Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dona on March 30, 2021, 08:01:42 AM
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Three of them had head injuries.. 2 fractures, both at the temple and Georgy had head injury to the back of his head..
Did they fall? Nope. How do 2 people fall and injure them same place. the temple.. and how do you fall and hit the temple area, twice. And Did Georgy fall backwards and hit his head on a rock too? So 3 people fell and hit their heads? Wouldn't the injury from a fall be on your face, forehead... cheek? Did they both turn their heads just at the right moment to hit their temple? Nooooo And why do they only hit their heads on rocks.. did a third of them fall and hit their heads.. You wouldnt have that head injury rate over their lifetimes.. let alone in and hour or two. Take 9 of your family members.. How many died from a skull fracture? None..
This is looking more like an attack..a tree fall or something..
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a tree fall or something..
This is the theory in "1079" book.
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I know :) Its looking more believable..
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Thibeaux's head was crushed against this rock in the ravine:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61647
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=88138
Slobodin's frontal bone cracking is postmortem.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=d0b5b5fb2079b353f3bf128914e5a264&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90633
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They were mostly walking in stocking feet in complete darkness down a rock-strewn slope. It was negative 20 degrees with the wind blowing hard enough to topple trees. Under those conditions, who knows what injuries could occur. Cracked skulls on the sides of heads are not out of the question. Thibeaux-Brignolle's injury could have occurred in a fall into the ravine.
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You think the fell in a row.. side by side.. neatly?
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If they fell down a slope.. really? They would have arm fractures.. not head fractures... on their temples.. both of them.. Georgy had a head injury too? Did he fall backwards?
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Low velocity (2 m/s) snow slab would be plausible explanation. In this study 10 kg rigid block 7 m/s velocity to human thorax with restrained back is already lethal, so tree falling is not plausible.
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8
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Looks like Georgy was also hit in the temple area.
What are the odds?? A million to one?
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Low velocity (2 m/s) snow slab would be plausible explanation. In this study 10 kg rigid block 7 m/s velocity to human thorax with restrained back is already lethal, so tree falling is not plausible.
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8
Is that the ravine or tent area?
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Low velocity (2 m/s) snow slab would be plausible explanation. In this study 10 kg rigid block 7 m/s velocity to human thorax with restrained back is already lethal, so tree falling is not plausible.
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8
Is that the ravine or tent area?
The linked article proposes it happened at the site of the tent.
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I thought that was resolved..as no evidence .. they never considered it at the time.
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I know I have posted before saying their injuries are not typical of an avalanche. Guess what, I've been reading more about this topic. Skull and chest trauma including serious trauma are the most common injuries in avalanches. Not the most common cause of death though (that's asphyxiation).
If the avalanche was at the tent, still doesn't explain how they got to the ravine. If the avalanche was at the ravine.... which I think fits the case better, then abandoning the tent is not explained.
I still don't really understand camping on the slope and especially "cutting" the snow to achieve a level platform. They must have known better. It makes absolutely no sense to set up the tent like that under any circumstances, let alone when the forest is so close.But then again I also have a hard time digesting the "staging" scenarios due to lack of motive. So that's an impasse..
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Three of them had head injuries.. 2 fractures, both at the temple and Georgy had head injury to the back of his head..
Did they fall? Nope. How do 2 people fall and injure them same place. the temple.. and how do you fall and hit the temple area, twice. And Did Georgy fall backwards and hit his head on a rock too? So 3 people fell and hit their heads? Wouldn't the injury from a fall be on your face, forehead... cheek? Did they both turn their heads just at the right moment to hit their temple? Nooooo And why do they only hit their heads on rocks.. did a third of them fall and hit their heads.. You wouldnt have that head injury rate over their lifetimes.. let alone in and hour or two. Take 9 of your family members.. How many died from a skull fracture? None..
This is looking more like an attack..a tree fall or something..
I will go with, something. By the way, a Bear could inflict all of the injuries that we have seen. Crushed bodies, Skulls broken, Scratch marks etc etc. The only thing that I would be questioning is the Missing Eyes and Tongue.
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I know I have posted before saying their injuries are not typical of an avalanche. Guess what, I've been reading more about this topic. Skull and chest trauma including serious trauma are the most common injuries in avalanches. Not the most common cause of death though (that's asphyxiation).
If the avalanche was at the tent, still doesn't explain how they got to the ravine. If the avalanche was at the ravine.... which I think fits the case better, then abandoning the tent is not explained.
