Dyatlov Pass Forum

Victims and Case Files => Victims => Lyudmila Dubinina => Topic started by: Teddy on May 12, 2019, 04:31:56 AM

Title: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Teddy on May 12, 2019, 04:31:56 AM
Author Aleks Kandr (http://mystery12home.ru/paraps?showall=&start=8)

If in other instances of telepathic communication both parties participated, clearly aware of their involvement in what is happening, then in the following example of telepathic contact between unfamiliar people, the power of telepathic influence is not so obvious, causing only a premonition and vague guesses of something fatal.

It will be about the premonition of Lyudmila Dubinina of her tragic death, signs of which, one way or another, appear in the records of her personal diary and in the peculiarities of her behavior during and after Dyatlov group pass through Vizhay.

Many authors of criminal versions of the death of Dyatlov’s group note the fact that the hikers were killed with extreme cruelty, as indicated by the nature of the injuries on the bodies of the hikers discovered by search and rescue in a ravine in early May 1959. This in turn suggests that the murder was committed based on the hatred of the murderers personally to those of the hikers who suffered more. Only two members of the Dyatlov group were mutilated by the murderers with extreme cruelty: Alexander (Semyon) Zolotarev and Lyudmila Dubinina. However, Lyudmila Dubinina had more severe injuries - in addition to numerous rib fractures on both sides of the chest, she had not only eyeballs, but also no tongue, according to the autopsy report. Consequently, there are good reasons to assume that the main object of hatred and revenge for the murderers among all the hikers was exactly Lyudmila Dubinina.

Therefore, any researcher investigating the death of the Dyatlov group in the framework of the criminal version of the premeditated murder, taking into account the data of the FEM of Lyudmila Dubinina, should first of all examine all the materials of the criminal case relating to this girl in order to identify possible conflict situations with her participation, and this is primarily from the diaries.

The version of the mystery of the murder of Dyatlov group is currently the only of all criminal versions, which has a documentary rationale for the possibility of a conflict between Lyudmila Dubinina and one of the employees of colony No. 64 under USh / 349-Ivdellag during the stay of the Dyatlov group in the village of Vizhay.

Dyatlov group arrived in Vizhay together with another group led by Blinov, and decided to stay for one night, as a result of which they spent in the the village almost a day from 14:00 on January 25, left for a ride only at 13:10 on January 26.

It is possible that the atmosphere of psychological discomfort that prevailed in the village. Vizhay, had a depressing effect on the hikers, which Lyudmila Dubinina partly reproduces in her diary: "We had a tearful goodbye with Blinov group. The mood sank. ...In general, I am very, very sad".

In addition to this can be an entry in the personal diary of Zina Kolmogorova, who described the movement of the group from the village club to the hotel in the village. Vizhay, carefully provided to the group by someone from the leadership of the settlement-colony. Such participation in the fate of a group of hikers by the colony’s leadership is explained by the fact that Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, “to render all possible assistance” in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that Zina Kolmogorova formulated this movement as follows: "25.1.59… We arrived in Vizhay. First we stopped at the same club where we were 2 years ago. Then we were taken to the hotel".

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-Vizhay-map-2-thumb.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-Vizhay-map-2.jpg)

Even Zina's use of the words "taken away" instead of "invited to move", "offered to move" or something like that, in these parts at that time had a very specific tint, meaning, as an addition, "under escort" to the word "taken". But this is only a touch to a very specific psychological atmosphere of the village. Vizhay, whose inhabitants provided jobs for the colony at that time. This specific atmosphere for this area influenced on a subconscious level, forcing to choose specific words corresponding to its environment. ("we were taken"), and not just words.

Continuing on, Zina notes in her diary a certain peculiarity of the influence of this place on herself: "I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all nonsense.". It is unlikely that we will find out what is sincere and unusual for her earlier, Zina spoke at the hotel of the settlement-colony Vizhay.

Dyatlov group would be better to stay overnight "In the same club where they were 2 years ago", rather than agree to "be taken" to the hotel, Judging by the non-forest review of her in the general diary of the group on the morning of January 26: "Slept in the so-called hotel, some bundling 2 people on a bed, and Sasha K. and Krivo even on the floor between the beds".

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-26-january-Vizhay.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-26-january-Vizhay-2.jpg)
The canteen in Vizhay. Igor Dyatlov said with a smile: "If the tea is cold, then go out and drink it on the street, it will be hot."

That is, the group was clearly not happy with "so-called hotel", I think, not only due to the fact that her hotel service did not provide for the availability of a sufficient number of beds for all hotel guests. The fact is that the hikers who returned in high spirits from the club after watching a movie "Symphony in Gold" On the evening of January 25, they encountered serious difficulties in preparing a hot dinner due to raw wood for the stove, as a result of which the cooking process took "a lot of time". From the diary of Lyudmila Dubinina:

"We are on duty with Yuri today. We decided to cook noodles on the stove. But it was very difficult to heat the stove with such raw firewood, so it took a lot of time. Finally we began to eat.".

Yuri Krivonischenko, who was on duty this evening with Lyudmila, wrote in the diary of the group the next morning: "We did not boil water in the morning, wood was damp. In the evening it took us 6 hours to boil the water.… Krivonischenko".

Such problems in preparing a hot dinner for experienced hikers, even in remote taiga, were extremely rare, as follows from the entry in the group’s diary for January 30: "As usual we quickly start a fire".

Even if we take into account the possible exaggeration in the assessment of time – "6 hours", spent on the kindling of the stove, then the difficulties that arose in the "so-called hotel" Vizhay could ruffle any experienced hikers for whom it was not difficult to quickly make a fire even in the forest.

And given the difficult mental state of Lyudmila Dubinina these days, it can be assumed that the difficulties encountered in the "so-called hotel" she could be completely out of balance, causing a flush of fair anger and anger on conditions "hotel service", to put it in modern language. Therefore, she could express everything she thinks about this in the most harsh terms to anyone responsible for this “hotel service” person, regardless of her rank and position.

This is in complete agreement with the opinion of O. Arhipov: "Well, it is known that Lyudmila Aleksandrovna was sharp on the tongue and principled. She would not keep her mouth shut.".

This peculiarity of Lyudmila’s character is confirmed in her personal diary the day before the hikers arrive in the village of Vizhay: "January 24th ... Yes, and I generally like to add fuel to the fire, damn me".

The negative superstitious potential of such a phrase, recorded on paper, could in some way “program” its further actions, determined by this striking feature of its character.

Confirmation of the inflated state of the psyche of Ludmila we find in her notes in her personal diary the day after her ordeals as an attendant in the "so-called hotel" in village of Vizahy:

"January 26... Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell".

I.e. even the next day, Lyudmila felt a sense of anger, the degree of which she so uncompromisingly marked: "as hell".

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-54.jpg)

Her expectations of improving her mood in two days obviously did not happen, but despite this, she nevertheless continued to keep her personal diary for two days.

Judging by the fact that from January 28, Lyudmila ceased to keep a personal diary at all, having previously recorded in her impressions of the hike, her mood two days after being in Vizhay not only did not improve, but was also aggravated by some kind of depression, fading interest in everyday trivialities of hiking life, which earlier made up the majority of her personal diary entries.

After visiting the village of Vizhay Lyudmila's psychological state deteriorated quite sharply, aggravating day by day, which is confirmed by the peculiarities of her behavior from January 26 to January 30, which are known to us from her personal diary and Zina Kolmogorova's notes in her diary.

In Ludmila’s personal diary, even on January 27, the first sign of some unconscious doom, expressed by the negative potential of the phrase, is encountered: "the last time", referring to the whole group:

"January 27... Now most of the guys sit here and sing songs to the guitar, on the occasion that they do not work today. It seems this is the last time we heard so many good new songs. But we hope that Rustik will live up to the challenge."

"This is the last time we heard..." And how can you not become superstitious, listening to popular wisdom not to use this phrase, so as not to incur the misfortune.

It should be noted that on January 27th Lyudmila uses the word "it seems" before the key phrase: "this is the last time we heard", i.e. although she was under the impression of her forebodings, they still didn’t have that fatal doom which followed the next day, January 28, when Lyudmila completely stopped writing her impressions of the everyday life in her diary. Only the presentiment of something fatal could have suppressed the long-term habit of an experienced hikers to keep his personal diary during a hike.

The possibility of perceiving other people's thoughts or feelings directed at the subject of perception has long been a subject of study - telepathy, finding confirmation from persons endowed with such an ability that it is not uncommon. Therefore, at the heart of Ludmila Dubinina’s foreboding of her fatal doom, her ability to perceive her feelings of revenge related to her personally, rather than feelings of hatred, filled with negative emotions, fueled by the willingness to materialize them with a picture of the upcoming murder.

Considering that on January 28th Lyudmila completely stopped recording in her personal diary, it can be assumed that on this day the person who ordered the murder made the final decision to deal with the hikers, using associates from his inner circle, staging the killing of group members as an accident caused by the "overwhelming force" on Ural mountain ridge, with reference to the words of forester Rempel I. D. about the potential dangers lurking there for hikers.

It was on that day that Lyudmila Dubinina, previously so verbose in the records of her personal diary, completely stopped writing in it, apparently vaguely anticipating all the fatalism of the deadly threat hanging over her.

It is not excluded that Lyudmila Dubinina’s short but brief conflict with someone from the staff of the colony settlement of Vizhay over raw wood for the stove had its continuation already at the telepathic level of communication between the parties to the conflict, as is almost the case in life when the parties of an emotional conflict continue to mentally express to the offender everything that has boiled over. I think anyone can remember from their own experience an episode of their emotional involvement in an imaginary continuation of a conflict situation after the abuser has long disappeared from sight. As a rule, the conflict situation continues at the telepathic level of communication until it energetically disrupts itself in one way or another.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-lyudmila-dubinina-diary.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-lyudmila-dubinina-diary-10.jpg)

As we can see, even the next day, Lyudmila experienced a feeling of anger - "evil as hell", and this emotional negative could feed the energetics of her telepathic communication with those whom she clearly said too much (cut out her tongue) under the influence of her complex emotional state, known to us from her diary. She was clearly unlucky because she dealt with a professional killer who had served for many years in the NKVD (People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs).

With each day, Lyudmila Dubinina increasingly "went into herself", plunging into the foreboding of something fatal, apparently already fearful from the thought of presenting her fears in her personal diary, much less sharing them with her friends. A possible culmination of this depressed state was a sharp, outwardly unreasonable, change in her behavior on the evening of January 30, which outraged the whole group. As follows from Zina Kolmogorova’s diary entries, it was in the evening of January 30th that Lyudmila Dubinina lost interest in working together on patching up the holes of a dilapidated tent, apparently, already immersed in a stupor from the suddenly increased premonition of her fatal doom:

"January 30... Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. Nick Thibault changed his clothes. He began to write a diary. The law is that until all the work is done, do not approach the fire. And so they had a long argument, of who will sew the tent. Finally K. Tibo gave up and took a needle. Lyuda remained seated. And we sewed the hole (and there were so many that there was enough work for all except two attendants and Lyuda. Guys are terribly outraged. Today is the birthday of Sasha Kolevatov*. Congratulations. We give him a tangerine, which he immediately divided into 8 pieces (Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner).

A possible reason for such a sudden change in the behavior of Lyudmila on the evening of January 30 is the described in the investigation section of the Killers' Ski Route to the upper sources of Auspiya. It is possible that the three murderers, having gone early in the morning of January 29 from 2nd Northern to the upper sources of Auspiya "took a shortcut on one of our forest paths" (words of forester I. D. Rempel (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-46-47?rbid=17743)), by the evening of January 30, they could have already achieved their intended destination, settling for the night in the headwaters of Auspiya. For this reason, on the evening of January 30, they could mentally withdraw from the two previous days of a ski trip to the upper sources of Auspiya, focusing their attention on waiting for the hikers to arrive and discussing the details of their plan. This may well explain such a dramatic change in the behavior of Lyudmila in the evening of January 30, because she was the main object of revenge, which riveted the thoughts of the murderers to her more than her comrades, judging by the severity of injuries inflicted on her later.

Mention Lyudmila in his personal diary "evil spirits" - "evil as hell", and to some extent "calling out" to her - "damn me", give the tragic death of Dyatlov's group some kind of ominous mystical connotation that actualizes the significance of domestic superstition:

January 24... Yes, and I generally like to add fuel to the fire, damn me to hell.
January 25... The mood sank. In general, I am very, very sad.
January 26... Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell.

What can cause such changes in Lyudmila's behavior from January 26 to 30, which later became the victim of revenge in Dyatlov group murders (..., cut the tongue)?

The only plausible explanation for such dramatic changes in Lyudmila’s behavior can only be her premonition of an impending mortal threat, due to her ability at the telepathic level, to vaguely perceive the terrible picture of her plans being visualized by the murderers, which she simply could not want to believe, but the oppressive negative of this premonition had its influence on her thoughts and actions.

In any case, the diary notes of Lyudmila Dubinina and the peculiarities of her behavior shortly before and after the visit of Dyatlov group to the village of Vizhay can hardly be explained only rationally, consistent with the beginnings of common sense, without attracting the irrational component of human existence, bringing something ominously mystical to the tragic death of the Dyatlov group.

On Jan 27, 1959 while at the 41st logging site Dyatlov group learn some Mansi words. Zina, Lyuda and Rustem make similar notes in their diaries. The first word they write is "Я - ручей" which in Russian sounds like "I am a river" or with the dash "I am in the river". Something that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up when you think where was Lyuda found.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-in-the-river.jpg)

I have solicited an opinion from Sabine Lechtenfeld, forensic psychologist from Hannover, Germany on the subject. What was tormenting Lyuda's mind in the days before the tragedy, was she feeling the impending doom or was she just a troubled soul?

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sabine on May 12, 2019, 08:59:04 AM
Sabine Lechtenfeld
Hannover
Germany

12.5.2019,

I thought long and hard about what kind of assessment of Lyuda's character and behavior prior to her death I could put together. I decided that there is not enough reliable material for a proper scientific expertise. I don't want to go down the path of many others and pull an imaginary rabbit out of my hat.

However, I will give you an assortment of my subjective impressions and tentative conclusions.

Let me start with the idea that some of Lyuda's behavior and her last diary entries may have been out-of-character and hint at the possibility that she had a premonition of the tragedy, or that she - as Aleks Kandr's article suggests - may even have been in telepathic contact with her future killer.  When investigating a suspicious death it's standard procedure to scrutinize the behavior of the victims shortly before their deaths and look for changes and unusual behavior. But you have to adopt a pre-mortem perspective in order to avoid the fallacies of confirmation bias. The key question is: was Lyuda's behavior behavior and her diary entries strange and different from her usual behavior - even if we don't know about the fate of the expedition? Unfortunately there's not a lot of material available for answering that question accurately.

