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Author Topic: The Missing Injuries  (Read 2400 times)

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August 31, 2023, 11:39:14 PM
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eurocentric


Is it possible to narrow down what happened to the Dyatlov group by considering the absence of injuries which you'd anticipate would be present in a given theory?

If they were attacked there were no defence injuries. A surprise attack, a blow to the head, might render one or two unconscious in the dark, but the rest? Only Yuri K reliably had any knuckle injury, to one hand, and Zina a gash to her hand.

If they fell while conscious they should have injuries to their hands/wrists, and broken collar bones from trying to break their fall, the weakest part where stress travels up the arms. (This, to me, has always been one of the most puzzling facts about the mystery.)

If they were caught in an avalanche, and less so a slab-slip, some of them should have broken limbs or dislocations. These are the most common injuries in crush events caused by a mass of travelling snow.

If they were exposed to explosion then unless on the periphery of this event and concussed by it and thrown to the sides they should have external traumatic injuries including perforated ear drums and at least one or two should have bled to death.

If run over by a snowmobile or herd of deer there should have been some internal rupture to vital organs from the pressure points found at autopsy. Ditto had a tree fallen on them (which would be remarkable too if no limbs were broken).

If hit by ball lightning there should be rather more burns than Yuri K's leg.

If attacked by a yeti some of them should have reacted like Teddy probably did to a bear in the forest.  grin1

My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
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September 01, 2023, 03:31:24 AM
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amashilu

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Is it possible to narrow down what happened to the Dyatlov group by considering the absence of injuries which you'd anticipate would be present in a given theory?

If they were attacked there were no defence injuries. A surprise attack, a blow to the head, might render one or two unconscious in the dark, but the rest? Only Yuri K reliably had any knuckle injury, to one hand, and Zina a gash to her hand.

Here is a discussion from this forum in 2019 regarding defense wounds:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=333.0
 

September 03, 2023, 01:54:44 AM
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eurocentric


Accepting that decomposition may have masked some evidence in the ravine 4, where all 3 males had head injuries, one also with a flailed right-sided chest he was found laid on, and a female with a bilaterally flailed chest and loose hyoid bone, none of them appeared to have defended themselves from such horrific injuries if attacked when they would be fighting for their lives if so. And among 5 others only 2 reliably had anything which could be attributed to defence and both also had frostbite to their fingertips on the same injured hands.

It is often claimed that Igor had been fighting but not only did his autopsy report fail to suggest this as an explanation for redness without any surface break to the skin or bleeding, and such injury wasn't visible on his leading hand when photographed on the slab, but what marks he had there were identical to those his brother had on his leading hand in the UPI classroom photo. Likewise Rustem is said to have been fighting, but his hands do not show this, although the metacarpals are not fully visible. All I can see is a potentially loose fingernail.

What appears to have happened is that historically any damage to the metacarpals was assumed to be from fighting, this site had a web page which suggested in red that these injuries were typical of this, but the pathologist made no such suggestion and instead referenced frostbite, which will affect both the knuckle joints and fingertips.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 02:16:53 AM by eurocentric »
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

September 03, 2023, 04:14:29 AM
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Axelrod


I think that authors of many/most versions are medically incompetent to consider autopsy reports.
Somebody says that version HURRACANE is good, but it does not explain the injures.
So, version AVALANCE is good because it explains injures.
But reaaly we deal with many such injures that cannot be explained by avalanche.
So, we must research anorher scenarios.

Sorry, if i wrote something wrong in English.

 

September 03, 2023, 08:51:50 AM
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Ziljoe


The avalanche or snow slide may just be enough to get them to leave the tent for fear of a bigger avalanche.

The serious injuries of broken ribs etc would seem to take place at the ravine from their snow cave or hole.

The explanation about possible fighting is from speculation and not from those that did the autopsy etc.

Since 1959 , there has been more examples globally of behaviours in humans with hypothermia and cold survival conditions .

Many of the findings talk of changed skin colour, red marks to the skin, small cuts, taking clothes off, walking on hands( clenched fists) and knees. In an incident in the UK, the teacher was found by a helicopter crawling with no gloves. They could barely straighten her legs to get her into the helicopter. Some of her students were found to have got out of their sleeping bags and take off clothing. The instinct to save the students is what kept the teacher going. Like wise, it is possible that Zina , Rustem and Igor were aware that reaching the tent was their only hope for survival or saving their friends. There was no option other than to die trying...?

Many of the marks and changes on the facial skin could be wind chill or the start of frost bite. Some of the small cuts or wounds on the hands could have happened when chopping wood or setting up the tent, even when cutting trees and making the den, small cuts etc would occur, especially if they were losing dexterity in their hands and limbs as time went on.
 

September 03, 2023, 11:26:27 AM
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Axelrod


Dubinina's injure may be caused by avalanche/snow on the tent.
Therefore 8 pairs of steps, not 9, because Dubinina was transported.
Inhure of Thibeaux-Brignolles may be caused by falling on the stone when he transported Dubinina.
Zoloratyov become injured due to pressore of photocamera - when he transpported Dubinina from another side.
After falling incident, Dubinina became shifted and found lower.

We have presence of alldigits 1,2..9,0  from which we may construct any number
and many versions....
 

