Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: amashilu on January 18, 2023, 07:46:44 AM
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"The victims were thrown out of the tent by a hurricane. The direction of the hurricane is northeast east, therefore all of them are in the same line from the discovered tent …"
—Maslennikov
"One came out, he was blown away. He screamed. Everyone ran out."
—Grigoriev
A good way to approach any investigation is to do your best to weed out assumptions from facts. The above 2 statements were assumptions which were gradually scrapped because the bodies (facts), later discovered, did not fit the assumptions.
Assumption that particularly grates on me: Zina, Igor, and Rustem were "trying to get back to the tent" because their bodies were found in something of a line going up the slope. If I see you walking down a rural country road, and I know that a mile down the road is the library, I might assume that you are heading to the library. Certainly logical, but in fact, you are going to the patch of blueberries 100 yards ahead, to pick some berries to make a pie.
It would be fine with me if we all call each other out on assumptions that don't match the facts.
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"The victims were thrown out of the tent by a hurricane. The direction of the hurricane is northeast east, therefore all of them are in the same line from the discovered tent …"
—Maslennikov
"One came out, he was blown away. He screamed. Everyone ran out."
—Grigoriev
A good way to approach any investigation is to do your best to weed out assumptions from facts. The above 2 statements were assumptions which were gradually scrapped because the bodies (facts), later discovered, did not fit the assumptions.
Assumption that particularly grates on me: Zina, Igor, and Rustem were "trying to get back to the tent" because their bodies were found in something of a line going up the slope. If I see you walking down a rural country road, and I know that a mile down the road is the library, I might assume that you are heading to the library. Certainly logical, but in fact, you are going to the patch of blueberries 100 yards ahead, to pick some berries to make a pie.
It would be fine with me if we all call each other out on assumptions that don't match the facts.
Even the date of the occurrence is an assumption based on a lack of entries in a diary.
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"The victims were thrown out of the tent by a hurricane. The direction of the hurricane is northeast east, therefore all of them are in the same line from the discovered tent …"
—Maslennikov
"One came out, he was blown away. He screamed. Everyone ran out."
—Grigoriev
A good way to approach any investigation is to do your best to weed out assumptions from facts. The above 2 statements were assumptions which were gradually scrapped because the bodies (facts), later discovered, did not fit the assumptions.
It would be fine with me if we all call each other out on assumptions that don't match the facts.
"The guys were tricked out of the tent, for example, under the guise of helping a wounded hunter, they came out warmly dressed, and, going down the slope, they fell into a trap. They were ordered to undress, but they resisted. Then they began to be killed and forcibly undressed to create the appearance that they themselves were frozen.
- Anna of the Russians. Saint Petersburg.All assumptions correspond to the facts.
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"The victims were thrown out of the tent by a hurricane. The direction of the hurricane is northeast east, therefore all of them are in the same line from the discovered tent …"
—Maslennikov
"One came out, he was blown away. He screamed. Everyone ran out."
—Grigoriev
A good way to approach any investigation is to do your best to weed out assumptions from facts. The above 2 statements were assumptions which were gradually scrapped because the bodies (facts), later discovered, did not fit the assumptions.
Assumption that particularly grates on me: Zina, Igor, and Rustem were "trying to get back to the tent" because their bodies were found in something of a line going up the slope. If I see you walking down a rural country road, and I know that a mile down the road is the library, I might assume that you are heading to the library. Certainly logical, but in fact, you are going to the patch of blueberries 100 yards ahead, to pick some berries to make a pie.
It would be fine with me if we all call each other out on assumptions that don't match the facts.
Even the date of the occurrence is an assumption based on a lack of entries in a diary.
very strong evidence....Diaries are written every day and if "that day" is not written, it is very likely that the event occurred on that day. At least it is definitive proof of the beginning of events!!!
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"very strong evidence....Diaries are written every day and if "that day" is not written, it is very likely that the event occurred on that day. At least it is definitive proof of the beginning of events!!!"
well if we are going by the ending of a diary means the person is no longer alive, then Zina passed away jan 29 and Lyuda passed away jan 28
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"very strong evidence....Diaries are written every day and if "that day" is not written, it is very likely that the event occurred on that day. At least it is definitive proof of the beginning of events!!!"
well if we are going by the ending of a diary means the person is no longer alive, then Zina passed away jan 29 and Lyuda passed away jan 28
I wrote for those who write diaries every day. Of course, the diary of someone who writes one day and does not write one day is not evidence.....I knew that the diaries were complete. Especially Zina's diary
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"very strong evidence....Diaries are written every day and if "that day" is not written, it is very likely that the event occurred on that day. At least it is definitive proof of the beginning of events!!!"
well if we are going by the ending of a diary means the person is no longer alive, then Zina passed away jan 29 and Lyuda passed away jan 28
I was about to say something along that line as well, but we have to admit, that in the group diary, there was at least one entry per day, until Jan 31.
