on the points. I checked, and it didn't work out...
3. I've talked about footprints, too, and I've talked about them repeatedly. It's such meme, too. The traces were found at relatively long length (I will not go through who and how I said), but the maximum length that could be, it is 380 ... 400 meters. Further on, the zone of snow deposition began (a difference after the third stone ridge) and there the traces could not be found. Next, the tracks had no continuous path, where there were all traces, and even there were relatively long areas where there were no traces. All the photos you saw were 10...20 m and no more. Even if there were 10 of them, it wasn't continuous chain. And even they weren't on the same line. Look at the picture that Mikhail Sharavin drew when he was interviewed about it. There are traces that go at an angle of about 30 degrees towards the cedar. Do you know what the deviation would be if "they were walking in straight line"? Approximately 700 meters. with only two bodies found near the cedar. The others were found elsewhere, on the other side of the straight "tent - cedar".  And you say "organized"...
4. The footprints didn't appear right behind the tent. The minimum distance where they could appear was -25...30 meters. Because right behind the tent there is inflection of the slope and there is much more snow than nearby, so they could not form there - the snow must be well squeezed, and it depends on the thickness. If you don't press the trail on the surface fix snow, the trail won't stay there for long time, even under the conditions that others will stay on better surface.
5. The total number of traces they have calculated only "integrally" - having traced the whole chain (in different places) throughout where the traces were at all. This is possible if there is experienced tracker. Alexey Chernyshov could have done it, he had lot of experience in it.
Do you have enough objections and justification for this in this question?

If they were hit / affected by infrasound, they would not be able to behave so “cold-blooded” and logical. Even when a person is in good mental condition, in the wind and in high snow it is strenuous to maintain balance and not to stumble.

What do you mean by "acting so 'cold-blooded' and logical" (c) ? Who could have determined that? I don't know someone who was there, saw everything and then (survived) told it all? If there is no such person, then do not use other people's fictions...
And about the balance and tripping, you're obviously overreacting with these assumptions. Zina has large abrasion on the lower back, Nicholas Thibault habened through wound of the skull and could not go on his own, almost everyone has skin abrasions and damage to clothing, which can be obtained only on the stones of the third stone ridge or slightly higher. The tailwind and darkness contributed greatly to this. There were only very small number of places where you could get abrasions, but not as much injury as Thibault. Maybe you know place like this and you can tell me where it is.

Their cold-bloodedness also manifested itself in the forest, where they were able to build a campfire and a den.
This theory would apply only if the infrasound maintained only at the tents and in close proximity.

You have very vague ideas about infrasound and its properties. Why do you think it was only in the tent? It's very large area where the sound wave exists and can't "break" and fade from distance. For example, it can be changed by reflection or diffraction from other small objects that it envelops. I do not know where you get these properties from, but they have nothing to do with the real IS properties. At sea, this kind of sound wave extends over many hundreds of kilometres. But to do that, you have have many almost identical sea wave troughs. Here it does not exist, but the wave propagation in forestless zone (or above the trees) may well be many tens of kilometers with gradual and small fading.

But the footprints of the tourists appear relative near the tent.

No, it's not, but I wrote little higher about it.

The infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. That would have to be an incredible coincidence.

Once again, this is false idea of such waves. The attenuation depends on the length of the sound wave, according to the principle: the longer the wave, the smaller the attenuation value. I do not understand, where did you get the information about IS properties?

But yes, I am also a supporter of the theory that the whole event was triggered by some natural phenomenon, perhaps very rare and not yet explored by humans.

Your position is clear and I can support it, but, unfortunately, your knowledge level about IS properties and it characteristics is very low. Perhaps this is the reason why you do not want accept this phenomenon as the cause of events.
Would you like to cite something as an alternative to this phenomenon?

What I miss in Eichar's book are serious surveys from doctors about the effect of infrasound on people, Eichar did not take their opinions into account at all, he did not address any doctor. He focused only on the physical side of things. For this reason, his book, and therefore his theory, is only speculation, just like other theories.

You want lot of things... He almost accidentally found Dr. Bernard at NOAA. I thought that when he was coming back to America from Ekaterinburg, and was in Moscow only one day, I would be able introduce him and get good consultation from Professor Valery Gordienko from Moscow State Lomonosov University. But Gordienko was not in Moscow in that day and he could not get it.
So let's count how many people in the world deal with such acoustic problems. The very physics of this phenomenon is engaged in: 2 people in Russia, 3 people in the USA (one in them is from Russia), let's say 10 more countries (this is when they were engaged in development of non-lethal weapon) + 15...20. Practically that's all. I take only the right level of researchers and those who are engaged in aeronautics of ultra-low frequencies. There are many others who deal with ultra-low-frequency waves in the sea (here the needs are much greater from military sailors), but these are specialists of different profile. Around as if someone were doing conductors, against semiconductors or dielectrics. Do you understand my comparison?
Specialists of different profile are not suitable for us.
We got about 30 people in total. All over the world!
There are even fewer physicians and physiologists. There's no systematic or in-depth research. Do you know why? Because you won't get a commercial product as result.
I don't take those who write safety instructions that say IS exists, it can be dangerous and you should avoid frequencies below 16 Hertz. This is more about vibrations, but they know something about aeroacoustics, if anything, it's just the name itself.
That's why he didn't give these opinions. That he just hasn't found someone who knows something about it well.
By the way, I was deeply impressed by one objection to me after the publication of article in the newspaper "Komsomolskaya Pravda" from medical doctor with scientific degree. The article with my interview was organized by the newspaper itself. He said that all this is possible, but it's not infrasound, but change in pressure. "Wonderful" medical doctors know physics... :))) A sound wave is what? Is it not pressure change (fluctuation)? They teach it even in usual school.

Now I say resume: in order speak on this subject you need know the subject of the conversation well. It is not your fault, it is the trouble of everyone who thinks that simple methods can solve complex and poorly studied issues.
Much, on which you have built questions, arose only on the basis of outside conversations, which does not stand even small check on the validity. That is, again, there is construction of conclusions on the unreliable information. It turns out that you can not only get reliable conclusions, but also understand what should follow.

I am sorry, but the whole problem between us is probably in linguistic misunderstanding. dunno1

to clarify my sentences I wrote before:
to go upright I didn't mean to go straight in one line. It means walking to my feet without tripping and falling to the ground. The contours of the bodies were not found in the snow, only the contours of the feet. What I think is impossible if I'm affected by infrasound and mentally disoriented. And certainly in a disoriented state I will not be able to build a fire or build a den - this requires a certain "cold-bloodedness and logical action".

Zina has a large abrasion on the lower back, but it could only have occurred during her journey back towards the tent.

Yes, it's a very large area where the infrasound wave exists and that's why it wasn't the cause of this tragedy. They were no longer disoriented in the forest.

I did not mean saying that the infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. It is absolutely clear to me that infrasound has a long-range effect over long distances. And that is why I rule out the theory of infrasound as the cause of that misfortune.

And again, I miss the extensive scientific and clinical study on the effects of infrasound on human behavior and under the same conditions as had the Dyatlov´s. Without proper verification of the effect of infrasound on a larger number of people / subjects in the same conditions as tourists had, the whole theory is only speculation. (I work in research as a researcher, as part of my work I sometimes evaluate projects of a medical nature and I know how important and necessary clinical studies directly on people are).

