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Dyatlov Pass Forum

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11
KGB / Radiation / Military involvement / Re: Personally Cruel
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on June 30, 2022, 11:56:10 AM »

................................................
Did these attackers know their victims? If not, why were the killings so cruel? What was the point?     


Did these attackers know their victims ?

Not so much. The attackers and the hickers had seen each other (i.e. had come into physical contact) only in Vizhay, for a few hours on 25 January (arrival:14.00)  and 26 January (departure:13.10).

To go into detail it is also possible that the hickers met (in the so called hotel) only one person: the sponsor (commander, client...) of the extermination who paid contract killers and these attacked on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl at about 8 p.m. on 1 February 1959 (unless it was the morning of 2 February  ??).



Why were the killings so cruel ?

I am preparing posts to introduce the idea that in Vizhay, on 25 January, the hickers met (clashed with) a kind of small mafia.
I intend to intervene in more detail in :
Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Possible sexual assault?
Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death

In the meantime (perhaps for a long time) I leave you some preliminary notes.


°°°°°°
Why were the killings so cruel?  ---> Because in human societies a group that wants to conquer or keep the power had, and still has, often recourse to acts of a terrifying violence to impose itself.

Thus in history the tortures of the cruxifiction and the wheel were organised by the official powers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel


°°°°°°
Kolgomorova : We arrived in Vizhay. First we stopped at the same club where we were 2 years ago. Then we were taken to the hotel".

The history of the USSR shows that in 1957-58, in the Ivdellag and Vizhay region, all the conditions for the establishment of a small local mafia were present.

In particular, the dismantling of Gulag - poorly organised, but ordered by Krushchev - had freed criminals and gangsters (and kept morally blameless citizens in prison or under house arrest).[/b]

Like the "big" mafia in Sicily or Chicago, the small Vizhay mafia was a clandestine and fearsome association of unscrupulous individuals.
(And some of them, who had long remained powerful and cruel guardians of the Gulag camps, had become perverted).
Its members, united by common concerns and interests, supported each other by all sorts of means.

In the case of the small Vizhay mafia the common points could be: hatred of communism, of the Russian nation, of the central government of the Kremlin.........

By the period photos we have:
https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay
we will probably not learn much, as those who had a responsibility in the DPI certainly avoided being photographed.


°°°°°°
The members of the Dyatlov group were not interested in politics and were therefore totally unaware of the situation in Vizhay.

Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.

However, they could be seen as propagandists controlled by the Kremlin, via the UPI, and therefore as enemies of those who organised the attack on the Kholat Syakhl slope.

The mafias, political entities competing with the state for the monopoly of the legitimate exercise of violence, demonstrate their power through intimidation and, if necessary, terrorism.

The mafias use systemic violence to achieve social cohesion. Systemic violence, employed by a small number of leading criminals, provides panopticon control of populations.

Indeed, thanks to the violence that breaks down solidarity and isolates individuals who have become their own censors, the mafia is at the centre of society.

When a citizen does not respect the rules of the mafia, he must be murdered in order to make mafia justice more powerful than the laws of the legal state.




What was the point ?

The aim of the attackers was to show to everyone the extent of their power and the terrible fate that was promised to those who taunted them (even unconsciously) or who did not respect their laws.

But the attackers were fooled by the Kremlin, which succeeded in imposing the idea that it was not a homicide.

Whether it was in 1959 or in 2020, the aim of the Soviet or Russian authorities, was and still is, to hide the incompetence of various administrative structures (PCSU, Sport Club, Route Commission...) and the inefficiency of the KGB, which had a share of responsibility in sending in fact 9 exemplary citizens to their deaths.

However, the KGB reacted quickly by opening an investigation on 6 February 1959. I do not know what were the consequences of this late awareness. disovow232 (KGB/Radiation/Military involvement --> Something from a KGB officer)  alludes to it but is not very clear....

Afterwards, the usual propaganda technique used to cover up this affair, which is admittedly of little importance, consists of launching, through the intermediary of people who are often sincere, a certain number of more or less plausible lures: Teleportation, UFO, Infrasound, Yeti...etc.


12
KGB / Radiation / Military involvement / Re: Personally Cruel
« Last post by amashilu on June 29, 2022, 01:38:24 PM »
Dyatlov had deep abrasions on his ankles. I can't think of anything that would cause that, other than ropes against which he chafed ... can you?

