October 15, 2021, 02:25:03 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: DPI noob  (Read 5979 times)

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February 01, 2021, 05:53:04 PM
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ash73


Hi, newbie here. My interest was piqued by a recent video made by a couple of Russian scientists on YT trying to prove an avalanche was what done it, their demonstration seemed laughable so I came here looking for facts.

I've browsed the forum for a couple of days and I have to say it's interesting and informative, lots of detail and great discussion.

My hypothesis (can't call it a theory without evidence) is the hikers fell out with the wrong person in Vizhay, perhaps a mixture of arrogant students lording it about and what they represented politically to a grim community was enough of a catalyst to seal their fate. Look at the photos of the place, it literally is hell, and they didn't exactly keep a low profile.

I gather there was tension between old regime and new, and they were a shining symbol of something which could cause significant resentment. If one of them (Dubinina?) spoke out of turn it might have resulted in a beating, but flashing a soviet ID card around and expecting to be waited on when people are struggling to survive is a dangerous game.

Put yourself in the position of someone living in that town, your life a constant struggle to make ends meet, imagine how you'd react seeing a group of well educated youngsters acting like care-free adventurers; and what the regime they represented would mean for your future.

They may have been followed, the famous blurred photo 17 might even be a picture of one of their assailants getting too close, every other photo on that film is pin sharp whereas that one perhaps was taken in haste. More likely the assailants knew their route and planned an ambush, perhaps the den was actually their base and they lay in wait. They may have cut down the saplings to use them for their own base, or as brushes to cover their tracks.

The tent was probably approached after dark and they were beaten through the canvas with sticks while making a huge commotion, and it may have been slashed with knives, forcing them to flee in whatever state of dress they were in. Some were overpowered on the way down the hill, those that made it to the tree line were left to die in the freezing cold. When the Yuris made a fire they were attacked again and tortured, the rest were beaten in brutal fashion and dumped in the stream.

Sorry this probably doesn't offer anything new. I welcome evidence to show it's wrong, as per the scientific method, but I think murder by persons unknown is the only way to explain their injuries, which are trustworthy facts. I doubt they were fighting each other, and a government cover-up seems far fetched. It's an interesting puzzle, some of the "facts" are dubious so you have to be selective, without cherry-picking.

I gather the moderator has just released a book, good timing! After just a few days thinking I can buy a copy and find out what really happened and save myself a bunch of time! :)

Anyhow, greetings!
 

February 08, 2021, 10:45:27 AM
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ash73


This topic is a proper rabbit hole! The more you research the more intriguing it gets.

I've been reading Donnie Eichar's book Dead Mountain the last couple of days. I still think murder is plausible... but they'd have to be waiting in just the right place, find the tent in pitch black, and it's a big risk to attack nine able-bodied people equipped with knives and ice axes; even if you catch them by surprise.

So it got me thinking what would be the most probable natural phenomenon that could explain the DPI. All we're really looking for is a credible reason why they left the tent in such a hurry. I think most other things can be explained as a consequence.

Eichar's infrasound theory is interesting, presumably they could test it where the tent was located, but it seems unlikely to me it would panic them sufficiently. I tried an online test and it had no effect whatsoever, but it could be quite different on a mountain with howling winds!

Katabatic winds is also interesting, the idea reminds me of the film Day After Tomorrrow. Again it could be tested but you'd have to wait for exactly the right conditions. I could easily imagine the panic they would cause, but I think they would find time to grab their gear.

I'm also pondering a meteor shower causing an airblast or shockwave, something like the Chelyabinsk and Kunakshak events. If they exploded overhead that could easily cause panic. I could imagine the authorities covering it up as standard procedure, because they might not be sure if it indeed was an attack, and it would highlight the fact they had no defence against it.

A military rocket crashing into a nearby mountain could also be plausible, and would explain the cover up, but that would mean there must be a crater somewhere nearby. A nuclear test would have been a breach of the US/USSR moratorium... so we'll probably never find out.

I've also been reading about the Hamar-Daban incident, their sudden deaths are equally bizarre.
 

February 08, 2021, 12:10:35 PM
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Manti


Online infrasound tests will not have any effect because speakers / headphones usually can't emit frequencies lower than 20Hz.

But also infrasound makes no sense as a reason to abandon the tent. If it's generated in the sky, it will spread in all directions, and walking away from the tent they would have quickly realised this and that their best option is to return and plug their ears.  lalala1


And re: nuclear test, to the contrary we would find out in fact the US found out the same day when Russia conducted two tests shortly after the test ban came into effect... There would have been political consequences at the time of another test violating the treaty and the US had capabilities to detect a test anywhere on Earth. So most likely there was no nuclear explosion
 

February 08, 2021, 12:35:03 PM
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ash73


Just coincidence that it's quite close to the S-75 Dvina site that shot down a U2 the following year? It was already operational in '59...