Let's first look at the fact that Lyuda stopped writing her diary and that she decided not to help with some daily chores, like mending the tent, and that she isolated herself from the other expedition members shortly before they all perished. From the little we do know about her curriculum vitae and various diary entries, I conclude that she was an intelligent and well-educated young woman, who was introverted and did not socialize easily. She seems to have been well organized and honest to a fault. Since she was the treasurer of the expedition this would've served her well. And according to her own assessment she couldn't hold her tongue and didn't hesitate to speak her mind, which she regretted sometimes. She also scolded herself for being socially awkward.
I looked at all available pictures of Lyuda, and she comes across as someone who is serious and rather introverted. There are not many pictures where she smiles. I saw her most engaging and beautiful smile when she looked at her little brother. I sense a bit of reserve in the pictures where she has physical contact - like a hug - with others. Compared with other members of the expedition her body language comes across as a bit reserved, although I have to attach the important caveat that she may simply not have been totally relaxed and comfortable in front of a camera.
 That she stopped to update her expedition diary is indeed concerning, since keeping a personal diary on a daily basis was considered to be one of the essential duties during these expeditions. But in order to assess if her neglect was totally out of character we need to know if she has ever failed to update her diary on a daily basis on previous expeditions. That she failed to assist with some daily chores like mending the tent, also seems to be not compatible with what we know about Lyuda, and her attitude is duly noted in diary entries by other members. But it's only a short notice and no one seems to have made a huge song and dance about it, or kicked up a fuss because of her apparent moodiness. Therefore it's difficult to say if this was a very unusual behavior for Lyuda, or if those who knew her better were used to her having certain mood swings now and then. If she was indeed prone to mood swings, her behavior over the last few days of her life may not have been out-of-character at all.  But  the big question remains: what caused this deterioration of her mood? Let's look at the crucial sentence of her diary entry, which many consider to be a premonition of the tragedy:

"Everybody felt really tired after the movie and wanted to sleep. Zina and I lay on a mesh-work bed. It's a dream. The lads rested right on the floor. The mood is evil (horrible). Seems it's going to be evil (horrible) for about two more days. I'm mad as hell (as a devil)"

I included alternative translation possibilities in brackets, since there are different possibilities to translate the origial Russian text. The English word"evil", which seems to stick out here like a sore thumb, has a different and more emotionally loaded connotation than the word "horrible".

What's really odd about these few sentences is that Lyuda doesn't give us the slightest hint, why her mood is so bad. This self-assessment of her mood seems to come totally out of the blue. Before she wrote down this sentence she told in a spirited and positive way about what the group has been up to during the day, and she and others seem to have enjoyed themselves. Even the sleeping arrangements ( she and Zina are sharing the only available bed) seems to have agreed with her - if we interpret the sentence "its a dream" in a positive way. So, everything seems to be fine - but then she writes without any explanation whatsoever that her mood is evil/horrible and that she is mad as hell! Even without the benefit of hindsight this is odd. But then she writes that her mood will be evil/horrible for about two more days. This is very interesting insofar as she seems to know quite well what causes her bad mood and when it will end. It has been suggested that she may have had her period or that she was in her pre-menstrual phase. This is a plausible idea and would explain why she seems to know quite well, when her bad mood will end. It would be such a private but banal and recurrent event that she doesn't bother to explain it. Another possibility is that Lyuda is very discontent/annoyed with the the current situation before the group starts to embark on their ski-hiking trip, and that she expects that her mood will improve once they start skiing and leave behind their current location and people. The following sentence "I'm mad as hell/as the devil" is hard to assess since she doesn't bother to elaborate. Does she always feel mad in connection with either her period or inconvenient situations - or is there something else which goes through her head while she's lying on her bed and which angers or upsets her immensely? Frankly, this sentence doesn't seem to be a vague premonition of doom at all. To me it seems that she knows quite well what exactly is upsetting her! Unfortunately we will never know what it was. Therefore my next thoughts are purely speculative:

Is it possible that she spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way? Did she notice something which struck her as  bad, but she hesites to put it down in writing? If she mulled it over and it continued to bother her, it could explain why why she was so occupied with these thoughts that she didn't even keep up her diary. She may literally have stopped speaking her mind. But since she anticipates that her mood will be better within two days, I conclude that her bad mood had probably nothing to do with the upcoming ski-hiking expedition and/or any specific members of her group. But could Lyuda have noticed something which may have had a connection or even led to the terrible fate of the expedition? She strikes me as a perceptive and honest person. If she noticed something going on which in her opinion wasn't correct, she certainly might get mad and  be in an evil/horrible mood. But do we even have the slightest factual hint into that direction? This depends largely on the correct assessment of her autopsy protocols. Lyuda's pre-and postmortem injuries were more horrific than the injuries of all other group members. She may not only have suffered the most, but her eyes were mutilated and her tongue was missing. If the missing facial organs have any significance for the case depends largely on this: were natural decay and scavenging animals responsible - or was Lyuda deliberately mutilated? Since the original investigation concluded (or was forced to conclude) that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not the result of a crime, they concluded that the facial disfigurations were the result of natural decay and scavenging animals. Other experts came later to a different conclusion.  But most experts seem to agree that these facial injuries happened after Lyuda's death. But if the mutilations were deliberate but postmortem, then this cannot have been a form of torture while Lyuda was still alive.

Since I'm not a pathologist I cannot decide which conclusion is correct. But let's construct a so-called thought experiment. Let's assume that the mutilations happened deliberately after Lyuda died. What exactly would that tell us? For starters we could conclude that our hypothetical assailants stuck around until she died. This is a very important conclusion because it would exclude all scenarios where after an initial wave of attacks all injured victims were left alone and then died without their attackers being around. If Lyuda was mutilated after she died, at least some perpetrators did not leave, but made sure that Lyuda (and probably the other victims, too) would be dead or die shortly.

In a scenario of deliberate postmortem mutilations we further have to ask why this was done. It has been suggested that Lyuda may have been the primary victim. Personally I have big problems with the idea that someone was targeting her specifically in a personal vendetta, and that the other group members were just collateral victims. Nothing we know about Lyuda's short life hints into such a direction. To me it seems to be totally over-the-top and excessive that a personal enemy would risk so much and kill nine people just in order to get back at Lyuda because of a personal grievance. It's also very likely that there has been more than one perpetrator. But it's not plausible to assume that a personal enemy of Lyuda would recruit helpers in order to wipe out the whole group. The reason that Lyuda's injuries were more horrific than the injuries of all others could simply mean that Lyuda may have been more resilient. This might've enraged the assailants and they attacked in a final attempt to finish her off without using a weapon. Also, the nature of Lyuda's facial mutilations are not typical tell-tale signs for someone having a personal grudge. In these personal vendetta cases  against women a totally destroyed face, and mutilated breasts and/or sexual organs are far more typical. However, the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it. It also could be a symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk. Very recently the famous mobster Whitey Bulger has been killed by his prison inmates, and his tongue and eyes have been mutilated after he died, most likely because he had a long history as a police informer. I don't want to imply at all that Lyuda may have been a snitch. She strikes me as a person of great integrity who always tried to do the right thing. But if her facial mutilations were were the deliberate postmortem work of the assailants, then we should contemplate if this is a tell-tale sign that she had seen something which she shouldn't have seen, and she and the others should not talk about it. I don't reject the possibility completely that Lyuda had a premonition of impending doom, but we don't have any hints whatsoever that she was indeed psychic. And as I had argued earlier, she probably knew why she was mad and in an evil mood. I prefer a more rational explanation and think it's at least possible that Lyuda noticed something going on in her immediate surroundings before the skiing started, which bothered her greatly and caused her horrible mood. If she continued to mull it over, it could have occupied her mind after they had started their hike, and she may have become edgy and withdrawn to the point where she didn't even bother to keep up her expedition diary and stopped socializing. If she noticed something which greatly upset her, she and her fellow members may have been thought to be a potential danger for someone or a group of people and their interests. In this case the expedition may have been followed by their eventual assailants. If this was noticed by some group members, this could have sparked their jests about the existence of yetis.

In my last paragraph I may have pulled out an imaginary rabbit out of my hat - or rather out of my brain - after all. But as I said before, it's a thought experiment. My chain of arguments is based on the assumption that Lyuda's facial disfigurations were the work of perpetrators who mutilated her deliberately after she died. If this assumption is correct it has huge implications for the case. However if the disfigurations were the result of natural decay and scavenging, my chain of arguments is mute.

Personally I don't believe readily in telepathy without having additional hints. A parapsycholical explanation of Lyuda's "demons" is therefore not my first choice. However, I believe in premonitions  insofar as they may be the result of subtle or less subtle hints which which our brains pick up and then process subconsciously. Our brain continues to work even when we are not aware of it - even when we sleep. Great scientists sometimes experienced solutions for their theories in their dreams, and the results proved to be valuable. But this was only possible because all necessary information and knowledge was already there.
Many gifted so-called clairvoyants or seers work by picking up subtle clues but would not call their predictions true premonitions. While I don't completely reject the idea that true premonitions and thelepatic communications are possible, I prefer to assume that Lyuda's "evil" mood had either nothing to do with the subsequent tragedy, or that she consciously or subconsciously processed hints and observed facts and noticed something which she wasn't supposed to know or talk about. That may have led to Lyuda's so-called demons. And I believe that her facial injuries may be a hint into that direction - if they were indeed deliberate postmortem mutilations. Unfortunately we probably will never know that for sure....
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sabine on May 12, 2019, 09:34:17 AM
Unfortunately my text sports a few typos. Some of them are the unfortunate result of autocorrection which tries to transform everything into German. Sometimes it's very funny and I spot it directly. Sometimes it's more subtle and I overlook it.
I apologize for all  remaining mistakes.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 13, 2019, 06:55:23 AM
Quote
in addition to numerous rib fractures on both sides of the chest, she had not only eyeballs, but also no tongue, according to the autopsy report. Consequently, there are good reasons to assume that the main object of hatred and revenge for the murderers among all the hikers was exactly Lyudmila Dubinina.


This is where I stopped reading.   If the author is using ripped out tongue, and gouged out eyeballs as a basis for a theory....    meh
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Teddy on May 13, 2019, 09:21:34 AM
It is not a theory, I chose this article for her birthday because it had all the strange diary entries listed in one place. Not just Lyuda's, but Zina's too. It was a strange place, Vizhay, something made them feel doomed and they couldn't lit a fire indoors. Just read the facts. I have long ago learned to just blur the nonsense. Just comment the things that are true. The diary entries are true. Why didn't they let them stay at the club? That is true. Even if Lyuda had PMS it didn't improve in 2-3 days as expected, and she just totally lost desire to function. What is your explanation for this? Something caused her moods. it is true what Sabine says - we don't have information about her usual way of behavior, but one thing we know - she was very strict and to be the first one to disobey the rules most probably she made it is strange. To stop writing in her diary is also strange. What's you take on this?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Teddy on May 13, 2019, 09:23:13 AM
Because of this article I was so intrigued by Vizhay that I made some research Vizhay → (https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay)
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sarapuk on May 13, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
I think any kind of investigator would really need a lot more information on Lyudmila Dubinina's state of behaviour during the Dyatlov Group expedition to reach any kind of possible explanation.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sabine on May 13, 2019, 12:53:05 PM
Teddy, thanks for the pics and the info about Vizhay!

The problem with the Dyatlov Pass incident is, that it leads all modern reseachers into a hermeneutical hell, since there is only very little direct material evidence which can be examined (therefore exhume all bodies!)  Everything is filtered through man made documents, and there's plenty of reasons to assume that many of them  are unreliable and/or not trustworthy or incomplete. I'm not talking about deliberate forgeries. But the original investigation was very  flawed and prematurely shut down, as we know from the chief investigator himself. Since we develop theories so many decades after the event, we all make choices, depending on our field of expertise and private world views,  as to what evidence we accept and what we reject*. But we should keep in mind that we may be wrong☺

  As far as I know there's no serious doubt that Lyuda's diary entries are legit. Therefore it does make sense to analyze them and ask what could've been the reason for her deteriorated mood (what made her so mad and why did she anticipate that things would be better within two days?) and her behavior - as far as we know about it from other diary entries - after the hiking had started. Lyuda's unique facial disfigurations have also been generally accepted as factual. But there's room for doubt if this really was solely the work of natural decay and scavenging. Some experts disagree. And therefore I think it's legitimate and necessary to look at a scenario where these facial injuries may have been inflicted deliberately, since the implications for the whole case are immense.

Aleks Kandr has taken a look at the two pieces of evidence which I mentioned above and has connected them with the group's stay in Vizhay. Because of my analysis of Lyuda's diary entries - and also because of my personal world views - I rejected the idea as unlikely that Lyuda had a true premonition of doom and was in a telepathic contact with her eventual assailants. But I think nevertheless that it's very valuable  to look again at the evidence of the diary entries as well as at Lyuda's obduction reports and how they have been re-evaluated by various forensic experts. And since Lyuda wrote about her bad mood during the group's stay in Vizhai, it's interesting to take a closer look at the location. As Teddy said  "look at the facts and blur out the nonsense" - although we all may have differing ideas about what constitutes nonsense ☺

*Personally I have rejected stoves and yetis, although for different reasons 😉
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sabine on May 13, 2019, 01:10:31 PM
I think any kind of investigator would really need a lot more information on Lyudmila Dubinina's state of behaviour during the Dyatlov Group expedition to reach any kind of possible explanation.

Sarapuk, I agree that Lyuda's diary entries and her later behavior during the hike, don't leave us with anything solid. But if we assume for a moment that the Dyatlov group members have become victims of a crime - which is a legit possibility - every investigator worth his/her salt should've taken a long and hard look at Lyuda's diary entries, and should've tried to find out by interviewing those who have been around during the stay in Vizhay, wth may have been bugging Lyuda!  It could be totally unrelated to the tragedy, but a thorough investigation needed to check! Unfortunately  now we have next to no chance to find out more...
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sarapuk on May 13, 2019, 01:18:20 PM
I think any kind of investigator would really need a lot more information on Lyudmila Dubinina's state of behaviour during the Dyatlov Group expedition to reach any kind of possible explanation.

Sarapuk, I agree that Lyuda's diary entries and her later behavior during the hike, don't leave us with anything solid. But if we assume for a moment that the Dyatlov group members have become victims of a crime - which is a legit possibility - every investigator worth his/her salt should've taken a long and hard look at Lyuda's diary entries, and should've tried to find out by interviewing those who have been around during the stay in Vizhai, wth may have been bugging Lyuda!  It could be totally unrelated to the tragedy, but a thorough investigation needed to check! Unfortunately  now we have next to no chance to find out more...

Yes and unfortunately that is the case with so many aspects of this Dyatlov Mystery. My feelings are that unless more evidence is brought to life via the Authorities in some way then we may never have an explanation as to what actually happened.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 13, 2019, 06:07:42 PM
No idea, I just loose interest when I get to 'gouged out eyeballs and ripped out tongue'.   
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sabine on May 14, 2019, 06:06:40 AM

Question:

What was supposed to happen with the diaries after the expedition? What was the normal procedure? Who would read them afterwards? Would they have been routinely archived somewhere?

The more I think about it, the less I believe that Lyuda was "mad as hell" because she suffered from period-related symptoms. It's of course possible - but I have never heard a woman say that she is "mad as hell/ as the devil" because of her period. To me it sounds more as if something very specific made her really angry or furious, and I wonder why Lyuda didn't write down why she was so angry - especially since she accused herself of having a sharp tongue, which seems to imply that she normally didn't hold back her anger.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Teddy on May 14, 2019, 06:16:26 AM
When the tent was found and everything was transported and reviewed in Ivdel, Lev Ivanov chose to include in the case files only two diaries - the group diary and another one that was named Zina's but it actually wasn't hers. For reference see https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries (https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries). The two diaries that were included in the case files (and the propaganda leaflet Evening Otorten №1) were typed and nobody outside the investigation has seen the originals, what do they look like, are they missing pages etc. The criteria for the two chosen diaries is perhaps that they have the latest entries. Nobody has explained why these and not the others, and why did they need to be retyped. The rest of the diaries were given back to the families. When in 1999 the Dyatlov foundation was established most of the document ended with Yuri Kuntsevich, the families just handed all to him.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Teddy on May 14, 2019, 10:18:49 AM
This interview (http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=435.0) can give you some idea where her diary went.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sabine on May 14, 2019, 11:36:13 PM
Thanks Teddy! Will write more about the diary situation later.

