Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: amashilu on March 16, 2024, 06:50:26 AM

Title: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: amashilu on March 16, 2024, 06:50:26 AM
Thinking about the suggestion that the tent was not originally pitched on the slope where it was later discovered, but in the forest (and moved later) ... would the tent, in the forest, have been put on top of a line of skiis?
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Axelrod on March 16, 2024, 07:24:28 AM
I believe that the idea of setting up a tent near a cedar tree belongs to the category of fiction.
This is the same fiction as Fantômas, which I am currently working on to write the 45th story about Fantômas.

Several books have been written in English, where throughout the book the authors describe the chronology of events, and at the end they offer their version of events.
Doni Eicher (I can’t reproduce the spelling) believes that it was infrasound from the stones.
Igor and Teodora suggest that the tree fell on the tent.

I don’t believe this at all, but it is little possible that the injuries of some participants occurred when they fell from the tree, or when a tree fell on them when they went into the cedar zone.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 07:34:50 AM
Thinking about the suggestion that the tent was not originally pitched on the slope where it was later discovered, but in the forest (and moved later) ... would the tent, in the forest, have been put on top of a line of skiis?

Askinadzi answered this question: https://dyatlovpass.com/tree-cores#tentaskinadzi
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: amashilu on March 16, 2024, 07:44:05 AM
Thanks, Teddy! Below is the quote from that page. To me, it says we don't really know if the group took the time to lay spruce branches, or chose the quicker ski platform method.



Askinadzi on setting up a tent in winter (from my private mail exchange):

It is at the sole discretion of the leader of the group if to put up a tent on skis or spruce branches. In winter when the days are short, sometimes there’s not enough time to set up a good camp (we arrived at the end point late). This is where you need to show power! Setting up a tent on skis takes much less time than on spruce branches, but there are some nuances - does the group have enough warm clothes to lay for insulation?

If the leader decided, and he had the opportunity, to put up a tent on the spruce branches, it means he had enough daylight for this. But, in this case, he must either be an alpha leader or a the group to work well together. Setting up a tent on spruce branches will take much longer than with skis. At least half of the group will be diverted to this activity. If the hike is multi-day, the leader, even before setting out on the route, decides who will set up the tent(s), so that people know their job (this is practiced in training hikes) and, without a command, take axes and go to harvest spruce branches. Skis were sometimes placed under spruce branches when there was not enough spruce branches.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 07:46:35 AM
Thanks, Teddy! Below is the quote from that page. To me, it says we don't really know if the group took the time to lay spruce branches, or chose the quicker ski platform method.

Correct, we do not know.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: amashilu on March 16, 2024, 08:11:09 AM
If the tree falling theory is correct, then I would put my money on spruce branches, because the tree would have snapped the skiis like little sticks when it fell.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 08:29:02 AM
This is what I am trying to find near the cedar, a bed of spruce branches on the same dept as the tin can which is manufactured in 1958. Problem is the spruce branches don't respond to metal detector. I hope to find more metal objects and dig close to them.

Another interesting find would be a second fire pit. Because the one we know about was only powdered with snow and I don't believe it belonged to the Dyatlov gruop.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 08:37:29 AM
And if you ask me how come no one has found them it is because no one is looking.
In 2022 when I spent the night near the cedar my comrades were looking for Yeti and paranormal activity at night, they even had night vision googles.
I mean WTF.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/alien-yeti.gif)
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: amashilu on March 16, 2024, 08:44:41 AM
I imagine the spruce bed would be under the fallen tree, or near-to-under. You will need some powerful tools to move that tree. Trees are incredibly heavy. Is this what you plan to try?
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 08:54:11 AM
I can't move the tree but I can dig around it. I have secured a metal detector.

Problem is that they didn't have time to discard a lot of cans, they didn't have supper that night.

Every time I go back to the case I see why is it so hard to solve, because they died where they were found, but in the meantime, while dead, they went places and came back. Not on they own of course. We have layers of evidence left at a different time, and now we are trying to peel off who left what. Like the fire, the labaz, the tent...
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 16, 2024, 09:49:15 AM
In the diary, it would seem practice to use  fir branches, I don't think they would bother with both?

"As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep"
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 10:04:02 AM
Could have fooled me. They should be from the type of trees that are near by but the needles will be gone. I don't think I will be able to tell the difference.
Yudin made a note that the branches used for the den (flooring) did not match the trees around.
https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes#trees
"it is said that the flooring was made with fir branches, but in fact there were only spruce trees around." It is written in the criminal case that the searchers found a flooring made of fir branches in the Lozva valley, but only the tops of some spruce trees were cut nearby.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-trees.jpg)
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 16, 2024, 10:32:50 AM
Sorry, my poor grammar and translation problems.

