Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: tenne on March 01, 2021, 05:12:12 PM
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I was thinking about how they were dressed, when found, and wondering just how cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit? Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat? Do you think that 9 people would be sitting around the tent like that before whatever happened? If they were already in bed, I would assume they wouldn't have a really sharp knife handy and could easily grab their bedding as they ran
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cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit?
Same as outside, max. +5C difference but even that is stretching it. It was a single-layer canvas tent with button/knob closure that leaves gaps, a hole for the stove chimney, possibly other tears, possibly no floor so there would be a gap...
Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat?
Doubtful, although some had multiple layers on. But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.
I would assume they ... could easily grab their bedding as they ran
Or their boots. Or their coats... Or the tools they had lying around
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I was thinking about how they were dressed, when found, and wondering just how cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit? Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat? Do you think that 9 people would be sitting around the tent like that before whatever happened? If they were already in bed, I would assume they wouldn't have a really sharp knife handy and could easily grab their bedding as they ran
The tent will be 10-20 degrees warm from the outside. They just take off their outermost clothes and shoes. If the stove is burned, they can stay in light clothing. In short, two Yurid were dressed because we know that the stove was not burning. But they should be the least dressed. I think the incident must have happened after a short while into the tent. Because Semyon and Tibo haven't taken off their shoes yet. And when the unknown coercive force was seen from a distance, everyone must have begun to look at it. And they must be trying to take pictures. They were not dressed. Because they did not anticipate that the "unknown coercive force" would attack them directly. During the attack, they had to leave the tent without getting dressed.
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Google tells me that a properly constructed snow cave can have a temp inside of 0C when the outside temp is -40C. So if you pile enough snow on the tent you turn it into a cave, someone inside pushing out whilst others outside push in? The flashlight was sitting on top of 10cm of snow? Got to watch the ventilation though.
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yes, snow forts are very warm, that is why they were used by the Inuit for centuries. this wasn't that warm as far I can tell. I don't think it would have been comfortable enough to sit around in the light clothing they were wearing. Which fits with my theory that the tent being set up there was part of the cover up.
IMO, to be dressed like that, they were in a warm building, or warmer than the tent for sure. the two men were dressed because they went outside for a smoke? talk? see something but I just can't see the rest of them comfortably sitting around with no stove in the tent, on a slope.
Which reminds me of another thing, the supposed last photo of the group pitching their tent on the mountain is supposed to show them digging a wall of snow to level the tent off. where is all that snow?
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But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.
Manti, I used to disagree with you on that point, but now, I think you're right. A plain canvas tent, pitched on an exposed hillside, in the Siberian winter, no sleeping bags, and no heat source? I don't think so! Having looked again at the photos from the 1958 expedition to the Subpolar Urals, I notice that they did deploy the stove even when camped above the treeline (you can see its chimney protruding from the tent).
So, yeah, if the Dyatlov group really did intentionally camp on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, then I now think they were planning to use the stove. I think they'd try to do a "cold night" only if they had no other choice.
But, when the search party found the tent, the stove wasn't set up. One possibility is that the Dyatlovites camped on the hillside, and for whatever reason abandoned their campsite before setting up the stove. Another possibility is that the Dyatlov hikers never actually camped where their tent was found, and that the campsite on Kholat Syakhl, as found by the search party, was staged.
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But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.
Manti, I used to disagree with you on that point, but now, I think you're right. A plain canvas tent, pitched on an exposed hillside, in the Siberian winter, no sleeping bags, and no heat source? I don't think so! Having looked again at the photos from the 1958 expedition to the Subpolar Urals, I notice that they did deploy the stove even when camped above the treeline (you can see its chimney protruding from the tent).
So, yeah, if the Dyatlov group really did intentionally camp on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, then I now think they were planning to use the stove. I think they'd try to do a "cold night" only if they had no other choice.
But, when the search party found the tent, the stove wasn't set up. One possibility is that the Dyatlovites camped on the hillside, and for whatever reason abandoned their campsite before setting up the stove. Another possibility is that the Dyatlov hikers never actually camped where their tent was found, and that the campsite on Kholat Syakhl, as found by the search party, was staged.
Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together? I assume it had hooks to be hung after the tent was up but I don't think I've ever seen the process explained. (With higher tents, you want to affix anything to the ridge before the ridge is in the air, but this tent did not stand so tall so I assume it didn't matter. However, if for whatever reason there was no way to install the stove after the tent was up, that would indicate they either did not plan to use it or the tent was staged...)
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We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).
So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.
- The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
- There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
- They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
- They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.
You couldn't make it a safer exercise?
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Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?
Good question. I don't know.
We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).
Nigel, what is the source of the information about the high-profile and low-profile configurations of the tent? My understanding is that the high-profile setup is used when sheltered from the wind by trees, and allows for use of the stove, whereas the low-profile setup is necessary when exposed to the wind, and does not allow for use of the stove. But, what is the source for that information?
So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.
- The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
- There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
- They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
- They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.
You couldn't make it a safer exercise?
Interesting idea, and consistent with what some of the searchers said about Dyatlov wanting to practice camping above the treeline. However, as I already said upthread, I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest. But, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose for a moment they did deliberately camp where the search party found their tent, and did so for the purpose of an endurance exercise as you describe. Was their choice of campsite and choice to do a "cold night" a "but-for" cause of their deaths, or was it merely a contributing factor, or was it irrelevant to the DPI?
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I was thinking about how they were dressed, when found, and wondering just how cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit? Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat? Do you think that 9 people would be sitting around the tent like that before whatever happened? If they were already in bed, I would assume they wouldn't have a really sharp knife handy and could easily grab their bedding as they ran
Well we wont know exactly what the temperature was unless it was written down somewhere. But you can bet your bottom Dollar that it would have been colder in the Tent on the exposed Ridge than near the shelter of the Forest.
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Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?
Good question. I don't know.
We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).
