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Author Topic: The military knew about Dyatlov deaths since Fev 6th  (Read 11522 times)

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May 27, 2020, 07:38:02 AM
Reply #30
Offline

Marley


Still, if the warhead would be ejected from the body of the rocket, after which it would explode at a given altitude above ground, wouldn't some traces of the warhead itself (debris) be able to still exist and be found ?

I'm sure it's possible that chunks/debris of a device can survive an explosion and can be found in the vicinity. I don't think its necessary so. If all explosive devices would leave a significant amount of debris behind we'd still be wading through the remnants of WOI and II.
 

May 27, 2020, 09:10:10 AM
Reply #31
Offline

Marley




Evidence for a missile :-
  • Orange snow.............................................................................no
  • Orange powder on YuriD's sweater................................................no
  • Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt......................................hm. maybe.
  • Burnt skin and burnt clothing.......................................................no
  • Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on
    three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.....................no
  • Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid
    tissue within the protection of the eye socket
    (Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?)...........................................no way
  • Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed
    chemical reaction.......................................................................no
  • Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.....................you're onto something here  grin1
  • Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".........well, official stories heh

I still agree with your missile theory though  dance1

Hi, it's good that you agree with the solution, but disagreeing with the case less so.  kewl1
Would you care to expand on just "no"/"no way"?

Regards.

Well, evidence means there is an obvious, or at least a plausible connection between the thing you are trying to prove (i.e. missile) and the pieces of evidence (i.e. orange stuff). AFAIK there is no known relationship between orange stuff on snow, faces and sweaters and missiles in the sky. There is no reason to attribute the burns on kids dying from hypothermia to missiles when there is this obvious source, the fire they were trying to start/keep going, for their burns. The same goes for the other injuries you mention. It really doesn't point to there being a missile.

I'm not sure about Ivanov's burnt treetops. On the one hand it is the kind of thing someone would make up (even subconsciously!) to strengthen his/her story about Unidentified Flying Objects. On the other hand it's so unassuming that I think it may be a proper recollection. I lean towards the latter explanation. People don't make up simple stuff to prove something extraordinary. I think he remembered something.

As far as the photographs are concerned: frame 34 an Zolotaryov's "three heads" are really important evidence. The "plane" pictures aren't photographs, imho. I have to write a separate post on that. Cheers!


 

May 27, 2020, 09:26:00 AM
Reply #32
Offline

Marley


3. On self-liquidators/self-destruct switches. The thing about the R-12 that caught my attention was its fully autonomous guidance system. It was supposed to find its way all by its self without any (emergency) input from ground/radio control. IMHO ground control would not have been able to blow up the missile in case of emergency. And its guidance system would have made the missile particularly vulnerable to integrational drift without the on board computer ever “knowing” it deviated from course.  What’s your opinion?
Further of interest in this matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelsat_708 "On February 15, 1996, the Long March 3B rocket failed during launch, veering off course immediately after liftoff and crashing into a village near the launch site (probably Mayelin Village).[1] An enormous explosion destroyed most of the rocket and killed an unknown number of inhabitants.[3]"

I agree. We can pave the road from Amsterdam to Bucharest to Moscow with the all the reports on missile/bomb/nuke accidents since the end of WWII. The favorite “oops, sorry” activity of military around the world seems to be the shooting down of civilian aircraft. The Americans have an excellent track record of losing nukes - above the Atlantic, in the Mediterranean, in the desert sands of Morocco. A notable incident in the USSR was of course the Nedelin disaster (1960). An undisclosed number of people, including the commanding officer of Strategic Rocket Forces died in a launch pad explosion of an R-16. In short: sh*t happens, all over the world.

The initial reaction of governments/military all over the world is predictably the same: Who? Me? No! I didn’t do anything! Somebody else stole the cookies – shot the plane down – it was an engine failure – there’s nothing wrong with the Kursk – Chernobyl? What’s a Chernobyl?  – Nothing to see here people, move along. The official story on the death of Chief Marshall Nedelin was that he died in a plane crash. The families of other victims were told by officials to tell the same lie about the death of their loved ones.

We could be looking at a same thing here. Possibly.

