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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: New theory  (Read 5004 times)

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February 11, 2023, 10:09:20 AM
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amashilu

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https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/researchers-suggest-nitric-acid-fog-caused-infamous-dyatlov-pass-incident/
OR
https://curiosmos.com/ufo-mist-new-theory-awakens-mystery-of-the-dyatlov-pass-incident/

This short article explains the theory better than I was able to. 10 to 15 tons of nitric acid dumped on the hikers

" ... Researcher Vadim Skibinsky believes that the fireballs were the exhaust gases from a launched rocket. Not only did Russia conduct rocket launch tests in February 1959, the snow around the camp was reportedly melting, but not at other nearby locations, leading to a man-made conclusion instead of a weather event ...

"The research team believes the launch — and subsequent failure — of an R-12 liquid medium-range single-stage ballistic missile caused a nitric acid mist to reach the tent. Given that the tests took place within range of the mountains, and that nitric acid is a colorless, highly corrosive mineral acid used as an oxidizer in liquid-propelled rockets ..."
« Last Edit: December 30, 2023, 05:04:23 AM by amashilu »
 

February 11, 2023, 03:33:57 PM
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GlennM


You would expect the autopsy would reveal corrosion of the lungs and upper respiratory system.  There was mention of a yellow cast of the skin of the corpse. Nitric acid burns will do this. If the entire body was yellowish, I would be surprised, they did not sleep in the raw, I am sure.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 11, 2023, 07:09:20 PM
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amashilu

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You would expect the autopsy would reveal corrosion of the lungs and upper respiratory system.  There was mention of a yellow cast of the skin of the corpse. Nitric acid burns will do this. If the entire body was yellowish, I would be surprised, they did not sleep in the raw, I am sure.

I had the same thought about damage to the lungs, which was not mentioned in any autopsy.

I do remember reading that the strange skin color was mostly on face and hands.
 
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February 12, 2023, 07:46:42 AM
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eurocentric


Here's some photo's of the burns resulting from nitric acid, it causes a xanthoproteic reaction, as a result of proteins in the skin, protein presence or absence apparently being one of the main chemical uses of nitric acid in industry. Skin will go yellow and nails bright yellow.

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1748681509006226-gr2.jpg

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1748681509006226-gr3.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthoproteic_reaction

These examples will be the result of a more direct contact, with accidents in factories and school science lessons cited, but some areas like this should have been visible from Day 1 with the hikers, and the reaction would continue after death.

There are photo's of faces affected by this, usually the result of a deliberate acid attack, but I'm avoiding linking to those. Ghey do not resemble the hikers, certainly not Igor and Rustem.

A reaction involving the lining of the lungs from inhalation would probably cause fluid to collect inside the lungs and be found at autopsy.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 12, 2023, 08:26:45 AM
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amashilu

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Several of the hikers had burns, which could be from nitric acid, if we follow this theory. Nurse Solter said that Zina had burns on her head or hair, as I recall, and your first link shows a badly burnt leg that reminds me of Krivonischenko's. Also, the presenter of this theory mentioned the burning of the tops of several trees in the area in a somewhat random pattern which could make sense if the culprit were a mist.

2 questions come to mind: What do you think the hikers' bodies would look like if this were a mist (not a liquid)? So, let's say, if they "breathed into their scarves" to protect their airways, as we always did when it was -20 degrees where I grew up, could this have kept the acid out of their lungs somewhat? (I know they didn't have scarves, it's just a phrase)

And: (again, just following this theory through, for speculative purposes) What would be a second incident in which the Ravine4 were basically exploded? That is, after they ran from the mist, breathing into their scarves, then what happened?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 01:14:21 PM by amashilu »
 

February 12, 2023, 09:09:55 AM
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eurocentric


Collapse into the ravine, less so falling into it where hands would attempt to break their fall and produce wrist/collar bone injury, could explain the flail chest. Perhaps significantly Semyon was found laid on his flailed right side, and quite possibly Lyuda was the same before her body effected a dam against the increasing flow of meltwater and was washed over the rock, her post-rigor mortis joints assuming a new kneeling position.