I'm more inclined to look at natural phenomena, such as meteor explosions... there were some reports of lights in the sky but I think they were mid-Feb, iirc.
 

February 08, 2021, 12:48:31 PM
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Missi


You're right, Manti, infrasound can't be transported via normal speakers or headphones. But as far as I know, findings suggest that just plugging your ears is not sufficient, because it's not only that you hear the sound, you feel it, too. It resonates inside your body, it might even equal the eigenfrequency of one or another part.

As far as I know (I've read it several times from different sources by now) you're right about the US being able to detect also very small nuclear explosions in the USSR, so I'd count that out as well.

Also as far as I know (by the reports of different interviewees according to the case files, I believe) there were light phenomena in the sky in the very night, that were seen by people in at least two cities nearby (Ivdel and Vizhay?).
 

February 08, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Ash 73 you have some catching up to do. Study Teddys Website and Forum. They are the best in the World, probably.
DB
 

February 08, 2021, 02:19:54 PM
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ash73


You're right, Manti, infrasound can't be transported via normal speakers or headphones. But as far as I know, findings suggest that just plugging your ears is not sufficient, because it's not only that you hear the sound, you feel it, too. It resonates inside your body, it might even equal the eigenfrequency of one or another part.

Eichar's book mentions the Israeli police using LRAD for crowd dipersal.

The question is how much effect would it have... with that particular shape of the ridge, in that particular location, and those particular conditions. And as pointed out, does the effect persist as you move down the slope. An expert could probably model it, and recreate the effect acoustically to test it. It would be an interesting experiment.

However in that situation I think I'd grab my coat and boots, whereas if meteors were exploding in the sky directly above me (in 1959) I'd run for cover.
 

February 08, 2021, 04:56:32 PM
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Manti


I didn't know about the U2 shootdown incident before, I like that I learn something new about that era every time I read this forum!
It looks like it was shot down more than 500km from Dyatlov Pass, but I don't know where the SAM site was, is that known? It would make sense that it was in that area surveying the nuclear plant there called "Mayak".

And indeed there were multiple reports of lights in the sky, some describing something moving across the sky and disappearing behind the horizon (meteorite?), and some describing an orange stationary ball, that sounds eerily similar to atmospheric nuclear tests but again I don't think that's occurred at that time. Anyway here's a video of one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsY1bTKbSYY


A bolide (exploding meteorite) could explain many aspects of the incident, for example it gives off strong UV radiation which could explain while their exposed skin seemed to be tanned, but then again lying on the snow for weeks some of which were sunny could also explain that if... tanning can happen after death... that I'm not sure of.
There would have been a flash of light so they would probably all go out to look at the sky, then later a shockwave that would knock them over, so it could also explain crush injuries. But how can it be a cause for abandoning the tent?

If there was a shockwave, trees in the forest would have shown damage, if the blast was far away so there's no shockwave, then a meteorite is something that might have happened but doesn't really explain the incident.
 

February 09, 2021, 12:24:23 AM
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Missi


I don't know, ash. But you're right, it would be very interesting to learn about the effect.

I don't know about a SAM site, Manti, but it would make sense. Especially when knowing, that three of all ten known restricted cities were in the oblast Tscheljabinsk. The city called Tscheljabinsk-40 including the plant Mayak being only one of them.

I somehow can't make a meteorite fit in the story. Yes, it would explain some aspects. But it leaves traces that are not there. If it hits ground there should be a crater somewhere. If it explodes in the air, there's a shockwave that must effect the trees nearby. Even if it was a lot smaller than the one of Tunguska.
 

February 09, 2021, 11:46:20 AM
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ash73


I've spent an interesting few hours today reading more case files and information on this site, it's a credit to everyone involved.

I've come full circle and am now sure it was murder. It's the only reasonable explanation for them leaving the tent unclothed, walking a mile barefoot in the snow to make a fire without taking wood cutting tools, and their injuries. I think they were followed, attacked, thrown out into the cold and left to die.

The local community were living hand to mouth and many won't have appreciated communist city kid adventurers singing songs and using the mountains as their back garden. Perhaps they upset them with something they said, but I think the attack was a statement, which may explain why valuable items were left in the tent.

They got their way in the short term, with organised hikes being banned in the area for 3 years. But now it's become a tourist destination for unsubtle American expeditions with crate loads of artic equipment, tents and motorised ski-mobiles all wanting to stay on the ridge. I take some satisfaction from knowing their descendents may not appreciate the irony.

I think the investigator made some critical errors - including local people in the search made it easy for them to obfuscate evidence and influence the investigation; racial prejudice made him suspect the Mansi rather than seeking out individuals; and he allowed himself to be misdirected (& even obsessed) by witness testimony such as tall tales of lights in the sky.