Does anyone know what would've happened to the diaries if there had been no disaster and the expedition would've  ended as planned? Would each expedition member have taken home his/her diary as a souvenir or would they have been collected and archived somewhere? Who else than the diary owners would've read them later if everything had gone according to plan?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Teddy on May 15, 2019, 12:26:37 AM
Most of the papers - maps, manually drawn topos on the go - very popular for the times, and the group diary stay with the sports club who organized the trek. They typed it  and it stays in their archives. The archives were on paper, of course. But they were there. In recent years all this was digitized.
You can find here very well organized depository of documents and everything dating very far back (1935). You can search by anything - Route, State, Area, Leader, Type, Category, Year, Uploaded. Here is Karelin's trek from 1959: http://tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=28951&page=1 (http://tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=29094&page=1)
I stumble upon this trek from 1959: http://tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=29094&page=1 (http://tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=29094&page=1) and noticed that the category is V so I sent an inquiry why is that. Are we mistaken to say that category III was the highest in 1959? The answer is that in 1959 Category III was the highest category of difficulty and it only later was broken down in more categories going up to V. The second example is a mistake.

To answer Sabine - personal diaries stay with the group members, they are expected to give to the sports club only one diary in which everybody could write, but the leader was suppose to monitor that at least there is one entry per date. Personal diaries were not required, you don't need to keep a diary, only if you want to. As a matter of fact all notebooks for personal diaries were given by Zina to the members of the group before the trek. This is why they spot dedication in Zina's hand writing.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-lyudmila-dubinina-diary-02.jpg)
To the kind treasurer L.
Dubinina for her diary.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-rustem-slobodin-diary-02.jpg)
To the restless mechanical Rustik
   for his diary


Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: BottledBrunette on August 25, 2019, 11:36:05 PM
I had written out another comment, but, I guess I had been on too long reading stuff and then writing and when I posted it, it went back to the beginning where I had to log back in again, so I posted again, but, it said I already posted it, so, I went back to the previous page to finish reading other comments, and I noticed it didn't get posted after all. bang1.  What I said was, I wondered if perhaps, Lyuda was maybe sexually assaulted by one of the men from the camp, maybe one of the military type looking guys or maybe one of the loggers or, as I suggested, but, it is probably highly unlikely, perhaps by Zolartaryov, himself, being the oldest guy there.  You just never know people.  But, I have heard that people who either are sexually assaulted, either by rape or attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, their personalities change.  Maybe she said something what was construed as being above her place or snotty, what have you, to one of the men, and he tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow.  I have heard that women undergo profound psychological changes in their personalities.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc. Maybe that was why she wrote she was so angry as heck and she felt horrible, the place was horrible.  Just a thought. I had it all written much better the first time, of course.  Maybe she thought she would get over it, but, didn't, and that's why she was so 'hostile' and not wanting to participate, help with the chores, hiding out from the rest of the group, stopping any kind of writing in her personal diaries.  Just a thought that occurred to me as I was reading what Sabine posted about why Lyuda was so angry, why she didn't want to do chores like the rest of them, why she might have been not pleasant on the hiking trip, and if the the man, with the help of his buddies came back to finish her off because he was afraid she might tell, who knows, maybe she threatened to do so, and that's why she was the most mutilated, if we are going with the theory of her being the target. 
Or, here is another thought.  It sounds like the trip started off bad to begin with.  One of the guys not being able to come after all, so here comes Zolartaryov, which pissed Lyuda off immensely, then, the very long train trip; the authorities of one of the train station making them sleep outside and for arresting Krivonischenko, then, and this is new to me, the camp not letting them sleep at some club house like before, but, at some hotel that didn't have any beds (I wonder if the reason why they weren't allowed in the club like last time was because there were two groups instead of the one, however, don't know if that had anything to do with that or not, not knowing in the past if there was always just one group coming to Vizhay or more; the uncomfortable sleeping conditions; the damp wood that caused dinner to be six hours late; and maybe fighting between Dytalov and Zolartaryov over what is the the best way to go and personality clashes; and delays, trying to find rides in the most uncomfortable means, then, Yudin suddenly getting sick and leaving; the snow storm, their losing their way, etc.  While others made the best of it, if we are to believe the diaries, the misfortunes kept piling up and piling up for Lyuda.  But, that there doesn't explain why she had the most things happened to her body postmortem. 
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM
............ I chose this article ...... because it had all the strange diary entries listed in one place...What is your explanation for this ?....Lyuda ....was very strict and to be the first one to disobey the rules most probably she made it is strange.....................
           
Here are a few excerpts from Aleks Kandr's article that Teddy is repeating
.....Even Zina's use of the words "taken away" instead of "invited to move".....meaning, as an addition, "under escort" to the word "taken"...
....and Sasha K. and Krivo even on the floor between the beds"....wood was damp...
.........................................
the diary notes of Lyudmila Dubinina and the peculiarities of her behavior shortly before and after the visit of Dyatlov group to the village of Vizhay can hardly be explained only rationally, consistent with the beginnings of common sense,

Sabine Lechtenfeld Hannover     Germany
.......................
The lads rested right on the floor. The mood is evil (horrible).....
..............................
 Frankly, this sentence doesn't seem to be a vague premonition of doom at all. To me it seems that she knows quite well what exactly is upsetting her!
.................................
Is it possible that she spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way? Did she notice something which struck her as  bad, but she hesites to put it down in writing? If she mulled it over and it continued to bother her, it could explain why why she was so occupied with these thoughts that she didn't even keep up her diary. She may literally have stopped speaking her mind
.................................
That she failed to assist with some daily chores like mending the tent, also seems to be not compatible with what we know about Lyuda, and her attitude is duly noted in diary entries by other members. But it's only a short notice and no one seems to have made a huge song and dance about it, or kicked up a fuss because of her apparent moodiness.
...............

 • And let us not forget the fact that it was impossible to completely close the small window and room got a bit cold.  Outside temperature was -17°C.
 • It can also be assumed that the wood that was supplied to the hikers to make fire was deliberately made wet because in Vizhay no one was unaware of the difference between wet and dry wood.
 •  There is no indication of the rates of this so-called hotel, which was certainly not free of charge.

Also IMHO the diary notes of Lyudmila Dubinina and the peculiarities of her behavior  during and after the visit of Dyatlov group to the village of Vizhay can easily be explained rationally, and can be understood by using common sense.

It is indisputable that in Vizhay the hikers were bullied, mocked, humiliated and probably swindled. In other words..Dyatlov's group was treated like dogs.

Since Dubinina was the treasurer of the hiking she feels responsible for the money wasted on the group and maybe even guilty in front of "the route commission at the Sverdlovsk city committee on physical culture and sport", including Korolev, Novikova, Maslennikov, Bogomolov.

Moreover Dubinina is very scrupulous in terms of moral principles and honesty: what she demands for herself she expects from others.

It is therefore very likely that at one moment or another (January 25 or 26) Dubinina protested energetically to the little chef who had imperatively chased them out of the clubhouse.

Dubinina was furious (not without reason) and she yelled at some of the people in charge of the reception.

But the 8 other hikers, who were thinking about something else or were immersed in other daydreams of various natures, did not support Dubinina.
That is to say that the other 8 hikers endured everything without protesting:

"Igor Dyatlov was unrecognizable. He tried to dance, and even started singing: "O Jackie Joe."
And Dyatlov said only :
"If the tea is cold, then go drink it outside, it will be hot."
And the others:
"The whole evening there was a discussion about love about friendship, about dances and other things."   (I add treacherously: and other things undoubtedly frivolous)

It is clear that with her wonderful feminine intuition, of which she was naturally gifted, Dubinina had understood the dishonesty and the viciousness of the welcome they had received at Vizhay was unacceptably bad.
While Dyatlov, who was certainly a great sportsman and possessed vast competencies, was unable to perceive the difficulties and subtleties of the client-host relationship.


Dubinina was indeed preoccupied and tormented. She knew that her diary would be read. She did not want to, she could not describe either the insouciousness of her friends, neither the poor reception of the Vizhay hotel, which had been advised or perhaps even imposed in Sverdlovsk by : Korolev, Novikova, Maslennikov and Bogomolov.

About the episode of the non-repair of the tent.

So she does not want to explain explicitly in black and white why: her mood is evil/horrible and that she is mad as hell!

And I imagine an explanation of this kind:

You guys are nice but I am the treasurer and the youngest of the hicking group who protested in Vizhay when our group was swindled and humiliated.

On this point, I am furious. To make you understand your wantonness... I am going on strike ! I refuse to repair the tent !

And the other eight hikers understood at that moment, that Dubinina was right (or admitted that Dubinina was not wrong).

It is normal that in a group of 9 friends, from time to time, there are animated explanations, and then everything goes for the best and mutual esteem and friendship are strengthened.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Teddy : Victims and Case File > Victims > Aleksander Kolevatov > Rakitin's version on Kolevatov ---> November 16, 2018, 11:04:54 AM
See :https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=297.msg2107#msg2107
...............................................
As is known, after the massacre of Beria and the "Beria gang", Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev and his associates decided on a full-scale reform of the USSR state security system. The demolition was cardinal and was carried out in several directions at the same time. The KGB of the USSR, created on March 13, 1954, was very different from the state security apparatus created in the post-war years. And, for the better. The methods of work became much more civilized and humane. As early as September 1953 Bureau ?2 of Special Operations inside the country disappeared and never again appeared. For the first time in the history of the Soviet state security operational work was organizationally combined with counterintelligence (in the framework of the Second Main Directorate), etc. But the most significant was the change in the requirements for the personnel of the special services. Khrushchev can hardly be called a technocrat, but for all its apparent simplicity, he was very respectful of people who had a technical education.
....................................

This board is important because it is the History of Russia that will allow to precise about the "WHY" and the "WHO" of the solution: "Altercation on the pass", which is sometimes discreetly evoked (Teddy, Sabine... etc.), and which is highlighted by Per Inge Oestmoen, Eduard Tumanov...etc.

   As soon as he came to power in 1953, Khrushchev attacked the Soviet system, but some of his reforms turned against him. He himself dug his own political grave (he was replaced by Brezhnev in 1964). Indeed for historians, the period 1953-1964, (which is called the Khrushchev epoch or the Khrushchev thaw), is particularly complicated (and also not well known) because Khrushchev met opponents in all (Stalinist) strata of Russian society (Army, Gulag Administration, Nomenklatura, etc.).

   So Aleks Kandr proposes the complete and coherent hypothesis of a camp leader's revenge ("which could be one of the leaders of the colony 64 at the SCh/349-I," - ? -)
who opposed Khrushchev's attempt to dismantle the Gulag. It was then that Dyatlov's group arrived in Vizhay by exhibiting the voucher, which made them look like semi-official representatives of Moscow, (whereas Dyatlov's group were merely young sportsmen of no political importance).

What I have just written is probably wrong because I could hardly understand only a small part of Aleks Kandr .
Aleks Kandr writes in Russian (I don't understand a single word of Russian) and I try to understand him through an online automatic translator that produces French sentences that are often incomprehensible .
In short, Aleks Kandr shows a real knowledge of the social difficulties in Russia during the Khrushchev epoch and his texts about DPI seem important to me .

See :

    http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
    http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-2
    http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

  ... and maybe fighting between Dytalov and Zolartaryov over what is the the best way to go and personality clashes; a
.... the misfortunes kept piling up and piling up for Lyuda..................

Yes, in order to search for a plausible reconstruction of DPI, it is also useful to imagine psychological motivations that are by nature rigorously unprovable.

As a result, I also have permission to follow a different path...

 • On the contrary Zolotaryov, who had been received with some apprehension at first, turned out to be a quite charming and interesting companion.
( Zolotaryov's role as an informer is another subject, at the same time very simple and unimportant ).

 • Dubinina is furious against the manager of the Vizhay hotel who swindled - and even bullied - the group.
 • Dubinina rightly thinks that her friends should have protested vigorously at the time (which they did not do).
 • Dubinina finds that her 8 friends, who are nice and competent, sometimes behave like big, insouciant and irresponsible children.
 • But (before February 1st) I am convinced that there were neither difficulties nor serious conflicts in Dyatlov's group, which was very well prepared.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-10.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-08.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-05.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-unknown-camera-film5-17.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-02.jpg)

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

On the contrary, I think that the 9 hikers unfortunately had no premonition of the danger they were in.
 That is why PJ is right when he says that in photo N°17 of Tibo's film, it was Tibo himself who photographed himself using a self-timer because the brief appearance of a pursuer on their trail would have aroused a certain mistrust.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)


It is Alecsandros who asks the fundamental question:

Alecsandros: Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass ---> June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM; Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
..............
- why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense?
............................

Indeed! Why did not the hikers keep any heavy, hard objects close at hand ? (for example a hammer like Doroshenko had once had).

In a remote place of the great Siberia it is impossible to foresee everything - The various wild animals - The gulag camps which are far, but not too far away - The Mansis who are peaceful but still a bit mysterious. The Mansis are not necessarily very happy when hikers come and blur the tracks of their animals in their usual hunting territory.

Whatever the circumstances, if there's something abnormal, nothing (except a bullet in your body) could prevent you from getting out of your tent by ( negligently ) holding an axe or an ice axe in your hand.

  Possible explanations to discuss :
 
 • "Khrushchev ... was very respectful of people who had a technical education. "
That is to say that the engineers, technicians, students of the UPI and members of the route commission benefited from reinforced police protection in their laboratories and their buildings. As a result, hikers everywhere retained a slightly excessive sense of security.
 
 • Or it was the use of an Improvised Suffocating Device that provided a complete surprise, which Anatoliy Stepochkin transcribed in legendary form : " the shamans [attackers] cut the tarp and launched some kind of dope inside."
https://dyatlovpass.com/dmitriy-borisov-2019-02-12

For the continuation in works, go to  :   Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
   
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: eurocentric on July 31, 2020, 02:56:14 PM
Unless it bred resentment afterwards, and the students had acted snobbily and were perceived to have taken photos of the curious 'poor people', cultural and political outcasts, like the National Geographic descending on a remote tribe, then it seems reasonable to assume things were cordial with the people of Vizhay from the pictorial evidence. Three cameras took no less than 10 photo's, including two indoor portraits of bearded man. But the hikers may have been glad to leave due to the level of accommodation, and would have rated it low on Tripadvisor.

In terms of what changed the mood, and clearly making a statement in a diary like "evil as hell" is quite telling, I suspect this stems more from the hikers' own dynamics and relationships. Lyuda would feel quite isolated among these people because she didn't appear to bond with anyone.

Yuri D had been in a previous relationship with Zina, who was then supposedly with Igor, though there's not the slightest hint of companionship or body language between the new couple in any of the photo's. Imagine playing gooseberry in a tent just feet away from your ex and her new beau. At 21 years of age I can't see Yuri D being entirely au fait with that.

A diary entry says Igor was unrecognisable and rude one whole night. As if things weren't complicated enough, and during a time of sexual abstinence and frustration, Igor probably picked up upon how Zina had been all over Yuri Yudin, as was Lyuda, who even gave him a gift, and the mood seemed to change after he left.