Nigel, what is the source of the information about the high-profile and low-profile configurations of the tent? My understanding is that the high-profile setup is used when sheltered from the wind by trees, and allows for use of the stove, whereas the low-profile setup is necessary when exposed to the wind, and does not allow for use of the stove. But, what is the source for that information? Good question, don't know is the easy answer.
So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.
- The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
- There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
- They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
- They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.
You couldn't make it a safer exercise?
Interesting idea, and consistent with what some of the searchers said about Dyatlov wanting to practice camping above the treeline. However, as I already said upthread, I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest. I'd challenge that opinion, they mention in the diary how slow it was in the forest and to get to Ortorten they have to cross several tributaries (ravines) which could create other challenges, so you can see the attraction of quickly skiing across open ground scoured of deep snow by the wind. But, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose for a moment they did deliberately camp where the search party found their tent, and did so for the purpose of an endurance exercise as you describe. Was their choice of campsite and choice to do a "cold night" a "but-for" cause of their deaths, or was it merely a contributing factor, or was it irrelevant to the DPI? Fleeing half dressed without shoes would have been a "big problem" if they had camped in the forest? Irrelevant imo.
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I like Clark Wilkins' theory that the stove had been used, and was disassembled and still warm, sat on the floor at the front of the tent; and may even have been the cause of the tent evacuation. It doesn't make sense lugging it up the mountain and not using it.
However one thing I'm puzzled about it is the wood supply. How many nights would they be camping above the tree line, and how much would they need to bring with them? They might have been planning to save it for the next stop on Otorten, but the blizzard changed their minds.
We know there was no wood at the tent (apart from one log), but it could have been used already. They could have packed the stove with wood at the labaz. They could even have brought more wood, and taken it down the slope with them if the priority was to make a fire (dropping one log on the way out).
The stove being used fits with them only being lightly clothed, apart from Zolotaryov and Kolya who were probably outside. There was a cup of cocoa and some sliced meat nearby, they couldn't cook but maybe they could warm things up next to it. There's also the assembly record mentioned in Evening Otorten.
The small horizontal cuts at the top of the tent could have been made to ventilate fumes from the stove, the guy-lines were untied, and the tent was collapsed with snow possibly thrown on top. This may indicate the stove went out of control.
The question though is would they have been better off with multiple layers of clothing and sleeping bags? A home-made stove could be a dangerous liability in those winds. It's the most obvious thing in the tent to go wrong with lethal consequences.
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Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?
Good question. I don't know.
We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).
Nigel, what is the source of the information about the high-profile and low-profile configurations of the tent? My understanding is that the high-profile setup is used when sheltered from the wind by trees, and allows for use of the stove, whereas the low-profile setup is necessary when exposed to the wind, and does not allow for use of the stove. But, what is the source for that information? Good question, don't know is the easy answer.
So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.
- The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
- There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
- They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
- They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.
You couldn't make it a safer exercise?
Interesting idea, and consistent with what some of the searchers said about Dyatlov wanting to practice camping above the treeline. However, as I already said upthread, I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest. I'd challenge that opinion, they mention in the diary how slow it was in the forest and to get to Ortorten they have to cross several tributaries (ravines) which could create other challenges, so you can see the attraction of quickly skiing across open ground scoured of deep snow by the wind. But, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose for a moment they did deliberately camp where the search party found their tent, and did so for the purpose of an endurance exercise as you describe. Was their choice of campsite and choice to do a "cold night" a "but-for" cause of their deaths, or was it merely a contributing factor, or was it irrelevant to the DPI? Fleeing half dressed without shoes would have been a "big problem" if they had camped in the forest? Irrelevant imo.
OK, I see your point about how they would make better time above the treeline. Let me clarify my remark: I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest, if it is indeed true that camping on the hillside would necessarily preclude use of the stove due to the need to pitch the tent "low-profile". Now, it seems you and I have the same understanding of the two "modes" of the tent, but neither of us can cite a reliable source for that information. I'm beginning to question whether our understanding is accurate. If the Dyatlov Nine actually could have used the stove when camped on the slope, then choosing to camp there makes more sense.
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@RMK - my guess is that the low mode does not prevent using the stove, it prevents sleeping under the stove. So for this location the stove is a last resort. The camera on tripod is part of this question, it makes sense that the stove's vent through the tent was used by the camera yes? So photography and using the stove are exclusive, one or the other not both.
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@RMK - my guess is that the low mode does not prevent using the stove, it prevents sleeping under the stove.
Aha! Perhaps so.
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@RMK - my guess is that the low mode does not prevent using the stove, it prevents sleeping under the stove. So for this location the stove is a last resort. The camera on tripod is part of this question, it makes sense that the stove's vent through the tent was used by the camera yes? So photography and using the stove are exclusive, one or the other not both.
This absolutely makes sense and would explain why either the stove had not been set up (they may still have intended to,) or why it would be taken down if they did start using it. I might even go so far as to wonder if they tried taking pictures through the cuts first but realized the vent would be the best option. I suppose it depends on whether they intended to take pictures or some sudden event prompted it.
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We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).
So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.
- The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
- There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
- They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
- They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.
You couldn't make it a safer exercise?
I thought of this perhaps a couple years ago, or that it was a kind of punishment for not sewing the tent properly (as we read in the diaries), but now I'm wondering if it was an experiment or punishment, and the idea was to get the stove going some time during the night. The problem that they may not have predicted is that the tent would ice up, to the point that it looked like it would collapse into shreds and everything would get blown all over the mountainside. So, in this scenario, Igor may have been waiting to wake them (if any could get to sleep being so cold), in order to help out with the stove, but then they saw how bad the tent was and had to focus on that. Perhaps the idea was to have some work on the tent while others worked on the stove, but it soon became clear they couldn't deal with the tent under the conditions that existed, and believed that securing the tent was the priority. Still, if this is accurate, they had to believe that they could survive the night away from the tent, even though they were unfamiliar with the area, which is of course not a good idea. To me the most interesting thing now is the hope that someone will try to do a realistic recreation/reconstruction of that night.
