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Author Topic: Night lights and bears...  (Read 2125 times)

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December 26, 2019, 05:30:06 AM
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Chris Wise


Hope everyone is enjoying the winter holidays.

Maybe another scenario is worth contemplating, more straightforward than many I have read.  The night lights, most likely military tests - parachute flares and/or mines - started abruptly. The sleeping hikers would have been extremely alarmed at the noise and lights inside their tent with no external view and the exit secured, so they slashed the tent to see what was happening - some of the cuts were only a few centimetres long.  Seeing nearby and violent flashes and explosions it was time to leave in a hurry - aside from the shock, the explosions could well have been thought as a precursor to an attack or other imminent danger on the ground, where they camped.  So they slashed their way out of the sealed tent, and they started to make their way towards the nearest cover.  Initially this was in sufficient panic that they left much of their survival equipment, clothing and footwear behind. Then the pyrotechnics stopped at least for a while, and they regrouped and continued at a more measured pace  in pain caused by the rocky snow covered terrain beneath their inadequately covered feet.  After that, they reached the point in their descent where, away from the lee of the ridge, the snow would cover their tracks over the coming weeks - that would also apply for the tracks of the three who would subsequently try to return to the tent.  Their tracks in the first few hundred meters survived until the rescuers arrived because they were sheltered  by the ridge and there was no fresh snowfall, the very bad weather in 1 February having passed on.

Reaching the forest all nine hikers managed to start their fire after some time. Although out of sight from any threat to the tent, the group was by now suffering severe frostbite and hypothermia. The worst afflicted attempted to gain warmth from the fire (and suffered skin burns while doing so), whilst the less afflicted started to look for better shelter.  Many reports say the ravine in which four of the hikers were found under 4m of snow was 75m away from the cedar tree.

The seven hikers found the nearby ravine and judged it suitable for an emergency shelter, at least until any danger at the tent could be discounted, probably at dawn. For the same reasons as that judgement, a family of brown bears had decided the same thing at the start of winter.  Bears do not hibernate through winter - their body temperature does not drop to match their surroundings where they cannot be revived.  Instead, they are in a state of torpor, and awaken quickly if disturbed.  So could it be that the hikers disturbed a family of bears themselves sheltering from winter in the nearby ravine, and that the adult bears would have reacted violently to the sudden and immediate perceived threat to their family?  The bears would probably already have had their winter torpor disturbed by the pyrotechnics, and so would have reacted to protect their family.

If so, the subsequent violence may explain the injuries to the four found in the ravine (augmented by the water flow over soft tissue in one or two cases), and also the bruised knuckles, minor skull fracture and skin wounds on the others.  The 5m or so of lost branches at the base of the cedar tree could have been a desperate attempt by one or two hikers to avoid the attacking bears.  By the time this happened, the two most afflicted by hypothermia next to the fire had died, so were no threat to the bears and were left untouched.

The remaining three hikers managed to escape the forest to attempt to return to the tent, the pyrotechnics having long since stopped. They were not together as again they were leaving in a state of panic at what had happened in the forest, and because of the threat of the bears’ persuit.  At different points, they expired from exhaustion, shock and hypothermia.   Their tracks from the forest were covered by drift snow before the first rescuers arrived.


I’m open to corrections on many points (particularly the winter behaviour of bears), but I think the facts are right and the suppositions regarding the military tests and bears leave less unexplained than some other theories.  I don’t subscribe to the ultrasound theory - none of the many subsequent visitors have recorded any instance of it there.  I also discount the animal /yeti threats due to the lack of non-human footprints near the tent as well as the tent and its contents not being further damaged.  The topography reportedly renders an avalanche highly unlikely.  I don’t think the stove was to blame as the tent wasn’t burned, and fumes alone would have been unlikely alone to prompt a barefoot escape to the forest.



« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 02:10:10 AM by Teddy »
 

December 26, 2019, 06:35:36 AM
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Wonderer


I think that a bear attack would leave obvious marks in their clothes and bodies. None were found.
 