Although I'm not sure, how sure we can be about someone taking out pages of the diaries. dunno1
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Zina wrote every single day until she didn't. so by that qualification, she wasn't around after the last date in her diary
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my computer flashed and my reply was posted but not finished and I can't modify it
I believe that the diaries were tampered with so its a logical assumption to me that the reason the diary ended there was to make us think that was when the event happened
assumptions, to me, are anything that could be but we have zero proof of. We have zero proof when it happened, we can make an assumption it happened on X because of the dates.
so the date of the incident is an assumption. Could be called a logical one if a person believes they were there and put the tent up but it is still an assumption
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By that logic, she would have died on Jan 30th. Which I guess, we would have found mentioned in some other diaries.
I also am not averse to the theory of tampering of diaries. Yet I believe it to have been tampering in form of taking away entries, not in form of adding fictional ones.
As for the date: I'm with you on that one. It might have been another date when the incident happened.
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"The guys were tricked out of the tent, for example, under the guise of helping a wounded hunter, they came out warmly dressed, and, going down the slope, they fell into a trap. They were ordered to undress, but they resisted. Then they began to be killed and forcibly undressed to create the appearance that they themselves were frozen.
- Anna of the Russians. Saint Petersburg.All assumptions correspond to the facts.
This entire paragraph is speculation. No facts.
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1. Rustem had ice below his body. He had sufficient body heat to melt snow which then froze to ice.
2. All conscious behavior is motivated.
3. All reflexive behavior is stimulated.
4. He was found facing upslope.
5. He was found oriented toward the tent.
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The group came together from the tent to the cedar tree. Here they lit a fire to warm up and gather some courage. And they came up with a plan. The unknown force had driven them out of the tent! And they had to go back to the tent, too. And they thought that if they returned to the tent and they succeeded, they would be freed from the unknown force. Because to be able to return to the tent meant defeating the unknown force. And they would get rid of it. The two Yuri climbed a tree for a lookout. They could not see the unknown power. They thought he had gone too far. And immediately Igor Rustem and Zina started walking towards the tent. They were hurrying. They had to seize the tent before the unknown force came back again. They started to come back from the footprints they made on the way to the cedar. But the unknown force caught them halfway!!!
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The group came together from the tent to the cedar tree. Here they lit a fire to warm up and gather some courage. And they came up with a plan. The unknown force had driven them out of the tent! And they had to go back to the tent, too. And they thought that if they returned to the tent and they succeeded, they would be freed from the unknown force. Because to be able to return to the tent meant defeating the unknown force. And they would get rid of it. The two Yuri climbed a tree for a lookout. They could not see the unknown power. They thought he had gone too far. And immediately Igor Rustem and Zina started walking towards the tent. They were hurrying. They had to seize the tent before the unknown force came back again. They started to come back from the footprints they made on the way to the cedar. But the unknown force caught them halfway!!!
The only fact in this paragraph is "The unknown force had driven them out of the tent!" Everything else is your own assumption.
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"The guys were tricked out of the tent, for example, under the guise of helping a wounded hunter, they came out warmly dressed, and, going down the slope, they fell into a trap. They were ordered to undress, but they resisted. Then they began to be killed and forcibly undressed to create the appearance that they themselves were frozen.
- Anna of the Russians. Saint Petersburg.All assumptions correspond to the facts.
This entire paragraph is speculation. No facts.
evidence:
1. it has already been verified by many expeditions that it is not possible to run naked and barefoot on a snowy and rocky slope in severe frost. So the tourists came out dressed!
2. With such injuries as the guys had, it is also impossible to walk 1.5 kilometers! So they came out when they were healthy and there were no injuries!
3. The tent was cut by Sharavin and Slobtsov, the tent was also dilapidated (holes were sewn at each stop, at a halt). So the guys didn't jump out and cut the tent, it would be madness to cut their tent, which they diligently sewed up. So the guys came out warmly dressed and walked calmly.
But they were going to their doom!!! So there was a deception by which the guys were rescued from the tent.
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Not saved, but the guys were tricked out of the tent! Terrible translation...
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"The guys were tricked out of the tent, for example, under the guise of helping a wounded hunter, they came out warmly dressed, and, going down the slope, they fell into a trap. They were ordered to undress, but they resisted. Then they began to be killed and forcibly undressed to create the appearance that they themselves were frozen.
- Anna of the Russians. Saint Petersburg.All assumptions correspond to the facts.
This entire paragraph is speculation. No facts.
evidence:
1. it has already been verified by many expeditions that it is not possible to run naked and barefoot on a snowy and rocky slope in severe frost. So the tourists came out dressed!
2. With such injuries as the guys had, it is also impossible to walk 1.5 kilometers! So they came out when they were healthy and there were no injuries!