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Here are a bunch of videos of people spending the night in very cold weather in a tent without a stove:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI0ef5lch3A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26BloVh702Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sNzM7OboTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTF2GRN_W44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7p_MqZLIEE
And, of course,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbZjcKl3Z6o
This video shows that it is absolutely possible to survive a night on Kholat Syakhl in a tent without a stove. 9 People in a canvas tent would be warm enough without a stove.
Whenever this case is brought up there's this misconception that everyone was sleeping in underwear which isn't true. All of them (minus Yuri D. and Yurk K. who had clothing removed after death) had on multiple layers of clothing - Zina, for example, had on 5 bottom layers. Rustem had on 4 upper layers. This is normally what would be worn. The only thing that you could argue was odd was not wearing their valenki. Most of them had on multiple socks which, more than likely, kept them warm enough. It's possible that they had them off to dry and planned on putting them on later.
Here is what they were wearing (note that Yuri K. and Yuri D. had clothing removed so, we'll never know exactly what they were wearing in the tent) https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?lid=1 (https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?lid=1)
There is nothing odd about the way they were dressed in the tent. There is nothing odd about them not using the stove. They all probably thought that it would be a cold windy night, but that it would be warm enough.
A few years back my son went on a winter overnighter with the scouts. Nylon tent, no stove, he slept in socks. The temp outside got down to -5 F. He stayed warm other than his feet, which he said got really cold.
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
Right, you have to try and recreate the exact conditions, which also includes two old army tents of that same type, sewn together, and coming apart at the seams during much better weather conditions. Here are two quotes from the book, "Off the Wall" (which may have relevance to the DPI):
Late during that Tuesday morning Ranger James Holcomb, still alone, finally found the elusive tent. It had collapsed and had been partly snowed under. This explains his difficulty in finding it. As Holcomb neared it, he next saw that the door of the flattened tent lay open. Klingenberg, hatless, lay sprawled within this opening. Eclipsing any hope that Holcomb had arrived in the nick of time, snow now covered the prone man’s lower body. The autopsy revealed Klingenberg had died of “cold and exposure” a day earlier, on Monday morning.
Because of Lyman’s decision to travel light, he had left himself vulnerable to the mind-sapping effects of hypothermia on that ledge where he had dumped his clothing in a wet, soon-to-be-frozen, heap.
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
Right, you have to try and recreate the exact conditions, which also includes two old army tents of that same type, sewn together, and coming apart at the seams during much better weather conditions. Here are two quotes from the book, "Off the Wall" (which may have relevance to the DPI):
Late during that Tuesday morning Ranger James Holcomb, still alone, finally found the elusive tent. It had collapsed and had been partly snowed under. This explains his difficulty in finding it. As Holcomb neared it, he next saw that the door of the flattened tent lay open. Klingenberg, hatless, lay sprawled within this opening. Eclipsing any hope that Holcomb had arrived in the nick of time, snow now covered the prone man’s lower body. The autopsy revealed Klingenberg had died of “cold and exposure” a day earlier, on Monday morning.
Because of Lyman’s decision to travel light, he had left himself vulnerable to the mind-sapping effects of hypothermia on that ledge where he had dumped his clothing in a wet, soon-to-be-frozen, heap.
This quote seems familiar to me. Have you posted about it before? Sometimes I forget what I've read where, lol.
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.
I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.
One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.
I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.
One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.
I get the impression that dating things was not as precise as it is say for us, now. I can readily admit that on a trail like that, it can be easy to lose track of what date it is. But judging by the number of inconsistent dates all over this incident, I wonder if it just wasn't something they worried so much about being exact? (If that makes sense?).
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While those videos are very entertaining, they do not address them camping in a 1959 tent, with 1959 clothing and no fire. We can't compare the modern materials we wear in the winter and the materials that the tents are made of now.
I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.
I have no personal experience in old tents with winter wear from that time and no fire
As for starting the fire, he said that back then they used much larger matches, we call them fireplace matches now and they were so big that they could be used as tinder for the fire so that was a possiblity
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I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.
Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
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I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.
I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.
One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.
Remember they had another 30-40km to Otorten, I don't know yet precisely what their route was but they must have been planning to camp several nights above the tree line. If the tent wasn't up to it then the expedition was doomed from the start.
I think they were unlucky with the weather, you can see the blizzard in the photos. They probably tried to compensate with the stove and it caused a problem. Watching those videos (which are fun, btw) it's fairly straightforward in normal weather, but the moment it turns you can be in real trouble.
The Evening Otorten makes sense if they used the stove for a while and disassembled it, the tent would be fairly warm.
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I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.
Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
I showed him the photos and he couldn’t see any evidence of them digging a snow cave and he isn’t the only one to say that. There is no evidence of it
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.
I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.
One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.
Very informative videos. Obviously 9 people well dressed huddled together in a Tent would provide a good amount of heat. The most interesting thing which is overlooked regarding the 'Evening Otorten' is that it was pinned or lets just say fixed to the Tent near the entrance.
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How were they well dressed in the tent? Not what I would call well dressed for those temps in a tent that had holes in it. a coat? was plugging one hole from what I've read.
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I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.
Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
I showed him the photos and he couldn’t see any evidence of them digging a snow cave and he isn’t the only one to say that. There is no evidence of it
i agree. And this is an important fact, again overlooked, like so many important facts that are overlooked for some reason, on this Forum. It appears that they set the Tent up quickly not having the time or strength to dig any foundations.
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How were they well dressed in the tent? Not what I would call well dressed for those temps in a tent that had holes in it. a coat? was plugging one hole from what I've read.
They had the usual outdoor gear for those conditions. The Tent wasnt that bad.
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All I was pointing out was the materials used in the videos is not what was available then and the one old tent, they had a fire.
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I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.
Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
I showed him the photos and he couldn’t see any evidence of them digging a snow cave and he isn’t the only one to say that. There is no evidence of it
i agree. And this is an important fact, again overlooked, like so many important facts that are overlooked for some reason, on this Forum. It appears that they set the Tent up quickly not having the time or strength to dig any foundations.
