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Author Topic: The military knew about Dyatlov deaths since Fev 6th  (Read 11543 times)

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June 06, 2020, 01:07:34 PM
Reply #90
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alecsandros


It was build in 90s, for same reason as the American Cheyenne Mountain Complex or other commando center. What do you want proof by infos like that? And again, the fact that it is under-construction was well know.
It was written about it in the 90s. There is a big difference between being built and being written about it.
Point in hand: what objective do you see nearby ?
Point in hand: underground nuclear bunkers/command centers are not (necessarily) built near large cities.

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I mean that shock wave is coming after seeing the blast. After received shock wave nobody will worry about chemical/nuclear fallout, they will simply pick up stuff from the tent.
If quick death is what they want, they should stay in the tent. If they want to live just a bit longer - run !
Otherwise, they will look like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Nach_Gasangriff_1917.jpg

 

June 06, 2020, 01:31:20 PM
Reply #91
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PJ


It was written about it in the 90s. There is a big difference between being built and being written about it.
Point in hand: what objective do you see nearby ?
Point in hand: underground nuclear bunkers/command centers are not (necessarily) built near large cities.
They write about it in 90s because nothing happens there before, as well Russia confirmed that they finished the development in 1997.
But what bunkers/command centers have in connection to the rockets theory? There is not SAMs systems at all, they are build deep underground so are protected by ground.

If quick death is what they want, they should stay in the tent. If they want to live just a bit longer - run !
Otherwise, they will look like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Nach_Gasangriff_1917.jpg
But they can't see any chemical/radioactive danger so simply will be not afraid of it. Sure, we could start making theories what they imagined but that will lead us into very interesting places  lol4
As well, it is very very unlikely that there was any missile with live warhead(chemical/radioactive), tests like that always were done in very controlled palaces.
 

June 06, 2020, 01:39:07 PM
Reply #92
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alecsandros


They write about it in 90s because nothing happens there before, as well Russia confirmed that they finished the development in 1997.
That is what was printed in the press. I strongly doubt such complexes were started in the 90s.
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But what bunkers/command centers have in connection to the rockets theory? There is not SAMs systems at all, they are build deep underground so are protected by ground.
Tipically there are troops nearby (or above), with adequate anti-air protection. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Yamantau "During the Soviet era two military garrisons, Beloretsk-15 and Beloretsk-16, and possibly a third, Alkino-2, were built on the site. These garrisons were unified into the closed town of Mezhgorye (Russian: Межгорье) in 1995, and the garrisons are said to house 30,000 workers each, served by large rail lines"

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But they can't see any chemical/radioactive danger so simply will be not afraid of it. Sure, we could start making theories what they imagined but that will lead us into very interesting places  lol4
If they see nuclear mushroom above head, the only solution is - run !
If they see gas cloud coming down on them, only solution is - run !

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As well, it is very very unlikely that there was any missile with live warhead(chemical/radioactive), tests like that always were done in very controlled palaces.
You know what they say - "everything is ok until it isn't".
This entire strangeness about DPI is explainable, IMHO, by a terrible accident - and that accident may be related to an unfortunate experiment in weapons.
 

June 06, 2020, 01:55:58 PM
Reply #93
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PJ


Tipically there are troops nearby (or above), with adequate anti-air protection. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Yamantau "During the Soviet era two military garrisons, Beloretsk-15 and Beloretsk-16, and possibly a third, Alkino-2, were built on the site. These garrisons were unified into the closed town of Mezhgorye (Russian: Межгорье) in 1995, and the garrisons are said to house 30,000 workers each, served by large rail lines"
This is why US will know about it if there will be something earlier. All installations like that are well visible, you can't build it in secret.
Even if Kosvinsky Kamen exist in late 50s, the SAMs missiles will never reach Dyatlov Pass

If they see nuclear mushroom above head, the only solution is - run !
Sorry, too late to run  grin1
If they see gas cloud coming down on them, only solution is - run !
You can't see gas cloud coming down, specially at night. As well any gas cloud will dispersed within 5mins in place like that: open space with wind.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 02:08:29 PM by PJ »
 

June 06, 2020, 03:13:03 PM
Reply #94
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Nigel Evans


It matters because it extends the range of the fallout which refutes your argument that SAMs were too far away?
Yes, it could extend but not enough in this case. The closest place where was base with SAMs rockets was Sverdlovsk (today's Yekaterinburg) which is about 550km from Dyatlov Pass, how do you want extend the range of V-1000 or S-75 Dvina by 500km?? This rockets have max range of 55km.
Yes so with a glide path of 1:10 that would fit.  That's my point.
 

June 07, 2020, 02:36:12 AM
Reply #95
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alecsandros


This is why US will know about it if there will be something earlier. All installations like that are well visible, you can't build it in secret.
In the 50s there weren't any spy satellites in the sky, therefore the construction would have been unknown.

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Even if Kosvinsky Kamen exist in late 50s, the SAMs missiles will never reach Dyatlov Pass
Yes, but what if there is/was another underground complex more closer to Dyatlov Pass, that could potentially target the area.

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Sorry, too late to run  grin1
Running from an airburst would still be viable, provided that some of them were still alive afterwards.
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You can't see gas cloud coming down, specially at night. As well any gas cloud will dispersed within 5mins in place like that: open space with wind.
It would depend on the type of gas. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-F0313-0208-007,_Gaskrieg_(Luftbild).jpg
This is visible. They would NOT have 5 minutes to stick around, unless they wanted to be found dead in the tent, gassed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:WWI_-_Monte_San_Michele_-_29th_June_1916_Italian_casualties_after_a_gas_attack.jpg
 

June 07, 2020, 07:08:42 AM
Reply #96
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PJ


In the 50s there weren't any spy satellites in the sky, therefore the construction would have been unknown.