... and yes, there is speculation that the eyes and mouth tissue simply decomposed in the stream.

But oh well, having your chest exploded or your legs purposely burned or your skull caved in qualify as personal cruelty (again, this is playing devil's advocate for the murder theory). Why such cruelty?


13
KGB / Radiation / Military involvement / Re: Personally Cruel
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 29, 2022, 12:18:23 PM »
Hi amashilu,

An interesting point. There is no hard evidence for them being tied up for certain. Also no evidence of the eyes being removed whilst alive or dead. The hikers with missing eyes were found in may with most of their upper half in running water. They were decomposing quite quickly. I believe this is the reason that coffins or body casks were requested by the pilot of the helicopter.

But the motive for murder is a factor.
14
KGB / Radiation / Military involvement / Personally Cruel
« Last post by amashilu on June 29, 2022, 10:32:29 AM »
For the sake of argument, let's just assume for a minute that one of the murder theories such as those advanced by Per Inge Oestmoen or Jean Daniel Reuss, is true.

When investigators look into a murder that was committed with particular personal cruelty, they generally assume that the murderer knew the victim, and the cruelty was a sign of an emotional or revengeful act. The DPI killings (assumption for this post) were terribly cruel and even more cruel if you believe that Krivonischenko was tied up in a tree and tortured, or that the eyes were removed while the victims were living.

Did these attackers know their victims? If not, why were the killings so cruel? Why not just bash them in the head and be done with it? What was the point?

15
Video / Photography / Re: The Cedar Then/Now
« Last post by Charles on June 29, 2022, 06:50:36 AM »


On the contrary, it was necessary to do this extra work to not just use immediately available axes because:

1) - The injuries described (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) are not compatible with ordinary axe use because the iron of an axe is much harder and angular than a wooden blunt object whose contacting part has a rounded shape close to the sphere.

As you can see by yourself on the photo, the butt of this axe from Vizhay area is not "angular" at all and has a "round shape close to the sphere". It is in front of your eyes on the photo. We have to relate the eyes with the words.
16
Video / Photography / Re: The Cedar Then/Now
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on June 29, 2022, 06:17:23 AM »

                     Reply #27
............................
The poll/butt of this axe is already a "blunt object", no need to do any extra work:
..................................
Why go to complicated solutions when easy ones are available ?
...................................


On the contrary, it was necessary to do this extra work to not just use immediately available axes because:

1) - The injuries described (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) are not compatible with ordinary axe use because the iron of an axe is much harder and angular than a wooden blunt object whose contacting part has a rounded shape close to the sphere.

2) - Also, as I introduced in "wolverine (topic=390), Reply #59
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=390.msg17896#msg17896
the use of blunt objects made of birch wood wrapped in fabric padding is conceivable in a natural way ( especially if one thinks about the production of wolverine skin or fur).

3) - I also exclude the use of an axe handle alone, i.e. without the steel cutting part, because the weight of a handle alone is less than 1 kilogram and therefore not sufficient.
(In axes the steel part is generally heavier than the handle alone).

4) - One must therefore resign oneself to resorting to a complicated solution when no simpler one is available.


17
Wolverine / Re: Wolverine
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 28, 2022, 07:11:12 PM »
Hi Jean Daniel Reid's

Thank you. I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.

Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have. I do favour Igor b's wolverine because it is the most logical but  I do not rule out Teddy's or the involvement of outsiders.

Igor b goes into detailed accounts of the physical injuries and position of the bodies , links the findings of the deaths with clinical research , testimonies from people that have encountered  wolverines ( a Wolverine licking their face when they were asleep in a tent). He also supports this with the documents and statements , for example, markings on some of the clothes returned that would not wash off, the reaction of the search dogs at the pass from the helicopter.

Teddy's theory  is also of interest but for a different reason. Teddy looks at it from the documents and written statements and links events with other activities at the time which can not be ruled out and gives a lot to ponder.  It involves staging and a cover up and explains some of the inconsistency from written reports etc.

I also do not rule out , outsiders forcing them out of the tent. There are many versions of who , why and with what tools did they kill.. I often wonder about that lone Mansi hunter that was nearby the day before.

There's nothing to stop us from picking bits from different hypothesis and joining them together to come up with a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the hikers.

I now favour the Wolverine after dismissing the idea for several years . I found Igor's explanation annoyingly solid and complete.

