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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Where were the wolves immediately after the DPI?  (Read 5162 times)

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September 05, 2023, 01:17:18 AM
Reply #30
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Ziljoe


Oops, I messed up my replies to Eurocentric..

I'm sure it can be worked out. The lemming, to me, is an interesting observation, I appreciate the work by Teddy and Олег Таймень. I also appreciate how their work  it's being presented . Without their efforts we would be in a less informed place.

I don't know who's admiring the cute lemming and I think most people have observed the terrain .

The video's were shot by someone else on the expedition.

And your point is?

That you are fawning in your gratitude to the wrong people.

How am I displaying exaggerated flattery in my gratitude to the wrong people?
 

September 05, 2023, 01:22:25 AM
Reply #31
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Ziljoe


The absence of animals is why I liked the wolverine version.

I'm not a 100% sure about the claims of deer or sick Mansi. I'll need to look that up for facts at the time or if that's something that was added later by various authors.

There is a statistical chance that wolves just were not there, even over the three weeks.

There's a pretty good statistical chance that the wolverine wasn't there either. But in terms of probability a pack of animals working the land have a greater chance of finding a free lunch than does a lone animal.

Agree, to a point...the theory behind the wolverine being involved was the point of no other animals approaching the dead. Wolverine's and wolves exist in that location and I appreciate your observation as to why none of the beasts had a free lunch.

I wouldn't say a lone animal or pack of animals would sway mutch in detecting the dead. Probability? There's a lot of that....

A pack of animals who separate and go off to scout for food in different directions and then alert the pack to food by howling will surely be more successful than a solitary animal.

I don't know enough about how wolves or Wolverines hunt. Wolves hunt on their own sometimes as do wolverines and polar bears etc.

I think wolves hunt in packs to take down deer and moose etc other wise they hunt small game indavidually . If the wolves were hunting in packs , they would be stalking the deet I would guess. Following the heard so to speak. Perhaps they were following a group of deer or moose in better hunting grounds?

If I remember correctly, the Mansi name for 1079 was something to do with a poor hunting area.


The point I was making was a pack of animals operating as a team can cover a lot more ground than a single alternative beastie.

Perhaps, but I don't think they wonder around aimlessly? I would guess they follow their food , pick them off at their leisure and repeat. Keep close to the heard....
 

September 05, 2023, 01:47:20 AM
Reply #32
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Ziljoe


The absence of animals is why I liked the wolverine version.

I'm not a 100% sure about the claims of deer or sick Mansi. I'll need to look that up for facts at the time or if that's something that was added later by various authors.

There is a statistical chance that wolves just were not there, even over the three weeks.

There's a pretty good statistical chance that the wolverine wasn't there either. But in terms of probability a pack of animals working the land have a greater chance of finding a free lunch than does a lone animal.


I'm a mixed bag over a fall verses lying in the ravine. As you stated before , we would expect broken wrists or limb etc. Putting one's arms out so to catch ones fall so to speak. Also the fact that they were under the snow at ground level . I still swing towards the ravine 4 having snow collapsed on them . It's what makes the most sense to me given the evidence that we have.


A snow den collapse does not even begin to explain head injuries, only crush injuries to some ribs. And why would 2 chests be spared under the same weight of snow.

I wrote how a tumble or roll down the steep snow-covered bank would dissipate the impact to the hands so that an abrupt force was not transmitted to the collar bones.


I'm not as knowledgeable as you unfortunately and I'm no expert

However, I'll plow on.

I'm lying on my bed right now. Head on pillow and I'm looking up towards my celling. I'm imagining a space above my head about 800 mm. The rest of the space above is less than 1500 mm/ 1.5 meters.

In my uneducated imagination, I can envisage a sudden collapse crushing my ribs quite easily. If my pillow is a rock I can also see the side of my head situated on the rock taking a hit and possible fracture.

Some of the ribs and head injuries may have been spared on the others because there was some give under thosee bodies.

I do not write off the concept of a fall either , it just seems less likely to me. This is to do with how the bodies were found mostly, the bodies suggest they were huddled.

Only my thinking so don't get too excited....


And if one of your girlfriends was next to you what of her ribs, why should she be spared any injury from this crushing weight, and why too should one side of your chest. Why didn't you die of suffocation? How did you manage to escape from this tomb with such injuries if you didn't in fact suffocate?

