April 16, 2024, 03:56:42 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Assumptions and facts  (Read 10295 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

January 27, 2023, 05:17:00 AM
Reply #60
Offline

GlennM


Then watch out for the bear, Manti! lol2
 

February 03, 2023, 06:25:12 AM
Reply #61
Offline

eurocentric


1. That all chest fractures occurred before death.

Unless the pathologist took samples of every single fracture point this cannot be known with any certainty, only for those he took histological samples which then showed microscopic cellular activity indicating the healing process had already begun (which happens near immediately but takes 3 weeks to be big enough to be seen on x-rays).

Perfectly possible that some fractures occurred after death, which would also help explain the lack of bruising, caused for example by deer, the males weighing up to 45 stone, walking across the bodies on the floor of the ravine when there to drink, perhaps when the bodies were partly covered with snow.

2. The Mansi males were all ill at home, apart from an ageing Friar Tuck, so cannot be involved.

This may be the truth but it always sounded to me like a convenient alibi for the others, one the women will automatically verify, while inferring that one portly older male could not pursue and overwhelm 9 hikers, even if he was armed. I don't think the Mansi harmed the hikers, but I think it possible they found the tent and bodies and then, fearing the blame, played it as though they were never there. As such they may have confused the mystery by overwriting the scene of the hikers deaths.

This then explains the torch on the tent and how 1950s zinc oxide batteries miraculously lit it after what would otherwise have been 3 weeks exposed to the elements, the diaries all inside one rucksack (a patriarchal/cultural thing, they probably didn't understand the girls wouldn't want to have, or be permitted not to have their diaries in a communal library), the downhill footprints if made by shod feet (9 being a Mansi hunting party number, as 9 once froze on Otorten, and they would not ski down 1079 as the snow cover then exposed too many rocks), the 'Mansi belt' by the cedar, the Mansi material towards the den, and the turning of some bodies after death.

Assuming the Mansi could read the diaries they may have placed one older Mansi out there, resistant to interrogation, after reading how the hikers were following in a deerhunters recent tracks, singular or plural perhaps unclear.

3. The hikers had been fighting, suggesting that unless they fought among themselves a third party was present.


This web site, when I last checked, suggested in red that injuries to the metacarpal joints are typical of fighting. In close-up Igor Dyatlov and Rustem Slobodin's hands, their leading hand knuckles, do not have any broken skin or notable swelling, and the pathologist did not suggest they had been fighting, he merely recorded an observation of some reddened areas. Erythema is common to the knuckles. Indeed Igor's brother had it to his right hand's lower knuckles in a UPI classroom photo. I doubt the diminutive Dyatlov brothers were known to be a bunch of scrappers.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
The following users thanked this post: marieuk, Ziljoe, ilahiyol

February 03, 2023, 06:52:00 AM
Reply #62
Offline

GlennM


Regarding idea 3.
Diaries do record some attitudinal problems within the group. It seems that the females were the most vocal in regard to provocation. I am reminded that those who smoked promised to swear off cigarettes during the trek. This in itself is a concern. We recall that the trail for the two days prior to the hikers demise was difficult and uphill. We should not discount fatigue and differences in stamina affecting group cohesion. Too, there was an incident on the train regarding the stealing of vodka from a drunk. I understand that the tourists could not get vodka initially, but it was found and consumed by the rescue party. So, we have alcohol, tobacco, high altitude, modified plans, broken romance and close quarters. I could support the old saw about fish and guests stinking after 3 days. Would it be enough for otherwise sane people to go to extremes? Is having a time out extreme? No. Is a fistfight over trust issues? Yes.
 

February 03, 2023, 09:52:28 AM
Reply #63
Online

amashilu

Global Moderator
1. That all chest fractures occurred before death.
Perfectly possible that some fractures occurred after death, which would also help explain the lack of bruising, caused for example by deer, the males weighing up to 45 stone, walking across the bodies on the floor of the ravine when there to drink, perhaps when the bodies were partly covered with snow.


eurocentric -- This is a very interesting post.

Mansi
The Mansi finding the bodies first, but backing away and not wanting to be involved, makes good sense; the area around the cedar was said to be one of their resting places when hunting, so it is plausible that they found the two Yuris in that location.

Fractures
According to the autopsy, Lyuda's death was due to "hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding." It's my understanding that one of her ribs, upon fracturing hard, was actually pushed into her heart, causing her death within a matter of minutes. So I think it was established that at least her fractures occurred pre-mortem.
 

February 03, 2023, 10:32:22 AM
Reply #64
Offline

anna_pycckux


I think it was established that at least her fractures occurred pre-mortem.
Sorry, I disagree. Read the forensic examination of Luda's internal organs, there are continuous hemorrhages, and even with tissue impregnation. It turns out that the injuries were sustained during life.
"the pleural cavities contained up to one and a half liters of liquid dark blood. The pericardial sac contained up to 20 cm3 of yellowish transparent liquid. The size of the heart is 12 x 4 x 5. In the area of the right ventricle, an irregular oval hemorrhage measuring 4 x 4 cm with diffuse impregnation of the right ventricular muscle. The thickness of the left ventricular muscle is 1.4 cm. The right ventricle is 0.5 cm .. The right and left halves of the heart contained up to 50 cm of liquid dark blood...."
 