I still don't really understand camping on the slope and especially "cutting" the snow to achieve a level platform. They must have known better. It makes absolutely no sense to set up the tent like that under any circumstances, let alone when the forest is so close.But then again I also have a hard time digesting the "staging" scenarios due to lack of motive. So that's an impasse..
The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..
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I really dont think the eyes and tongue have any meaning here..
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The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..
Ok but what about an avalanche at the ravine? Maybe they, Semyon, Lyuda, Thibo, and Kolevatov realised they are in the wrong valley, and have to cross the ridge to get to the labaz. But while trying to ascend they trigger a small avalanche not having gotten very far from the cedar and they end up buried under snow in the lowest local point, the ravine.
Why they left the tent is another matter...
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I dont see how they all got just one-single-injury from that tho.. Where is the crushed pelvis, dislocated shoulder.. broken pinky toe.. How do you get crushed and only have one injury..
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If Lyuda was estimated to have lived for up to 20 minutes after her injuries, wouldn't that make the snow slab with the most common cause of death being asphyxiation less likely? Sorry, I don't know all the details of their injuries, so just asking the question.
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Good point! If they were crushed by a snow collapse, they would have asphyxiated in minutes,, I wonder if they even check for that.. Then I dont know if they can cuz everyone who is dead is asphyxiated :)
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If Lyuda was estimated to have lived for up to 20 minutes after her injuries, wouldn't that make the snow slab with the most common cause of death being asphyxiation less likely?
"... In these cases, the median duration of burial was 25 minutes (interquartile range 10–56 minutes) for trauma victims and 45 minutes (interquartile range 20–231 minutes) for asphyxia victims (p = 0.009). The depth of burial also differed significantly for trauma and asphyxia victims (median 90 cm [interquartile range 30–120 cm] v. 150 cm [interquartile range 100–200 cm]; p < 0.001)..."
This is from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645441/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645441/). Apparently asphyxia under snow takes time.
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Well thank you very much for the link. I had no idea it could take 45 minutes to asphyxiate. Interesting that the main injuries associated with avalanches are head, chest and neck. You learn something every day.
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The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..
The trouble for me is there was no Ming Vases or nothing else breakable in the tent.
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The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..
The trouble for me is there was no Ming Vases or nothing else breakable in the tent.
lol2
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There were crackers and bread out.. left intact.. A cup of some kind of drink.. still intact..
Try again!
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... left intact.. A cup of some kind of drink.. still intact..
How You can be sure that crackers or drink should be crushed?
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Uhmmm 23 fractured ribs?
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Uhmmm 23 fractured ribs?
Do we have proof of uncrushed crackers or drinks in the tent?
Even on slab avalanche we cannot be sure that every cracker or drink bottle will break down. So, Your assumption doesn't prove anything.
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I doubt it.
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I really dont think the eyes and tongue have any meaning here..
On the contrary. The Eyes and Tongue belong to the Head part of the Human body.
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Good point! If they were crushed by a snow collapse, they would have asphyxiated in minutes,, I wonder if they even check for that.. Then I dont know if they can cuz everyone who is dead is asphyxiated :)
People get buried in Avalanches and survive uninjured.
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I think the mug found in the tent was metal so it wouldn't be crushed.
As this thread is about skull fractures, is there a photo of Thibo? I don't like looking at those pictures so might have missed it but he has some of the weirdest injuries (oval holes in multiple places on his sweater, and hat?), yet no photo?
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are the holes all the same size?
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I didt hear about any holes... whats with that? Also who would cut up clothing and discard it, while freezing to death
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From Nicks autopsy""Say whaaat?
"... In the right pocket there are grey gloves"
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The holes.. Coroner states clothes are worn and ragged.. So, maybe that's it
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There were crackers and bread out.. left intact.. A cup of some kind of drink.. still intact..
Try again!
Well... they were frozen rusks. Not exactly a saltine cracker.
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Three things come to mind when thinking about hard objects capable of making said injuries. Rock, Ice, and wood.
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Stacy Galloways book " Death of Nine" mentions the crackers.. Maybe they had both
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Three things come to mind when thinking about hard objects capable of making said injuries. Rock, Ice, and wood.
Or something you brought with you.. This looks like a man made object to me.. Its just too perfect, symmetrical etc..
(https://i.ibb.co/x3y6xhj/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-autopsy-report.png) (https://ibb.co/WsQfmny)
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Well, if there was a minor avalanche... there are several rocky ledges in which they tumbled over on the way down. Could they have not have lived long enough to be dragged into the ravine for cover? How do we know if any of them were even still alive IF they were taken to the ravine after sustaining said injuries in the scenario described? 🤷🏼♂️
In my opinion, looking at that injury and knowing what caused it is a bit of a stretch for me.