Finally, one note:
You wrote to hoosiergose: „I get the impression that you stubbornly do not want to understand something, but want to push your understanding at any cost, or unreasonably discredit what others offer“.
I hope you are not be offended, but I have the impression that it is you who discredit all the opinions from other contributors of this forum.

I really appreciate your knowledge in the field of physics, rocket engineering  good-posting, but you do not judge things from another point of view, e.g. medicine, psychology, etc.

Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: alecsandros on June 08, 2020, 03:27:09 AM
"We may never really know what happened":

according to this article: https://lenta.ru/news/2017/02/09/topsecret/ ,
former governor of Sverdlovsk Region said that the Dyatlov Incident is still classified as "top secret".
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: PJ on June 08, 2020, 08:05:51 AM
This statement of yours once again confirms that you are completely unaware of the conditions and invent fantastic fables.
They couldn't go back to the tent for other reasons:
1. They didn't know where they were,
2. They didn't know where the tent was,
3. They didn't know the distance, and they didn't know the direction to the tent very well.
4. They didn't have any guidance that could help them at that time.
5. The weather and conditions interfered with them: darkness and backwind.
Woow, that's really blow my mind  twitch7 I didn't consider this option but even from my own experience I know it is quite possible.
It was dark night(moon rise was at 3am), from last photos is clear that the weather wasn't good is very possible that after walking 40-50m from the tent they was not able to return to it.
It will explain why they climbed the Cedar and remove the branches: trying to locate the tent when weather improved and moon rise.
The very weak point of this theory is that all the footprints shows a straight walk down, if they will be lost for sure will be walking around for a bit and trying to locate the tent before giving up.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: MDGross on June 08, 2020, 08:59:18 AM
My interpretation of WAB's thorough and professional work on the DPI is this:
Why add layers of complexity to events that can be explained by natural phenomenon?
First, the hikers exited the tent from the effects of infrasound, which studies have found can cause uneasiness, nervousness, even panic.
Second, the head injuries on a couple of the hikers was caused by falling with sufficient force onto rocks as they walked/stumbled down the slope. Rib injuries to Dubinina and Zolotaryov and skull fracture of Thibeaux-Brignolle caused by striking rocks when they fell into the ravine.

Certainly, this is a straight-forward scenario and doesn't involve the intervention by others (KGB) or things such as UFOs, ball lightening, missile explosions and so forth.
Is it truly what happened? No theory or scenario, including WAB's or anyone else's, offers indisputable proof.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: alecsandros on June 08, 2020, 09:37:13 AM
Why add layers of complexity to events that can be explained by natural phenomenon?
First, the hikers exited the tent from the effects of infrasound, which studies have found can cause uneasiness, nervousness, even panic.
Where is proof of such a claim ?
Why aren't there other accounts of mountaineers experiencing mass panic on that mountain or on other mountains whatsoever ?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: alecsandros on June 08, 2020, 09:40:34 AM
Rib injuries to Dubinina and Zolotaryov and skull fracture of Thibeaux-Brignolle caused by striking rocks when they fell into the ravine.
Problem is that anatomists studying the autopsy reports of Lyubidina and "Zolotaryov" said that such (extreme) rib injuries couldn't have come from a fall of 4-5meters (as they experienced), but were more likely to be obtained during a car crash or during a bomb explosion. As for Thibeaux-Brignolle, he couldn't have stricken rocks on both sides of his head at the same time...
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Tony on June 08, 2020, 04:06:57 PM
Those injuries cannot be attributable to infrasound.

The infrasound theory was developed by Donnie Eichar and is thoroughly detailed in his book 'Dead Mountain.' In it, the infrasound/karman vortex street event is only responsible for the hikers leaving the tent and descending the slope. The injuries at the ravine were not caused by infrasound. Instead, they were caused by a fall into the ravine. All this is explained in the book. While I don't agree with the infrasound theory I highly recommend 'Dead Mountain.'

Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Tony on June 08, 2020, 04:18:25 PM
This statement of yours once again confirms that you are completely unaware of the conditions and invent fantastic fables.
They couldn't go back to the tent for other reasons:
1. They didn't know where they were,
2. They didn't know where the tent was,
3. They didn't know the distance, and they didn't know the direction to the tent very well.
4. They didn't have any guidance that could help them at that time.
5. The weather and conditions interfered with them: darkness and backwind.
Woow, that's really blow my mind  twitch7 I didn't consider this option but even from my own experience I know it is quite possible.
It was dark night(moon rise was at 3am), from last photos is clear that the weather wasn't good is very possible that after walking 40-50m from the tent they was not able to return to it.
It will explain why they climbed the Cedar and remove the branches: trying to locate the tent when weather improved and moon rise.
The very weak point of this theory is that all the footprints shows a straight walk down, if they will be lost for sure will be walking around for a bit and trying to locate the tent before giving up.

I have always heard that the moon rise was at 3am until I recently downloaded a moon phase app. In it it shows that on the night of Feb 1st that the moon rise was at 11:39am and it set at 12:52am and was at 38%. Of course this could be wrong, but I've never seen a official report of the moon rise and set on that night in the Ural Mountains. Could someone clarify?

Recently, I was in the mountains during a no moon phase and it was completely dark - couldn't see a thing. If there was no moon that night, it would have been by absolute chance that they happened upon the cedar.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Star man on June 08, 2020, 04:34:11 PM
WAB's theory is certainly credible and simple in that it does not call on anything that is not normally present on the mountain.  I am not so convinced about the reason they left the tent though.   That's the bit I struggle with.  They were all experienced hikers.  If some of the group were feeling nervous, frightened or panicky due to infrasound I would think those that had not been affected would try to reassure the others?  The wind can make some strange sounds in the audible range too,   The hikers knew how important their shelter was.  It was their life boat.  If you were in a life boat at sea in a storm and the wind generated infrasound, could it affect people so  badly that they thought it would be better to jump into the sea and leave their life boat behind?

I think that after they left the tent then the rest could be as WAB describes.  It's a good theory.

Saying that,  I cant argue too much about rationality as I investigate the possibility of a Yeti  twitch7

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: PJ on June 08, 2020, 10:38:14 PM
I have always heard that the moon rise was at 3am until I recently downloaded a moon phase app. In it it shows that on the night of Feb 1st that the moon rise was at 11:39am and it set at 12:52am and was at 38%. Of course this could be wrong, but I've never seen a official report of the moon rise and set on that night in the Ural Mountains. Could someone clarify?

Recently, I was in the mountains during a no moon phase and it was completely dark - couldn't see a thing. If there was no moon that night, it would have been by absolute chance that they happened upon the cedar.

On 31st January 1959 the Moon was in the Third Quarter, it mean that it rise during the second part of the night, after midnight.
Maybe your app shows the Moon rise time in your local time?

And yeah, I agree with Star Man and WAB that all the injuries could happens in "natural" way as a results of different incidents on the way down and around Cedar/Ravine. The problem is why they left the tent. In my opinion the infrasound theory sounds impossible. Must be something different.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Nigel Evans on June 09, 2020, 02:43:04 AM
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 09, 2020, 03:31:35 AM
Regarding the trip to the cedar and the injuries at the ravine, I have a number of questions (as usual). 