On the English version it says fir, in the diary entry , when I use the Russian text, the auto translate says spruce .

When I say I don't think they would use both, I meant, I don't think they would use fir/spruce branches AND skis. This is my assumption on what's written in the diary because I think you would want to keep the bindings out of the snow if you could . Plus you would need to find or make a level spot for the skis on the forest floor that would possibly make as much work as cutting some fir or spruce branches?.

Fir and spruce seem to translate for both across languages, in translation and perhaps ignorance of those with knowledge about trees.

Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 16, 2024, 10:40:36 AM
I think Yuri Yudin may have got a few things wrong. How did he know they didn't match the trees around?
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 11:38:34 AM
Yudin went there in 1963. But I don't believe they knew where the den was back then.

Something else is on my mind. In all interviews Koptelov, who saw the bodies before anyone else (with Sharavin) claims there was very little snow below the bodies. He is persistent throughout the years.
2008 (https://dyatlovpass.com/koptelov-2008#7): "The area that we found and where the fire was, is flat and slightly covered with snow."
2011 (https://dyatlovpass.com/koptelov-2011#3): "And there was no snow under them!"
2013 (https://dyatlovpass.com/koptelov-2013#3): "I claim that they were lying on the ground, there was very little snow."

What if there is anomaly and under the cedar the ground stays clear, then the tent could be directly pitched on the ground. This will explain why the hikers crossed the ravine and pitched the tent under the cedar, because there was very little snow. Then I won't find branches.

And what do you make out of his drawings how the bodies were laying, this is impossible. How do we choose what to believe and what to attribute to... you fill in the blanks.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 12:01:31 PM
It is easy to see from the photo that there was very little snow on top of the bodies.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-432.jpg)

But how can we tell how much snow is under them?

Judging by the rest of the photos of the cedar in 1959 (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-035.jpg) Shura and KAN think that there was this much snow, and they are right because you can't see the mighty roots of the cedar that are above ground in the 1959 photos.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1920.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1921.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1922.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1923.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1924.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1925.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1926.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1927.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1928.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/IMG_1929.jpg)

Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Axelrod on March 16, 2024, 12:01:45 PM
If the counterfeiters were engaged in staging, then it is logical to imagine
that the place under the cedar tree in no way corresponds to the place of death.

For example, the death occurred 2 km from the cedar in another place, in the forest,
where there were a lot of fallen trees, and then the bodies were simply dragged to the cedar tree.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 12:06:57 PM
If the counterfeiters were engaged in staging, then it is logical to imagine
that the place under the cedar tree in no way corresponds to the place of death.

For example, the death occurred 2 km from the cedar in another place, in the forest,
where there were a lot of fallen trees, and then the bodies were simply dragged to the cedar tree.

You are missing the point. There are more bodies still laying in the area, items, objects, debris, a lot of work on the trees, it is a camp site with remaining bodies.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Axelrod on March 16, 2024, 03:32:15 PM
From book 1079: we are giving you a chance to make up your own scenario before you find out what we think actually happened.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 04:54:47 PM
From book 1079: we are giving you a chance to make up your own scenario before you find out what we think actually happened.

This is on page 4. Is this how far did you get with the book?
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: GlennM on March 16, 2024, 05:04:46 PM
What I struggle with in the fallen tree scenario is the lack of identifiable debris on the tent itself. In spite of their obvious injuries, no blood was reported found inside, nor outside the tent. In the book 1079, a very specific diagram of the victins under the branch is illustrated.  It is a good drawing. The tree branch appears to be a deciduous tree as opposed to a conifer.
The removal of the tent and bodies argues for conspiracy.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To date, that evidence is lacking.

As a speculation, if for some reason, the ravine 4 could not be located, but the remaining 5 were found, wouldn't it make a better ruse if all 5 were posed headed for the tent on 1079. To have the two Yuri's posed in close proximity to a fallen tree seems a gross oversight when so much time and energy were spent in faking a camp on a mountainside a mile away. Being posed under the cedar just begs for people to look around, which is exactly what you do not want if you are going to hide a criminal incident.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 05:44:30 PM
The diagram is not specific at all, how should we know what happened? This is an illustration.
The very specific thing about high velocity trauma is the lack of a single droplet of blood.
I have injuries like Dubinina (http://distal-humerus.com/intercondylar) and I had 0 blood on me, nada, zilch.