After Yuri Yudin the only other one who seemed to provide fun was Tibo, this is there in photographs across all his hikes, but his efforts seem mainly directed to the benefit of Yuri K, and he bonded with Semyon. The artistic Rustem, who doesn't seem to have the slightest aggression to him in his photographic history, also joins in the impish fun with this group.

Besides Lyuda, Yuri D and Kolevatov seem to have been isolated too. Every photo of Yuri D, bar one where he's sitting down and someone will have told him to crack a smile, shows him remote, staring off into space. I can't believe these dynamics did not in some way affect the group mood, unless you had the stress relief of being with those who could clown around.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Spygirl 1 on August 01, 2020, 04:25:11 PM
Respectively- where is the evidence Zina was "supposedly with" Igor on the hike?

When reading about Yuri D's childhood is it any wonder he may not smile a lot? In no way will I ever believe his lack of him smiling for the camera played a part in the hikers' demise
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: eurocentric on August 01, 2020, 05:48:05 PM
Respectively- where is the evidence Zina was "supposedly with" Igor on the hike?

When reading about Yuri D's childhood is it any wonder he may not smile a lot? In no way will I ever believe his lack of him smiling for the camera played a part in the hikers' demise

I followed a link here to 'The Cloaked Hedgehog'

https://thecloakedhedgehog.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/the-dyatlov-pass-incident-part-2/

Igor Dyatlov, 22
Born in 1937. A student of the 5th Faculty of Radio Engineering at the UPI University. A talented engineer designed and assembled a radio during his 2nd year, which was used during hikes in 1956 in Sayan Mountains. He also designed a small stove that was used since 1958 by Dyatlov himself and that he had brought with him on this trip. People who knew Igor described him as a thoughtful man who never rushed into anything. He courted Zina Kolmogorova who also took part in the hike. Igor Dyatlov was one of the most experienced athletes in the group.

That bio 'fact' about Igor may well be incorrect, but that's where it comes from.

Elsewhere, in Yuri D's bio, it states of him that "He was once involved in a relationship with Zina Kolmogorova and even met her parents in Kamensk-Urals."

I haven't suggested Yuri D's mood precipitated their demise. I've suggested that even if the other hikers didn't write it down, because men atypically do not, that she was not the only one with the blues, given the photographic evidence. And I've set out some other reasons why Lyuda may have felt as she did, as indicated by her diary entries, which other posters link to the stay at Vizhay. I've explored some of the group dynamics, including the removal of Yuri Yudin, and referenced a potential source of tension between Igor and Yuri D, all of which could affect the mood.

Tibo was raised in a concentration camp - and yet he was the joker.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Spygirl 1 on August 02, 2020, 11:21:33 AM
Thank you for directing me to this site.

The "Cloaked Hedgehog" is mainly into Dogman and other cryptic. IMO her storytelling of the DPI is full of errors including Igor was found with a photograph of Zina. I wasn't able to verify this anywhere else.

However, in reading comments posted on the subject I found this to be of interest & maybe something to be considered:

"The autopsies remarkably ignore the one glaring detail that no one seems to notice: the ears. The autopsy report spends a lot of attention on the sensational, but leaves out the mundane detail that reveals the cause–which is exactly what a Soviet cover-up would hinge upon. You have to really want this case to be far-out and paranormal to make it seem weird. For those who have seen these types of injuries in the real world and up close, there is no mystery to what accounts for all the facts. The old Sherlock quote simplifies the case, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth,” except that in this case the remains are not all that improbable in retrospect."--- Dr. Tim Kirk, Sept. 18, 2018

I am certainly not a medical dr. so any thoughts?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sparrow on August 02, 2020, 11:02:21 PM
Teddy has a good post(?) on this forum titled (I think) "Zina's Letters".  In at least one of these letters, Zina states that she still loves Yuri.   So I have NO doubt that there is nothing between her and Igor.

Did I miss something about the hikers ears?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: eurocentric on August 03, 2020, 03:08:09 AM
Thank you for directing me to this site.

The "Cloaked Hedgehog" is mainly into Dogman and other cryptic. IMO her storytelling of the DPI is full of errors including Igor was found with a photograph of Zina. I wasn't able to verify this anywhere else.

However, in reading comments posted on the subject I found this to be of interest & maybe something to be considered:

"The autopsies remarkably ignore the one glaring detail that no one seems to notice: the ears. The autopsy report spends a lot of attention on the sensational, but leaves out the mundane detail that reveals the cause–which is exactly what a Soviet cover-up would hinge upon. You have to really want this case to be far-out and paranormal to make it seem weird. For those who have seen these types of injuries in the real world and up close, there is no mystery to what accounts for all the facts. The old Sherlock quote simplifies the case, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth,” except that in this case the remains are not all that improbable in retrospect."--- Dr. Tim Kirk, Sept. 18, 2018

I am certainly not a medical dr. so any thoughts?

Mention of that photo is also at this site though, on the Rescue page about the tent. I would imagine something that specific would be lifted from the translated inventories of items found by the rescuers.

...Near the ice axe was lying Dyatlov's jacket. In the pockets was a penknife on a carabiner and a pocketbook with Zina Kolmogorova's photo inside. The objects didn't shed any light about what happened, but it was strange that Dyatlov took off his jacket outside the tent...

Reference the ears, I'm not a doctor either, but I still noticed how the autopsies for the first 5 hikers only mentioned the outer ear, the colour of the concha/auricles, and nothing about the inner ear, specifically the eardrum. That can be checked with an otoscope (I recently bought a cheap USB one off eBay!). The later 4 autopsy reports do not mention the ears at all.

The significance of that is the pathologist was asked at the hearing to explain what may have caused the severe injuries to 3 of the hikers, and one of his explanations, besides falls and throwing, was mention of a pressure wave.

Had the hikers been subjected to an explosion near enough to cause serious injury then their inner ears would likely be damaged. The eardrums, the timpanic membranes, easily burst, and any damage beyond that point can cause permanent deafness, so finding inner ear damage would have lent weight to that line of inquiry.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: RidgeWatcher on August 04, 2020, 12:47:52 AM
If we source Lyuda's behaviors during other hiking experiences then we can assess her behavioral contradictions in terms of her actions at Vizhay and afterwards.

After all, Lyuda sustained a bullet wound on a previous tourist hike and finished the hike while apologizing to her group for causing any delay and inconvenience.
Whatever happened in Vizhay was worse than a gun shot wound, no doubt, either physically or psychologically. Keep in mind that Lyuda was tough, smart and she was trusted by the group trusted her as the treasurer.

As far as Igor acting unrecognizable, I wonder if he could he have been drugged while in Vizhay? Igor was always described as being rock solid and even tempered and suddenly in Vizhay he is unrecognizable. Could this have been done to get closer to Zina and Lyuda? Or closer to Lyuda after something she may have said to offend someone? I don't think Igor was drinking knowing the long trek ahead of the group that he was responsible for. Perhaps he was aware of being drugged the next morning and wanted nothing more than to leave quickly and quietly, thus, his unusual dismissive comment about the cold coffee. All in all, the Dyatlov group seemed to have a better and more comfortable time in the uninhabited 2nd Northern camp, than they did in Vizhay. That says a lot when reviewing the Vizhay experience.

I also think that Vizhay can be separated into two parts: Entering Vizhay to finishing the movie, and then to the hotel and their departure. From reading their journals I think that whatever happened took place after the movie finished. That Lyuda was very keen about whatever happened was quite evident.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Georgi on August 11, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
I think that we can safely say that her behaviour during the trek and her actions were out of the ordinary. If we look at the hiking experience of the individual members and it's available here-->https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks (https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks) we can see that she has had previous hikes with at least 6 member of the 10 person team, the only people she has not gone to hikes with in the previous 6 years are Zolotaryov for obvious reasons, Slobodin and Kolevatov. If this were her ordinary behaviour where she would at times refuse to participate in camp tasks that everyone should participate in and behaved in a manner to evoke negative reactions from her hike mates chances are she would not have been invited to a hike that would have lasted at least 21 days most of them in extreme weather in the wilderness. This was a trip where every member had to do their share for the success of the hike, so if in previous hikes she had been excessively moody, and refused to participate no one would have wanted an unreliable and untrustworthy member for a hike of this complexity, difficulty and length. To me, the fact that she had gone on previous hikes, was shot in the leg once before and was invited to a long, complicated, difficult, and exhausting hike it was because she was trusted to pull her weight and be a team player. This leads me to believe that the behaviour during the hike that we know of and the behaviour that was likely not written down was out of character for her which allowed he hike mates the ability to give her some leeway and also might indicate that something serious was bothering her.

She might have seen something she shouldn't have seen, or recognized someone who wanted to remain anonymous and her subconscious was bothering her because she might not have even realized what was wrong. What we know is that something was eating at her, what we can infer from the fact that she was on the hike is that her usual behaviour during hikes was professional and appropriate or she wouldn't have been invited on this once.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sparrow on August 12, 2020, 12:16:25 AM
On January 26, Lyuda states "Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days.  Evil as hell."  Maybe she wasn't talking about herself but the group. Also, when she mentioned "two more days", maybe she was talking about the time it would take before they actually really started their hike.  From the 26th to the 28th is two days. wink1
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Georgi on August 15, 2020, 08:48:10 PM
On January 26, Lyuda states "Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days.  Evil as hell."  Maybe she wasn't talking about herself but the group. Also, when she mentioned "two more days", maybe she was talking about the time it would take before they actually really started their hike.  From the 26th to the 28th is two days. wink1
The next day's diary entry doesn't read like a group in a foul mood, so it leads me to believe its her mood she was writing about or she misjudged the mood of the guys and it was only temporary.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: 20vvk07 on January 09, 2021, 07:05:46 AM
From Mother Russia with love! grin1
I warn you right away: I use Google Translate, there may be very stupid spelling mistakes.
Question to you, Teddy, do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? Before you stop reading this out of some shame, I CAN JUSTIFY IT(!!!!!!!). I'm not writing this to mock the tragedy, but to share a version of Lucy's bad mood. So, let's get started. Luda claims that the bad mood will pass in two days. Why? Because these "problems" go on for about a week, so she counts their ending. From the first pages of her diary, it is clear that she bought some fabric. I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation! twitch7" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too! And there was no way to count days (in a certain calendar) either. Well, it began and began, put the fabric in your underwear, wait a week, that's how easy it was at that time. And Luda's cheerful mood changed to a bad one not for this reason. Zhenya, who constantly joked about her, Zhenya, to whom she, along with Zina, sang a song before the departure of the Blinov group, probably liked her very much, which is clear from her diary. She was caught up in his verbal banter: "Does he think I'm some kind of fool?" That's parting with a loved one that you are constantly insulting jokes, women's problems, variable mood and torment Lyudmila. Then women's" problems " pass. So the diary ends, because she is already ready to help her comrades in difficult work, there is no time for a diary.. It sounds silly, but it probably was. dunno1
The fabric is called-cambric.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: mk on January 09, 2021, 11:59:07 AM
....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: 20vvk07 on January 10, 2021, 12:34:56 AM
....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.

The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: 20vvk07 on January 10, 2021, 12:36:48 AM
....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.
The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: mk on January 10, 2021, 07:51:59 AM
The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
It's difficult for me to imagine choosing cambric fabric specifically for a reusable pad.  It's a flat, tight weave--makes very nice shirts and other clothing--but seems like you'd want something more absorbent as a pad.  However, if any old rag would do, then you wouldn't use your nice new cambric.  I wonder whether there is anything else in the list of items that might have been used: possibly the cotton socks?  They would be absorbent, soft, and the sort of thing that wouldn't be embarrassing to hang up to dry in mixed company.  The list of items reports, "cotton socks, whole and torn, 25 pieces".  Torn socks could be put inside a whole sock and then used as a pad.   

At any rate, you've answered my question about the possibility of "evil as hell" mood being PMS--in my opinion, definitely possible!
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: RidgeWatcher on January 10, 2021, 03:39:30 PM
The PMS aspect or possibility has been talked about at length somewhere on this forum and the general consensus is her "mad as hell" and 2 days mostly likely had nothing to do with PMS or her cycle. It's generally thought that some incident occurred at the Hotel in Vizhay or maybe prior.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Dona on April 08, 2021, 09:50:46 AM
It was more than just Luda who had a premonition..

Igors mother did everything she could to stop him from going..  Then he said " this will be my last trip"

Someone else also  said this.. Georgy, I think.. " This will be my last trip"

Someone else was a no show

Another, transferred out,  suddenly.

Yuri Yudin.. He would have known early on if he was having sciatica.. I think he sensed something.

Then, the not one, but TWO, police encounters.. Zena said she had  never heard of such a thing  as to being arrested for singing, I think she said..

The guy who tried hard to talk them out of going that route.

The universe was speaking, but no one was listening..
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: RidgeWatcher on April 15, 2021, 08:30:06 PM
I read Sebastien Unger's book The Perfect Storm about the Andrea Gail fishing vessel. A young man had signed up for that trip, he and his father drove three states away to the docked boat, the young man needed the money for school, they drove all night and arrived at the boat in the early dawn. He walked up to the boat and took one look at it and turned to his father and said "I am not getting on that boat" he and his father drove away. I think sometimes you are given a gift in your gut that steers you towards safety. I think Lyuda was having this same gut feeling but she was brave and she didn't turn back.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Dona on April 16, 2021, 08:16:13 AM
Luda couldnt have left even if she wanted to. That would have left Zena, alone on a mountain with 7 men. That would not have been acceptable in those times.. or maybe even not allowed..
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Manti on April 18, 2021, 08:26:14 AM
Those times in Russia (and Europe) were different than in the anglo-saxon West. Gender equality was a big thing in the Soviet Union, and a communist ideal. They aimed for complete equality, in education, at work, equal rights, everything. There were statues in towns and cities dedicated to the "working woman". Women were actively encouraged to take up "masculine" professions. One girl hiking with 7 guys would not have been seen any differently to one guy hiking with 7 girls.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Dona on April 18, 2021, 09:07:11 AM
I was referring to propriety.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Manti on April 18, 2021, 09:54:40 AM
Deleted my nonsense comment, sorry..
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sarapuk on April 18, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
I was referring to propriety.
I know but, in my opinion, the idea that it would have been improper is foreign to Russian (and mainland European, except perhaps Dutch) culture. This idea originates in other cultures such as Victorian England (and Islam) and then spread to English colonies.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/839036?seq=1 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/839036?seq=1)
 

Why Victorian England  ! ?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Dona on April 18, 2021, 02:50:06 PM
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Dona on April 18, 2021, 02:54:06 PM
Could be..  I dont know.. I know I wouldnt do it  neg1 grin1
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sarapuk on April 19, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Dona on April 19, 2021, 12:24:32 PM
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?

Daft, again..
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: sarapuk on May 19, 2021, 04:32:47 AM
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?

Daft, again..

Try thinking before you post stuff.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 20, 2021, 02:13:55 PM


I do not have many changes to make since my post July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM     Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160

sarapuk is obviously right when he writes that there is no evidence to explain the DPI with certainty. But I think it is wise to take a cue from  Maya Leonidovna Piskareva 's a wise and lyrical statements when she is asking questions to  Mikhail Petrovich Sharavin (1935-2020) :

« you have so elegantly expressed your agreement, I am flattered. But, alas, we will learn the truth either from the state or when we find ourselves in the other world, where there are no illnesses, sorrows and grief...
 In the meantime, we are left to indulge ourselves intellectually in a game of investigations.»