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I think the single file footprints precludes that theory.
I didnt say I knew what caused it.. just that the shape doesnt seem.... organic. If it is accurate, of course..
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I think the single file footprints precludes that theory.
I didnt say I knew what caused it.. just that the shape doesnt seem.... organic. If it is accurate, of course..
No telling, if memory serves correctly, the prints started some distance from the tent, went for a while, the disappeared again. It would seem to me that wind blown snow conditions in the following days and weeks would greatly effect how visible the prints are, where, and when. So many variables.
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are the holes all the same size?
From case files:
"А. External examination On the examination table is a male body clothed as follows: the head is covered by a tightly tied green woolen sports cap with three round holes sized 3 x 3 cm located in the front. A khaki canvas fur helmet with a zipper fastener [like a flying helmet]; the helmet is drawn by a cord. A green canvas sheepskin jacket with a zipper and two pockets. In the right pocket there are grey gloves. In the left pocket are 10, 20, and 2 kopeck coins; two folded pieces of paper; and a comb. A ragged wool sweater is worn on the left side. A worn-out knitted blue shirt, which on the right and bottom has torn ovals in the fabric 2 x 3 cm in size. On the left forearm there are two watches: a Sportivnye watch showing the time 8 hours, 14 minutes, 24 seconds, and a Pobeda brand watch showing the time 8 hours, 39 minutes. The legs are covered with practically new grey felt boots (valenki). On the right leg are white hand knitted wool socks; the same socks are also on the left leg. There are crumpled brown wool socks located in the soles of the corresponding felt boots. The body is wearing warm woolen winter pants, the cuffs of which are fasted by a leather belt with a metal buckle. Under these pants are blue cotton sports pants and black satin underwear. In the pocket (crossed) of the outer pants a white metal button and a metal chain from a wall clock were found.After the removal of the clothes, the following was found: a male body of proper constitution and good nutrition, 174 cm long. The body has purple green spots on the posterolateral surface of the chest, neck and extremities. Rigor mortis has resolved in the muscle groups of the joints. The skin of the face, body and limbs is of a grey-greenish color seeping from the surface layer of the epidermis. There is hair on the head with a length of 8 cm. The forehead is high and sloping backwards and there are thick black eyebrows. The eyes are closed; the eyeballs are sunk far into their sockets. The cornea is cloudy and dry, the iris is light green, and the mucosal membrane of the eyelid is of a pale grey color. The bridge of the nose is straight.
(crossed) The bones of the nose are intact when touched. On the upper left jaw there is a defectSheet 353
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in the soft tissue, which has an irregular oval shape with a size of 3 x 4 cm with drawn out, convoluted borders exposing the alveolar edge of the upper jaw, The teeth are white and even. The mouth is open. The lips have a pale grey color. The tongue is in the mouth. The mucous membrane of the tongue and mouth are of a dirty green color. On the cheeks, chin and upper lip there is black hair with a length of up to 1 cm. The openings of the mouth, nose and ear are clean. The neck is long and thin. The chest is cylindrical. The stomach is located below the chest. The dorsum of the hands and fingers are of a pale brown color and of parchment density; the fingers are bent at the joints. In the area of the fingers there is ‘bath skin’ of a pale grey color with the rejection of the nail plate. There is a 10 x 12 cm blue-green diffuse ecchymoma in the area of the right shoulder on the antero-internal surface at the lower middle and bottom thirds. In the area of the ecchymomare is hemorrhaging into the surrounding soft tissue."
So not all the same size but all similar..
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I think the single file footprints precludes that theory.
I didnt say I knew what caused it.. just that the shape doesnt seem.... organic. If it is accurate, of course..
No telling, if memory serves correctly, the prints started some distance from the tent, went for a while, the disappeared again. It would seem to me that wind blown snow conditions in the following days and weeks would greatly effect how visible the prints are, where, and when. So many variables.
True but, Luda, Simon and Nick could not have walked that far. But the prints bug me too. Where are the column footprints near the tent..
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Yeah.. I dont think its an animal biting his clothes etc..
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Yeah also they were under meters of snow that only recently started melting... I guess there could have been animals there under the snow but not large ones...
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You mean like insects? Hmmm, I dont know..
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You mean like insects? Hmmm, I dont know..
Field rats... but we also know they had been in the field traveling through brushy trails for days prior snagging clothing..
Bunch of techniques for moving injured people... snow just makes dragging options even easier.