It's not about education, although I do have a part medical background, it's questioning the logical flaws in a theory.

It's not the only theory with amazingly versatile ribs. In the tree collapse theory, Lyuda is next to Semyon, an unlikely pairing in the first place I'm sure you agree, then again you may automatically disagree, but both have flailed right sides yet Semyon's left, betwixt the two, somehow remained intact. Was that "give" too?

The reason is more to do with physics I guess than any medical knowledge.

If the body is lying horizontal, there is less chance for broken femurs, tibia, fibula humerus ,radius and ulna. . Unless theres some kind of leverage , same for the ankles and wrists. With impact we could expect damage to the bones like you suggested in falling when walking on the slope.

We don't have any report of these bones being fractured in the autopsy, so....what's maybe going on?  The ravine 4 are lying on the ground, although found in may, in February there could well have been a bed of snow, soft ground mixed with the stones of the stream bed.

The ribs have no support from a crush injury or a mass off snow, those lying on hard ground or less support will suffer fractures.

Semyons fractures suggest he was lying on his side and yes I would suspect suffocation.

I can't take the credit for this. A few others have put  this forward too.

Doesn't mean it's what happened but the most plausible for me.
 

September 05, 2023, 07:03:43 AM
Reply #33
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Manti


It's time for a 'Myth Busters' style video by someone. Same or similar ravine, build a couple of snow caves, place crash test dummies there, make the snow dens collapse. Did the dummies ribs break? Were there broken skulls?

I have the feeling that snow cannot cause an injury like on Tibo's head. But would be happy to be proven wrong.Also, the video would probably prove quite popular online. Logistically it's a bit hard to pull off though.





 

September 05, 2023, 07:56:22 AM
Reply #34
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Ziljoe


It's time for a 'Myth Busters' style video by someone. Same or similar ravine, build a couple of snow caves, place crash test dummies there, make the snow dens collapse. Did the dummies ribs break? Were there broken skulls?

I have the feeling that snow cannot cause an injury like on Tibo's head. But would be happy to be proven wrong.Also, the video would probably prove quite popular online. Logistically it's a bit hard to pull off though.





That would be great to rule it out .  That would stear me in other directions and certainly raise the bar for outsiders being involved.
 

September 05, 2023, 09:29:33 AM
Reply #35
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Олег Таймень


It's time for a 'Myth Busters' style video by someone. Same or similar ravine, build a couple of snow caves, place crash test dummies there, make the snow dens collapse. Did the dummies ribs break? Were there broken skulls?

I have the feeling that snow cannot cause an injury like on Tibo's head. But would be happy to be proven wrong.Also, the video would probably prove quite popular online. Logistically it's a bit hard to pull off though.
Here's an example for you. The wind blew the tent of Romanenko's group at night. They dug up the pepper and spent the night. The cave collapsed in the morning. The vault of the cave collapsed on people. The thickness of the cave vault is about a meter. No harm done

The height of this place is 2.5 thousand meters. I know this place. You can go down to the forest all night and it’s not a fact that you will go down, as there are rocky faults and cracks on the way. But, the group without panic, with jokes and fun, just dug a cave and moved out of the torn tent.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 09:36:05 AM by Олег Таймень »
 
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September 05, 2023, 11:40:34 AM
Reply #37
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Ziljoe


It will be difficult to replicate and know the exact conditions at the ravine in 1959 but heres an opposing example although a bit more extreme, harder snow/ ice etc.

Similarities are they two boys are on hard ground, so there will be no give from the ground below which I suspect added to their injuries. 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/boys-trapped-in-ice-cave-took-strength-from-each-other/

Among their injuries were;

Both boys suffered broken backs in the collapse, Skepetaris said. He said he didn’t know the extent of their injuries, but believed vertebra damage was involved.

Corbett also has a fractured ankle and Gelmini, known as “Ollie,” has two fractured ankles, a dislocated shoulder and cuts to his head, according to statements released Friday by both families.

Corbett was listed in satisfactory condition Friday; Gelmini was in serious condition.


Link to the photo of the cave just before it collapsed below.

https://images.app.goo.gl/6yvsLhMKVS2c48dW7