 

May 27, 2020, 10:22:09 AM
Reply #33
Offline

alecsandros


I agree. We can pave the road from Amsterdam to Bucharest to Moscow with the all the reports on missile/bomb/nuke accidents since the end of WWII.
kewl1
Quote
The initial reaction of governments/military all over the world is predictably the same: Who? Me? No! I didn’t do anything! Somebody else stole the cookies – shot the plane down – it was an engine failure – there’s nothing wrong with the Kursk – Chernobyl? What’s a Chernobyl?  – Nothing to see here people, move along. The official story on the death of Chief Marshall Nedelin was that he died in a plane crash. The families of other victims were told by officials to tell the same lie about the death of their loved ones.
In Romania the cover story for the Revolution of 1989 was that it was caused - and the victims caused by - the "terrorists". Only that there weren't any to be found...

Quote
We could be looking at a same thing here. Possibly.
I think the same...
 

May 27, 2020, 11:47:42 AM
Reply #34
Offline

WAB



.................................................................

Another problem: in the interview that Aleksandrovich Dubinin, Lyuda's brother, gave, he mentions a "metal ring" being found on the scene, belonging (probably) to the C-200 (S-200) complex (air-to-ground missile with a range of 300km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-200_(missile)#Description).

Any comments on that ?


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
2. Any rockets do not put anywhere but only there where they are necessary. Therefore if you spend circle in radius to 200 km (300 km are you have in vain believed to stereotyped article in Wikipedia, there weight of errors. It is radar has radius of 270 km, instead of the rocket) from Dyatlov pass receive that they there are required only for this purpose what to cover from air of den of bears and settlement Mansi people with an aggregate number in 50 … 60 persons in the sum. I do not know as in Romania,  but at us this the expensive and is not necessary. There are other objects for such surface-to-air missile systems.
3. The Same operates with operational and tactical rockets. Near to Dyatlov pass (within action radius) they «are necessary just to shoot on the people », on more they will be not capable. To border much further is.
4. I am always be sceptical about interview to relatives of victims, if they not experts in that area about what they speak. It it is obvious not the expert and not so well knows about what spoke. This ring have found in 1999, and it to С-200 (S-200) has no relation.
 
URL=http://radikal.ru][/URL

It is detail nozzle terminations from УР-100 (UR-100) which fragments have found then and bit later even is closer to pass. It too later type of the rocket. Therefore we again rests against time machine
 

May 27, 2020, 11:55:49 AM
Reply #35
Offline

WAB



...................................................

WAB, thank you for your detailed answer. You obviously know a lot about the case. I hope you don’t mind me asking some follow-up questions.

Certainly I do not object. :)
We for this purpose also communicates at this forum.

1. Official records sometimes disappear when they’re not agreeable to the powers that be. The memoirs of the people at Kapustin Yar at that time can tell us more. Has anyone researched in depth, interviewed those involved at KY in the R-12 program about those first months (Jan, Feb) of 1959? Do we know for a fact that testing ended in Dec 1958? Nobody swept a final test gone wrong under the rug? Do you have testimony on that?

You in vain think that it is possible to spend what that «underground tests». First of all think of that, what for it is necessary … Neither I nor who that of developers of such rockets of it does not know and is not going to do. It is so long, careful and expensive work that anybody will not do it. Besides, all tests Р-12 (R-12) have passed very well and the reasons to do that that yet was not any.

2. I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, but are you saying there was an R-5M launch on Feb 2 at Kapustin Yar, targeted at Balkhash Lake? And you researched that one and ruled it out? That’s what you are saying?

Yes, it is so. Besides, I am is the expert in this technics and I accurately see where there are problems in the given information. And if they are not present, I do not understand, for what all complicate?

3. On self-liquidators/self-destruct switches. The thing about the R-12 that caught my attention was its fully autonomous guidance system. It was supposed to find its way all by its self without any (emergency) input from ground/radio control. IMHO ground control would not have been able to blow up the missile in case of emergency. And its guidance system would have made the missile particularly vulnerable to integrational drift without the on board computer ever “knowing” it deviated from course.  What’s your opinion?

It is natural that at Р-12 (R-12) was independent (inertial - on the basis of gyroscopes) prompting system, but during tests a self-liquidation radio channel as well as the channel of transfer of the telemetering information have been established. Besides, the Control system traces course to within degree shares, and change is less than on degree gives a command on self-liquidation. Otherwise the rocket will arrive at all there where it have started. Besides, the course change on pair degrees (by the way what to get on pass the rocket should deviate more than on 90 degrees) will lead to that Koriolis`s acceleration will destroy it mechanically. With travelling speeds more than some km/s of joke are bad.

4. The one thing that bothers me most about the R-12 theory is the possible orientation of the missile’s trajectory. As far as I know test missiles from Kapustin Yar were usually directed east – towards the “empty” plains of Kazakhstan –the salt marshes of Tengiz and as you mention Lake Balkhash. Do you know of any missile test at KY directed north during the 50s, 60s?

No, such tests were not and could not be, because there are no regular fields of falling of fragments and ultimate goals. Therefore it is simple conversations of people, which is very weak (or in general in any way) are informed on such actions.
Except this data which I have at University and in firms where projected rockets, and I have some persons which served on different rocket ranges. For example, my neighbour on my ranch served in Kapustin Yar  (KY) and Plesetsk.
 

May 27, 2020, 05:18:55 PM
Reply #36
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
There aren't any specifics, other than fitting the evidence.

And there really is no evidence to suggest it was a Missile or similar.
Evidence for a missile :-
  • Orange snow
  • Orange powder on YuriD's sweater.
  • Tips of branches of trees at treeline burnt.
  • Burnt skin and burnt clothing.
  • Injuries consistent with lightweight metal fragment impacts on three/four bodies each unique but of a similar pattern.
  • Facial injuries consistent with chemical burns including eyelid tissue within the protection of the eye socket (Zinaida - autopsy stated abrasions?).
  • Strange orange/brown skin at funerals suggesting unknown delayed chemical reaction.
  • Mysterious night photographs of intense light sources.
  • Askenadzi stated that in 1959 the official story was "a missile".

How much Orange Snow = not a lot.
Orange Powder on one persons sweater = !  ?
How many tips of branches were supposedly burnt = ! ?
Burnt Skin and Clothing = ! ?
Injuries due to lightweight metal fragments = where are the fragments in the bodies  ! ?
Facial Injuries = Look very similar to Cattle Mutilations.
Colour of some bodies at Funeral looked a bit strange = Not surprising after what they went through. Driven from their Tent, virtually naked for those conditions, in Sub Zero Temperatures. Experienced an UNKNOWN FORCE. And then end up being examined in a Laboratory.
The night photos, if thats what they were, didnt look like a Missile explosion or anything like.
The Official Story has never been revealed. All we have had are conflicting stories from the Authorities.
DB
 

May 28, 2020, 12:56:59 AM
Reply #37
Offline

alecsandros


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
2. Any rockets do not put anywhere but only there where they are necessary. Therefore if you spend circle in radius to 200 km (300 km are you have in vain believed to stereotyped article in Wikipedia, there weight of errors. It is radar has radius of 270 km, instead of the rocket) from Dyatlov pass receive that they there are required only for this purpose what to cover from air of den of bears and settlement Mansi people with an aggregate number in 50 … 60 persons in the sum. I do not know as in Romania,  but at us this the expensive and is not necessary. There are other objects for such surface-to-air missile systems.
3. The Same operates with operational and tactical rockets. Near to Dyatlov pass (within action radius) they «are necessary just to shoot on the people », on more they will be not capable. To border much further is.
4. I am always be sceptical about interview to relatives of victims, if they not experts in that area about what they speak. It it is obvious not the expert and not so well knows about what spoke. This ring have found in 1999, and it to С-200 (S-200) has no relation.
Dear WAB, as you know, there are many positions into which surface-to-ground rockets can be positioned. Tipically they are placed near important military or civilian installations or cities, or in/near testing grounds. Not all those positions are known , as some of them being in secret locations/emplacements.
Quote

It is detail nozzle terminations from УР-100 (UR-100) which fragments have found then and bit later even is closer to pass. It too later type of the rocket. Therefore we again rests against time machine
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
But how and why did that debris end up there ? Why were such debris found in that place ?
 

May 28, 2020, 02:28:13 AM
Reply #38
Offline

Nigel Evans



Well, evidence means there is an obvious, or at least a plausible connection between the thing you are trying to prove (i.e. missile) and the pieces of evidence (i.e. orange stuff). AFAIK there is no known relationship between orange stuff on snow, faces and sweaters and missiles in the sky. There is no reason to attribute the burns on kids dying from hypothermia to missiles when there is this obvious source, the fire they were trying to start/keep going, for their burns. The same goes for the other injuries you mention. It really doesn't point to there being a missile.

