October 22, 2021, 12:29:54 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: They could NOT have been crushed by snow!  (Read 6231 times)

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March 28, 2021, 06:32:06 PM
Reply #90
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

This is a situation where I wish we could test the clothing and tent fabric!  As there were no animal tracks present, testing the fabrics could help us rule in/out so many things from wolverine spray to rocket fuel remnants to possible chemical particles from ball lightning!

I think for me personally, the most plausible explanation for the ravine injuries is crushing from snow, followed by Teddy's tree falling theory.  During the exhumation of Zolotaryov's body, the expert felt that his injuries very well could have been caused by heavy snow impact.  Because the rib fractures encompass the higher ribs (which are much more difficult to break as they are better protected,) this indicates a unique event to me.  On that, Igor's theory is definitely in the higher side of plausibility to me.  I do get hung up on the lack of evidence regarding a wolverine but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  We've seen it mentioned that there was predation on the two Yuri's under the cedar, such as their noses being eaten by fox yet there were no fox tracks under the cedar, so its entirely possible!  Again, if the clothes and tent fabric had been tested for various residue, we might have had more conclusive answers but then, this wouldn't be such a mystery, lol.  I do know that if a skunk managed to get into my tent and sprayed I'd be out of there, down the hill and a km away as fast as my short legs could take me, lol!

Well originally the Tent and Clothing was tested and no Trace of Rocket Fuel or Wolverine was found.
DB
 

March 28, 2021, 06:45:08 PM
Reply #91
Offline

KFinn


Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

This is a situation where I wish we could test the clothing and tent fabric!  As there were no animal tracks present, testing the fabrics could help us rule in/out so many things from wolverine spray to rocket fuel remnants to possible chemical particles from ball lightning!

I think for me personally, the most plausible explanation for the ravine injuries is crushing from snow, followed by Teddy's tree falling theory.  During the exhumation of Zolotaryov's body, the expert felt that his injuries very well could have been caused by heavy snow impact.  Because the rib fractures encompass the higher ribs (which are much more difficult to break as they are better protected,) this indicates a unique event to me.  On that, Igor's theory is definitely in the higher side of plausibility to me.  I do get hung up on the lack of evidence regarding a wolverine but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  We've seen it mentioned that there was predation on the two Yuri's under the cedar, such as their noses being eaten by fox yet there were no fox tracks under the cedar, so its entirely possible!  Again, if the clothes and tent fabric had been tested for various residue, we might have had more conclusive answers but then, this wouldn't be such a mystery, lol.  I do know that if a skunk managed to get into my tent and sprayed I'd be out of there, down the hill and a km away as fast as my short legs could take me, lol!

Well originally the Tent and Clothing was tested and no Trace of Rocket Fuel or Wolverine was found.

I have missed that, somehow.  I have only seen the radiology report :(
-Ren
 

March 28, 2021, 07:22:04 PM
Reply #92
Offline

KFinn


Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

Something else that I absolutely find informative in Igor's theory is his explanation of the weather on the ridge and the times that various events happened.  His analysis of the photos of the hike up to the ridge from the storage is fascinating!  His analysis of the column foot prints aligns with what I have always believed, with regard to their formation.

-Ren
 

March 28, 2021, 07:27:18 PM
Reply #93
Offline

KFinn


Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

Something else that I absolutely find informative in Igor's theory is his explanation of the weather on the ridge and the times that various events happened.  His analysis of the photos of the hike up to the ridge from the storage is fascinating!  His analysis of the column foot prints aligns with what I have always believed, with regard to their formation.

For those who can't access or translate, Igor posted this regarding the time of day that they hiked up to the ridge:

"Returning to the chronology of February 1.
The investigation had to study not the photograph of the excavation under the tent, but two previous photographs - photographs of the ascent.

First: Second: The uniqueness of these photographs is that they were taken with one camera, in one place, in one minute, but in diametrically opposite directions. And these directions are known. The directions are shown schematically and in reality may differ slightly, but insignificantly: In this case, there is no doubt that the first photograph was taken in a southeast direction and was taken against the sun. This is evidenced by the lighter sky and the lower contrast of objects visible from the shadow side (the worse the lighting, the worse the contrast).









Of course, one could speculate about any overexposures, etc., if it was not known that the first photograph was taken in the southeast direction, and the second in the northwest.

Add to this the good weather in the morning at the Auspiya camp and the duty of all sane people to go hiking in the morning. It turns out that the Dyatlovites left the camp at 10-11 o'clock in the morning and after a couple of hours, at 12-13 o'clock in the afternoon, they were forced to stop on the slope.

If these photographs were taken at about 5 pm, as the investigation believed, the sun would have already set in the west and the sky in the second photograph taken in the northwest direction would be, on the contrary, lighter than in the first photograph taken in the southeast."

All of the above is found at:

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=d8d5df98359b16c711ab36f894766d90&showtopic=5133&st=300&p=61104&#entry61104
-Ren
 

March 28, 2021, 07:30:23 PM
Reply #94
Offline

KFinn


-Ren
 

March 29, 2021, 01:21:35 AM
Reply #95
Offline

Nigel Evans


Rocket fuel has hallucinogenic properties.... Nitrous oxide, hydrazine.

Yes and Rocket Fuel also leaves a good Trace that would have been spotted by the Searchers and Investigators.




Not so, both of those are colourless. There were reports of orange snow of course.

 

March 29, 2021, 02:09:45 AM
Reply #96
Offline

Ziljoe


I was reading about the if there was a smell on another forum, Russian I think? and they said there was no smell on the tent or clothing. I didn't look at it that seriously because we have them here and there has never been one attack a tent or enter it and spray people. the spray isn't used as defense, they are very tough animals who will make grizzly bears back down and they spray to mark territory or food so other animals don't eat it. if there was one in the tent, they would be badly mauled

Hi tenne.

I am learning as I go. From what I can work out this , Wolverine ( weasal family)
Has 2 different glands. One is for marking it's food or territory. Its territory is short lived as it migrates a lot. Up to 20 miles a day. Its second gland is for spraying a horrid smell, only when it doesn't know what to do. It doesn't go in to tents or fights with dogs or bears with the intention of haveing a fight and spray it's stinky weapon. Its almost always the last thing it does.( As far as I am understand)

The smell after 3 weeks would have gone mostly.

Wolverine's are very tough animals that can make a bear back down using their claws and teeth. They don't use spray as a defensive weapon. The only way they would spray the people in the tent was if they were dead when it got there and it was marking them as their food so no other animal ate it

As I understand the Wolverine does have a spray gland for self defense. The animal is not well studied to this day and if we don't know much about in 2021 then less was known 1959. The investigation at the time might not have even known what to look for. The following is from Igor's work.

The wolverine is a nomadic animal that travels up to several tens of kilometers a day. It hunts day and night. It does not return back along its route. The animal is light, due to its disproportionately wide paws, it is adapted for movement in deep snow, therefore, it does not leave a dense trail, like a man, a bear or a wolf.

Attracted by the smell of food (loin), like a daring animal, not afraid of human habitation, she entered the tent through the lower, unbuttoned (as far as I remember, two buttons, but not sure) part of the entrance, after which she was attacked by tourists and used her "chemical weapon".

Information about wolverine's "chemical weapons" found on the Internet:

A.A. Cherkasov "Notes of a hunter-naturalist" 1867
Quote
“In addition, she has a special property, extremely original, although not entirely clean, namely: she, being surrounded by dogs and not seeing salvation, emits such a stench that the dogs immediately jump away from her. Local industrialists say that“ she, damned, obscures the eyes, so that the dogs after that poorly see and lose it from their eyes "; and some even argue that if a dog falls under the very stream of stench, it subsequently loses its sharpness of instinct; that is why the local industrialists do not poison good dogs on wolverines. The brutes even say that its stench is so strong, "that from it the snow glazes and turns yellow."

In the same way, the wolverine defends itself against a large predator and against humans. The jet reaches 3 meters. The stench is unbearable. A person cannot get rid of the smell for up to a week and a half.
 

March 29, 2021, 02:44:38 AM
Reply #97
Offline

Manti


Wouldn't there be traces of vomit around the tent if they were affected by wolverine spray?
 

March 29, 2021, 02:52:36 AM
Reply #98
Offline

Ziljoe


Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

Something else that I absolutely find informative in Igor's theory is his explanation of the weather on the ridge and the times that various events happened.  His analysis of the photos of the hike up to the ridge from the storage is fascinating!  His analysis of the column foot prints aligns with what I have always believed, with regard to their formation.

For those who can't access or translate, Igor posted this regarding the time of day that they hiked up to the ridge:

"Returning to the chronology of February 1.
The investigation had to study not the photograph of the excavation under the tent, but two previous photographs - photographs of the ascent.

First: Second: The uniqueness of these photographs is that they were taken with one camera, in one place, in one minute, but in diametrically opposite directions. And these directions are known. The directions are shown schematically and in reality may differ slightly, but insignificantly: In this case, there is no doubt that the first photograph was taken in a southeast direction and was taken against the sun. This is evidenced by the lighter sky and the lower contrast of objects visible from the shadow side (the worse the lighting, the worse the contrast).









Of course, one could speculate about any overexposures, etc., if it was not known that the first photograph was taken in the southeast direction, and the second in the northwest.

