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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by GlennM on Today at 07:36:52 AM »

As I understand it, the hikers cut and levelled snow for their tent. This created a ledge. Their tent used the ledge to help block wind and driven snow. It was the buildup of snow on the lip of the ledge which triggered the slide. This means that there was a sufficient depth of snow for the hikers to make their "L" shaped cut. They did not dig into soil.  The vertical cut exposed slabs of different hardness. From the images of the tent, I too note the tent poles and ski poles standing. For me, this suggests a slumping rather than a sliding snow movement.


The angle which everyone wishes to debate appears related to the entire rise of the slope at elevation 880 on 1079. I think this misses the point.  Rather, it is the angle made between the top and bottom of the snow ledge which is critical. I contend that any cut of any height makes a slump a possibiliy. From the evidence of the rescuer photos and the hikers photos, there was a ledge of sufficient height to account for the snow that rested on the tent.

Again, I believe the hikers did a textbook response to their crisis. The problem was they underestimated the distance to the treeline, nor could they predict the duration of the bad weather. The clock ran out on them during which time all subsequent injuries were sustained.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Axelrod on Today at 05:22:48 AM »

In general, the reason for Kuryakov’s dissertation was that when the first rescuers arrived at the site, they did not take photo of the tent. Now only Karelin says (he is still alive) that there were no signs of avalanche presence.
In Chernyshov’s description (see his witness testimony) it seems to be written that there were ski poles around the tent.
How can there be an avalanche if ski poles stick out half a meter around the tent?
Tempalov saw that there were no traces of an avalanche there, but did not take photographs for the others.
And now Kuryakov can defend his dissertations...

A separate interesting question: if there was no avalanche in February 1959, then could it ever be there? This is the question of this topic. An avalanche is only needed there to explain the absence of Bigfoot (Yeti), gnomes and other things in restricted set of versions.

Returning to the topic questions: I don’t think that this place on Earth (with multiple stones and human intact place)  is one of those places where avalanches could occur at slope of 15 degrees.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by GlennM on April 15, 2024, 09:03:09 PM »

Partog, thank you for helping  me make my point. Appreciated.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 15, 2024, 06:11:43 PM »

Not heard the version of Arctic dwarfs yet!  thumb1but everything goes ...

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Partorg on April 15, 2024, 05:19:35 PM »

First, the actual location of the tent is a mattter of dispute

The location of the tent was established with an accuracy of ±5 meters in 2013 by detecting some small objects that in 1959 could have been lost in the immediate vicinity of tent.
For example, the fastening parts of the “baskets” of ski poles, which at an early stage of the search, rescuers removed from the poles in order to use the latter as avalanche probes. These “baskets”, removed and thrown into the snow next to the tent, which was moved a couple of meters up, are visible in some photos. In addition to them, other small items were found that belonged to the Dyatlovites and apparently fell out of the Tent when it was moved. The 2019 Pokurorsky expedition ignored the exact coordinates of the Tent Place provided to them by the authors of the finds and determined its own, which is located approximately 115 meters north of the true one.

A survey of the slope profile above tent place carried out at 2.5 m intervals in the winter of 2014, shows a snow surface steepness of 16 to 20°. Methodological materials on safety in the mountains, reference and scientific literature on avalanches say that sometimes, under certain weather conditions, snow movement is possible even on slopes 15°

Of course this should not turn anyone from believing in super-secret missiles wandering over the Urals, in KGB death squads, in testing vacuum and neutron bombs, in the invasion of Arctic dwarfs and the outrages of yetis.

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General Discussion / Re: Last two days of the Dyatlov group: 5. Fatal afternoon for Rustem and Zinaida

« Last post by KathleenDSmith1 on April 15, 2024, 05:04:10 PM »

Everyone and Teddy:

I last two photo's of Dyatlov's Group, that we are aware is...snowy/windy and all 9 hikers tired and exhausted...not enough wood for the stove to be assemble?... I believe that all 9 hikers were killed/murdered that evening/morning and remember I also believe that all 9 hikers bodies were staged in lined with the tent and the woods, as if all 9 hikers didn't know what they were doing and exposed themselves to hypothermia....All 9 hikers were experienced ... I do believe " Pashin" had two days to staged the scene????

Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith

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General Discussion / Re: What Semyon was Holding

« Last post by KathleenDSmith1 on April 15, 2024, 04:50:10 PM »

Everyone and Teddy:

Unable to find the photo where the searcher took the notepad out of Semyon's hand (unbelievable) but I do have a photo of the original search and has his hand to his ear????


 I found what image/photo in the movie " an unknown compelling force"...
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 15, 2024, 01:18:17 PM »

Hi  Arjan,

Igor is in a position that other hypothermia victims have been found in.( I think it's called the boxer postion) .

I can't disagree about the two Yuri's possibly being moved shortly after death before freezing. They are in a relaxed position where gravity seems to have played it's part. Possible paradoxical undressing seems to fit but difficult to tell. Oddly enough a balaclava was reported to have been found at the ceder. Strange that it was not used and discarded.

There's also speculation that what is reported as Postmortem lividity is actually frostbite erythema. I think rigor Mortis happens before but we have the complexity of freezing/ frostbite thrown in to the mix along with thawing.

I have read ideas about the flashlights being used as beacons but that has a number of variables too.

I would say that they bodies lay where and how they fell. The two Yuri's may have been moved by others in the group after some sort of survival effort at the ravine/ ceder. Without some hard evidence of outsiders , I can only conclude hypothermia.

The Mansi were in the area within 1 km after the incident according to reports of trails when herding their moose/ deer.

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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...

« Last post by Arjan on April 15, 2024, 11:57:00 AM »

The head wounds mentioned in the post mortem report of Rustem has puzzled my for a long time.

Of course it could by violence by humans in one way or another, but I only investigate the option that:
- no outsiders had entered the area until the two search parties had arrived
- no internal violence had taken place within the Dyatlov group.

When exploring a fall: there had been two situation where this fall may had taken place;

1. During the ascend from the storage to the tent area: the angle of the ascend poses a high risk when a person will start a slide.
Zinaida may have been wounded during this ascend (abrasion similar like being hit with a baton: she may have been stopped by a small tree after a slide)
Rustem may/might have been stuck between two objects (ground/stone and another group member)

2. When trying to recover Lyudmila from the ravine: the surface had been icy, because Zinaida and Rustem had walked on socks.
Rustem may have hit the bottom and Zinaida had fallen on top of him.

Remark: Lyumila had not been placed next to the other three group members in the ravine.

Of course no proof: but it makes sense within the timeline for the last two days that I have drafted.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Arjan on April 15, 2024, 11:41:34 AM »

Dear Ziljoe,

The photo of the posture of Hypothermia - from the website Australiawide - is very probably staged: a living person has person has taken this posture.
I have purposely choosen a staged photo in order to avoid unnecessary distress of group members.

An additional indication that Yuri Dor and Rustem had been moved - after they had lost consciousness for the last time - is provided in the post mortem reports:
- Yuri Dor (found face down): 'Crimson purple post-mortem spots are located on the back of the neck, torso and extremities'
- Rustem (found face down): 'Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the rear surface of the neck, torso and limbs'.

Personally I take into account that Rustem had been turned face down after the process of post mortem lividity had stopped and rigor mortem had started.

Personally I take into account that Igor - after loosing consciousness for the last time - had been carried by two person;
- one person (with both handpalms facing to the front) holding him under his armpits
- the second person holding him at his knees.

You are right victims of hypothermia don't end up in one position:
- some hide curled behind cupboard at relative mild cold conditions
- others are found in a posture like Zinaida.

On the other hand, not many victims had been found neatly next to each other like Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri.

It is hard to estimate the body postures of the four found in the ravine, because personally I take into account that they had already been partly?/fully? defrosted  in the ravine at the beginning of May. No information of post mortem lividity is mentioned on the post mortem reports, because it had already dissolved?

THis information is crucial for solving the case, because:
- if group members had left together from the tent area, non of the group members had been able to perform this kind of displacement of other group members
- if two (or more) group members had been displaced the bodies, these two (or more) group members had been far better protected against hypothermia than the others. In the area of the tent, cedar, ravine there had been only one place that had provided sufficient protection. This place is the tent. Personally I take into account that Zinaida and Rustem had survived this night - fatal for the others - in the tent. Other hint: the two flashlights had served a purpose as beacon and means of communication.