The two photos of them standing waist deep in a trench and a flashlight on 10cm of snow has become "no evidence"? Hmmm. Seems like a no brainer to me, Use the snow to insulate the sides. Use the skis and bags to insulate the floor.
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I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.
Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
I showed him the photos and he couldn’t see any evidence of them digging a snow cave and he isn’t the only one to say that. There is no evidence of it
i agree. And this is an important fact, again overlooked, like so many important facts that are overlooked for some reason, on this Forum. It appears that they set the Tent up quickly not having the time or strength to dig any foundations.
The two photos of them standing waist deep in a trench and a flashlight on 10cm of snow has become "no evidence"? Hmmm. Seems like a no brainer to me, Use the snow to insulate the sides. Use the skis and bags to insulate the floor.
Trench 1 ? I suppose it depends on ones interpretation of what a Trench is.
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They certainly dug out a level base, it was probably quite well protected on the windward side, but the entrance was exposed to the wind you can see the snow build-up on the search team photo. They hung a sheet inside to block the wind but it wouldn't be very pleasant when anyone stepped out of the tent.
I think the snow was thrown on top of the tent when they evacuated, which would mean they were standing outside in a freezing cold blizzard for several minutes, and they had to move down the slope to escape the wind.
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Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!
I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous. That is mostly owing to health and preference. I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!!
There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps. In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade. With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days. We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees. We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable. I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside. I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them?
I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.
Right, you have to try and recreate the exact conditions, which also includes two old army tents of that same type, sewn together, and coming apart at the seams during much better weather conditions. Here are two quotes from the book, "Off the Wall" (which may have relevance to the DPI):
Late during that Tuesday morning Ranger James Holcomb, still alone, finally found the elusive tent. It had collapsed and had been partly snowed under. This explains his difficulty in finding it. As Holcomb neared it, he next saw that the door of the flattened tent lay open. Klingenberg, hatless, lay sprawled within this opening. Eclipsing any hope that Holcomb had arrived in the nick of time, snow now covered the prone man’s lower body. The autopsy revealed Klingenberg had died of “cold and exposure” a day earlier, on Monday morning.
Because of Lyman’s decision to travel light, he had left himself vulnerable to the mind-sapping effects of hypothermia on that ledge where he had dumped his clothing in a wet, soon-to-be-frozen, heap.
This quote seems familiar to me. Have you posted about it before? Sometimes I forget what I've read where, lol.
I know I quoted from that book before, but not sure about the exact quotes.
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They certainly dug out a level base, it was probably quite well protected on the windward side, but the entrance was exposed to the wind you can see the snow build-up on the search team photo. They hung a sheet inside to block the wind but it wouldn't be very pleasant when anyone stepped out of the tent.
I think the snow was thrown on top of the tent when they evacuated, which would mean they were standing outside in a freezing cold blizzard for several minutes, and they had to move down the slope to escape the wind.
I thought side of the tent with the apparent cuts was facing the wind; someone claimed that it was a bad idea and that the short end, opposite the opening, was what should have been facing the wind (which seems like common sense). Otherwise, yes, the evidence suggests they decided to secure the tent (and that that was their top priority), but it's unclear what led to that decision (if it was about to collapse and they couldn't stop, then cutting themselves out and securing it certainly does not seem unreasonable). They saw a forest below, and they were correct about getting to it without difficulty, but then suriving down there was a big mistake, at least the way they went about it (and the "ravine 4" may have just been really unlucky).
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I thought side of the tent with the apparent cuts was facing the wind
The case file says "there are numerous damages, especially on the right slant of the canopy forming the roof", right side being the leeward (downwind) side, facing down the slope. There was also a large cut at the back of the tent, spotted later.
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They certainly dug out a level base, it was probably quite well protected on the windward side, but the entrance was exposed to the wind you can see the snow build-up on the search team photo. They hung a sheet inside to block the wind but it wouldn't be very pleasant when anyone stepped out of the tent.
I think the snow was thrown on top of the tent when they evacuated, which would mean they were standing outside in a freezing cold blizzard for several minutes, and they had to move down the slope to escape the wind.
I thought side of the tent with the apparent cuts was facing the wind; someone claimed that it was a bad idea and that the short end, opposite the opening, was what should have been facing the wind (which seems like common sense). Otherwise, yes, the evidence suggests they decided to secure the tent (and that that was their top priority), but it's unclear what led to that decision (if it was about to collapse and they couldn't stop, then cutting themselves out and securing it certainly does not seem unreasonable). They saw a forest below, and they were correct about getting to it without difficulty, but then suriving down there was a big mistake, at least the way they went about it (and the "ravine 4" may have just been really unlucky).
There were rips found on both the leeward and windward side of the tent. However, the 3 large documented cuts were found on the leeward side of the tent.
This is what M. Sharavin stated regarding the cut (at the time he only presumed one cut):
"The cut was on the leeward side, and so it fell, as it were, on the holes..."
He also commented that there were signs of multiple attempts to cut the tent from the inside that were unsuccessful.
Although (I think) this is the only comment made regarding which side of the tent had the cuts, the drawing in the case files also eludes to this. It also states "In the camping tent of Dyatlov group on the right slant of the canopy forming the roof, three damages of approximately 32, 89, and 42 cm in length /conditionally numbered 1, 2, 3 / are made with some sharp weapon /knife/ i.e. are cuts." If looking from the front, this would be the leeward side.
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If we can say for sure there were attempts to cut the tent from the inside, that would suggest they thought the tent would collapse or they heard a noise and thought something like an avalanche was occurring (or it was a kind of unwise survivalist exercise or punishment), because then they secured the tent and deliberately walked down to the tree line. A reconstruction would likely provide us with enough evidence to say with a reasonably high degree of certainty which one. However, more than one attempt to cut it open that failed suggests it was iced up and so didn't cut easily, and that's a reconstruction anyone living in a cold climate can do themselves (that is, get a piece of heavy canvas, ice it up on one side, and try to cut it with a similar kind of knife on the non-iced side).