1) How did they find their way to the cedar?  If there was very little to no moon, they probably could not even see their hand in front of their face.  I know  of what I speak.
2) Why would Alexander lay down and die when he was supposed to have very few injuries and supposedly no serious ones?
3) How is it that they would think to take a flashlight with them but forget to put on warm clothes? 
4) How is it that the four in the ravine didn't have frost bite and the others did?  Didn't the rav4 help build it and if not why? bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Tony on June 09, 2020, 09:43:58 AM
I have always heard that the moon rise was at 3am until I recently downloaded a moon phase app. In it it shows that on the night of Feb 1st that the moon rise was at 11:39am and it set at 12:52am and was at 38%. Of course this could be wrong, but I've never seen a official report of the moon rise and set on that night in the Ural Mountains. Could someone clarify?

Recently, I was in the mountains during a no moon phase and it was completely dark - couldn't see a thing. If there was no moon that night, it would have been by absolute chance that they happened upon the cedar.

On 31st January 1959 the Moon was in the Third Quarter, it mean that it rise during the second part of the night, after midnight.
Maybe your app shows the Moon rise time in your local time?

And yeah, I agree with Star Man and WAB that all the injuries could happens in "natural" way as a results of different incidents on the way down and around Cedar/Ravine. The problem is why they left the tent. In my opinion the infrasound theory sounds impossible. Must be something different.

This site shows that on February 1st in the Ural Mountains that the moon rose at 9:28 am and set early on February 2nd at 12:16 am:

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/@1488441?month=2&year=2020

This one for Vizhay is showing that it rose at 11:38 am on the 1st and set at 2:07 am on the 2nd:

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/@829035?month=2&year=2020

These are all year 2020 which would be the same for 1959. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong but where does it show that the moon rose after midnight that night?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: PJ on June 09, 2020, 11:00:47 AM
This site shows that on February 1st in the Ural Mountains that the moon rose at 9:28 am and set early on February 2nd at 12:16 am:

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/@1488441?month=2&year=2020

This one for Vizhay is showing that it rose at 11:38 am on the 1st and set at 2:07 am on the 2nd:

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/@829035?month=2&year=2020

These are all year 2020 which would be the same for 1959. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong but where does it show that the moon rose after midnight that night?

How do you check it? for me it shows that 1st February 1959 in Vizhay the Moon rise was at 2:40am
(http://webdesignstudio.ie/images/moonrise.jpg)
* All times are local time for Vizhay.

Why do you think that in 2020 and in 1959 should be the same time of Moon rise everyday? Of course it will not be the same.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: PJ on June 09, 2020, 11:57:32 AM
Regarding the trip to the cedar and the injuries at the ravine, I have a number of questions (as usual). 

1) How did they find their way to the cedar?  If there was very little to no moon, they probably could not even see their hand in front of their face.  I know  of what I speak.
2) Why would Alexander lay down and die when he was supposed to have very few injuries and supposedly no serious ones?
3) How is it that they would think to take a flashlight with them but forget to put on warm clothes? 
4) How is it that the four in the ravine didn't have frost bite and the others did?  Didn't the rav4 help build it and if not why? bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1

1. They was just walking down, once the terrain get more flat, close to the forest they could spot the Cedar contour on the skyline. It was one of the highest trees there so it was possible to see it on the sky even during very dark night. This is why they walk to it: high tree gives some sense of protection/shelter, wood for fire.
2. Probably the 4 in ravine die the last, and Aleksander as the one with not much injuries could be the last one. So all was already dead, he was exhausted, not sleeping for number of hours,  without any hope to be rescued. He just lay down, felt asleep and never wake up.
3. I think nobody knows the answer, sorry.
4.Only 3 of them had frostbites: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, and Kolmogorova. Generally to get frostbites you have to first freeze and after rewarm body part. To get serious frostbites in short period of time you must get very deep freeze and rewarm it very fast too(close to heat source like fire) so looks like that only this three exposed hands and ears during the way down badly enough to get the 3rd and 4th degree frostbites in a short time after rewarm at the fire. The others for sure had some frostbites too but it takes long time to see it. They die before the frostbites show up or even never rewarm the frozen body parts.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Tony on June 09, 2020, 12:03:20 PM
This site shows that on February 1st in the Ural Mountains that the moon rose at 9:28 am and set early on February 2nd at 12:16 am:

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/@1488441?month=2&year=2020

This one for Vizhay is showing that it rose at 11:38 am on the 1st and set at 2:07 am on the 2nd:

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/@829035?month=2&year=2020

These are all year 2020 which would be the same for 1959. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong but where does it show that the moon rose after midnight that night?

How do you check it? for me it shows that 1st February 1959 in Vizhay the Moon rise was at 2:40am
(http://webdesignstudio.ie/images/moonrise.jpg)
* All times are local time for Vizhay.

Why do you think that in 2020 and in 1959 should be the same time of Moon rise everyday? Of course it will not be the same.

Yes, you're right. Wasn't thinking and didn't take into account the year and how the moon rotates around the earth. If this is the case, then it seems almost more strange that they wouldn't have been able to see the forest area until they were in it. I know they found a spent flashlight further down the slope but it wouldn't have helped much and, after it burned out, they wouldn't have been able to see anything. Why did they climb the cedar? Without the moon they would not have been able to see even a few feet in front of them. Unless they reached the cedar much later than we think and they were still after the moon rise.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sarapuk on June 09, 2020, 02:55:29 PM
@ Sarapuk -I serious doubt it - unless there is a document hidden away by the Soviet Govt that suddenly comes to light - this enigma will probably never be solved. There are well over 70 so called theories and counting. And honestly how can we expect archeology solve this mystery? Hmmmm?
If they do a dig there, what could they really possibly hope to find? What ? A note saying - Help- the mansi got us - Please give me a break Sir. SMH
I enjoy reading the comments on this blog and find some of the comments very amusing  - but I honestly see mostly bizarre & confounding statements & misleading conjecture and very little in the way of a viable plausible solution to what really happened to the Dyatlov Hikers.

Well I didnt actually mean that Archaeologists will help to solve this Dyatlov Mystery.  Iam just saying that stuff comes to light even after a very long time.  The fact that we are here using this Forum proves that.  And Teddys great Website is full of stuff that has come to light since the fall of the USSR.  There may well be Documents hidden away.  It doesnt mean that they will remain hidden for ever.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Star man on June 09, 2020, 05:29:43 PM
Regarding the trip to the cedar and the injuries at the ravine, I have a number of questions (as usual). 

1) How did they find their way to the cedar?  If there was very little to no moon, they probably could not even see their hand in front of their face.  I know  of what I speak.
2) Why would Alexander lay down and die when he was supposed to have very few injuries and supposedly no serious ones?
3) How is it that they would think to take a flashlight with them but forget to put on warm clothes? 
4) How is it that the four in the ravine didn't have frost bite and the others did?  Didn't the rav4 help build it and if not why? bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1

1. They was just walking down, once the terrain get more flat, close to the forest they could spot the Cedar contour on the skyline. It was one of the highest trees there so it was possible to see it on the sky even during very dark night. This is why they walk to it: high tree gives some sense of protection/shelter, wood for fire.
2. Probably the 4 in ravine die the last, and Aleksander as the one with not much injuries could be the last one. So all was already dead, he was exhausted, not sleeping for number of hours,  without any hope to be rescued. He just lay down, felt asleep and never wake up.
3. I think nobody knows the answer, sorry.
4.Only 3 of them had frostbites: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, and Kolmogorova. Generally to get frostbites you have to first freeze and after rewarm body part. To get serious frostbites in short period of time you must get very deep freeze and rewarm it very fast too(close to heat source like fire) so looks like that only this three exposed hands and ears during the way down badly enough to get the 3rd and 4th degree frostbites in a short time after rewarm at the fire. The others for sure had some frostbites too but it takes long time to see it. They die before the frostbites show up or even never rewarm the frozen body parts.