They were not posed. The staging was interrupted. This were not skilled serial killers. They panicked. They didn't know what they were doing because they have never done it before, and they were out of time.

GlennM, you are talking as if there is certainty in any of this. This is a speculation, I can't prove any of it.
But show me a theory where anyone can prove anything. At this point we speculate what might have happened. And I go every year trying to find supporting evidence for mine.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 16, 2024, 06:14:50 PM
As a speculation, if for some reason, the ravine 4 could not be located, but the remaining 5 were found, wouldn't it make a better ruse if all 5 were posed headed for the tent on 1079. To have the two Yuri's posed in close proximity to a fallen tree seems a gross oversight when so much time and energy were spent in faking a camp on a mountainside a mile away. Being posed under the cedar just begs for people to look around, which is exactly what you do not want if you are going to hide a criminal incident.

https://dyatlovpass.com/dead-cedar#questions

Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 16, 2024, 06:54:58 PM
The snow depth around the ceder certainly looks close to the ground. I don't think it would be even as high as Shura and KAN suggest , if the white string is to represent the snow level.

The ceder would have had smaller roots and circumference 56-57 years ago. I'm not sure if the hight of the branches change though but there would be growth.

In the original photos , the area doesn't look like it collects snow which is why the location might have been chosen. I suppose it depends if  the snow didn't gather there because of the shelter from the ceder trees or its because the wind actually blew any lying snow further into the forest.


The area around the ceder must have intialy made a good campsite or a good survival spot. This might have been because it didn't collect deep snow , if the hikers had already struggled through deep snow when coming from the slope to the forest then it makes sense to try and not sink into the snow, find wood and try to make shelter. If it was for pitching a tent, then there seems to be space, wood and a stream for water.

I was reading yesterday about the amount of snow that is needed to melt 1litre of water. It is a significant amount and does pose a problem to the logistics of time and resources. if Dyatlov was going carry on along the ridge the following day at some point the hikers would need wood for an open fire or running water. I don't even know if the tent stove would have some way or attachments to melt water? I've forgotten what the other sources of cooking wear? Was it alcohol stoves?
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 17, 2024, 12:58:19 AM
Just wood. Another reason why night on the slope doesn't make sense. They had to carry wood and they didn't.
The guy with the wood in this trek is Dyatlov.
https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural


Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 17, 2024, 04:29:31 AM
If they had no other way of cooking or melting water other than an open camp fire and the tent stove it certainly creates a problem. Without actually seeing the tent stove it's difficult to know how they cooked from it.

It's depicted as a cylinder shape but could be square/ rectangular I suppose but they would need wood . There are reports of some wood being found in the tent and some saying there was none.

Why didn't the stagers put some wood in the tent or hang the stove? If Dyatlov chose to camp there, why not take a bunch of wood like in the photos you linked to?

Iknow you don't have the answer other than the tent was never pitched there . I can only think they maybe intended to get wood after they pitched the tent. It's then that Something happened, or they were getting ready for the morning and had packed the stove after using it for the night.  It's so frustrating .
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 17, 2024, 04:47:09 AM
The suspended inside the tent stove was never used for cooking, only to bring the temperature up in the tent (and burn some padded jackets (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1-february-Auspiya-03-1-30.jpg)).
They complained that it was very hot for whoever slept near the stove.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Tent.jpg)

The cooking was done in a open pit with logs outside the tent. When I was in Northern Urals in the winter of 2019 some cross country skiers showed me.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/open-pit-fire.jpg)
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 17, 2024, 05:02:06 AM
That's my problem with the tent stove, I can't see it being used for cooking or melting snow, not in the way that it would be needed to melt snow and feed 9 people anyway.

 I'm sure the problem about cooking and melt water has been discussed but I can't remember if someone suggested a solution. There's the single bowl/cup with left over porridge or hot chocolate if I remember and that's it.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Teddy on March 17, 2024, 05:20:03 AM
What is your question?
To melt snow they used pots.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20#sheet20
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 17, 2024, 12:28:09 PM
I know how to melt snow water!  bigjoke

It's how Dyatlov intended to do it on the slope is my question.