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If we can say for sure there were attempts to cut the tent from the inside, that would suggest they thought the tent would collapse or they heard a noise and thought something like an avalanche was occurring (or it was a kind of unwise survivalist exercise or punishment), because then they secured the tent and deliberately walked down to the tree line. A reconstruction would likely provide us with enough evidence to say with a reasonably high degree of certainty which one. However, more than one attempt to cut it open that failed suggests it was iced up and so didn't cut easily, and that's a reconstruction anyone living in a cold climate can do themselves (that is, get a piece of heavy canvas, ice it up on one side, and try to cut it with a similar kind of knife on the non-iced side).
Problem is we can not say for sure anything about the Tent. And having it go missing means we can not examine it.
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If we can say for sure there were attempts to cut the tent from the inside, that would suggest they thought the tent would collapse or they heard a noise and thought something like an avalanche was occurring (or it was a kind of unwise survivalist exercise or punishment), because then they secured the tent and deliberately walked down to the tree line. A reconstruction would likely provide us with enough evidence to say with a reasonably high degree of certainty which one. However, more than one attempt to cut it open that failed suggests it was iced up and so didn't cut easily, and that's a reconstruction anyone living in a cold climate can do themselves (that is, get a piece of heavy canvas, ice it up on one side, and try to cut it with a similar kind of knife on the non-iced side).
It would be an interesting experiment to conduct. I would think if the knife was even a little bit dull it would be difficult to cut through heavy canvas.
Here's what Sharavin stated in his interview:
MSh: "The fact that [the tent] was cut from inside we could see even before the [oficial] examination, while taking the tent apart."
YK: "You take a knife stick and pull towards you..."
MSh: "Outside, it would have been thrust once and dragged, and there were several attempts, several cuts from the inside, such weak punctures in the tent fabric were observed and then only a cut. We found this when examining the section still in place, and then the examination confirmed this. This this is not a gap, so it goes obliquely of the fibers, and the gap is either vertically or horizontally, where it is weaker there. We cut down part of the tent with an ice ax, i.e. we cut from the top through the bottom. We did damage, you could say it was necessary .. we had to find out if there was somebody inside, but I think that it could be done differently, it wasn't necessary to cut the tent."
I think it could have been stabbing at the tent and the blade slipping out before it could start the cut. The forensic examiner also noted some of these scrapes along the inside. The examiner only noted three cuts (even though she states "not all cuts are shown on the scheme"). The cuts are strange in and of themselves because they run more horizontally than vertically. When comparing the actual photograph of the tent to the scheme drawn up by Churkina, it almost appears that the photograph is reversed. Not being able to see the side where the stove pipe would fit makes it difficult to tell what's going on in the photograph. For example, the large vertical tear/cut? on the left side of the tent in the photograph https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg) is shown on the right side by Churkina here https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-Churkina-photo-01-en.jpg (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-Churkina-photo-01-en.jpg).
So, I don't know about the cuts. I guess the only thing I can add is that it seems more likely they were made while the tent was taut and not after it had collapsed.
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Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
Firn snow takes around a year to form. This area of the Urals is warm in the summer and all snow melts.
Also 10cm of any kind of snow is not sufficient to provide much insulation and moreover if you raise the temperature to 0C somehow you will have a "drip problem" and soon wet blankets and clothing.
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Responding to: "The cuts are strange in and of themselves because they run more horizontally than vertically."
They may have tried to cut horizontally first but couldn't get enough force that way, due to the small size of the tent (can't stand up). If you are kneeling and use two hands on the knife, I think you can cut with a lot more force if you do so vertically (starting as high as you can and pushing down). The idea to cut horizontally may have beeen due to how the heavy snow/ice had formed, if they did try to cut that way first.
I'll also mention that most items they took with them to that site were found positioned in a neat/orderly way, and this suggests they acted quickly and thought those items would be reasonably well preserved in place. The idea that this was stage is far-fetched, to put it nicely, but regardless, you go with the evidence you have, or else you are "assuming facts not in evidence," and so should be working on obtaining that evidence, rather than suggesting the actual evidence has been faked. It's not as easy to fake crime scenes, say a husband killing his wife in a house that they share (with nobody else living there), so the idea that this type of scene, which is consistent with simple bad decision-making in a hostile environment, should be tossed aside is just ridiculous (to those who are making such claims). But I welcome attempts at reconstructing all or part of the incident, as that always seems to lead to new or interesting revelations.
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If it had been staged properly, we wouldn't have all these inconsistences, much like the husband trying to fake a scene at the house. this is hardly as well done job but well within their capabilities.
The reason nothing adds up is it is all a lie. if that is what happened then we would be able to come up with a reason that they camped there, with no heat and improper clothing for that cold, walked down the slope a kilometer, lit a fire and then left it, make a den in another place with no access to fire wood. Get horrible injuries and then die.
If it happened that way, it would all add up. it doesn't so it didn't happen. like putting the rifle in the wrong hand and calling it a suicide. yes there is a dead body but how it happened? the evidence for suicide doesn't fit because it wasn't one. if it was, then it would be a revolver in the right hand.
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If it had been staged properly, we wouldn't have all these inconsistences, much like the husband trying to fake a scene at the house. this is hardly as well done job but well within their capabilities.
The reason nothing adds up is it is all a lie. if that is what happened then we would be able to come up with a reason that they camped there, with no heat and improper clothing for that cold, walked down the slope a kilometer, lit a fire and then left it, make a den in another place with no access to fire wood. Get horrible injuries and then die.
If it happened that way, it would all add up. it doesn't so it didn't happen. like putting the rifle in the wrong hand and calling it a suicide. yes there is a dead body but how it happened? the evidence for suicide doesn't fit because it wasn't one. if it was, then it would be a revolver in the right hand.