I'm not sure about Ivanov's burnt treetops. On the one hand it is the kind of thing someone would make up (even subconsciously!) to strengthen his/her story about Unidentified Flying Objects. On the other hand it's so unassuming that I think it may be a proper recollection. I lean towards the latter explanation. People don't make up simple stuff to prove something extraordinary. I think he remembered something.

As far as the photographs are concerned: frame 34 an Zolotaryov's "three heads" are really important evidence. The "plane" pictures aren't photographs, imho. I have to write a separate post on that. Cheers!
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. You've got signs of vomiting, bleeding head orifices, Zina's face, burnt trees all suggesting chemical exposure and evidence of some "orange agent", impact wounds suggesting lightweight sharp objects, third degree burns from a modest campfire. Photos across several cameras of intense illumination at night.

Whether the missile theory is true or not i don't know but it is a plausible theory that fits the evidence.....
 

May 28, 2020, 04:35:33 AM
Reply #39
Offline

alecsandros


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
 

May 28, 2020, 05:19:49 AM
Reply #40
Offline

sparrow


Greetings again everyone.  On May 27, Marley mentioned the photos of what was supposed to be a plane.  The  objects you see are supposedly blank photos that were blown up 1000 times in order to get an image.  If you had to blow something up 1000 times to see it in a photo, then you wouldn't be able to see it with the naked eye in order to photograph it ( I would assume).
 

May 28, 2020, 06:02:05 AM
Reply #41
Offline

Nigel Evans


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
Try arguing for - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (from 1957)

WAB could have pointed that out to you but didn't. kewl1
The S75 upper stage using nitric acid as a hypergolic fuel component of course  kewl1
 

May 28, 2020, 06:10:36 AM
Reply #42
Offline

alecsandros


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "
Try arguing for - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (from 1957)

WAB could have pointed that out to you but didn't. kewl1
The S75 upper stage using nitric acid as a hypergolic fuel component of course  kewl1
I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
 

May 28, 2020, 08:13:26 AM
Reply #43
Offline

Nigel Evans



I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
Ok apologies. The R7 used LOX, so no good. But the testing of of V400/V1000 series with an R12 would be an excellent fit for the theory. Thanks.
 

May 28, 2020, 08:36:01 AM
Reply #44
Offline

alecsandros



I suspect more about the ballistic (such as the R-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka and R-12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-12_Dvina#The_beginning) and anti-ballistic (such as V-1000 https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/v-1000.htm ) soviet systems... Their range was in the thousands of kilometres, and the explosive warhead was massive.
Ok apologies. The R7 used LOX, so no good. But the testing of of V400/V1000 series with an R12 would be an excellent fit for the theory. Thanks.
No appologies necessary - I wrote above about the S-200 (C-200) because it was mentioned in Lyubidina brother's interview...
 

May 28, 2020, 09:46:49 AM
Reply #45
Offline

alecsandros



Well, evidence means there is an obvious, or at least a plausible connection between the thing you are trying to prove (i.e. missile) and the pieces of evidence (i.e. orange stuff). AFAIK there is no known relationship between orange stuff on snow, faces and sweaters and missiles in the sky. There is no reason to attribute the burns on kids dying from hypothermia to missiles when there is this obvious source, the fire they were trying to start/keep going, for their burns. The same goes for the other injuries you mention. It really doesn't point to there being a missile.

I'm not sure about Ivanov's burnt treetops. On the one hand it is the kind of thing someone would make up (even subconsciously!) to strengthen his/her story about Unidentified Flying Objects. On the other hand it's so unassuming that I think it may be a proper recollection. I lean towards the latter explanation. People don't make up simple stuff to prove something extraordinary. I think he remembered something.

As far as the photographs are concerned: frame 34 an Zolotaryov's "three heads" are really important evidence. The "plane" pictures aren't photographs, imho. I have to write a separate post on that. Cheers!
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. You've got signs of vomiting, bleeding head orifices, Zina's face, burnt trees all suggesting chemical exposure and evidence of some "orange agent", impact wounds suggesting lightweight sharp objects, third degree burns from a modest campfire. Photos across several cameras of intense illumination at night.

Whether the missile theory is true or not i don't know but it is a plausible theory that fits the evidence.....
It will probably appear under this category: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Soviet_coverups , some time in the future.
 

May 28, 2020, 09:57:03 AM
Reply #46
Offline

Nigel Evans


So we now we seem to have a very credible narrative - "The V-1000 was the first Soviet anti-ballistic missile system, developed in 1956. It intercepted and destroyed an intermediate range ballistic missile warhead coming in at 3km/s on May 4 1961. The US did not demonstrate an equivalent missile until 1984. It was launched 37 times and failed only 5 time with a success rate of 85%."
All we need is a top secret test in 1959.
And then from the same link - " US intelligence community reported 31 October 1962 that "We know that the Soviets have for more than five years been conducting a high priority and extensive program to develop defenses against ballistic missiles. At Sary Shagan, west of Lake Balkhash, they have created a heavily­ instrumental R&D center extending over some 8,500 square miles, with housing accommodations for at least 40,000 personnel. Since 1957 more than 200 missiles, of various ranges up to 1,050 n.m., have been launched into this center, thus providing much data on re-entry characteristics. It is almost certain that during the past two years [ed: ie, since 1960] attempts have been made to intercept incoming missiles by defensive missiles launched from Sary Shagan."
3km/s is mach 8.8! I'm regularly struck with how impressive Soviet missile technology was in this era, the Burya - an intercontinental cruise missile that steered by the stars, now the V-1000 successfully intercepting targets traveling at mach9!
 

May 28, 2020, 12:46:23 PM
Reply #47
Offline

alecsandros



3km/s is mach 8.8! I'm regularly struck with how impressive Soviet missile technology was in this era, the Burya - an intercontinental cruise missile that steered by the stars, now the V-1000 successfully intercepting targets traveling at mach9!
Formidable rockets for their time...
 

May 28, 2020, 01:24:53 PM
Reply #48
Offline

Nigel Evans


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile#Soviet_Union
The first successful test interception was carried out on 24 November 1960, and the first with a live warhead on 4 March 1961. In this test, a dummy warhead was released by a R-12 ballistic missile launched from the Kapustin Yar,[76] and intercepted by a V-1000 launched from  Sary-Shagan. The dummy warhead was destroyed by the impact of 16,000 tungsten-carbide spherical impactors 140 seconds after launch, at an altitude of 25 km (82,000 ft).[77]
The altitude indicates the possibilty that a local cleanup operation would not be necessary. Just some fuel and "chaff" reaching the ground at the DPI.
 

May 28, 2020, 05:24:31 PM
Reply #49
Offline

WAB


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
..................................
.
Dear WAB, as you know, there are many positions into which surface-to-ground rockets can be positioned. Tipically they are placed near important military or civilian installations or cities, or in/near testing grounds. Not all those positions are known , as some of them being in secret locations/emplacements.


Dear alecsandros !
You in vain think that such positions can be hidden, as needle in haystack. All places of positions which were in 50, 60 and 70th years for long time already are known. If they are not known to you it does not mean that who that another did not investigate this question before you on it answer.
I do not understand, how can be confidential place if it is «near to important military either civil objects or cities, or in / about proving grounds» (c). Even if it is object far in a taiga at modern level of investigation (including space) about it quickly learn. Therefore also there were different systems of masking on that place where they can be well visible, but they cannot be traced precisely because constantly движутся and them it is a lot of point. These are so-called «mobile complexes» or containers on railway platforms or the ships which are disguised under usual civil objects.

It is detail nozzle terminations from УР-100 (UR-100) which fragments have found then and bit later even is closer to pass. It too later type of the rocket. Therefore we again rests against time machine
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
But how and why did that debris end up there ? Why were such debris found in that place ?

