Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement
Measuring contamination in biological samples - Tables 1 and 3
Ryan:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on February 20, 2020, 02:42:51 PM --- • Indeed, in the vicinity of Sverdlosk, during the years 1958-1959, there were many research, studies and production activities involving radioactive elements and some containment failures and radioactive leaks were likely if not inevitable.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but much of this, like the Mayak accident, was in the form of fission products, which would include Cs-137, a beta and gamma emitter. That no gammas were detected implies either that the contamination was primarily beta-only (which excludes the common mix of nuclear fission products) or, much less likely, that the dosimetrist did not have gamma detection instruments sensitive enough to detect the gamma dose rate accompanying such a small beta dose rate.
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on February 20, 2020, 02:42:51 PM --- • Moreover, it is reasonable to assume that some of the students at the UPI were normally required to carry out practical exercises with radioactive products during which the maximum precautions according to current standards were not taken. This was the mentality of the time in all laboratories and educational establishments throughout the world.
--- End quote ---
I really have to disagree here. University students aren't going to work with specialized radioisotopes as part of their general education. I might believe this for Kolevatov, as he was studying nuclear physics. But Dubinina was studying engineering and economics. Thibeaux-Brignolle graduated in civil engineering and was working in construction. And Zolotaryov was a tourism instructor who graduated from a Minsk physical education school in 1950.
All four of them were wearing contaminated clothing. Contamination just doesn't randomly spread from one person to another without some specific mechanism, and I don't see how that could happen here.
Manti:
So may I ask what is it that you are suggesting?
If I understand correctly:
The test of internal tissues was carried out correctly and the conclusion of no significant radiation above background is correct. But there was external contamination and on all the ravine 4 and you don't see how this could have happened?
Ryan:
--- Quote from: Manti on February 21, 2021, 08:27:06 PM ---So may I ask what is it that you are suggesting?
If I understand correctly:
The test of internal tissues was carried out correctly and the conclusion of no significant radiation above background is correct. But there was external contamination and on all the ravine 4 and you don't see how this could have happened?
--- End quote ---
There is no contradiction between a lack of radioisotopes above background in a person’s tissues and a presence of radioisotopes well above background on a person’s clothing.
Radioisotopes primarily get into a person’s tissues by eating contaminated food or breathing contaminated air. No lung tissues of any of the hikers was analyzed, so we have no way of knowing if their lungs were contaminated, say, by breathing in radioactive dust. But the lack or activity in tissue and bone is perfectly normal.
Yes, I can’t see an obvious way all four people in the ravine were contaminated by a pure beta emitter. This isn’t something common. Uranium, thorium, and radium don’t qualify. Neither does the mess of fission products produced by a nuclear weapon or a nuclear reactor accident, or a nuclear fuel processing accident like what happened at Chelyabinsk.
Pure beta emitters like Sr-90 are specifically bred inside reactors by neutron irradiation of targets or are separated chemically from spent nuclear fuel. Average people will not possess this. Even radioactive check sources containing Sr-90, used for testing Geiger counters, are going to be embedded in a resin so they don’t pose a contamination risk. So how can four hikers’ clothing get contaminated with something so specific and unusual?
This is why I tend to think the military has to be involved. If, say, they detonated a dirty bomb in a test that dispersed Sr-90, that would be a good way multiple peoples’ clothing would be contaminated with it.
KFinn:
--- Quote from: Ryan on February 21, 2021, 10:39:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: Manti on February 21, 2021, 08:27:06 PM ---So may I ask what is it that you are suggesting?
If I understand correctly:
The test of internal tissues was carried out correctly and the conclusion of no significant radiation above background is correct. But there was external contamination and on all the ravine 4 and you don't see how this could have happened?
--- End quote ---
There is no contradiction between a lack of radioisotopes above background in a person’s tissues and a presence of radioisotopes well above background on a person’s clothing.
Radioisotopes primarily get into a person’s tissues by eating contaminated food or breathing contaminated air. No lung tissues of any of the hikers was analyzed, so we have no way of knowing if their lungs were contaminated, say, by breathing in radioactive dust. But the lack or activity in tissue and bone is perfectly normal.
Yes, I can’t see an obvious way all four people in the ravine were contaminated by a pure beta emitter. This isn’t something common. Uranium, thorium, and radium don’t qualify. Neither does the mess of fission products produced by a nuclear weapon or a nuclear reactor accident, or a nuclear fuel processing accident like what happened at Chelyabinsk.
Pure beta emitters like Sr-90 are specifically bred inside reactors by neutron irradiation of targets or are separated chemically from spent nuclear fuel. Average people will not possess this. Even radioactive check sources containing Sr-90, used for testing Geiger counters, are going to be embedded in a resin so they don’t pose a contamination risk. So how can four hikers’ clothing get contaminated with something so specific and unusual?
This is why I tend to think the military has to be involved. If, say, they detonated a dirty bomb in a test that dispersed Sr-90, that would be a good way multiple peoples’ clothing would be contaminated with it.
--- End quote ---
I'm not certain I would go so far as to say the Russians have a good history with safe handling of nuclear products. It wasn't even fifteen years ago when the men who poisoned Litvinenko carried a leaking metal can of polonium around Britain, leaving hotels, airplanes, restaurants and taxis contaminated before they flushed what was left down a toilet... Back in 1959, even we Americans weren't all that great with safe handling practices.
Ryan:
I don’t doubt that contamination can occur. But that alone doesn’t account for the data. For contamination from industry or the university to account for what we see in the case files, then all of the following need to be true:
1. The person was specifically working with a pure beta emitter like Sr-90 and contaminated their clothing. Fission products, e.g. cleanup after the Kyshtym disaster, would not match with the results from the report.
2. The person managed to bring their contaminated clothing on the hike. Keep in mind that the clothes worn at work or university may not be suitable to take on a ski expedition.
3. There would need to be a mechanism where the contaminated clothing managed to contaminate 9 different pieces of clothing worn by the 4 hikers found in the ravine.
This is why I think it is largely impossible. Multiple pieces of clothing from one person might be contaminated if they were all washed in the same washing machine, or were all packed together in the same rucksack. But the contaminated clothing didn’t all come from one person.
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