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Author Topic: The ravine deaths - a theory  (Read 22960 times)

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March 31, 2019, 04:02:21 AM
Reply #60
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Nigel Evans


I think the injuries are more easily explained by a fall from height.  Lyuda looks like she has fallen flat on her front, whilst not conscious.  Her chest is smashed, but her nose cartilage is also smashed, and the force on the top of the rib cage and throat could explain the hyoid bone.  It seems more likely than a vehicle driving over them.

Also rodents do tent to be more prevalent near to water sources like streams and rivers, so you would expect more rodent activity in the ravine than on the slope.

Regards

Star man
Lyudmila's nose is to close to Semyon's foot for that to be an objection to the theory.
That double fracture is saying something imo.


April 01, 2019, 05:53:54 AM
Reply #61
Offline

Nigel Evans


To continue the narrative :-
  • Vehicle crushes den occupants.
  • Remaining three attempt rescue. This results in hand injuries but allows the ravine four to breathe.
  • Realising that the extent of the injuries precludes dragging the victims out they have to get help from the vehicle which has now passed the tree line and is ascending the hill. It will have a radio.
  • So they urgently set off.
  • It is now absolutely imperative that they reach that vehicle both for their comrades and for their own safety, if people can't keep up they have to be left behind.
  • Zinaida is the last but cannot handle the ascent (she seems to have been found at the foot of the steepest section). Nitric acid inhalation would explain this.

April 01, 2019, 08:17:41 AM
Reply #62

Clacon

Guest
Wouldn't the vehicle have been going in the other direction, away from where the 3 were found? We just don't know in what direction it would have been travelling….if in fact there was a vehicle and it was obviously going faster than 3 dying hikers, so why would they have attempted to chase after it?? I think they probably knew they wouldn't be able to catch up to it.

I really believe they were going back to the tent or the storage hut...isn't that more in line with the orientation of their bodies?



April 01, 2019, 08:37:26 AM
Reply #63
Offline

Nigel Evans


Wouldn't the vehicle have been going in the other direction, away from where the 3 were found? We just don't know in what direction it would have been travelling….if in fact there was a vehicle and it was obviously going faster than 3 dying hikers, so why would they have attempted to chase after it?? I think they probably knew they wouldn't be able to catch up to it.Perhaps it had stopped near the top, to investigate the lights (as photographed by Semyon?) (perhaps the tent?) and that was the purpose of it's mission?

I really believe they were going back to the tent or the storage hut...isn't that more in line with the orientation of their bodies?Yes Rustem and Zinaida were heading for the tent. The labaz was almost in the opposite direction. From memory Igor inconclusively on his back pointing downhill.



April 01, 2019, 09:01:37 AM
Reply #64

Clacon

Guest
Okay so, that 3D animation video is incorrect? B/c it shows Igor's body lying in the same orientation as Zina and Rustem - facing tent with legs towards Cedar. Is that what you're saying?

Please see my diagram - I know the labaz is way further a distance than the tent, but it could be possible they were headed there? Or have I got it wrong?


April 01, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
Reply #65
Offline

Nigel Evans


Okay so, that 3D animation video is incorrect? B/c it shows Igor's body lying in the same orientation as Zina and Rustem - facing tent with legs towards Cedar. Is that what you're saying?

Please see my diagram - I know the labaz is way further a distance than the tent, but it could be possible they were headed there? Or have I got it wrong?

Looks good, my error!  loco1 https://dyatlovpass.com/maps

 

April 01, 2019, 10:43:55 AM
Reply #66
Offline

WAB


1.In your picture of arrangement bodies at reception traumas there it is rational component. But it was in other place and under other circumstances.  If speak about them will shortly it not turn out, and on very detailed description I cannot find time enough. But I will try make it.
2. I have not time read and answer much texts, therefore I want ask managers and moderators make the theme, for example, with made the name "Questions to WAB". I will not interfere to your conversations (though you say much that is not combined in any way by that is on this place and-or conditions which there are available), and I will be as much as possible in detail and quickly (whenever possible) them answer. I have not time look through considerable quantity that.
Certainly it is necessary do it, if all of you are interested receive from me information from visiting and analysis practice particularly that district where all has occurred.

For now I will shortly comment on that you have told …



 


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory


O ` K. Let's look, what from this is on the place of events?



BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.

