Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clacon on March 15, 2019, 10:05:55 AM
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Does anyone else here think that the subzero temperature and decomposition therein (and in snow) had anything to do with the lack of tissue damage below the epidermis?
Everyone knows that there were superficial epidermal wounds yes but the terrible internal skeletal damage (on the Ravine 4 and even the skull of Nikolay - bc there was some hemorrhaging in the tissues of Rustem's head) sustained without damage to the tissue covering these bones on nearly EVERY body is very mysterious. Surely it has something to do with what is common amongst them: that they died in the cold snow? Perhaps the freezing of the tissues after a quick death would prevent blood leaking into those tissues or the tissue itself froze upon death, somehow preventing any damage?
The other thing I'm thinking has to do with a really bad joke about using insulation (a phone book) to absorb the force of um....violent methods of interrogation or beating someone up, to minimize the appearance of damage on the victim.
Do you think this could have anything to do with lack of tissue damage?? The only insulation I can think of though is layers of clothing to absorb the impact of a hit. I don't think this applies to the broken ribs of the 2 in the ravine, but could possibly apply instead to the skull fractures.
I think something of immense force and energy (like a blast) is the only thing that can account for the rib (skeletal) damage, but am unsure as to what type of energy could do that and not damage the tissue covering the bone. Also unsure if perhaps snow acted as an insulator, absorbing some of the force??
ALSO unsure if a quick death in frigid temperatures and decomposing in snow is maybe the answer to lack of tissue damage.
P.S. Was looking at the skull fracture on Nikolay's head again and it DOES look circular. Like he was hit in the head with something. The coroner said he couldn't have been hit with a rock or whatever because of the lack of underlying tissue damage. However he was wearing a fur hat (insulation)??
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Does anyone else here think that the subzero temperature and decomposition therein (and in snow) had anything to do with the lack of tissue damage below the epidermis?
Everyone knows that there were superficial epidermal wounds yes but the terrible internal skeletal damage (on the Ravine 4 and even the skull of Nikolay - bc there was some hemorrhaging in the tissues of Rustem's head) sustained without damage to the tissue covering these bones on nearly EVERY body is very mysterious. Surely it has something to do with what is common amongst them: that they died in the cold snow? Perhaps the freezing of the tissues after a quick death would prevent blood leaking into those tissues or the tissue itself froze upon death, somehow preventing any damage?
The other thing I'm thinking has to do with a really bad joke about using insulation (a phone book) to absorb the force of um....violent methods of interrogation or beating someone up, to minimize the appearance of damage on the victim.
Do you think this could have anything to do with lack of tissue damage?? The only insulation I can think of though is layers of clothing to absorb the impact of a hit. I don't think this applies to the broken ribs of the 2 in the ravine, but could possibly apply instead to the skull fractures.
I think something of immense force and energy (like a blast) is the only thing that can account for the rib (skeletal) damage, but am unsure as to what type of energy could do that and not damage the tissue covering the bone. Also unsure if perhaps snow acted as an insulator, absorbing some of the force??
ALSO unsure if a quick death in frigid temperatures and decomposing in snow is maybe the answer to lack of tissue damage.
P.S. Was looking at the skull fracture on Nikolay's head again and it DOES look circular. Like he was hit in the head with something. The coroner said he couldn't have been hit with a rock or whatever because of the lack of underlying tissue damage. However he was wearing a fur hat (insulation)??
I suppose this is one of the contentious issues in the Dyatlov Case. Sub zero temperatures and Decomposition. You will find plenty of discussion in other Posts in the Forum about this. Any way lack of tissue damage. There was damage to bodies both internally and externally. But the skin and muscle of some of the bodies does not seem to be the way it should be given the serious internal injuries. No one knows why. Some bodies did have skin damage though. Bruises or whatever. And some bodies had scratches or cuts to the skin. So its a bit of a mixture really.
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Does anyone else here think that the subzero temperature and decomposition therein (and in snow) had anything to do with the lack of tissue damage below the epidermis?