December 26, 2019, 07:37:40 AM
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Chris Wise


Well, the four in the ravine were unfortunately in a terrible state with some having suffered chest compressions and broken ribs and bones beyond human capability, and reportedly not consistent with the injuries they would have suffered solely from falling into the ravine.  There were also many surface tissue wounds.  Hence the bear suggestion. The other hikers were either already dead or had to flee, possibly after initially trying to save their colleagues in the ravine.
 

December 26, 2019, 08:41:39 AM
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MDGross


Very interesting idea. But bears have formidable claws. A bear attack would have ripped the group's clothing and tore through their skin. No wounds like this were found. Also, if a bear attacked one of the group, wouldn't the others run. And if the bear caught each of them, wouldn't their bodies be scattered over a much larger area?
 

December 26, 2019, 10:07:35 AM
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Nigel Evans


Nothing fits the bear theory which would surely include the bears feasting on their victims having not eaten for months.
 

December 26, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
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Chris Wise


The bears thought is in the absence of any other credible larger-than-human alternative, though the Swedish expedition in January/February 2019 pointed to the possible collapse of the shelter near the cedar tree on top of the four as the cause of the broken rubs and other bones, maybe with the broken bones happening over some time rather than instantaneous. Don’t honestly know whether bears in winter torpor would want to eat over defending themselves and finding another den: absent any disturbance they wouldn’t eat for some weeks more.

Are there other large mammals perhaps with or without claws in the region?

 
 

December 27, 2019, 02:15:42 AM
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Chris Wise


The den collapse and post-mortem rib breaks under the weight of snow is persuasive, though doesn’t explain the climbing of the cedar tree by one or more of the team in darkness - which would only be to get away from someone or an animal: there was plenty of fuel for the fire at ground level, and nothing to see up there until dawn, which was later.  If there was a fight at the cedar tree, that wouldn’t be a reason to climb 4 or 5 metres in the physical state they were in either.  So I suspect there was at least some threat (possibly only perceived) from an external party, whether or not in direct connection with the collapse of the den.
 

December 27, 2019, 03:50:37 AM
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Nigel Evans


The bears thought is in the absence of any other credible larger-than-human alternative, though the Swedish expedition in January/February 2019 pointed to the possible collapse of the shelter near the cedar tree on top of the four as the cause of the broken rubs and other bones, maybe with the broken bones happening over some time rather than instantaneous. Don’t honestly know whether bears in winter torpor would want to eat over defending themselves and finding another den: absent any disturbance they wouldn’t eat for some weeks more.

Are there other large mammals perhaps with or without claws in the region?


This is my theory for a larger-than-human alternative  kewl1
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.90
 

December 27, 2019, 04:59:40 AM
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Nigel Evans


The den collapse and post-mortem rib breaks under the weight of snow is persuasive, The rib fractures weren't post mortem, Lyudmila and Semyon died of internal bleeding from those fractures. though doesn’t explain the climbing of the cedar tree by one or more of the team in darkness - which would only be to get away from someone or an animal: there was plenty of fuel for the fire at ground level, and nothing to see up there until dawn, at ground level most of the wood was green sapling which doesn't burn well. Cedar branches are much better. which was later.  So why did they cut nine slits in the tent and why are there mystery frames from three cameras if there was nothign to see? If there was a fight at the cedar tree, that wouldn’t be a reason to climb 4 or 5 metres in the physical state they were in either.  So I suspect there was at least some threat (possibly only perceived) from an external party, whether or not in direct connection with the collapse of the den.
 

January 01, 2020, 05:27:43 PM
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Of course it may have been a Yeti or two?  You could read my thoughts and considerations in "Exploring the yeti theory"

Regards

Star man
 

January 01, 2020, 08:32:56 PM
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jarrfan


There are a few points that don't add up when it comes to the hikers. When Shavrin opened the tent with an ice ax, he found a slab of pork fat that was cut into strips ready for consumption. It sounds as if the group never had dinner and their last meal had been 6 to 8 hours before death, if that is correct.