Even in the most snow year in March (for example, this year which was such), was not so much snow. Here 3 photos on which it is visible,
1.How many snow happens in March when it is lot of snow;



It is case when Shura has failed to the bottom stream completely.
2.What pillow of snow which lies on the brink of ravine



I want pay attention that the length of a measuring stick is equal 1,5 m (or 5 foots).
3.It is possible whether dig out cave when it is a lot of snow on this place?



On this basis let everyone solves itself. I will add: this time when snow in 2 or 3 time more than was in 1959, March. We measured it in several points as on photos of searches which we have. The sample of cave which we have dug out (by means of good avalanche shovel!) was in the size 1,2 m  (in depth) on 0,8 m (in height and width). I want pay attention that we dug in parallel slope (after we have made cut of gentle layer) because perpendicularly dig it was useless, because there would be no the necessary length of cave. And that below there is crack which will not give possibility completely keep heat in cave.
Such work cannot be made by hands (without good tools - we have rummaged in total amount 4 … 5 cubic metrs of snow by avalanche shovel and by measuring lath - it had the sizes - 1500 mm x 100 mm х 40 mm). Therefore all reasonings on possibility make cave and hide in it have no sense. As well as conversations about “collapses of the arch of cave and be traumatised thus” because the quantity of snow obviously is not enough for this purpose even if it is in 2 or 3 times more than were in 1959.

   
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.

To my much regret it all is called as imaginations which correspond events very little:
1.”Nikolay on watch (carries two hours)” (c) is concerns that was in tent (their camp above slope). It`s same condition remains to bottom site where them have be found. He be dressed:
“A canvas green fur jacket on sheepskin on fastener lightning, with two unprofitable pockets” (c) it is the medical certificate from mortuary from Boris Vozrozhdenny. It is its own jacket, which it has purchase on building work, where worked as "construction superintendent" (it is the chief of site of building) after his finish building faculty UPI. The canvas is rough cotton fabric. Luda had jacket from thin cotton fabric, apparently in this photo:



On Luda provide the storm jacket - as easy canvas, and under it warm jacket with the top fabric from thin cotton fabric is dressed. The storm jacket has no lining of any type. It was clasped on buttons and had “no type fastener _ zipper _”.
Because of that those who spoke: “the jacket of Luda is on Nikolay” did not estimate clothes which Luda on this travel owned.
Therefore you are not right, when speak about his clothes.


[/list]
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

As there is no event when “the object moves on …” because I have shown that they could not dig out anything and as Nikolay could not have such trauma anywhere, except sticking out stones on slope (I have written it earlier), this description of events means is wrong.
I will tell about vehicle: no wheel or caterpillar transport technics can reach in the winter to place where Dyatlov group because there depth of snow around makes 1 metre and more was lost. In 1959 there at all was not roads on distance more than 90 km (or 55 miles), and even now there is no constant clearing is expensive more close than the same distance. Even now there it is possible get only by snowmobile or on skis. But even the snowmobile in January and the beginning of February very often cannot pass many places to lifting, because there is abrupt slope and friable snow. In 1959 snowmobile yet was not.
Four in ravine never lay on den because had not time reach there because three were traumatised earlier, and carry wounded men could only Kolevatov – he is one did not have traumas. Other variant is logically excluded.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.

Rodents did not eat Luda because they would leave traces of teeth. All his (and others man) damages are put by thawed snow. I already wrote:
1.Thawed snow has stream pressure (mechanical loading);
2. Thawed snow has very big concentration of the dissolved oxygen (chemical loading);
3.In thawed snow was contains microflora and microfauna (microorganisms) - (biological loading);
To it is necessary add that the defrozen corpse very quickly decays, because at frost water of tissue  extends and breaks durability communications between separate fragments of biological tissue.
Rodents very much do not love and are afraid appear in water, especially, when it flows in the limited space - channels of thawing of snow in snow layer. All these bodies have been found out under continuous snow, and have been then dug out. Water washed them on the limited channels, therefore the part of sites of bodies has been damaged (there where there was water access), and the part had no damages (there where they were completely in snow which has not thawed).
Traumas which they have received during lifetime, have been made in other place, but is very close from that place where them have found. Otherwise they could not appear in this place all together. Anybody from those three who had traumas could not move independently.


Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

Presence of any car on Holatchahle in the winter is nonsense even now. In 1959 it is nonsense in degree square, if it is not cubed degrees.

