Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Earthland on May 06, 2021, 11:28:01 AM

Title: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Earthland on May 06, 2021, 11:28:01 AM
I'm a novice and haven't looked through all the materials. From the outset, what struck me as most telling was that "footprints left by the group everyone seemed to descent with relative ease." It struck me, because from a psychological point of view, cutting the tent from inside and leaving it without proper clothes, and then strolling away with relative ease, are completely at odds with each other.

What does the "relative ease" mean exactly, and how can one deduce it from the footsteps? Does it mean that no-one had trouble with walking - ie, no-one was badly injured - or does it mean that there was no rushing away in panic, as if they were just talking a walk in a park?

If the latter is really true (and not only seemingly so, let's say, because the weather conditions were such that it was impossible to move in a different manner), that really leaves only two options in my view. Someone either forced them to leave and kept them under gunpoint, or there was some sort of group lunacy taking place.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: KFinn on May 06, 2021, 12:32:48 PM
Welcome to the forum!!

The footprints are largely interpreted as showing a controlled descent; they don't appear to be running or rushing, no one appeared injured or incapacitated to the point of dragging their legs or limping.  Although there are some hand prints believed to be seen in the photos, there didn't seem to be a lot of stumbling or falling in the area where the footprints were present. 

The fact that a controlled descent is at odds with a panicked exit from the tent is a key part of the mystery.  There are those who question whether the tent was cut by the Dyatlov group, whether they were forced down the ridge by others, whether they were under the influence of intended or unintended substances. 

Welcome to the Dyatlov incident!!!  I hope that you are able to find answers or, at the vey least, find valuable discussion!!
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Teddy on May 07, 2021, 12:55:23 AM
Welcome to the forum.
The footprints are very easy to explain if they are not left by Dyatlov group.
I have requested professional opinion (I paid for it dearly) from an independent forensic expert whose sworn conclusion is that the footprints are left by shod feet (wearing shoes).
His expert opinion is 20 something pages long. Here is the gist: https://dyatlovpass.com/1079#chapter23

P.S. Assoc. Prof. Dr. Lyudmil Georgiev is forensic expert traceologist who knows nothing about Dyatlov case.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Investigator on May 07, 2021, 01:59:05 PM
Here is an old post of mine:

"These incidents are not uncommon.  One guy wrote a series of books on the subject ("Missing 411," though "Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite" was better).  Have you read about the Chivrauy incident  (about a dozen years later)?  To me that is an example of even worse decision-making in a similar situation.  The Dyatlov tent began to collapse (probably due to ice/heavy snow buildup), or they though it would collapse, so they cut themselves out, secured the tent so it wouldn't blow away (along with all their stuff), and calmly walked down to the tree line, thinking they could survive with a fire (the fire in fact was said to be quite robust, lasting an hour or two).  One interesting question is if the idea of digging the "den" was the original plan or some sort of secondary one (the two guys who were dressed fairly well could have dug the den while the others started and got warmed up by the fire).  The problem is that when you do a lot of work in the cold (with minimal clothing), then stop to warm up, you're going to do a lot of sweating, and then if your heat source can't be maintained or isn't sufficient, you are in deep trouble!"
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: neni_cesty_zpet on September 03, 2022, 03:01:48 AM
Thanks to Teddy and traceologist, Dr. Lyudmil Georgiev, we know that traces were made with shod feet (wearing shoes).
There is no indication for hurry descent.

If they were camping on slope and not staying there for long time than I'd expect traces of similar appearance going up, made by the Dyatlov group.
Could they be overlooked on crime scene?  dunno1

This looks like properly clothed persons were dropped off by a single helicopter for whatever reason and walk down in normal pace.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 03, 2022, 01:37:36 PM
If a conspiracy, where are the shod prints leading to, not from the tent? Secondly, you don't leave incriminating evidence. In this case, easily found corpses. Out in the middle of nowhere with no one around, who wouldn't hide the bodies? Admittedly, they need to be dead first. They were found in places that suggest their deaths were not planned, nor done methodically.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: neni_cesty_zpet on September 07, 2022, 01:15:58 PM
Is it possible that footprints were made by early rescue group (wearing boots)?
Deployed by helicopter and going dont to find the missing tourists?

Most of Dyatlov group members 'forgot' their boots in the tent....It's damn puzzle.....and critical evidence, THE TENT is lost forever and cannot be reexaminated anymore  in more detail with modern methods bang1

Staging the tent on slope without taking the risk of being witnessed? Fastest way is to deploy by helicopter and leave the place - no footprints at all with some care.
Why going down on foot and leaving other traces?

One thing is probably sure, the footprints were not made by Dyatlov group or their were, but someone wearing boots were following them, stepping over them.
But where are footprints of any people going uphill ??  dunno1
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 07, 2022, 11:22:10 PM
To me what makes sense is the hikers skied to the tent site on 1079, set up camp and experienced a slab slip. They walked to the forest but underestimated both the distance and their personal stamina. When I think of footprints in snow, I remember how prints in the Himalayas were supposed to be Yeti  but were not. Were boot prints found in the snow? Certainly, if that's what you want them to be. Indeed, if they are boot prints, should there not be a collection of similar prints all around the tent, not just materializing out of nowhere and heading down hill?

The rescuers followed no ski tracks to the tent on 1079, yet they later on follow prints said to first scatter from the tent, regroup and proceed in an orderly way downslope. That is until the prints were obscured by snowdrift. Tenuous evidence at best, I think.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Manti on September 13, 2022, 08:45:46 AM
To me what makes sense is the hikers skied to the tent site on 1079, set up camp and experienced a slab slip. They walked to the forest but underestimated both the distance and their personal stamina. When I think of footprints in snow, I remember how prints in the Himalayas were supposed to be Yeti  but were not. Were boot prints found in the snow? Certainly, if that's what you want them to be. Indeed, if they are boot prints, should there not be a collection of similar prints all around the tent, not just materializing out of nowhere and heading down hill?

The rescuers followed no ski tracks to the tent on 1079, yet they later on follow prints said to first scatter from the tent, regroup and proceed in an orderly way downslope. That is until the prints were obscured by snowdrift. Tenuous evidence at best, I think.

I mostly agree with this but think that no slab slip is required. Instead, they left the tent for some other reason. Among the many other corcumstances that seem to rule it out, there's one less often mentioned: there is no slab or piece of snow missing from above the tent. In fact the snow cover seems intact and we do have the benefit of some high quality contemporary photographs showing it.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 13, 2022, 09:52:52 PM
Manti, I thought the discovery of the tent photo showed the tent and immediate area covered in block ice. Does that not suggest a slab slide? If you have better imagery, please post that in your response. Appreciated.

I believe when the Soviet authorities reopened the investigation recently, they were under scrutiny internationally. I believe their conclusion of a slab slip had to be based on good evidence, else they would have been roundly condemned as poseurs.

If we look at the tragedy at face value, we see a team of hikers who took an arduous uphill ski hike in order to avoid weaving through trees in the woods because there was no trail to follow. Therefore, they used line of sight to Otorten. Keeping to the high ground makes tactical sense. They elected to do a cold camp for a night because carrying firewood was extra weight and wet. The best practice would be to level the tent and dig a ledge as a windbreak. This they did. Then at some point in time, the ledge collapsed. They could not remain there and fled to the forest overnight. We all know what followed. To me, it seems that big question is why they left the tent, It was crushed. Let's see those photos and chat about this a bit more.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 14, 2022, 03:56:32 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: neni_cesty_zpet on September 14, 2022, 09:14:02 AM
The photo shows entrance blocked with packed snow. Doing several cuts to tent is difficult to understand for me....One escape cut is much easier to repair later, after all,
I they were prepared to repair tent on trips.

Slow descent was possibly an effort to not cause additional slides. Where were the tourists injured? In the tent? Lyuda's died 10-20 minutes after sustaining the injury,
unable to make such long walk...
It's possible that they were doing something near the cedar, freezing, limbs getting numb and someone/something fell onto them. After all, some branches were found broken to some height...

If there were some evidence of foul play in tent's fabric, they would not let UPI keep it for long years, possibly doing some research on their own, independently of
official examination....

If avalanche was the initial accident then there was also later a second one that was fatal. That's my opinion.

Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 14, 2022, 09:53:49 AM
Пятна Вишневского и отогретые обморожения 3-4 степени говорят о том, что первая пятёрка после ухода из палатки с 13 до 15 часов дня (время происшествия) замерзала несколько часов. За эти несколько часов сильно похолодало - прошёл холодный атмосферный фронт. В Бурмантово в 19 часов уже было -10 градусов. На перевале похолодало ещё на несколько часов раньше. Потому что атмосферный фронт двигался от перевала к Бурмантово (75 км.) со скоростью 20-30 км/час.

Другие люди после смерти дятловцев, а значит после похолодания могли оставить следы уже только из спрессованного, но не подтаявшего и обледеневшего снега, которые раздуло бы за день-два (доказано в зимней экспедиции 2013 года):
Quote
На этом фото - следы, которые оставили мы по прилете на перевал. Прошлись по снежному насту. В унтах. А через два дня обнаружили на этом же месте до боли знакомые столбики. Их выдул ветер. Температура в те дни была от минус 28 до минус 12. Теперь мы точно знаем, такие следы могут образоваться при низких температурах, и не важно, какие это отпечатки - обуви или босых ног. Но уже через день следы исчезли под действием вьюги. Как могли почти месяц сохраняться следовые столбики от ног дятловцев на склоне горы, где беспрестанно пурга и ветер?

https://www.kp.ru/daily/26054/2965513/

Это и является доказательством того, что обледеневшие следы-столбики, какими бы они ни были, могли оставить только дятловцы в период потепления перед холодным атмосферным фронтом.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 15, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
Hi Charles,

I think the photo of the tent you have shown is after the discovery of it. Some of what we see is not how it was found. No two snow slides/, slips are the same and it would depend on the context . If it was a slow slide of snow perceived as more snow to follow.

Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 15, 2022, 05:16:54 PM
Help me out here. When I look at the picture of the rescuers discovery of the tent, I see two vertical skis.  My immediate interpretation is that the tent was suspended between them. So the question becomes,"How could those things stay upright when the snow covered the tent from a sideways snow slide?" They should have been pushed over and flattened. Then, I look again. For the life of me I think I see the right hand ski set in the snow behind the tent!  Do you see that too? I have a very different idea about what those skis represent. Your thoughts please.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 15, 2022, 10:17:20 PM
Hi GlennM

There is discussion on a previous thread regarding the tent, ski's and who is in the photo. If I remember correctly , this is a day or so after its discovery. Ski's , along with the ice axe were used to move snow off the tent. The snow was reported to be firn in its nature. There was debate if these skis were the searchers or of they had been moved at that point.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 16, 2022, 03:47:51 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 16, 2022, 03:05:30 PM
Thanks Charles,

There is a long discussion abut the photos of the tent.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 16, 2022, 09:27:09 PM
Charles and Ziljoe,

Charles, you are appreciated.  Your answer certainly clarifies the matter of the placement of the skis. Too, the description of the interior of the tent does not suggest to me that there was chaos.,I would expect that if a slab slip crushed the tent, that the hikers would have been climbing over each other and grabbing gear before getting out of the tent. The description of the interior of the tent certainly could lead one to suppose the whole thing was an elaborate set piece. The problem with that is if conspirators were trying to obfuscate the truth, they would have cluttered the tent so as to make it believable.

I can accept the rescuers knifed their way into the tent. I can accept the hikers knifed their way out of the tent.

When found, the rescuers observed packed snow on the tent that required excavation.  For me, a slab slip at night coupled with the hikers misjudging the distance to the woods still makes more sense than some coverup, vendetta or random terrorism perpetrated on kids out in the woods. Will we ever know?
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 12:59:58 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 02:13:33 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 09:37:02 AM
Charles, how do we know that a hiker exited the tent with an ice ax? To me, it would be logical to leave the ice ax out side the tent at the entrance .
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 09:57:46 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 10:15:39 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 10:25:06 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 10:42:43 AM
Thanks Charles, I was aware of the ice axe in the photos. I think it shows up on one of the photos of them on the lorry/bus too.

I have an ice axe of my late father's which is the onger type.( Just like your reference photos)  I would guess it is the long version due to the type of trek they were doing. The shorter ones are used more for climbing, a hammer head for putting in climbing attachments and the spike for climbing/ digging foot steps.

Just my opinion, however , you have sent me on an interesting journey .
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 10:56:01 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Charles,

It could be, difficult to tell but this photo was taken the day after Sharavin found the tent and used the ax to enter the tent?

It might be the lower side of the tent canvas but the shadows certainly make it look like it's raised and the profile is similar to an ice ax.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 11:12:42 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 11:14:30 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 11:23:36 AM
Sorry Ziljoe, I deleted reply #26, not fast enough. My idea was wrong as you noticed, you were right about the shadow. Really sorry.

To be honest, your idea has some merit....
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 11:37:36 AM
Charles,

I can't  ascertain the length of the ice axe from the photos. Usually the ice axe head would be mounted at the base of the back pack through a loop then filpped up 180 degree's with a simple strap. For ease of access etc. Given the length of the exposed shaft in the photos where we can see it , if it was a short ice ax it would flop about ? If that makes sense.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 11:49:52 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 12:22:23 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 12:45:51 PM
Delete d
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 17, 2022, 02:41:28 PM


Interestingly , Sharavin  says a number of things regarding the tent and the footprints .

MIHAIL SHARAVIN ANSWERS QUESTIONS FROM MEMBERS OF THE DYATLOV PASS GROUP OF VKONTAKTE


M.Sharavin: We weren't so vulgar as to chop and eat the loin in the tent we found. The knife is not ours, we did not cut the loin. Slobtsov and I found the loin cut into slices and the piece remaining after cutting, as well as the skins from the already eaten pieces when we penetrated into the tent through the "top" on February 26 ,inmediately after its discovery. Of course, there could be no talk of eating and drinking alcohol in the tent. A flask with alcohol, which we found in a bucket, we took with us to the base camp and drank at a common table, remembering the guys.

( Interesting that Sharavin uses the word "penetrated "and from the top regarding his search of the tent on the 26th.  Sharavin states that they didn't enter through the entrance of the tent , nor does he state they entered the tent from the underside, neither does he mention the finding the tent with cuts? But yet they do a reasonable search of the contents of the tent, enough to find a camera, vodka, search under blankets and look into rucksacks etc. Food for thought....)

Question: Why didn't you look into the tent through the entrance?

M.Sharavin: Why didn't we enter the tent through the "entrance"? Imagine a pole standing up, and immediately after the ridge part descending almost vertically down. Only the front pole stood vertically. The entire length of the tent was covered with 200 mm thick firn snow. Until the snow is removed from the roof, it will still not be possible to get into the tent. There was nothing to be seen through the entrance. In addition, I wanted to find out if there are bodies in the tent. Strange, but we were not warned about how we should behave in such a situation. But when the canvas of the tent was cleared, it became evident that there was no one inside."



Question:Tell us, is this how you found the tent? Or has something in the picture changed already? If so, what exactly is different form how you found it?


It was you and Boris Slobtsov who dug up the tent. Or was it someone else that dug up the tent after you?

Particularly interested in where, in what place was the ice ax. If possible, mark its position on the photo. Or describe in detail so that we can understand from the photo where he was. Where did you yanked it out from?

M.Sharavin: This photo is taken on February 27 by a someone from Karelin's group, who were led to the tent by Yuri Koptelov. He is in the photo. The snow was dug up by us the day before. The skis were set after us, initially they were in front of the tent, to the left of Koptelov. And a little to the right of Koptelov, we initially found an ice ax, in front of the entrance to the tent, which we used when chopping up the snow that was on top the tent. I don't find any other differences.

( The snow was moved on the 26)

Question: Mihail Petrovich, when you approached the tent, did you personally see any items scattered around the tent? Slobtsov talked about some kind of slippers, ski caps...

M.Sharavin: I did not notice any slippers when I approached the tent. Slobtsov maybe recollecting belongings that he saw the very next day. After all, he wrote the testimony one month later.

Question: regarding the blankets in the tent. Were they in a pile, or spread out? Can you maybe remember the color of some blanket?

M.Sharavin: The blankets in the tent were mostly spread out. Most of them were brown.

( It was reported that the blankets were found in a frozen ball also?)

Question: When you saw the blankets spread out in the tent, did you look under them?

M.Sharavin: Yes, we looked under the blankets in one place to make sure that there were empty backpacks on the bottom of the tent.

Question: Did you return everything that you took from the tent on February 26, taking into account that you drunk the flask before the arrival of the investigator?

M.Sharavin: The empty flask was returned to the tent on the 27th, and the rest - a diary and money, possibly returned to the investigator.

(Sharavin found a diary, flask and money  on the 26th)

Question: How dense was the snow on the tent that you had to chop it up with an ice ax? Do you agree that the two skis were not set up as the center ridgepoles of the tent?

M.Sharavin: The snow on top of the tent was really so hard that it had to be chopped off with an ice axe. And the skis were in front of the tent and were not used as ridgepoles.

Question: About the rope at the entrance - did it tie the skate of the entrance with skis or an ice axe, or tied it to another pole?

M.Sharavin: I can't say anything about a rope. I don't remember such.


Question: Boris Slobtsov said in an interview that you took off your skis and walked in boots down the slope, almost following the very tracks on the slope. Do you think that the trace from the heel, which was later discovered by witnesses, could have been left by you, i.e. unintentionally left by your boots?

M.Sharavin: When we approached the tent, we really walked without skis, but our boots did not leave marks on the firn snow. In addition, footprints in boots were observed in the general track of all footprints left by the Dyatlov group ... they protruded above the surface of firn snow



M Sharavin:"We found the ice ax on the 26th and used it to free the tent from the snow. We did not move the skis on the 26th. But in a photo taken the next day and attributed to Brusnitsyn, these skis are next to the front and back stands of the tent. We did not move the skis there and it is not clear to us who did it. Moreover, Brusnitsyn on the 27th could not have taken take this picture, since he was at the base camp on the other side of the pass."

(However Slobtsov Boris Efimovich statement says the following)

Sheet 298

PROTOCOL
witness testimony

Near the entrance of the tent on the snow
an ice ax was stuck
, on the canvas of the tent, in the snow lay a pocket flashlight, Chinese make, which, as it was subsequently established, belonged to Dyatlov. It was strange that while there was a layer of snow let say 5-10 cm thick under the flashlight, there was no snow on top of it, and it was snowed slightly on either side. I took the flashlight first and found that it was not turned on. When I turned on it lit. I did not notice that day, but then I heard from other people involved in the search that there was a trace of urine in the snow near the tent.
In the immediate vicinity of the tent there were no footprints. Approximately 15-20 m from the tent in the direction where the bodies were subsequently discovered, footprints of the people's feet coming from the tent were visible on the snow, and it was evident that the tracks were left by the feet of a person without shoes in felt boots (valenki). The tracks protruded above the surrounding surface of the snow, for near the tracks the snow was blown out by the wind.
From the tent in the direction of the wind, i.e. in the direction where there were traces of people's feet, at a distance of about 0.5-1 m, we found several slippers from different pairs, and ski caps and other small objects were scattered. I do not remember and did not pay attention to how many people were the footprints from, but it should be noted that the tracks were initially together, next to each other, and the distant tracks diverged, but now I don't remember how they parted.
On February 26, 1959, we removed the snow from over the tent and made sure that there were no people inside, and we didn't touch the items that were in the tent. I was with student Sharavin. The items were taken out of the tent on February 27 and 28, 1959, when student Brusnitsyn and other searchers were present.



When on 26.2.59 I looked in the tent I saw the following: the tent itself was torn, there was food in a bucket near the entrance, there was a liquid in a flask - alcohol or vodka, there were food supplies in bags at the feet, the blankets were unfolded, under the blankets spread out were quilted jackets, storm jackets, and under them backpacks were laid on the floor. At the entrance hung Slobodin's jacket, in whose breast pocket were found about 800 rubles. In the tent, apparently, a sheet was hung, which was torn and part of it protruded outward.

_________________________________________

It almost seems that someone else went to the tent between the 26th and 27th . I know I need to read more of the statements but I think Slobtsov Boris was the first to mention the tent was torn. If the tent was found in the state we are familiar with in the examination office , why would Sharavin ,who penetrated the tent from the top ,not say, that once they had cleared the snow they  found the tent cut?, I would also add that it looks more than just "torn" , more like shredded. I do wonder if the group that discovered the tent maybe thought to help themselves to the vodka and money. Sharavin states it was "Strange, but we were not warned about how we should behave in such a situation". I believe he means they were given no instruction on what to do if they found anything.

Slobtsov Boris says they didn't touch the items in the tent but Sharavin says they took the vodka( and drunk it) along with money , a camera and mentions taking a diary and taking them to the base camp, then returning the flask on the 27th. Maybe they got told off for taking stuff.

Sharavin also notes that they walked around the tent but left no prints as the snow was so hard. All very mind boggling as it shows the vast variety of snow conditions and annoying contradictions with all the statements.
Many of these statements may be errors in memory and as always confuse the case even more.....



 
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on September 17, 2022, 03:26:18 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 18, 2022, 05:29:51 PM
Gentlemen, given the discussion regarding the ice axe and knowing their state of dress, are you supposing the hikers were ordered out of their tent and the ice axe was grabbed as a weapon? I would think that if the group were harassed,  all cutting tools would be stripped from them prior to the downslope march. Again, for me, these details point to a  reasonable reaction to a natural event under dire weather conditions forcing emergency action by the group, which ultimately did not work.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 19, 2022, 01:22:23 AM
Hi GlennM

I think the ice axe was stored where it was found and reported to be. Outside the tent. Possibly for toilet duties , clearing the tent etc. No one's going to steal it.

I would have also thought that they would all have been forced to discard coats at hats and felt boots too. Especially Zolotaryov.



Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on September 19, 2022, 05:45:04 PM
I get the sense that Teddy is regarding all of our speculation with a bit of amusement from the high ground. She has travelled, invested in forensic analysis and makes lucid and interesting posts. I think her next communication will have something definitive.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on September 19, 2022, 06:03:25 PM
GlennM, sounds good to me. I think the forum is getting a bit to aggressive for some and will put others off posting.

We could do with a new fact from myth page that new members could quickly read ? 

We are just regurgitating much of what has been discussed for years now. Teddy has a new angle and I'm watching the posts on u tube with intrigue.




Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on October 02, 2022, 02:59:44 PM
According to the photos, Zolotaryov carried an ice axe in his bacpack:

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-10.jpg)

But it was not of the long type. Here, we can compare the length of his ice axe with the length of the ski poles:

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-08.jpg)

And maybe there was a second ice axe, here in the first backpack on the left:

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-03.jpg)

and here on the left on the stairs:

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-01.jpg)

But if it was an ice axe, it's not as obvious as for Zolotaryov's backpack.

If the ice axe was of the shorter type, it had to be kept inside the tent, not to be covered with snow during the night, and risking to be  forgotten or lost.

Hi Charles Here's  the photo in the bus. It looks like the longer type to me.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/B-01.jpg
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on October 02, 2022, 03:11:52 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Star man on November 13, 2022, 02:25:33 PM
The scene at the tent on Kholat is just nonsense.  That is, nothing makes sense.  The foot prints were not subjected to forensic study during the investigation.  It's unlikely that they were made by the Dyatlov group.  It's unlikely they ever pitched the tent there.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on November 13, 2022, 03:53:23 PM
Hello all, I believe there is evidence of a ski trail from the cache(labaz) heading toward the tent site at elevation  880. I understand the rescue party located those ski tracks and used them for a guide. The tracks did not lead directly to the tent apparantly obliterated by windswept conditions. It did get the rescuers to the outlier rock and from there the tent was discovered. At least that is what I understand to be true.

I admire Teddy for investing in a forensic analysis of the snow imprints, but you would expect these same boot prints to be all around the tent. They are not. What it does hint at is that the blown snow that likely precipitated the slab slip that collapsed the tent scoured the slope. Consider too that in such a fierce wind, a fire built at the cedar would not be of much use. It would be insufficiently warm and would use the scant fuel quickly.

If the Hikers fought their way uphill and elected to make a cold camp for the night at 880, then everything that happened thereafter is attributable to Nature. Human intervention need not be a causative factor. Bad things happen to good people.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ehtnisba on November 13, 2022, 10:50:24 PM
And Zolotaryov with a useless ice axe and a feather pinned on his hat, ready for "the adventure"... after what he experienced during WWII... it makes me like him. I find this childish coquetry quite touching, knowing the hell he previously went through. And "Krokodil" magazine in his backpack also. And the way a bit stupid he talked to the schoolchildren... And how he was mocked by the loggers (they intuitively understood he was escaping reality and mocked him from the point of view of loggers who thought they knew "the real thing", but they were young and they didn't experience war, and they couldn't imagine the wounds and scars left on a soul)... I know there was some unclear part in his biography, but now, with the possibility of bringing a useless ice axe, the type used for alpine climbing, in the soft reliefs of the Urals, I see another face of the man... Maybe desiring to come back to the time of innocence, to a time before the ugliest aspects of human life.
lol2 Krokodil in his backpack , feather and alpine ax 😆😆😆😆😆 I love this sarcastic decimation of all " odd" ideas
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on November 16, 2022, 07:01:30 AM
And Zolotaryov with a useless ice axe and a feather pinned on his hat, ready for "the adventure"... after what he experienced during WWII... it makes me like him. I find this childish coquetry quite touching, knowing the hell he previously went through. And "Krokodil" magazine in his backpack also. And the way a bit stupid he talked to the schoolchildren... And how he was mocked by the loggers (they intuitively understood he was escaping reality and mocked him from the point of view of loggers who thought they knew "the real thing", but they were young and they didn't experience war, and they couldn't imagine the wounds and scars left on a soul)... I know there was some unclear part in his biography, but now, with the possibility of bringing a useless ice axe, the type used for alpine climbing, in the soft reliefs of the Urals, I see another face of the man... Maybe desiring to come back to the time of innocence, to a time before the ugliest aspects of human life.

Why was his ice axe useless ?
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 16, 2022, 09:21:29 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on November 16, 2022, 12:26:35 PM
And Zolotaryov with a useless ice axe and a feather pinned on his hat, ready for "the adventure"... after what he experienced during WWII... it makes me like him. I find this childish coquetry quite touching, knowing the hell he previously went through. And "Krokodil" magazine in his backpack also. And the way a bit stupid he talked to the schoolchildren... And how he was mocked by the loggers (they intuitively understood he was escaping reality and mocked him from the point of view of loggers who thought they knew "the real thing", but they were young and they didn't experience war, and they couldn't imagine the wounds and scars left on a soul)... I know there was some unclear part in his biography, but now, with the possibility of bringing a useless ice axe, the type used for alpine climbing, in the soft reliefs of the Urals, I see another face of the man... Maybe desiring to come back to the time of innocence, to a time before the ugliest aspects of human life.

Why was his ice axe useless ?

The snow was also hard . I would think it sensible to take along an ice axe. It has multiple uses , especially when climbing any slopes,digging hard ground or breaking ice to find water. . The searchers also took ice axes to the area. Better to have the tools you might need than not. Far from useless....
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 16, 2022, 04:56:51 PM
Ледоруб был нужен для залезания на скалы на вершинах гор для снятия чужих записок и оставления своих.

http://meridian.perm.ru/03_reports/manpupiner2009/img/0097.jpg
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 17, 2022, 07:09:33 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on November 17, 2022, 09:49:49 PM
The post quoting MIHAIL SHARAVIN makes it clear to me that the tent was lived in prior to abandonment. If the tent were relocated from the forest to the slope, there are too many idiosyncrasies to convince me that it was staged. Nobody is that good! 

Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Star man on November 18, 2022, 03:53:24 PM
The post quoting MIHAIL SHARAVIN makes it clear to me that the tent was lived in prior to abandonment. If the tent were relocated from the forest to the slope, there are too many idiosyncrasies to convince me that it was staged. Nobody is that good!

The staging of the tent is sloppy imo.  This is why the DPI is such a mystery.  The tent doesn't make sense.  It's far too orderly inside the tent.  If the occupants had been scrambling to escape by cutting and tearing the tent then they would likely have disturbed the contents of tent much more.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on November 18, 2022, 06:59:09 PM
Hello all,

The tent was discovered with the front flap closed. It was deep in snow.

If the hikers were rousted out by troublemakers, would anyone take the time to button up the tent flap? No. Why? The troublemakers did not expect them to return, so what did it matter if the tent was opened or closed?

If the hikers left of their own accord, would they button up the tent and at the same time leave their shoes inside? No. Why? Illogical.

If the hikers were trapped in a closed tent that suffered a collapse would they try to leave through a buttoned front flap? No, Why? Breathing, bleeding, broken bones and burns take priority over decorum.

Did the hikers cut their way out of the tent in response to external human threats? No. Why? Because, " if you want me, come in and get me!"

I am making a flap about the flap, but nine people trapped in close quarters under a crush of snow are going to cut their way free. What they did next is evidenced by where they went and where they succumbed to the elements.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 19, 2022, 11:31:47 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on November 20, 2022, 05:21:14 PM
Green fairy= absinthe. The subnrosa implication is that the DPI investigator is hallucinating. Has an aspersion been cast? If so, this needs moderation.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on November 21, 2022, 12:59:19 AM
All very bohemian.......

Apparently absinthe rose to great popularity as an alcoholic drink in late 19th- and early 20th-century France, particularly among Parisian artists and writers.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 23, 2022, 09:33:49 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on November 23, 2022, 02:39:47 PM
Green fairy= absinthe. The subnrosa implication is that the DPI investigator is hallucinating. Has an aspersion been cast? If so, this needs moderation.

All very bohemian.......

Apparently absinthe rose to great popularity as an alcoholic drink in late 19th- and early 20th-century France, particularly among Parisian artists and writers.

I was writing to Ehtnisba, addressing her as "Dear green fairy", nothing extraordinary here: Ehtnisba is an anagram of Absinthe. No need to lose your nerves...





What does Ehtnisba mean Charles?
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 23, 2022, 03:02:26 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ziljoe on November 23, 2022, 03:58:18 PM

a=a
ba=ab
sba=abs
isba=absi
nisba=absin
tnisba=absint
htnsiba=absinth
ehtnisba=absinthe


shock1

My Goodness! It was an anagram!







It's a word spelt backwards. , I don't think that's an anagram.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 23, 2022, 04:36:33 PM
 nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ehtnisba on November 27, 2022, 07:19:24 AM
Dear green fairy,

And Zolotaryov with a useless ice axe and a feather pinned on his hat, ready for "the adventure"... after what he experienced during WWII... it makes me like him. I find this childish coquetry quite touching, knowing the hell he previously went through. And "Krokodil" magazine in his backpack also. And the way a bit stupid he talked to the schoolchildren... And how he was mocked by the loggers (they intuitively understood he was escaping reality and mocked him from the point of view of loggers who thought they knew "the real thing", but they were young and they didn't experience war, and they couldn't imagine the wounds and scars left on a soul)... I know there was some unclear part in his biography, but now, with the possibility of bringing a useless ice axe, the type used for alpine climbing, in the soft reliefs of the Urals, I see another face of the man... Maybe desiring to come back to the time of innocence, to a time before the ugliest aspects of human life.
lol2 Krokodil in his backpack , feather and alpine ax 😆😆😆😆😆 I love this sarcastic decimation of all " odd" ideas

I was not sarcastic, I really began to like Zolotaryov because of his childish coquetry. For the same reason I like Ognev who "had to take the killed party cook on a reindeer sled from Man-Nyays to Ivdel and to bury her there" and Alikin who "served as a pilot, was shot down near Smolensk, after leaving the encirclement he was arrested on suspicion of collaborating with the Germans. He served time in the Far East and Kolyma, several times he unsuccessfully tried to escape. After his release in 1953, he returned to the Urals. Soon he abandoned everything and started reclusive life in taiga on the Kutim River where he was engaged in hunting and fishing." I like them for looking for ways to escape the nightmare of the life under the totalitarian regime. Zolotaryov, Ognev and Alikin found their own path to other dimensions.

Vladimir Vysotsky wrote beautiful songs about escaping the soviet ugliness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWGRyPQUxs

"Having fenced off our freedom with their flags" sang Vysotsky, "we can't cross beyond the flags", "But I came out of obedience"... and "the hunters are left with nothing". Zolotaryov, Ognev and Alikin were trying to escape each one in his own way. I like them a lot for their attempts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz2u4HvVkEM

When dozing off, I see, at night, ugly crimes where men bleed.
Poor me, poor me! The wineskin is full to bursting,
At dawn, how bitter is the taste of damned wine!
Go, spend all my money, because I'll be thirsty today.


Chorus:
Nothing's right, nothing's right anymore
to live like a man, like a man,
like an upright man.
Nothing's right anymore to live like a man should.


In all the bottomless pothouses where I burry myself every night,
I am the emperor of buffoons, the brother of anybody,
I go vomit my repentance on the ground in front of the tabernacles
But how to pray in the smoke and incense of the deacons?


Chorus

And like an old wolf in the woods, fleeing the worst,
I remained alone with myself, by the mountains where we can breath.
Here I wanted to find a new air, higher
,
But from far away, who can tell a true fir from a fake fir?


Chorus
 
Far from any carousel, I live my life and trace my path in the snow
So that he could find me, the friend who follows me far from any cortege.
Ah come, stand up, come here, at the front and behind!
We have nothing but fake friends, fake lovers, fake brothers.


Do you see the witches here and there, in the moving forest?
Do you see the headsman over there with his red coat?
Nothing goes well here on our dirt roads
But I fear that the afterlife look like a hell.


Chorus


And in the song The end of the ball (La fin du bal), Vysotsky sang these lines: He wrote as if to get out of a trap (Il écrivait comme on se sort d'un piège) and ... the escapee who didn't reach his goal (l'évadé qui n'aura pas atteint son but).

So, yes, "Krokodil in his backpack, feather and alpine ax", Zolotaryov's childish dream was worth any escape to other parallel dimensions.

Well I also like Zolotaryov, while everybody is questioning his life and  telling he servived WWii by hiding. Well, even surviving by hiding is not little of a doing . I hate how he dies there after already has survived once being thrown to secure death.
He can't even rest in his death being exhumed to check was this him. Also the theories of him going berserk and killing all and himself or him being double agent etc.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ehtnisba on November 27, 2022, 07:22:45 AM
Green fairy= absinthe. The subnrosa implication is that the DPI investigator is hallucinating. Has an aspersion been cast? If so, this needs moderation.

All very bohemian.......

Apparently absinthe rose to great popularity as an alcoholic drink in late 19th- and early 20th-century France, particularly among Parisian artists and writers.

I was writing to Ehtnisba, addressing her as "Dear green fairy", nothing extraordinary here: Ehtnisba is an anagram of Absinthe. No need to lose your nerves...





What does Ehtnisba mean Charles?

Absinthe spelt backwards :) he got it correct .
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Ehtnisba on November 27, 2022, 07:24:42 AM

a=a
ba=ab
sba=abs
isba=absi
nisba=absin
tnisba=absint
htnsiba=absinth
ehtnisba=absinthe


shock1

My Goodness! It was an anagram!

Just backwards , nothing too secret, but obviously only you read it correctly
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on November 27, 2022, 03:37:47 PM

If the latter is really true (and not only seemingly so, let's say, because the weather conditions were such that it was impossible to move in a different manner), that really leaves only two options in my view. Someone either forced them to leave and kept them under gunpoint, or there was some sort of group lunacy taking place.


It should be completely clear, even superabundantly clear, that the nine students were forced out from their tent at gunpoint, because the attackers wanted them to freeze to death. If there had not been a relatively mild temperature of around -15C during the early evening, this would have been the perfect killing mission.

The attackers must have cut the tent, either from the inside or the outside. There is nothing to indicate that the nine left the tent through the cuts in the tent.

The injuries sustained by the students are all consistent with an attack by special forces trained in close combat.

These nine unfortunates simply were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Most telling of all is the obvious cover-ups by the Russian government. Every knowledgeable person knew and knows that there was no avalanche in the area. Yet the Russian authorities insist that they all died from an avalanche. What does that tell us?

The Russian authorities knew very well what happened. Very, very well.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on November 27, 2022, 05:45:09 PM
All behavior is motivated. Care to speculate on that, please.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 27, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 28, 2022, 02:07:15 AM
The Russian authorities knew very well what happened. Very, very well.
Русофоб изо всех сил старается советское правительство назвать русским. Аж из штанов выпрыгивает.
1959 году советское правительство было украинским. Ибо главарь Хрущёв к 1959 году полностью превратился в украинца. Даже стал носить рубаху - "вышиванку":

https://yandex.ru/images/search?from=tabbar&text=%D1%85%D1%80%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%B2%20%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0

https://m.politnavigator.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/C2tvng5WgAQHFoG.jpg

https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D0%B2%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D1%84%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8B&from=tabbar

Так что правильно говорить, что дятловцев убило украинское правительство.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on November 28, 2022, 04:19:15 AM
@ Per Inge Oestmoen

SMART BUT DUBIOUS: "because the attackers wanted them to freeze to death. If there had not been a relatively mild temperature of around -15C during the early evening, this would have been the perfect killing mission."



Not at all dubious: It was imperative that the nine students, who probably became witnesses to something ordinary citizens were not supposed to know about, were killed in such a way as to make it seem like the result of accidents. They were resourceful people who had resourceful and probably influential relatives and friends, and to kill them openly would have created political unrest. For that reason, an "accident" had to be orchestrated.

To force them out in the cold was the most intelligent way to ensure their death, since people who are not properly dressed will perish soon in the cold. It would have the perfect mission if it had been just ten degrees colder during the fateful night.

As for the objects found near the cuts, these objects may have found their way out as a result of the cuts or been thrown by the attackers in the process of cutting the tent. But we have no way to tell. What we know is that the nine victims left the tent area in an orderly manner, consistent with a scenario wherein they were marched away in a controlled manner at gunpoint. They did not flee, they were calmly forced away in insufficient clothing for the winter.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Charles on November 28, 2022, 04:33:53 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 28, 2022, 07:08:03 AM
Температуры в Бурмантово (75 км. от перевала) 1 февраля 1959 года по часам:

1   -5,4 °C
7   -5,9 °C
13 -6,3 °C
19 -10,2 °C

Температуры в Ивделе (128 км. от перевала):
http://thermo.karelia.ru/weather/w_history.php?town=ivd&month=2&year=1959

Quote
Холодный фронт первого рода (ХФ-1р) – это фронт, перемещающийся со скоростью 20 – 30 км/ч. Холодный воздух, подтекая клином под теплый, вытесняет его вверх...
https://studopedia.ru/3_176269_atmosfernie-fronti.html

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68954
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 03:00:25 AM
I'm a novice and haven't looked through all the materials. From the outset, what struck me as most telling was that "footprints left by the group everyone seemed to descent with relative ease." It struck me, because from a psychological point of view, cutting the tent from inside and leaving it without proper clothes, and then strolling away with relative ease, are completely at odds with each other.

What does the "relative ease" mean exactly, and how can one deduce it from the footsteps? Does it mean that no-one had trouble with walking - ie, no-one was badly injured - or does it mean that there was no rushing away in panic, as if they were just talking a walk in a park?

If the latter is really true (and not only seemingly so, let's say, because the weather conditions were such that it was impossible to move in a different manner), that really leaves only two options in my view. Someone either forced them to leave and kept them under gunpoint, or there was some sort of group lunacy taking place.
Yes, there is definitely an attack on the group. Otherwise, 9 competent people in their right mind would not go for a walk in the forest in the possible darkness of -20 degrees in a semi-naked state! Even a madman alone wouldn't do it! There are only two logical options. 1. Attack of a group of armed people 2. An unknown coercive Force. The second option seems more likely due to the course of the event and the wounds of the youth and the lack of hiding of the bodies.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 03:24:22 AM
I think the way things are going is: Since it was late that day, the group planned to go down to the forest and set up camp. Here they were subjected to harassment by unknown coercive force as they descended into the forest. These harassments increased in the forest. And the group decided to climb the mountain again to get rid of these harassments. Because they had not been harassed before while on the mountain. So they thought of the mountain as a safe haven. Whatever it was, it was a forest-dwelling creature to them. But this unknown Force followed them on the mountain!. And shortly after entering the tent (20-60 minutes in my opinion)
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 03:35:08 AM
The unknown force did not suddenly attack them. Because if there was a sudden attack, the peepholes in the tent would not have been made. So the unknown force appeared to them from a distance. In the night, the unknown power must be luminous. In order to notice something outside in the dark inside the tent, that thing has to shine. They noticed the light and made the peepholes in the tent.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 03:42:10 AM
And they tried to look at him in amazement and fear. And the more they looked, the more frightened they became. Because it was very different. It was unlike anything they had seen in the world before. That's why they couldn't make the necessary preparations as the unknown Power was coming towards the tent. Because they couldn't take their eyes off him. But Semyon and his friend prepared.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 03:52:06 AM
I think it must have taken him about a minute to get to the tent. The Unknown Force wanted to get them out of the tent and into the forest. And forced them out. This fight must have taken a long time. The group must have resisted as best they could. Because the number and angles of the tears in the tent are proof of this. So they didn't give up so easily. They resisted. But in the end they had to give up. I think this fight must have lasted 1-2 minutes. The tent must be torn both inside and out. After all, there was a struggle.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 04:00:30 AM
Indeed, the group must have fought well despite being so scared. Because they were considered natural born professionals. And the group was in solidarity, including Semyon. Semyon was also respected as an older brother. And they calmly exited the tent without panic. Because panic and haste would make them sweat and it would be the end of them!!! So they tried to act professionally and act calmly and not panic. And despite everything, they hoped that they could survive. Because they were not sure that the unknown force would kill them. But the unknown Force couldn't keep them alive anymore!!!
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: sarapuk on December 06, 2022, 02:56:57 PM
Indeed, the group must have fought well despite being so scared. Because they were considered natural born professionals. And the group was in solidarity, including Semyon. Semyon was also respected as an older brother. And they calmly exited the tent without panic. Because panic and haste would make them sweat and it would be the end of them!!! So they tried to act professionally and act calmly and not panic. And despite everything, they hoped that they could survive. Because they were not sure that the unknown force would kill them. But the unknown Force couldn't keep them alive anymore!!!

Unknown Force is probably what some of the searchers who found the bodies put it down to. But they would have been told to keep quiet and the case was closed very quickly and the area sealed off for several years.
Title: Re: The footprints, the footprints ...
Post by: GlennM on December 06, 2022, 03:50:54 PM
They get attacked. They die. Satisfied, the attacker leaves. Later, Mansi come across remains. They say nothing. Someone else comes along, digs up the bodies. They get thawed, washed and dressed at the morgue. Someone else says put them back the way you found them. OK.. Later, college kids find a few bodies. Some are dressed funny. Some are flipped around. They get autopsied. Still later, more bodies are found. The same happens to them. With difficulty, all bodies get flown home.Some are buried in one place, some in another. One may not be buried where we think at all. Can't pin it on Mansi. Can't pin it on geologists. Can't pin it on prisoners. Can't pin it on military. Can't pin it on anyone. The whole matter is hurriedly concluded. It and the region are off limits for varying lengths of time. Conclusion, those who originally  dealt with this were as much in the dark as we who come after. Me, I like the slab slide idea.