3.  One possibility is that the person who took the flashlight was already outside when they fled the tent.  He/she already had the flashlight with them.  Thibo and Semyon were likely on watch duty.  Maybe they both went outside.  Some thing "the thing" that made them fled happened while they outside with flashlight in hand.  The other flashlight may have been on the tent.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Monika on June 09, 2020, 10:54:21 PM
We are unable to answer the question of whether they had trouble finding their way to the forest or finding their way back to the tent. Because we don't know the time when they left the tent. They died 5-8 hours after the last meal, but here the question arises, it was dinner (1.2.) or early breakfast (2.2)? If it was just after breakfast, there was already some visibility / twilight outside.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 10, 2020, 03:01:22 AM
Thanks PJ and Starman.  1) I think they must have had some daylight or they could NOT have done everything they supposedly did.  When it is pitch black, everything is done by feel alone. 2) Regarding Alexander  ( if he was the last one to die), He was young and fit, the tent was still standing and he could have gone back to it at some point and he could have taken valenki (and more) from Simon and Nickolas.  3)  I don't think Simon and Nickolas were "on watch".  Somewhere on this forum, it was stated  that they didn't need watchmen ( outside of the tent).  They would have only needed watchmen to watch their property while they were stuck in a train station (for example) or to watch the stove while it was burning (which it wasn't that night).  4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.  If the water was not frozen,  then how is it that she and Nickolas didn't drown (their faces were in the water).  I read about the unfrozen stream  somewhere on this forum also. ( There is so much information on this forum it is hard to keep track of it all.  THANKS TEDDY.)

I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me how (or tell me about a site) hypothermia and frostbite come to be and its progress.  I have looked online and could not find what I thought was a good site.  I think someone once may have posted a site but I could not find that either. Thanks.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: alecsandros on June 10, 2020, 03:09:59 AM
Thanks PJ and Starman.  1) I think they must have had some daylight or they could NOT have done everything they supposedly did.  When it is pitch black, everything is done by feel alone.
Or perhaps they had flashlights, but they disappeared from the scene (just as several cameras and films had).
Quote
2) Regarding Alexander  ( if he was the last one to die), He was young and fit, the tent was still standing and he could have gone back to it at some point and he could have taken valenki (and more) from Simon and Nickolas.
From what I understand from the autopsy report, he had his neck "deformed" and an open wound behind his ear. Doesn't seem uninjured to me.

Quote
  3)  I don't think Simon and Nickolas were "on watch".  Somewhere on this forum, it was stated  that they didn't need watchmen ( outside of the tent).  They would have only needed watchmen to watch their property while they were stuck in a train station (for example) or to watch the stove while it was burning (which it wasn't that night).
The fact that they were significantly better dressed then the others suggests they were planning to stay outside for some time. Why ? Keeping watch is a possible explanation. After all, the emplacement of the tent high on the barren slope (instead of at the forest's edge) is curious in itself. Perhaps they were trying to have a good vantage point (strategic) to protect themselves from someone/something - case in which keeping watch is mandatory.

Quote
  4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.  If the water was not frozen,  then how is it that she and Nickolas didn't drown (their faces were in the water).  I read about the unfrozen stream  somewhere on this forum also. ( There is so much information on this forum it is hard to keep track of it all.  THANKS TEDDY.)
It's more likely they were already dead when they fell into the ravine...
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Monika on June 10, 2020, 03:31:57 AM
Thanks PJ and Starman.  1) I think they must have had some daylight or they could NOT have done everything they supposedly did.  When it is pitch black, everything is done by feel alone. 2) Regarding Alexander  ( if he was the last one to die), He was young and fit, the tent was still standing and he could have gone back to it at some point and he could have taken valenki (and more) from Simon and Nickolas.  3)  I don't think Simon and Nickolas were "on watch".  Somewhere on this forum, it was stated  that they didn't need watchmen ( outside of the tent).  They would have only needed watchmen to watch their property while they were stuck in a train station (for example) or to watch the stove while it was burning (which it wasn't that night).  4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.  If the water was not frozen,  then how is it that she and Nickolas didn't drown (their faces were in the water).  I read about the unfrozen stream  somewhere on this forum also. ( There is so much information on this forum it is hard to keep track of it all.  THANKS TEDDY.)

I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me how (or tell me about a site) hypothermia and frostbite come to be and its progress.  I have looked online and could not find what I thought was a good site.  I think someone once may have posted a site but I could not find that either. Thanks.

Regarding to 4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.

If you look at the picture -  3D model of the ravine by Vasilii Zyadik (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1822311798064754&type=3), it is clear that all four were lying next to each other, and when the snow began to melt and the bodies fell into the stream of creek, Lyuda's body turned by 90º due to melting and the flow of water.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sparrow on June 10, 2020, 05:22:38 AM
Hi Monika.  The people that claim the rav4 died where they landed because the injuries matched some of the rocks they were laying on,cannot have it both ways.  She died where she landed and she was washed to where she was found.  It has to be one or the other but not both. lalala1
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: RidgeWatcher on June 10, 2020, 11:36:00 AM
Thank you WAB,

I was amazed to hear you talk about the early online forum connected with  travel site, I think I may have known this site as "Ermak TraveL" correct me if I am wrong. I posted on this site a lot. It was my introduction to the Dyatlov Pass Incident, and mystery.


Your quote: "Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass".

I have many questions but about your post which is very interesting and informative.

I spoke with my father about Russian Missiles and Rockets in 1959, he worked in Navigation and Guidance on missiles and rockets, particularly the gyroscope technology, which as you know is all done by lasers today. He said that Russian rocketry and missile guidance was very advanced at that time, as much as he heard about it. He mentioned what was probably the best missile system at that time being made by the Russians. He also said that the finances, work, time and precision parts it took to manufacture a missile or rocket was not inexpensive. He said neither the Russians or the Americans would just shoot them randomly over the Urals or New Mexico or the South Pacific.

WAB,

1) In your opinion, do you think that a rocket or missile or some other projectile fell on Kholat Syakhl that night?

2) Why have you gone to Dyatlov Pass so many times? Are you working on a present theory?

3) What is your opinion on whether the Dyatlov Pass Incident will ever be solved?


Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Tony on June 10, 2020, 02:11:01 PM
Thanks PJ and Starman.  1) I think they must have had some daylight or they could NOT have done everything they supposedly did.  When it is pitch black, everything is done by feel alone. 2) Regarding Alexander  ( if he was the last one to die), He was young and fit, the tent was still standing and he could have gone back to it at some point and he could have taken valenki (and more) from Simon and Nickolas.  3)  I don't think Simon and Nickolas were "on watch".  Somewhere on this forum, it was stated  that they didn't need watchmen ( outside of the tent).  They would have only needed watchmen to watch their property while they were stuck in a train station (for example) or to watch the stove while it was burning (which it wasn't that night).  4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.  If the water was not frozen,  then how is it that she and Nickolas didn't drown (their faces were in the water).  I read about the unfrozen stream  somewhere on this forum also. ( There is so much information on this forum it is hard to keep track of it all.  THANKS TEDDY.)