Everyone knows that there were superficial epidermal wounds yes but the terrible internal skeletal damage (on the Ravine 4 and even the skull of Nikolay - bc there was some hemorrhaging in the tissues of Rustem's head) sustained without damage to the tissue covering these bones on nearly EVERY body is very mysterious. Surely it has something to do with what is common amongst them: that they died in the cold snow? Perhaps the freezing of the tissues after a quick death would prevent blood leaking into those tissues or the tissue itself froze upon death, somehow preventing any damage?
The other thing I'm thinking has to do with a really bad joke about using insulation (a phone book) to absorb the force of um....violent methods of interrogation or beating someone up, to minimize the appearance of damage on the victim.
Do you think this could have anything to do with lack of tissue damage?? The only insulation I can think of though is layers of clothing to absorb the impact of a hit. I don't think this applies to the broken ribs of the 2 in the ravine, but could possibly apply instead to the skull fractures.
I think something of immense force and energy (like a blast) is the only thing that can account for the rib (skeletal) damage, but am unsure as to what type of energy could do that and not damage the tissue covering the bone. Also unsure if perhaps snow acted as an insulator, absorbing some of the force??
ALSO unsure if a quick death in frigid temperatures and decomposing in snow is maybe the answer to lack of tissue damage.
P.S. Was looking at the skull fracture on Nikolay's head again and it DOES look circular. Like he was hit in the head with something. The coroner said he couldn't have been hit with a rock or whatever because of the lack of underlying tissue damage. However he was wearing a fur hat (insulation)??
Good question. Cold has been argued as a factor - the body constricts blood flow in cold temps.However the evidence is that the ravine 4 were in their den when hit (Askinadzi insisted they were found an arms length away) and Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket and his jacket unfastened. So it's reasonable to say that it was relatively warm in the shelter of the den. Semyon had ample experience of surviving the cold in WW2. Also Rustem displays normal bruising on each side of the skull.So imo for the ravine 4 the phone book was snow. Something big and powerful drove snow ahead of it and that did it. Ball lightning would be a fit kewl1
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Does anyone else here think that the subzero temperature and decomposition therein (and in snow) had anything to do with the lack of tissue damage below the epidermis?
Everyone knows that there were superficial epidermal wounds yes but the terrible internal skeletal damage (on the Ravine 4 and even the skull of Nikolay - bc there was some hemorrhaging in the tissues of Rustem's head) sustained without damage to the tissue covering these bones on nearly EVERY body is very mysterious. Surely it has something to do with what is common amongst them: that they died in the cold snow? Perhaps the freezing of the tissues after a quick death would prevent blood leaking into those tissues or the tissue itself froze upon death, somehow preventing any damage?
The other thing I'm thinking has to do with a really bad joke about using insulation (a phone book) to absorb the force of um....violent methods of interrogation or beating someone up, to minimize the appearance of damage on the victim.
Do you think this could have anything to do with lack of tissue damage?? The only insulation I can think of though is layers of clothing to absorb the impact of a hit. I don't think this applies to the broken ribs of the 2 in the ravine, but could possibly apply instead to the skull fractures.
I think something of immense force and energy (like a blast) is the only thing that can account for the rib (skeletal) damage, but am unsure as to what type of energy could do that and not damage the tissue covering the bone. Also unsure if perhaps snow acted as an insulator, absorbing some of the force??
ALSO unsure if a quick death in frigid temperatures and decomposing in snow is maybe the answer to lack of tissue damage.
P.S. Was looking at the skull fracture on Nikolay's head again and it DOES look circular. Like he was hit in the head with something. The coroner said he couldn't have been hit with a rock or whatever because of the lack of underlying tissue damage. However he was wearing a fur hat (insulation)??
Looking at the rib fractures and analysing them from a materials and mechanics perspective IMO the most likely cause of these fractures was a fall from about 5 metres onto relatively flat ground. I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly. In other words a fast impact. Human beings can't deliver this level of force. Also if you look at the rib fractures, they formed along clean lines and both Semyon and Luda have fllaid chests with two fracture lines acros one set of ribs. To me this indicates that the ribs were rapidly over stressed such that the breaking stress was achieve in more than one position on the ribs. If the force had been applied slowly,then only one point on the ribs is likely to break as the first break relieves the stress on the second point.
