Theories Discussion > Murdered
Mansi Hypothesis
Зайцев:
Charles, why are you giving examples that have nothing to do with Mansi? So give at least one example when it was the Mansi who sacrificed a person
Почемучка:
--- Quote from: Charles on December 09, 2022, 11:13:43 PM ---
Mansi are like any other people, they are violent, they have bloody rites, they are not special.
--- End quote ---
Кто Вас так обманул? Про буйность манси? В России есть библиотека туристических отчетов советского времени. Каждый отчет с маршрутом по землям, где исконно жили и живут манси - содержит упоминания как манси им помогли, спасли от морозов и не дали заблудиться насмерть.
Все тоже самое - происходит и сейчас, истории эти - в средствах массовой информации публикуются каждый год. Потому что Россия - это снег, мороз и еще пока таежные дебри там, где любят проверять себя на силу воли - туристы.
Who deceived you so? About the violence of the Mansi? Russia has a library of travel reports from the Soviet era. Each report with a route through the lands where the Mansi originally lived and live contains references to how the Mansi helped them, saved them from frost and did not let them get lost to death.
All the same is happening now, these stories are published in the media every year. Because Russia is snow, frost and still taiga wilds where tourists like to test themselves for willpower.
--- Quote from: Charles on December 09, 2022, 11:13:43 PM ---
Anyway, in older times, the Mansi performed human sacrifice like their Khanti and Russian neighbors. The Mansi had shamans and the institution of shaman comes out of human sacrifice. It's just that "older times" is relative. In the 19th and early 20th century, the Mansi were hunting with bows, it was not "older times" for them... At the same time, the Khanti had a sacred island where they sacrificed children and small girls at full moon... And today, in 2022, there are a least a few hundreds of human sacrifices still performed in the most remote parts of the planet. Northern Urals in 1959: not impossible.
--- End quote ---
Не имея опыта изучения документов того времени, которые я упомянула, - достаточно некрасиво делать предположения только на основе данных восемнадцатого века. Ненаучно - накладывать восемнадцатый век на двадцатый и пояснять что в мире не случилось никакой эволюции.
Having no experience of studying the documents of the time that I mentioned, it is rather ugly to make assumptions only on the basis of eighteenth century data. It is unscientific to impose the eighteenth century on the twentieth and explain that no evolution has happened in the world.
Почемучка:
--- Quote from: Charles on December 10, 2022, 12:44:09 AM ---
Can you please read before to post a reply?
ANYAMOV Andrey Alekseevich (Анямов Андрей Алексеевич) born in 1939, a hunter, in 1959 - lived in the village of Suevat-Paul, Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov's nephew. Took part in hunting in mid-February. He is thought to have been a member of the Kurikov and Nevolin search party Feb 23 - Mar 3 (Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov appears on the group's list). Allegedly, he was killed by fellow countrymen shortly after 1959.
ANYAMOV Prokopiy Vasilyevich (Анямов Прокопий Васильевич) - Nikolay Vasilyevich Anyamov’s brother. In the 60s he lived in the village of Suyevat-Paul. In 1961 while hunting he was accidentally killed by Nikolay Stepanovich Kurikov.
SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy Mironovich (Самбиндалов Василий Миронович), the son of M.I. Sambindalov. In a drunken squabble he shot and killed Ilya Dunaev, a Mansi.
BAHTIYAROV Timofey Prokopyevich (Бахтияров Тимофей Прокопьевич) born in 1926; in 1959 – a hunter, brother of Pavel Prokopyevich and Aleksander Prokopyevich Bahtiyarov; lived in the Bahtiyarov's yurts on the N. Toshemka river in the area of the Vapsos river. Krasnobaev went there on Feb 26 (Krasnobaev's testimony). It is not known where he was on Feb 16-25. Most likely he accompanied Pavel Vasilyevich Bahtiyarov. Later he was killed in unclear circumstances.
SHESHKIN Konstantin Efimovich (Шешкин Константин Ефимович) - born in 1932, Tyumen region - in 1959 а Mansi hunter; lived in Pelym yurts, Burmantovskiy rural council. Presumably in mid-February, while hunting, he saw traces of skis on the Lozva (above Auspiya) and Auspiya rivers leading to the Ural ridge while hunting with the Anyamovs from Suevat Paul. (Testimony). In the 60s he lived in the settlement of Lyamya-Paul. Brother of the famous Mansi artist Pyotr Efimovich Sheshkin (1930-1981). He was sentenced to 7 years for murder (in the taiga three people attacked him, so while trying to protect himself he accidentally killed one).