I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me how (or tell me about a site) hypothermia and frostbite come to be and its progress.  I have looked online and could not find what I thought was a good site.  I think someone once may have posted a site but I could not find that either. Thanks.

Regarding to 4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.

If you look at the picture -  3D model of the ravine by Vasilii Zyadik (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1822311798064754&type=3), it is clear that all four were lying next to each other, and when the snow began to melt and the bodies fell into the stream of creek, Lyuda's body turned by 90º due to melting and the flow of water.

Per the autopsy reports it is likely that both Lyuda and Sasha were both alive and somewhat mobile a moderate amount of time after their injuries. It is possible that she moved herself to that area or, that the snow melt (stream) caused a position change or, that someone moved her i.e. Kovlevatov.

Although the fall theory has many problems it has the least amount of problems and is the most likely cause of the injuries at the ravine.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Star man on June 10, 2020, 05:18:23 PM
Thanks PJ and Starman.  1) I think they must have had some daylight or they could NOT have done everything they supposedly did.  When it is pitch black, everything is done by feel alone. 2) Regarding Alexander  ( if he was the last one to die), He was young and fit, the tent was still standing and he could have gone back to it at some point and he could have taken valenki (and more) from Simon and Nickolas.  3)  I don't think Simon and Nickolas were "on watch".  Somewhere on this forum, it was stated  that they didn't need watchmen ( outside of the tent).  They would have only needed watchmen to watch their property while they were stuck in a train station (for example) or to watch the stove while it was burning (which it wasn't that night).  4) If the rav4 supposedly fell into the ravine and died where they lay, could someone   please explain to me how Lyuda fell facing one direction and hit full force facing another and also further away than the others.  If the water was not frozen,  then how is it that she and Nickolas didn't drown (their faces were in the water).  I read about the unfrozen stream  somewhere on this forum also. ( There is so much information on this forum it is hard to keep track of it all.  THANKS TEDDY.)

I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me how (or tell me about a site) hypothermia and frostbite come to be and its progress.  I have looked online and could not find what I thought was a good site.  I think someone once may have posted a site but I could not find that either. Thanks.

I think they must have had some visibility but it was probably limited.  I dont think it was day.  The camp was set up fairly late and the flashlights indicate it was dark.

I think Kolevatov died of exhaustion and the cold, but there are lots of opinions and speculation here, 

The best place to start any research is via the case files and information that Teddy has compiled. 

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 12:15:26 PM
Those injuries cannot be attributable to infrasound.

The infrasound theory was developed by Donnie Eichar and is thoroughly detailed in his book 'Dead Mountain.'

Yes, except I can't say that he developed that theory himself. I counseled him, and I told him a lot. If you've read this book, there are many references to me.
Unfortunately, I couldn't explain to him several separate but important details of the phenomenon.
For example, he writes about tornado vortexes near the tent, but it never happens there. The role of the amplifier, to create power like a tornado, is the terrain there, which is located next to it. Does in book say anything about that?

In it, the infrasound/karman vortex street event is only responsible for the hikers leaving the tent and descending the slope. The injuries at the ravine were not caused by infrasound. Instead, they were caused by a fall into the ravine. All this is explained in the book. While I don't agree with the infrasound theory I highly recommend 'Dead Mountain.'

This is exactly what I told him in detail in Ekaterinburg and in the subsequent (1.5 years before the book was published) large correspondence. And a lot was shown to him on the spot when on 06 March 2012 we went to the pass. I do not remember why, then the weather was not very good, I did not say where the relief features, which should be the most important, but in correspondence we discussed it lot.
You have correctly pointed out the main and main stages of the incident itself here.
A bit earlier I wrote almost the same thing, but some readers of the forum did not understand it.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 12:19:00 PM
My interpretation of WAB's thorough and professional work on the DPI is this:
Why add layers of complexity to events that can be explained by natural phenomenon?
First, the hikers exited the tent from the effects of infrasound, which studies have found can cause uneasiness, nervousness, even panic.
Second, the head injuries on a couple of the hikers was caused by falling with sufficient force onto rocks as they walked/stumbled down the slope. Rib injuries to Dubinina and Zolotaryov and skull fracture of Thibeaux-Brignolle caused by striking rocks when they fell into the ravine.

Certainly, this is a straight-forward scenario and doesn't involve the intervention by others (KGB) or things such as UFOs, ball lightening, missile explosions and so forth.
Is it truly what happened? No theory or scenario, including WAB's or anyone else's, offers indisputable proof.

Thank you for your opinion, it is very correct and competent. I would especially highlight your last phrase:

"No theory or script, including the WAB or anyone else's, provides conclusive evidence."

Once again, thank you so much.
William S. Maugham said well about the evidence and its perception.: "Even in the Bible you can find praise for the devil." ©
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 12:24:05 PM
This statement of yours once again confirms that you are completely unaware of the conditions and invent fantastic fables.
They couldn't go back to the tent for other reasons:
1. They didn't know where they were,
2. They didn't know where the tent was,
3. They didn't know the distance, and they didn't know the direction to the tent very well.
4. They didn't have any guidance that could help them at that time.
5. The weather and conditions interfered with them: darkness and backwind.
Woow, that's really blow my mind  twitch7 I didn't consider this option but even from my own experience I know it is quite possible.
It was dark night(moon rise was at 3am), from last photos is clear that the weather wasn't good is very possible that after walking 40-50m from the tent they was not able to return to it.

You're all very correct. If I wasn't sure it was you who wrote it, I would consider it the quote (or paraphrase) from my earlier messages.

It will explain why they climbed the Cedar and remove the branches: trying to locate the tent when weather improved and moon rise.

No, they climbed to the cedar for another reason. You just can't see much from there, especially at night. They had terrible heat deficit and they needed fire. But there was no firewood anywhere closer, and they couldn't go any further, because it was deep snow and they needed skis that they didn't have then.

The very weak point of this theory is that all the footprints shows a straight walk down, if they will be lost for sure will be walking around for a bit and trying to locate the tent before giving up.

I already wrote about the tracks. There was no continuous chain of footprints. If there was snow with blizzard, they were inconspicuous for hikers. Besides, it's very difficult to go towards the wind and look for weak manifestations of footprints.
You can see from the photos that wind and snow were available. In the dark, the contrast of such detection is extremely low.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 12:37:51 PM

I am sorry, but the whole problem between us is probably in linguistic misunderstanding. dunno1

Yeah, it's possible. But if you want to figure it out, I don't see a problem here. There is a method-- a method of sequential approximation.

to clarify my sentences I wrote before:
to go upright I didn't mean to go straight in one line. It means walking to my feet without tripping and falling to the ground.

It's good thing we found out. It's also very unlikely in this place under those conditions. Even in better conditions, in the daytime, when you can see everything and you know where you can't go. Even if you have boots on your feet, or special shoes. There is a slight slope everywhere and the snow surface is hard crust. The feet are constantly sliding, so you have to either keep your feet supported with ski sticks or walk in a small step, very carefully choosing the path. See how Shura walked in the afternoon in our 2014 experiment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAuxkkISqmI&t=567s . Note how he walked finely with his legs. I remind you that it was the afternoon and he knew very well where and how to go. And he knew where not go to it. In the conditions of that case, when there was a Dyatlov group, it was impossible walk like that (dark, stressful condition, many do not have shoes, valenki slide even more than foot only in one sock). It was impossible not fall in such conditions. A more stable position could be maintained only below the third stone ridge, when the snow started get deeper (10 ... 20 cm and more) and the slope became even softer. And it was in conditions when person could see something around him. If there was small dump ( small steeper section), the bangs are 99% more likely fall.