You don't think the tent was there, so I don't think you can help....
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Partorg on March 18, 2024, 07:52:40 AM
delete
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Partorg on March 18, 2024, 08:11:40 AM
Quote from: Ziljoe
I know how to melt snow water!
It's how Dyatlov intended to do it on the slope is my question.
The oven had a length of 40 cm and a rectangular cross-section. This made it possible to place on its upper surface 4 aluminum mugs (9 cm high and ∅ 9.5 cm) of 0.5 liters each.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: anna_pycckux on March 18, 2024, 09:15:29 AM
[From book 1079 #msg24746 date=1710628335]
From book 1079: we are giving you a chance to make up your own scenario before you find out what we think actually happened [/quote]
Teddy, I would like to know if you have a photo with a fallen tree and with the alleged place where the tree fell on the tent?
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Ziljoe on March 18, 2024, 09:30:16 AM
Quote from: Ziljoe
I know how to melt snow water!
It's how Dyatlov intended to do it on the slope is my question.
The oven had a length of 40 cm and a rectangular cross-section. This made it possible to place on its upper surface 4 aluminum mugs (9 cm high and ∅ 9.5 cm) of 0.5 liters each.

Thank you Partorg.

I always appreciate your measured approach. Do you think this method would be enough to sustain the fluids for 9 people. ?

I believe that they pitched the tent on the slope but I do question the logistics of melting snow and hot food , for the evening and the morning for the next day.

It is not a trick question but if there' was no wood found , or little wood in the tent I can't work it out in my head. .

Reading on our sister website ( Dyatlov pass 1) they also discuss the fluids ( water)

For me it's difficult to know camping skills in such weather. I trust your judgement.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Partorg on March 18, 2024, 11:20:04 AM
Sharavin and Brusnitsyn confidently recall that the furnace was filled not only with pipes but also with firewood.
From this we can draw 2 conclusions:
1. The group was going to spend the night on the slope, not below. Because you have to be an idiot to carry firewood from forest to forest, and even over a pass.
2. Since this amount of firewood could last for 30 - 40 minutes, they were not intended for heating, but for cooking breakfast -  no normal tourist would agree to "hit the road, Jack"16 km without a mug of hot cocoa.

I've never used ovens of this exact size, so I can't say for sure how much hot (~60-70°C) water you can get in half an hour by working this way. But existing experience suggests that ml 400x9 is possible.
When driving alongr elatively flat and hard surface of the ridge crest, energy consumption is much less than when moving on the loose snow of the valley, less moisture is lost and this should have been enough for at least one way (to Otorten)
Most likely it would be enough for the return trip along the ridge. And if the weather had forced them to go down to the Lozva valley, they would have stopped there for the next night and there would have been no problems with firewood and water.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: GlennM on March 18, 2024, 08:09:11 PM
"Every time I go back to the case I see why is it so hard to solve, because they died where they were found, but in the meantime, while dead, they went places and came back. Not on they own of course. We have layers of evidence left at a different time, and now we are trying to peel off who left what. Like the fire, the labaz, the tent...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 09:00:48 AM by Teddy »"

Much has been made of the bodies removed and replaced. Not as much has been made of their clothing. Apparantly, and according to Nurse Solter, new clothes were provided. They were not found with new clothes. They were found with their own clothes and clothes taken from the deceased. It takes a long time to thaw a corpse. Their clothes could or should have been scissored or knifed away to aid thawing for the post mortem. So, getting a body to the morgue, thawing it, washing it, changing clothes and then taking it back to the forest and posing them like they are approaching a bogus tent on the slope, is simply too much to accept, mainly because the evidence does not support it.

Looking for a 65 year old pile of rotted spruce branches under an equally old fallen tree is a brave thing to do, but an expensive thing. The fact that the tent on the slope did have skis under it speaks to experience. It is doubtful conspirators would attend to that detail, but would rather just stick the skis up in the snow to make the tent allmthe more noticeable at a distance.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: Osi on March 19, 2024, 04:15:32 AM
I'm writing this without knowing exactly how far Tedy's fallen tree is from the cedar, just guessing. I think it must be pretty close. In order to cause death through negligence and then attempt a hasty cover-up, shouldn't the criminals have disposed of the bodies much further from the scene? For example, 2 Yuri had to be located 1 km away from the fallen tree. Because the searchers would notice the fallen culprit tree. And if it hasn't snowed on it.
Title: Re: Pitching a tent in 1959
Post by: KathleenDSmith1 on April 20, 2024, 09:53:25 PM
Everyone and Teddy:

This snipped two photo.., all 9 hikers pitched a tent before the fatal incident ...1st at Auspiya and then at 2nd pitching of the tent at Mount Kholat Syakhl

(https://i.ibb.co/fQMjV4Y/camping2024-04-21-12-43-07-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kMKNVQg)


(https://i.ibb.co/bLd8798/tent-2-2024-04-21-12-46-17-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/y5sbVjb)

Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith