Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dona on March 30, 2021, 07:01:59 PM

Title: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on March 30, 2021, 07:01:59 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up.. or from a fall..

So, thats Luda, Simon and Rustem, all lying down, presumably in the snow..looks like face down,  PRIOR to injury..

What the hell are they doing??
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on March 31, 2021, 03:38:20 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up.. or from a fall..

So, thats Luda, Simon and Rustem, all lying down, presumably in the snow..looks like face down,  PRIOR to injury..

What the hell are they doing??

Thats a good question, what the hell brought them to be in that position ! ? Its like they were placed there. I mean with those kind of serious injuries its not like they all cuddled up to one another.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on March 31, 2021, 04:15:18 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up..

So, not that personally I'm sold on that theory at all, but consider a moose attack. Look at videos of what annoyed moose typically do... you will see how it's possible to get chest injury standing up. 


Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on March 31, 2021, 04:44:30 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up..

So, not that personally I'm sold on that theory at all, but consider a moose attack. Look at videos of what annoyed moose typically do... you will see how it's possible to get chest injury standing up.

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on March 31, 2021, 05:07:25 PM

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Not conclusive but I thought the missing eyes and tongue are post-mortem?

And it could have been a bear too.. I liked the moose idea because moose prints almost don't look like prints at all. Whereas bear prints are fairly obvious and would be preserved as well as human footprints.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on March 31, 2021, 05:21:02 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up.. or from a fall..

So, thats Luda, Simon and Rustem, all lying down, presumably in the snow..looks like face down,  PRIOR to injury..

What the hell are they doing??

Thats a good question, what the hell brought them to be in that position ! ? Its like they were placed there. I mean with those kind of serious injuries its not like they all cuddled up to one another.

Yeah, it looks like they were placed there.. near the den..the dead ad dying.. Ludas livor mortis changed from back to her side..  Prolly died on her back, the shortly after, moved and placed there on her side..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on March 31, 2021, 05:22:29 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up..

So, not that personally I'm sold on that theory at all, but consider a moose attack. Look at videos of what annoyed moose typically do... you will see how it's possible to get chest injury standing up.

 A moose! There is something no ones thought of.. Capable of making those injuries.. Anything is possible!
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on March 31, 2021, 05:25:01 PM
I think Ludas face and mouth was sandblast with ice crystals in the creek water. I still say the eyes were lost with impact.. But  no way to know for sure.. Eyes can and do pop out, even on living breathing people..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on March 31, 2021, 05:41:04 PM
A moose! There is something no ones thought of.. Capable of making those injuries.. Anything is possible!
Oh, there's a whole board on this forum dedicated to the moose theory.

Just the first video that came up in Google for me. But this is what they usually try to do.. try to "trample" people and don't give up, this one only gave up because they had a gun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIgvCUXxh1Y
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on March 31, 2021, 05:48:19 PM
Certainly food for thought... I doubt that they would run from a moose but maybe its a 2 part thing..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: RMK on March 31, 2021, 08:20:59 PM
A moose! There is something no ones thought of.. Capable of making those injuries.. Anything is possible!
Oh, there's a whole board on this forum dedicated to the moose theory.
Manti is right.  Here is the dedicated subforum (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=54.0).  Note that the Eurasian Elk and the North American Moose are, to the best of my knowledge, the same species.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: bergertime on April 01, 2021, 12:20:54 PM
Is Luda lying down, in that picture she looks like she is leaning against that ledge? 
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on April 01, 2021, 12:30:51 PM
I would assume the current got her.. slid her off the edge,
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2021, 01:42:36 PM

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Not conclusive but I thought the missing eyes and tongue are post-mortem?

And it could have been a bear too.. I liked the moose idea because moose prints almost don't look like prints at all. Whereas bear prints are fairly obvious and would be preserved as well as human footprints.

Well my suspicions were aroused when I noticed the lack of detail in the Autopsy Report of Dubinina. Regarding the Tongue, all it said was that the Tongue was missing. What kind of Autopsy Report is that  ! ? Then nothing about the exact process of Decay that was alleged to have been responsible for the missing Eyes and Tongue.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2021, 01:44:47 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up..

So, not that personally I'm sold on that theory at all, but consider a moose attack. Look at videos of what annoyed moose typically do... you will see how it's possible to get chest injury standing up.

 A moose! There is something no ones thought of.. Capable of making those injuries.. Anything is possible!

Moose has been mentioned before on this Forum. They are big animals and tend to make a mess when they rampage and leave lots of Traces. No Evidence of involvement by Moose.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2021, 01:46:14 PM
I would assume the current got her.. slid her off the edge,

Thats a good assumption.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Ziljoe on April 01, 2021, 03:01:43 PM

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Not conclusive but I thought the missing eyes and tongue are post-mortem?

And it could have been a bear too.. I liked the moose idea because moose prints almost don't look like prints at all. Whereas bear prints are fairly obvious and would be preserved as well as human footprints.

Well my suspicions were aroused when I noticed the lack of detail in the Autopsy Report of Dubinina. Regarding the Tongue, all it said was that the Tongue was missing. What kind of Autopsy Report is that  ! ? Then nothing about the exact process of Decay that was alleged to have been responsible for the missing Eyes and Tongue.
[/quot

Sarapuk, I thought you said the tongue was surgically removed?
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on April 02, 2021, 05:19:23 PM

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Not conclusive but I thought the missing eyes and tongue are post-mortem?

And it could have been a bear too.. I liked the moose idea because moose prints almost don't look like prints at all. Whereas bear prints are fairly obvious and would be preserved as well as human footprints.

Well my suspicions were aroused when I noticed the lack of detail in the Autopsy Report of Dubinina. Regarding the Tongue, all it said was that the Tongue was missing. What kind of Autopsy Report is that  ! ? Then nothing about the exact process of Decay that was alleged to have been responsible for the missing Eyes and Tongue.
[/quot

Sarapuk, I thought you said the tongue was surgically removed?

I dont remember saying that. The Tongue was missing, thats all we know. No detail.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 02, 2021, 05:33:41 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up.. or from a fall..

So, thats Luda, Simon and Rustem, all lying down, presumably in the snow..looks like face down,  PRIOR to injury..

What the hell are they doing??


🤨


https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.msg880#msg880
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on April 02, 2021, 05:53:42 PM
I dont get it.. what is your point here?? dunno1
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Ziljoe on April 02, 2021, 06:03:26 PM

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Not conclusive but I thought the missing eyes and tongue are post-mortem?

And it could have been a bear too.. I liked the moose idea because moose prints almost don't look like prints at all. Whereas bear prints are fairly obvious and would be preserved as well as human footprints.

Well my suspicions were aroused when I noticed the lack of detail in the Autopsy Report of Dubinina. Regarding the Tongue, all it said was that the Tongue was missing. What kind of Autopsy Report is that  ! ? Then nothing about the exact process of Decay that was alleged to have been responsible for the missing Eyes and Tongue.
[/quot

Sarapuk, I thought you said the tongue was surgically removed?

I dont remember saying that. The Tongue was missing, thats all we know. No detail.

I think u said this sarapuk.


Doesnt explain the missing Tongue or Flesh parts that looked like they had been surgically removed
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on April 02, 2021, 06:09:03 PM
When  someones tongue is cut out,  you pull it out and cut the tip off.. like 1-2 inches.. You couldness get to the back of their throat to do it by hand..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Ziljoe on April 02, 2021, 06:12:15 PM
When  someones tongue is cut out,  you pull it out and cut the tip off.. like 1-2 inches.. You couldness get to the back of their throat to do it by hand..

Why you not in bed Dona.

Plus you are an expert on cutting out tongues! Lol
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on April 02, 2021, 11:39:26 PM
I dont get it.. what is your point here?? dunno1
I read that link.. it's an expert opinion from a pathologist saying the injuries are consistent with single large surface area impact and not multiple blows by objects held by humans..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on April 03, 2021, 05:08:51 AM
Yes, I know... Is someone disputing that?
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on April 03, 2021, 11:19:41 AM
Well, no, maybe, I don't know, but how can "large surface area impact" be human inflicted? Maybe it's possible somehow, I just can't think of how.


What has a large surface area on Kholat Syakhl?
It's very unlikely for anything airborne to land exactly where they were sleeping - you are right, the injuries indicate they were laid down when those happened.

I think even these few options have issues, if something large fell on them whatever it is, who removed them from under it and how?

That leaves two options really, snow and falling from a height. Maybe my imagination is too tame.  dunno1
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on April 03, 2021, 11:23:31 AM
Oh and I wanted to add, falling from a height doesn't need to be the edge of a cliff (there's no cliff there) or an aircraft. It could be the tree. Maybe they fell out of the tree and then crawled to the ravine area. Why would they climb the tree? I'm reading more and more about hypothermia and it's increasingly clear it causes hallucinations as it progresses.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on April 03, 2021, 11:36:33 AM
I dont think they climbed a tree. They arent scratched up like the others,, nd I doubt Luda would have been doing that.

