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Author Topic: Which commonly known "facts" are not factual?  (Read 14168 times)

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April 03, 2022, 06:36:07 PM
Reply #30
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marieuk


Fact: Igor Dyatlov was a good leader.

Actually : his team was always behind schedule, he overestimated the ability of his team to complete the hike, he felt so entitled he allowed himself to punish adults during their vacation, he had such poor leadership skill he allowed himself and other boys to be arbitrarily and unfairly be rude and agressive with some members of the team, he had no sense of team building whatsoever, no ability to solve interpersonal issues and no ability to motivate individuals.

I'd  be interested to hear more about this.  sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. do you think he behaved differently on this trip to other ones?
 

April 04, 2022, 08:20:35 PM
Reply #31
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Ziljoe


Fact: Igor Dyatlov was a good leader.

Actually : his team was always behind schedule, he overestimated the ability of his team to complete the hike, he felt so entitled he allowed himself to punish adults during their vacation, he had such poor leadership skill he allowed himself and other boys to be arbitrarily and unfairly be rude and agressive with some members of the team, he had no sense of team building whatsoever, no ability to solve interpersonal issues and no ability to motivate individuals.

I'd  be interested to hear more about this.  sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. do you think he behaved differently on this trip to other ones?

I'm interested also. I would like to hear your evidence for conclusion to your statements.
 

May 06, 2022, 01:40:13 PM
Reply #32

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:06:50 PM by Charles »
 
The following users thanked this post: marieuk

May 09, 2022, 12:46:48 AM
Reply #33

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:04:02 PM by Charles »
 
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May 09, 2022, 03:20:33 PM
Reply #34
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

This is also interesting. I personally see some of it as speculation as we can't be clear as to the motives by others to what they write . However, again the lack of the diary entries do raise a question. Although the photos do show a lot of humour and joy within the group. 
 

May 29, 2022, 03:20:49 PM
Reply #35
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Not enough evidence to say that Igor Dyatlov was a poor leader. Leadership can be challenging and that can also explain some moody moments.
DB
 

May 31, 2022, 02:34:44 PM
Reply #36

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:04:12 PM by Charles »
 

May 31, 2022, 03:07:09 PM
Reply #37

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:04:23 PM by Charles »
 

May 31, 2022, 03:54:43 PM
Reply #38
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Ziljoe


Dear Ziljoe,

Although the photos do show a lot of humour and joy within the group.

Yes, but most of the photos are "posed". They are posed in the same sense as

« As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep. » and « Had a surprisingly good overnight »

is posed and diverges from

« Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. (…) And so they had a long argument (…) Lyuda remained seated (…) except two attendants and Lyuda. (...) Guys are terribly outraged. (…) Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner. So another day of our trek went well. »

which is reality.

For example, this photo is posed (unknown camera, frame N°3) :



And this one (unknown camera, frame N°4) is not :



You can zoom in and compare Zina's face on both of the photos... and even her right arm if you are interested in body language.

So material from the diaries and cameras has to be classified according to its meaning status. Words which have been crossed out in a diary have a different status, they don't have the same kind of meaning, they don't carry the same burden of meaning... Material does not have always the same depth of meaning, everything is not univocal...

Greetings

Charles

Sorry Charles, I don't get your point from the photos.  A snap shot says nothing. What about the right arm?
 

May 31, 2022, 04:06:31 PM
Reply #39
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Ziljoe


Not enough evidence to say that Igor Dyatlov was a poor leader. Leadership can be challenging and that can also explain some moody moments.

Please, read the diaries.

I'm with sarapuk.
 

June 01, 2022, 05:53:26 AM
Reply #40

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:04:36 PM by Charles »
 

June 01, 2022, 08:53:26 AM
Reply #41
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Ziljoe


A snap shot says nothing.
A snap shot says nothing but then a posed photo says less than nothing... and so we agree about the meaning of the smiles. wink1

I am asking about the right arm , what do think it means? It looks like she's reaching for her breast pocket.
 

June 01, 2022, 09:20:22 AM
Reply #42

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:04:47 PM by Charles »
 

June 01, 2022, 09:44:12 AM
Reply #43
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Ziljoe


It looks like she's reaching for her breast pocket.

Yes, she's not posing in the second photo. You have two photos taken between a few seconds, maybe two or three minutes. The first is posed and Zina is smiling, the second is not posed and she is not smiling. That's all: it is better not to rely on posed photos to assess the moral of the group.