I think the authorities were embarrassed they couldn't protect their finest students, and were probably furious when he came to them with stories of orbs. They realised they would never find those responsible in such a close-knit community, so decided to shut it down with an avalanche cover story.

I feel desperately sorry for team Dyatlov, everyone talks about them as experienced hikers but really they were innocent and naive young adults, they didn't stand a chance of defending themselves in such an isolated location.

Whoever did it is almost certainly dead by now anyhow. I'll continue to read the case files, I suspect the answer lies in personal connections, family relations and who might be shielding whom.
 

February 09, 2021, 02:02:01 PM
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Missi


You've made up your mind. Can you substantiate your opinion by presenting a complete theory with circumstantial evidence?

I for one don't buy into it that someone followed them all the way just to murder them. That's not worth it. Why would someone do that?
I don't buy into authorities just letting something like that go, if they had lost some of "their finest students". They somehow had a history of finding someone responsible, whether he really was of not... Just to close the case successfully.

And why do you think they couldn't defend themselves? They had knifes, two axes, at least one trained boxing...
 

February 14, 2021, 06:15:47 PM
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Manti


Locals, that is Russian locals from Vizhay, were simply not equipped to follow them. It requires equipment like a stove, a tent, skis... We think of these as $50 items you can pop down to the local hypermarket to buy, but at the time, I would say even now in Vizhay, these are items not affordable for most people.And these are absolutely required for a multi-day trip following them to the pass.

The other locals, the Mansi, would have been properly equipped of course, and they also have broadskis that leave much shallower traces, and shotguns because they are hunters...they could have easily done it. It makes no logical sense however, because 1, they didn't stand to gain anything from killing the group and 2, if there was someone they hated more than "communist city kids", it was the soviet authorities, and they knew they would likely be blamed automatically even if there was no evidence.
So their best bet would have been to hide the bodies somewhere, they knew the forest so surely they would know the best spot. Or feed them to their sled dogs.  shock1   Instead, their shaman helped find multiple bodies and even helped locate the labaz...
 

February 14, 2021, 07:21:08 PM
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ash73


I don't suspect the Mansi, they wouldn't want to attract trouble and I doubt the hikers would be disrespectful to them. I'd say either people from Vizhay or Gulag prison guards.

Looking at photos of Vizhay, it was run-down with some dodgy looking characters, but I shouldn't judge by appearances; it could have been anyone.

https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay

As to why, I don't think they particularly had a grudge against the students I think it was a political statement; and for those people will go to some effort.

Although, I'm somewhat interested in Krivonischenko's backstory, I doubt it was straightforward to quit your job at a nuclear facility in 1950's Russia.

And Zolotaryov. What precisely was he up to?

I doubt we'll ever know.
 

February 15, 2021, 12:36:37 AM
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Missi


Locals, that is Russian locals from Vizhay, were simply not equipped to follow them. It requires equipment like a stove, a tent, skis... We think of these as $50 items you can pop down to the local hypermarket to buy, but at the time, I would say even now in Vizhay, these are items not affordable for most people.And these are absolutely required for a multi-day trip following them to the pass.

The other locals, the Mansi, would have been properly equipped of course, and they also have broadskis that leave much shallower traces, and shotguns because they are hunters...they could have easily done it. It makes no logical sense however, because 1, they didn't stand to gain anything from killing the group and 2, if there was someone they hated more than "communist city kids", it was the soviet authorities, and they knew they would likely be blamed automatically even if there was no evidence.
So their best bet would have been to hide the bodies somewhere, they knew the forest so surely they would know the best spot. Or feed them to their sled dogs.  shock1   Instead, their shaman helped find multiple bodies and even helped locate the labaz...

I like your analysis. Completely with you there.

ash, we're talking about murder here. Murder comes with three aspects: the motive, the means and the opportunity.
Thinking of some ominous person from Vizhay, they might have had a motive as in your political statement. As Manti stated, I doubt they'd have the means to follow the group to the pass and I'd say there were easier opportunities...

Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

 

February 15, 2021, 01:48:57 AM
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ash73


Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

He worked in Chelyabinsk 40, a secret nuclear facility, and was assigned to the cleanup of the Kyshtym disaster. He quit because of "complete unwillingness to work in this system" presumably due to poor safety and working conditions; so he could be seen as a potential whistleblower.
 

February 15, 2021, 09:04:44 AM
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KFinn


Locals, that is Russian locals from Vizhay, were simply not equipped to follow them. It requires equipment like a stove, a tent, skis... We think of these as $50 items you can pop down to the local hypermarket to buy, but at the time, I would say even now in Vizhay, these are items not affordable for most people.And these are absolutely required for a multi-day trip following them to the pass.