3. The tent was cut by Sharavin and Slobtsov, the tent was also dilapidated (holes were sewn at each stop, at a halt). So the guys didn't jump out and cut the tent, it would be madness to cut their tent, which they diligently sewed up. So the guys came out warmly dressed and walked calmly.
But they were going to their doom!!! So there was a deception by which the guys were rescued from the tent.
I remember from the diaries that repairing the tent was a continuous task.
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I remember from the diaries that repairing the tent was a continuous task.
To assume that the guys, having cut their tent, jumped out naked means to go against human logic and common sense. Only illiterate party organs that controlled the search and controlled the investigation could come up with such a thing
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evidence:
1. it has already been verified by many expeditions that it is not possible to run naked and barefoot on a snowy and rocky slope in severe frost. So the tourists came out dressed!
2. With such injuries as the guys had, it is also impossible to walk 1.5 kilometers! So they came out when they were healthy and there were no injuries! .... So the guys came out warmly dressed and walked calmly.
I agree that it is probably not possible to "run naked and barefoot on a snowy slope" for very long, but when you jump from that to the assumption that "So the tourists came out dressed!" and later "So the guys came out warmly dressed and walked calmly" you have ventured away from the facts and into the tempting world of assumptions. The case files state that the hikers' warm clothing was found still in the tent, not on their bodies:
From the case files:
On March 3, 1959 at Ivdel airport all things from the location where the tent was found were spread out and protocoled: 9 parka, 8 quilted jackets (vatnik), 1 fur jacket, 2 fur sleeveless vests, 4 shell pants, 1 cotton pants, 4 Scarf, 13 pairs of gloves (fur, cloth and leather), 8 pairs of ski boots, 7 pcs boots (valenki), 2 pairs of slippers, 8 pairs of gaiters, 3 skating caps, 1 fur hat, 2 felt beret …
And:
Official protocol report on the Tent from the Dyatlov group:
Tent is stretched on poles and fixed with ropes, at the bottom of the tent 9 backpacks were discovered with various personal items, jackets, rain coats, 9 pairs of shoes. There were also found men's pants, and three pairs of boots, warm fur coats, socks, hat, ski caps, utensils, buckets, stove, ax, saw, blankets,
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I remember from the diaries that repairing the tent was a continuous task.
To assume that the guys, having cut their tent, jumped out naked means to go against human logic and common sense. Only illiterate party organs that controlled the search and controlled the investigation could come up with such a thing
I share your thought. I am 100% convinced they did not cut their way out of the tent. There was only 3 small cuts made, the rest of the damage was by search groups.
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I agree that it is probably not possible to "run naked and barefoot on a snowy slope" for very long, but when you jump from that to the assumption that "So the tourists came out dressed!" and later "So the guys came out warmly dressed and walked calmly" you have ventured away from the facts and into the tempting world of assumptions. The case files state that the hikers' warm clothing was found still in the tent, not on their bodies:
From the case files:
On March 3, 1959 at Ivdel airport all things from the location where the tent was found were spread out and protocoled: 9 parka, 8 quilted jackets (vatnik), 1 fur jacket, 2 fur sleeveless vests, 4 shell pants, 1 cotton pants, 4 Scarf, 13 pairs of gloves (fur, cloth and leather), 8 pairs of ski boots, 7 pcs boots (valenki), 2 pairs of slippers, 8 pairs of gaiters, 3 skating caps, 1 fur hat, 2 felt beret …
You think correctly, but you forget that the death of the Dyatlovites, their search and the criminal case is a big provocation. The true causes of the group's death are hidden and classified. Everything is adjusted to the theory of "frozen by their own fault." After the group resisted the liquidators, they were killed and stripped. The clothes were picked up and taken to the tent. I think some of the clothes (especially the bloody ones) were thrown into the fire. Investigator Ivanov did not investigate what was in the extinguished fire.
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I share your thought. I am 100% convinced they did not cut their way out of the tent. There was only 3 small cuts made, the rest of the damage was by search groups.
Yes, that's it!! On February 26, when they found the tent, Sharavin cut it with an ice axe. There is a video evidence. In addition, no one had sewn up the tent, and it was flapping and tearing from the wind.
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I share your thought. I am 100% convinced they did not cut their way out of the tent. There was only 3 small cuts made, the rest of the damage was by search groups.
Yes, that's it!! On February 26, when they found the tent, Sharavin cut it with an ice axe. There is a video evidence. In addition, no one had sewn up the tent, and it was flapping and tearing from the wind.
And, it was dragged 700 meters to the helicopter landing.
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It is an interesting idea that I have not come across before -- that the hikers were killed, then their clothing was removed and carried back to the tent. What would be the point of doing this?
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It is an interesting idea that I have not come across before -- that the hikers were killed, then their clothing was removed and carried back to the tent. What would be the point of doing this?
