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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Gravity Wind  (Read 7053 times)

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December 06, 2019, 08:27:07 AM
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MDGross


Several of the members were experienced in mountain hiking. More than likely Dyatlov knew on that last night that the angle of the slope would preclude the danger of an avalanche. I doubt, however, that any of the hikers had experience with or even heard of katabatic or gravity wind. Here's my scenario, inside the tent the group heard the sudden roar of nearly hurricane force wind. The tent was flapping wildly as if ready to set sail and fly off. They cut the tent open and rushed outside and scooped snow as fast as they could onto the top of the side of the tent facing the wind. The wind was ferocious and snow blowing every where. They decided to move down from the completely exposed slope to the shelter of the trees. They walked at a normal pace (what else could they do in such a wind) holding on to the person in front of them. They were pelted by blowing ice which accounts for the many scratches on each hiker's face. When they reached the trees, two hikers already had severe frostbite. A fire was built in a futile attempt to keep them alive. Four of the hikers decided to dig out a snow bunker in the small ravine down from the trees. Someone walked back to their two dead comrades and removed what clothing they could for extra warmth. But they too died one by one of hypothermia. One of the last men alive removed the coat and hat from the deceased woman and put them on. Over the following three plus months snow continued to weigh down on their bodies. The pressure finally compressed the chests of two of them. Another hiker had his skull compressed. Meanwhile the other three hikers, including Dyatlov, struggled to return to the tent to gather shoes, coats and gloves for themselves and their colleagues. They had no chance in the wind and cold.
 

December 06, 2019, 08:59:02 AM
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Star man

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It’s unlikely.  The tent was only about 300 metres from the summit.  This  doesn’t allow for the colder denser air to gain much energy.  This is a simplistic conservative estimation process.

E= V(Dc-Dw)g.h

E is energy J
V is volume of air displaced m3
Dc is density colder air
Dw is density warmer air
g is gravity acceleration m/s2
h is vertical height m

You can estimate changes in air density using ideal gas equation for given temperature differences.

Then equate energy for unit mass of cold air in terms of kinetic energy and you will get air velocity, but this would be the maximum possible as it does not account for resistive losses as the air flows down the slope which are likely to be significant.  I haven’t plugged any numbers in but off the top of my head I think the wind speed generated would be in the region of 30 m/s or less

Regards
Star man
 

December 07, 2019, 05:32:59 PM
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Nigel Evans


The autopsies of the ravine four showed that the rib cage injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon were the cause of death not acquired after death. They both demonstrated internal bleeding from the trauma, this proves that their hearts were still beating.
 

December 08, 2019, 08:38:21 AM
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sarapuk

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It is highly likely that all of the Dyatlov Group knew about the sudden extreme winds etc that could develop in that area. And those crushing injuries most likely happened very quickly and not over a few weeks or months
DB
 

December 08, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
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MDGross


The autopsies were so hastily and ineptly done that it's extremely difficult to know what evidence was found of internal bleeding. I'm not sure after three months of being frozen then days of decomposition that any conclusions can be trusted. Any physicians out in cyberspace who can respond?
 

December 09, 2019, 04:56:08 AM
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Nigel Evans


The autopsies were so hastily and ineptly done that it's extremely difficult to know what evidence was found of internal bleeding. I'm not sure after three months of being frozen then days of decomposition that any conclusions can be trusted. Any physicians out in cyberspace who can respond?
Ludmila :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743"the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood. The pericardium contained up to 20 cubic cm of yellowish transparent liquid.
Semyon :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351?rbid=17743"The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood. The pericardium contained up to 15 cm3 of opaque amber liquid."
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:25:30 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 09, 2019, 10:18:53 AM
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MDGross


I read somewhere that Semyon was found wearing Ludmila's coat and hat. If several feet of snow suddenly fell upon them in their snow den, how could he have removed her coat and hat? I don't support the theory that they died of shock waves from a bomb. It's possible that a sudden movement of snow buried them and caused their deaths instead of hypothermia. Then the question is how did Semyon end up with the coat and hat.
 

December 09, 2019, 10:49:09 AM
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Nigel Evans


Semyon wasn't wearing a hat when found. What might have happened is that it was found close to him and placed with him and hence recorded as his at the morgue. I'm not sure about Lyudmila's jacket, from the pre event photos they seem to have a similar jacket each?

« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 11:06:49 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 09, 2019, 05:36:02 PM
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lucid-nonsense


  I haven’t plugged any numbers in but off the top of my head I think the wind speed generated would be in the region of 30 m/s or less


108 km/h is hardly a refreshing breeze! Is that for the gravity wind alone? As in, there could be normal wind added to that?
It is highly likely that all of the Dyatlov Group knew about the sudden extreme winds etc that could develop in that area.

Yes, they at least knew about it the day before; they wrote about it in their journal.
 

December 09, 2019, 11:34:32 PM
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Star man

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30 m/s was a worst case off the top of my head guess.  108km/hr is not a tent destroying storm .

So, for a significant 20 celcius temperature gradient the maximum air velocity not taking account of significant resistive losses is about a half of my original guess 17 m/s.  You could probably take off another 30-50% for resistive energy losses.  Which gives a katabatic wind speed of about 20 mph.

Regards
Star man
 

December 10, 2019, 05:13:10 AM
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Nigel Evans


From memory a resident in Ivdel stated that he had experienced that night the strongest winds since moving there eight years previously.
 

December 10, 2019, 08:06:45 AM
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MDGross


I believe  the tent was constructed of two four-person tents sewn together. How much wind and blowing ice would be needed to cause a rip in the seam? Also, the tent was tied to skis and ski poles. This worked when camping on level ground or in a forest opening, but how secure when the tent was set up on a mountain slope with possibly high winds? In retrospect, yes, the group should have remained in the tent. But the hikers it seems only had minutes to decide in brutal weather conditions and in pitch blackness if the tent was going to give way. If they felt that it was, then seeking shelter in the trees below made sense.
 

December 10, 2019, 08:33:51 AM
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Nigel Evans


then seeking shelter in the trees below made sense.
So why not take all your clothing with you, particularly footwear? You're avoiding the core question wrt the DPI - why leave half dressed?
 

December 10, 2019, 08:54:05 AM
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Star man

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The tent was in the main still standing.  The seems were cut from inside.  If you study the cuts and tears there is evidence to suggest that the cuts were made first then someone pulled at the cuts to make the holes bigger.  There is no reason for anyone to do that in the case of a high wind.

As Nigel points out - why not take your clothes?   Rustem took one of his boots but not the other.  Why?  If he had time to put one on surely he must have thought he had time for the other unless something happened that forced him to abandon putting his other boot on.  So what could do that?  Unlikely to be high winds.

Regards

Star man
 

December 10, 2019, 10:47:40 AM
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MDGross


I'm a firm believer of Occam's razor: explanations that require the fewest assumptions are often the correct ones.
Was the Dyatlov party murdered by the KBG, Soviet military or someone else?
Were the hikers drunk, drugged or fighting among themselves?
Did a missile or bombs explode around them?
These and many other theories are possible. All anyone can do is consider the circumstantial evidence (which may or may not have been tampered with depending on the theory) and make an educated guess.
I believe the theories that require the fewest assumptions involve naturally occurring phenomena – avalanche, snow slide or as the 2019 Russian investigation called it, a "hurricane."
Whatever happened occurred suddenly with no warning. The hikers believed their lives were in imminent danger. No time to sort through shoes and coats, just get out of the tent as quickly as possible. In the case of a perceived avalanche or snow slab, wouldn't each person make a mad dash for the trees? But once they got out of the tent and were confronted with a brutally strong wind and the blackness of night, wouldn't it be best to walk single file holding on to the person in front of you or else risk getting separated? This is certainly one of the simplest explanations. But it's only my considered guess and nothing more. Only nine people know for certain what happened, and as the saying goes: they ain't talking.
 

December 10, 2019, 11:02:13 AM
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Nigel Evans



A military exercise, missiles fueled with nitric acid and amines is my theory with the ravine four being crushed by a tracked vehicle.
I don't think they were murdered.
 