Add to this the good weather in the morning at the Auspiya camp and the duty of all sane people to go hiking in the morning. It turns out that the Dyatlovites left the camp at 10-11 o'clock in the morning and after a couple of hours, at 12-13 o'clock in the afternoon, they were forced to stop on the slope.

If these photographs were taken at about 5 pm, as the investigation believed, the sun would have already set in the west and the sky in the second photograph taken in the northwest direction would be, on the contrary, lighter than in the first photograph taken in the southeast."

All of the above is found at:

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=d8d5df98359b16c711ab36f894766d90&showtopic=5133&st=300&p=61104&#entry61104

It is interesting. I have also wondered about the timing of leaving to cross the pass. It left no time for navigation errors , broken Ski, injuries for example or a guarantee that they would find a suitable location to pitch the tent. The last thing you would want is no daylight and to be in the middle of a blizzard.
 

March 29, 2021, 03:15:41 AM
Reply #99
Offline

Ziljoe


Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

This is a situation where I wish we could test the clothing and tent fabric!  As there were no animal tracks present, testing the fabrics could help us rule in/out so many things from wolverine spray to rocket fuel remnants to possible chemical particles from ball lightning!

I think for me personally, the most plausible explanation for the ravine injuries is crushing from snow, followed by Teddy's tree falling theory.  During the exhumation of Zolotaryov's body, the expert felt that his injuries very well could have been caused by heavy snow impact.  Because the rib fractures encompass the higher ribs (which are much more difficult to break as they are better protected,) this indicates a unique event to me.  On that, Igor's theory is definitely in the higher side of plausibility to me.  I do get hung up on the lack of evidence regarding a wolverine but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  We've seen it mentioned that there was predation on the two Yuri's under the cedar, such as their noses being eaten by fox yet there were no fox tracks under the cedar, so its entirely possible!  Again, if the clothes and tent fabric had been tested for various residue, we might have had more conclusive answers but then, this wouldn't be such a mystery, lol.  I do know that if a skunk managed to get into my tent and sprayed I'd be out of there, down the hill and a km away as fast as my short legs could take me, lol!

Well originally the Tent and Clothing was tested and no Trace of Rocket Fuel or Wolverine was found.

I guess it depends what they mean by no trace. They might of dismissed a Wolverine from the start. If they were not aware of the Wolverines chemical spray,so  why would they look? They wouldn't be able to formulate the concept of what might have happened.

Here's some more of what Igor found. I take his research to be genuine as he seems to be very thorough. This is regarding clothes returned to the family.

 Returning to the orange powder on Doroshenko's sweater and quilted jacket.
Quote
I remember what she said and showed her sweatshirt and sweater, they say, everything is useless. In an orange powder.
What woman (especially in those poor years) would call dirty things "unusable" before washing ? So they can call things only if they tried to wash them, but to no avail. And the yellow-orange secret of a skunk, a wolverine does not dissolve either with water or soap.

PS As it turned out later, it was not about orange powder, but about the fact that things were, as it were, "stained" with something orange:
Quote
Recently, Irina Rashevskaya, sister of Yuri Doroshenko, made a new statement regarding the orange color:
"There was no talk about the powder. It was just that some things were kind of " stained "with orange."http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/makushkin.
 

March 29, 2021, 10:38:01 AM
Reply #100
Offline

KFinn


Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

This is a situation where I wish we could test the clothing and tent fabric!  As there were no animal tracks present, testing the fabrics could help us rule in/out so many things from wolverine spray to rocket fuel remnants to possible chemical particles from ball lightning!

I think for me personally, the most plausible explanation for the ravine injuries is crushing from snow, followed by Teddy's tree falling theory.  During the exhumation of Zolotaryov's body, the expert felt that his injuries very well could have been caused by heavy snow impact.  Because the rib fractures encompass the higher ribs (which are much more difficult to break as they are better protected,) this indicates a unique event to me.  On that, Igor's theory is definitely in the higher side of plausibility to me.  I do get hung up on the lack of evidence regarding a wolverine but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  We've seen it mentioned that there was predation on the two Yuri's under the cedar, such as their noses being eaten by fox yet there were no fox tracks under the cedar, so its entirely possible!  Again, if the clothes and tent fabric had been tested for various residue, we might have had more conclusive answers but then, this wouldn't be such a mystery, lol.  I do know that if a skunk managed to get into my tent and sprayed I'd be out of there, down the hill and a km away as fast as my short legs could take me, lol!

Well originally the Tent and Clothing was tested and no Trace of Rocket Fuel or Wolverine was found.

I guess it depends what they mean by no trace. They might of dismissed a Wolverine from the start. If they were not aware of the Wolverines chemical spray,so  why would they look? They wouldn't be able to formulate the concept of what might have happened.

Here's some more of what Igor found. I take his research to be genuine as he seems to be very thorough. This is regarding clothes returned to the family.

 Returning to the orange powder on Doroshenko's sweater and quilted jacket.
Quote
I remember what she said and showed her sweatshirt and sweater, they say, everything is useless. In an orange powder.
What woman (especially in those poor years) would call dirty things "unusable" before washing ? So they can call things only if they tried to wash them, but to no avail. And the yellow-orange secret of a skunk, a wolverine does not dissolve either with water or soap.

PS As it turned out later, it was not about orange powder, but about the fact that things were, as it were, "stained" with something orange:
Quote
Recently, Irina Rashevskaya, sister of Yuri Doroshenko, made a new statement regarding the orange color:
"There was no talk about the powder. It was just that some things were kind of " stained "with orange."http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/makushkin.

I did just (moments ago, oddly!!) read an interview from 2012 with Askinadzi who said there were no stained clothes when he helped Yuri Yudin inventory the clothing from the tent.  Another list to make; who saw stains and who refutes them so I can compare perspectives!!
-Ren
 

March 29, 2021, 11:31:40 AM
Reply #101
Offline

Ziljoe


Quote from: Ziljoe link=topic=866.msg14736#msg14736
date=1617012941
Well it's interesting. If it's worse than a skunk and was in side the tent it would be very concentrated. I don't how air borne the partials would be and if it would have been inhaled to the respiratory system making things worse.

There seems to be more information about the skunk and have luckily not had the pleasure of smelly it!

But it is a theory along along with all others. Very compelling and Igor's links have a lot of research. I just wish he would post it up for you guys to see in English.

Its not all about the Wolverine.

Be very glad, lol!!  Skunks stink!!  We get a lot of wildlife here; bears, skunks, raccoons, feral cats (the cats are the meanest, lol!  I am the caretaker for the feral colony and I've seen the mama cat chase a bear out of our yard!)  Skunks mostly scavenge in the garbage cans but otherwise aren't too bad.  But if another animal scares them and they spray near the house, oh!  Its awful!!! 

I've finally had a chance to really pour through Igor's links, now that I have a browser that will translate.  He's certainly done a LOT of research!! 

Great stuff Kfinn. I'm sure I read through the links about cats having a go at bears. I've seen my cats chase dogs away. A very odd thing to see.lol

I would love to hear your thoughts on his theory. Lots of new stuff I hadn't come across ,or new to me anyway.

This is a situation where I wish we could test the clothing and tent fabric!  As there were no animal tracks present, testing the fabrics could help us rule in/out so many things from wolverine spray to rocket fuel remnants to possible chemical particles from ball lightning!

I think for me personally, the most plausible explanation for the ravine injuries is crushing from snow, followed by Teddy's tree falling theory.  During the exhumation of Zolotaryov's body, the expert felt that his injuries very well could have been caused by heavy snow impact.  Because the rib fractures encompass the higher ribs (which are much more difficult to break as they are better protected,) this indicates a unique event to me.  On that, Igor's theory is definitely in the higher side of plausibility to me.  I do get hung up on the lack of evidence regarding a wolverine but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  We've seen it mentioned that there was predation on the two Yuri's under the cedar, such as their noses being eaten by fox yet there were no fox tracks under the cedar, so its entirely possible!  Again, if the clothes and tent fabric had been tested for various residue, we might have had more conclusive answers but then, this wouldn't be such a mystery, lol.  I do know that if a skunk managed to get into my tent and sprayed I'd be out of there, down the hill and a km away as fast as my short legs could take me, lol!

Well originally the Tent and Clothing was tested and no Trace of Rocket Fuel or Wolverine was found.

I guess it depends what they mean by no trace. They might of dismissed a Wolverine from the start. If they were not aware of the Wolverines chemical spray,so  why would they look? They wouldn't be able to formulate the concept of what might have happened.

Here's some more of what Igor found. I take his research to be genuine as he seems to be very thorough. This is regarding clothes returned to the family.

 Returning to the orange powder on Doroshenko's sweater and quilted jacket.
Quote
I remember what she said and showed her sweatshirt and sweater, they say, everything is useless. In an orange powder.
What woman (especially in those poor years) would call dirty things "unusable" before washing ? So they can call things only if they tried to wash them, but to no avail. And the yellow-orange secret of a skunk, a wolverine does not dissolve either with water or soap.

PS As it turned out later, it was not about orange powder, but about the fact that things were, as it were, "stained" with something orange:
Quote
Recently, Irina Rashevskaya, sister of Yuri Doroshenko, made a new statement regarding the orange color:
"There was no talk about the powder. It was just that some things were kind of " stained "with orange."http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/makushkin.