. so that everyone thinks that the guys died through their own fault from freezing. And to hide the real crime of the party authorities (This is the version)
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Есть доказательства того, что партийные власти сфальсифицировали причину гибели группы Дятлова!
Есть официальный архивный документ, отправленный в Кремль 10 марта из Свердловского обкома и подписанный лично Кириленко А.П. О том, что группа Дятлова погибла от сильного ветра по собственной вине!
Напоминаю вам, что документ был отправлен 10 марта, когда еще не было судебного расследования и 4 трупа официально еще не были найдены!! Свердловский обком в лице Кириленко спешил доложить высшим инстанциям, что "антисоветчики" ликвидированы. И Кремль, вместо того чтобы ругать Кириленко (зачем торопиться с выводами?!), подписал этот документ, то есть принял это незаконное и преждевременное заключение.
(https://i.ibb.co/SVGqKB2/image.webp) (https://ibb.co/qmVbRpz)
(https://i.ibb.co/8YkdYkq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJtWJtm)
in english also please
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It is an interesting idea that I have not come across before -- that the hikers were killed, then their clothing was removed and carried back to the tent. What would be the point of doing this?
. so that everyone thinks that the guys died through their own fault from freezing. And to hide the real crime of the party authorities (This is the version)
Yes, but that is not very well thought-out on the killers' part, since it would set up huge red flags and make people start to investigate -- why on earth did these people leave their tent naked? Smarter to leave their clothes on, but prevent them from getting back to the tent some way, so they could freeze to death with their clothes on. Right?
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in english also please
Rewriting the entire document for translation into English is a long and difficult work. I will do it, but later, but for now I will briefly say. that this document is a report of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee to the Kremlin (the Central Committee of the CPSU) about the death of Dyatlovites from a strong wind, hurricane. Signed personally by Kirilenko. The document is archived. found and published by the newspaper "KP". The document is dated March 10, signed by the country's leadership in April.
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in english also please
Rewriting the entire document for translation into English is a long and difficult work. I will do it, but later, but for now I will briefly say. that this document is a report of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee to the Kremlin (the Central Committee of the CPSU) about the death of Dyatlovites from a strong wind, hurricane. Signed personally by Kirilenko. The document is archived. found and published by the newspaper "KP". The document is dated March 10, signed by the country's leadership in April.
You need to copy from post creation page, paste to translator, copy from translator, paste to post creation…. submit. I’ve also increased post editing to 5 minutes.
I quoted your post to preserve the text… you can copy from it.
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Smarter to leave their clothes on, but prevent them from getting back to the tent some way, so they could freeze to death with their clothes on. Right?
Turn on logical thinking. Dressed guys would not sit silently and obediently freeze. They could have killed the liquidators themselves. Most likely, the order was: "Strip and freeze." Undressed, and even with injuries, the guys died quickly.
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Autopsies concluded that not all of them died from hypothermia.
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Autopsies concluded that not all of them died from hypothermia.
Thats what anna is saying… only that it was forced
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She writes: "... so that everyone thinks that the guys died through their own fault from freezing."
*I* am saying that not all of the hikers died from hypothermia.
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She writes: "... so that everyone thinks that the guys died through their own fault from freezing."
*I* am saying that not all of the hikers died from hypothermia.
likely a translation issue? She also talks about being forced to strip down clothing etc
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She writes: "... so that everyone thinks that the guys died through their own fault from freezing."
*I* am saying that not all of the hikers died from hypothermia.
1. most likely no one died from freezing. Most of them died from traumatic brain injuries. According to my version, only Zina died from freezing. (she managed to sit on a cedar tree)
2. There is a high probability that there was a big battle near the cedar. I even admit that Zolotarev and Doroshenko could have killed two liquidators. (Nurse Salter was talking about 11 corpses)
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Autopsies concluded that not all of them died from hypothermia.
Да что там вскрытие. Там на глаз были видны - огромные кровотачащие травмы. Хороша маскировка. Если человек переломан как ...
Маскировались маскировались - да не вымаскировались. Видимо не смогли...Халтурщики...
Yes, there is an opening. There, the eyes were visible - huge bleeding injuries. Good disguise. If a person is broken like...
Disguised disguised - but not disguised. Apparently they couldn't...Hacks...
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Blatant Rule 1 violation. 100 point Warning issued.
Join us again in 10 days more respectful.
Loose}{Cannon
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I translated into English the document of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee submitted by me on March 10, 1959. The document says that a group of tourists died in the mountains of the Urals and a commission from the City Committee of Sverdlovsk was created to investigate the tragedy.
(https://i.ibb.co/RHh8hN6/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qm808kH)
Translation of the document: Strictly Secret. Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. No. B55-8.Extract from Protocol No. 55, paragraph 8. Meeting of the Bureau of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the tourists from the Ural CPSU on March 10, 1959. extracts were sent to the Central Committee of the CPSU. About the death of a group of Polytechnic Institute.