The other locals, the Mansi, would have been properly equipped of course, and they also have broadskis that leave much shallower traces, and shotguns because they are hunters...they could have easily done it. It makes no logical sense however, because 1, they didn't stand to gain anything from killing the group and 2, if there was someone they hated more than "communist city kids", it was the soviet authorities, and they knew they would likely be blamed automatically even if there was no evidence.
So their best bet would have been to hide the bodies somewhere, they knew the forest so surely they would know the best spot. Or feed them to their sled dogs.  shock1   Instead, their shaman helped find multiple bodies and even helped locate the labaz...

I like your analysis. Completely with you there.

ash, we're talking about murder here. Murder comes with three aspects: the motive, the means and the opportunity.
Thinking of some ominous person from Vizhay, they might have had a motive as in your political statement. As Manti stated, I doubt they'd have the means to follow the group to the pass and I'd say there were easier opportunities...

Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

Re: murder.  This.  Criminological theories mostly (there are outliers, as in everything,) agree that for crime to happen there are 1. an actor willing to commit the crime, 2. the absence of a mitigating authority (this can be everything from the presence of law enforcement to perceived sightlines, such as windows,) and 3. a viable target (again, this could be people, things, etc.)  In this case, we might have willing actors.  We might have viable targets.  There is most certainly an absence of mitigating authority IF it is a crime of opportunity.  Otherwise, the pervading fear of being caught and being punished with severe consequences would be a highly mitigating authority.  IF its a crime of opportunity, then the actors are least likely to follow the hikers into a vast, cold wilderness in a blizzard.  After an hour, its no longer a crime of opportunity because the opportunity is going to take days to achieve.  Anyone committing a crime of opportunity by this time will have cooled off (okay, pun intended here, lol!) and gone home. So, we would need to be focusing on some really, highly motivated individuals.  Lets also remember that whomever followed these hikers into the mountains to kill them would be missing work.  That would not go unnoticed.  Remember, it was only a few years before 1959 where you would be sent to a gulag for simply being late to work.  The Soviet system was built on everyone doing their share for the greater good; that's why Bienko could not go on the hike.  He still owed labor debt to the state for being a student and using all of his vacations for hiking instead of putting in work hours. 

This is the main reason murder does not hold up for me.  It just doesn't have the patterns of behavior you see in high crime. 
-Ren
 

February 15, 2021, 10:19:14 AM
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ash73


The problem with a murder hypothesis is it's impossible for decent rational people to think as a murderer does; even if the evidence is staring them in the face. It must be difficult to convince a jury to convict a killer, for that reason. I don't think people in Vizhay would struggle to find a few pairs of skis and warm coats, and I expect enough of them would be familiar with the mountains. But I don't know it was people from Vizhay.

It comes down to which evidence you prioritise, if it's their injuries then it's killed by persons unknown, if it's lights in the sky & government coverup then it's rocket crash, or meteor blast. No other theory I've read so far explains why they fled the tent with no shoes, coats or wood cutting tools. Bad weather and incompetence is always a possibility, but there are just too many oddities in this case to make that plausible, imo.

I'm not trying to convince anyone btw, I'm just here for my own interest.
 

February 15, 2021, 11:11:58 AM
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KFinn


The problem with a murder hypothesis is it's impossible for decent rational people to think as a murderer does; even if the evidence is staring them in the face. It must be difficult to convince a jury to convict a killer, for that reason. I don't think people in Vizhay would struggle to find a few pairs of skis and warm coats, and I expect enough of them would be familiar with the mountains. But I don't know it was people from Vizhay.

It comes down to which evidence you prioritise, if it's their injuries then it's killed by persons unknown, if it's lights in the sky & government coverup then it's rocket crash, or meteor blast. No other theory I've read so far explains why they fled the tent with no shoes, coats or wood cutting tools. Bad weather and incompetence is always a possibility, but there are just too many oddities in this case to make that plausible, imo.

I'm not trying to convince anyone btw, I'm just here for my own interest.

I would disagree with the comment that it is hard for decent, rational people to think as a murderer does; murders would never be solved if investigators were not able to think as the murderer did.  Not to mention, everyone carries the propensity for murder.  As a victim's advocate, I routinely saw "decent, rational" people do horrible things because of emotion or simply just because.  When serving on parole boards, I would typically consider paroling a murderer before someone with drug related crimes because nine times out of ten, murder is simply a crime of passion that happens in a bad moment and the offender rarely recidivates, unlike those arrested with drug crimes (unless there are other circumstances at play such as a sociopathic or psychopathic personality, etc, but I don't think that applies here.) 