I did just (moments ago, oddly!!) read an interview from 2012 with Askinadzi who said there were no stained clothes when he helped Yuri Yudin inventory the clothing from the tent.  Another list to make; who saw stains and who refutes them so I can compare perspectives!!

Have you got a link Kfinn. I googled his name and I'm away off down another rabbit hole...

 

March 29, 2021, 11:46:30 AM
Reply #102
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KFinn



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I did just (moments ago, oddly!!) read an interview from 2012 with Askinadzi who said there were no stained clothes when he helped Yuri Yudin inventory the clothing from the tent.  Another list to make; who saw stains and who refutes them so I can compare perspectives!!
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Have you got a link Kfinn. I googled his name and I'm away off down another rabbit hole...
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Sort of.  It was posted in another group on Facebook, but without a link.  The interview was with Maya Piskareva in 2012, but I don't know where it was initially published.  There are snippets of it on this site, under the article "Chicken ala Otorten."  The text is very lengthy, and the part about the colored clothing is all the way at the end.  It was posted as "part 1."  I am hoping to get more information on where this originated, so if this looks familiar to anyone, please feel free to fill in the gaps!!!!

"Maria by

V. Askinadzi: "We are the last of the Mohicans ..."

Copyright Maria

Posted on 09/10/2012, revised 02/17/2015

Colonel Ortyukov, identification of bodies, Zolotarev's notebook, departure of Dyatlovites abroad

Vladimir Askinadzi tells ...

Vladimir Askinadzi was not found by me. Widelson found him.
I did not even suspect of its existence, I only saw a glimpse of Askenadze's surname when I studied the materials of the Criminal case on the death of the Dyatlov group - his signature is in the Templar protocol of the place where the bodies of the last four Dyatlovites were found in May 1959. Askenadze's surname was also encountered in some memories of the search engines -students of those years. And that's all. Well, a search engine and a search engine, like many others, that he can add something special about searches to the stories of other search engines, when his UPI comrades, basically, everyone says "I don't remember, I don't know, I forgot" ...
And when Videlson sent me the address and asked if I wanted to talk with V. Askenadze, I was not in a special mood. I got tired of getting information about that tragedy, and in response, instead of simply being grateful for the new information, basically, getting jabs and slaps from other "researchers". It's summer, our suitcases are packing, we are going home, to Russia, to St. Petersburg! What kind of interview is there, leave me alone, I'm on vacation.
But my soul was restless. How is it ... I have the address of the person who found Lyuda Dubinina, and I will not use the opportunity to write to him?
Of course, upon arrival in St. Petersburg, I immediately wrote a letter.
And I got an answer.
Acquaintance with Vladimir Askinadzi greatly changed my life. I am still impressed by communicating with this person. I’m even probably in love with him, but I don’t want to admit it to myself.
But the most important thing is that Vladimir Mikhailovich Askinadzi told such incredible things about searches and people, one way or another connected with that distant tragedy that I was personally shocked. And I think that many will also be stunned by his stories, so easily he destroyed many myths of woodpecker science. And he is a wonderful storyteller, so she did not even interrupt his narration with her questions, but decided to leave, everything as it is, the living speech of Vladimir Askinadzi himself. Read on and be amazed at how surprised and worried I myself was when I received another letter from Vladimir Mikhailovich.
In conclusion, I want to say that I am grateful to God for the fact that He "at the fragile crossroads of the universe" brought me together with such an interesting, with such a wonderful person as Vladimir Mikhailovich Askinadzi.

* * *
Notation in the text:
V.M.A. -Vladimir Mikhailovich Askinadzi
M.P. -Maya Piskareva

* * *

MP: Tell me, please, are you the same Vladimir Askenadze, a student of the Ural Polytechnic Institute, who in May 1959 took part in the search for the missing Dyatlov group?

V.M.A .: Yes, Maya Leonidovna, I am the same Vladimir Askinadzi who participated in the search for the last four Dyatlovites in May 1959. I am at your service. I just ask you to take into account that 53 years have passed since then, and many details, naturally, have been erased from memory. Therefore, do not blame me if there is less sense from me than you expect. I look forward to your questions.

MP: Dear Vladimir Mikhailovich! Thank you for responding, thank you for agreeing to answer the questions! I'm so glad, you can't even imagine how. It doesn't matter that 53 years have passed, because the main thing still remains in the memory. I do not directly know where to start, I am bursting with joy that you were found. Do not judge strictly, please! But it seems to me that only you can already answer the questions that no one answered. Perhaps I'll start with a simple one: please tell me how your surname is spelled correctly?
VMA: Correctly my surname is spelled with "and" at the end (if it has any meaning).
MP: Do you follow the topic of the tragedy in the press, or not? Do you communicate with any of your former classmates at the UPI, or with someone with whom you were in search?
V.M.A .: Yes of course. I have a fairly close contact with my peers, tourists in Yekaterinburg. They regularly send all new items that appear on this topic, including the magazine "Ural Pathfinder". Yes, and I myself fish out something from the Internet. By the way, about the press. A lot has appeared and, probably, frank absurdities will appear in the explanation of the causes of death. I believe that a very unscrupulous forensic expert gave food for this, saying that, in particular, Lyuda Dubinina had wounds during her lifetime. Outright nonsense. She was lying on a small ledge, and melt water flooded her face. She lay in this position for more than a month and a half. Naturally, all soft tissues and even her tongue were washed (her mouth was open). When I wrote to the guys in Sverdlovsk that the examination was unscrupulous, they told me that this version "
I know that Nikolai Kuznetsov worked at the Novovoronezh nuclear power plant. I don't know anything about the other members of my group, but, probably, this is the fault of the conditions in which I found myself after graduation. Very good long-term communication with Evgeny Zinoviev, with the Poluyanovs. Through them, I am aware that the tradition of gathering on the first Saturday of February is still alive!
MP: Do you remember how you found Lyuda Dubinina? Who recognized her, recognized that it was her?
VMA: Not only do I remember, but I was the one who found her. Everything happened both planned and accidentally, as always. We localized the search area to several square meters and, working with emergency probes 2 meters long, I hit Luda in the neck. Thought it was just moss. But when I turned the probe around and pulled it out, there was meat on the hook (Can you imagine how an emergency probe works?). This caused a real commotion, the head of the search, Colonel Ortyukov, was especially worried. It was May 4th.
That this was Luda, no one had any doubts, since they were looking for her.
MP: Did you know Luda from UPI? Have you talked to her? Please tell us everything you remember about her.
V.M.A .: I didn't know people. E. Zinoviev or P. Bartholomew can tell about it in detail. They knew all the Dyatlovites well.
MP: Vladimir Mikhailovich, this question may seem strange to you, but I have to ask it: when they found the last four in the ravine, were there four people, or more? One of the photos in a ravine shows how the military is pulling out the body of some unfamiliar girl, with a dark long braid. She does not look like Luda.
VMA: There were four of them.
Here I am writing these lines, and I myself am there again, as if these 53 years had not been! Again, everything is clear before your eyes. The emotions of those days are especially clear.
After all, how did we find them ??
In an interview with Vladimir Androsov, you asked him a question about the flooring, and he, not seeing him alive, said, “Nobody chopped these trunks, because they are dry without needles, look carefully, they were just collected. There are such former trees in the forest. , they just break them with their hands. Yes, there is some kind of dry forest, old dead wood. "
If they had dry dead wood, they would be alive. There was nothing to make a fire from, so they climbed the cedar to get at least a little dry land (they believed that the lower branches of the trees were drier than the upper ones). They cut off the tops of young trees with a knife to make a flooring, lay it in the lowland and hide from the wind.
When these tops were dragged, the small twigs broke off, and there was a barely noticeable path of these twig tips. We found the flooring by THEM. On the morning of May 4 (May 1 and May 2, Ortyukov gave us a rest, since we were very tired over the past few days, working with probes), so, on the morning of May 4, the Kurikov brothers were discussing something with me in their own language, but from their gestures one could guess that we are talking about these branches. We went to Ortyukov's tent. Stepan Kurikov (he was in favor of the elder) explained to Ortyukov that he needed to dig in the area of ​​the twigs, although the day before it was decided that we would dig a stream, but much higher than the decapitated Christmas trees. This is where our successes began !!! The twigs led us deep into the snowdrift, almost vertically. You probably have a photo where I put a 2-meter probe to scale the depth of the crust. Another meter remained to the top level of the snow.