April 01, 2019, 12:11:10 PM
Reply #67
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Just to add to the theory, it would be reasonable that if the other three had heard the vehicle going up the ravine they would investigate, realise the den had collapsed and try and dig out their friends. From their avalanche knowledge they would know that under the snow you can breathe for minutes but CO2 poisoning sets in quickly. So this could explain the hand injuries and why none of the ravine four demonstrated signs of asphyxiation.

Wouldnt there be a lot of traces of such Military Vehicles though ie OIL etc etc.
DB

April 01, 2019, 12:12:52 PM
Reply #68
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think the injuries are more easily explained by a fall from height.  Lyuda looks like she has fallen flat on her front, whilst not conscious.  Her chest is smashed, but her nose cartilage is also smashed, and the force on the top of the rib cage and throat could explain the hyoid bone.  It seems more likely than a vehicle driving over them.

Also rodents do tent to be more prevalent near to water sources like streams and rivers, so you would expect more rodent activity in the ravine than on the slope.

Regards

Star man

Do you have any suggestions for the type of Rodents likely to be found at the water source  !  ?
DB

April 01, 2019, 12:16:19 PM
Reply #69
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
To continue the narrative :-
  • Vehicle crushes den occupants.
  • Remaining three attempt rescue. This results in hand injuries but allows the ravine four to breathe.
  • Realising that the extent of the injuries precludes dragging the victims out they have to get help from the vehicle which has now passed the tree line and is ascending the hill. It will have a radio.
  • So they urgently set off.
  • It is now absolutely imperative that they reach that vehicle both for their comrades and for their own safety, if people can't keep up they have to be left behind.
  • Zinaida is the last but cannot handle the ascent (she seems to have been found at the foot of the steepest section). Nitric acid inhalation would explain this.


Cant the driver of said Military Vehicle see where they are driving  ! ? And do you have a precise type of Military Vehicle involved.
DB

April 01, 2019, 12:18:32 PM
Reply #70

Clacon

Guest
"Wouldnt there be a lot of traces of such Military Vehicles though ie OIL etc etc."

And also compacted snow??

April 01, 2019, 03:39:53 PM
Reply #71
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
WAB has added some interesting information.  Particularly on the ability of the group to build a snow den, which seems much more unlikely.  Also, the accelerated decay and the lack of rodent teeth marks is a good point.

So it is unlikely that they built a snow den, and the missing tissue is more likely to be as a result of the thaw and accelerted decay.  I tend to agree with this.

Regards

Star man


April 02, 2019, 01:05:31 AM
Reply #72
Offline

Nigel Evans


Many thanks for the replies. I'm very busy today so will have to defer proper replies until tomorrow.

You don't need deep snow to build a snow cave -
But a shovel does seem important!  kewl1
One of the few facts wrt the DPI is the existence of the den floor. So unless it is a fabrication to fool everyone, there really was a den and they really were found dead nearby, near enough to support a theory that they died in it.


April 02, 2019, 01:52:07 AM
Reply #73
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The bed made of branches may have simply been that.  A bed to keep the injured off the cold ground.  Not necessarily a bed inside a den.

That then leads to the question why make a bed in the ravine when there is a fire only 75m away?

Maybe,  those injured were simply looking for fire wood and fell injuring themselves.  After that it was not possible to move them out of the ravine and back to the fire, so they made a bed in the ravine.  They did not have time to make another fire there because within 30 mins those injured were dead or close to death.  So they didn't have time to make a fire.  When I say they, it may have just been Kolevatov.

Regards

Star man

April 02, 2019, 04:58:27 AM
Reply #74
Offline

Ehtnisba


    1.In your picture of arrangement bodies at reception traumas there it is rational component. But it was in other place and under other circumstances.  If speak about them will shortly it not turn out, and on very detailed description I cannot find time enough. But I will try make it.
    2. I have not time read and answer much texts, therefore I want ask managers and moderators make the theme, for example, with made the name "Questions to WAB". I will not interfere to your conversations (though you say much that is not combined in any way by that is on this place and-or conditions which there are available), and I will be as much as possible in detail and quickly (whenever possible) them answer. I have not time look through considerable quantity that.
    Certainly it is necessary do it, if all of you are interested receive from me information from visiting and analysis practice particularly that district where all has occurred.

    For now I will shortly comment on that you have told …



     


    The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
    BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
    EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
    MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

    Detailed discussion of the theory


    O ` K. Let's look, what from this is on the place of events?