I will say, when I first started researching this, I felt the same.  There was nothing to me, other than human interference, that could explain the hikers leaving their tent and protective gear.  But over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.  Sometimes I circle back to murder, but the evidence just does not hold up for me, personally.  I wish we had definitive answers but, then there would be no puzzle and no discussion and I would miss that.  I love seeing other people's perspectives and how they come to their conclusions.  Even here, I'm an American, I assume by your icon that you are from the UK.  We have different ideas, some of which are probably because our cultures differ and our perspectives are unique to one another.  I love reading from Russian commenters here, since they understand the culture in ways I can't or have never considered.  We all bring something to the table and the discussion allows for looking at things in new ways, which is invaluable!!! 
-Ren
 

February 15, 2021, 12:13:09 PM
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ash73


...over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.

What is your theory?
 

February 15, 2021, 01:16:39 PM
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KFinn


...over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.

What is your theory?

Bear with me; its kind of long and convoluted, lol.

I kind of waffle back and forth, to be honest.  On one hand, I believe that there was a weather related event and the group made decisions that, while the best options they had, led to their deaths.  When I watched the Expedition Unknown episode with Josh Gates and Teddy and saw the conditions on the ridge in "normal" winters, it seemed like a revelation to me.  Reading all of the witness testimonies about the superstorm that occurred in early February and the accounts of other hiking groups in the area who also had problems, I really believe that the weather was the catalyst.  I know that makes leaving the tent even more suspect, but we make odd decisions sometimes when in the middle of a tragedy with only split seconds to decide.  To me, in a crisis event, I try to regroup, triage and go from there.  Focus on getting through the first five minutes, then focus on the next hour, then focus on the next twelve hours (at twelve hours, you will either be alive or dead; daylight will arrive, etc.). If something is wrong at the tent, say the wind and snow are too much.  Its all going to blow away (or something to that effect,) you have five minutes to secure the tent in order to try and save what is inside, sixty minutes to get to shelter (the cedar being the only shelter around,) regroup, triage and come up with the best plan to make it to sunrise.  (Get a fire going for immediate warmth, start building a better shelter, possibly send someone back to the tent for supplies.)

On the other hand, there is the tent.  The tent, the stove, their food, their entire lifeline.  It would have to be extraordinary, extreme circumstances not to get better gear on when leaving and to leave the tent behind.  Here is where I waffle with the cover up theory.  Part of me is convinced the group would not have camped on that exposed ridge in the middle of a storm, considering how bad the wind is under normal circumstances.  Some of that has to do with the cache.  According to the supposed timeline, they tried to ascend the ridge and had to turn back, then they dug the cache and went back up the ridge to try and ascend again and wound up camped on the ridge.  That doesn't make sense to me.  The logical sequence would be make the cache, try to ascend, turn back, try again the next day.  But, we know the tent was found on the ridge, and we know where the bodies were found.  What if they didn't camp on the ridge, though?  What if they camped elsewhere, something completely accidental and mundane happened but the camp was close to something the locals or authorities did not want outsiders seeing?  This comes close to someone else's theory and I don't want to draw from their more in depth research.  It just is the only thing to me that can explain the tent being on that ridge where there is just no other reason for it to be. 

So, my theories are a bit boring and mundane, I know.  The cover up part is so completely against my pragmatism but I can not reconcile the tent being there for any other reason.  I know that some hikers felt Dyatlov would use it as practice for his trip to the sub polar Urals, where they'd be above the tree line, but I just don't see them taking the chance in that storm.  Then again, if the weather kicked it up into a danger zone after they'd made camp and it was too late...

This also relies on not focusing on things that could have mundane answers, like the radiation (I think the area was high in radiation as it was and some of it could have also come in on their clothes, as well,) or the nature of their injuries.  I think for Zina, Igor and Rustem, they were crawling up hill, already in a severe physical state, with high winds and ice and snow hitting them, and they were falling on their faces and such.  I think the Yuris probably knew that staying to tend the fire for the others was akin to suicide but you sacrificed so your comrades could live.  I think the state of the ravine 4 either had a lot to do with decomposition, animal predation etc or they were injured in whatever accident happened if they were camped elsewhere.  I know there is a lot of debate about their injuries and I don't discount that their injuries are one of the biggest mysteries of all. 

And there is so much more, as always, lol!  I love social psychology, so learning about their lives, their interactions, the lives of those involved with the rescue and search etc are really interesting to me.  I don't think there was anything between Zina and Igor, as some believe.  Zina sent a letter to a friend before the hike describing Igor as basically a loner that none if the girls were interested in.  I do find it curious how much she writes about Rustem on the hike...  I don't know why, but hearing other students saying Kolevatov was a jerk and none of the girls wanted to be around him somehow piques my curiosity.  Just curiosity, though; I don't think any fights broke out over love triangles or anything.  I interpret some of their writings differently than others, just to try and see different perspectives.  They were just a fascinating group of normal people.
-Ren
 

February 15, 2021, 02:55:17 PM
Reply #20
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ash73


Thanks that's interesting.