I thank Teddy who has done the enormous task of gathering  and put in order, on his "forum.dyatlovpass.com", the informations and the various arguments that will allow us to gradually elaborate complete and realistic explanatory theories.

Because Dubina's diary appears to be genuine, it is important to explain Dubinina's strange changes so that they can be logically incorporated into a complete and convincing theory.


Part 1 , sabine : Reply #1 - 2 - 7 - 8

§-1-}   These posts by sabine are very interesting. Of course, I often agree with Sabine Lechtenfeld.
[/i]Dubinina was an intelligent and well-educated young woman, who was introverted and did not socialize easily
She seems to have been well organized and honest to a fault.
She didn't hesitate to speak her mind,   being socially awkward.[/i]

Yes : IMHO : There is clearly no such thing as premonition, telepathic thought transmission or influence of idiotic astrology.


§-2-}   sabine seems to me to have had an intuition of the right (i.e.my) solution at first. Then she reacts in the wrong way:
      "No ! No ! It is not plausible..."

But is not plausible to assume that a personal enemy of Lyuda would recruit helpers in order to wipe out the whole group.
IMHO, Nevertheless this is exactly in fact what happened : 1 or 2 clients, (commanders...) who stayed in Vizhay paid (probably 3) mercenary killers.

And therefore I think it's legitimate and necessary to look at a scenario where these facial injuries may have been inflicted deliberately, since the implications for the whole case are immense.
IMHO, the facial injuries have been inflicted deliberately which incriminates the Chekists of the NKVD and exonerates other suspects such as the Russian or foreign Zeks and the Mansi.


§-3-} A general query, addressed  especially to those who have psychological knowledge and who are interested in the issue of DPI,  (such as Sabine, mk,   ...etc.)

Why this widespread and strange refusal to adopt a criminal version (Murdered or Altercation on the pass), which has the great advantage of explaining in a simple way all the informations available nowadays  ??

For the Stalinists who want to hide the moral perversity of some NKVD leaders and of Stalin himself, it is understandable.
 But for the others...? ...eyes widely shut...? Hope or dream to live in a world without any violence...

§-4-} A cold case cannot be studied without understanding its historical context.
In the case of the DPI, it is essential to know the moral perversion that had infected some of the NKVD officers and functionaries.

 ••• To the misfortune of the Russian people (and perhaps to the misfortune of the communist ideology in the entire world) the sadistic tendencies of some camp guards of all ranks were encouraged by Stalin himself who had a typical sadistic personality.

For example, the historian Simon Sebag Montefiore (author of a famous biography of Stalin), testifies: "At a drunken dinner, Kamenev asked everyone around the table to say what was their dearest wish in life. Some said women, others answered sincerely that it was the progress of dialectical materialism towards the proletarian paradise. Then came Stalin's turn: 'My greatest pleasure is to choose a victim, to prepare plans thoroughly, to satisfy a relentless revenge and then to go to bed. There is nothing sweeter in the world. 


 •••  Khrushchev was aware of 2 disadvantages of the gulag system which he stated in his secret speech to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on 25 February 1956. (On the secret speech, which is quite lengthy and almost unreadable, see among many other sources : )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Cult_of_Personality_and_Its_Consequences

1°) It was the internment of millions of innocent and harmless citizens and the use of forced labour of the zeks in very harsh physical conditions.
2°) The Gulag system morally perverted a small number of the camp guards by turning them into sadistic psychopaths.
This explains why, in the eyes of Khrushchev's supporters, the de-Stalinisation implied the need for a harsh purge of the NKVD by the KGB.

As a result, it is almost certain that in Vizhay, located in the heart of Ivdellag, Stalinist Chekists were panicking over the holding of the 21st Congress of the CPSU (January 27 to February 5, 1959).
The extermination of Dyatlov's apolitical group (but who, with their exibition of the Voucher, was considered in Vizhay to be propagandists of the Thaw) was immediately understood in the Kremlin as a fierce manifestation of Stalinist opposition.

 ••• Among the testimonies on the poor living conditions in the camps and on the dehumanisation of some camp guards we have : Drawings from the Gulag by Danzig Baldaev(1925-2005)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/3/39/%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%2C_%D0%94%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B3_%D0%A1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87.jpg)

An available source in English :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review

With the drawings in “Drawings from the Gulag”, Baldaev tries to collect evidence and document the crimes of the Communist. At no time was it intended for commercial publication or was taken abroad, but rather seems to have tried to collect material to remind of the grievous acts after a regime change, or, at best, to provide evidence of trials.....
Due to his profession, he was an eyewitness to several crimes depicted in his book..............


§-5-}   So I recopy here this short excerpt written (in Russian) by Aleks Kandr.  
          Motives for murder:
     - Personal dislike of the "capital's youth" and revenge for the insults inflicted, which may have been of little consequence, say, in their perception of any of us, but not for a professional sadist who had served for many years in the NKVD in complicity with the Stalinist repressions of the 30-50s.

     - Hatred of the political changes taking place in the country after Stalin's death, epitomised by the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which against the background of rampant propaganda in the media to celebrate the opening of the 21st Congress of the CPSU, may have further motivated the murder of tourists who dedicated their trek to this (21°) party congress.



Part 2, BottledBrunette : Reply #16

I think that BottledBrunette has guessed a good research lead, to explain Dubinina's mood changes
To be simpler and clearer I am transforming a bit what BottledBrunette wrote while keeping (I hope) the important meaning of her Reply #13 post.

Quote from: BottledBrunette   on August 25, 2019, 11:36:05 PM    Reply #16 (in substance, essence)
........................
Dubinina clearly expressed her dissatisfaction with the very bad reception, which was intended to humiliate and also to swindle Dyatlov's group.

Consequently one of the men on Vizhay tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit or lot, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow. 

 Sensitive young girls who are sexually assaulted by attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, then their personality change.

I have heard that in these circumstances, women then undergo a profound psychological changes in their personality:.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc....

Dubinina's frustrations and anger were made worse by the fact that her 8 comrades seemed to accept everything and were not aware of these humiliating situations.

For Dubinina the mission of the leader Dyatlov was also to preserve the honour and interests of his group.
But instead of strongly protesting against the swindles and humiliations (coming from some unknown notables of Vizhay), Dyatlov submits by lazily dodging his duty to protest:

Dyatlov said with a smirk : "If the tea is cold, then go out and drink it on the street, it will be hot".

(Dyatlov's skills and interests were in science and sport, but not in bargaining and negotiating in front of oddly hostile innkeeper)

Kolgoromova seemed to have other concerns (that remain mysterious).

" I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all
nonsense"
(???,!)


 
Part 3 , writers in favour of « the fight in the night »

Vladimir Mihaylovich Askinadzi : « Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death. »

At this moment, to improve my "altecation" theory I merely read and wisely mix the good ideas of a few writers.

First the most remarkable ones:

••• Per Inge Oestmoen (812 posts since March 12, 2018, that almost all say : « All the evidence points to murder....»)
••• Eduard Tumanov (is pushing a theory that « hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders...»)
••• Aleks Kandr (His very elaborate theory, but written only in Russian on several websites)

There are also many other writers who are perhaps less convinced by the "overwhelming force of the punches thrown by the few attackers."

•••  Liyla79 - Noelle - hoosiergose - NightLurker - armyeng...etc...

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: EBE on June 23, 2021, 06:15:41 AM
I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one. Besides multiple traces indicating presence of someone else in the area of their death (putees, knife sheath, belt strap, spoon..), the hard evidence is clear: Autopsy reports. Almost all of them had injuries on the side or back of their head. Even Igor Dyatlov - this is not stated in the autopsy report, but is visible on one of the photos from the morgue.

Also, the fire at the cedar was by all means not a fire that would be made by the group to save themselves. It was used for a different purpose.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Manti on June 23, 2021, 11:04:07 AM
I might be completely wrong but I always interpreted Lyuda's diary entry about "bad mood" that will probably continue for the next two days as her being on her period.

Could be anything else really, but she seemed pretty sure it will continue for a specific number of days... makes you wonder...
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on November 28, 2021, 03:06:05 PM

                                 Reply #47
I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one.
.....................................................................

I have now become a self-proclaimed spokesman of a murder theory or criminal theory ( Криминальные on  https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0)

This theory was naturally formed by gathering the individual contributions of 3 main authors who are : Eduard Tumanov, Per Inge Oestmoen, Aleks Kandr.

Therefore, in recognition and tribute to those who might deserve to be called the founding fathers, I have chosen the name TOK theory.

TOK theory = Eduard Tumanov + Per Inge Oestmoen + Aleks Kandr =  murder or relentless "Altercation on the pass"

For the essential contribution of Aleks Kandr see :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
Of course you should not take into account the few ridiculous allusions to astrolology and telepathy which are completely useless and harmful.

I do hope one day to have the mental stamina to write a more complete argument about the TOK theory, but as WAB says :

You need a very large amount of text to explain your position. Especially considering the fact that many positions need to be explained in great detail,....I'm not a writer,..... I want the physical result of what happened, not the number of letters on a paper ....

                                 Reply #47
.............................................
Also, the fire at the cedar was by all means not a fire that would be made by the group to save themselves. It was used for a different purpose.

A weak point of the TOK theory is not the exit without proper equipment from the tent, but the orderly descent to the cedar.
      EBE has here introduced a new idea that may be introduced into the TOK theory.

                   It was the attackers who started the fire  so that they could fool the hikers by telling them:
It is deadly dangerous to stay near the tent. Go quickly to the first aid post under the cedar tree, where there is a fire.
   (This was a ruse (cunning, ploy..) that was part of the tactic of the planned murder of the 9 hikers)

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 06, 2022, 03:45:36 PM
The removal of the eyes and ears could be symbolic: 'You saw nothing, you say nothing."-hence removal of respective body parts. Probably just another coincidence though.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 06, 2022, 03:32:20 PM

Part  1

In the absence of sufficiently convincing material facts, clues of a pychological nature can be useful!

4 members of the site have underlined the importance of the change in Dubinina's behaviour better than I could have done.
More precisely they are: sabine, Teddy, RidgeWatcher, Georgi.

• [Quote from: sabine   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on May 12, 2019, 05:59:04 PM
           --->         Reply #1]

.......................
I rejected the idea as unlikely that Lyuda had a true premonition of doom and was in a telepathic contact with her eventual assailants. But I think nevertheless that it's very valuable  to look again at the evidence of the diary entries as well as at Lyuda's obduction reports and how they have been re-evaluated by various forensic experts. And since Lyuda wrote about her bad mood during the group's stay in Vizhai, it's interesting to take a closer look at the location.
.......................
 When investigating a suspicious death it's standard procedure to scrutinize the behavior of the victims shortly before their deaths and look for changes and unusual behavior.
.................................
 That she stopped to update her expedition diary is indeed concerning, since keeping a personal diary on a daily basis was considered to be one of the essential duties during these expeditions.
..................................
But  the big question remains: what caused this deterioration of her mood?
 To me it seems that she knows quite well what exactly is upsetting her!
[/quote]


• [Quote from: Teddy   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on May 13, 2019, 06:21:34 PM         --->        Reply #4]
.............................
It is true what Sabine says - we don't have information about her usual way of behavior, but one thing we know - she was very strict and to be the first one to disobey the rules most probably she made it is strange. To stop writing in her diary is also strange. What's you take on this?
[/quote]


• [Quote from: sabine   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on  May 13, 2019, 10:10:31 PM         --->         Reply #8]
.....................
Every investigator worth his/her salt should've taken a long and hard look at Lyuda's diary entries, and should've tried to find out by interviewing those who have been around during the stay in Vizhay, wth may have been bugging Lyuda
[/quote]


• [Quote from: sabine   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on May 14, 2019, 03:06:40 PM           --->         Reply #11]
The more I think about it, the less I believe that Lyuda was "mad as hel]" because she suffered from period-related symptoms. It's of course possible - but I have never heard a woman say that she is "mad as hell/ as the devil" because of her period. To me it sounds more as if something very specific made her really angry or furious, and I wonder why Lyuda didn't write down why she was so angry - especially since she accused herself of having a sharp tongue, which seems to imply that she normally didn't hold back her anger.
[/quote]


• [Quote from: RidgeWatcher   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on August 04, 2020, 09:47:52 AM           --->         Reply #24]
If we source Lyuda's behaviors during other hiking experiences then we can assess her behavioral contradictions in terms of her actions at Vizhay and afterwards.

After all, Lyuda sustained a bullet wound on a previous tourist hike and finished the hike while apologizing to her group for causing any delay and inconvenience.
Whatever happened in Vizhay was worse than a gun shot wound, no doubt, either physically or psychologically. Keep in mind that Lyuda was tough, smart and she was trusted by the group trusted her as the treasurer.
.............................
All in all, the Dyatlov group seemed to have a better and more comfortable time in the uninhabited 2nd Northern camp, than they did in Vizhay. That says a lot when reviewing the Vizhay experience.

I also think that Vizhay can be separated into two parts: Entering Vizhay to finishing the movie, and then to the hotel and their departure. From reading their journals I think that whatever happened took place after the movie finished. That Lyuda was very keen about whatever happened was quite evident.
[/quote]

• [Quote from: Georgi   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on August 12, 2020, 02:47:57 AM           --->         Reply #25]
I think that we can safely say that her behaviour during the trek and her actions were out of the ordinary. If we look at the hiking experience of the individual members and it's available here-->https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks we can see that she has had previous hikes with at least 6 member of the 10 person team, the only people she has not gone to hikes with in the previous 6 years are Zolotaryov for obvious reasons, Slobodin and Kolevatov. If this were her ordinary behaviour where she would at times refuse to participate in camp tasks that everyone should participate in and behaved in a manner to evoke negative reactions from her hike mates chances are she would not have been invited to a hike that would have lasted at least 21 days most of them in extreme weather in the wilderness. This was a trip where every member had to do their share for the success of the hike, so if in previous hikes she had been excessively moody, and refused to participate no one would have wanted an unreliable and untrustworthy member for a hike of this complexity, difficulty and length. To me, the fact that she had gone on previous hikes, was shot in the leg once before and was invited to a long, complicated, difficult, and exhausting hike it was because she was trusted to pull her weight and be a team player. This leads me to believe that the behaviour during the hike that we know of and the behaviour that was likely not written down was out of character for her which allowed he hike mates the ability to give her some leeway and also might indicate that something serious was bothering her.

She might have seen something she shouldn't have seen, or recognized someone who wanted to remain anonymous and her subconscious was bothering her because she might not have even realized what was wrong. What we know is that something was eating at her, what we can infer from the fact that she was on the hike is that her usual behaviour during hikes was professional and appropriate or she wouldn't have been invited on this once.
[/quote]

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Part  2

Historical part to be developed later...

On 25 and 26 January, the bad reception, from the Dyatlov group, which seems to have been the only one to exhibit :

« a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, “to render all possible assistance” in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU...» ,

is explained by a change of balance in "the small local mafias" of the Ivdellag - Vizhay - Ivdel region.

In 1957-58 the situation was particularly complicated in the Vizhay area because of the diversity of groups there and because the dismantling of the Gulag (house arrest of different nationalities, unemployed former camp guards, venal or dubious policy, genuine gangsters who had been released without due consideration....etc.)