Also if you look at Lyuda's other injuries, crushed nose, damage to soft tissues of face and large bruise on femur it seems like she fell flat on her front, while Semyon landed more on his right side. Semyon also has a large laceration exposing his skull on the right side of his head. Thibo's skull is a bit more difficult, but could have Been cause by a fall too. One of the interesting questions that I think about is if they did all fall why? I can't see why they would all fall unless they cognitive abilities had been affected. All of them were well padded with clothes which would also spread out the forces.
The cold may explain the lack of any obvious tissue damage. Its a possibility. The histology report says that there is no cellular reaction which I find puzzling. The cellular reaction is the normal response of cells that have been damaged and where the blood supply (oxygen) supply to the cells is cut off. A lack of cellular reaction would suggest that the damage may have occurred after they had already died, or it may suggest that there was already a Significant lack of oxygen in the blood when the damage occurred. A lack of oxygen in the blood would also lead to poor cognitive function and possibly unconsciousness.
Just a thought on whether the injuries were caused by a blast. A blast is capable of causing those injuries yes. But If they we're standing up when they were hit by this blast it would also be capable of propelling them upto 50 metres horizontally and that should have caused further significant secondary injuries which don't seem to be present. The blast would have hit them causing the crushing injuries but would also accelerate them. They would then need to decelerate by either bumping along the ground or hitting something more solid. For a fall the initial acceleration doesn't result in any injuries. It is only the deceleration that results in the one set of injuries.
Regards
Star man
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. The 2 to 2.5 tonnes force is estimated using the material strength of bone with a laterally applied force which is reasonably well documented. The value used was 50 Mega Newtons per square metre, which means that a single rib should be able to support between 200 and 250 kg before it breaks.
Regards
Star mam
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. The 2 to 2.5 tonnes force is estimated using the material strength of bone with a laterally applied force which is reasonably well documented. The value used was 50 Mega Newtons per square metre, which means that a single rib should be able to support between 200 and 250 kg before it breaks.
Regards
Star mam
The problem with the fall theory is that the ravine has to be empty of snow at the end of Jan but full at the end of Feb? Which is (very) improbable. I think WAB's view is correct that they died under the snow. So this makes crushing my favourite theory and explains the lack of tissue damage and limb fractures. Also given Lyudmila's double chest fracture we seem to have a very high energy event that can't be explained by normal forces such as a 5m drop or say 2 m3 of snow dropping 1m. So I opt for an overhead explosion or something very heavy rolling over them.
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. The 2 to 2.5 tonnes force is estimated using the material strength of bone with a laterally applied force which is reasonably well documented. The value used was 50 Mega Newtons per square metre, which means that a single rib should be able to support between 200 and 250 kg before it breaks.
Regards
Star mam
The problem with the fall theory is that the ravine has to be empty of snow at the end of Jan but full at the end of Feb? Which is (very) improbable. I think WAB's view is correct that they died under the snow. So this makes crushing my favourite theory and explains the lack of tissue damage and limb fractures. Also given Lyudmila's double chest fracture we seem to have a very high energy event that can't be explained by normal forces such as a 5m drop or say 2 m3 of snow dropping 1m. So I opt for an overhead explosion or something very heavy rolling over them.
Just to add - if the ravine is empty of snow how do you build a den? So the existence of the den, together with the probability that the ravine had been full of snow from say October onwards rules out falling in situ?
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Nah.... Im starting to think it never snows much in the UK. whacky1
You can easily have a scenario where wind has built up the snow on one side of the ravine and swept the bottom bare.
(https://news.images.itv.com/image/file/1493155/stream_img.jpg)
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In my opinion, the den is irrelevant because it likely never existed. When in doubt, throw it out.
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Nah.... Im starting to think it never snows much in the UK. whacky1
You can easily have a scenario where wind has built up the snow on one side of the ravine and swept the bottom bare.