The injuries on Yuri Doroshinko appear as if he were held underneath his arms and by his shin area as if he were carried by 2 people he did not wish to be carried by and struggled vigorously. That is my take on his injuries. Unless they were postmortem bruises which I cannot confirm whether they would be blue or brown. The ravine 4 had broken ribs and bled from that  so they did not get the rib fractures after death from packed snow, but before. Lyudia had blood material in her stomach, or what they said was red which could mean her tongue was injured and she swallowed some blood but maybe the elements took the rest of her tongue and eyes.

Yuri K had shin injuries as if perhaps someone was pulling him by his legs/shin area and dragging him to where they found him.  He also had a severe cut on the back of his head which could come from draging. He does not have similar armpit bruising as the other Yuri did.

What ever happened at the tent made all of the hikers leave immediately without protection that is for certain and it might have been before they went to sleep.

The ravine 4 could not have sustained the injuries and then carried on making the den. They crossed the ravine, which in the summertime looks not so deep, and made the den on the other side which had to have taken quite a bit of work. Then they leave the den and die in the ravine. If they crossed the ravine, how could it be so deep that they injured themselves so badly?

Any kind of a bear attack would leave lethal wounds from the claws or teeth and none of that was evident.

As with the mystery, we still may not know why they left the tent for certain death....


 

January 02, 2020, 02:43:23 AM
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Star man

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The injuries are consistent with being attacked, knocked to the ground, dragged about and then beaten by something very powerful. Your D armpit injuries could have been a result of climbing the cedar with badly frost bitten hands and having to use his arms to cling on to the tree. 

Regards
Star man
 

January 02, 2020, 03:14:37 AM
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Nigel Evans


Someone fell down badly from the cedar leaving bits of fabric and skin/flesh on it. Yuri D is believed to be that person. Incidentally this gives another reason for his accelerated frostbite, there is no wind in the forest unless you climb a tree...
It's not true that Lyudmila's stomach contained blood. The pathologist simply recorded a "reddish brown mass".

Imo the shin injuries could be consistent with a week's cross country skiing with 1959 equipment. Ditto Zina's "baton" bruise, they took turns to pull the sled with a rope around their waist.
 

January 03, 2020, 12:19:07 AM
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Monika


hello,

The problem with the theory of bears disturbed by Dyatlovs during construction of the den is that the picture shows that the den has been completed. Four seats were created on the floor with pieces of clothing on them. If during the construction of the den they disturb the bears, they should not have time to finish it.

And if Kovaletov as the only remained unharmed, I can't imagine, he could dig up and prepare the den completely (among other things, without gloves). And why would he create four seats if the other three comrades were so badly injured? He must have known he couldn't put them in the sitting position inside.

In my opinion, the den was built by all four at a time when they haven't been hurt yet. What happened next is a big question ... Why didn't they stay inside the den when it was finished? And why did the trio Igor, Zina and Slobodin (there were four seats inside the day) not participate in its construction?
 

January 03, 2020, 12:59:29 AM
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Nigel Evans


hello,

The problem with the theory of bears disturbed by Dyatlovs during construction of the den is that the picture shows that the den has been completed. Four seats were created on the floor with pieces of clothing on them. If during the construction of the den they disturb the bears, they should not have time to finish it.

And if Kovaletov as the only remained unharmed, I can't imagine, he could dig up and prepare the den completely (among other things, without gloves). And why would he create four seats if the other three comrades were so badly injured? He must have known he couldn't put them in the sitting position inside.

In my opinion, the den was built by all four at a time when they haven't been hurt yet. What happened next is a big question ... Why didn't they stay inside the den when it was finished? Perhaps they did - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.90 And why did the trio Igor, Zina and Slobodin (there were four seats inside the day) not participate in its construction? Perhaps they never reached the cedar, possibly blinded.
 

January 03, 2020, 03:27:42 PM
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jarrfan


I reread the autopsy report on Lyudmila and it says there was about 100 grams of coagulated blood in her stomach.

I read the report by Atmanaki on Sheet 213 on and when they opened the tent there were backpacks, buckets and a stove. He said the tent door was UNBUTTONED and he believed the hikers were stacking these things as a barricade from the wind catching the door and causing tears. I think this needs further investigation, because if they were barricading themselves in, what was outside? or was it just for the wind? If the door was unbuttoned, how did the hikers escape? If a member went out to relieve himself, how did they leave the tent?