The Regional Committee of the CPSU notes that in the city of Sverdlovsk in some physical culture organizations there is no elementary order in the organization and conduct of hiking trips. Which leads to accidents. Thus, at the end of January of this year, a tourist group of the Northern Urals was sent from the Ural Polytechnic Institute without the knowledge of the directorate and public organizations of the Institute, without monitoring its movement. About the death of this group, the leadership of the Institute, party and Soviet bodies learned with great delay.
THE BUREAU OF THE REGIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE CPSU DECIDES
1. To draw the attention of the Sverdlovsk City Committee of the CPSU (Comrade Zamiryakin) to the lack of control on his part for the organization of tourist work of physical culture organizations, in particular in higher educational institutions.
2. To propose to the Sverdlovsk City Committee of the CPSU (Comrade Zamiryakin) to thoroughly investigate the causes of the death of a group of tourists of the Polytechnic Institute and to bring the perpetrators to strict party and state responsibility.
Secretary of the Regional Committee of the CPSU Kirilenko (signed)
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the following document dated March 27, 1959 was sent to the Central Committee of the CPSU. The document contains the conclusions of the commission appointed by the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee
(https://i.ibb.co/2tWLc0R/1-27.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
I translate the underlined paragraph:
As a result of the investigation conducted by the commission by the commission of the regional Committee of the CPSU (Chairman of the commission Pavlov V. A. – deputy chairman of the Regional Executive Committee). It is established that the immediate cause of death is a large hurricane. Which overtook her when approaching Mount Otorten. All the band members left the tent for some reason. Placed on the slope of a height of 1079 were scattered by a hurricane wind. They lost their bearings, failed to return to the tent and died of frost.
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conclusion: The Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU reported to Moscow that the entire group died of frost already in March 1959, when the investigation was not yet completed and the last corpses were not found. This suggests that. that the Sverdlovsk regional committee replaced the investigative authorities and falsified the cause of the death of the guys. like death from frost.
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conclusion: The Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU reported to Moscow that the entire group died of frost already in March 1959, when the investigation was not yet completed and the last corpses were not found. This suggests that. that the Sverdlovsk regional committee replaced the investigative authorities and falsified the cause of the death of the guys. like death from frost.
Or , they concluded, given the state of the first 5 bodies and no signs other 4 , that death was from the the frost/cold /environment. They expected to find the others dead from a similar fate ?
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No one believes that professional teenagers go out for a walk barefoot and half-naked. Who would believe such nonsense? Nobody believes. It's a fantasy...And in previous discussions it has been proven that the tent was cut from the inside. The youths rushed out because of an immediate threat from outside!!! One night they didn't say, "Come on guys, let's go for a walk in the woods barefoot and without outer clothes." Not even a lunatic would do that.
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Just randomly came across an article that made me think. It was about the old Pagan ways of celebrating/welcoming the returning spring. The beginning of February was often the day for any rituals and these could involve animal pelts, cut tree branches, fires, bindings, burying bear bones and on top placing spruce branches. Also, Alder tree sap would be painted over things/people, which is a reddish/orange colour.. So, could most of the things at the cedar tree be a left over from some celebration/tradition and nothing to do with the Dyatlov group at all?
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You mean, there were people celebrating down there and the hikers ended up at the same place some hours later?
I'm not sure, whether Imbolc was a feast of the Mansi. They rather seem animalistic in tradition to me. But then again, how you describe it, it seems rather animalistic than like neopagan Imbolc...
I'm pretty sure, no one else would take the way upon themself only to celebrate a ritual, though.
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No one believes that professional teenagers go out for a walk barefoot and half-naked. Who would believe such nonsense? Nobody believes. It's a fantasy...And in previous discussions it has been proven that the tent was cut from the inside. The youths rushed out because of an immediate threat from outside!!! One night they didn't say, "Come on guys, let's go for a walk in the woods barefoot and without outer clothes." Not even a lunatic would do that.
If they rushed out, why are the foot prints showing walking? wouldn't the prints be running?
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There no foot prints at the tent to show what their movement was from the tent. The foot prints are recorded Futher down the slope.
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You mean, there were people celebrating down there and the hikers ended up at the same place some hours later?
I'm not sure, whether Imbolc was a feast of the Mansi. They rather seem animalistic in tradition to me. But then again, how you describe it, it seems rather animalistic than like neopagan Imbolc...
I'm pretty sure, no one else would take the way upon themself only to celebrate a ritual, though.
Just saying there could be alternative explanations. Maybe they didn't cut the branches from the tree, or build a den or a fire etc.
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Yes and they were walking, why would anyone walk away from something so dangerous they left to freeze to death instead?