Here is a photo of the decking and a scale probe. The upper dark corner is the edge of the tarp with which we covered the bodies of the guys from the sun until the arrival of the bosses.
MP: Thank you for your comment on the flooring. By the way, Mikhail Sharavin said that the needles on the flooring were reddish, according to Ivanov. Here's what's interesting. Do you remember the green and fresh flooring?
VMA: In my opinion, Ivanov did not approach the flooring. From afar he looked at the trees without tops and went to the corpses. By the way, I noticed that Ivanov did not record anything, did not photograph anything. It seems that he is not interested in this, and he knows in advance the cause of death and what will happen next. And then - this area was closed to tourists for many years. I will express my opinion without imposing it on anyone. This area is not interesting for tourists. He is good at only one thing - you can manage to get through during the winter student holidays, and that is his whole charm. Well, I responsibly declare that the flooring was made of living tops of the trees !!
MP: Thank you! So what is next?
V.M.A .: Now it became clear that it makes no sense to go far from the flooring. We must look for the next 10-15 sq. meters. Another private observation of mine: the tops of the trees were cut off and the flooring was done after the guys froze under the cedar, because there were their things on the flooring, including trousers cut along the groin. So they remove only from corpses. These events took place before lunch, and after that I alone took the probe, and the others watched (not because they did not want to work, but agreed, just to make, as in geology, a test hole). It was then that I hit Luda's neck. If my probe had deviated to the right or left by 10 cm, and we would have gone up the stream to probe the snow. Here is both randomness and regularity at the same time. Of course, we would have found them anyway, but maybe a week or two later. And if you take into account, it's May, the crediting session began at the institute and exams are coming soon,
The whole camp, even the lazy "dog breeder" who slept for everyone (we told him that "we went in search, and you sleep for Suvorov today, and tomorrow for Mokhov") and he came running. It was about 14-15 hours. There, at that time, the day was quite long.
They began to carefully dig, and another head appeared 20-30 cm from Luda's head. But in order to dig further, it was necessary to remove Luda's body. We took it out and put it aside, wrapping it in some kind of rags. This is why you cannot identify the body in the frame. She just wasn't there anymore. In the frame the next day, in the presence of all the bosses, we pulled out only the guys.

This is Luda's corpse. She is on her knees and her head rests on both hands. Water rolls over your head. We saw this. Casual wrapped legs, sweatpants, cowboy shirt and light sweater. Pay attention to the ledge on which Luda's head lies. He will be in the next photo, but without Lyuda.

At the bottom of the frame is the ledge on which Dubinina's head lay. Zolotarev has two watches on his wrist. Well, look, at what distance from each other their heads lie ?? One square meter, if not less. Kolevatov and Thibault-Brignoles have their eyes washed and almost scalped. See for yourself and what you see is yours! We have seen the same thing. The difference is small - we saw this in a state of extreme tension and nervousness. Moreover, we saw them for a very short time. Pulled out of the stream, wrapped in liners from sleeping bags and special bags that the pilots had brought, quickly signed an act, and the corpses flew away. You can calmly look at the photo even through a magnifying glass, calmly, for weeks. Then there were questions. Many years later questions, questions and questions. For the most part, someone invented something awkward, and then asked to confirm whether, for example, burnt tree branches, suggesting a small atomic explosion or a missile fall. I only know one thing - to scare to death a grown guy or cause him to panic, bordering on loss of mind, you have to try very hard. Monka Axelrod put forward the idea of ​​an avalanche. I told him right away, would an avalanche scare you so? He remained silent, but in print he continued to insist on this version. There were even enthusiasts, in my opinion, from St. Petersburg, who conducted a large-scale scientific experiment, proving that a terrible avalanche could descend from a slope of 17 degrees, throwing hardened young guys into panic. An avalanche on such a slope, in the worst case, if it starts, it will end in a couple of minutes, well, let it be in 5 minutes. She will no longer have energy. This does not frighten! In the end, it was concluded that an avalanche was possible, but not catastrophic. Laughter!! This can be said by reading the popular literature on avalanches, and from the photo determine the angle of the slope. And that's all !! But ... I do not invent hypotheses.