He went on to say that there was a container of cocoa that had been brewed and was frozen, this plus the pork fat sliced. In the face of barricading themselves in whether or would be wind or whatever, I would think a lot of commotion would ensue and how could this pot of cocoa remain undisturbed?

So it sounds as though they had to cut the tent to get out, but there is a discrepancy about that by Shavrin. For whatever reason they  left the tent, the force did not ravage the tent or its contents and the hikers rushed out.

 

January 03, 2020, 04:47:48 PM
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Nigel Evans


I reread the autopsy report on Lyudmila and it says there was about 100 grams of coagulated blood in her stomach.

I read the report by Atmanaki on Sheet 213 on and when they opened the tent there were backpacks, buckets and a stove. He said the tent door was UNBUTTONED and he believed the hikers were stacking these things as a barricade from the wind catching the door and causing tears. I think this needs further investigation, because if they were barricading themselves in, what was outside? or was it just for the wind? If the door was unbuttoned, how did the hikers escape? If a member went out to relieve himself, how did they leave the tent?

He went on to say that there was a container of cocoa that had been brewed and was frozen, this plus the pork fat sliced. In the face of barricading themselves in whether or would be wind or whatever, I would think a lot of commotion would ensue and how could this pot of cocoa remain undisturbed?

So it sounds as though they had to cut the tent to get out, but there is a discrepancy about that by Shavrin. For whatever reason they  left the tent, the force did not ravage the tent or its contents and the hikers rushed out.
Hiya, I think you're looking in the wrong place for the autopsy. Try under the case files 01. I'm on my phone currently so pasting the link is a pain can do tomorrow.

They didn't have any means of brewing the cocoa, I think it was in a sealed flask thatt they had brought from the previous camp?
Surely the entrance would be the coldest / draughtiest place to sleep so they would pile their gear there as a sort of barrier? The cuts don't require everyone to exit from them, some might have used the entrance.
 

January 03, 2020, 06:04:40 PM
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jarrfan


Nigel Evans: The report about the blood is in the autopsy report under deaths from  main page. I looked at the report you speak of does say dark brown mucosal mass.... it goes on to say, in the small intestine there is a mucosal mass of dirty yellow color....there are fecal masses of dark green color....the said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing closed lethal trauma to the chest.  This does not negate that the brown mucosal mass was not coagulated blood. The loss of her tongue which may have been injured from her biting her tongue, may have been from time in the water and creatures.

On sheet 214 of testimony, Atmanaki states there were backpacks, buckets and STOVE up against the entrance as a barricade. Perhaps a small stove just for heating water or cocoa?

 

January 04, 2020, 04:27:00 AM
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Nigel Evans


Nigel Evans: The report about the blood is in the autopsy report under deaths from  main page. I looked at the report you speak of does say dark brown mucosal mass.... it goes on to say, in the small intestine there is a mucosal mass of dirty yellow color....there are fecal masses of dark green color....the said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing closed lethal trauma to the chest.  This does not negate that the brown mucosal mass was not coagulated blood. The loss of her tongue which may have been injured from her biting her tongue, may have been from time in the water and creatures.

On sheet 214 of testimony, Atmanaki states there were backpacks, buckets and STOVE up against the entrance as a barricade. Perhaps a small stove just for heating water or cocoa?
Hi. All the translations of Lyudmila's autopsy i have read state a brown or reddish brown mass. Sadly this was never analysed to determine it's composition. The "blood in stomach theory" is just a myth like the yeti photo.

They didn't carry a spirit stove or similar (this was 1959). They heated food from a camp fire. The "stove" was an ingenious means of heating the air inside the tent and drying clothes using firewood. Part of the ingenuity was that they constructed the tent to have two modes of deployment (1) high mode - in sheltered places like the forest they could use the stove which was slung along the apex of the tent (see the photos/diagrams). (2) low mode - in high winds the tent apex was say just 4 feet high but they couldn't use the stove as they couldn't sleep underneath it.
Regards