Maybe I misunderstood something, why were Zina, Igor and Rustem climbing the hill if the tent wasn't there?

I'll get round to reading the book at some point to find out more about this tent migration theory.
 

February 15, 2021, 03:18:36 PM
Reply #21
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KFinn


Thanks that's interesting.

Maybe I misunderstood something, why were Zina, Igor and Rustem climbing the hill if the tent wasn't there?

I'll get round to reading the book at some point to find out more about this tent migration theory.

That's an excellent question.  If the tent was not there, were their bodies staged there?  Were they trying to get to higher ground for some reason?  Could they have died on the way *down* the hill?  (There is an article somewhere on this site where it was determined that Ivanov changed the distance of the footprints in his report so that Zina's body was not in the zone of the prints.  I have to do more digging on that, though.)   Was there something on the ridge that they needed or thought could help them?  Its still one of the many mysteries to be fleshed out, for me.
-Ren
 

February 15, 2021, 03:20:01 PM
Reply #22
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Missi


Krivonischenko, according to Rakitin, was working with a construction firm. His quitting was due to a change to another construction firm working at another restricted area. That doesn't seem so strange to me. But of course I must take Rakitins word for it as of now, because I haven't had the chance to research in that direction myself.

He worked in Chelyabinsk 40, a secret nuclear facility, and was assigned to the cleanup of the Kyshtym disaster. He quit because of "complete unwillingness to work in this system" presumably due to poor safety and working conditions; so he could be seen as a potential whistleblower.

You're right, I remember that one, too. Maybe I'm mixing two guys up...? I'll look it up as soon as I can.

Re: murder.  This.  Criminological theories mostly (there are outliers, as in everything,) agree that for crime to happen there are 1. an actor willing to commit the crime, 2. the absence of a mitigating authority (this can be everything from the presence of law enforcement to perceived sightlines, such as windows,) and 3. a viable target (again, this could be people, things, etc.)  In this case, we might have willing actors.  We might have viable targets.  There is most certainly an absence of mitigating authority IF it is a crime of opportunity.  Otherwise, the pervading fear of being caught and being punished with severe consequences would be a highly mitigating authority.  IF its a crime of opportunity, then the actors are least likely to follow the hikers into a vast, cold wilderness in a blizzard.  After an hour, its no longer a crime of opportunity because the opportunity is going to take days to achieve.  Anyone committing a crime of opportunity by this time will have cooled off (okay, pun intended here, lol!) and gone home. So, we would need to be focusing on some really, highly motivated individuals.  Lets also remember that whomever followed these hikers into the mountains to kill them would be missing work.  That would not go unnoticed.  Remember, it was only a few years before 1959 where you would be sent to a gulag for simply being late to work.  The Soviet system was built on everyone doing their share for the greater good; that's why Bienko could not go on the hike.  He still owed labor debt to the state for being a student and using all of his vacations for hiking instead of putting in work hours. 

This is the main reason murder does not hold up for me.  It just doesn't have the patterns of behavior you see in high crime. 

I'm not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that just another argument for my point, being that a murder by locals (either Russians or Mansi) would be quite unlikely?

By the way: I never heard of Bienko having to work because of labor debt. Whenever I read about the reasons he was not allowed to take part in the hike, it was him failing some exams.

I will say, when I first started researching this, I felt the same.  There was nothing to me, other than human interference, that could explain the hikers leaving their tent and protective gear.  But over time, I'm more and more inclined to think in other directions.  Sometimes I circle back to murder, but the evidence just does not hold up for me, personally.  I wish we had definitive answers but, then there would be no puzzle and no discussion and I would miss that.  I love seeing other people's perspectives and how they come to their conclusions.  Even here, I'm an American, I assume by your icon that you are from the UK.  We have different ideas, some of which are probably because our cultures differ and our perspectives are unique to one another.  I love reading from Russian commenters here, since they understand the culture in ways I can't or have never considered.  We all bring something to the table and the discussion allows for looking at things in new ways, which is invaluable!!! 

That sounds pretty familiar. At first I was all "Oh, it was just an accident, just nature." Then I thought it must have been some kind of government involvement to cover up something top secret. Then I read Rakitin, who says it was basically the KGB wanting to get some faked evidences to foreign spies by means of undercover agents, the evidences being radioactive dust traveling in the clothes of Krivonischenko. As of now, I do see flaws in his arguments but it seems the best way to get everything together, the injuries, the cut tent, the left clothes and tools...