    BEFORE :-
    • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.

    Even in the most snow year in March (for example, this year which was such), was not so much snow. Here 3 photos on which it is visible,
    1.How many snow happens in March when it is lot of snow;



    It is case when Shura has failed to the bottom stream completely.
    2.What pillow of snow which lies on the brink of ravine



    I want pay attention that the length of a measuring stick is equal 1,5 m (or 5 foots).
    3.It is possible whether dig out cave when it is a lot of snow on this place?



    On this basis let everyone solves itself. I will add: this time when snow in 2 or 3 time more than was in 1959, March. We measured it in several points as on photos of searches which we have. The sample of cave which we have dug out (by means of good avalanche shovel!) was in the size 1,2 m  (in depth) on 0,8 m (in height and width). I want pay attention that we dug in parallel slope (after we have made cut of gentle layer) because perpendicularly dig it was useless, because there would be no the necessary length of cave. And that below there is crack which will not give possibility completely keep heat in cave.
    Such work cannot be made by hands (without good tools - we have rummaged in total amount 4 … 5 cubic metrs of snow by avalanche shovel and by measuring lath - it had the sizes - 1500 mm x 100 mm х 40 mm). Therefore all reasonings on possibility make cave and hide in it have no sense. As well as conversations about “collapses of the arch of cave and be traumatised thus” because the quantity of snow obviously is not enough for this purpose even if it is in 2 or 3 times more than were in 1959.

       
    • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
    • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.

    To my much regret it all is called as imaginations which correspond events very little:
    1.”Nikolay on watch (carries two hours)” (c) is concerns that was in tent (their camp above slope). It`s same condition remains to bottom site where them have be found. He be dressed:
    “A canvas green fur jacket on sheepskin on fastener lightning, with two unprofitable pockets” (c) it is the medical certificate from mortuary from Boris Vozrozhdenny. It is its own jacket, which it has purchase on building work, where worked as "construction superintendent" (it is the chief of site of building) after his finish building faculty UPI. The canvas is rough cotton fabric. Luda had jacket from thin cotton fabric, apparently in this photo:



    On Luda provide the storm jacket - as easy canvas, and under it warm jacket with the top fabric from thin cotton fabric is dressed. The storm jacket has no lining of any type. It was clasped on buttons and had “no type fastener _ zipper _”.
    Because of that those who spoke: “the jacket of Luda is on Nikolay” did not estimate clothes which Luda on this travel owned.
    Therefore you are not right, when speak about his clothes.


    [/list]
    EVENT :-
    • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
    • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
    • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
    • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
    • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
    • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
    • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

    As there is no event when “the object moves on …” because I have shown that they could not dig out anything and as Nikolay could not have such trauma anywhere, except sticking out stones on slope (I have written it earlier), this description of events means is wrong.
    I will tell about vehicle: no wheel or caterpillar transport technics can reach in the winter to place where Dyatlov group because there depth of snow around makes 1 metre and more was lost. In 1959 there at all was not roads on distance more than 90 km (or 55 miles), and even now there is no constant clearing is expensive more close than the same distance. Even now there it is possible get only by snowmobile or on skis. But even the snowmobile in January and the beginning of February very often cannot pass many places to lifting, because there is abrupt slope and friable snow. In 1959 snowmobile yet was not.
    Four in ravine never lay on den because had not time reach there because three were traumatised earlier, and carry wounded men could only Kolevatov – he is one did not have traumas. Other variant is logically excluded.

    Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
    However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

    Reasons :-
    • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
    • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
    Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.

    Rodents did not eat Luda because they would leave traces of teeth. All his (and others man) damages are put by thawed snow. I already wrote:
    1.Thawed snow has stream pressure (mechanical loading);
    2. Thawed snow has very big concentration of the dissolved oxygen (chemical loading);
    3.In thawed snow was contains microflora and microfauna (microorganisms) - (biological loading);
    To it is necessary add that the defrozen corpse very quickly decays, because at frost water of tissue  extends and breaks durability communications between separate fragments of biological tissue.
    Rodents very much do not love and are afraid appear in water, especially, when it flows in the limited space - channels of thawing of snow in snow layer. All these bodies have been found out under continuous snow, and have been then dug out. Water washed them on the limited channels, therefore the part of sites of bodies has been damaged (there where there was water access), and the part had no damages (there where they were completely in snow which has not thawed).
    Traumas which they have received during lifetime, have been made in other place, but is very close from that place where them have found. Otherwise they could not appear in this place all together. Anybody from those three who had traumas could not move independently.


    Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

    Presence of any car on Holatchahle in the winter is nonsense even now. In 1959 it is nonsense in degree square, if it is not cubed degrees.

    Hi WAB,
    Thank you very much for your explanation. This is something that adds a lot to what I was thinking - the den has never been there. So I have a few questions for you if you have the time?
    1. Why the searchers found "a den", or being exact - branches and clothes? Does that proves stage up? Or those branches and clothes were simply there for other purpose different than den?
    2. If we can see in your photo that the biggest snow is 1,5m , how come that in May 1959 the bodies were found under 4m of snow??? Does that mean that someone deriberately put more snow over these bodies to hide them from the searchers?

    Thank you very much in advance!

    April 02, 2019, 08:43:40 AM
    Reply #75

    Clacon

    Guest
    So the general consensus is that they made the floor to keep off the wet snow, in the ravine - which is not super deep, but a depressed bit of land through which water flows.
    This was maybe to protect them from the wind and to be close to a water source?? Would the water have been frozen at that time?
    They died and the wind drifted snow up against the elevated edge of land and buried them that deep.

    Or like Star Man said - they became incapacitated there and made the floor, somewhat sheltered from the wind.

    I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?

    April 02, 2019, 12:52:48 PM
    Reply #76
    Offline

    sarapuk

    Case-Files Achievement Recipient
    So the general consensus is that they made the floor to keep off the wet snow, in the ravine - which is not super deep, but a depressed bit of land through which water flows.
    This was maybe to protect them from the wind and to be close to a water source?? Would the water have been frozen at that time?
    They died and the wind drifted snow up against the elevated edge of land and buried them that deep.

    Or like Star Man said - they became incapacitated there and made the floor, somewhat sheltered from the wind.

    I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?

    Well Iam not sure if all what you state is the consensus of the Forum  !  ?
    DB

    April 02, 2019, 10:57:11 PM
    Reply #77
    Offline

    Monika



    So if Dubinina, Zolotaryov and Thibo were injured and Kolevatov dig the den as said by WAB, why the den was built so that four seats were made from clothes on the bottom of the den? After all, it had to be clear for Kovaletov  that three injured would not be able to sit there only to be in a lying position. Therefore, this theory (Kovaletov dig the den for injured trio) does not seem to me to be right.

    April 03, 2019, 02:57:39 AM
    Reply #78
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    Nigel Evans


    @WAB - hi there thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated.
    Lets begin with the big issue in your reply the depth of the snow in the ravine.
    https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220 (Atmanaki) states :-An area of 50 m behind the cedar was probed, the ravine leading there was not examined due to the fact that the probes that were available did not allow us to check the entire depth of the snow, reaching 4-5 m in places.
    This of course during the first weekof March 1959.
    So your assertion regarding snow depth is contradicting the case files?

    Regarding vehicles. - the fact that the investigation from March to May was only supplied by helicopter reinforces your point. However it is my guess that then as now the Russian Army had the capability to deploy tracked vehicles in remote areas if it desired to do so (transported by helicopter?) so whilst it is conjecture that vehicles were there, it is possible. Other possibilities include Ivanov's fire orbs of course.
    In fact imo the two best theories for the DPI are military or fire orbs or a combination - they both solve a lot of the evidence :-
    • condition of snow at tent indicates warming.
    • orange skin indicates nitric acid.
    • ravine group injuries consistent with crushing, no limb injuries make falling low probability.


    April 03, 2019, 03:04:05 AM
    Reply #79
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    Nigel Evans


    I really don't think the "Den" was a set up....why even bother? It makes no sense, it offers no more of an explanation as to death by "natural causes" if you really think about it. What would this red herring be covering up? I mean, the condition of the bodies is the perplexing bit, not the Den....if it really was a coverup there would have been no bodies. "Oh they fell off a mountain or were buried by an avalanche....we couldn't find the remaining 4 bodies...." is easier than constructing a den, right?
    Agree. In fact the best case for a coverup is that they couldn't find the ravine four and confirm they were dead and so covered up the rest of it so that the civilian authorities would investigate in good faith and find them. So the den has to be real, why bother inventing it?