When he died on 5 March 1953, Stalin left his companions (Beria, Malenkov, Kaganovitch, Khrushchev) an alarming legacy. Beria, with the support of his colleagues, took emergency measures to stabilise the Gulag; but soon there was dissension within the leadership group over what to do with the millions of victims of Stalin and the sprawling repressive and productive system. The period known as the Khrushchev Thaw (1953-1964) was marked by the struggle over this legacy and by the government's procrastination on Gulag reform. In the end, 5 million prisoners (Zeks)  were freed and the camps and exile villages were dismantled. Speaking to delegates at the 20th CPSU Congress on 25 February 1956, Khrushchev condemned a selection of Stalin's misdeeds and mistakes. His government secretly engaged in partial criticism of the great waves of repression and acceded to demands for the rehabilitation of almost a million victims, mostly posthumously....

All these mafias (political entities competing with the state for the monopoly of the legitimate exercise of violence), or simple groups with divergent interests, were also characterised by more or less permanent modus vivandi.

(modus vivandi = informal arrangements in affairs regarding disputed erea of influence, despite political, historical or cultural incompatibilities, for the sake of contingency).

Charles  has just wisely provided us several excellent and general links on these topics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat_(favors)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsekhovik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_mafia#1917%E2%80%931991:_Soviet_era
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Grossman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_criminal_tattoos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1953%E2%80%931964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Stalinization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchev_Thaw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Party_Group

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Part  3

Teddy :
« I have solicited an opinion from Sabine Lechtenfeld, forensic psychologist from Hannover, Germany on the subject. What was tormenting Lyuda's mind in the days before the tragedy, was she feeling the impending doom or was she just a troubled soul ?»

Sabine Lechtenfeld was consulted as an expert by Teddy and as there is no decisive evidence, Sabine Lechtenfeld had no other possibility than to make speculations, conjectures.

But I am not an expert, I am writing here as an amateur historian (and I use the hypothetical deductive method: another subject to be developed later).

I start by doing a simple and seemingly silly school exercise ---> I select some sentences from sabine's text and I automatically transform sabine's questions into affirmations

I hope this will highlight Sabine Lechtenfeld's deep intuitions. That is what she is not allowed to say as an expert.

and the result is ....  Oh miracle ! I obtain the core of my working hypothesis TOK (hypothesis misleadingly called theory).

You may compare with the Reply #1
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg5845#msg5845


she  = Dubinina spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way..

••  she notice something which struck her as bad, but she hesites to put it down in writing..

••  she mulled it over and it continued to bother her..

••  she was so occupied with these thoughts that she didn't even keep up her diary. She have stopped speaking her mind..

••  she noticed something which may have had a connection or even led to the terrible fate of the expedition..

••  she noticed something going on which in her opinion wasn't correct, so she  get mad and she is in an evil/horrible mood..

••  the eyes removed and the tongue cut out have an obvious significance : it is a  symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk.will never again be able to talk.

••  the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it.

••  Dubinina's facial disfigurations were the work of perpetrators [attackers] who mutilated her deliberately after she died.
 
••  the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it. It also could be a symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk.

••  she noticed something going on in her immediate surroundings before the skiing started, which bothered her greatly and caused her horrible mood.

••  she continued to mull it over, it occupied her mind after they had started their hike, and she become edgy and withdrawn to the point where she didn't even bother to keep up her expedition diary and stopped socializing.

••  she certainly knew why she was mad and in an evil mood.

••  she noticed something which greatly upset her..

••  she and her fellow members have been thought to be a potential danger for someone [the one that I call the "client"] or a group of people and their interests.

••  the  personal enemy of Lyuda [and of her dangerous group] recruited helpers in order to wipe out the whole group.

••  the expedition have been followed by their attackers. [or preceeded]

••  this was noticed by some group members [in particular by Tibo who tried to lighten the mood with his photo N° 17] , this could have sparked their jests about the existence of yetis.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Part  4

It will now be easy to extend this theme, involuntarily suggested by Sabine, with extrapolations such as :

In the so-called hotel, Dubinina realised that illegal operations were going on openly and had a dispute with a notable (of the kind of a fierce former Stalinist gulag camp leader) who had been dismissed by the Khrushchev's Thaw. (In what follows I will call him the client).


• Dubinina "who like to add fuel to the fire" = This is dishonest, illegal and against the laws of our beloved motherland.

• The client (very calm, but scornful) = Learn my little lady that here in Vizhay, I am in command.  You are not in Sverdlovsk.

• Dubinina (scandalized) = You are a bandit, I will report you to the police (when I can).

• The client (still very calm, but inwardly furious)) : In Vizhay the chief of police is my partner. Here we are the ones who make the law.
My little lady, you can do as you like, but you will soon see what happens to those who do not respect our laws.


At the end of this " dialogue ", which, seen from afar, might have seemed quite insignificant.
Dubinina,
••  is furious to find herself powerless in the face of such an affront to her (strict) moral concepts;
••  completely demoralised because, for the first time in her life, she realises that in her beloved motherland, in her Soviet paradise, corruption is everywhere;
••  slightly worried, because due to her keen female intuition she instinctively feels a threat that is not in vain.

The client,
•• is furious at this peronal who dares to insult him, whereas he had formely been in the habit of persecuting the zeks with impunity in the Stalinist camps ;
•• aftewards, as the days went by (25-29 January), already full of hatred towards this golden youth who had come to taunt him on his territory, the client became more and more worried: "Back in Sverdlovsk, with the support they have there, all these young scum are capable of creating serious trouble for me".
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 06, 2022, 05:40:23 PM
Hello Jean-Daniel,


It will now be easy to extend this theme, involuntarily suggested by Sabine, with extrapolations such as :

In the so-called hotel, Dubinina realised that illegal operations were going on openly and had a dispute with a notable (of the kind of a fierce former Stalinist gulag camp leader) who had been dismissed by the Khrushchev's Thaw. (In what follows I will call him the client).

• Dubinina "who like to add fuel to the fire" = This is dishonest, illegal and against the laws of our beloved motherland.

• The client (very calm, but scornful) = Learn my little lady that here in Vizhay, I am in command.  You are not in Sverdlovsk.

• Dubinina (scandalized) = You are a bandit, I will report you to the police (when I can).

• The client (still very calm, but inwardly furious)) : In Vizhay the chief of police is my partner. Here we are the ones who make the law.
My little lady, you can do as you like, but you will soon see what happens to those who do not respect our laws.

At the end of this " dialogue ", which, seen from afar, might have seemed quite insignificant.
Dubinina,
••  is furious to find herself powerless in the face of such an affront to her (strict) moral concepts;
••  completely demoralised because, for the first time in her life, she realises that in her beloved motherland, in her Soviet paradise, corruption is everywhere;
••  slightly worried, because due to her keen female intuition she instinctively feels a threat that is not in vain.

The client,
•• is furious at this peronal who dares to insult him, whereas he had formely been in the habit of persecuting the zeks with impunity in the Stalinist camps ;
•• aftewards, as the days went by (25-29 January), already full of hatred towards this golden youth who had come to taunt him on his territory, the client became more and more worried: "Back in Sverdlovsk, with the support they have there, all these young scum are capable of creating serious trouble for me".

No, there is absolutely no ground. You can't just imagine a dialogue from nothing and draw conclusions.

When I wrote this dialogue, all parts in red are quotes of Yudin, Slobodin or other sources from DPI archive or material directly derived from the diaries and the parts in blue are quotes of Herzog:

- How can you be friend with such arrogant nobs? (Krivonishenko playing to be poor: " handing a cap for change after singing a song." and "police charging him with deception")
- They are not my friends. (no mention of any regret to leave the group in Yudin's diary)
- But they seem to like you. (regret of the girls to see Yudin leave: "It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it.")
- They can't have feelings. ("but feelings - none.")
- Really?
- I have nothing in common with them. ("I couldn't feel the Person, his soul. Maybe that's why everybody that saw the movie was saying: "It feels so good, nothing is missing", they say "like life itself" ")
- How could it be?
- I can't explain it to you, but it is.
- Anyway, that thing they did, you don't do that.
- I know, they are not real Persons, they don't have souls. ("I couldn't feel the Person, his soul. ")
- They pissed me off and not only me: some of the boys began to say they'd like to kill them. ("They would have killed him")
- Could they? ("the Indians offered to kill Kinski for me. ")
- Would you like them to? ("Shall we kill him for you?")
- No they could not.
- Yes we can, it would be easy for us, we own this place, we do what we want, everything is possible. ("They would have killed him, undoubtedly, if I had wanted it", "We own this place and we do what we want" and "Everything is possible")
- They wrote a denunciation, in our group's diary, of your illegal prison songs. (Doroshenko: "We heard a number of illegal prison songs")
- The tall one with a fake smile, I bet ! We already knew these gentlemen were snitches.("Yuri Doroshenko, a fellow student, the tallest in the group" and "We heard a number of illegal prison songs")
- They were not worthy to hear the songs. ("we don't sing about the soul in places where there are some outsiders")
- And would you not be sad to know them dead? ((no mention of any regret to leave the group in Yudin's diary)
- As I told you: they have no soul, they are not Persons, but they are like machines, they are not real humans . ("automatic machines tuned to a spec. program", "I couldn't feel the Person, his soul" and "there are not living people")
...
- Will you do your job? ("Othello, he did his job")
- Yes, but we would just need to buy a few hours. (departure scheduled at 10:00 hours but actual at 16:00 hours)
- And I would just need an excuse not to die.("my leg began to hurt")


Writing a dialogue as a "thought experiment" does not relieve you of the obligation to base every word in reality.


And what is the ground of "In the so-called hotel, Dubinina realised that illegal operations were going on openly and had a dispute with a notable"? There is nothing in the diaries allowing such an hypothesis involving Dubinina. The one who might have discovered something was Yudin, as he wrote in his diary about Ryazhnev and Tatiana Polikarpovna's pension (the tip of the "iceberg").

And if there was a local mafia in Vizhay, it was Mansi. And there should be records of its existence. But in Soviet Union, many things were horizontal, as according to Hannah Arendt's book "The Origins of Totalitarianism" where she described the system as an onion with multiple layers. When the "war of the suka" began, it began in all the gulag system, simultaneously. Crack down of the lumpenproletariat, de-kulakization, purge of the generals, war of the suka, and even de-stalinization (the elite layer was tired of unstability and risk to be purged) were all phenomenons concerning layers of this "onion", it was horizontal.

Local mafias had been recorded in Soviet Union, as in Georgia it seems to me (maybe I am wrong), because in the Caucasus there was a long tradition of clan culture. And if there was a local mafia in Vizhay, it should have been Mansi and recorded. Local Mafia means mobsters born on site, like in the Italian mafia (Sicily, Calabra, Napoli), with family ties and solidarity. The "local" can become a mafia because of the strength of family ties. Otherwise, we call "gangs" these criminal organizations that began with random encounters (like la Brise de mer in a bar in France). But gangs are not mafias, they don't befriend with the police, they have limited means of action and they never last long.

Anyway you need to find a ground for your hypothesis and there is absolutely none. According to group's diary, the arrival in Vizhay was a kind of relief, where the hikers found "warmth" and "friendly atmosphere".

Charles

PS: I wanted to stop posting but the addiction is still alive.

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Ziljoe on July 07, 2022, 06:59:51 PM
I'm with Jean Daniel Reuss.

Mafia is a general term for a group of people contoling an environment , that could be through violence , family, friends religion etc. I don't think it ends at Italian mafia. I think you are taking it too literally Charles.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 08:15:33 AM
you are taking it too literally

No, Jean-Daniel was very specific, he even talked about a "proto-mafia" if I remember well... And then if we speak about "proto-mafia" and genesis of mafia, then we have to consider what is the data available about mafias. And we know that they rise locally, they begin with a territorial anchorage and family ties, and develop from this ground.

In the case of Italian mafia, it has been documented that it began in the huge agricultural domains of the aristocracy, when the aristocrats left to live in Rome, Paris or Vienna, and they delegated their power of feudal origin to domain managers. In the absence of the masters, these domain managers assumed the feudal power and made it last under and against the modern state administration. And thus, the parody of aristocracy with the "code of honor", catholic religious practice, initiation rites, oaths, fidelity, and so on. In Italy, the mafia was a local "counter-state" with a political dimension. It opposed the state administration, replaced it, doubled it and if possible was it (pushing its members at local key positions as mayor, chief of police, etc.).

In the case of other mafias, they are all ethnic, locally rooted, with a clan structure and a core of family ties.

If their was a "proto-mafia", as wrote Jean-Daniel, in Vizhay, then it was Mansi. Mansi had the local anchorage, their own culture opposing Soviet culture, and Stepan Kurikov even played with Soviet rules, being elected at whatever position he could in the local soviet system.

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 08:31:02 AM
And if there was a Mansi "proto-Mafia" lead by godfather Stepan Kurikov, the target of a mass murder would not be tourists from Sverdlovsk but members of a rival criminal organization... of an Ostyak "proto-mafia" or whatever other "proto-mafia" having the same range of influence and able to be a rival (rivalry implies some equality).
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 08:39:25 AM
she  = Dubinina spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way..

Dubinina was not even able to spot who began the discussion about love on Jan. 24:

no one even noticed how we started to discuss love issues (Dubinina's diary, Jan. 24)

Discussion about love provoked by Z. Kolmogorova. (Yudin in group's diary, Jan. 24)

She was only able to spot the youth and cuteness of the loggers.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 08:47:03 AM
the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely recognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it.

But a message sent to whom ? To the police ? How many locals had access to the autopsy ? Was it written in the newspapers that her tongue and eyes were removed ? So you have to check in the archives of newspapers if the detail of the removal of eyes and tongue was revealed to the public. And if it was not, then there is no message.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 09:15:16 AM
but I have never heard a woman say that she is "mad as hell/ as the devil" because of her period.

Some women can experience a very brutal depression during period, with physical pain, sudden outburst of tears, irritability, extreme tiredness, dark ideas... I've seen that as I had once a sensitive girlfriend, a talented pianist, who went every month through a few days of absolute misery. The effect of period on mood varies according to each woman, for some it is not a big deal, for others it is much harder.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 10:33:56 AM
About a "message", if killing 9 hikers from the UPI and removing Dubinina's tongue and eyes was a "message", therefore it was addressed either to their hiking organization or to the UPI, isn't it?

If it was a message, who was the recipient?

And if the "message" included the death of 9 people, then it was sent to a recipient who had less power than the author. Can you imagine a small and local criminal group sending such a message to any more powerful organization, criminal or not? It would be suicidal. Or the message was sent as a challenge, but from a group well aware of its own strength, able to survive the reply, and therefore not local and not small. 9 dead people can't be a message sent to CPSU, KGB or Soviet Police from any small criminal group.

So the group which was the author killed and butchered 9 tourists to send a message to a less powerful recipient... but who? Given all the rescuers, military, police, investigators, prosecutor, officials and so on who suddenly came to Vizhay, the message could have been "we are not only criminals without mercy, we are also the dumbest criminals ever".

If it was a message, who was the recipient?

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 08, 2022, 03:54:25 PM
                     Reply #59
.......it was a message, who was the recipient?
..............................................

Question : who was the recipient?

Answer :
Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular.

Dyatlov's group was considered by the Vizhay Stalinists as propangandists in the service of Khrushchev's politics because it carried a trade union voucher, in which hit addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU.
Unlike Blinov's group


Question : Can you imagine a small and local criminal group sending such a message .............. It would be suicidal.

Answer :
This was an attack of a terrorist nature.
 Indeed, it may have been suicidal: when the Kouachi brothers destroyed the anti-Islamic propaganda centre that was the editorial staff of Charlie Hebdo on 7 January 2015, they had little chance of escaping alive in the face of thousands of (gun-toting) police.