The contours of the bodies were not found in the snow, only the contours of the feet.


1. Falls was occurred mainly in rocky ridges, where there was no substrate nast (thin crust of ice over snow), which is required to form such traces.
2. Body pressure on loose snow in this case is low much (at least by an order of magnitude) less than when man steps to snow print of foot. Pressure is the main factor for the formation of traces.

What I think is impossible if I'm affected by infrasound and mentally disoriented. And certainly in a disoriented state I will not be able to build a fire or build a den - this requires a certain "cold-bloodedness and logical action".

I've written about this before, but I'll say it again, but this will be the last time.
The stages of human exposure to infrasound at resonance with dangerous frequencies of brain biorhythms:
1. Collect the necessary cumulative dose of exposure, constantly feeling strange sensations and hidden dangers.
2. Get "anchor" signal, which will be the final event in increasing brain excitation ("last drop").

Zina has a large abrasion on the lower back, but it could only have occurred during her journey back towards the tent.

That's a very interesting consideration?  grin1 I'm surprised that when you move up, it's better opportunity than when you move down. When you move down, gravity of the ground adds damage forces, when you move up, then gravity of the ground reduces damage forces. Where's your logic in here?
On the way from the cedar to the place where it was found, there are no places where it can be damaged, and from the tent down to the place where it was found, it can only be reduced, but still more than enough.

Yes, it's a very large area where the infrasound wave exists and that's why it wasn't the cause of this tragedy. They were no longer disoriented in the forest.

That's how it turns out. If you know what relaxation is and what helps, then this is where the answer is for you.

I did not mean saying that the infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. It is absolutely clear to me that infrasound has a long-range effect over long distances. And that is why I rule out the theory of infrasound as the cause of that misfortune.

I don't understand why it has operate at long distance and not at short distance. If there are no obstacles, it is like normal wave, fades in the proportions of the second degree. Only the attenuation coefficient for bass is lower than for higher frequencies.

And again, I miss the extensive scientific and clinical study on the effects of infrasound on human behavior and under the same conditions as had the Dyatlov´s. Without proper verification of the effect of infrasound on a larger number of people / subjects in the same conditions as tourists had, the whole theory is only speculation. (I work in research as a researcher, as part of my work I sometimes evaluate projects of a medical nature and I know how important and necessary clinical studies directly on people are).

No one can stop you from doing such research. On your own. It's the only thing you'll have find your own money for. And it's going take lot money. Besides, you'll need find enough qualified specialists that no university has yet prepared. Because no one will spend money on something that will have no commercial effect.
Although there is already lot of applied research, but it is scattered and many of it is not published in wide print. They are in different countries and at different firms. Even if they exist, they exist in different languages and have not been translated into other languages. And they haven't been put on the Internet. Because many firms and people don't have that need. I'm talking about what I know myself, but I'm sure there are many more in other places.

Finally, one note:
You wrote to hoosiergose: „I get the impression that you stubbornly do not want to understand something, but want to push your understanding at any cost, or unreasonably discredit what others offer“.
I hope you are not be offended, but I have the impression that it is you who discredit all the opinions from other contributors of this forum.

What do you call this term?
When a person operates with inaccurate (and therefore false) information and has been instructed to do so?
Or when he first talks about logic and immediately makes illogical conclusions? Has he been instructed to do so again?
I do not get reasonable arguments from those who try to discredit what I have researched in practice and have theoretical developments. And people want to seem knowledgeable, but in reality they do not even know the basics of what they are trying to talk about. I tell them exactly what I think about them. So it's up to you to decide how you can "discredit" the wrong opinion. It's either right or wrong, the other is out. So you have to be straight about it. It's only argued, which is what I do.

I really appreciate your knowledge in the field of physics, rocket engineering  good-posting, but you do not judge things from another point of view, e.g. medicine, psychology, etc.

Well, why not? If the questions are about injuries, I was engaged in biomechanics and we have studied all aspects of anatomy and pathology that we need well with the help and participation of leading specialists in medicine of our country. We have added physics and mathematics to this, which makes it possible to calculate injuries under the conditions given. I do not understand why it is bad? The result of our work is the development of safety and rescue equipment for aviation and spacecraft, and it is very difficult to find analogues for our developments. Moreover, there are very few competitors who can make a similar product (1...2...3). And here too, all our developments cannot be "found on the Internet".
I am not going speculate on how treat corona-virus or oncology. Although I already know lot about oncology.
As for psychology, I was specially engaged in these studies (in the same areas), before I started biomechanics. For example, we studied the processes in memory, get chance evaluate the "operator" fatigue. There, we needed to know lot of applied psychology. In addition, I made lot of observations in many travels. How person (different people) behaves in such conditions I know well in practice. Unlike many here who object to me and who only "lie on the sofa".
There are people here who have experience of different travels, but they ask competent and specific questions if there is a difference even in perception of what is being said. But these questions have a deep meaning, unlike what people here say who have an "opinion" and not knowledge.
Now you don't want change your mind about this?
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 12:49:56 PM

   
  • I can understand that infrasound could make them withdraw from the tent but not half dressed. Rustem wore one valenki but didn't even pick the other one up.

It doesn't say anything about anything, it could have been the last (with small interval of events) to whom it affected, and then there was what is called the "crowd effect".

   IS would not affect the whole group simultaneously.

Who told you that? Specify, say the time interval that separates "simultaneously" and not "simultaneously". Would few seconds suit you?

Some would succumb before others.

So they could not (even if they wanted to) squeeze into the hole at the same time. They interfered with each other, which is why "at the same time" is not suitable.

Those still in control would collect some footwear at the very least even if they elected to join the others fleeing because the tent was too ripped to remain.

What makes you think that someone and something should "control"? Arguments, please present. The question concerns the interval when they left the tent, not after that.

   Semyon and Nicolai appear to have been outside and the footsteps demonstrate they joined the main group a little further down the slope.

It's called «50-50». Could have been them, could have been others. The starting point of the trail was never recorded or published officially.

The contours of the hill would have made IS variable and they would have quickly reached a quieter place

I cannot comment on "making IS variables"(c) because I don't know what you mean by that. And I can't understand what's «fast» in your interpretation...
But the place where consciousness switching could have just begun, I know, is a little above Zina's place. But it takes time for the process of switching to a normal state, it doesn't happen, but a snap of your fingers like a magician. I estimate it at about half an hour or more. In that time, they've gone much deeper. Each on its own.

to reconsider and for SZ/NTB to return to fetch clothing. But that didn't happen. They had a flashlight.

In addition to the need perform action, you must be able to do it. But there are insurmountable problems.

  • IS didn't give three bodies marks of a similar pattern or signs of vomiting and bleeding head orifices, or Zina lying face down in her own blood.

And your religion probably doesn't allow you understand that they got injured later and for another reason?
For example, Zina fell in the third rocky ridge, broke her nose and got scratch on her side. There are more than enough opportunities there...

   
  • IS didn't cause strange photos across several cameras.