Sorry for the super cheesy vid. 😜
https://youtu.be/U0yDJ0udMkg
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Naaah. I dont think they could carry 4, or more, people for a mile. Not and stay in single file, without resting etc..
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Naaah. I dont think they could carry 4, or more, people for a mile. Not and stay in single file, without resting etc..
Who says it was a mile? Half mile drag to the ravine I would suspect doable... three to ravine not four. From bottom of the slope... how about from the cedar location?
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Yeah, maybe from the cedar.. To me, it seems what ever went wrong, went wrong in the woods.
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4 or even 5 maybe.. Rustem had a head injury too.. and who knows whats up with Alex..choke to death.. I think
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Yeah, maybe from the cedar.. To me, it seems what ever went wrong, went wrong in the woods.
I thought we were talking about rugged and athletic young adults that go many miles into the wilderness... get bit by venomous snakes etc. 🤷🏼♂️
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Yep. And all the more reason to think they were attacked.. They arent bumbling idiots. nea1
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Yep. And all the more reason to think they were attacked.. They arent bumbling idiots. nea1
Nature and and a sequence of unfortunate events will kill the strongest of humans.
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You are talking about 2 skull fractures 23 broken ribs, 2 other head injuries and 3rd degree burns, in what, an hour or so.. LOLOL
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are the holes all the same size?
From case files:
"А. External examination On the examination table is a male body clothed as follows: the head is covered by a tightly tied green woolen sports cap with three round holes sized 3 x 3 cm located in the front. A khaki canvas fur helmet with a zipper fastener [like a flying helmet]; the helmet is drawn by a cord. A green canvas sheepskin jacket with a zipper and two pockets. In the right pocket there are grey gloves. In the left pocket are 10, 20, and 2 kopeck coins; two folded pieces of paper; and a comb. A ragged wool sweater is worn on the left side. A worn-out knitted blue shirt, which on the right and bottom has torn ovals in the fabric 2 x 3 cm in size. On the left forearm there are two watches: a Sportivnye watch showing the time 8 hours, 14 minutes, 24 seconds, and a Pobeda brand watch showing the time 8 hours, 39 minutes. The legs are covered with practically new grey felt boots (valenki). On the right leg are white hand knitted wool socks; the same socks are also on the left leg. There are crumpled brown wool socks located in the soles of the corresponding felt boots. The body is wearing warm woolen winter pants, the cuffs of which are fasted by a leather belt with a metal buckle. Under these pants are blue cotton sports pants and black satin underwear. In the pocket (crossed) of the outer pants a white metal button and a metal chain from a wall clock were found.After the removal of the clothes, the following was found: a male body of proper constitution and good nutrition, 174 cm long. The body has purple green spots on the posterolateral surface of the chest, neck and extremities. Rigor mortis has resolved in the muscle groups of the joints. The skin of the face, body and limbs is of a grey-greenish color seeping from the surface layer of the epidermis. There is hair on the head with a length of 8 cm. The forehead is high and sloping backwards and there are thick black eyebrows. The eyes are closed; the eyeballs are sunk far into their sockets. The cornea is cloudy and dry, the iris is light green, and the mucosal membrane of the eyelid is of a pale grey color. The bridge of the nose is straight.
(crossed) The bones of the nose are intact when touched. On the upper left jaw there is a defectSheet 353
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in the soft tissue, which has an irregular oval shape with a size of 3 x 4 cm with drawn out, convoluted borders exposing the alveolar edge of the upper jaw, The teeth are white and even. The mouth is open. The lips have a pale grey color. The tongue is in the mouth. The mucous membrane of the tongue and mouth are of a dirty green color. On the cheeks, chin and upper lip there is black hair with a length of up to 1 cm. The openings of the mouth, nose and ear are clean. The neck is long and thin. The chest is cylindrical. The stomach is located below the chest. The dorsum of the hands and fingers are of a pale brown color and of parchment density; the fingers are bent at the joints. In the area of the fingers there is ‘bath skin’ of a pale grey color with the rejection of the nail plate. There is a 10 x 12 cm blue-green diffuse ecchymoma in the area of the right shoulder on the antero-internal surface at the lower middle and bottom thirds. In the area of the ecchymomare is hemorrhaging into the surrounding soft tissue."
So not all the same size but all similar..
Thank you for posting this. Interestng the holes are a similar size and shape. I can understand the clothes could easily have been damaged by their travels etc, but any ideas how there's a defect in the soft tissue to the upper jaw of a similar size and shape also?