Question : Or the message was sent as a challenge, but from a group well aware of its own strength, able to survive the reply, and therefore not local and not small.

Answer :
This is also possible. Yes, as a challenge, a provocation.

The purge of the NKVD by the KGB was difficult and incomplete. All the powerful chiefs of the Gulag camps in the distant Siberian oblasts constituted a force that was neither local nor small. Moreover, all these well-organised notables of Stalin's time were united by a justified fear of losing their privileges and even of being sentenced to death.

I had in fact already answered this question.

Semyon Zolotaryov / Re: Could Zolotaryov be a saboteur?   Reply #14
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=734.msg16656#msg16656
...........
It was some of the mighty chiefs of the NKVD in charge of some of the camps of the Gulag linked probably to the Ivdellag.                       ;

Indeed the secret report of Khrushchev, of February 24, 1956, (which is very long and repetitive, but almost amusing to read), clearly implied the destruction of the NKVD (and therefore the liquidation of some officers guilty of atrocities) thanks to the efforts of the agents of the KGB (13 March 1954-6 November 1991), which was partly achieved until October 14, 1964 : "when the Presidium and the Central Committee each voted to accept Khrushchev's "voluntary" request to retire from his office...."

These officers (or already ex-officers) of the NKVD feared, with good reason (because like Josef Stalin, they had become typical psychopaths) of being judged and justly condemned to death as had been their most famous and excellent colleagues sentenced to death during the the Khrushchev Thaw period (1953-1964), for instance:
                    Bogdan Koboulov (1904-1953)
                    Lavrenti Beria(1899-1953)
                    Mikhaïl Ryoumine(1913-1954)
                    Viktor Abakoumov(1908-1954)
                    Vsevolod Merkoulov(1895-1954)
                    Amaïak Koboulov (1906-1955)
                    Boris Rodos(1905-1956)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Rodos
« Rodos was sentenced to death on February 26, one day after the Secret Speech. »


Question :... we are also the dumbest criminals ever.

Answer :
 Not as stupid as it sounds. For if the Stalinists and the opponents of the Thaw lost some battles, they finally managed to win the war by eliminating  Khrushchev on 14 October 1964 (albeit leaving him alive).
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Manti on July 08, 2022, 04:04:33 PM
It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body, then leaves it out in a secluded place in the middle of nowhere. It may never be found or be found as a skeleton. When the message is lost.

Instead, it is only an act to relieve one's anger. If it happened at all. But there is of course no proof that it happened. These may be natural posthumous changes. Also, in the cold, when under the influence of hypothermia, there are stages of uncontrollable shivering when it might be possible to accidentally bite one's own tongue in half...
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 05:57:11 PM
                     Reply #59
.......it was a message, who was the recipient?
..............................................

Question : who was the recipient?

Answer :
Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular.

Dyatlov's group was considered by the Vizhay Stalinists as propangandists in the service of Khrushchev's politics because it carried a trade union voucher, in which hit addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU.
Unlike Blinov's group

Question : Can you imagine a small and local criminal group sending such a message .............. It would be suicidal.

Answer :
This was an attack of a terrorist nature.
 Indeed, it may have been suicidal: when the Kouachi brothers destroyed the anti-Islamic propaganda centre that was the editorial staff of Charlie Hebdo on 7 January 2015, they had little chance of escaping alive in the face of thousands of (gun-toting) police.

So a small criminal organization, a "proto-mafia" of Vizhay, also motivated with politics, sent a message to "Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular", killing and butchering 9 students from UPI? And they were not all immediately slaughtered by the KGB? If you were right, there would be list of inhabitants of Vizhay who disappeared right after the event, and you could tell us their names. Khrushchev survived Stalin era, he had Beria killed (he was more a predatory animal than Beria himself), and threatened the US with nuclear missiles in Cuba... you think he was a soft man who would not immediately send the hardest and deadliest reply to such a  "message" ? Where is the list of the members of this Vizhay proto-mafia who all suddenly disappeared in 1959?

And this proto-mafia, which was quietly doing its own business in the remote Northern Urals, had the idea to challenge and threaten the government and drive the attention of Soviet power to itself ?

You concede it would have been suicidal, and give in example the fate of terrorists who face "thousands of (gun-toting) police". Khrushchev sent nuclear missiles in Cuba to threaten the US, but in Vizhay, to the waste and miserable remains of Stalin era threatening him personally, he just didn't send any harsh reply?

And it is all based on a voucher? But was Dyatlov's group the only one passing in the region having a voucher, or Blinov's the only group not having a voucher? You suppose that having a voucher was exceptional, but was it ? And if indeed it was rare, the group searched for geological samples in Northern 2 and Yudin took back a core, the locals could also have understood that the voucher was related to the sample, couldn't they? Why would they have interpreted the voucher in a political meaning rather that in the meaning of student gathering geological samples for their university?

And what about Dubinina's encounter in Vizhay whith a local mafioso, it triggered a political and terrorist action against Khrushchev and its government?

I am lost, dear Jean-Daniel, I can't follow you...




Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 08, 2022, 06:22:14 PM
Jean-Daniel,

I had a look at your list:

Bogdan Kobulov: General, member of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union, Head of the Main Economic Department of the NKVD/MGB, First Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs

Lavrentiy Beria: First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers and head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs

Mikhail Ryumin: Head of the Department for Specially Important Cases of MVD

Viktor Abakumov: Head of SMERSH in the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense, Minister of State Security

Vsevolod Merkulov:  Head of NKGB

Amayak Kobulov: Chief of the Main Directorate of State Security Foreign Branch's rezidentura in Berlin,  NKVD chief in Uzbekistan, People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of Uzbekistan

Boris Rodos: Colonel of the NKVD and Ministry of State Security, deputy head of the Investigative Department of the Main Board of State Security and People's Commissariat of State Security


What do such prominent people have in common with a Vizhay proto-mafia triggered by a voucher and a student girl ?

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 09, 2022, 10:21:01 AM
                     Reply #62
.............................................................
.........................................................
I am lost, dear Jean-Daniel, I can't follow you...

Thank you, Charles, for your very useful and relevant input.

So a small criminal organization, a "proto-mafia" of Vizhay, also motivated with politics, sent a message to "Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular", killing and butchered 9 students from UPI?

Yes, that is about it.

proto-mafia

French sovietologists seem to have got into the habit of using the word "mafia" directly and without particular precautions. Example: 
Anne-Gabrielle Castagnet
The Russian mafia differs from other mafias (Italian, Chinese, South American, etc.) in several ways. It is more a question of atypical management of the relational network than of the methodical setting up of an organisation. It is not a secret society, but rather a method of action and a complex relationship with power.

motivated with politics

They were especially frightened of destalinization which could deprive them of their privileges and even take their lives

killing and butchered 9 students from UPI?

Freezing to death 1 or 2 zeks from time to time was easy. 9 students from UPI, that was a serious matter. You could not push it too far...


And they were not all immediately slaughtered by the KGB?

••• They were discreetly eliminated by the KGB from 6 February 1959.

••• Well, maybe not all of them. The most important one or ones may have found an exoneration.

If you were right, there would be list of inhabitants of Vizhay who disappeared right after the event, and you could tell us their names.
Where is the list of the members of this Vizhay proto-mafia who all suddenly disappeared in 1959?


••• If we had this list, the DPI would not be an enigma.

••• Note that if I understand correctly it is in fact this list that some forum members, like sarapuk hope to have one day.


Khrushchev survived Stalin era, he had Beria killed (he was more a predatory animal than Beria himself), and threatened the US with nuclear missiles in Cuba... you think he was a soft man who would not immediately send the hardest and deadliest reply to such a  "message" ?

••• It is not possible to summarize the complexity of the Khrushchevian era (1953-1964) in 2 lines.
 
••• I do not think that Khrushchev was a soft man because for many Soviet leaders "the end justified the means".
However Khrushchev was not a psychopath like Stalin and from 1954 onwards, political manners became less bloody. Here is a passage from wikipedia on this point:

In 1956, in the end of the power struggle, Khruschev was reaffirmed in his position as First Secretary :
Aftermath

Malenkov, Molotov, Kaganovich and Shepilov – the only four names made public – were vilified in the press and deposed from their positions in party and government. They were given relatively unimportant positions:

    Molotov was sent as ambassador to Mongolia
    Malenkov became director of a hydroelectric plant in Kazakhstan
    Kaganovich became director of a small potash works in the Urals
    Shepilov became head of the Economics Institute of the local Academy of Sciences of Kyrgyzstan

In 1958, Premier Bulganin, the intended beneficiary of the anti-party group's move, was forced to retire and Khrushchev became Premier as well.

In 1961, in the wake of further de-Stalinisation, Molotov, Melenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov were expelled from the Communist Party altogether and all lived mostly quiet lives from then on. Shepilov was allowed to rejoin the party by Khrushchev's successor Leonid Brezhnev in 1976 but remained on the sidelines.

Khrushchev also deposed Defense Minister Zhukov in 1961. Zhukov had assisted Khrushchev against the anti-party group, but the two developed significant political differences in the following years. Khrushchev alleged Bonapartism as a justification for Zhukov's removal.

Khrushchev's treatment of his opponents, in that they were vilified and humiliated but not physically oppressed, marked a departure from earlier practice in Soviet politics (as last seen in 1953 during the purge of Lavrenti Beria) – a development that was followed during later power struggles, such as Khrushchev's own deposition by Brezhnev in 1964 and the failed coup against Mikhail Gorbachev in August 1991.

••• The future is unpredictable. Small cause, huge effects.  In history, this is an expression that sometimes turns out to be true.


And it is all based on a voucher?

Yes, at least in a large measure.

But was Dyatlov's group the only one passing in the region having a voucher, or Blinov's the only group not having a voucher?

••• I do not know, it is not very significant.

••• What is sure, however, is that the voucher of the Dyatlov group was displayed and was very useful in simplifying matters between the local police and Krivonischenko in Serov on 24 January.

And if indeed it was rare, the group searched for geological samples in Northern 2 and Yudin took back a core, the locals could also have understood that the voucher was related to the sample, couldn't they? Why would they have interpreted the voucher in a political meaning rather that in the meaning of student gathering geological samples for their university?

••• I did not understand this passage.

••• There is no connection between the Voucher's role and the perfectly normal and insignificant fact that Yuri Yudin brought back worthless mineral samples or drill cores from the North-2 dump.


And what about Dubinina's encounter in Vizhay whith a local mafioso, it triggered a political and terrorist action against Khrushchev and its government?

Yes, that is exactly it : it triggered................


Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 09, 2022, 11:41:52 AM
Dear Jean-Daniel,

So a small criminal organization, a "proto-mafia" of Vizhay, also motivated with politics, sent a message to "Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular", killing and butchered 9 students from UPI?

Yes, that is about it.

It is neither reasonable, nor believable.

motivated with politics

They were especially frightened of destalinization which could deprive them of their privileges and even take their lives

It is pure speculation. No ground.

And they were not all immediately slaughtered by the KGB?

••• They were discreetly eliminated by the KGB from 6 February 1959.

If you have the date, you should also have the names.

And it is all based on a voucher?

Yes, at least in a large measure.

But was Dyatlov's group the only one passing in the region having a voucher, or Blinov's the only group not having a voucher?

••• I do not know, it is not very significant.

How can it be "not significant"? If all tourist groups had a voucher, why would Dyatlov's be the only group targeted? Why not to kill the previous groups who had a voucher, and the following ones? Of course it is significant. If you make the statement that the voucher threatened people in Vizhay, you have to prove that it was the first time they had ever seen a group with a voucher. Or else, many other groups were also killed previously?

And if indeed it was rare, the group searched for geological samples in Northern 2 and Yudin took back a core, the locals could also have understood that the voucher was related to the sample, couldn't they? Why would they have interpreted the voucher in a political meaning rather that in the meaning of student gathering geological samples for their university?

••• I did not understand this passage.

••• There is no connection between the Voucher's role and the perfectly normal and insignificant fact that Yuri Yudin brought back worthless mineral samples or drill cores from the North-2 dump.

You said that people were threatened by the voucher, that because of the voucher, these people believed the group was sent to spy or to investigate or to spread propaganda or whatever. Your statement is that these people interpreted the voucher as a threat. My point is that even if it was the first time they had ever seen a group with a voucher, these people could have make another interpretation: linking the voucher with the collecting of geological sample by the student from UPI. How can you determine an interpretation rather than another and made by people you don't know, you can't name ?

Your statement is based on the interpretation that unknown people would have made of the voucher you don't know if it was common or unique.

And what about Dubinina's encounter in Vizhay whith a local mafioso, it triggered a political and terrorist action against Khrushchev and its government?

Yes, that is exactly it : it triggered................

It is not realistic. Dubinina as a Russian Nancy Drew fighting the mafia and triggering a terrorist attack that was sending a message the government of the USSR... no.

What is grounded in your story ? Where is the foundation ? There is none. We can explore an hypothesis, whatever it is, push it to its limits, check if it can resist critics and cross-examination, but here, nothing is standing firm.

Do you realize you're asking to believe that the motive was a mix of Dubinina's wit and Krushchev's politics? That is to say that there was no motive actually ! Because such a mix just means the total absence of motive.

My personal opinion is that you mix to many different things, you are sewing a patchwork of parts of theories, removing one part with another, but you will never end changing parts.

Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 09, 2022, 12:40:42 PM
motivated with politics

They were especially frightened of destalinization which could deprive them of their privileges and even take their lives

You are making a circular argument here. They sent a message to Kruchshev because they were Stalinists. But how do we know they were Stalinists? Because they sent a message to Krushchev.

Is there any ground? Letters? Confessions? Recorded incidents? Anything? No.

It is very likely that people were not happy in Ivdelag area because of Krushchev and de-Stalinization. But how can you know who was? And to what extent? Where are the records? Where is the data? Dyatlov's Pass archive is available, thanks to Teddy, and it is huge: where is the data? The quotes?

A political motivation of a coup d'Etat is understandable, fierce political fights inside the Soviet government, we know they were raging, but a terrorist message sent to Krushchev from Vizhay? No way! From Tverskaya street and Roublevka, from Furkasovskiy lane, yes, why not, but from Vizhay, no.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 10, 2022, 06:53:59 AM
                     Reply #66
.............................................................
 A *** ... You are making a circular argument here...........
.............................................................
 B *** ... A political motivation of a coup d'Etat ..........


 A *** I refute your objections of the circular argument with this small, very concise table, which you will easily understand since we are fellow citizens.
I apologise to the non-French speaking members of the forum who find this table unintelligible, but I will be able to give explanations later.

The Ivdellag guards were all NKVD or MVD functionaries, recruited during the Stalinist period (i.e. before 1953) since the Khrushchev regime no longer recruited guards but instead dismissed many of them.