He also made me think a lot about the fire by the cedar. According to Rakitin the cedar is not level ground but stands on a small hill. That makes the place exposed to the elements. I find it hard to believe, that someone fleeing a tent because it was too exposed on the ridge would then go to another exposed place to light a fire.
He also states that the fire was lit on the side of the tree that was exposed to the wind. Having seen the Expedition Unknown episodes and taking into account that (also according to Rakitin) the tree was between the fire and the tent, I can't believe that this was the side exposed to the wind. Anyone got an opinion on that?

The thing with the storage and the accent seems a bit weird to me as well. I understand they were halfway up the mountain when they realized they wouldn't make it until evening and returned to the Auspija valley. This seems a logical thing to do. They could have put up storage on the other side of the mountain in the Lozwa valley. But why did they decide to build the storage in the first part of the day, not being sure whether they would be able to make the whole way across the mountain ridge? I can imagine only two reasons for that: First they didn't plan to descend to the valley but wanted to keep their height. Then it wouldn't matter which time it was, for they didn't plan to have another night in the woods. Second - as Rakitin suggests - they had an appointment to keep and couldn't move forward without missing it.

By the way, there seem to be different reports even concerning the weather. Some reports state that it was pretty warm those late January and first two or three February days in 1959 (including one or two diary entries I've read), whereas others state there were bad storms and it was bloody cold, having other hikers getting into trouble and even returning with frostbites as their evidence.
I'm confused. But I guess, that's a normal state of mind when researching the incident. So I'll leave for bed and sleep it all over...
 

February 15, 2021, 04:29:53 PM
Reply #23
Offline

ash73



He also made me think a lot about the fire by the cedar. According to Rakitin the cedar is not level ground but stands on a small hill. That makes the place exposed to the elements. I find it hard to believe, that someone fleeing a tent because it was too exposed on the ridge would then go to another exposed place to light a fire.
He also states that the fire was lit on the side of the tree that was exposed to the wind. Having seen the Expedition Unknown episodes and taking into account that (also according to Rakitin) the tree was between the fire and the tent, I can't believe that this was the side exposed to the wind. Anyone got an opinion on that?


I understand the cedar was on slightly raised ground, with less trees around it than there are now, and the fire was on the far side sheltered from the wind, so it couldn't be seen from the tent. Whereas branches removed from the cedar 1-5m high were on the windward side, facing the tent. The cuts in the tent were on the downslope side, so someone still inside the tent would see anyone approach from the trees.

I saw someone on here mention spent matches strewn about the cedar but I haven't found it in the case files yet, do we know for sure the hikers started the fire? For that matter we don't know they made the den either, I'm dubious about them digging it out with their bare hands (the hands of the den 4 were unmarked).
 

February 15, 2021, 07:32:54 PM
Reply #24
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KFinn


Missi-

"not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that just another argument for my point, being that a murder by locals (either Russians or Mansi) would be quite unlikely?"

Yes, I was agreeing with you :)
-Ren
 

February 15, 2021, 09:01:20 PM
Reply #25
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KFinn


Regarding Bienko,

"When the last preparations were completed and there were three days before leaving, Bienko as a student was summoned to the Komsomol committee, where he was questioned what he had done during the last summer and winter holidays, when his comrades and fellow students helped the national economy on labor fronts - on state farms, timber industry enterprises and at construction sites in the country. It turned out that Vladislav had spent all his holidays on mountain hikes! Well, if so, then the Komsomol member Bienko was immediately awarded a ticket to the "Udarnik" timber industry enterprise, and no higher school administration could help him escape this fate.

- Even our head of the department, Professor Pal Zakharych Petukhov, could not help me, - recalls Vladislav Bienko, - with whom I had very good relations. I had to give my share of equipment and food to Semyon Zolotaryov, who replaced me, an instructor at the Kourovka tour base. And when the time came for the group to leave for the North, all I could do was help my comrades load heavy backpacks on the train."

https://dyatlovpass.com/bienko?rbid=18461
-Ren
 

February 16, 2021, 01:08:20 AM
Reply #26
Offline

Missi


I do remember skimming over that one, you're right. Why on earth are there so many different reports on things, that should be just facts and nothing to be subject to subjectivity... I have to find the source of my believing he had failed exams...

Missi-

"not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that just another argument for my point, being that a murder by locals (either Russians or Mansi) would be quite unlikely?"

Yes, I was agreeing with you :)


Good. I like to be agreed with. :) Thanks.


ash, I'm starting to wonder if we know anything for sure other than that there were 9 hikers that disappeared and were found dead. As the fire and the den are concerned, as far as I know, we just assume based on the fact that no indicators of other people around the place at that time were found.
 