That's what you mentioned? I'll tell you in confidence: Jesus Christ wasn't crucified by IS either  lol1

   
  • IS didn't create curious snow effects, firn snow on the tent and surrounds and footsteps in snow as soft as a cow pat.

What are you talking about and where did you get this amazing information from? Would you decipher, please...
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 12:58:05 PM
Regarding the trip to the cedar and the injuries at the ravine, I have a number of questions (as usual). 

1) How did they find their way to the cedar?   

They found him by accident. It was almost an accident. When the first two they found at the cedar stumbled into the impassable snow, they began move aside. There (after ~100 m - this is ~ 300 ft) they met the cedar and decided that it had wood for fire. Judging by the available documents and reconnaissance of the place, the rest (except for Alexander Kolevatov) did not approach the cedar. There are no signs of what it was. But there are many indirect signs that they were not there.

If there was very little to no moon, they probably could not even see their hand in front of their face.  I know  of what I speak.

Of course you're right for where you saw it. I can tell you right away that their ability see was very limited. There is small backlight there, even if there is no moon (and it should have appeared only about 4 hours AM) . The fact is that in northern latitudes there is always something like northern lights, only very weak. It works even through clouds. Therefore, they could see something very vaguely only in the form of individual dark spots on the background of snow, at distance of about 10 ... 15 m (this is ~ 300 ... 450 ft). We tested this under similar conditions. There's a note here that people have different eyesight. Shura saw further (but only little) he has better vision than me. This note refers to the fact that part of the Dyatlov group had glasses, so they had not the most perfect vision.

2) Why would Alexander lay down and die when he was supposed to have very few injuries and supposedly no serious ones?

You forget about two very strong factors: cold and fatigue. At temperatures around -20C (this is ~ -4F), the constant heat consumption is about 3 to 5 times greater than the heat that person can naturally produce. The rest needs to be complemented by physical work. But person can't do it all the time and for long time. In cold conditions he should sit down to rest for few minutes and muscles will not be able to restore their efficiency. In other words, he lives as long as he can move, but it is impossible to do it indefinitely. Injuries further limit the time of life, but we must understand that with such cooling, death does not come immediately, and is delayed by many tens of minutes. By the term death I mean decrease of rectal temperature below +28C (it is ~ +82,4F). At this stage man cannot move anymore and his consciousness is very difficult. He can't talk anymore.

3) How is it that they would think to take a flashlight with them but forget to put on warm clothes? 

They didn't take the flashlight, someone had it on their clothes or in their pocket. And they didn't forget to put it on, but there were conditions when they couldn't even think about it. It's called as the ASC.

 
4) How is it that the four in the ravine didn't have frost bite and the others did?   

Because they worked for the rest of their lives and didn't fall into conditions where they could get frostbite. Especially for those who were injured, after that, the body stops creating reaction getting frostbite. Because it happens with intensive blood circulation in the peripheral areas of the body, and injuries lead to redistribution of blood flows. Especially for those who died very quickly after the trauma. There's another consideration in this regard. The bodies of the last four were in state of decomposition of varying degrees.  Frostbite could be overlooked, or considered to be not very significant in the present trauma.

Didn't the rav4 help build it and if not why?

No. It is best assume that all subgroups (4 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1) acted independently of each other and did not intersect. The question can only be about Dyatlov - there is no sign that he was at the campfire, and there is no definite sign that he was not there. And Kolevatov went to the fire from the place where the bodies of four were found. Someone had bring the clothes that were at the fire and put them on den. Others couldn't do that because they had such injuries that they couldn't walk.
As soon as you think that "everybody got together and held hands and went to the fire with the songs and then back", then there are insurmountable questions and there are no facts confirm this. It is not worth repeating other people's statements, they sat down without their own logic and supporting facts.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2020, 01:00:51 PM
Maybe that's all I can write today.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Nigel Evans on June 14, 2020, 12:50:27 AM

   
  • I can understand that infrasound could make them withdraw from the tent but not half dressed. Rustem wore one valenki but didn't even pick the other one up.

It doesn't say anything about anything, it could have been the last (with small interval of events) to whom it affected, and then there was what is called the "crowd effect".

   IS would not affect the whole group simultaneously.

Who told you that? Specify, say the time interval that separates "simultaneously" and not "simultaneously". Would few seconds suit you?

Some would succumb before others.

So they could not (even if they wanted to) squeeze into the hole at the same time. They interfered with each other, which is why "at the same time" is not suitable.

Those still in control would collect some footwear at the very least even if they elected to join the others fleeing because the tent was too ripped to remain.

What makes you think that someone and something should "control"? Arguments, please present. The question concerns the interval when they left the tent, not after that.

   Semyon and Nicolai appear to have been outside and the footsteps demonstrate they joined the main group a little further down the slope.

It's called «50-50». Could have been them, could have been others. The starting point of the trail was never recorded or published officially.

The contours of the hill would have made IS variable and they would have quickly reached a quieter place

I cannot comment on "making IS variables"(c) because I don't know what you mean by that. And I can't understand what's «fast» in your interpretation...
But the place where consciousness switching could have just begun, I know, is a little above Zina's place. But it takes time for the process of switching to a normal state, it doesn't happen, but a snap of your fingers like a magician. I estimate it at about half an hour or more. In that time, they've gone much deeper. Each on its own.

to reconsider and for SZ/NTB to return to fetch clothing. But that didn't happen. They had a flashlight.

In addition to the need perform action, you must be able to do it. But there are insurmountable problems.

  • IS didn't give three bodies marks of a similar pattern or signs of vomiting and bleeding head orifices, or Zina lying face down in her own blood.

And your religion probably doesn't allow you understand that they got injured later and for another reason?
For example, Zina fell in the third rocky ridge, broke her nose and got scratch on her side. There are more than enough opportunities there...

   
  • IS didn't cause strange photos across several cameras.

That's what you mentioned? I'll tell you in confidence: Jesus Christ wasn't crucified by IS either  lol1

   
  • IS didn't create curious snow effects, firn snow on the tent and surrounds and footsteps in snow as soft as a cow pat.

What are you talking about and where did you get this amazing information from? Would you decipher, please...
Greetings Sir!

Well maybe we have to agree to disagree, i'm firmly of the opinion that there are too many signs of injury for IS to be responsible. It could have been a contributing factor encouraging them to vacate the tent but something else was the main catalyst. They were intelligent, sensible and experienced, IS as a sole solution doesn't fit.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on June 15, 2020, 12:06:03 PM
Dear RidgeWatcher !
Thank you for your very informative and objective post.
I ask you (if it possible) convey my gratitude to your father for his objective judgment and good memory of the history of missile technology. I know that in these fields of science and technology, everything develops almost simultaneously in leading countries. One country breaks out for while, and then there is period when there are many obstacles and another country breaks out. But it does not matter. Because science is developing and it's all moving towards the benefit of humanity. I am very glad that I can convey my gratitude to my colleague in rocket engineering.
I will now answer your questions.


I was amazed to hear you talk about the early online forum connected with  travel site, I think I may have known this site as "Ermak TraveL" correct me if I am wrong. I posted on this site a lot. It was my introduction to the Dyatlov Pass Incident, and mystery.