Apparently, you didn't read my post from perhaps a week ago, where I quoted Pat Brown in her book about the criminal cases she investigated. In one, she had to consult three experts before one of them could figure out a very straightforward issue, which involved how blood spatter could go forward if the person was sitting in the driver's seat with the shotgun in his mouth (pointing to the back of his head). Now if you question all the evidence (saying it is all faked), then you are beyond conspiracy theories, IMO, and you may have violated the rules of this forum. But as to camping without using the heat source, as others pointed out, this is something that campers/hikers/climbers have done in cold weather, and the Russian troops, more than a dozen years earlier, had dug out "dens" to survive the night under similar conditions (with no tent at all), so your belief that nobody would pitch a tent there with no heat is just something you would like to believe, because it allows you to claim that everything is faked (and I'm now beginning to suspect you may just be writing up these posts because you get some sort of enjoyment by exasperating other people). To me, the Chivrauy incident, more than a dozen years later, is more puzzling, in terms of bad decision-making.
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this is going to come as a complete shock to you, but you don't have to read what I post AND you don't have to comment. If my thinking bothers you ignore it. If I am violating the rules of the forum to question the evidence, then kick me off. I really don't care.
A dozen years ago isn't 60 years and the equipment used a dozen years ago is hardly comparable to what was available 60 years ago.
I don't think they were ever there, you do. I had no idea I was supposed to bow to your superior ? whatever you think you have and agree with what ever you say. I guess I missed it in the forum rules that "everyone has to agree with Investigator" my bad.
I personally thought the idea of a forum was to discuss any aspect of it, but I was obviously wrong. It is obviously to toe the party line and I wont' do that.
Bye
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this is going to come as a complete shock to you, but you don't have to read what I post AND you don't have to comment. If my thinking bothers you ignore it. If I am violating the rules of the forum to question the evidence, then kick me off. I really don't care.
A dozen years ago isn't 60 years and the equipment used a dozen years ago is hardly comparable to what was available 60 years ago.
I don't think they were ever there, you do. I had no idea I was supposed to bow to your superior ? whatever you think you have and agree with what ever you say. I guess I missed it in the forum rules that "everyone has to agree with Investigator" my bad.
I personally thought the idea of a forum was to discuss any aspect of it, but I was obviously wrong. It is obviously to toe the party line and I wont' do that.
Bye
And my "line" is the "party line?" I don't see any mystery at all, let alone the vast conspiracy that you do, but at your level of reasoning, we can also say that it must have been done by alien beings, because that is also possible and doesn't fit the evidence, which is what you are claiming. You want to tell us that you believe a certain thing happened, which is certainly not impossible, but is contradicted by the evidence we have. You also have no evidence that it was faked or deliberately mishandled by the investigating authorities. Moreover, these kinds of incidents are not even uncommon!
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Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
Firn snow takes around a year to form. This area of the Urals is warm in the summer and all snow melts.
Also 10cm of any kind of snow is not sufficient to provide much insulation and moreover if you raise the temperature to 0C somehow you will have a "drip problem" and soon wet blankets and clothing.
The firn snow observation is from the case files that's what the first people at the tent found. That's how they described it. They damaged the tent chipping through it with an ice axe. One of the questions to be answered is how do you create firn snow in three weeks? My answer is by heat.
It was 10cm after this process not before.
Yes the drip problem would have been an issue, but i don't think comfort was their main concern.
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
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Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
Firn snow takes around a year to form. This area of the Urals is warm in the summer and all snow melts.
Also 10cm of any kind of snow is not sufficient to provide much insulation and moreover if you raise the temperature to 0C somehow you will have a "drip problem" and soon wet blankets and clothing.
The firn snow observation is from the case files that's what the first people at the tent found. That's how they described it. They damaged the tent chipping through it with an ice axe. One of the questions to be answered is how do you create firn snow in three weeks? My answer is by heat.
It was 10cm after this process not before.
Yes the drip problem would have been an issue, but i don't think comfort was their main concern.
My guess is that, assuming there was snowfall during that period, what happens is the snow warms up during the day and then there is strong directional wind at night, when the temperatures are considerably colder. I remember when I was a kid and played in snow, that there were different qualities to the snow. Sometimes it was hard on top, if you tapped it with your fingers, but if you walked on it, it would easily collapse and what was underneath was soft. Other times it was wet and slushy, etc., but the next day it could be like a sheet of ice, and so forth.
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Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
Firn snow takes around a year to form. This area of the Urals is warm in the summer and all snow melts.
Also 10cm of any kind of snow is not sufficient to provide much insulation and moreover if you raise the temperature to 0C somehow you will have a "drip problem" and soon wet blankets and clothing.
The firn snow observation is from the case files that's what the first people at the tent found. That's how they described it. They damaged the tent chipping through it with an ice axe. One of the questions to be answered is how do you create firn snow in three weeks? My answer is by heat.
It was 10cm after this process not before.
Yes the drip problem would have been an issue, but i don't think comfort was their main concern.
My guess is that, assuming there was snowfall during that period, what happens is the snow warms up during the day and then there is strong directional wind at night, when the temperatures are considerably colder. I remember when I was a kid and played in snow, that there were different qualities to the snow. Sometimes it was hard on top, if you tapped it with your fingers, but if you walked on it, it would easily collapse and what was underneath was soft. Other times it was wet and slushy, etc., but the next day it could be like a sheet of ice, and so forth.
The rescuers talk about the snow around the tent being so hard and bumpy (wind carved wet snow?) that they had to dismount from their skis and walk to the tent. Imo it all points at unusual warming, the tent was on the north east slope so not ideal for the (weak) sun.
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Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
Firn snow takes around a year to form. This area of the Urals is warm in the summer and all snow melts.
Also 10cm of any kind of snow is not sufficient to provide much insulation and moreover if you raise the temperature to 0C somehow you will have a "drip problem" and soon wet blankets and clothing.
The firn snow observation is from the case files that's what the first people at the tent found. That's how they described it. They damaged the tent chipping through it with an ice axe. One of the questions to be answered is how do you create firn snow in three weeks? My answer is by heat.
It was 10cm after this process not before.
Yes the drip problem would have been an issue, but i don't think comfort was their main concern.