But there were smiles that looked quite natural . Although they may assemble for an actual pose ,  I don't see anything to imply there was friction in the group. The diaries are written in a way that all will see. There would be little to write about , so any slight disagreement , the stove being too hot , or talk about love for example , would actually be note worthy to enter into the diary. There wouldn't be much to write about otherwise , let alone pass the time.

 
 

June 03, 2022, 01:29:25 PM
Reply #44

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:04:57 PM by Charles »
 

June 03, 2022, 04:14:26 PM
Reply #45
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Ziljoe


Dear Ziljoe,

But there were smiles that looked quite natural . Although they may assemble for an actual pose ,  I don't see anything to imply there was friction in the group.

Of course some are natural, but other are posed, and most of the photos are posed. My point is only to underline that it is not possible to rely on the photos to assess the moral of the group (at least we have to distinguish posed and not posed photos). But seemingly, you would like to do so... forgetting the absolute cruelty and brutality of the outcome. You don't deny this outcome, do you ? Because the end was a hell of fear, suffering, agony, despair and death... just to remind you.

The diaries are written in a way that all will see. There would be little to write about , so any slight disagreement , the stove being too hot , or talk about love for example , would actually be note worthy to enter into the diary. There wouldn't be much to write about otherwise , let alone pass the time.

So, the diaries are to be sent to the trash bin ? All right... They were walking to a horrible death, writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel, and so on, but all this material would be meaningless ? Why not ? Can we even say they died in the end or is it too much to state ?

Greetings

Charles



Hi Charles

Within the posed photos, there seems to be smiles that are not always easy to fake if someone is not happy. I don't see signs of fear or anxiety. I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to communicate
Cruelty and brutality is by the assumption that others caused the harm intentionally.
I am not in agreement  at the moment that this was the case.

As for the diaries , I haven't seen the word sex used? When they talk about love it may refer to marriage, dating, kissing and there hopes for the future happiness. I don't think this is an odd topic , having shared my life with groups of females and males, involving camping also ,amoungst other things, all simallar topics have come to discussion along with God , bigfoot , life and death for example , also people have fallouts, affection's for others and harbour a secret lust for others. Happens every day , we are human and their diary , to me , doesn't seem to imply anything too radical. I appreciate your in-depth look at the diaries though. I'm not sure of the emotive use of these words. (writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel,). Because it misses out the positives. It's like lumping all the broken bones together across the 9.

It is difficult to be neutral if  you have a preconceived idea of  what occurred to the dyatlov group. It's like making an assumption and trying to make the evidence fit.( That's not directed at you Charles).

Im not sure if you are implying they fought each other or it was outsiders? What your links to the diaries and outsiders is.

 

June 12, 2022, 11:58:27 AM
Reply #46

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:05:07 PM by Charles »
 

June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM
Reply #47
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

I look forward to you finishing your hypothesis.

If it were outsiders , I would expect they had a gun to control the group. One of my   problems with  outsiders is the camera films being left . No one would know what was on them , so I would have expected them to be destroyed.

As for the signs.I always thought this was referring to the Mansi signs on the trees?

"In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place.


Many thanks

Ziljoe
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 02:57:37 PM by Ziljoe »
 

June 12, 2022, 03:47:21 PM
Reply #48

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:05:33 PM by Charles »
 

June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM
Reply #49
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Jean Daniel Reuss



              Reply #48
.....................................
              Reply #47
.....................................

I notice that Charles has now stopped supporting the unbelievable theory "that hikers took part in a fight between them".

So I will adopt Charles' idea - brilliant in its simplicity - that the fatal altercation took place not in the darkness, on February 1 from 8 PM, but in the daylight, on February 2 from 9 AM.

Thus, with a few modifications of moderate importance, my already obsolete TOKEB theory can be transformed into TOKEC (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - Charles).


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Answer for Ziljoe :
The question of Zotaryov's camera is unimportant, because it can be easily explained in various ways. For instance

           1° This camera was always attached to the collar of Zolotaryov's jacket.
           2° In full daylight, the attackers clearly saw that Zolotaryov did not have the opportunity to take a single compromising photo,
or else it is also the attackers who have unleashed themselves the 11 snapshots through a cloth using a slightly dirty lens.