As Sherlock Holmes spoke: «It is elementary, Watson! :) »: from the locations rocket armies to the west of this area there were educational start-up to range Kamchatka peninsula (it is located far in the east). For certain one of them was unsuccessful then these fragments have appeared there where they have appeared.
If I that that understand that in rockets ballistics (having scientific degree equal PhD :) ) these are start-up from this disctrict (about Perm city or the Tatishchevo city -near Saratov city). These places are known for long time also some of them any more are not workers.
By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
 

May 28, 2020, 05:33:42 PM
Reply #50
Offline

WAB


Them is so much, how many it can be demanded.
1. С-200 (S-200) have started develop only in 1964, have taken advantage in 1967. Therefore the time machine for participation in incident Dyatlov pass is again necessary.
What about this one: https://dyatlovpass.com/rocket "[...]and the statement of the Head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, Ermash, made to the sister of the deceased, Kolevatova, that the remaining 4 people, not found yet, couldn’t have lived after the death of their comrades more than 2 hours, makes us think that the violent, sudden escape from the tent was caused by a rocket shell and radiation near the mountain 1079, that forced them to escape from it further and, it is believed, affected vital activity of people, in particular, the vision. The light of the rocket shells was seen in Serov on February 2 at about 7 am ... it surprises me why the hiking routes from Ivdel were not closed ... If the rocket deviated and did not reach the planned test site, in my opinion, the agency that launched the rocket, must send to the site of the fall and conduct aerial investigation to find out what is the aftermath of the accident. ... If aerial investigation took place we can assumed that the remaining four people were picked up "

It is continuation of that I already spoke in the previous messages:
«I am always be sceptical about interview to relatives of victims, if they not experts in that area about what they speak.» (c) https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=644.msg9241#msg9241 Reply #34

If you want concrete answer at first precisely answer such questions which already will give at once you answers about which I already mentioned:
1.Who from those who speaks was the expert in about what speaks (as particular in the rocket technics)? The help: Filip Ermash - the party functionary with higher education in the field history teaching in school from the general university of the Sverdlovsk city, Rimma Kolevatova - the teacher-philologist, with similar formation of pedagogical university.
By the way, Ermash never was «head Sverdlovsk “obcom” (Regional Committee) Communist party of Soviet Union» (c). It was then Andrey Kirilenko, and Ermash was head one from many  departments in it “obcom” (Regional Committee). Then it was the head cinema department by the USSR Ministry of culture.
2. Who also what is exact выдел on February, 02nd in the city of Ivdel? About it there is what that documents or authentic certificates? Then specify: where also what? I have not found them for last 15 years when searched for this information on different sources. There were only conversations round this theme and was nothing more.
3. About 7 o'clock in morning Vladislav Karelin's group on Ural ridge observed such picture on February, 17th during the travel. https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-290-292?rbid=17743 . Too this phenomenon observed in the Nizhniy Тagil city (and in Ivdel city) about what there are records in criminal case - note meteorologist N. Tokareva (sheet 227 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-227?rbid=17743>) and as a note in the newspaper «Tagilsky Rabochy (Worker)» (sheet 344 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-344?rbid=17743>), and also indications of witnesses (soldiers from the Ivdel city) Savkin, Malik, Novikov and Anisimov (sheets from 264 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-264?rbid=17743> to 267 <https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-267?rbid=17743>), but all it concerns supervision on February, 17th 1959 "Fiery Spheres» that to within minutes coincides with start R-7 rocket from range "Baikanur". Too most is on March, 31st 1959. But any certificates (except different conversations which prove to be true nothing!) About February, 02nd is not present. Such coincidence, to within minutes does not happen that it would be the different phenomena. As well as there can not be from anything «Light of rocket shells has been noticed in Serov city on February, 2nd about 7 o'clock in the morning» (c) for people very far that they know and as «rocket shells» are shone (c). They could mix dates if it told that observed on February, 17th, but give out wished for valid it is not meaningful for investigation.
Round this event there were many different conversations «about rockets» because then it there was very fashionable theme, as now about UFO and about "Yeti" (about Menk or about Snow man). But conversations are virtual, and the validity is concrete and has weight of acknowledgement that never have simply virtual conversations.
Other of this citation does not concern to that we now discuss.
 

May 28, 2020, 05:38:44 PM
Reply #51
Offline

WAB



......................................................
Try arguing for - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (from 1957)

WAB could have pointed that out to you but didn't. kewl1

It is one more deadlock branch of conversation. It is possible spend lot time and again come to deadlock. Therefore I do not hasten do it. Also I do not aspire to it.