(https://news.images.itv.com/image/file/1493155/stream_img.jpg)
Well i've skied in the Alps, Colorado and Canada so seen a few snow structures... quiet1 . Also your photo might involve the use of a snow plough.. lol2
You're arguing a possibility, i'm arguing the probability that in the sub polar Urals, the ravine was full of snow from say October.
Now if the den was constructed by "others" then that's a different narrative.
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Mmmkay..... lets beat this dead horse some more.
Tell me, how exactly did the search party know there was a few twigs arranged in a certain pattern 5 meters under snow, and how did the dig down to verify it with one attempt and laser accuracy?
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Mmmkay..... lets beat this dead horse some more.
Tell me, how exactly did the search party know there was a few twigs arranged in a certain pattern 5 meters under snow, and how did the dig down to verify it with one attempt and laser accuracy?
From memory it's a combination of :-- the mansi hunters seeing loose twigs etc nearby and advising to dig there
- they found Lyudmila with a ski probe.
I don't know which came first..
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Mmmkay..... lets beat this dead horse some more.
Tell me, how exactly did the search party know there was a few twigs arranged in a certain pattern 5 meters under snow, and how did the dig down to verify it with one attempt and laser accuracy?
From memory it's a combination of :-- the mansi hunters seeing loose twigs etc nearby and advising to dig there
- they found Lyudmila with a ski probe.
I don't know which came first..
and it wasn't 5m, more like 3.5m?
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Mmmkay..... lets beat this dead horse some more.
Tell me, how exactly did the search party know there was a few twigs arranged in a certain pattern 5 meters under snow, and how did the dig down to verify it with one attempt and laser accuracy?
From memory it's a combination of :-- the mansi hunters seeing loose twigs etc nearby and advising to dig there
- they found Lyudmila with a ski probe.
I don't know which came first..
Finding Lyudmila with an avalanche probe fitted with a flesh hook has zero bearing regarding how they miraculously knew the exact pinpoint location to find a few random twigs buried meters under snow. If you believe they had some type of super human locating vision, then why the pole hook to find 4 bodies?
The broken adolescent trees were not but a few feet out of the ground, they were observed because they were NOT in deep snow. They were along the path between the ravine and cedar. This also shows how snow can build in certain areas while be shallow or relatively bare in others..... due to the wind.
Again... tell me how they were able to go some distance away from and shallow snow depth area having exposed adolescent trees, to a very deep linear ravine, dig that deep down, and strike paydirt with the first attempt?
You do know they gathered the clothing found in between the ravine and the cedar, and staged them in the 'den' hole floor.... right? This means they exactly pinpointed a couple of twigs in a pattern several meters under snow. Miraculous indeed.
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Does your favorite book tell you anything about how the den floor was "reconstructed" by the search party?
I call BS the den ever existed.
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They may have fallen at the ravine, but they may have fallen out of the cedar, or from a ridge? I don't think we should automatically assume they fell at the ravine.
Regards
Star man
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I don't think we should automatically assume they fell at the ravine.
Regards
Star man
Murder theory?
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I don't think we should automatically assume they fell at the ravine.
Regards
Star man
Murder theory?
I'm saying it was murder. They may have all fell together off a ridge as they approached the ravine, and the Kolevatov moved them. It's still relatively open. I do think that could not have been moved very far though. Mao if they did fall it is likely to have been not too far away.
Regards
Star man
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The distance from the cedar to the den is only like 75 meters IIRC. Someone can easily be dragged in snow that far.
May work up a sweat in the processes.
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. The 2 to 2.5 tonnes force is estimated using the material strength of bone with a laterally applied force which is reasonably well documented. The value used was 50 Mega Newtons per square metre, which means that a single rib should be able to support between 200 and 250 kg before it breaks.
Regards
Star mam
I have a Volvo. If it fell on someone you would get Tissue / Muscle / Bone damage. If that much weight of SNOW fell on someone the result may be different. But other factors are at play, whats the AREA of this LOAD ! ? Is it concentrated in a few square meters or is it it spread out over a larger area ! ? I have put it elsewhere in this Forum that serious Avalanches have not CRUSHED people the way that DUBININA was crushed. She was crushed in a way that may have suggested a very large BEAR.