They are pulling out the last one, Kolevatov. No eyes, no hairstyles. It is impossible to take by the body - it falls apart ... only by the clothes. The eyebrows, as far as I remember, were not preserved. Yes, it can be seen in the picture - there is nothing above the eye sockets.
As for some kind of freezing of corpses, (how do people know such clever words ??) I don't know. I know that we put them in bags calmly, without breaking them. Their joints were mobile.
MP: But now a new misunderstanding arises. According to the protocol of examining bodies in the morgue, hours, i.e. two watches were on Thibault's hand, and Zolotarev had a compass on his left hand.
According to the examination protocol, Thibault has two clocks on his left forearm: a sports watch that shows 8 hours 14 minutes 24 seconds. The Pobeda clock shows the time 8 hours 39 minutes. "
Zolotarev and Lyuda had no eyes at all, while Thibault and Kolevatov had eyes, but they were wrinkled and sunk deep into their sockets. Kolya's eyes were generally closed for centuries.
Therefore, the question remains - who was next to Luda in the stream. Isn't that Kolya? The watch is clearly visible from the photo on the hand.
VMA: The heads of all the guys lay on one square meter. This is the only reason why we dragged Luda out in the evening, because she prevented us from reaching the others, and left the rest until the arrival of the forensic experts, - Ortyukov wanted so much, and he was right. Only the criminologists themselves did not need it. You saw the photo where they all stand, like spectators at a play.
Luda and Zolotarev lay opposite the stream, and water flooded their mouths. And the other two were lying down the stream - their hair was washed away to their skulls and nothing more. One had the hood of a storm jacket on his head, the others had nothing. Lyuda also had nothing on her head.
When we got the bodies of the guys, Zolotarev had a notebook in one hand, and a pencil in the other. Ortyukov rushed to her like a madman, and then drooped sharply, not finding anything, only said, "I didn't write anything, slobber." Dear Colonel, if you hear me in the next world, what would you write if you spent at least 6 hours in a 30-degree frost ... Why A. Zolotarev was holding a notebook and pencil in his hands and did not write anything down, one can only guess. Probably, there was no time for this, and his hands were already frostbitten to the elbows.
I'm not a forensic scientist, I'm just a living witness of the first minutes. I have the right to object to those who, either from someone else's words, or simply carried a gag, embellishing the facts for convincingness, I saw everything myself !!
MP: Vladimir Mikhailovich, did Zolotarev have a camera? Were there cameras in the stream at all?
VMA: I don’t know how many cameras there were. It seems to me that they were not there at all, otherwise the hope of getting their photos would have warmed up interest. If the find of a notebook in Zolotarev's hand caused a stir, then the camera would have blown up the situation all the more.
MP: And the language ... When did you find out that Luda has no language? That Lyuda and Semyon have extensive rib fractures, no eyes ...
VMA: I learned that Lyuda had no language when I arrived in Sverdlovsk. Already in Svedlovsk, I learned that the children would be buried in closed zinc coffins, but Lyuda's father insisted that he be shown his daughter. When he saw her, he could not stand it, and fainted. And you would like us (also living people) to calmly look into the mouth of a corpse! For this there were other specialists, professionals. At that time, we also lived on nerves.
And now my version of their fractures. Above, I have already mentioned that they lay under a 3-meter layer of snow, and not just snow, but wet snow. There is a rock under the ribs, 3-4 tons of snow on top (static and systematic load) for at least 2 months. What do you think can be expected in these conditions.
After all, no one has ever imagined himself in their place !! I tried to construct events, but I didn’t have enough information then. I pass this torch on to you, I will run out of time.
MP: And the outsiders? After all, Thibault and Slobodin seem to have been hit hard on the head.
V.M.A .: There was no one to hit on the head. No-moo !! If someone were an outsider who famously hits the humble 20-year-old strong men on the head, then he (or they) should have hit not one, but everyone in a row. It means that there should be as many of these hitters as there are guys (7 people), or there was no one and the reasons should not be looked for in this. So look !!! All of you who are engaged in this topic have your whole life ahead, and we have already gotten our fill of it. Everything was around, but not the truth and not a desire to help. One got the impression that the real cause of death, by and large, was not needed by the authorities. Well, some group of students died, is she alone in the Union? Who knows that Marshal Zhukov, being the Minister of Defense, detonated an atomic bomb over his own soldiers without warning them in advance. How many "groups of tourists" then, without yanking, gone to the other world ?? And they were 18-20 years old, younger than the Dyatlovites.
Truth is needed when it helps to avoid repetition, when every person counts and needs to be taught how to behave in such a situation. The authorities did not have such a task. The overriding task is to extend your power at any cost.
The last time I ask you, if you want, I beg you - get out of your head the option with the killers. He will lead you to a dead end. You will only waste your time. There was no one there except the Dyatlovites. Of course, if the authorities were serious about serious research, the first helicopter, which landed the first search group, had to photograph all traces and the entire situation from above. After all, from above you can see a lot that has not yet been trampled down. But ... Newton, when asked what the nature of the gravitational forces is, replied: "I do not invent hypotheses."
Once I read an article by one enthusiast, in my opinion, Yuri Kuntsevich. He saw the reason for the death of the guys in the intrigues of the special services. According to his version, the guys were killed because they became accidental owners of some terrible secret. And to cover their tracks in front of the public, they were loaded onto a helicopter and thrown to the ground from a great height. Hence the intravital wounds, hence the position of the bodies, as if along a pre-marked straight line !! It cannot even be called stupidity, it is pathology. At that time, the authorities did not care about public opinion, they had no one to hide from.
A riddle - a solution to who, where lies - you will never solve, and not only to you, to anyone at all.
I will explain in detail and intelligibly.
My students - search engines during their lifetime have never seen Dyatlovites. I only knew Zina well, the other guys were not familiar to me during their lifetime. True, in one of the photographs in the background, in an unsharp zone, it seems like Igor Dyatlov is standing. If so, then we can say that we were standing side by side, 5 meters from each other, and no more. When we left in search, we knew only by surnames whom we should (!!) find. You see, there were no problems with Dubinina. When talking about guys, their names should be put in quotation marks, "a la Kolevatov", "a la Zolotarev", "a la Thibault". Now you don't need to explain the quality of Ivanov's work. We took out the corpses, and others identified them, who understood this even less than we did. In one of my letters I wrote to you about my attitude to the quality of Ivanov's work, that he was more confusing than investigating this case.
We take out the bodies, and Ortyukov dictates, this is such and such, and this is such and such. And everyone took it for the truth, not subject to doubt, since there was nothing to argue about. He knew only one thing, that no one would say that he was wrong. Nobody knew who they were actually taking out now. With a serious approach, it would be possible to immediately call Yudin. He was the only person who would have given an objective description of who is lying where. But this was not done! You can imagine the condition of the faces by the sent photos. Everyone was in a hurry then, in a hurry to close the case, because the authorities were afraid to let the situation get out of control. Moscow was in a hurry, Sverdlovsk was in a hurry, Ivdel was in a hurry. Sverdlovsk was seething. Everyone was eagerly awaiting at least some news about the Dyatlovites. The event was discussed on trams, in queues, wherever more than three people gathered. Therefore, everyone was in a hurry and everyone was in a hurry. And all the absurdities originated in Ivanov's office, all of them were fearlessly sucked out of the finger, since no one was interested in the essence, it was just necessary to close this nightmare as soon as possible. And he knew perfectly well that no one would ever read his material, let alone revise it. Anya Matveeva ran into this too! She did not imagine that in such a seemingly serious enterprise they could give birth to a frank linden. After all, information came from Ivanov that there was a fire on the flooring. I was in hysterics when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralskiy Rabochy", which was already sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born. all of them were fearlessly sucked out of the finger, since no one was interested in the essence, it was just necessary to quickly close this nightmare. And he knew perfectly well that no one would ever read his material, let alone revise it. Anya Matveeva ran into this too! She did not imagine that in such a seemingly serious enterprise they could give birth to a frank linden. After all, information came from Ivanov that there was a fire on the flooring. I was in hysterics when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralskiy Rabochy", which was already sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born. all of them were fearlessly sucked out of the finger, since no one was interested in the essence, it was just necessary to quickly close this nightmare. And he knew perfectly well that no one would ever read his material, let alone revise it. Anya Matveeva ran into this too! She did not imagine that in such a seemingly serious enterprise they could give birth to a frank linden. After all, information came from Ivanov that there was a fire on the flooring. I was in hysterics when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralskiy Rabochy", which was already sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born. that no one will ever read or revise his material. Anya Matveeva ran into this too! She did not imagine that in such a seemingly serious enterprise they could give birth to a frank linden. After all, information came from Ivanov that there was a fire on the flooring. I was in hysterics when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralskiy Rabochy", which was already sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born. that no one will ever read or revise his material. Anya Matveeva ran into this too! She did not imagine that in such a seemingly serious enterprise they could give birth to a frank linden. After all, information came from Ivanov that there was a fire on the flooring. I was in hysterics when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralskiy Rabochy", which was already sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born. when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralsky Rabochy", which was sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born. when I first read about it in the newspaper "Uralsky Rabochy", which was sent to me in Sevastopol. I wrote to the editor, but it turned out that Ivanov is still alive and working, in my opinion, in Kustanai. The letter was forwarded to him, and then it was muffled. This is how legends and troubles are born.
I'm afraid I won't have enough nerves to describe how people hungry for objective information, mostly students, tired of silence and lies, greeted us. Oh, we have become legendary !!
Once I was standing in line at the institute cafe, two girls were standing behind me, and one was telling the other about me. According to her, I am a Georgian, tall and with a mustache! They were not mistaken only in the fact that I was a Physicotechnical Institute. What is it !? Imagine my canine restraint so as not to turn around and say "ay, here I am. Haha !!" In this sense, we were legendary. Legends were born as an avalanche. We, especially students - tourists, were torn to pieces, demanding to tell more and more about the Dyatlovites, and the most active were the girls. It seemed (however, this also concerns you) that they were simply insatiable for information, give them, like drug addicts, the drug more and more often. Everyone was interested. They stood with their mouths open, even when they had already heard it five times before, yesterday. That's when we had to meet with you! We would have received a lot of fresh meat, with all the details. And in the yard in 1959. Your parents didn't even know each other yet. We will assume that you are cruelly unlucky in life (just kidding).
Well, what was written in the morgue and who was taken where, and who was taken for whom, you will guess without me. Or maybe I'm wrong? Relatives were invited for identification, but they were not told who and how lay in the stream. Although, probably, he is wrong again: if the clock was removed in the morgue after identification (and I doubt it), then it is not difficult to determine who was lying where, by exclusion. If the watch was removed before identification, then the question should be closed.
I convinced you of the dreadful complexity of the problem to figure out who is lying where, or not yet?
Stop, but in some way relatives can help? Or did they not open the coffins for them? Just try to identify at least partially on insignificant signs by comparing with the photo. Or maybe the inscriptions on the graves should be started to write with "a la"?
And who was lying next to Lyuda, consider as it is best for you, until you accidentally bump into reliable information or a conscientious informant.
MP: Convinced, Vladimir Mikhailovich.
The protocol on the discovery of corpses in the ravine was signed by you and Gilevich Yuri Davydovich (or Delevich, because his surname is not clearly written). Do you remember who this is? Is he an UPI student, or an outsider? For example, a military man or a railroad worker? Was he wearing a uniform or was he in civilian clothes?
VMA: It is very difficult to answer this question. We communicated there not by name and patronymic, but in a simpler way. We had soldiers from Ivdellag with us, and I simply called their chief Nikolai. Apparently even here for us he was not Yuri Davydovich, but simply Yuri. I don’t remember, sorry. One thing I can say, only Ortyukov was in uniform (he loved his colonel's uniform and was proud to be Marshal Zhukov's orderly) and the soldiers. There was a radio operator in semi-civilian clothes and we.
MP: Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement about what you saw while searching during the investigation? It's a strange thing - the country in which we were born, lived, grew up has long since disappeared, and the subscription is probably still valid ... But this is so, a lyrical digression.
VMA: I did not give a subscription , but the party committee of the institute warned me before going out in search (and I should have warned the others) so that they would talk less about details.
MP: Who else was on the search besides the students?
It is known that there were soldiers of military unit 6602 (convoy troops). Do you remember the officers who were with you on the May searches, for example, Captain Chernyshev, Potapov, Borey, Moiseev, cynologists with dogs?
VMA: Apart from the soldiers of Ivdellag, the radio operator and the Mansi guides of the Kurikov brothers, there were no strangers.
MP: When your group arrived in search, was Ortyukov already there, or flew in with you? Did the colonel leave the search, and if so, who remained in charge for him?
V.MA .: Ortyukov flew with us.

We are sitting in the canteen of the Ivdel airport.
The colonel did not leave the search. And he could not do it. What was the regime of our life? At the end of the day, Ortyukov gathered a small meeting around the fire to summarize the results of the day and the tasks for the next. As a rule, such meetings were attended by the Kurikov brothers, I, as the leader of the student group, and Nikolai, the leader of the soldier's group. Sometimes Ortyukov conferred only with the Kurikovs, without us. Therefore, he had no time to go away. And there was no transport for this.
During our entire stay, helicopters flew in when we had already found the bodies. The helicopters were only military.
M.P. Vladimir Mikhailovich, please tell us about your life there in search, about your life, where you washed, how you were fed ... What did you do after work?
VMA: Briefly about our life there and then. We didn't wash up to the waist all this time. When it was necessary to shave, they heated water both for shaving and for a good thorough washing. And that is all. And that's all.
When they dropped us off by helicopters, a large amount of food was brought along with us. We weren't starving. Ortyukov, as a military man, created the institute of orderlies, so they prepared food, for which they were released from searches that day.
I remember the 1st of May holiday. Ortyukov was persuaded to give us two days of rest, explaining that even slaves in ancient Rome were given days of rest. He agreed. And I could not agree more. He himself was mortally tired. Indeed, in addition to physical activity, he was burdened with a very great responsibility. The bosses were constantly rushing with results. It was at this time that I suggested to Nikolai, the leader of the soldiers, that we defend the watch in order to give others a rest.
We had a festive dinner. I don't know if you have a photo of me holding a partridge in my hand or not? We beat the partridges directly with ski poles. Absolutely unafraid beast! All victims were kept in the snow until the holidays. We filled with a dozen. And here's a recipe for roast in Otorten style. It is necessary to take 1.5 kilograms of butter, melt it in a bucket (preferably not in a zinc one), wait until the thrown test piece of meat starts to sour, dip the whole gutted partridges into the oil. If the butter does not cover all the meat, add the required amount. It turns out fried partridge. Everyone liked this dish. The second call did the same, only with the wood grouse.
But after dinner it was different. Our dog handler, who was without dogs, and therefore slept for days, was very fond of telling jokes, and his sleeping place was in the far corner of the tent. He loved to tell, but could not. The joke is so good that one phrase can knock you down, and one joke could last half an hour. After a while he got bored so that there was no patience. You shout to him "shut up !!", but he does not seem to hear, continues to mumble like a sexton. He meticulously described the character's clothes, what the weather was like. In general, he got us as best he could. When it was already completely unbearable from his anecdotes, someone, and sometimes I, grabbed a felt boot and threw it into a dark corner. It was impossible to miss. It was necessary to forcefully launch a felt boot into the wall of the tent, and he fell along the wall onto the narrator. This is not to please those
But, if we talk about what most often happened in the evenings, then, of course, they got tired, and after supper the dead fell asleep and slept without "dreaming." Youth!!
M.P. And Ortyukov, did he tell you about himself? When he spoke, did not mention Marshal Malinovsky in the stories?
VMA: Ortyukov enthusiastically talked about his service as the first adjutant of Marshal Zhukov. With him he went through the whole war. He slept in the adjoining room, dressed and with a pistol on his chest. I was with him in Odessa, got to Sverdlovsk, but did not want to leave Sverdlovsk when Zhukov offered to go with him to Moscow. Here he had a huge apartment in the city center, and in Moscow he was given a Khrushchev on the sidelines.
Ortyukov, when talking about Zhukov, resembled a talking wood grouse, who is so keen on his singing that he sees and does not hear anything around. He did not analyze any situations (in this case, only criticism of something appears when some options appear, etc.). Ortyukov had the memory of a loving, enthusiastic lackey - a batman who, without hesitation, would gnaw the throat of anyone the patron pointed to. He has no time for Malinovsky, and in general, for him there was only one god. For example, he said that Zhukov sent him on his private plane somewhere to his women for gifts for the 8th of March. He could fly to Central Asia and the Caucasus. Zhukov gave him personal money and then demanded an advance report (written) down to a penny.
You know, when the deer arrived to us, I was busy writing a diary, because they did not interest me. Ortyukov at this time "relaxed" well and really, really wanted pantocrine, at least from a live deer. He thought (spyana) that if you eat a whole deer horn, you can immediately run over the women, running to Ivdel.
M.P. And Nikolai, the head of the soldiers, did he tell you anything interesting about the service, about the escapes of the convicts? There is a story among the researchers that when they were looking for traces of the Dyatlov group with helicopters, two fugitive convicts unexpectedly came out to the helicopter with their hands up. They got scared, thought they were looking for them and decided to surrender to the authorities.
V.MA .: Is there a photo for you? 1. We squat like chickens. Nikolai is sitting in the same row, third from the right. In a quilted jacket, a hat and smiling. Guess what rank he is in !? One can only say that, firstly, he is much older than his soldiers. Secondly, it is clear from his independent appearance that he is the master of this collective. And, thirdly, the youth honored him as a leader. I have seen this more than once.
By the way, an anecdote specialist also helped us build the dam. He sits behind my back.