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No one believes that professional teenagers go out for a walk barefoot and half-naked. Who would believe such nonsense? Nobody believes. It's a fantasy...And in previous discussions it has been proven that the tent was cut from the inside. The youths rushed out because of an immediate threat from outside!!! One night they didn't say, "Come on guys, let's go for a walk in the woods barefoot and without outer clothes." Not even a lunatic would do that.
If they rushed out, why are the foot prints showing walking? wouldn't the prints be running?
First of all, it wasn't a large pack of bears or wolves attacking them. If it were, they should have run. But whatever was attacking just wanted to get them out of the tent. Otherwise, he could have killed them in the tent anyway. The group was not in mortal danger for the moment. And they didn't have to run. And running on a slope with cold winds can be deadly. People sweat and die from hypothermia in a short time! And it was impossible for them to run anyway, as it was dark, windy and the ground was slippery. In short, running is neither possible nor logical... These people are not ordinary people... They knew well what to do and how to behave.
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You mean, there were people celebrating down there and the hikers ended up at the same place some hours later?
I'm not sure, whether Imbolc was a feast of the Mansi. They rather seem animalistic in tradition to me. But then again, how you describe it, it seems rather animalistic than like neopagan Imbolc...
I'm pretty sure, no one else would take the way upon themself only to celebrate a ritual, though.
Just saying there could be alternative explanations. Maybe they didn't cut the branches from the tree, or build a den or a fire etc.
It's definitely worth thinking about. I, too, believe, that we take too much for granted by now.
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Is it a fact or supposition that a patched tent is prone to tearing in a high wind?
If a patched tent fails in a high wind, is it fact or supposition that closing the edges would be difficult in sub zero weather with needle and thread.?
If a needle and thread repair were attempted in an arctic hurricane, is it fact or supposition that a gloved hand can not do the repair?
If a tent failed in an arctic hurricane, is it fact or supposition that a lit suspended stove can not be made to work?
If a stove can not be made to work is it fact or supposition that a fire could be made in the shelter of the,edge of a forest?
Is it fact or supposition that wind scouring has no perceptible effect of whether the footprints are determined to be going toward or away from the wind?
Asking for a friend, dance1
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As of now, my tent didn't show any signs that the patched areas are more prone to damage as unpatched. But the areas of repair are kinda small, so that might not be that much of a prove...
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Missi, you took action. Appreciated.
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Oh, well, I might add, it's not exactly the same type of tent. But then again, theirs was specially manufactured. And mine is a modern produced medieval style geteld-tent. It's called "Sachsenzelt" here.
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First of all, it wasn't a large pack of bears or wolves attacking them. If it were, they should have run.
Never run from a bear. It's natural instinct, it will chase you. In fact it's best to not move at all, just play dead.
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First of all, it wasn't a large pack of bears or wolves attacking them. If it were, they should have run.
Never run from a bear. It's natural instinct, it will chase you.
Manti is exactly right here. For that matter, don't run from a pack of wolves, either, for basically the same reason: don't behave like prey. Wolves are usually not interested in confrontations with humans, though.
In fact it's best to not move at all, just play dead.
I have heard that advice, but I have heard other advice about bears, too. Part of the reason for that, I suspect, is that in North America, we live with two different species of bear. One is the brown bear, Ursus arctos (of which the "grizzly bear" is a subspecies), which also lives in northern Eurasia. The other is the American black bear, Ursus americanus. The two species differ in behavior, and therefore present different threat profiles to humans. However, their ranges overlap to some extent, and a non-expert may have difficulty distinguishing between U. arctos and U. americanus, especially under stress: "brown bears" are not necessarily brown, nor are "black bears" necessarily black. So, I think we Americans and Canadians often get "generic" advice that is sensible to follow if you're not sure which of the two species you've encountered.
As for me, I've only ever had to deal with black bears, in various regions of Appalachia. I could say more if anyone's curious, but I won't for now, as it's off-topic...we can be very sure that there were no American black bears in the Northern Urals in 1959 grin1
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It is is a fact no prints of predatory quadrapeds were recorded at the site of the tragedy. It is an assumption that if they were there, trace evidence would be preserved. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but for me, it is not about bears. I favor a failed tent in a blizzard compelling hikers to find warmth and shelter where they could. It is a fact that in a blizzard visibility is reduced. My assumption is that had no choice but to leave the tent. It is my assumption they underestimated the distance to the woods.
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First of all, it wasn't a large pack of bears or wolves attacking them. If it were, they should have run.
Never run from a bear. It's natural instinct, it will chase you. In fact it's best to not move at all, just play dead.
Avoiding the bear is only valid if you are the only one.... Because there is only one person to chase and that is you!!! But if you are 9 people, it is very likely that you will escape by escaping... Of course, men would not want to leave women alone with the bear. And they would attack the bear with their axes and knives. And they would probably miss the bear. But there was neither a struggle nor any signs of escape in the tent. So there was no bear or any animal. The probability of being human is also one in a million.. It's not even possible for me... The only option left is "Unknown compelling Force!!!"