B *** I have never invoked the idea of a coup d'état from Vishay, but that of a last gasp of agony of the Stalinist underground, which in 1957-58 was in full collapse.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
                                     Compared Heads of State
France - General de Gaulle (1958-1969)    <----------->       USSR - Nikita Krushchev (1953-1964)
 
                           Action or reform undertaken causing turmoil
Decolonisation of Algeria                 <----------->           De-Stalinisation and Dismantling of the Gulag

             Part of national population concerned and mostly dissatisfied
French inhabitants of Algeria (Pied noir) <-----------> Gulag guards, i.e.  Stalinists fonctionnaries of the NKVD or MVD

                             Approximate number of discontented people
a little over a million                   <----------->                a little under a million
 
              Part of the national population not concerned and mostly indifferent
French living in metropolitan France      <----------->       Soviet living in big cities far from Gulag camps

                       Some famous political opponents executed or shot
Jean Bastien-Thiry: 11 March 1963    <----------->     Lavrentiy Beria:   26 June 1953 or 23 December 1953
                                                            Vsevolod Merkulov: 23 December 1953
                                                            Bogdan Kobulov:    23 December 1953
                                                            Mikhail Ryumin:    22 July 1954
                                                            Viktor Abakumov:   19 December 1954
                                                            Amayak Kobulov:    26 February 1955
                                                            Boris Rodos:       20 April 1956


°°°°°°
To sum up my position simply, I am among those who think that the best explanatory hypothesis is that the 9 hikers were murdered.
My suspicions are becoming clearer, not about the KGB, some Mansis or escaped prisoners (zeks), etc., but about guards, or ex-guards, of the Ivdellag camps and who were therefore functionaries of the NKVD or MVD.
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 10, 2022, 08:23:00 AM
If you want to leave the circular argument, you have to bring a fact, a photo, a quote from Dyatlov's archive, any evidence that somebody in Vizhay declared himself as a Stalinist and a Krushchev hater. It is only possibilities you are talking about, and everything is possible. You don't bring the beginning of any material evidence relating the hikers to an hypothetical group of angry Stalinists. Here, instead of digging deeper into Vizhay, you walk away...




Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 10, 2022, 01:37:32 PM
And your analogy with Jean Bastien-Thiry contradicts your statement and add fuel to my critic because Jean Bastien-Thiry was a member of the French elite, he was a polytechnicien working in the military industry, not a dismissed prison guard living in a small remote village. When you write:

Quote
Jean Bastien-Thiry: 11 March 1963    <----------->     Lavrentiy Beria:   26 June 1953 or 23 December 1953
                                                            Vsevolod Merkulov: 23 December 1953
                                                            Bogdan Kobulov:    23 December 1953
                                                            Mikhail Ryumin:    22 July 1954
                                                            Viktor Abakumov:   19 December 1954
                                                            Amayak Kobulov:    26 February 1955
                                                            Boris Rodos:       20 April 1956

you even consolidate my critic : "From Tverskaya street and Roublevka, from Furkasovskiy lane". Tversakaya is the equivalent of avenue Matignon, Roublevka of Neuilly-sur-Seine and Furkasovskiy lane of rue Cambacérès (back door of Ministry of Interior). The French school Ecole Polytechnique being the equivalent of Russian MGIMO.

You cannot keep together a terrorist action addressed to Krushchev and the small village of Vizhay: when you find an analogy, it is with a case where protagonists belong to the same elite, to the same upper-class close to political power... I didn't make this analogy with Bastien-Thiry, you did it by yourself, dear Jean-Daniel... ;-)
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 10, 2022, 02:09:21 PM
Quote
The Ivdellag guards were all NKVD or MVD functionaries, recruited during the Stalinist period (i.e. before 1953) since the Khrushchev regime no longer recruited guards but instead dismissed many of them.

So who were these gulag officers living in Vizhay? I found two:

CHEGLAKOV Aleksey Semyonovich (Чеглаков Алексей Семенович) born in 1924 (Kursk region). In 1959 – the head of Vizhay camp department; lived in the settlement of Vizhay. He took part in the search as a guide of the Slobtsov group from Feb 23 to (approximately) Mar 3-4. In 1953 - Junior technical lieutenant of internal service, Assistant to the Chief of OVPK 9 forestry department; in 1959 - the head of the OVPK Vizhay camp department, then (according to his son Vladimir): a brigade leader in the prison camp; chief of supply department Burmantovo; in the early 70s he served with the rank of captain in the Ivdel region; finished service on Shipichnoye - the head of the prison camp, hold the rank of major.

HAKIMOV Zakiy Gasimovich (Хакимов Закий Гасимович) born in 1923, in 1959 - the head of the 8th (Vizhaysky) camp department N-240. Bashkir. 1953 - a member of the CPSU. In 1953 - junior lieutenant, operative of the 13th Branch of Ivdellag. In 1956 - a member of the Ivdel City Committee of the CPSU. In 1957-62 head of the 8th camp department. In February 1968 retired holding the rank of Major of Internal Troops and went to live outside the Ivdel region.

But they were not dismissed in 1953, their careers didn't suddenly stop under Krushchev !

And the people the hikers met during their journey were former inmates rater than former guards:

RYAZHNEV Georgy Ivanovich
Head of the 1st forest area of ​​the energy forestry plant;
Lived in the 41st quarter.
According to unconfirmed information: he was convicted while serving in the Far East. he served his term in Ivdellag, where he remained to live and work after his release.


REMPEL Ivan Dmitrievich (Ремпель Иван Дмитриевич) 1959 - a forester at the Vizhaysky forestry; lived in the village of Vizhay. Consulted Dyatlov on the route on Jan 25 (Testimony). In the 30s he lived with his family in the village of Arkadaksky district, Saratov region, worked as a teacher, salesman in a store. In 1937 he was convicted and stayed in the camps in Vizhay until the end of the war ; worked in the 2nd North and Vizhay camps. His wife and children were sent into exile to the Tyumen region when the war broke out. In 1946, Rempel brought them to Vizhay. They lived there until 1965.

VALYAKYAVICHUS (Uncle Slava)
Driver of the second forest area of the 8th lagging division
The conviction is judged in 1947 under art. 107 of the Criminal Code of the Lithuanian SSR for 10 years ITL, a conviction in 1953 verdict is canceled.


For these ones, we have records that they met with the hikers. Inmates, not guards...



Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 12, 2022, 04:11:02 AM

                          Reply #70
.....................

CHEGLAKOV - HAKIMOV --->
Quote
But they were not dismissed in 1953, their careers didn't suddenly stop under Krushchev !

Therefore we can logically deduce that Cheglakov and Hakimov are not guilty of the massacre of the 9 hikers.


RYAZHNEV - REMPEL - VALYAKYAVICHUS --->
Quote
For these ones, we have records that they met with the hikers. Inmates, not guards...

Rhyazhnev, Rempel, Valyakyavichus and all the residents of Settlement 41 (those who appear in the photographs as well as the more numerous ones who are not visible), are under house arrest.

In a more precise language, Rhyazhnev, Rempel, Valyakyavichus are persons who for precise (but complicated) juridical and legislative reasons have a legal status which in practical terms is equivalent to that of those commonly referred to under the general term of : under house arrest ("assignés à résidence", in French).

Is it necessary to add that the 5 persons mentioned above are not the only inhabitants of the relatively large region of Ivdel, Vizhay, Ivdellag and its adjoining areas (and therefore likely to be present at the Club or at the so-called hotel on 25 and 26 January 1959) ?
Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Charles on July 12, 2022, 08:53:50 PM

                          Reply #70
.....................

CHEGLAKOV - HAKIMOV --->
Quote
But they were not dismissed in 1953, their careers didn't suddenly stop under Krushchev !

Therefore we can logically deduce that Cheglakov and Hakimov are not guilty of the massacre of the 9 hikers.

The point is that in the long list of the the people involved in the case, they are the only two gulag guards living in Vizhay. We don't care if they were guilty or not: they are the only two gulag guards living in Vizhay having met with the hikers and they were not dismissed after 1953. This is the available data.


RYAZHNEV - REMPEL - VALYAKYAVICHUS --->
Quote
For these ones, we have records that they met with the hikers. Inmates, not guards...

Rhyazhnev, Rempel, Valyakyavichus and all the residents of Settlement 41 (those who appear in the photographs as well as the more numerous ones who are not visible), are under house arrest.

In a more precise language, Rhyazhnev, Rempel, Valyakyavichus are persons who for precise (but complicated) juridical and legislative reasons have a legal status which in practical terms is equivalent to that of those commonly referred to under the general term of : under house arrest ("assignés à résidence", in French).

Is it necessary to add that the 5 persons mentioned above are not the only inhabitants of the relatively large region of Ivdel, Vizhay, Ivdellag and its adjoining areas (and therefore likely to be present at the Club or at the so-called hotel on 25 and 26 January 1959) ?

How can you write "are under house arrest"? How do you know? Many former inmates never came back to their previous lives, just because these lives existed no more. They stayed in the same region, for years, aging, till death. And even if some were under house arrest, what's the point? I named them because they met with the hikers, because this is the available data, and they came from camps, but not as guards, as inmates.

According to the available data, there were former gulag guards named in the case, but they were not dismissed after 1953 and they didn't meet with the hikers, and there were people from the gulag who met with the hikers, but they were not guards, they were former inmates. The available data contradicts your theory, you can add speculation about house arrest and guilt, it does change the fact that the data contradicts your theory.

The list of people involved in the case is precious and quite long, please find the former guards living in Vizhay who met with the hikers: https://dyatlovpass.com/whois ...


Title: Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 18, 2022, 02:58:13 PM

                     Reply #61
• It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body,
• then leaves it out in a secluded place in the middle of nowhere. It may never be found or be found as a skeleton. When the message is lost.
• Instead, it is only an act to relieve one's anger.
• If it happened at all.
• But there is of course no proof that it happened. These may be natural posthumous changes.
• Also, in the cold, when under the influence of hypothermia, there are stages of uncontrollable shivering when it might be possible to accidentally bite one's own tongue in half...

Eventual general objection

It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body,

Answer from Sabine Lechtenfeld, forensic psychologist from Hannover, Germany :

...the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it. It also could be a symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk.



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Objection raised from Manti :

It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body,
then leaves it out in a secluded place in the middle of nowhere. It may never be found or be found as a skeleton. When the message is lost.


My answer :
1 ••••
In 1959, Krushchev's government could not logically remain inactive in the face of such a clear and obvious provocation from its opposition movements

The slopes of Kholat Syakhl and the surrounding taiga were, of course, an uninhabited area, but it was not the South Pole....

On the contrary, we learn here that this whole area could often be traversed by a crowd of people practicing various professional or leisure activities.

(Mansi hunters, loggers, foresters, geologists, mineral prospectors regularly blowing up 5 kg mines, gold miners perhaps engaging in illegal trafficking, Russian hunters on holiday....etc.)

In addition, the Soviet authorities had secured the collaboration of some Mansi who were able (through training started in childhood) to interpret tiny clues detected in the wilderness: even old tracks in the snow, broken twigs, animal behaviour, bark...etc.

2 ••••
In fact, the Soviet authorities, with the KGB in the lead (which intervened effectively from 6 February), did not remain idle.

Two heavy (16-passenger) Mil Mi-4 helicopters and several observation and transport planes were deployed from Ivdel airfield

How many people participated in the search for the Dyatlov group?

Till the end of Feb were involved 46 men, mostly students.
After that were sent 5 more groups of students, each 5 to 10 ~ 45
Military railroad workers including the sappers (8+5) = 13
Ivdellag guards (military unit 6602) min of two interchanging groups = 20

All in total about 120 men.


3 ••••
What happened was that the first 5 corpses were discovered quickly after the discovery of the tent (and autopsied a few days later).
27 February: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Dyatlov and Kolmogorova.
5 March: Slobodin.

For the last four (in the ravine) it was necessary to wait until 5 May, when the snow had not yet completely melted.

In any case, the last 4 corpses would certainly have been found as soon as the snow had melted completely (the end of June, I believe, but I could be wrong).

The bodies could not be washed away by the streams, as dams had been built in good time. (i.e. before the 5th of May).


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/6S-12.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/6S-12-1.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/6S-13.jpg)

4 ••••
The message could hardly be lost.

But as well as to the Krushchev government the message was a warning to all the population of Ivdel and of the ivdellag area :

" See what could happen to those who do not respect our laws (which are not those of the Kremlin)."

The message could hardly be lost and it was not lost.




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Objection raised from Manti :

Instead, it is only an act to relieve one's anger.

My answer :
 
1 ••••
Specifically, the massacre lasted for several hours and was spread over more than a kilometre. Anger was the cause of the stabbings in the canvas of the tent and of the trampoline exercises on the rib cages of Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

2 ••••
But the removal of the eyes and tongue is evidence of premeditation and the willingness to impress.

Indeed, it was necessary to plan in advance an attacker with a minimum of training to carry out these mutilations properly.
It was also necessary to provide light instruments such as a small spoon with edges previously sharpened with a grinding wheel.


3 ••••
Another clue to the TOK theory (which is to understand the subtle nuance between the two English adjectives: "intelligent" and "wise") was mentioned by :

     RidgeWatcher  : Altercation..> Altercation.. on July 07, 2020, 02:02:20 PM    ---> Reply #37

« I do believe that Dubinina said to much and her diary entries revealed this knowledge, unconsciously, with her uncustomary angst and anxiety. She was young, strong and brave but opinionated at age 21.»

The intelligent man knows what to say or what should be said.
The wise person knows whether he or she should say it or not.

Dubinina was an intelligent (and brave) girl but clearly not a wise person. I generally like to add fuel to the fire,

Zolotaryov being the most experienced and the oldest of the Ten was probably the wisest.
Thus Zolotaryov could intuitively sense the pycholgic stress in Vizhay on 25 and 26 January.
While the other 8 hickers (there was still Yuri Yudin) felt and understood absolutely nothing.

So the only two hikers (Dubinina and Zolotaryov) who could have spoken unconsciously recklesssly in Vizhay,, on 25 and 26 January, were the very ones whose bodies were found mutilated on 5 May.
This is a disturbing coincidence....

4 ••••
Another remark that goes in the same direction of premeditated mutilations
Kolgomorova       ---->    dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
 
The attacker specialised (or in charge) of mutilations had at first confused Dubinina with Kolgomorova.

When he realised that Kolmogorova (who fell first ten minutes after leaving the tent according to TOK) was not Dubinina, he stopped treating Kolgomorova and only had the opportunity to mutilate Dubinina several hours later.



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Objection raised from Manti :

If it happened at all. But there is of course no proof that it happened.

My answer :

1 ••••
Aleks Kandr has devoted a whole page in Russian to this subject

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

2 ••••
DU did not record any traces of vital activity of "small wild animals" either near the bodies or on the bodies of the tourists, including the soft tissue of the face,

3 ••••
The first 5 bodies were left under a shallow layer of snow for about a month and were left untouched by the small wild animals. (As well as by the wolverine, but that's another subject).

4 ••••
It is worth paying attention to another, no less "mysterious" circumstance, which inexplicably influenced the choice of these "small wild animals": concentrating his gastronomic preferences only on the bodies of L. Dubinina and A(C). Zolotareva, in terms of eating not so much their soft facial tissues, but on the food of the tongue and eyeballs. The fact is that it was these two tourists who recorded in the EMS acts the most serious fractures of their ribs, probably the cause of their immediate death.
Agreed, there is something strange about the behavioural characteristics of "small wild animals", deliberately eating clean organs (tongue and eyeballs) in only two of the nine tourists who had multiple rib fractures.




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Objection raised from Manti :

Also, in the cold, when under the influence of hypothermia, there are stages of uncontrollable shivering when it might be possible to accidentally bite one's own tongue in half...

My answer :

Generally speaking, injuries and bitings of the tongue for various causes are not very rare, but it is exceptional that they result in a complete section in 2 parts.

Moreover, contractions of the jaw could only split a human tongue in two in front of the incisors.
All the important part behind the incisors would have remained very visible.
 The autopsy report states that the tongue is missing and not  simply cut off in two parts.