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. The 2 to 2.5 tonnes force is estimated using the material strength of bone with a laterally applied force which is reasonably well documented. The value used was 50 Mega Newtons per square metre, which means that a single rib should be able to support between 200 and 250 kg before it breaks.
Regards
Star mam
The problem with the fall theory is that the ravine has to be empty of snow at the end of Jan but full at the end of Feb? Which is (very) improbable. I think WAB's view is correct that they died under the snow. So this makes crushing my favourite theory and explains the lack of tissue damage and limb fractures. Also given Lyudmila's double chest fracture we seem to have a very high energy event that can't be explained by normal forces such as a 5m drop or say 2 m3 of snow dropping 1m. So I opt for an overhead explosion or something very heavy rolling over them.
Are you saying that an explosion forced the snow onto the people ! ?
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Excellent post Star Man.
2 and 2.5 tons.... That's like having a Volvo fall on you while working under it.
Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. The 2 to 2.5 tonnes force is estimated using the material strength of bone with a laterally applied force which is reasonably well documented. The value used was 50 Mega Newtons per square metre, which means that a single rib should be able to support between 200 and 250 kg before it breaks.
Regards
Star mam
The problem with the fall theory is that the ravine has to be empty of snow at the end of Jan but full at the end of Feb? Which is (very) improbable. I think WAB's view is correct that they died under the snow. So this makes crushing my favourite theory and explains the lack of tissue damage and limb fractures. Also given Lyudmila's double chest fracture we seem to have a very high energy event that can't be explained by normal forces such as a 5m drop or say 2 m3 of snow dropping 1m. So I opt for an overhead explosion or something very heavy rolling over them.
Just to add - if the ravine is empty of snow how do you build a den? So the existence of the den, together with the probability that the ravine had been full of snow from say October onwards rules out falling in situ?
Although we use the term DEN as a reference point there is in fact no proof whatsoever that a Den actually existed.
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The distance from the cedar to the den is only like 75 meters IIRC. Someone can easily be dragged in snow that far.
May work up a sweat in the processes.
Correction.... 50 meters
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From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs. Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.
Regards
Star man
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From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs. Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.
Regards
Star man
And your words ;
[[ I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly. In other words a fast impact. Human beings can't deliver this level of force. ]]
[[ Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. ]]
I think the medical experts would say that there would definitely be skin damage after such a force hit the human body. SKIN / MUSCLE / BONE damage. Apparently Dubinina only had Bone damage ! ?
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From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs. Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.
Regards
Star man
The pathologist estimated that she lived for minutes from the internal bleeding. So any localised force against the body would have left bruising that death would make permanent. Hence i vote for a very strong, very rapid crushing pressure through a layer of snow transmitting an equal pressure across the torso such that the rib cage snaps twice on one side once on the other without bruising.
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From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs. Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.
Regards
Star man
And your words ;
[[ I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly. In other words a fast impact. Human beings can't deliver this level of force. ]]
[[ Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. ]]
I think the medical experts would say that there would definitely be skin damage after such a force hit the human body. SKIN / MUSCLE / BONE damage. Apparently Dubinina only had Bone damage ! ?
From my experience, it seems that any cuts, abrasions and skin damage is a result of secondary impacts and scrapes as the body is propelled away, or if they go under the vehicle.
A fall for instance onto a relatively flat surface when you have layers of clothing on is more likely to cause an impact crush event, but only cuts to exposed skin of the head and hands etc. obviously a fall from hundreds of feet would be a completely different ball game.
Bruising is something that can take time to appear, but if you die before those bruises appear then it looks as if there is no tissue damage.
Regards
Star man
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What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?
Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.
What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?
If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?
Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?
Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??
May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?
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What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?
No limb fractures?
Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
The burnt clothing is presumed to be from drying on the stove which could get too hot.
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.