Resuscitation could also explain some rib fractures too. I read a study which showed that in 71% of cadavers presenting at autopsy after CPR there were multiple rib fractures and the ones affected were broadly the same as in the DPI, although the DPI fractures should be slightly to the left of the sternumif from resus, not over to the right as with Lyuda and Semyon.

Some of the injuries, the burns to Krivo's leg particularly, and Doro's scalp could apply to nitric acid exposure, but I don't recall the pathologist noting any yellowness of skin, and he was describing the colour of everything, skin, eyes, meninges, urine, ear auricles. From memory I recall that two hikers were described as having a bluey tinge to their skin, such as bluey-red or bluey-pink, which made me wonder if they had developed cyanosis from low blood oxygen (keying in with Solter's claims of suffocation), so they certainly weren't all yellow.

Igor Dyatlov, on the slab, looked like you could snap your fingers and he would wake up and tell you what happened, he didn't look burnt, or even frostbitten, although the body of his report claimed he had frostbite to his "extremities", so if chemical burns were sustained they were specific to some of the hikers, not all of them. To run with that maybe they were in different places when it happened, such as 4 of the at the forest collecting wood and they got the worst of it and tried to shelter inside the ravine.

I'd suspect that if evergreen trees had been exposed to an acid mist, then like acid rain more than just the growing point would be affected. Evergreens being wider on the lower branches, the opposite habit of the crown of a deciduous, so right down the evergreen tree the foliage would be burnt, or browned.

If the hikers were affected by a mist then unless some of them were in a different place when this happened, such as collecting wood, they should all be affected, and have a yellow tint to their skin, the mucous membranes of their eyes would be affected, and the lungs and the inside of the nose, and the mouth when mouth breathing, and the throat. But the pathologist didn't seem to make any of these observations.

If faced with an acid mist wouldn't the hikers be more inclined to cover up rather than remove clothing and footwear, and perhaps attempt to shorud themselves with their blankets, which would then become useful for survival elsewhere.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
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February 12, 2023, 11:59:36 AM
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RMK


I just wanted to point out, there's at least one old thread on these forums about nitric acid.  It might be worthwhile reading for those interested in the topic.
 

February 12, 2023, 12:21:46 PM
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amashilu

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I just wanted to point out, there's at least one old thread on these forums about nitric acid.  It might be worthwhile reading for those interested in the topic.

Yes, thank you! We should definitely re-read that thread. This time, we are starting from the launching pad of the 2023 Conference and the presenter's proposal of an R-12 liquid medium-range single-stage ballistic missile having gone off-target.
 

February 12, 2023, 05:28:35 PM
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GlennM


Its just that going 900 miles off course is a bit of a stretch, yes?
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 
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February 13, 2023, 07:21:22 AM
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amashilu

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I have no idea.

As far as I can tell, the conference presenters do not ask this question ---  but surely they would not have presented this theory to the whole world without first ascertaining how far such a failed rocket can go? They have been researching for 60 years and it must have been one of the first questions they researched.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 07:42:52 AM by amashilu »
 

February 13, 2023, 08:15:46 AM
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GlennM


A rather fundamental guidance error, yes?  If HNo3, we would expect an immediate effect on people,the tent and acid rain effects on forest. Later,,there would likely be fish kill and acidification on lakes. In short,,there would be a significant trail of proverbial bread crumbs to follow.  The Mansi lore would be instructive.  Reports of discomfort on search party would be expected. I find them refusal of the rescue dogs to leave the copter interesting. Their noses being more sensitive.

I would expect the government to remediate the problem. No evidence of that happening that I know of. All in all, I still like the slab slide idea better.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 13, 2023, 10:16:27 AM
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amashilu

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Isn't it interesting how everyone takes for granted that there were fireballs in the sky pretty much all the time ...


from interview with Polina Petrovna Solomonovich

NAVIG: There were all kinds of light balls flying, can you say anything about that?
FY: What are you saying?

NAVIG: Some glowing objects flew across the sky.