The S75 upper stage using nitric acid as a hypergolic fuel component of course  kewl1

This rockets on pass (their radius of action is equal 30 … 40 km or 20…25 mi), certainly protected dens of bears from attack of malicious UFOS for there more than anything to protect was not. :), certainly, more all disturbed to bears as is HNO3. :)
 

May 29, 2020, 02:07:41 AM
Reply #52
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alecsandros


I do not understand, how can be confidential place if it is «near to important military either civil objects or cities, or in / about proving grounds» (c). Even if it is object far in a taiga at modern level of investigation (including space) about it quickly learn. Therefore also there were different systems of masking on that place where they can be well visible, but they cannot be traced precisely because constantly движутся and them it is a lot of point. These are so-called «mobile complexes» or containers on railway platforms or the ships which are disguised under usual civil objects.
When I was on the forum Kbismarck.com, I learnt that in the UK archives there are files that are sealed and secretised for 75 years. Others are secretised for 100 years. So, when it comes to national states, the secrecy can be maintained for a very long time.

Quote
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
As Sherlock Holmes spoke: «It is elementary, Watson! :) »: from the locations rocket armies to the west of this area there were educational start-up to range Kamchatka peninsula (it is located far in the east). For certain one of them was unsuccessful then these fragments have appeared there where they have appeared.
If I that that understand that in rockets ballistics (having scientific degree equal PhD :) ) these are start-up from this disctrict (about Perm city or the Tatishchevo city -near Saratov city). These places are known for long time also some of them any more are not workers.
By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
There is the problem - that UR-100 rocket shouldn't have been there.
The fact that it was there , sometimes in the 60s or 70s, indicates that the trials of ICBMs produced debris in the area of Dyatovlav Pass.
If more extensive searches are done, maybe other debris will be found.
 

May 29, 2020, 02:19:15 AM
Reply #53
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alecsandros


By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
R-7 and R-12 were also existent at the time of Fev 1959. They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.
 

May 29, 2020, 05:17:42 AM
Reply #54
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Nigel Evans



This rockets on pass (their radius of action is equal 30 … 40 km or 20…25 mi), certainly protected dens of bears from attack of malicious UFOS for there more than anything to protect was not. :), certainly, more all disturbed to bears as is HNO3. :)
Good that the bears could sleep peacefully. lol4
 

May 29, 2020, 12:26:55 PM
Reply #55
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WAB



............................................
When I was on the forum Kbismarck.com, I learnt that in the UK archives there are files that are sealed and secretised for 75 years. Others are secretised for 100 years. So, when it comes to national states, the secrecy can be maintained for a very long time.

There is an information in archives which never probably will open. Only what relation it has about discussed theme?
Here you are capable formulate the real reason on which it «is so much years all is confidential»?
Even it is more confidential, than the information, say it so, about murder J.F.Kennedy.
I understand it so that, there is no information only because hid nothing, because there was nothing hide. But if you are not capable explain that occurred the usual and logical reasons it not occasion, what accuse whom that they hide that.

Quote
Ok, it's the UR-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UR-100).
As Sherlock Holmes spoke: «It is elementary, Watson! :) »: from the locations rocket armies to the west
.......................................................
By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
There is the problem - that UR-100 rocket shouldn't have been there.

Who has solved it?
It is actually, but these are later events, therefore it does not need to be considered as the events connected by Dyatlov incident. If not o separate that is required from following stratifications all will constantly go on circle. As occurs those who does not reflect that is necessary, and that there is extraneous. The information on the validity of those events and so it is too littered by constant information noise. Especially journalists here are zealous. Very few people has desire understand that was, and that there are extraneous stratifications.

The fact that it was there , sometimes in the 60s or 70s, indicates that the trials of ICBMs produced debris in the area of Dyatovlav Pass.

It is not necessary to confuse wished with the valid. Any "tests" for this place was not. There was an unsuccessful educational start-up from places of usual rocket regiments. Fragments have appeared on this place. If failure has occurred a bit later (or earlier) that fragments would be in other place. But and here relationship to events Dyatlov group?

If more extensive searches are done, maybe other debris will be found.

Well. At us it is accepted speak: «Any initiative should be punished - who has offered, should do it!» Go there and search! Only it is necessary separate that was in events about which we discuss and that was not. For example, that was already after. If it not to do, it will be vain work.
I think that the further conversation should be continued only after you discovered rockets fragments about period of 1969 and earlier.
 