What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?Imo it's difficult to argue that the ravine had less snow in it at the beginning of February than at the end (it's the sub polar Urals!). So the highest probability has to be that they died under the snow. Askinadzi says they were found an arms length from the den. So the probability has to be that they were in the den when the fatal event occurred. Four seats in the den for four dead people found an arms length away.
If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?
Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?Check out the photos - https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1959-search-part3
Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??
May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?The murder theory is that the den is a plant.
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What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?
Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.
What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?
If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?
Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?
Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??
May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?
I think if there was a blast near the forest then there would be evidence in terms of damaged trees.
I don’t think the stream was flowing when they died. It more began to flow during the thaw.
The position of the bodies indicates that they were lying together more or less, suggesting that they either went there themselves or were carried there.
The time line is something to be careful with. It appears that the rav 4 died before the two Yuris but I think that is about all we can conclude.
This is just an opinion though.
Regards
Star man
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Hi All,
Thanks for the reply. I was just confused because I thought the Ravine 4 were wearing some of the Yuris' clothing items, meaning they had taken them off them after they had already expired? Which would mean the Yuri's died first?
Also, how can we be sure that the clothes were burned by drying them on the stove and not by falling into the fire from the tree? I've seen only one photo of a jacket burned bc of the stove and am not sure if this item of clothing was found on anyone or if it was in the tent?
I was just thinking that the 2 Yuris' had sustained burns to skin and hair, so surely they're clothes were also burned. I was thinking the source of the burned clothing found on the other bodies was the clothing on the Yuris, burned by the fire at the Cedar?
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Hi All,
Thanks for the reply. I was just confused because I thought the Ravine 4 were wearing some of the Yuris' clothing items, meaning they had taken them off them after they had already expired? Which would mean the Yuri's died first?Most people seem to agree with the Yuri's dying first.
Also, how can we be sure that the clothes were burned by drying them on the stove and not by falling into the fire from the tree? I've seen only one photo of a jacket burned bc of the stove and am not sure if this item of clothing was found on anyone or if it was in the tent?Well Lyudmila was wearing burnt and torn trousers so it's a reasonable assumption that they belonged to Yuri K. The problem with the burnt clothing is that the evidence is ambiguous, was it burnt that night or previous nights on the stove? We'll never know for sure.
I was just thinking that the 2 Yuris' had sustained burns to skin and hair, so surely they're clothes were also burned. I was thinking the source of the burned clothing found on the other bodies was the clothing on the Yuris, burned by the fire at the Cedar?I'd agree with that but when were they burnt?...
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What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?
Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.
What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?
If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?
Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?
Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??
May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?
I think if there was a blast near the forest then there would be evidence in terms of damaged trees.
I don’t think the stream was flowing when they died. It more began to flow during the thaw.
The position of the bodies indicates that they were lying together more or less, suggesting that they either went there themselves or were carried there.
The time line is something to be careful with. It appears that the rav 4 died before the two Yuris but I think that is about all we can conclude.
This is just an opinion though.
Regards
Star man
Apologies. I meant to say the two Yuris died before the rav 4. Got wires crossed in my brain. lol2
Regards
Star man
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That's okay - this case tends to do that to brains. :)
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From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs. Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.
Regards
Star man
And your words ;
[[ I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly. In other words a fast impact. Human beings can't deliver this level of force. ]]
[[ Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. ]]
I think the medical experts would say that there would definitely be skin damage after such a force hit the human body. SKIN / MUSCLE / BONE damage. Apparently Dubinina only had Bone damage ! ?
From my experience, it seems that any cuts, abrasions and skin damage is a result of secondary impacts and scrapes as the body is propelled away, or if they go under the vehicle.
A fall for instance onto a relatively flat surface when you have layers of clothing on is more likely to cause an impact crush event, but only cuts to exposed skin of the head and hands etc. obviously a fall from hundreds of feet would be a completely different ball game.
Bruising is something that can take time to appear, but if you die before those bruises appear then it looks as if there is no tissue damage.
Regards
Star man
Yes a fall from hundreds of feet would definitely be a different ball game. From that sort of height we could expect such injuries to Dubinina's RIBS and also a lot more injuries to her body. And that really is the crux of this FALLING THEORY. The Ravine area didnt have any great height to it. And that is why even falling snow is highly unlikely to have caused any injuries to any of them.