My guess is that, assuming there was snowfall during that period, what happens is the snow warms up during the day and then there is strong directional wind at night, when the temperatures are considerably colder. I remember when I was a kid and played in snow, that there were different qualities to the snow. Sometimes it was hard on top, if you tapped it with your fingers, but if you walked on it, it would easily collapse and what was underneath was soft. Other times it was wet and slushy, etc., but the next day it could be like a sheet of ice, and so forth.
The rescuers talk about the snow around the tent being so hard and bumpy (wind carved wet snow?) that they had to dismount from their skis and walk to the tent. Imo it all points at unusual warming, the tent was on the north east slope so not ideal for the (weak) sun.
Also, let's not forget they apparently secured their tent very well by piling a certain amount of snow on top!
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Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?
Firn snow takes around a year to form. This area of the Urals is warm in the summer and all snow melts.
Also 10cm of any kind of snow is not sufficient to provide much insulation and moreover if you raise the temperature to 0C somehow you will have a "drip problem" and soon wet blankets and clothing.
The firn snow observation is from the case files that's what the first people at the tent found. That's how they described it. They damaged the tent chipping through it with an ice axe. One of the questions to be answered is how do you create firn snow in three weeks? My answer is by heat.
It was 10cm after this process not before.
Yes the drip problem would have been an issue, but i don't think comfort was their main concern.
My guess is that, assuming there was snowfall during that period, what happens is the snow warms up during the day and then there is strong directional wind at night, when the temperatures are considerably colder. I remember when I was a kid and played in snow, that there were different qualities to the snow. Sometimes it was hard on top, if you tapped it with your fingers, but if you walked on it, it would easily collapse and what was underneath was soft. Other times it was wet and slushy, etc., but the next day it could be like a sheet of ice, and so forth.
The rescuers talk about the snow around the tent being so hard and bumpy (wind carved wet snow?) that they had to dismount from their skis and walk to the tent. Imo it all points at unusual warming, the tent was on the north east slope so not ideal for the (weak) sun.
Also, let's not forget they apparently secured their tent very well by piling a certain amount of snow on top!
Sorry i don't see a connection with the area experiencing unusual warming?
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
hot spot refers to an area close to the tent that appears in the photos to have melted. N.b. it's not referred to in the case files but it comes up when unusual warming of the tent area is discussed.
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
This line of the theory should be easy for you to prove. Where did the helicopter come from? There will be a paper trail and civilian workers aware of it being used that night, because it would need fuel and radio contact (I assume you mean the night of February 1-2 when Atmanaki's hiking group saw a flare type light near Otorten, since the only other light in the sky in February was the 17, and was determined to be a rocket. Those were the only two nights of lights until March, so this helicopter dropping off their bodies and camp would have to have been the night of the 1-2.) There are only a few helicopters out in that region during this time so it should be easy for you to narrow it down to where it came from.
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
This line of the theory should be easy for you to prove. Where did the helicopter come from? There will be a paper trail and civilian workers aware of it being used that night, because it would need fuel and radio contact (I assume you mean the night of February 1-2 when Atmanaki's hiking group saw a flare type light near Otorten, since the only other light in the sky in February was the 17, and was determined to be a rocket. Those were the only two nights of lights until March, so this helicopter dropping off their bodies and camp would have to have been the night of the 1-2.) There are only a few helicopters out in that region during this time so it should be easy for you to narrow it down to where it came from.
The Soviet Union had one of the largest militaries in the world, perhaps the largest? Which means lots of helicopters? The region was remote to vehicles (no roads) but no effort for a helicopter based in the Sverdlovsk area.
As for records, when the case was classified all original materials were confiscated so they will exist somewhere, probably with helicopter records should they exist! kewl1
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
This line of the theory should be easy for you to prove. Where did the helicopter come from? There will be a paper trail and civilian workers aware of it being used that night, because it would need fuel and radio contact (I assume you mean the night of February 1-2 when Atmanaki's hiking group saw a flare type light near Otorten, since the only other light in the sky in February was the 17, and was determined to be a rocket. Those were the only two nights of lights until March, so this helicopter dropping off their bodies and camp would have to have been the night of the 1-2.) There are only a few helicopters out in that region during this time so it should be easy for you to narrow it down to where it came from.
The Soviet Union had one of the largest militaries in the world, perhaps the largest? Which means lots of helicopters? The region was remote to vehicles (no roads) but no effort for a helicopter based in the Sverdlovsk area.
As for records, when the case was classified all original materials were confiscated so they will exist somewhere, probably with helicopter records should they exist! kewl1
They did have a large military. And one of Kruschev's pushes was largely reducing it in order to put more money into military technology (ie rockets.) In 1959, while the relationship was not adversarial, Kruschev was quite upfront about reducing the power of the military (something he'd been working on since 1957, actually.) However, we have records of all of the military and civilian aircraft involved in the search, so we know what was available in the area. We have interviews with pilots and with the people who worked at the airfields, etc. It should be relatively easy to either show that there was a helicopter missing the night of the incident, or that records for that night are missing (similar to the missing radiograms from late Feb when a pilot claims too have seen the tent before its discovery.)
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
hot spot refers to an area close to the tent that appears in the photos to have melted. N.b. it's not referred to in the case files but it comes up when unusual warming of the tent area is discussed.
Is this the spot which is Circular ! ?
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
Well, if I read Russian and trusted that any documents used to show a cover up would be available for public to see, I would agree. As I don't and I highly doubt they left documents laying around to prove it I am pretty sure I won't be able to do it
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
This line of the theory should be easy for you to prove. Where did the helicopter come from? There will be a paper trail and civilian workers aware of it being used that night, because it would need fuel and radio contact (I assume you mean the night of February 1-2 when Atmanaki's hiking group saw a flare type light near Otorten, since the only other light in the sky in February was the 17, and was determined to be a rocket. Those were the only two nights of lights until March, so this helicopter dropping off their bodies and camp would have to have been the night of the 1-2.) There are only a few helicopters out in that region during this time so it should be easy for you to narrow it down to where it came from.