As for the "strange log construction". We assumed that they (the Dyatlovites) might lie in the stream, but we did not know where. In order not to miss the abundant flood and the fear that the bodies could be carried down the stream at night, we, having consulted on one of Ortyukov's operatives, decided to make a dam, protecting ourselves from possible accidents.

In this photo, Nikolai is in the background in the center, his hands are in trousers, but here he is not so distinguishable.
Ivanov is standing in the background, and a nobleman from Ivdel is leaning on a stick (I don’t claim, maybe even from Sverdlovsk). They, like guest performers, came, gasped, asked a few questions and, without waiting for answers to them, flew away. Someone is standing next to Ivanov (with his head cut off). Maybe this is the medical examiner? I do not know. Then it was not up to him.
There were nobles who stood next to me (I photographed), so they were not included in the frame.
In leather jackets, as you might guess, they are helicopter pilots.
We had no one, no surnames, no patronymics, except Ortyukov, only names.
Did Nikolai tell anything about the service? Only if we asked something specific. When we spent the day with him on May 1, I asked him all sorts of questions in order to brighten up the monotony of classes. Some are bad, others smarter, it seemed to me. He responded without grimaces to secrecy, without arrogance. For example, I asked him if there are often shoots?
He told me that there were attempts, but since all the surrounding residents had been warned about the responsibility for harboring, the runners simply had nowhere to go. The nearest station - Ivdel - is closed off, - patrols are constantly on duty there. Nobody ran for more than a day.
But how do they check whether they bring knives or other "prohibitions" from outside the zone, or from new arrivals ?? They did not have metal detectors, the guards knew from experience the hidden stash. Knives, for example, managed to hide in the rectum. Nikolai says, make him sit down 3-4 times, and the knife falls out, no matter how large it is.
Now you see how "meaningful" my questions were. He closed himself only from one question, what was the contingent of prisoners then in Ivdellag. It was much later that I learned that there were many former policemen. But why he hid it, I do not know.
The case with the prisoners, which you mention, is, in my opinion, myth-making, for, without thinking for a long time, the authorities would have pinned all their sins on them, and even more !! We would answer for all the unsolved cases in the last 10 years!
MP: When you found the flooring, and then Luda's body, you told the authorities who came to you the next day? Did Prodanov come? Was there anyone from the Ivdel City Committee? Did Tempalov come, the Revived? How, when?
VMA: Yes, the Ivdelian authorities flew in on the very first flight in the morning, when a radiogram was sent the night before that we had found the guys. Apparently, the commotion was not only in Ivdel. Dear Maya Leonidovna, at that time the authorities never introduced themselves, they liked it when they were kneeling to introduce themselves to them. Judging by some swaggering antics, the high authorities have arrived. I knew only Ivanov by sight.
I, probably, described in sufficient detail the day when we found the guys. I repeat, they all arrived the next day, when the day before we removed Luda's body, and left the guys in the snow for the night, since it was already warm enough during the day.
When I was talking with Ivanov, there was a man standing next to him, to whom I was not introduced and he did not introduce himself. It looks like it was Vozrozhdenny, because he reacted very carefully to my answers to Ivanov. I already told you that they did not have the habit of introducing themselves. I don’t know if he is in the photo, I didn’t remember him, because then I didn’t need him.
And I have never met with a forensic scientist, maybe in vain. In a personal conversation, somewhere in a neutral atmosphere, he could tell more, especially if I corrected his information during the conversation. Today it is already known that, for example, Ivanov was more confusing this case (not of his own free will) than he was investigating. I think that he was only a pawn, providing background information for more serious organizations. It was they who possessed complete information, including closed channels.
MP: Vladimir Mikhailovich, regarding the signature on the protocol of the inspection of the location of the last four. Where did you sign it? In the camp, or were you later summoned to the prosecutor's office to see the investigator? Who gave it to sign, whether Ivanov, or Tempalov, unfamiliar to you?
VMA: I have already spoken about the prosecutor. He did not record anything and did not photograph anything. All his conclusions are armchair inventions. As for my signature under the protocol, I regret to inform you that it is forged. This is not my signature!
MP: Then the other signatures of the students seem to be fake. And the protocol itself was not written at the place where the bodies were found. Therefore, there is no Ortyukov's signature on it either. It really turns out that the protocol is Tempalov's armchair invention.
MP: The Kurikovs also lived in the same tent with other search engines, or did they sleep somewhere separately, as the Mansi used to sleep?
V.M.A .: The Kurikovs slept with us in a tent.
MP: And the pilots - helicopter pilots, did they take part in the removal of bodies from the stream? What kind of conflict came out between Colonel Ortyukov and them?
VMA: The pilots, like everyone who flew with them, did not take any part in lifting the bodies. As for the students, it was decided in advance that the soldiers were physically stronger than us and would more accurately remove the bodies. There was no discrimination against us. I will tell you right away, we all lived very amicably, did one thing, and even during the day did not remember the cynologist's jokes. For us during the day he was the same ordinary worker, when his turn came to work (well, there was some specificity of his work, there was, well, he could afford to sleep during the day, but he did it for us !!).
First, so as not to forget, do you have a book by Anna Matveyeva "Pas de Trois"?
It is interesting in the archive of Ortyukov's correspondence with the management, especially when we found the guys. I only witnessed his emotions, but did not know the content of the radiograms. Anna published them. I discussed with her on some details, but received no answers. Then Zhenya Zinoviev told me that she was persecuted and she stopped communicating with anyone on this issue. I remember how Ortyukov grabbed a pistol (before that I did not know that he had one) and threatened to shoot all the helicopter pilots if they didn’t take the bodies right away. And the pilots calmly explained to him that, they say, you are a military man and you yourself should understand that the orders of the chiefs are not discussed, but carried out. And the problem was small: they were not allowed to take bodies unpacked. And what to pack them in? In the evening, when the helicopters departed, someone suggested using liners for sleeping bags. This decision satisfied the pilots the next day. And they themselves brought their own packing. I remembered this detail to show the strong nervousness of the situation, and not only in Ortyukov, but also in the rest of us.
Very nervousness started when we found them. The insomnia was not from some nightmares, but just a dream did not come and that's it! And not only me. Ortyukov did not sleep, Kurikovs did not sleep, and the rest, I think, also, for the most part, just lay there, hoping to fall asleep. Relaxed when the bodies were taken away. We slept as much as we wanted. Perhaps that is why I did not participate in the cutting of deer antlers and did not know who was involved in this.
M.P .: Vladimir Mikhailovich, and Zina, what would you say to the fact that she seemed to have been beaten, her face was so bloody, with abrasions and bruises, and her fingers were folded into a fig, judging by the photographs from the morgue ?
V.M.A .: Yes, I managed to see Zina even before our search. Her body was installed in the foyer of our hostel for two days. As for the fig, I don't know, the hands were covered with white cloth. It was not a fig. Those guys whom we found had their fingers in convulsions in the most unexpected positions. Here is the same Zolotarev. He simply could not write anything, because by this time his hands were frostbitten. From the guys who found her and the rest of the first, I knew that she was closest to the tent and, when she crawled, like a bulldozer, she moved the snow with her chin. An ice crust formed on the chin. And the snow was not loose, but with a solid crust. Hence the wounds on the face. But these were small wounds, the face was recognizable.
Of the entire Dyatlov group, I knew only Zina. The reason is that Zina was ours, a hostel, and we often met. The rest of the Dyatlovites, as far as I remember, lived at home, and this was a different level of communication. Several times were with her on small hikes on weekends. Zina was the leader. There was always a bunch of tourists around her. She was a very cheerful, cheerful person.
If they were dragging a corpse, then the type of wounds should be different. If this was when she was alive, I assure you, she will kill three men and not grunt! She was a very physically strong girl, very much. But what I insist on is closer to the truth. Let not the truth, but close to it.
On long hikes, Zina and I did not go together.
It also has its own specificity of institute tourism. The Turkclub was supported by a team of group leaders. Each had their own passions and interests. Each had its own backbone of the group. Therefore, the situation when two or more tourists from among the leaders walked in one group is a rather rare case. I was very good friends with Boris Martyushev (rest in peace to him), with other leaders, but I never had a desire to go with them, because you have been preparing your campaign for months and you can only refuse it if there is force majeure. And how can you leave the guys who were hoping to pass your route ??
I would like not only to humbly answer your questions, but also to show some initiative. Allow ??
MP: Of course!
VMA: I reread all your works on the very first evening. In one of the interviews, someone's sister (I really don't want to raise the material, but you can guess without it) said that she noticed some yellow (orange) traces of paint on her brother's clothes. Again, I was the first to see the things of the Dyatlovites (again, you were lucky).
As soon as they found the tent, the belongings left in it were brought to Sverdlovsk in order to make out what belongs to whom. For this business, of course, Yu. Yudin was appointed. Things were piled up in the ski lodge of our hostel, which was in the basement. It seemed to me that there were a lot of things. Here Yura took a thing from above, called its owner and put it aside. I took another one. If it belonged to the previous owner, he put it in the same pile.
In general, I figured out who owned which thing. Paradoxical things came to light when it turned out that someone had to be naked, because all his belongings were in the tent. So, again, there were a lot of things - but none of them had traces of paint, none! And things were sorted out carefully, slowly. And no paint! Wonders!? Or, again, a subsequent lie from any acts?
If you have the opportunity to contact Yu.Yudin, either yourself or through the residents of Sverdlovsk (Zhenya Zinoviev wrote to me that Yura does not feel well, is often ill, so hurry, we are not Kashchei Immortal), you can get any additional information about the availability or lack of paint.
I've already become a bore. And that is not so, and that is bad. But I also know that we are the last of the Mohicans, the last living carriers of this knowledge. After us, you will have no one to clarify certain facts with. You will cook in facts, acts, protocols already well-known, ground a hundred times, in general, in carrion. I understand this and humbly carry the cross that you unexpectedly placed on my frail body.
MP: That’s not sick at all, Vladimir Mikhailovich, if you can bear communication with me."
-Ren
 