However, I continue to read everyone's hypothesis as new evidence and observations come to light.

Igor's b theory would also work if you took away the Wolverine , changed it to someone throwing in some gas at the tent and then leaving and having no more input. It is that simple.
 
18
Wolverine / Re: Wolverine
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on June 28, 2022, 03:38:23 PM »


                     Reply #55
This is from Igor b's links that he posted. Translated to English ,
..............................................
Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils.
...................................................
Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
...........................................
It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
...............................................


@ Ziljoe : I warmly thank you for your work in translating and summarising Igor B.'s arguments in support of the wolverine theory.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

For my poor mental capacity, 112 web pages and 2232 posts in Russian is already a long time to study, but more:
A number of arguments are in image format and therefore cannot be copied and pasted into an automatic translator.

A number of posts give links to other websites in Russian.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The death of the hickers does not fall within the scope of the cases studied by Rybalkin R.V. :

According to my theories TOK** (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - others),
the death of the 4 considered hikers is not mainly caused by the cold, but by the tremendous blunt object blows which sends them in a deep coma. In this state of deep coma, i.e. near death, the phenomenon of the dilated pupils does not occur because all the cerebral functioning is disturbed (and perhaps may be compared to that of a dead drunk person).

If they had been immediately treated in a hospital, these 4 hickers might have survived without disability, but this is not even sure.

Afterwards of course the bodies freeze (then thaw) but the cold action plays a secondary role in giving real symptoms of apparent cold death.

The violence of the tremendous blunt object blows is not assessable at autopsy because the attackers' blunt objects were wrapped in rag padding carefully sewn onto the birch wood. In other words, brain damage can be significant without any skull fractures.

The habit of rag-wrapped blunt objects originated with some trappers who wanted to sell rare and valuable skins (such as those of wolverines) without the skins being damaged by a bullet hole (and thus losing some of their high value).

The rag stuffing provided by the attackers was not intended to deceive the autopsy. It was to provide a deadly but silent weapon; essential to the success of the attackers' gun-free tactics.


                     Reply #57
..................
The logic is they could not go back to the tent in fear of making their symptoms worse.
.........................
Change the scenario to the confines of a tent, miles from safety and unsure if this chemical will do long-term harm.
.........................

Indeed, the exit from the tent can perfectly well be explained by the entry of a curious wolverine.

This is a solution which is in accordance with what I call the Anatoliy Stepochkin axiom :

They launched a kind of dope inside (they = wolverine)

There is a very large number of chemical devices that can make the atmosphere inside a small tent almost instantly unbreathable.

When I was young, and as stupid and stubborn in error as I am now, I made suffocating jars of SO² according to the reaction :

2 ClO³K + 3 S ---> 3 SO² + 2 ClK

but in the open air and always on the right side of the wind !

At that time one could buy for cheap kilograms of potassium chlorate and sulphur in flower (powdered sulphur) in the big drugstores.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chlorate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Strange behaviour of this wolverine who usually finds her meat reserves hidden in the snow for several weeks and who does not come back to the tent after a few days to finish her meal when the smell of her toxic spray has been attenuated (since it is imperceptible to humans at the end of February)..

For me the decisive point is that Igor B's wolverine theory can only explain one part of the DPI: the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar.

For the rest, i.e. the death of the nine, no one should evade Ockham's razor which favours theories that include the action of human attackers determined to leave no survivors.

In a nutshell and in the spirit of Vladimir Askinadzi (https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=4&rbid=18461), I could assertively say;

- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force, no falls on rocks, no snow collapses can explain the death of these nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions, even while vomiting and weakened by the terrifying spray of a volverine as they had been able to stand and walk several metres on a slippery slope.

Well, again, all these very simply explainable injuries....

Ask me. I do not know everything. But little by little, thanks to the many debates that I can read on this website and others, the "HOW", "WHO" and "WHY" questions are becoming clearer and the vice is tightening around the image of the attackers.

Just look and think calmly about these facts.

https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461

There are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear.
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and who keep their eyes wide shut.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
To explain the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar, the idea of the wolverine's chemical weapon intervention can be harmoniously incorporated into my TOK** theories according to two fairly similar scenarios (your choice):

Scenario N° 1
A wolverine tamed in the manner of a performing dog has been trained to enter shelters that its(her ?) master designates.
The master (attacker) pointing to the tent: Go on, dear, there's plenty to eat there.