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Yes, one need not to be faster than a bear, only faster than the next guy. lol2
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Yes, one need not to be faster than a bear, only faster than the next guy. lol2
That's exactly, what I wanted to say, too. lol4
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Then watch out for the bear, Manti! lol2
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1. That all chest fractures occurred before death.
Unless the pathologist took samples of every single fracture point this cannot be known with any certainty, only for those he took histological samples which then showed microscopic cellular activity indicating the healing process had already begun (which happens near immediately but takes 3 weeks to be big enough to be seen on x-rays).
Perfectly possible that some fractures occurred after death, which would also help explain the lack of bruising, caused for example by deer, the males weighing up to 45 stone, walking across the bodies on the floor of the ravine when there to drink, perhaps when the bodies were partly covered with snow.
2. The Mansi males were all ill at home, apart from an ageing Friar Tuck, so cannot be involved.
This may be the truth but it always sounded to me like a convenient alibi for the others, one the women will automatically verify, while inferring that one portly older male could not pursue and overwhelm 9 hikers, even if he was armed. I don't think the Mansi harmed the hikers, but I think it possible they found the tent and bodies and then, fearing the blame, played it as though they were never there. As such they may have confused the mystery by overwriting the scene of the hikers deaths.
This then explains the torch on the tent and how 1950s zinc oxide batteries miraculously lit it after what would otherwise have been 3 weeks exposed to the elements, the diaries all inside one rucksack (a patriarchal/cultural thing, they probably didn't understand the girls wouldn't want to have, or be permitted not to have their diaries in a communal library), the downhill footprints if made by shod feet (9 being a Mansi hunting party number, as 9 once froze on Otorten, and they would not ski down 1079 as the snow cover then exposed too many rocks), the 'Mansi belt' by the cedar, the Mansi material towards the den, and the turning of some bodies after death.
Assuming the Mansi could read the diaries they may have placed one older Mansi out there, resistant to interrogation, after reading how the hikers were following in a deerhunters recent tracks, singular or plural perhaps unclear.
3. The hikers had been fighting, suggesting that unless they fought among themselves a third party was present.
This web site, when I last checked, suggested in red that injuries to the metacarpal joints are typical of fighting. In close-up Igor Dyatlov and Rustem Slobodin's hands, their leading hand knuckles, do not have any broken skin or notable swelling, and the pathologist did not suggest they had been fighting, he merely recorded an observation of some reddened areas. Erythema is common to the knuckles. Indeed Igor's brother had it to his right hand's lower knuckles in a UPI classroom photo. I doubt the diminutive Dyatlov brothers were known to be a bunch of scrappers.
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Regarding idea 3.
Diaries do record some attitudinal problems within the group. It seems that the females were the most vocal in regard to provocation. I am reminded that those who smoked promised to swear off cigarettes during the trek. This in itself is a concern. We recall that the trail for the two days prior to the hikers demise was difficult and uphill. We should not discount fatigue and differences in stamina affecting group cohesion. Too, there was an incident on the train regarding the stealing of vodka from a drunk. I understand that the tourists could not get vodka initially, but it was found and consumed by the rescue party. So, we have alcohol, tobacco, high altitude, modified plans, broken romance and close quarters. I could support the old saw about fish and guests stinking after 3 days. Would it be enough for otherwise sane people to go to extremes? Is having a time out extreme? No. Is a fistfight over trust issues? Yes.
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1. That all chest fractures occurred before death.
Perfectly possible that some fractures occurred after death, which would also help explain the lack of bruising, caused for example by deer, the males weighing up to 45 stone, walking across the bodies on the floor of the ravine when there to drink, perhaps when the bodies were partly covered with snow.
eurocentric -- This is a very interesting post.
Mansi
The Mansi finding the bodies first, but backing away and not wanting to be involved, makes good sense; the area around the cedar was said to be one of their resting places when hunting, so it is plausible that they found the two Yuris in that location.
Fractures
According to the autopsy, Lyuda's death was due to "hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding." It's my understanding that one of her ribs, upon fracturing hard, was actually pushed into her heart, causing her death within a matter of minutes. So I think it was established that at least her fractures occurred pre-mortem.
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I think it was established that at least her fractures occurred pre-mortem.
Sorry, I disagree. Read the forensic examination of Luda's internal organs, there are continuous hemorrhages, and even with tissue impregnation. It turns out that the injuries were sustained during life.
"the pleural cavities contained up to one and a half liters of liquid dark blood. The pericardial sac contained up to 20 cm3 of yellowish transparent liquid. The size of the heart is 12 x 4 x 5. In the area of the right ventricle, an irregular oval hemorrhage measuring 4 x 4 cm with diffuse impregnation of the right ventricular muscle. The thickness of the left ventricular muscle is 1.4 cm. The right ventricle is 0.5 cm .. The right and left halves of the heart contained up to 50 cm of liquid dark blood...."