   Star man : The Cameras ; December 30, 2018, 02:17:31 AM --->   Reply #22
First of all why did he [Zolotaryov] have it around his neck when he was found?  The only reasonable explanation is that he was already wearing it around his neck when he left the camp site and before whatever events started.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Now I summarize here some ideas which could be used to develop TOKEC.

    ••• Soviet officials (UPI Sports Club, Route Commision, PCSU....) have underestimated the hostile anti-Russian ambience in this region of the Urals (Vizhay, Ivdellag....) and have sent or let go the hikers, exemplary citizens, into a viper's nest (wolf's mouth).

Normally the hikers should not have stopped at District 41.
[We had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st.
we had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st. (Dubinina)

Loose}{Cannon :
 These hikers are in the communist party.  All devotion and complete commitment to the party is required to be a "good", communist, especially when your a young lad attending the communist state technical school where they were likely hand picked for a promising future in a high-tech industry like enriching plutonium and long distance communications....

    ••• The persistent cover-up by successive governments is simply explained by the need to hide the shameful incompetency of the KGB and other police forces.


    ••• Three categories of men had valid reasons to feel a fierce hatred against the Khrushchev regime.

     1° The house arresters who constituted a small part of the District 41 personnel.  The ones we do not see because they refused to appear on any pictures.
In the kind of sons of Polish officers massacred in Katyn.......

     2°   Among the locals there were peaceful Mansi tribes (Kurikov, Bahtiyarov, Anyamov). But
 
  Grigoriy Nikolaevich Kurikov: said that "near [a moutain not located]..... there live ... Ostyaks. They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people............And these Ostyaks could kill the hikers because they thought that hikers could kill their deer and moose, which they feed on".

There were those who "leads anti-Soviet agitation among Mansi against the unification of Mansi into collective farms, against sedentarism, incites hatred among Russians and the existing Soviet system, claiming that the Russians bring only death to Mansi".

It is the predictable and inevitable clash of 2 irreconcilable civilizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism

     3° Former Stalinist guards of the Ivdellag (specialized in the pursuit and the elimination of the rare escapees from the camps before being reduced to unemployment by the dismantling of the Gulag) who were opposed to the Krushchev's Thaw (1953 or 56 -1664), (it is the "K" of TOKEC).


    ••• These 3 categories of people :
••   found themselves, willingly or unwillingly, constrained to live in the same vast territory: in the vicinity of Vizhay and Ivdellag
••   for many years.
The same hatred of the USSR or of the Degel logically joined their competences and their murderous determination.


    ••• The hikers, who thought they were living in the Soviet paradise, were not very clever in their diplomacy.
In Vizhay and even more so in District 41, the hikers were felt by some people as a provocation.
 Dubinina by intuition and perhaps also Zolotariov by his long experience were affected by it causing a dull concern and a psychological uneasiness.
     
    ••• The hikers had described and (too) much talked about their route to reach Ortoten through the Auspya valley.
But this valley is a bad route because there is a lot of soft snow in the taiga, which slows down the progress.
There are at least two other faster routes from Vizhay or North-2 to the slope of the Kholat Syakhl.

So the attackers (murderers) did not follow the hikers' trail in the Auspya valley.

    ••• Planning of the ambush in an isolated place (slope of Kholat Syakhl)
 Not in the taiga where there are too many trees.
The fire, the observation post on top of the Cedar, the 4 beds of branches were made and used by the attackers.

Thus the attackers saw the hikers set up the tent on the evening of February 1 and ascended from the Cedar to the tent on the morning of February 2 when it was daylight.


    ••• On the morning of February 2,  in daylight, i.e. when the effectiveness of a verbal gun threat is likely, some of the attackers visibly and amicably approached the tent
  With a single shotgun with all the required legal permits and powerful ammunition for hunting bear or elk.

[Nikolay Pavlovich Anyamov
Mansi had to register their weapons in Ivdel. Any other weapons would have been illegal, and the punishment was severe.


    ••• A friendly conversation starts with a hiker, for example with Tibo, who is well dressed outside of the tent.
....... and suddenly a warning shot and an imperative order addressed to the 8 other hikers still inside the tent
"Obey our orders strictly or we will kill your comrade".

"Get out of your tent immediately and go down slowly in ranks towards our camp at the foot of the Cedar where there is fire. Otherwise we will kill your comrade."
  "Be reasonable and all will be well", (another treachery).