March 29, 2021, 11:50:16 AM
Reply #103
Offline

KFinn


Also, please note.  Some of Askinadzi's thoughts in the unknown interview oppose his thoughts in this interview:

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0

(Mainly he differs on the theory of murder/killers.)
-Ren
 

March 29, 2021, 12:07:01 PM
Reply #104
Offline

Ziljoe


Also, please note.  Some of Askinadzi's thoughts in the unknown interview oppose his thoughts in this interview:

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0

(Mainly he differs on the theory of murder/killers.)

Thank you Kfinn.
 

March 29, 2021, 12:36:54 PM
Reply #105
Offline

KFinn


Also, please note.  Some of Askinadzi's thoughts in the unknown interview oppose his thoughts in this interview:

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0

(Mainly he differs on the theory of murder/killers.)

Thank you Kfinn.

I am sorry it is SO long and that I don't have the source for it, yet.  But I am poking around to find it!! 
-Ren
 

April 03, 2021, 04:05:45 PM
Reply #106
Offline

Manti


Thank you for posting this interview with Askinadzi.

I have read it to the very end, it is great, but the end raises a doubt?

Askinadzi is Jewish, right? I wouldn't expect to hear this from him
Quote
I understand this and humbly carry the cross that you unexpectedly placed on my frail body.
Just a minor thing.
 

April 04, 2021, 07:08:12 AM
Reply #107
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Its rather miraculous they picked one spot out the entire tundra to dig meters deep and struck den floor gold the first time.  So miraculous if fact, they doctored up the floor scene to better show you what they found.   🙄🙄
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

April 04, 2021, 07:17:45 AM
Reply #108
Offline

Dona


Yep. Damn near to the inch.. And how is it that the Mansi have a cadaver dog.. Really?
 

April 04, 2021, 12:13:20 PM
Reply #109
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yep. Damn near to the inch.. And how is it that the Mansi have a cadaver dog.. Really?

The Mansi are good hunters and are good at sensing things. Most Tribal people have that ability.
DB
 

April 04, 2021, 12:22:10 PM
Reply #110
Offline

Dona


Maybe.. if it wasnt under 10_feet of snow..
 

April 04, 2021, 02:41:51 PM
Reply #111
Offline

Manti


It was wet snow by then... That means decomposition. So I wouldn't be surprised if dogs picked up something.

Also another random thought... above orange staining was discussed. They brought a tangerine with them in their backpack. May or may not be unrelated.
 

April 04, 2021, 03:46:00 PM
Reply #112
Offline

Dona


We were taking about the den. no dead bodies there..
 

April 04, 2021, 05:18:43 PM
Reply #113
Offline

Manti


 

April 05, 2021, 10:08:34 AM
Reply #114
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Maybe.. if it wasnt under 10_feet of snow..

The Mansi spotted things and followed them and that led to the search of the area around the Ravine.
DB
 

April 15, 2021, 03:08:53 PM
Reply #115
Offline

Paf


What if some in the den survived a collapsing ?
I'm thinking about Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, but overall Slobodin who has fractured skull. They could explain why the 4 "den dead" were not on the branches.

(((( They were cold (but not freezing yet), mourning Krivo an Doroshenko (since they had their jumper, pants, ect), talking about itinerary for the next day (the compass and notebook), and then the den collapse.
Some of them are injured, some not. (Dubinina, in addition to her broken chest, could have bitten her tongue cut : she got blood in her stomac, and the river bugs / currant eat the rest )

Slobodin and maybe Dyatlov or / and Kolmogorova  take the other out of the collapsed den. Dubinina die first, so her main jacket pass to Tibo. It's not enough, and the 3 better-feeling people freeze slowly watching their friend die / trying to keep them warm. -Dubinina remains are disposed along the 3 others, but the river later move her body.-
After the 4 people die, the remaining 3/2/1 (Slobodin at least), freezing, try to hike back to the tent to find food and heating device and die from hypothermia on their way, it-self caused by cold it-self, exhaustion and/or injuries. ))))
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 03:58:34 PM by Paf »
 

April 16, 2021, 11:03:50 AM
Reply #116
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
What if some in the den survived a collapsing ?
I'm thinking about Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, but overall Slobodin who has fractured skull. They could explain why the 4 "den dead" were not on the branches.

(((( They were cold (but not freezing yet), mourning Krivo an Doroshenko (since they had their jumper, pants, ect), talking about itinerary for the next day (the compass and notebook), and then the den collapse.
Some of them are injured, some not. (Dubinina, in addition to her broken chest, could have bitten her tongue cut : she got blood in her stomac, and the river bugs / currant eat the rest )

Slobodin and maybe Dyatlov or / and Kolmogorova  take the other out of the collapsed den. Dubinina die first, so her main jacket pass to Tibo. It's not enough, and the 3 better-feeling people freeze slowly watching their friend die / trying to keep them warm. -Dubinina remains are disposed along the 3 others, but the river later move her body.-
After the 4 people die, the remaining 3/2/1 (Slobodin at least), freezing, try to hike back to the tent to find food and heating device and die from hypothermia on their way, it-self caused by cold it-self, exhaustion and/or injuries. ))))

We dont know if it was a Den and if any one had have been in it or on it. So we cant say if there was a collapse or not.
DB
 

September 05, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
Reply #117
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss




Reply #102
.....
I did just (moments ago, oddly!!) read an interview from 2012 with Askinadzi who said there were no stained clothes when he helped Yuri Yudin inventory the clothing from the tent.  Another list to make; who saw stains and who refutes them so I can compare perspectives!!
........................
Sort of.  It was posted in another group on Facebook, but without a link.  The interview was with Maya Piskareva in 2012, but I don't know where it was initially published.  There are snippets of it on this site, under the article "Chicken ala Otorten."  The text is very lengthy, and the part about the colored clothing is all the way at the end.  It was posted as "part 1."  I am hoping to get more information on where this originated, so if this looks familiar to anyone, please feel free to fill in the gaps!!!!

"Maria Piskareva  by V. Askinadzi: "We are the last of the Mohicans ..."
................
Posted on 09/10/2012, revised 02/17/2015
.........................
Vladimir Askinadzi tells ...

The first interview from Vladimir Askindazi, by Maya Piskareva Reply #102, seems to be well back in 2012, (Posted on 09/10/2012, revised 02/17/2015).