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amashilu
Yes, I agree! I'm confused with the translation. I wanted to say that the injuries and fractures were received before death... That is, during his lifetime.
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1. That all chest fractures occurred before death.
Perfectly possible that some fractures occurred after death, which would also help explain the lack of bruising, caused for example by deer, the males weighing up to 45 stone, walking across the bodies on the floor of the ravine when there to drink, perhaps when the bodies were partly covered with snow.
eurocentric -- This is a very interesting post.
Mansi
The Mansi finding the bodies first, but backing away and not wanting to be involved, makes good sense; the area around the cedar was said to be one of their resting places when hunting, so it is plausible that they found the two Yuris in that location.
Fractures
According to the autopsy, Lyuda's death was due to "hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding." It's my understanding that one of her ribs, upon fracturing hard, was actually pushed into her heart, causing her death within a matter of minutes. So I think it was established that at least her fractures occurred pre-mortem.
I'm not challenging the cause of death, only saying that we cannot know that all fractures occurred before death, only the ones which were tested. And any rib found penetrating the lining of the heart or lungs across Lyuda and Semyon's chests would be tested as it would be vital to know if that happened during life.
But across their chests, Lyuda also with single left-side bilateral fractures, there was probably around 24 separate rib fractures, so 48 mating surfaces to heal. Unless all 24 sites were individually tested nobody can say with 100% certainty that they all happened before death. It becomes an assumption.
Some fractures may have originally been closed fractures, the rib fractured in life and healing initiated and the bone remaining in place, and then the weight of animals visiting the stream opened the fracture, separating it after death.
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Regarding idea 3.
Diaries do record some attitudinal problems within the group. It seems that the females were the most vocal in regard to provocation. I am reminded that those who smoked promised to swear off cigarettes during the trek. This in itself is a concern. We recall that the trail for the two days prior to the hikers demise was difficult and uphill. We should not discount fatigue and differences in stamina affecting group cohesion. Too, there was an incident on the train regarding the stealing of vodka from a drunk. I understand that the tourists could not get vodka initially, but it was found and consumed by the rescue party. So, we have alcohol, tobacco, high altitude, modified plans, broken romance and close quarters. I could support the old saw about fish and guests stinking after 3 days. Would it be enough for otherwise sane people to go to extremes? Is having a time out extreme? No. Is a fistfight over trust issues? Yes.
There was certainly enough petty squabbles in the diaries to suggest such conflict, and I do agree that it's possible the 'drunken' (euphoric) photo's may be explained by rebel Krivo stealing that bottle of vodka on the train so it was never officially part of their inventory, although they were tested for alcohol at autopsy and found negative.
But to me the biggest potential flashpoint, viewing things as only an amateur psychologist, would be between Igor and Semyon.
To psyche profile Igor Dyatlov, he would revel in playing teacher on these hikes, he had more experience than other students, and they'd look up to him and be his subordinates which would feed his 'little man' ego. He lived hiking, the freedom of the outdoors, but leadership would be part of the buzz for him. Then along comes a man who was a teacher, in varying postwar physical education roles, and he had vastly more outdoor experience during his war years, and he might undermine and question anything Igor did which he thought unwise.
Most of the others already knew each other, some hung out together at the UPI, and most had shared hikes before.
From photographic evidence I suspect that Igor's mood collapsed, demoralised, when Yuri Yudin left. Yudin, the sunshine boy, seemed very engaging, was of the same height, and they'd hiked before. Yudin's kneeling on the front left, Igor handstanding on the left in this photo and (quite literally) apex socialiser Tibo is on top.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-10.jpg
Notably Igor's only smiling photo's on the DPI hike are when next to/interacting with Yudin, where he grins tooth happy gap-ily. Not even his pal Rustem could get a smile out of him afterwards in the hike's only solo portrait.
Everything was going from bad-to-worse for Mr Dyatlov, the departure of an ally, and this older teacher attaching himself to his hike. I thought his last diary entry sounded depressed, like he imagined they were at the end of the world.
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Eurocentric, you have backed up your speculations with evidence and that is good. Certainly, in a remote location with inclement weather, a second rate tent, with no cigarettes, a swiped bottle of vodka and women, there could well be a challenge for leadership. The map Igor had was not precise. The route was changed at the cache. The arrangement of the bodies in the forest are suggestive of decisions made by committee, not top down.
We can't know the truth because Zolo never wrote his final thoughts. For that matter, none did! That in itself is mysterious.
This gets down to a dichotomy. Were the hikers chased or were they led? Conspiracy buffs like the former, while natural calamity buffs prefer the latter. I like the latter. I also like the footprint trail from camp.