December 10, 2019, 12:58:12 PM
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MDGross


A well thought-out scenario. Do you think exposure to nitric acid could account to the unusual "orange" color of the corpses? Do you have any documentation that a military exercise was being conducted on the evening of Feb. 1 in the area of the Dyatlov party? In the vast expanse of Siberia, what are the chances that the Soviet military would be carrying out a major exercise in such proximity of the hikers? Wouldn't trees be damaged and tracks everywhere? Also, someone run over by a tracked vehicle would have crushed bones, heart, lungs, etc. This wasn't the case if the autopsies can be believed, which is questionable itself. So many pieces would have to fall in place: missile launches, bombs dropped, soldiers, tanks, etc. on the move that is seems highly improbable to me. But a fascinating idea and as always, who knows for sure?
 

December 10, 2019, 01:38:01 PM
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jarrfan


Dear MDgross: If there were nitric acid spilled on the hikers why was there none in the surrounding area? As far as tree burning, there is one discussion of tree burns but it cannot be documented as to when this happened. There was a piece of rocket found in the area well after the incident and I am not certain if they have pinpointed the date of when it became on the mountain.

I have to say the ravine 4's injuries probably were not caused by a tractor running over them, there would be bruises and track marks on their skin.

It is possible the orange color was from being frostbitten, as the first five were exposed to the sun, it could also be sun damage on dead skin....

There are more questions than answers...
 

December 10, 2019, 02:07:40 PM
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MDGross


I agree with you jarrfan. The military exercise was proposed by Nigel Evans and not me. I lean toward hurricane force winds that came upon the group so suddenly that they became panicked and disoriented since they weren't sure what was happening.
 

December 10, 2019, 02:26:35 PM
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Nigel Evans


A well thought-out scenario. Do you think exposure to nitric acid could account to the unusual "orange" color of the corpses? Yes and the foam on YuriD's cheek and the orange powder on his clothing. Do you have any documentation that a military exercise was being conducted on the evening of Feb. 1 in the area of the Dyatlov party? No, but the extensive coverup hints at a military exercise. In the vast expanse of Siberia, what are the chances that the Soviet military would be carrying out a major exercise in such proximity of the hikers? Wouldn't trees be damaged and tracks everywhere? Ivanov noted burnt trees, the theory needs an extensive clean up.. Also, someone run over by a tracked vehicle would have crushed bones, heart, lungs, etc. The crushing was through a layer of snow (say 1 metre? see - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.0). This wasn't the case if the autopsies can be believed, which is questionable itself. So many pieces would have to fall in place: missile launches, bombs dropped, soldiers, tanks, etc. on the move that is seems highly improbable to me. But a fascinating idea and as always, who knows for sure?
 

December 10, 2019, 02:29:09 PM
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Nigel Evans


If there were nitric acid spilled on the hikers why was there none in the surrounding area?
High winds?
Also something caused the footsteps to stay there for 3 weeks. Chemicals?
 

December 10, 2019, 02:46:03 PM
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Star man

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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation.  Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.  There is also clear evidence that the fire was still burning after his and Krivonischenko’s death.  If Doroschenko had frost bite before the fire was lit why would he climb the tree himself?   If the fire was lit beforehand then he should not have got such severe frost bite in the first place or died before the fire had burned out.  So he and probably the others must have climbed the tree with severe frost bite, or stayed in the tree long enough to get severe frost bite. Climbing the tree could not have been simply to collect fire wood and definitely not to get away from strong winds.  The skin from the hikers thighs was found frozen into the bark of the tree.

Regards

Star man
 

December 10, 2019, 09:21:57 PM
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lucid-nonsense




Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation. 

Regards

Star man

Possibly he gave himself that frostbite climbing the tree?

To me he probably climbed the tree to try to see something. Could you see the slope with the tent from the bottom of the cedar? Either he was trying to spot the tent, the three who back to the tent, or maybe some sign of human life.

Quote
Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.

If his hands were already really cold/frostbitten, he wouldn't have felt the skin come off.
 

December 11, 2019, 04:53:22 AM
Reply #23
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Nigel Evans


Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation.  Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.  There is also clear evidence that the fire was still burning after his and Krivonischenko’s death.  If Doroschenko had frost bite before the fire was lit why would he climb the tree himself?   If the fire was lit beforehand then he should not have got such severe frost bite in the first place or died before the fire had burned out.  So he and probably the others must have climbed the tree with severe frost bite, or stayed in the tree long enough to get severe frost bite. Climbing the tree could not have been simply to collect fire wood and definitely not to get away from strong winds.  The skin from the hikers thighs was found frozen into the bark of the tree.