    ••• Among the attackers, the hunter had the legal authorization to carry a hunting weapon.
The loggers, who were trained in the felling of trees with long-handled axes, obviously knew how to use the birch wood blunt objects wrapped in rags, with vigour and precision.


    ••• The desecration of the corpses of defeated enemies was often constated in history (Dehumanization,brutalization, revenge, throphy taking...). An example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

The myth of small rodents choosing their dessert under the snow was invented not to scare children and sensitive souls......
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

June 13, 2022, 07:36:48 PM
Reply #50
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Ziljoe


To Jean Daniel Reuss

My argument about the camera films is.
If any professional group of murderers or hit men were involved ,, taking care  into account, premeditation of the task at hand. They would not know if they had been photographed at anytime or beforehand at any location along the route.

Obviously I'm not a professional killer and I have no intention to be so neither vam I a unprofessional killer. .... But on both accounts I would destroy the camera films.  If any of this was staged, ogovernment or loggers , the first thing I would do is destroy the film's. This even goes to teddy and the potential of her theory.  A snapshot could have been taken at any time that showed the reason of the deaths. Whether that be several days in advance or otherwise.?
Why take the chance, ? .
 

June 14, 2022, 01:01:41 AM
Reply #51

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:05:51 PM by Charles »
 

June 18, 2022, 01:36:21 PM
Reply #52
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Jean Daniel Reuss



The DPI can be compared to a huge jigsaw puzzle in which the pieces are made up of the documents at our disposal.

Everything has to fit together to build the most plausible, most coherent and most complete theory possible.

Maya Piskareva   --->
«.....But, alas, we learn the truth either from the state, or when we find ourselves in another world, where there are no diseases, sorrows and sighing ... In the meantime, it remains to intellectually entertain ourselves with a game of investigation.....»

Taking advantage of Charles' new ideas, I am transforming my TOKEB theory into TOKEC (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - Charles).



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Some brief insights into TOKEC

No staging and most of the materials are true.

Hostage taking, with death threats against one of the 9 hikers, in daylight, on the morning of 2 February, to explain the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar.

Presence in the vicinity of the Ivdellag of a group of men animated by a hatred and a murderous rage, the reasons for which can be explained by the history of the dismantling of the Gulag during the Thaw.

(By convention of language I continue to call them "attackers" ).

For the attackers the 9 hikers appeared to be propagandists directed by the PCSU via the Sports Committee and the Road Commission and were therefore enemies.



              Reply #50
If .........murderers....... They would not know if they had been photographed at anytime or beforehand at any location along the route.....
... I would destroy the camera films..............................
... the first thing I would do is destroy the film's......................

         1°   
The case of the cameras that were left in the tent.

The attackers were pretty sure that there was nothing compromising in the cameras inside the tent.

Nobody wants to be seen next to their own enemies in a photograph !

The people in Vizhay (26 January) and the workers from District 41 (27 January) who appear in these photos have no hostile intentions towards the hikers



At these events, the attackers did not want to be photographed and moved away.
 

         2°   
The decision for the massacre was taken after Yuri Yudin returned to District 41, i.e. on the evening of 28 January 1959.
Yuri confirmed the route of the (now 9) hikers (through the Auspiya valley) and the attackers departed on 29 January or perhaps only on 30 January.

The attackers did not follow the tracks of the hihers in the Auspiya valley because they knew the faster route which is the route of the Unknown expedition.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-Auspiya-map-routes-cropped-thumb.jpg

The attackers set up camp at the foot of the cedar tree on 1 February. A little before the hikers set up their tent higher up the slope of Kholat Syakhl (the attackers' interception of the hikers could have failed).


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The case of the camera which is carried by Zoloraryov.

         1°   
You reason logically like a person who, at least I assume it, writes calmly on his computer keyboard.

But at the end of a risky, physically exhausting and extremely stressful operation, the attackers did not notice the unexpected presence of this camera.
(The psychological phenomenon that sometimes we only see what we are looking for).

         2°   
• While fighting on the Eastern Front, Zolotaryov had felt the advantage of having a weapon instantly available.
• Returning to a peaceful, touristy civilian life, Zolotaryov had developed the habit of attaching his camera to his jacket in an often inconspicuous way.
Often wild animals (elk, wolverine, bear) appear and then disappear quickly and it is useful to always be ready (to trigger the camera).
• Which is perhaps another reason why Zolotaryov's camera was simply not noticed by the attackers.

(cf. the close-ups of Gorojanin).
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.