FY: I don't think so, it's not just me, you can ask anybody that lived Ivdel at that time. We had fireballs over Ivdel very often.

NAVIG: Well, it's because there were some rockets, right?

FY: Yes, we thought it was a launch. You see, what's interesting is that a ball of fire will fly by, in 2-3 days will be an announcement that in the Soviet Union a spaceship has been launched there or some kind of artificial satellite. So it's hard to say something, because we didn't really know anything.
 

February 13, 2023, 11:17:45 AM
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GlennM


The R-16 was a true first-generation intercontinental missile and a vast improvement over the largely experimental 'zeroth' generation R-7 Semyorka. The missile used a hypergolic bipropellant combination of unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine (UDMH) fuel in combination with red fuming nitric acid (RFNA) oxidiser. The Soviets initially deployed it at soft sites which were not shielded from nuclear attack. On normal duty the missiles were stored in hangars, and it took one to three hours to roll them out, fuel them, and reach launch readiness. The missiles could remain fueled for only a few days due to the corrosive nature of the nitric acid. After this, the fuel would have to be removed and the missile sent back to the factory for rebuilding. Even when fueled and in an alert posture, the Soviet missiles still needed to wait up to twenty minutes to spin up the gyroscopes in their guidance systems before launch was possible. Despite these shortcomings, the R-16 was unquestionably the first truly successful intercontinental ballistic missile developed by the Soviet Union. After the delays associated with the deaths of many people working on the project, the first flight of the missile took place on 2 February 1961. Initial operational capability was achieved on 1 November 1961

BTW, it was very, very big, as in you couldn't miss it in air or as debris

We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 13, 2023, 11:34:02 AM
Reply #13
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Ziljoe


A rather fundamental guidance error, yes?  If HNo3, we would expect an immediate effect on people,the tent and acid rain effects on forest. Later,,there would likely be fish kill and acidification on lakes. In short,,there would be a significant trail of proverbial bread crumbs to follow.  The Mansi lore would be instructive.  Reports of discomfort on search party would be expected. I find them refusal of the rescue dogs to leave the copter interesting. Their noses being more sensitive.

I would expect the government to remediate the problem. No evidence of that happening that I know of. All in all, I still like the slab slide idea better.

A good point and reasonable observation.
 

February 13, 2023, 12:14:09 PM
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eurocentric


To try to rescue the logic of the theory I'd have the hikers ingesting nitric acid from a watercourse. The rocket launches would have happened prior to their deaths and the chemical has washed into streams, especially if it is said to melt snow, this also explaining the illness among Mansi, the death of their deer, and why the authorities told them not to use the streams for 3 or 4 years after the DPI.

The plume of this stuff does not need to contaminate the entire area, only where the hikers were and what streams they used. The rescue party's base camp could have been in an unaffected area.

This modification would then explain the lack of yellow skin or nails. Yuri K's leg, which got progressively worse from the knee down and vterminated with a blackened toe, is more likely explained by burns sustained near a fire. If he had chemical burns to his leg he might not have been so keen in placing it near a heat source.

Most of the hikers had red mucosal masses in their stomachs at autopsy, which could be caused by other factors but may also suggest irritation of the lining of the stomach. Their lungs gave out a foamy red liquid when pressed.

They would want to drink fresh water to put out this fire so end up in or near the ravine.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002478.htm

Symptoms from swallowing nitric acid may include: (my emphasis in red)

    Abdominal pain - severe
    Burns to skin or mouth - Lyuda
    Drooling - fluid around mouths
    Fever - removal of clothing
    Mouth pain - severe
    Rapid drop in blood pressure (shock)
    Throat swelling, which leads to breathing difficulty
    Throat pain - severe
    Vomiting, bloody - stomach contents


It seems that nitric acid, when ingested, does not become systemic, it turns into ions, so will not wreck the kidneys.

My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 13, 2023, 12:18:36 PM
Reply #15
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GlennM


Pity LYUDMILA  shock1
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 13, 2023, 12:21:53 PM
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eurocentric


You no doubt believe she had a slab slip of her tongue, and so lost it.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
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