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You are talking about 2 skull fractures 23 broken ribs, 2 other head injuries and 3rd degree burns, in what, an hour or so.. LOLOL
Most of which happened in a split second. 🤷🏼♂️
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Hows that?
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Hows that?
Only the burns and self bitten hand happened at the cedar. The rav4 likely met the same force, that being an avalanche, collapse, fireball, explosion, ball lightening, fall.... insert your theory.
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..Yetis and UFO's too, huh. :)
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..Yetis and UFO's too, huh. :)
In my honest opinion, these fall into the murder column, so no. 😂
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The more I look into it, the more it looks that way..
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The more I look into it, the more it looks that way..
Except for the lack of motive and evidence anyone else was ever there. And those are biggies for most.
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The evidence wreaks of someone else there..
Motive.. who knows.. who cares.
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For example all those cut branches but only one knife was found, a pocket knife on Rustem. Does that hint on someone else being there? Or missing items, for example missing diaries, cameras, some of the food missing from the labaz (I read somewhere on this site that experienced hikers said the amount of food in the labaz wouldn't last the rest of the trip).
But if someone else was there how did they leave no trace in the snow?
I read that Mansi broadskis leave no trace... yet the Dyatlov Group were following a Mansi trail and write about it in the diaries. Or maybe broadskis leave a trail in the soft forest snow but not on the hard snow on the ridge?
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They would know to erase their tracks..wouldnt you? Maybe they were in the woods, no tracks of any kind found there..
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5 temple wounds, alone, tell me they werent alone.. Unless they killed each other..
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The evidence wreaks of someone else there..
Motive.. who knows.. who cares.
Coincidentally, motive is THE most important part in a murder. I would say you should care if thats the theory you prescribe to. 😬
Where is all this evidence other people were there, and please dont say ‘they had injuries’.
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Cops catch killers all they time and have to ask them why they did it.. Its meaningless here.
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The evidence wreaks of someone else there..
Motive.. who knows.. who cares.
Coincidentally, motive is THE most important part in a murder. I would say you should care if thats the theory you prescribe to. 😬
Where is all this evidence other people were there, and please dont say ‘they had injuries’.
I knew it.... 🤦🏼
But getting to quote yourself is priceless. 😂
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Cops catch killers all they time and have to ask them why they did it.. Its meaningless here.
Wait... so because a criminal doesn’t tell them what the motive is when asked, this means there is no motive?
🤨😂
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5 temple wounds are impossible by natural means...
The hidden fire
Mansi strap and leg warmer at the murder scene..
to start
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No It means it wasnt required to solve the crime.
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5 temple wounds are impossible by natural means...
The hidden fire
Mansi strap and leg warmer at the murder scene..
to start
Really? 🤨
Mansi were all over the mountain during the search (which was beyond sloppy) not to mention any member of the 9 could have picked it up along the trip.
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Oh yeah, and the Mansi found the bodies..lol
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“hidden fire”
I have got to hear this! 😀
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Give me a scenario where you can get 5 temple wounds..
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Oh yeah, and the Mansi found the bodies..lol
I don’t mean to sound rude.... but have you read the case files? 😬
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The cedar group was the sentries.. low level fire.. behind the tree so as no to be easily seen.. There is a reson they were there..
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Yeppers... Have you?
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Yeppers... Have you?
I posted them here didn’t I?
Who was found by mansi only? Nobody else in the group? If they knew exactly where they were and were able to pinpoint their location... why was the rav4 found months later during the thaw?
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They had ONE log on the fire.. one.
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You arent too good at this..lol
Wouldn't that be obvious if they found them right away..
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Yup... I’m convinced the Mansi done it. 😂
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Im not ... Maybe they were there afterwards..maybe they contaced the school or government on the 6th or 15th
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For example all those cut branches but only one knife was found, a pocket knife on Rustem. Does that hint on someone else being there? Or missing items, for example missing diaries, cameras, some of the food missing from the labaz (I read somewhere on this site that experienced hikers said the amount of food in the labaz wouldn't last the rest of the trip).
But if someone else was there how did they leave no trace in the snow?
I read that Mansi broadskis leave no trace... yet the Dyatlov Group were following a Mansi trail and write about it in the diaries. Or maybe broadskis leave a trail in the soft forest snow but not on the hard snow on the ridge?
I think the Mansi trail they were following was left by a Mansi and his reindeer.
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I think the Mansi trail they were following was left by a Mansi and his reindeer.
Ok, I assume they didn't ride reindeer so it must have been towing a sled.. so it was a sled trail. That makes sense.