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31

General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Arjan on April 15, 2024, 11:41:34 AM »

Dear Ziljoe,

The photo of the posture of Hypothermia - from the website Australiawide - is very probably staged: a living person has person has taken this posture.
I have purposely choosen a staged photo in order to avoid unnecessary distress of group members.

An additional indication that Yuri Dor and Rustem had been moved - after they had lost consciousness for the last time - is provided in the post mortem reports:
- Yuri Dor (found face down): 'Crimson purple post-mortem spots are located on the back of the neck, torso and extremities'
- Rustem (found face down): 'Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the rear surface of the neck, torso and limbs'.

Personally I take into account that Rustem had been turned face down after the process of post mortem lividity had stopped and rigor mortem had started.

Personally I take into account that Igor - after loosing consciousness for the last time - had been carried by two person;
- one person (with both handpalms facing to the front) holding him under his armpits
- the second person holding him at his knees.

You are right victims of hypothermia don't end up in one position:
- some hide curled behind cupboard at relative mild cold conditions
- others are found in a posture like Zinaida.

On the other hand, not many victims had been found neatly next to each other like Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri.

It is hard to estimate the body postures of the four found in the ravine, because personally I take into account that they had already been partly?/fully? defrosted  in the ravine at the beginning of May. No information of post mortem lividity is mentioned on the post mortem reports, because it had already dissolved?

THis information is crucial for solving the case, because:
- if group members had left together from the tent area, non of the group members had been able to perform this kind of displacement of other group members
- if two (or more) group members had been displaced the bodies, these two (or more) group members had been far better protected against hypothermia than the others. In the area of the tent, cedar, ravine there had been only one place that had provided sufficient protection. This place is the tent. Personally I take into account that Zinaida and Rustem had survived this night - fatal for the others - in the tent. Other hint: the two flashlights had served a purpose as beacon and means of communication.

32

General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by GlennM on April 14, 2024, 09:06:49 PM »

We are reminded of two thiings. First, the actual location of the tent is a mattter of dispute. Secondly, it did happen . An avalanche did not happen. A slab slip did. The only debate is whether the hikers precipitated the event by prepping their tent site. This is significannt because the surviving relatives do not wish to accept that any ineptitude on the part of the expedition caused their demise. It is also clear that even in the aftermath, in then true Soviet fashion, several people lost their positions as scapegoats. Monetary restitution did not come, and in all probability, never will. The hikers were all given a decent burial.

33

General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by WinterLeia on April 14, 2024, 04:06:59 PM »

The slope, according to G & P, is 28 degrees. That is still not steep enough. Just because it can happen on a 28 degree slope, doesn’t debunk the fact that it’s very rare for avalanches to occur on slopes with a less than a 30 degree angle. Plus, I do not agree with their calculation. All the pictures that they show as proof that avalanches and slab slides do happen are on much steeper slopes. Don’t believe me? Let’s go straight to the horse’s mouth.
From the follow up report, in reference to the avalanche and the snow slab:

…”the slab was softer, the slope was steeper, it was not undercut from below and the trigger was probably different, too.”

That means the slope where the tent was set up was less than 28 degrees. And considering Dr. Borzenkov’s much more professional analysis, in which he uses tools and actually measures the slope where the tent was set up instead of presenting some blurry photos of other places where avalanches do occur that have steeper slopes, I find him far more credible and will go with his calculations of the slope being no more than 20 degrees.

In actual fact, though, there is an easy way to solve this. G & P just needs to go out and find a place where an an avalanche occurs and is not steeper than the slope upon which the tent was set up. They don’t do this because there probably is no such place. Their follow-up report can be summed up in two words: confirmation bias.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by GlennM on April 14, 2024, 02:12:45 PM »

If the hikers assisted each other pre mortem, that is of no consequence. If the arguement is that they were manipulated by a third party, it is unfounded. What is important, rather what is essential is why they left the tent. They did so for self preservation. They did everything in controlled, measured steps according to their training. Nature is indifferent to this.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 14, 2024, 01:50:42 PM »

What your photo show is staged.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 14, 2024, 01:37:46 PM »

Hypothermia is complicated. I agree that the to Yuri's may have been moved, buts that's possibley the rest of the group.

Dyatlov is in a classics hypothermia pose. Hypothermia victims don't end up in one position. I'm hesitant to supply pictures as the are destressing.

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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Arjan on April 14, 2024, 01:26:51 PM »

As far as I am aware, victims of death by hypothermia are - in general - found in a more crouched posture, similar like the 'man in snow suffering from hypothermia'.



An additional fact of physics is: gravity.

Gravity ought to cause that the raised arm of Yuri Kri and the body of Igor Dyatlov should have fallen flat on the ground, unless rigor mortis had already started to develop in the joints of their body.

Hardly anyone dies with a raised arm like Yuri Kri, unless he had been lifted under his armpits, while rigor mortis had already developed in the joints of this arm.
 
And Yuri Dor lying neatly face down next to Yuri Kri, has all the characteristics of being places next to each other by others:
- by Zinaida and Rustem in case no outsiders had intervened (see my series of the last two days of the Dyatlov group) or
- by outsiders within a tight time frame.

38

General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Ziljoe on April 14, 2024, 12:28:01 PM »

Arjan,Why do position of the bodies not resemble death by hypothermia?

39

General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by Arjan on April 14, 2024, 12:14:53 PM »

In case the complete Dyatlov group might have left the tent area on the slope - after a snow slab might had crushed the tent - at the beginning of a cold night, there is one certainty thas is caused by thermodynamica of the human body.

The group members might have been able to keep their body core temperature at 37 degrees celcius during 2 hours by moving and performing work like making the den and gathering firewood.

After two hour, the body core temperature might had started to drop 0.5 degrees Celcius every 30 minutes.

Around 4 hours after leaving the tent area, their body core temperature might had dropped to 33 degrees celcius and they might had been in profound ful hypothermia. The full group might had fallen in apathy.

Around 6 hours after leaving the tent area, all group members might had lost consciousness for the last time in their life.

Around 8 - 12 hours after leaving the tent area, the heart of every group member had stopped beating.

Around 18 hours after leaving the tent area, the process of rigor mortis had started to develop in the bodies.
Around 36 - 48 hours after leaving the tent area, the bodies had been solidified in ice.

There is one certainty: in case the group members might had left the tent area at the same time, outsiders had placed the group members in the postures as they had been found by both search parties. These outsiders had done this within a very tight time frame, because the raised arm of Yuri Kri indicates rigor mortis in the joints.

Only Zinaida had been found in a posture that resembles death by hypothermia, the other group members had been found in a postures that do not fit death by hypothermia.

40

General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY

« Last post by GlennM on April 14, 2024, 07:14:07 AM »

There were two locations presumed to be where the tent was on 1079. The second location identified in 2019 and corroborated by photo evidence, puts the tent on a steeper slope on which the hikers excavated a ledge for leveling their tent. It is entirely likely that a slab slip crushed the tent there. It is entirely likely the hikers left the tent assuming that if they dug out their tent immediately, continued snow movement would again cover the tent as well as themselves. They did the right thing to get away from the tent in those circumstances. Ironically, less experienced hikers would have probably stayed and dug back into the tent and survived the crisis.