    April 03, 2019, 08:47:40 AM
    Reply #80
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    Ehtnisba


    maybe the den was not a den, but just branches and clothes on the surface of the snow for isolation,,but why away from the fire ??/ I am starting to think that the group really had an arguement between themselves and split up. I know from personal experience that in tense situation people tend to act impulsive and arguements starts very easy and escalate fast with people ready to even fight and split .
    About the snow depth WAB said when he measured it it was the DEEPEST possible for the place and I believe he has been multiple times there and knows the weather and snow cover. To be honest I was questioning the depth of 4m , because the terrain and all the photos from there doesn't suggest such depths as far as I am familiar with mountains and ow snow is acumulated . That's why I would love to wait for WAB's explanation about the reported 4-5m snow cover the searchers reported. I think the whole investigation was very very sloppy and many numbers are completely wrong out of laziness and unprofessional job. Like come on , those so called searchers were only 20 year old students ... how much do they know . They weren't professional mountain guides like the ones that now are used for search operation. So all of the testimonies must be questioned , and even all the hard evidences are questionable like the den, the tent cut from the inside , etc.

    April 03, 2019, 09:00:38 AM
    Reply #81
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    Nigel Evans


    maybe the den was not a den, but just branches and clothes on the surface of the snow for isolation,,but why away from the fire ??/ I am starting to think that the group really had an arguement between themselves and split up. I know from personal experience that in tense situation people tend to act impulsive and arguements starts very easy and escalate fast with people ready to even fight and split .The two Yuris were probably dead by then so there could definitely be some tension. Or they were rotating between the fire and the den. From halfway up the cedar they could observe the tent. Sort of on duty at the forward station (fire) and resting and staying warm in the den.

    About the snow depth WAB said when he measured it it was the DEEPEST possible for the place and I believe he has been multiple times there and knows the weather and snow cover. To be honest I was questioning the depth of 4m , because the terrain and all the photos from there doesn't suggest such depths as far as I am familiar with mountains and ow snow is acumulated . That's why I would love to wait for WAB's explanation about the reported 4-5m snow cover the searchers reported. I think the whole investigation was very very sloppy and many numbers are completely wrong out of laziness and unprofessional job. Like come on , those so called searchers were only 20 year old students ... how much do they know . They weren't professional mountain guides like the ones that now are used for search operation. So all of the testimonies must be questioned , and even all the hard evidences are questionable like the den, the tent cut from the inside , etc.It was definitely that deep in May, they got extra long probes (3.5m?) and still had to clear 1 metre off the top for these probes to reach the bottom, see the photo. Some of the party were KGB and at least one had the rank of Colonel.


    April 03, 2019, 09:18:06 AM
    Reply #82
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    Ehtnisba


    I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .

    April 03, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
    Reply #83
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    Nigel Evans


    I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .
    There's a lot of snow in that photo? Maybe they used a bulldozer?  kewl1

    April 03, 2019, 09:37:51 AM
    Reply #84
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    Ehtnisba


    who knows? everything is possible with this case....let see what WAB thinks about the snow in 1959

    April 03, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
    Reply #85
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    Nigel Evans


    @WAB - more from the case files - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312
    At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick.

    April 05, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
    Reply #86
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    WAB


    Friends, I very much regret that I answer with delay and it is rare, but I cannot write to thicket and faster. I have not time see sometimes all the texts which it is turned to my attention.
    I will answer from this line of the text, and that is written earlier, I will try answer tomorrow.

    maybe the den was not a den, but just branches and clothes on the surface of the snow for isolation,,but why away from the fire ??/

    Yes. You are right in it. How much I have studied these actions and as far as I understand situation so it was in this way.
    It was time-constructions for this purpose that it would be possible put bodies at their transport to fire, from place where they have got the wounds.
    Den has been found at 30 cm (~ 1 ft) above the earth, it means that snow level at that time when it constructed was on 5 … 7 cm above this size. Snow is condensed approximately on such size. All other it is replenishment of snow for more later time.
    Even if in the beginning of March (then searches under snow there have begun) all these people has covered with snow small amount them it was not visible. Therefore them also have not found. Especially it is clear because it search for it in this place it was very strong inconveniently and difficultly. There is difficult microrelief. Most likely in this small part for them also did not search, and have simply inspected and have decided that there they cannot be.
    We even had such joke: “ Search more conveniently not there where have lost, and under lantern light on column - there is more light.” (c)

    I am starting to think that the group really had an arguement between themselves and split up. I know from personal experience that in tense situation people tend to act impulsive and arguements starts very easy and escalate fast with people ready to even fight and split .