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=866.msg14752#msg14752
I also found this link in Russian (I translated with DeepL), dated October-November 2013 and which does not make any significant changes it seems to me.
http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/sharavinkontakt.shtml



Reply #103
Also, please note.  Some of Askinadzi's thoughts in the unknown interview oppose his thoughts in this interview:

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0

(Mainly he differs on the theory of murder/killers.)

Indeed there is another interview which seems to date from 2018, which would have given Askinadzi 6 years to "think a lot" and conclude that the 9 hikers were murdered.


Natalya Varsegova and Vladimir Askindazi

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.msg1451#msg1451

To hide the truth about the murder of Dyatlov group, the authorities came up with a missile version.
       Authors Nikolay Varsegov and Natalya Varsegova

https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=3&rbid=18461

Why did you decide that on there was a murder on the pass ?

Vladimir Mihaylovich  Askinadzi ==>
 « I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why  they were murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.





Me too "I thought a lot about this" and I (slowly) came to a criminological theory (more rigorously an explanatory hypothesis) which is able to answer easily to
WHO ?  -  WHY ?  -  HOW  ? 

This theory was naturally formed by gathering the individual contributions of 3 main authors who are : Eduard Tumanov, Per Inge Oestmoen, Aleks Kandr.

 Therefore, in recognition and in tribute to its 3 main pillars or 3 founding fathers I have chosen the name of TOK theory.

TOK theory = Eduard Tumanov + Per Inge Oestmoen + Aleks Kandr =  murder or relentless Altercation on the pass

Obviously there are many other posts on this forum that are involved in the development of TOK. But those do not contain as much development as the 3 founding fathers (T, O and K). There are also texts and forums in Russian (difficult for myself since DeepL is necessary for me) and articles in French language of French sovietologists.

But first a warning: TOK is for those who are not repelled by criminal theories ( Криминальные ).

As WAB said: «...You need a very large amount of text to explain your position. Especially considering the fact that many positions need to be explained in great detail, because they are not understood on a domestic level.......... I'm not a writer, I'm a researcher, I want the physical result of what happened, not the number of letters on a paper ...». Naturally the real presentation of TOKwill be quite lengthy...

Nevertheless if you were interested and would like to have a first feel of TOK now, you may read the following URL.   
                                                   

       T  --->  https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg4945#msg4945
          --->  + some videos on this site with sound in Russian (hard for me to follow).

       O  --->  https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=325

       K  --->  http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
          --->  https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0


And, you may also have a glimpse into the mental process by which the TOK theory has progressively become clearer in my mind by reading some of my previous posts :

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=714.msg16051#msg16051      ( Ivdellag breaks in 1959; Reply #3 :May 17, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16275#msg16275      ( Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; Reply #17 :June 10, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg16299#msg16299      ( Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death; Reply #46 :June 20, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg16307#msg16307      ( Altercation on the pas; Reply #60 :June 23, 2021 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=961.msg16384#msg16384      ( The Tent was cut to make it useless; Reply #1 :July 16, 2021 )

What a shame !  Finally, after the indecisions of a long engagement, I am now married to the most beautiful and intellectually appealing of all the explanatory hypotheses of the DPI : the TOK theory.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

September 05, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Reply #118
Offline

Paf



 Naturally the real presentation of TOKwill be quite lengthy...


I'll be following !
There are a few things I can't make sens of with any existing murder theory, but I'll let you all chances to convince me.
 

September 07, 2021, 01:08:55 PM
Reply #119
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss



      To make a really valid presentation of the TOK theory it would be necessary at least to take into account (on September 7, 2021) the 16387 Posts, and the 270 members (out of 681) having sent at least 1 message.
Without counting the 11 Guests who are less easy to retrieve: SteveCalley - tenne - tekumze - Glacon - Veed - mja Mahé - Ian Jones - DAXXY - trekker - CR3012 - eurocentric ....
In fact it is a big job, and as a lazy person I am not sure I will ever get through it. In the meantime, here are a few little disparate comments.


°°°°

      General Discussion - Rational or Irrational...What do you think? Why move the bodies;          Reply #15

They were experienced mountainers. Anybody going for a trek longer than 5 days has ideas about what could happen, and (partials) solutions. You've heard stories, made your own on "how you would react", found partial/inadequate/adequate/... solutions in advance.
...................................
When alone, anyone can lose cold blood, I agree. But for everybody to panic at the same time , even just the majority of the group, it would take a lot.
One panic : another one calm him down, without even knowing what the panic is about. Then when he know and start to panic as well, the first one is back to cold blood and can handle him.
....................

Totally agree: From what we know of the 9 hikers, all the explanations by panicking are implausible.


°°°°

In order to eventually be convinced one day by TOK, the first and most difficult mental stage is to admit the idea of the criminal nature of PGD. Thus this first stage seems to have been taken, for example, by :
•••
      Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death   ---> Reply #47

I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one. Besides multiple traces indicating presence of someone else in the area of their death (putees, knife sheath, belt strap, spoon..), the hard evidence is clear: Autopsy reports. Almost all of them had injuries on the side or back of their head. Even Igor Dyatlov - this is not stated in the autopsy report, but is visible on one of the photos from the morgue.
......................

•••
       General Discussion > Why move the bodies      --->      Reply #16

You have to look at the injuries. These people were attacked, by someone.. For example.. Igor has machining   wounds on both sides of his face.. A tree falling would have smashed his face and  nose.. yet there is nothing. Then, most all of them had head wounds.. again, some matching..  3 people with matching U shaped wounds..  This was an attack..

The first stage to admit mentally the idea of the criminal nature was also clearly completed by :

••• NightLurker :  «...Each were doomed with their injuries but hypothermia set in before death...»

••• hoosiergose :  «...the Occam’s Razor doctrine would lean towards murder. (calculated murder)...»
«...I still think this was murder - that is listening to my heart of hearts -a genuine  gut feeling- too many unexplained  injuries- Someone helped them die that night...»


••• armyeng :  «...Attackers likely at this point did not bother continuing pursuit or search (at night), but waited at or near the camp site for them to try and return, the group knew this, and this is why they did not move back and re-occupy the camp. Attackers knew by morning they would likely be all dead...»
«...Likely culprits:  Gulag guards...»
 

••• Nordlander :  «...You can see I favor the murder theory...»
«...the ravine four....I think it's more likely the attackers ... were jumped on them...»
«...So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces...»

«...the killers were doing when the hikers walked a mile downhill to the cedar, I think the assailants were the ones who frogmarched them, probably on short skis or snowshoes. There's one military-type boot print visible in one photo, and the residue of a ski track in another.../i][/b]

••• Liyla79 :  «...They were killed, by someone. And not within the group...»
«... I believe the murderers came back to confirm the deaths, and saw that they had survived the gas. Which is why they group had time to build fires and the den. They then realised they had to kill them, one by one...»


••• sharp55 :  «...I would bet they would also concede to the fact it could also be demonstrated they were murdered and simply not just hypothermia...»

••• Angel1 :  «...a retired Russian criminologist says murder and by professional killers.  I agree...»

••• ...............................................


°°°°

      General Discussion - Rational or Irrational...What do you think? Why move the bodies;          Reply #15

One girl seems to be confused, even before the deadly events. ............

The girl in question is Lyuda Dubinina, 20 years old, and she is not known to be mentally weak.

Galina Kiryanovna Batalova's opinion :
 • «...Lyuda proved herself to be a wise, firm, thoughtful and fair leader. She was always attentive to us, the beginners, and helped us in everything.....»
 • «...She was so excited that she was approved to go with Dyatlov and was kind of inspired, anxious, training, getting ready. She was a strong person, both physically and spiritually....»

In any case, she should know that in hiking unforeseen setbacks can occur since in summer 1958 she was shot in one leg.


 ( Note that it was probably a small-calibre bullet or even just a hunting pellet, as she had no significant after-effects afterwards. )


°°°°

For TOK, the short sojourn of the hikers in Vizhay (January 25-26, 1959), is at the same time decisive and embarrassing because of the too small number of indications

It is BottledBrunette who has sensed the right track thanks to her fine female psychological intuition.

Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death August 26, 2019, 08:36:05 AM --> Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg6905#msg6905

 • This is not the complete text of BottledBrunette, I removed, without scruples, the "unnecessary words" to emphasize his idea:

«... Lyuda was  sexually assaulted by ...  the men...»

[Young girls]«...who either are sexually assaulted, either by rape or attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, their personalities change....»

[That girl]«...undergo profound psychological changes in their personalities.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc....»

[Dubinina]«...said something what was construed as being above her place or snotty, what have you, to one of the men, and he tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow....»

«...that was why she wrote she was so angry as heck and she felt horrible, the place was horrible.....»   

«...she thought she would get over it, but, didn't, and that's why she was so 'hostile' and not wanting to participate... stopping any kind of writing in her personal diaries...

«...the man [sponsor, client], with the help of his buddies [the 3 hired murderers], came back to finish her off.....» 

A slightly different idea about the decisive time spent in Vizhay:
Georgi  : Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death, August 12, 2020, 02:47:57 AM  --->  Reply #25
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10467#msg10467

«...She might have seen something she shouldn't have seen, or recognized someone who wanted to remain anonymous and her subconscious was bothering her because she might not have even realized what was wrong. What we know is that something was eating at her, what we can infer from the fact that she was on the hike is that her usual behaviour during hikes was professional and appropriate or she wouldn't have been invited on this once....»

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.