February 03, 2023, 10:36:16 AM
Reply #65
Offline

anna_pycckux


amashilu
Yes, I agree! I'm confused with the translation. I wanted to say that the injuries and fractures were received before death... That is, during his lifetime.
 

February 04, 2023, 02:20:40 AM
Reply #66
Offline

eurocentric


1. That all chest fractures occurred before death.
Perfectly possible that some fractures occurred after death, which would also help explain the lack of bruising, caused for example by deer, the males weighing up to 45 stone, walking across the bodies on the floor of the ravine when there to drink, perhaps when the bodies were partly covered with snow.


eurocentric -- This is a very interesting post.

Mansi
The Mansi finding the bodies first, but backing away and not wanting to be involved, makes good sense; the area around the cedar was said to be one of their resting places when hunting, so it is plausible that they found the two Yuris in that location.

Fractures
According to the autopsy, Lyuda's death was due to "hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding." It's my understanding that one of her ribs, upon fracturing hard, was actually pushed into her heart, causing her death within a matter of minutes. So I think it was established that at least her fractures occurred pre-mortem.


I'm not challenging the cause of death, only saying that we cannot know that all fractures occurred before death, only the ones which were tested. And any rib found penetrating the lining of the heart or lungs across Lyuda and Semyon's chests would be tested as it would be vital to know if that happened during life.
 
But across their chests, Lyuda also with single left-side bilateral fractures, there was probably around 24 separate rib fractures, so 48 mating surfaces to heal. Unless all 24 sites were individually tested nobody can say with 100% certainty that they all happened before death. It becomes an assumption.

Some fractures may have originally been closed fractures, the rib fractured in life and healing initiated and the bone remaining in place, and then the weight of animals visiting the stream opened the fracture, separating it after death.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 04, 2023, 02:36:51 AM
Reply #67
Offline

eurocentric


Regarding idea 3.
Diaries do record some attitudinal problems within the group. It seems that the females were the most vocal in regard to provocation. I am reminded that those who smoked promised to swear off cigarettes during the trek. This in itself is a concern. We recall that the trail for the two days prior to the hikers demise was difficult and uphill. We should not discount fatigue and differences in stamina affecting group cohesion. Too, there was an incident on the train regarding the stealing of vodka from a drunk. I understand that the tourists could not get vodka initially, but it was found and consumed by the rescue party. So, we have alcohol, tobacco, high altitude, modified plans, broken romance and close quarters. I could support the old saw about fish and guests stinking after 3 days. Would it be enough for otherwise sane people to go to extremes? Is having a time out extreme? No. Is a fistfight over trust issues? Yes.


There was certainly enough petty squabbles in the diaries to suggest such conflict, and I do agree that it's possible the 'drunken' (euphoric) photo's may be explained by rebel Krivo stealing that bottle of vodka on the train so it was never officially part of their inventory, although they were tested for alcohol at autopsy and found negative.

But to me the biggest potential flashpoint, viewing things as only an amateur psychologist, would be between Igor and Semyon.

To psyche profile Igor Dyatlov, he would revel in playing teacher on these hikes, he had more experience than other students, and they'd look up to him and be his subordinates which would feed his 'little man' ego. He lived hiking, the freedom of the outdoors, but leadership would be part of the buzz for him. Then along comes a man who was a teacher, in varying postwar physical education roles, and he had vastly more outdoor experience during his war years, and he might undermine and question anything Igor did which he thought unwise.

Most of the others already knew each other, some hung out together at the UPI, and most had shared hikes before.

From photographic evidence I suspect that Igor's mood collapsed, demoralised, when Yuri Yudin left. Yudin, the sunshine boy, seemed very engaging, was of the same height, and they'd hiked before. Yudin's kneeling on the front left, Igor handstanding on the left in this photo and (quite literally) apex socialiser Tibo is on top.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-10.jpg

Notably Igor's only smiling photo's on the DPI hike are when next to/interacting with Yudin, where he grins tooth happy gap-ily. Not even his pal Rustem could get a smile out of him afterwards in the hike's only solo portrait.

Everything was going from bad-to-worse for Mr Dyatlov, the departure of an ally, and this older teacher attaching himself to his hike. I thought his last diary entry sounded depressed, like he imagined they were at the end of the world.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
The following users thanked this post: GlennM

February 04, 2023, 08:32:56 AM
Reply #68
Offline

GlennM


Eurocentric, you have backed up your speculations with evidence and that is good. Certainly, in a remote location with inclement weather, a second rate tent, with no cigarettes, a swiped bottle of vodka and women, there could well be a challenge for leadership. The map Igor had was not precise. The route was changed at the cache. The arrangement of the bodies in the forest are suggestive of decisions made by committee, not top down.

We can't know the truth because Zolo never wrote his final thoughts. For that matter, none did! That in itself is mysterious.

This gets down to a dichotomy. Were the hikers chased or were they led? Conspiracy buffs like the former, while natural calamity buffs prefer the latter. I like the latter. I also like the footprint trail from camp.