--- End quote ---
Вы опять смешиваете в одно блюда совершенно разные истории? Вы сами вчитайтесь в те факты которые приводите и найдите по крайней мере пять отличий от того, что Вы предлагаете считать доказанным.
Are you again mixing completely different stories into one dish? You yourself get a grasp of the facts that you cite and find at least five differences from what you propose to consider proven.
Зайцев:
--- Quote from: Charles on December 10, 2022, 12:44:09 AM ---
ANYAMOV Andrey Alekseevich (Анямов Андрей Алексеевич) born in 1939, a hunter, in 1959 - lived in the village of Suevat-Paul, Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov's nephew. Took part in hunting in mid-February. He is thought to have been a member of the Kurikov and Nevolin search party Feb 23 - Mar 3 (Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov appears on the group's list). Allegedly, he was killed by fellow countrymen shortly after 1959.
ANYAMOV Prokopiy Vasilyevich (Анямов Прокопий Васильевич) - Nikolay Vasilyevich Anyamov’s brother. In the 60s he lived in the village of Suyevat-Paul. In 1961 while hunting he was accidentally killed by Nikolay Stepanovich Kurikov.
SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy Mironovich (Самбиндалов Василий Миронович), the son of M.I. Sambindalov. In a drunken squabble he shot and killed Ilya Dunaev, a Mansi.
BAHTIYAROV Timofey Prokopyevich (Бахтияров Тимофей Прокопьевич) born in 1926; in 1959 – a hunter, brother of Pavel Prokopyevich and Aleksander Prokopyevich Bahtiyarov; lived in the Bahtiyarov's yurts on the N. Toshemka river in the area of the Vapsos river. Krasnobaev went there on Feb 26 (Krasnobaev's testimony). It is not known where he was on Feb 16-25. Most likely he accompanied Pavel Vasilyevich Bahtiyarov. Later he was killed in unclear circumstances.
SHESHKIN Konstantin Efimovich (Шешкин Константин Ефимович) - born in 1932, Tyumen region - in 1959 а Mansi hunter; lived in Pelym yurts, Burmantovskiy rural council. Presumably in mid-February, while hunting, he saw traces of skis on the Lozva (above Auspiya) and Auspiya rivers leading to the Ural ridge while hunting with the Anyamovs from Suevat Paul. (Testimony). In the 60s he lived in the settlement of Lyamya-Paul. Brother of the famous Mansi artist Pyotr Efimovich Sheshkin (1930-1981). He was sentenced to 7 years for murder (in the taiga three people attacked him, so while trying to protect himself he accidentally killed one).
--- End quote ---
This is a very low percentage of domestic homicides among the local population. Other nationalities of Russia kill each other on domestic grounds much more often. Look at the statistics of murders in Tuva, Buryatia, Khakassia, Altai. Mansi is the calmest peace-loving people.
==
Это очень низкий процент бытовых убийств среди местного населения. Другие народности России убивают друг друга на бытовой почве значительно чаще. Посмотрите статистику убийств по Тыве, Бурятии, Хакасии, Алтаю. Манси - это самый спокойный миролюбивый народ.
Почемучка:
--- Quote from: Charles on December 10, 2022, 12:58:47 AM ---
These people: ANYAMOV Andrey, ANYAMOV Prokopiy, SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy, BAHTIYAROV Timofey, SHESHKIN Konstantin were all Mansi, and they killed or were killed by gun shot. You didn't understand they were Mansi?
--- End quote ---
Как Вы совершенно уникально обнаружили - весь перечень состоит из манси. Уж поверьте. Это именно мансийские представители разных родов. И перечень состоит из бытовых убийств на почве: ревности, пьянства, недовольства дележом родовых угодий попыток других мансийских семей промышлять не на своих угодьях.
Как это вшить в канву причин гибели гр. Дятлова, если помнить что все туристские группы именно в тот период: свердловские Блинова, Карелина, Шумкова, ростовская Фоменко, московская Харченко - благополучно прошли через юрты манси и получили помощь, какая им требовалась.
As you absolutely uniquely discovered, the entire list consists of Mansi. Believe me. These are the Mansi representatives of different clans. And the list consists of domestic murders on the basis of: jealousy, drunkenness, dissatisfaction with the division of ancestral lands, attempts by other Mansi families to hunt on land other than their own.
How to sew this into the canvas of the reasons for the death of gr. Dyatlov, if you remember that all the tourist groups at that time: Sverdlovsk Blinova, Karelina, Shumkova, Rostov Fomenko, Moscow Kharchenko - safely passed through the Mansi yurts and received the help they needed
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