Yes, all the records are in Russian which I don't read and I'm sure they left records of equipment and men used in a cover up, just lying around to be found. a breeze I'm sure
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
This line of the theory should be easy for you to prove. Where did the helicopter come from? There will be a paper trail and civilian workers aware of it being used that night, because it would need fuel and radio contact (I assume you mean the night of February 1-2 when Atmanaki's hiking group saw a flare type light near Otorten, since the only other light in the sky in February was the 17, and was determined to be a rocket. Those were the only two nights of lights until March, so this helicopter dropping off their bodies and camp would have to have been the night of the 1-2.) There are only a few helicopters out in that region during this time so it should be easy for you to narrow it down to where it came from.
The Soviet Union had one of the largest militaries in the world, perhaps the largest? Which means lots of helicopters? The region was remote to vehicles (no roads) but no effort for a helicopter based in the Sverdlovsk area.
As for records, when the case was classified all original materials were confiscated so they will exist somewhere, probably with helicopter records should they exist! kewl1
They did have a large military. And one of Kruschev's pushes was largely reducing it in order to put more money into military technology (ie rockets.) In 1959, while the relationship was not adversarial, Kruschev was quite upfront about reducing the power of the military (something he'd been working on since 1957, actually.) However, we have records of all of the military and civilian aircraft involved in the search, so we know what was available in the area. We have interviews with pilots and with the people who worked at the airfields, etc. It should be relatively easy to either show that there was a helicopter missing the night of the incident, or that records for that night are missing (similar to the missing radiograms from late Feb when a pilot claims too have seen the tent before its discovery.)
Let me make sure I am getting this right. You think that the helicopters used in the cover up would be recorded as being used in the search? All the records are in Russian and I'm certain that any records of people and equipment used in the cover up have been destroyed.
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I wonder if the down draft from the helicopters could compact that much snow.
The Soviet helicopters typically used turbo prop engines which is a kind of jet engine, so would be a lot of exhaust heat. Are you aware of the hot spot?
Well, if I read Russian and trusted that any documents used to show a cover up would be available for public to see, I would agree. As I don't and I highly doubt they left documents laying around to prove it I am pretty sure I won't be able to do it
No I am not but when I get back to work I will ask them. I work at the airport and the helicopter mechanic has his office next to mine. I will get his input on Monday. Like the trapper, he knows way more than me
if you have any questions you would like to ask an experienced helicopter mechanic whose helicopters work in the canadian rockies and do a lot of rescue missions, just let me know and I will ask him.
This line of the theory should be easy for you to prove. Where did the helicopter come from? There will be a paper trail and civilian workers aware of it being used that night, because it would need fuel and radio contact (I assume you mean the night of February 1-2 when Atmanaki's hiking group saw a flare type light near Otorten, since the only other light in the sky in February was the 17, and was determined to be a rocket. Those were the only two nights of lights until March, so this helicopter dropping off their bodies and camp would have to have been the night of the 1-2.) There are only a few helicopters out in that region during this time so it should be easy for you to narrow it down to where it came from.
Yes, all the records are in Russian which I don't read and I'm sure they left records of equipment and men used in a cover up, just lying around to be found. a breeze I'm sure
There is always a paper trail. Helicopters require fuel, clearance, pilots, staff. There are radiograms recording every flight. But, even more, if the military was so strong that they could do such a shoddy cover up without fearing reprisal from citizens, why would they bother hiding documents?
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If there was a helicopter in the area, it might not be seen, first of all it would probably fly during the day and not at night but if it flew at night, it doesn't necessarily need lights, could just use an infrared (night vision) camera.
But surely the Mansi would hear it and talk about that in their testimonies? Instead of saying there was nothing out of the ordinary, they would note a helicopter flying to the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason
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If there was a helicopter in the area, it might not be seen, first of all it would probably fly during the day and not at night but if it flew at night, it doesn't necessarily need lights, could just use an infrared (night vision) camera.
But surely the Mansi would hear it and talk about that in their testimonies? Instead of saying there was nothing out of the ordinary, they would note a helicopter flying to the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason
Think technology in 1950's USSR. Night Vision equipment was still in its early stages of development and fairly crude.
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it was good enough to fly bombing missions, secret drops etc. I'm sure there wasn't a technological issue that would stop it
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If there was a helicopter in the area, it might not be seen, first of all it would probably fly during the day and not at night but if it flew at night, it doesn't necessarily need lights, could just use an infrared (night vision) camera.
But surely the Mansi would hear it and talk about that in their testimonies? Instead of saying there was nothing out of the ordinary, they would note a helicopter flying to the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason
That is a good question and I'm not familiar enough with their culture to answer that. It may be something they would have shared with the searchers, it might not be. Did they mention the lights that were seen in the area or was the just other people who reported it?
They had just come through a war, radar had been invented. they were able to fly night time bombing raids, night time covert actions etc, this wouldn't have been an issue for them
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it was good enough to fly bombing missions, secret drops etc. I'm sure there wasn't a technological issue that would stop it
Flying under Visual Meteorological Conditions at night was possible in the US Air Force at the beginning of the 1970s. So helicopters at night without searchlights are out of speculation.
The first binocular helmet-mounted displays (HMDs) were introduced into the US Air Force at the beginning of the 1970s. Parallel to this development, there was an expansion into thermal infrared ranges near the visible spectrum at the end of the 1970s.
https://military-medicine.com/article/2833-flying-with-night-vision-devices.html
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We obviously are using different sources of information because the US was using helicopters at night in Vietnam during the war. Pilots didn't like flying at night and felt it was scarier than flying into battle but it was done. According to what I read, they used compass to find direction and navigated by the moon and stars, strangely, like we have been doing for thousands of years.
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I talked to my helicopter mechanic and he yes, the helicopters would leave a melted spot. How big depended on the size of them. when I asked him if he thought they would fly in the night back then he said, quote "we have a saying, there are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots so there is always someone wanting to push the envelope"