Regards

Star man
It might not have been frostbite?
 

December 11, 2019, 03:09:47 PM
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation. 

Regards

Star man

Possibly he gave himself that frostbite climbing the tree?

To me he probably climbed the tree to try to see something. Could you see the slope with the tent from the bottom of the cedar? Either he was trying to spot the tent, the three who back to the tent, or maybe some sign of human life.

Quote
Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.

If his hands were already really cold/frostbitten, he wouldn't have felt the skin come off.

Given that it was night and dark I doubt that they would have been able to see more than 50 to 100 metres even with a fire going.  So probably would not have been able to see the tent or very far up the slope.  There is speculation that they left a flashlight as a marker but I don’t support this as they had a greater need to take the flashlight with them to increase their chances of survival.

Doroshenko and Krivonischenko probably got their frost bite while clinging to the tree for some time before the hikers  eventually got a chance to light a fire.  The hikers were experienced and certainly would know how to light a fire.  If Doroshenko arrived at the cedar in a bad way with frost bite the others would more likely climb the tree to collect fire wood or collect wood from the surrounding ground.  It is unlikely that it would have taken that long to get a fire going.  They did have to use a fair number of matches.  About 27 to 28 ish if I remember correctly but even this many matches can easily be used within 10 minutes.  So this still leaves a question as to why Doroschenko climbed the tree.  It seems to me that they climbed it in haste to find safety from the same threat that forced them away from the tent.  They stayed on the tree for some time before deciding it was safe to come down or because they had to come down to light a fire to save their lives.

Regards

Star man

 

December 11, 2019, 03:17:31 PM
Reply #25
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Star man

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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation.  Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.  There is also clear evidence that the fire was still burning after his and Krivonischenko’s death.  If Doroschenko had frost bite before the fire was lit why would he climb the tree himself?   If the fire was lit beforehand then he should not have got such severe frost bite in the first place or died before the fire had burned out.  So he and probably the others must have climbed the tree with severe frost bite, or stayed in the tree long enough to get severe frost bite. Climbing the tree could not have been simply to collect fire wood and definitely not to get away from strong winds.  The skin from the hikers thighs was found frozen into the bark of the tree.

Regards

Star man
It might not have been frostbite?

What else could it have been?

Regards

Star man
 

December 12, 2019, 01:37:13 AM
Reply #26
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Nigel Evans


Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
 

December 12, 2019, 12:05:58 PM
Reply #27
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sarapuk

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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.

Yes some kind of electrical event. An electrical event of unknown origin. An event of overwhelming force.
DB
 

December 12, 2019, 02:53:23 PM
Reply #28
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Star man

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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.

Nigel, it doesn’t seem to credible to me that Doroshenko could have been exposed to and especially not drenched in rocket fuel ( I presume you refer to fuming nitric acid?), such that it only caused severe damage to his extremities.  Fuming nitric acid would not only leave orange staining on his clothes it would likely disintegrate them.  Fuming nitric has a tendency to degrade and oxidise any organic material and can cause it to burst into flames. 

The explanation of frost bite is much more likely.

I think you would need to explain how his extremities were burned but the rest of his body wasn’t?

Regards

Star man
 

December 13, 2019, 06:00:52 AM
Reply #29
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Nigel Evans


Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.

Nigel, it doesn’t seem to credible to me that Doroshenko could have been exposed to and especially not drenched ok, drenched is too strong, a swirling vapour perhaps. in rocket fuel ( I presume you refer to fuming nitric acid?), no it could be amines. such that it only caused severe damage to his extremities.  Like Zina's face? Fuming nitric acid would not only leave orange staining on his clothes it would likely disintegrate them. His relative reported that the clothing was disintegrating Fuming nitric has a tendency to degrade and oxidise any organic material and can cause it to burst into flames.  A good explanation for Yuri K's leg?

The explanation of frost bite is much more likely. Given that Yuri D clearly died before the others and yet he has far worse "frostbite" combined with Zina's face, Yuri D's clothing, Yuri D's foam on cheek, Yuri K's leg then i'd give it as 50/50 it was frostbite and not something else.
I think you would need to explain how his extremities were burned but the rest of his body wasn’t? Swirling vapour with large variation in density creating localised effects perhaps. For the electrical narrative it's easy.

Regards

Star man