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What if they were propelled off of the ravine by some sort of explosion?
Weren't there burns on some of the ravine 4's clothing? Or is that assumed to be clothing worn by the Yuri's burned by the fire at the Cedar?
I suppose then there would have been damage to the trees above the ravine? And I'm assuming there would have been damage to skin from an explosion, unless they were insulated somehow.
What do you think of the bodies' orientation with regards to the stream? I think its weird they all landed up in a stream of flowing water. Do you assume it was running when they died? Or they lay upon a frozen over stream and died?
If it was unfrozen, perhaps they were trying to drink the water and were impacted, fell over into the water and died of their injuries?
Just trying to get an idea of why they were partially submerged. The bodies wouldn't have flowed downstream I don't think. The water flow doesn't seem strong enough, especially if it was partially frozen at that time. And Lyuda's body doesn't speak to that either. Am I correct in assuming she was found kneeling sort of upright with her stomach over rocks? Was there flowing water around her?
Or were the bodies moved into the water by the searchers for some reason??
May I ask why its assumed the Den never existed? If it didn't then the whole timeline is shot. I mean, I would assume those were the last 4 alive and that they had time to build a den. If it was a plant then they wouldn't have had time to build a shelter and they all likely died at the same time?? Is that what you are suggesting?
A lot of points raised here appear throughout the Forum. The DEN should really be considered a reference point because we dont really know if it was in fact a DEN.
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Hi All,
Thanks for the reply. I was just confused because I thought the Ravine 4 were wearing some of the Yuris' clothing items, meaning they had taken them off them after they had already expired? Which would mean the Yuri's died first?
Also, how can we be sure that the clothes were burned by drying them on the stove and not by falling into the fire from the tree? I've seen only one photo of a jacket burned bc of the stove and am not sure if this item of clothing was found on anyone or if it was in the tent?
I was just thinking that the 2 Yuris' had sustained burns to skin and hair, so surely they're clothes were also burned. I was thinking the source of the burned clothing found on the other bodies was the clothing on the Yuris, burned by the fire at the Cedar?
Concerning the so called burnt clothing. We have no evidence to suggest how some of the clothing appeared to have been burned. Therefore like so many things in this mystery its any ones guess. Obviously the STOVE and the FIRE near the Cedar Tree are likely suspects for any burnt clothing. But there are some Investigators who think an ELECTRICAL phenomenon may have played a part.
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From my experience of people being hit by cars, quite often apart from some bruising which comes out a day or two after the collision there is often no evidence of tissue damage even though people end up with broken ribs. Sometimes a bone will puncture through the tissue but this is usually for limbs.
Regards
Star man
My thoughts are that they either fell from a ridge as they came down the slope, or from the cedar tree.
Regards
Star man
And your words ;
[[ I have estimated the forces involved to be between 2 and 2.5 tonnes delivered very rapidly. In other words a fast impact. Human beings can't deliver this level of force. ]]
[[ Thanks. Yes pretty much like a car fall on you. ]]
I think the medical experts would say that there would definitely be skin damage after such a force hit the human body. SKIN / MUSCLE / BONE damage. Apparently Dubinina only had Bone damage ! ?
From my experience, it seems that any cuts, abrasions and skin damage is a result of secondary impacts and scrapes as the body is propelled away, or if they go under the vehicle.
A fall for instance onto a relatively flat surface when you have layers of clothing on is more likely to cause an impact crush event, but only cuts to exposed skin of the head and hands etc. obviously a fall from hundreds of feet would be a completely different ball game.
Bruising is something that can take time to appear, but if you die before those bruises appear then it looks as if there is no tissue damage.
Regards
Star man
Yes a fall from hundreds of feet would definitely be a different ball game. From that sort of height we could expect such injuries to Dubinina's RIBS and also a lot more injuries to her body. And that really is the crux of this FALLING THEORY. The Ravine area didnt have any great height to it. And that is why even falling snow is highly unlikely to have caused any injuries to any of them.