    Yes, so sometimes happens in not so amicable groups. But it not that case which we study. Not because they is superman also are too judicious, that is why that:
    1.At them was struggle for life preservation, and it rejects small insults and troubles.
    2.The Group was amicable and is well prepared for taiga and cold conditions. It is necessary notice that at that time ability and desire operate in collective were much stronger, than now. After WWII has passed only 14 years, namely because of such qualities of the USSR could win war with fascists though in the beginning forces, means and skills were very unequal. It has been very well acquired even by following generation which was not at war. Besides, it is one of national lines of Russian character.
    3.Their separation has occurred not below (near by cedar), and still at escape from tent. After that they went there different groups and could not see and hear others one because it was dark and there was blizzard. Visibility has been limited as distance 10 … 15 m (30 … 50 ft), and audibility on more smaller distance. And so was at minimum to the middle of way from tent to cedar. Further all became bit better, because wind strongly abate. But as they have dispersed earlier, they could not incorporate in the dark any more.

    About the snow depth WAB said when he measured it it was the DEEPEST possible for the place and I believe he has been multiple times there and knows the weather and snow cover. To be honest I was questioning the depth of 4m , because the terrain and all the photos from there doesn't suggest such depths as far as I am familiar with mountains and ow snow is acumulated . That's why I would love to wait for WAB's explanation about the reported 4-5m snow cover the searchers reported. I think the whole investigation was very very sloppy and many numbers are completely wrong out of laziness and unprofessional job. Like come on , those so called searchers were only 20 year old students ... how much do they know . They weren't professional mountain guides like the ones that now are used for search operation.

    Your doubts very correct. There anybody measured nothing by ruler. All distances and depth of snow were defined by eye. But it does not mean that in the basic documents wrote about 4-5-meter snow cover. There are written figure 2,5 metrs (8 ft). Other overestimated figures it is result of retellings and different conversations on it already during more later time.
    Figure as 2,5 … 3 metrs (8 … 10 ft) in that place where all ravine is blocked by snow (so we see in photos) can be quite real for quantity of snow in May. When snow has collected in current all the winter long.
    I do not think that there were nonprofessionals (by the way professionals then at all were not), there were skilled man for such searches, but all of them estimated "approximately", therefore all figures such "round". To measure and do all very precisely in such conditions it is absolutely impossible. Even now, when there are many devices and technologies in such conditions there are many errors by the same searches. Even it is at professionals.


    So all of the testimonies must be questioned , and even all the hard evidences are questionable like the den, the tent cut from the inside , etc.

    If start do so it means that it is necessary reject all, then think up all on the, and all tell how it has been thought up. I do not think that it is necessary replace all facts (even if they are not clear also their researcher cannot explain) imaginations and begin exist in alternative reality, instead of usual life.

    April 05, 2019, 01:51:58 PM
    Reply #87
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    WAB


    I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .

    No. Nobody tried fill ravine snow. Figure 2,5 and even 3 metrs there can be real. And the big figures it is result of conversations and retelling as it happens in joke about spoilt phone.
    The most important thing should be imagined: who and what for and as what means, it should do. If there is no definite answer on all these questions it turns out that all these assumptions are invention


    April 05, 2019, 01:53:01 PM
    Reply #88
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    WAB


    I don't argue that it was that deep , it is visible from the photos. I am asking myself is that quantity of snow has been put there on purpose. I mean someone filled the ravine with 4 m of snow over the bodies to hide them until spring and until they are badly decayed and unrecognisable .
    There's a lot of snow in that photo? Maybe they used a bulldozer?  kewl1

    No, they had many bulldozers.  bigjoke

    April 05, 2019, 01:54:30 PM
    Reply #89
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    WAB


    who knows? everything is possible with this case....let see what WAB thinks about the snow in 1959

    Now I have many information about last expedition to pass in March of this year, but I have not time to write all even in Russian. If who that undertakes translate it, I promise send to him texts at once as soon as them I will write.
    But I write them slowly because now lot of time leaves on experiments at my university. And still I should have time stop read course to students 4 years of training.
    Meanwhile I can give only the reference to some notes of one Russian forums where Alexander Alekseenkov (Shura) and I wrote in Russian.