Other possibilities could be people.. and something the had,, like guns..logs etc..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Manti on April 03, 2021, 12:11:00 PM
Do you think it could have been one of them? Harming the others until they restrain him (her) and they all freeze?

And some managed to escape but ran far and so also freeze in the cold?
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: Dona on April 03, 2021, 12:48:17 PM
It is possible it was  one, or more of them..
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: sarapuk on April 03, 2021, 03:51:35 PM

I would suggest Bear as a candidate. Although that doesnt explain Missing Eyes and Tongue, or lack of Footprints.
Not conclusive but I thought the missing eyes and tongue are post-mortem?

And it could have been a bear too.. I liked the moose idea because moose prints almost don't look like prints at all. Whereas bear prints are fairly obvious and would be preserved as well as human footprints.

Well my suspicions were aroused when I noticed the lack of detail in the Autopsy Report of Dubinina. Regarding the Tongue, all it said was that the Tongue was missing. What kind of Autopsy Report is that  ! ? Then nothing about the exact process of Decay that was alleged to have been responsible for the missing Eyes and Tongue.
[/quot

Sarapuk, I thought you said the tongue was surgically removed?

I dont remember saying that. The Tongue was missing, thats all we know. No detail.

I think u said this sarapuk.


Doesnt explain the missing Tongue or Flesh parts that looked like they had been surgically removed

Ah yes I mean the Flesh parts. Not meaning that the Tongue was surgically removed. I mean that there are Flesh parts of the Face that look like they may have been surgically removed similar to Animal Mutilation Cases. Note what looks like a circle around Dubininas Eye.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: RidgeWatcher on April 06, 2021, 08:27:24 PM
I was attacked by a moose in Bicentennial Park, Anchorage, Alaska. Two women on horses passed us on an icy trail while we were cross country skiing and told us they had just passed a large juvenile male moose and he was snorting and steaming mad. Smart people would have turned around, we didn't. Thankful it was quick but then it hung around and had me on the other side of 3 small spruce trees twice the size of broom handles, not much protection at all, finally it walked away still snorting. I never looked at it in the face, I kept looking down as they tell you to do to show the moose you are inferior and weaker, It's hard to run in cross country skis, I learned that day. While I went to the University of Alaska, Anchorage a man was killed ten feet from the busiest doorway on the huge campus. There was video on the news, moose get you on the ground and stomp you to death, it is a bloody mess and would definitely be very obvious, even different from a beer with all their claw and teeth marks.
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: KFinn on April 06, 2021, 08:45:08 PM
I was attacked by a moose in Bicentennial Park, Anchorage, Alaska. Two women on horses passed us on an icy trail while we were cross country skiing and told us they had just passed a large juvenile male moose and he was snorting and steaming mad. Smart people would have turned around, we didn't. Thankful it was quick but then it hung around and had me on the other side of 3 small spruce trees twice the size of broom handles, not much protection at all, finally it walked away still snorting. I never looked at it in the face, I kept looking down as they tell you to do to show the moose you are inferior and weaker, It's hard to run in cross country skis, I learned that day. While I went to the University of Alaska, Anchorage a man was killed ten feet from the busiest doorway on the huge campus. There was video on the news, moose get you on the ground and stomp you to death, it is a bloody mess and would definitely be very obvious, even different from a beer with all their claw and teeth marks.

I started to reply with "A moose once bit my sister..." But then you started talking about someone dying and I thought that Monty Python might not be the best response, lol!
Title: Re: Luda was lying down too
Post by: KFinn on April 06, 2021, 08:51:11 PM
You dont get a crushing chest injury standing up..

So, not that personally I'm sold on that theory at all, but consider a moose attack. Look at videos of what annoyed moose typically do... you will see how it's possible to get chest injury standing up.

Yes, it is possible to get chest injuries sitting and standing.  Flail rib fractures like Dubinina's and Zolotaryov's are most commonly associated with being seated in a car during head on collision.  But they can also be broken when standing against a hard surface while being hit with some of weight.  There are a number of ways that a person standing can obtain flail chest fractures.  We simply see them.most with vehicle collisions and from performing CPR (although in the case of CPR, the ribs fractured are lower on the bottom and accompanied by torn cartilage at the sternum.