May 29, 2020, 12:30:49 PM
Reply #56
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WAB


By the way, we have again distracted from the main theme towards "time machine". For us to the cores and the main thing is 1959 when the basic and main rocket which was on arms, is Р-5м (R-5m). All the rest was already after that, and does not concern to that we discuss.
R-7 and R-12 were also existent at the time of Fev 1959.

What means "existed"? They were, but any start Р-12 for all time of search and Р-7 till February, 17th 1959 was not. To disguise it as it is difficult how to cover an elephant with a baseball cap. It is possible, if either an elephant small, or a cap big … :)
But it will be already called fraud  :)
Generally speaking, conversation when on the one hand result simply gossips or inventions, and with another - the real information already starts to bother me.
Let's or operate confirmed and trustworthy information, or I stop this conversation.

They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.

1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
 

May 29, 2020, 12:31:53 PM
Reply #57
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WAB



This rockets on pass (their radius of action is equal 30 … 40 km or 20…25 mi), certainly protected dens of bears from attack of malicious UFOS for there more than anything to protect was not. :), certainly, more all disturbed to bears as is HNO3. :)
Good that the bears could sleep peacefully. lol4

Undoubtedly!
When I there will be once again, I will tell to them that you too are happy with it and worried for them … :)
 

May 29, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
Reply #58
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alecsandros


What means "existed"? They were, but any start Р-12 for all time of search and Р-7 till February, 17th 1959 was not. To disguise it as it is difficult how to cover an elephant with a baseball cap. It is possible, if either an elephant small, or a cap big … :)
To exist (verb) = have objective reality or being.

They were undergoing test launches from Kapustin Yar.
Quote
1. Tests Р-12 (R-12) have been FINISHED in December 1958. I hope word "ARE finished" to you clearly? And any actions before acceptance on arms AND manufacturing of new rockets did not undertake. As well as you, cannot buy anything, yet have not got wages. To you it too anybody «is simple so» and will not pay in advance?
2. Tests and rocket P-7 (R-7) operational development passed on range Tura-Tam (or Baikonur - as now it name), but from January, 02nd till February, 17th 1959 any starts were not, because on range there was no suitable rocket. Therefore there was nothing to start. That start trajectories therefrom go in general to other party is an additional minus in your ideas.
Previously you wrote that rocket tests only existed in controlled environments - target ranges, equipped with the necessary apparatus to evaluate the parameters of the launch.

However, parts from at least one UR-100 were found in Dyatovlav Pass.

That contradicts what you wrote , and is testament to the fact that ICBM's were not as strictly controlled in USSR as some would like to believe.
 

May 29, 2020, 12:56:17 PM
Reply #59
Offline

alecsandros


There is an information in archives which never probably will open. Only what relation it has about discussed theme?
Here you are capable formulate the real reason on which it «is so much years all is confidential»?
Even it is more confidential, than the information, say it so, about murder J.F.Kennedy.
I understand it so that, there is no information only because hid nothing, because there was nothing hide. But if you are not capable explain that occurred the usual and logical reasons it not occasion, what accuse whom that they hide that.
The secrecy of certain documents is imposed by the branch that is archiving the document. It's simple.
IF it is a high-level cover-up, THEN it requires to remain SECRET.
And there is a Government Agency which is mandated, amongst others, to maintain the files in question, and to approve (or not) their viewing by authorised personell only.

Who has solved it?
What do you mean, in English ?
It is not necessary to confuse wished with the valid. Any "tests" for this place was not. There was an unsuccessful educational start-up from places of usual rocket regiments. Fragments have appeared on this place. If failure has occurred a bit later (or earlier) that fragments would be in other place. But and here relationship to events Dyatlov group?
"Educational start-up" ?
Exactly how did those remains end up on the Dyatlov Pass ?

Quote

Well. At us it is accepted speak: «Any initiative should be punished - who has offered, should do it!» Go there and search! Only it is necessary separate that was in events about which we discuss and that was not. For example, that was already after. If it not to do, it will be vain work.
I think that the further conversation should be continued only after you discovered rockets fragments about period of 1969 and earlier.
No, that is not my responsibility. Because I do not parade pretending to know the absolute truth...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 01:22:25 PM by alecsandros »