In case of difficulty or defensive reaction in the shelter, the wolverine sprays spontaneously and returns unharmed to its master (who can reward it(her) with a good piece of pork).

The wolverine can be transported from North-2 to the tent, either on human back or using a reindeer, in a comfortable basket.

Moreover, the idea of using trained animals is not original. Here is a military example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog


Scenario N° 2
Siberian trappers collect glandular fluid from several wolverines (possibly for several years) and then sell it to the attackers
Then it is easy with a large syringe and a hose to build a device to silently and quietly spray a large amount of toxic liquid inside the 5 m³ tent.
The result is not debatable: the surprised hikers immediately go out in an irrational way, suffocating and vomiting.

Then it is likely that the hikers themselves decide to go down to the cedar tree to shelter from the wind and light a fire, which they apparently did


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But after .... the intervention of human attackers absolutely determined to take the lives of the 9 hikers constitutes the core of my TOK** theories.

All these variants have in common that there was no staging, or even attempted staging, on the Kholat Syakhl slope in early February 1959.
19
Murdered / Re: Murder of Serguey Kolevatov and collateral damages
« Last post by Charles on June 28, 2022, 06:27:40 AM »
Timeline

1938, Tavda - Ivan Prodanov is appointed head of the wood production division of the VostUralLag of the NKVD in Tavda.

1938, Tavda - Serguey Kolevatov moved to Gulag as a senior accountant of one of the wood factories in Tavda.

1944, Jan. Tavda - The director of the Verkhniaia Tavda wood factory is expelled from his position "for criminal, provocative attitude towards the workers", expelled from the CPSU and dragged before the courts. A number of local officials are dismissed at the same time.

1944, Tavda - Serguey Kolevatov is killed in Tavda work camp complex. Alexander Kolevatov, 10 years old at the time, witnessed the man who took his father away.

1952, Ivdel - Ivan Prodanov becomes 1st Secretary of the City Committee of the CPSU of Ivdel.

1959, Jan. 24 Serov - While waiting for the train to Ivdel, Yuri Krivonishenko is causing trouble at railway station and is taken to the police station.

1959, Jan. 24 Serov - Alexander Kolevatov goes to police station to rescue Krivonishenko and there he meets again the murderer of his father and he recognizes him.

1959, Jan. 27 District 41 - Venediktov and Velikyavichus receive the order from Georgy Ryazhnev to delay the departure of the hikers. Yudin is supposed to leave the group at District 41 because of his leg but he finally makes a different decision.

1959, Jan. 28 District 41 - Yudin leaves the group at Northern 2.

1959, Feb. 2 Kholyat Syakhl - Alexander Kolevatov and the 8 hikers are murdered.

1959, Feb.-Mar. District 41 - Venediktov and Velikyavichus flee from District 41.

1959, Feb.-Mar. Kholyat Syakhl - Cheglakov and Vlasov are on the crime scene to do cleansing if needed and they steal Alexander Kolevatov's diary.

1959, Mar. 13 Kholyat Syakhl - Ivan Prodanov himself comes at the crime scene.

1959, Mar. Ivdel - Ivan Prodanov is elected deputy at Ivdel City Council.

1959, Apr. 15 Sverdlovsk - Yudin gives a testimony where all issues related to delay are omitted.

1961, Kholyat Syakhl surroundings - The son of Stepan Kurikov kills Procopiy Anyamov by gun shot.

1964, Ivdel - Ivan Prodanov dies in Ivdel at the age of 58.


20
General Discussion / Radiosonde theory
« Last post by amashilu on June 27, 2022, 04:35:05 PM »
Under the THEORIES topic is one entitled Radiosondes:

"Vladimir Nagaev, a veteran of the KGB and the Federal Security Service of Russia, head of the faculty of the Military Medical Institute and candidate of Medical Sciences published a trilogy in 2018, that reveals the mechanism of death of the Dyatlov group - "The half-life of the Khibina group" (vol.1 vol.2 vol.3)."

I don't see much discussion about this theory, but it is an intriguing one. If "true," it sure would explain a lot. Is this theory still valid or has it been debunked?

Does anyone know anything about Vladimir Nagaev? In his role as faculty of the Military Medical Institute, would he have had access to information we don't? What is his reputation?

The 3 volumes are in Russian. Have they been translated into English anywhere?

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