September 03, 2023, 11:49:51 AM
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Ziljoe


I don't think the injuries of broken ribs happened at the tent. The pain would be too much and I believe the fracture ribs would just grind the internal organs.

The lack of injuries relating to a fight is an important factor. If there was a fight of some sort, I would expect far more serious injuries, it would have become obvious that it was a life / death fight. I suppose we can't rule out some small domestic fight within the group but I would expect more serious injuries if it was outsiders.

To me, the injuries at the ravine are most consistent with a snow collapse from some snow shelter. I can't ignore the 3-4 meters of snow above them and they were found at ground level. I do not think that all that snow fell or drifted in the following 3 weeks to cover them to that depth.

If the injuries to the ravine 4 can be ring fenced to crush injuries from a snow collapse and the missing eyes and tongue to the water and animals, then everything else seems less unusual, perhaps....?

 
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September 03, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
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KathleenDSmith1


Everyone:

I read that, after the tent was placed up, someone(male/female) went outside to relieve themselves (bathroom) and could have fallen /pushed by the gust/wind (blizzard) and the tent collapsed??    If Alavanche all would have been buried by the weight/cold of the snow would have gotten the best of all 9 hikers, "unknown compelling force injuries"  If a person/persons outside waiting for all 9 Hikers to get comfortable (stove unused) and plowed the Tent, with snowmobile/vehicles still all 9 hikers would have been buried inside the tent with all their "unknown compelling force injuries" ...but all 9 Hikers were scattered to look as if all 9 hikers would be planning "to do something" what ?????...what was in the person/persons mind to plan all 9 Hikers murders as "IF" they never had any experience in "Skiing" or "Camping" ..that what bothers me the most of this mystery....The Other person/persons "MIND"...


Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
 

September 04, 2023, 03:52:45 AM
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Ziljoe


A fair point Kathleen and a question we all ask. It's certainly a strange staging scene .

We are missing the reason for them leaving the tent and we can only ponder. For me , the avalanche or snow slide may have been very small, just where they cut into the snow drift to pitch the tent. If they weren't sure exactly where they were on the hill side , then they may have been worried that more would follow so they best move to the forest. Looking at various videos the slope  above the tent does look steeper in parts. I also wonder if they hadn't finished pitching the tent for the night. I say this because the ridge for tent with the skis doesn't seem to have been finished, I would have thought that necessary or at least for peace of mind through the night. I also wonder how they planned to have enough fluids.

Coming back to the injuries or missing injuries, we have the Yuri's with burns at the ceder, we have a fire and what looks like paradoxical undressing . Ive tried to find when paradoxical undressing became understood and associated with hypothermia, the reason being, would stagers know that in 1959? If they didn't, what were in the minds of any murder's to leave the 2 Yuri's in that confused state?

We are missing, bullet holes, stab wounds, broken limbs , deep cuts from weapons . We get worse wounds in a game of rugby . The bodies were not eaten by the wolves or even my favourite, the wolverine.

Wolves and wolverines love a free lunch

https://youtu.be/DaxYXD_ud6Y?si=0tUD8uoXsmww4zUG
 

September 04, 2023, 11:23:15 AM
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Manti



We are missing, bullet holes, stab wounds, broken limbs , deep cuts from weapons . We get worse wounds in a game of rugby .
Thibo's autopsy does mention a couple of round holes. The description is vague - I could never make sense of it. Are these just holes in his clothing? Are these wounds?


 

September 04, 2023, 11:31:30 AM
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Arjan


Thank you for posing this question.

In chapter 6 in 'DEEP SURVIVAL: WHO LIVES, WHO DIES, AND WHY', Laurence Gonzale describes  a major mountaineering fall  accident . This accident had started by one group member who had lost his balance. In his fall he had taken the whole group one by one with him in his fall. The major injuries had been:
- broken skull
- boken rib cages
- broken hips
- broken back
- broken arms and legs
- broken hands and feet
- etc.

While reading this chapter, it is obvious that the post mortem reports don't mention as major injuries:
- broken hips
- broken arms
- broken legs
- broken hands and feet

Only one injury in the post mortem reports may well be caused  a slide during the accent from the 'storage/labaz' to the Dyatlov pass.
This ascend starts at 550 meter above sea level and ends at 800 meter above sea level over 1000 meter. This is 35 % in average: on some places less on some place more.
A victim sliding on this kind of slope will very quickly gain a speed of 30 to 40 km/u
Very probably the group had ascended this slope carrying a backpack of 30 kg and 10 kg while holding the skies and poles in their hands: carrying skies and poles may well cause an imbalance while touching trees.

Zinaida had been found with 'a  long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton'
Instead of being hit with a baton, a small tree may have stopped her (30-40 km/u) slide on the hill side during the accent.
If this accident had happened the discussion between Igor and Semyon on frame 26 of film 6 may well have covered the consequences of this slide for the continuation of the tour. Remark: Zinaida is standing bend and Alexander is looking at her (or Lyudmila)

In case Zinaida had slided, the extent of her injury may not have been clear: she might have suffered internal bleeding due to the small tree that had stopped her slide.
If so, it is not so strange that they have placed their tent on the place where it had been found by the first search party.
This camping place had no running water and no fire wood nearby.
According to their normal procedure, 5 to 6 group members had erected the tent and 3 to 4 group members had gathered running water and fire wood by descending to the ravine and cedar: a descend that had taken 20 minutes.