I am very interested in how and why this case (Dyatlov's group) is interesting abroad? But this is a rhetorical question.
I think that information appeared on Ermak TraveL site much later than they started to discuss it on TAU (Ural) forum. The company "Ermak TraveL" itself is a large transport company, which has its headquarters in Tyumen. Information about the Dyatlov Pass is located on their subsidiary website https://****.com/Europe/Russia/Cholat-%20Syachil/dyatlov_pass_incident_rus.htm  and has the motto "Ermak TraveL Guide". I have not found the date of this information from them, but I think it happened after 2013, when all the big information appeared on TV and in federal newspapers.

Your quote: "Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass".

I have many questions but about your post which is very interesting and informative.

I spoke with my father about Russian Missiles and Rockets in 1959, he worked in Navigation and Guidance on missiles and rockets, particularly the gyroscope technology, which as you know is all done by lasers today. He said that Russian rocketry and missile guidance was very advanced at that time, as much as he heard about it. He mentioned what was probably the best missile system at that time being made by the Russians. He also said that the finances, work, time and precision parts it took to manufacture a missile or rocket was not inexpensive. He said neither the Russians or the Americans would just shoot them randomly over the Urals or New Mexico or the South Pacific.

Yes, he was very right say about that.  I will only add that our research and production were cheaper and faster because all this was concentrated in one place - the state program at state enterprises. The total amount of funding was much less than in the U.S., so when the "Moon Race" started, we didn't have enough economic resources, because we had to rebuild the country after the war at the same time (more than 60% of the country's resources and economy were lost there, and the country was the largest in the world in terms of territory). And it was necessary to develop industry, science, education and so on.  In addition, it must be said that the climatic conditions in our country are such that with the same production, we need much more money for the same production than in the more southern countries. For example, in China. We have more than half of the country in the permafrost zone and a very cold climate. But people live there everywhere, and they need to be supported technically and economically.
He has a very objective and accurate view of the period in the events of that time.

WAB,

1) In your opinion, do you think that a rocket or missile or some other projectile fell on Kholat Syakhl that night?

No, that's completely out of the question, for reasons I've written about here several times:
1. There's no sign of such action. If you consider all that was before 1960...1970.
2. The technical data and location (real, not fictional) of the launch sites clearly indicate that this is impossible. But you need to know a lot of details that do not take into account those who are making something up.
3. There are no conditions for what purpose and technology as it was done. In legal spheres it is called: there is no "cause-and-effect relationship".

2) Why have you gone to Dyatlov Pass so many times? Are you working on a present theory?

It wasn't so often. Everyone has a hobby, so leave your city for 7 ... 10 days (and in almost all these cases it coincided with the conferences in Ekaterinburg) is only as a rest and increase emotions. We have experience of many travels in such (and much more difficult) conditions. Since now it is very difficult to find time and money for more complex and long trips, so we "had fun" in this place. Very often I went for a short time to travel to the Kola Peninsula in winter in other years. There's nothing special about it.

3) What is your opinion on whether the Dyatlov Pass Incident will ever be solved?

I'd really like that to happen. But it doesn't depend on the “Golden Key” showing up. https://www.grimmstories.com/language.php?grimm=200&l=en&r=ru  and everything will open up, but it will happen during the time of scientific development and more thorough and professional research on this topic.
There have already been several requests to different archives, but everywhere they answered that there was no information there. That's when two groups of people appear:
One group believes that all of them are always deceived and developed conspiracy theories about general conspiracy and what is harming them personally.
This group doesn't know much and replaces its knowledge with "its opinion".
2. another category, believes that there is nothing special or criminal there, because there are no reasonable reasons or physical possibilities to kill Dyatlov's group intentionally or accidentally.
This group knows much more: it knows a lot about the terrain, the details of what happened, the conditions at that place in winter, etc.
The difference is that some people can't (and much more often don't) explain what happened naturally, while others don't want to "write a horror movie script" and understand that except naturally it couldn't happen. Nature in such places is a very dangerous environment and human capabilities are not infinite. For example, in the cold and in bad clothes a person can not live long. And there is no need for any rockets, evil Yotis and criminals, who do not know where and how they came from.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 15, 2020, 11:53:55 PM
Fweeeew....   long thread to read, but it was worth it.  👍🏼

Regarding the departure of the tent and the tracks.  I have never been convinced the group went down the slope together or otherwise all at the same time.  Just because there are tracks leading in the same direction, that doesn’t give a timeline or intervals in which they were made in retrospect of one another.  🤷🏼‍♂️

If memory serves me correctly, WAB believes the rav4 had fallen into the ravine at a dif location where the fall distance is greater.... the exact discovery location of the rav4 was still heavily debated.  Presumably, the terrain would lend possible for a significant size snow bank to develop on one side of the ravine.  Said bank could have later covered them after settling or collapsing into the ravine. 

I believe many of the injuries can be explained or contributed to falls etc, but not all.  Burned legs, self biting off junks of your own hand.... Zina didn’t have a scratch around her waist, but something a lot more substantial.   All but the rav4 (decaying) had a combination of busted knuckles, fat lips, black eyes, bloody noses......  I mean they REALLY must have been stumbling around like walking was a completely new concept.  🤷🏼‍♂️

Im still not convinced they cut their way out of the tent. 
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: janeeyre2150 on June 20, 2020, 06:43:50 AM
It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.

True. But then again i wonder if Ptuin would have any interest about the case at all since he would probably be around 7 yrs old when the Dyatlov incident happened
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: sarapuk on June 23, 2020, 03:16:31 PM
It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.

True. But then again i wonder if Ptuin would have any interest about the case at all since he would probably be around 7 yrs old when the Dyatlov incident happened

Vladimir Putin certainly knows whats going on today with all this renewed interest in the Dyaylov Mystery.  He also has access to all of the former USSR Top Secrets ETC ETC.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: firefox on July 01, 2020, 07:22:49 PM
Thanks a lot for your explanation WAB. good-posting   I do so love math and science.  Even with the information we have, I am sure that there are theories that we can (and maybe should) put to bed.  The human imagination can give us an infinite number of theories and I would hope that that would not be our goal. cry2  Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion with great pleasure... thumb1
Take look at the article that I already gave you here. It says all about injuries and "with math..."  grin1
All of this has been investigated directly on site under different conditions.

The Google Drive Document shows "access denied."  Is there a way to open the file, for you...?  Thank you....
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on July 02, 2020, 08:21:14 AM
Thanks a lot for your explanation WAB. good-posting   I do so love math and science.  Even with the information we have, I am sure that there are theories that we can (and maybe should) put to bed.  The human imagination can give us an infinite number of theories and I would hope that that would not be our goal. cry2  Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion with great pleasure... thumb1
Take look at the article that I already gave you here. It says all about injuries and "with math..."  grin1
All of this has been investigated directly on site under different conditions.

The Google Drive Document shows "access denied."  Is there a way to open the file, for you...?  Thank you....


I'm sorry, but it must have happened that I was clearing space on the Google disk and removing old partitions or moving them more compactly. Please submit a request to this address and I'll grant you access. However, I will ask you read or download this information immediately, or for while, because I may need space for other purposes unrelated to these discussions. Unfortunately, I have very little space for these purposes, and I have move the information around all the time.
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: firefox on July 02, 2020, 09:44:23 AM
Thank you, I have made the access request, and Google tells me it will have an answer in the future...
Title: Re: We may never really know what happened
Post by: WAB on July 03, 2020, 01:21:23 PM
Thank you, I have made the access request, and Google tells me it will have an answer in the future...

I already saw your request this morning and gave you access.