February 16, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
Reply #27
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MDGross


ash73, Manti, Missi and Finn: Solid ideas from all of you. I always think of the DPI as endlessly fascinating with no air-tight solution possible. After 62 years, records and evidence have been lost, destroyed or hidden. Still, once you're hooked, you can't help but enjoy the speculation. And it seems inevitable to favor one theory today and a different one tomorrow. As of today, I favor the idea that they acted irrationally and were not in their right minds. Infrasound could cause this, or toxic fumes from an exploded missile. There is the theory that they inhaled tiny spores from hallucinogenic mushrooms or that they were slowly poisoned and became irrational from fungus in the rye bread they ate. Tomorrow, I might like the idea that espionage was at the heart of the tragedy. 1959 was the height of the Cold War, Soviet citizens paid by the CIA and Americans paid by the KGB were everywhere in the Soviet Union and the U.S. In this scenario, Zolotaryov is often the center of attention since none of the others knew him before he joined the hike. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I asked the CIA for any information it had about Zolotaryov. I got a convoluted response that the CIA could neither confirm or deny the existence or nonexistence of such information and it was all classified anyway.
My point is to keep an open mind, which you all seem willing to do. Don't dismiss any ideas out of hand as nonsense. The only real nonsense is that we continue to explore a mystery that is never going to be solved. But isn't it fun and enjoyable anyway???!!!
 

February 16, 2021, 10:25:40 AM
Reply #28
Offline

KFinn


ash73, Manti, Missi and Finn: Solid ideas from all of you. I always think of the DPI as endlessly fascinating with no air-tight solution possible. After 62 years, records and evidence have been lost, destroyed or hidden. Still, once you're hooked, you can't help but enjoy the speculation. And it seems inevitable to favor one theory today and a different one tomorrow. As of today, I favor the idea that they acted irrationally and were not in their right minds. Infrasound could cause this, or toxic fumes from an exploded missile. There is the theory that they inhaled tiny spores from hallucinogenic mushrooms or that they were slowly poisoned and became irrational from fungus in the rye bread they ate. Tomorrow, I might like the idea that espionage was at the heart of the tragedy. 1959 was the height of the Cold War, Soviet citizens paid by the CIA and Americans paid by the KGB were everywhere in the Soviet Union and the U.S. In this scenario, Zolotaryov is often the center of attention since none of the others knew him before he joined the hike. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I asked the CIA for any information it had about Zolotaryov. I got a convoluted response that the CIA could neither confirm or deny the existence or nonexistence of such information and it was all classified anyway.
My point is to keep an open mind, which you all seem willing to do. Don't dismiss any ideas out of hand as nonsense. The only real nonsense is that we continue to explore a mystery that is never going to be solved. But isn't it fun and enjoyable anyway???!!!

Well said!

Mysteries like this call to you in a personal way.  I followed it for sometime out of curiosity but when my children hit the age of 19, it became more.  That hit something in me, recognizing that these hikers were real people with families, dreams, goals.  They've had a greater purpose than they ever would have known in life, by drawing together thousands of people throughout sixty+ years, inspiring masses.  They've given some of us renewed feelings of purpose, by allowing us the chance to try and solve the various mysteries involved in their deaths.  They've allowed us to get glimpses into their lives, lives we probably never would have had the chance to know otherwise.  I hope my own death is quiet, quick and uneventful but if any mystery surrounds it, I couldn't ask for a better honor than to have people still talking about me sixty years later. 
-Ren
 

February 16, 2021, 11:22:06 AM
Reply #29
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
ash73, Manti, Missi and Finn: Solid ideas from all of you. I always think of the DPI as endlessly fascinating with no air-tight solution possible. After 62 years, records and evidence have been lost, destroyed or hidden. Still, once you're hooked, you can't help but enjoy the speculation. And it seems inevitable to favor one theory today and a different one tomorrow. As of today, I favor the idea that they acted irrationally and were not in their right minds. Infrasound could cause this, or toxic fumes from an exploded missile. There is the theory that they inhaled tiny spores from hallucinogenic mushrooms or that they were slowly poisoned and became irrational from fungus in the rye bread they ate. Tomorrow, I might like the idea that espionage was at the heart of the tragedy. 1959 was the height of the Cold War, Soviet citizens paid by the CIA and Americans paid by the KGB were everywhere in the Soviet Union and the U.S. In this scenario, Zolotaryov is often the center of attention since none of the others knew him before he joined the hike. Under the Freedom of Information Act, I asked the CIA for any information it had about Zolotaryov. I got a convoluted response that the CIA could neither confirm or deny the existence or nonexistence of such information and it was all classified anyway.
My point is to keep an open mind, which you all seem willing to do. Don't dismiss any ideas out of hand as nonsense. The only real nonsense is that we continue to explore a mystery that is never going to be solved. But isn't it fun and enjoyable anyway???!!!

Yes some very useful input from the newcomers to this Forum. I think this Mystery could be solved one day, but I think we are going to need more Evidence to come to light. Yes even after 60 years its still possible for Missing Evidence to make an appearance.
DB