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Even if Kosvinsky Kamen exist in late 50s, the SAMs missiles will never reach Dyatlov Pass
Yes, but what if there is/was another underground complex more closer to Dyatlov Pass, that could potentially target the area.

No satellites but U.S. had U-2 spy aircraft that was flying over Soviet Union. It finished in 1960 when Soviet Union finally developed a SAMs rocket S-75 that was able to reach the aircraft at high altitude. And each countries had spies that know more or less what is going on and building any underground complex was big job, easy to spot. So for sure there was nothing around.

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Running from an airburst would still be viable, provided that some of them were still alive afterwards.
But the airburst will catch them withing seconds/minutes so all will be close to tent. So why not return for some gear that will save your life?

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It would depend on the type of gas. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-F0313-0208-007,_Gaskrieg_(Luftbild).jpg
This is visible. They would NOT have 5 minutes to stick around, unless they wanted to be found dead in the tent, gassed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I#/media/File:WWI_-_Monte_San_Michele_-_29th_June_1916_Italian_casualties_after_a_gas_attack.jpg
It looks like smoke, you can't say it is gas or smoke after explosion, specially at night.
And again, as it is somehow possible that some rocket go off course and fall down there, it is generally almost not possible that it was fitted with some live warhead. Tests with live warheads are very rear.
 

June 07, 2020, 07:23:16 AM
Reply #97
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alecsandros


No satellites but U.S. had U-2 spy aircraft that was flying over Soviet Union. It finished in 1960 when Soviet Union finally developed a SAMs rocket S-75 that was able to reach the aircraft at high altitude. And each countries had spies that know more or less what is going on and building any underground complex was big job, easy to spot. So for sure there was nothing around.
There is nothing "sure" about it. During WW2, the Allies had massive aerial reconnaissance and spy rings above and inside occupied Europe, but underground factories and tunnels were routinely built, most of them remaining hidden and unknown for the Allies.

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But the airburst will catch them withing seconds/minutes so all will be close to tent. So why not return for some gear that will save your life?
Because exposure underneath the airburst could provoke death in seconds. Therefore they would do whatever possible to move away from the epicentre (or epicentre's projection onto the earth).

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It looks like smoke, you can't say it is gas or smoke after explosion, specially at night.
Smoke isn't falling down on the ground , but dissipates onto the air. Chemical gas is heavier then air and falls down.
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And again, as it is somehow possible that some rocket go off course and fall down there, it is generally almost not possible that it was fitted with some live warhead. Tests with live warheads are very rear.
The Dyatlov Pass Incident is very rare as well. Perhaps they were the most unlucky skiers ever ?
 

June 07, 2020, 08:11:55 AM
Reply #98
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PJ


There is nothing "sure" about it. During WW2, the Allies had massive aerial reconnaissance and spy rings above and inside occupied Europe, but underground factories and tunnels were routinely built, most of them remaining hidden and unknown for the Allies.
Any example?
The most secret and biggest underground project of Nazi Germans "Project Riese" was known to Allies.. I mean, they know that something is under-construction there, the fact that we not know till today what exactly should be there is other story.


Because exposure underneath the airburst could provoke death in seconds. Therefore they would do whatever possible to move away from the epicentre (or epicentre's projection onto the earth).
So explain me what is the reason of running away after being hit by airburst? They will be hit by it very close to the tent, why will they keep going as far as to the forest. After explosion withing seconds will hit them with airburst, after all will be quiet. They could return to the tent.

Smoke isn't falling down on the ground , but dissipates onto the air. Chemical gas is heavier then air and falls down.
It was open space and windy, anything will dissipates onto the air, including chemical gas.


The Dyatlov Pass Incident is very rare as well. Perhaps they were the most unlucky skiers ever ?
well... same unlucky skiers as any other that die in mountains
 

June 07, 2020, 08:27:51 AM
Reply #99
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alecsandros


Any example?
The most secret and biggest underground project of Nazi Germans "Project Riese" was known to Allies.. I mean, they know that something is under-construction there, the fact that we not know till today what exactly should be there is other story.
The Kobanya cellar system wasn't discovered by the occupying Russians FWIR. Another might be Weingut. There were many other underground factories that remained hidden (and many that are still hidden today).


So explain me what is the reason of running away after being hit by airburst? They will be hit by it very close to the tent, why will they keep going as far as to the forest. After explosion withing seconds will hit them with airburst, after all will be quiet. They could return to the tent.
Sequence of bomb damage is: airburst, heat wave, fallout. Airburst travels at speed of sound, heat wave somewhat slower, fallout depends on the load. In any case, the fallout would begin in maybe 30 seconds - 1 minute after the airburst (considering an airburst at 1km above ground).

It was open space and windy, anything will dissipates onto the air, including chemical gas.
If only that was true. But tens of thousands of troops died or were severely injured by chemical gas in the First World War, always in windy conditions and many times in open space (not trenches).


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well... same unlucky skiers as any other that die in mountains
Mmm, not many die from broken ribs penetrating their hearts...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 08:49:20 AM by alecsandros »
 

June 07, 2020, 08:30:08 AM
Reply #100
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Nigel Evans


It matters because it extends the range of the fallout which refutes your argument that SAMs were too far away?
Yes, it could extend but not enough in this case. The closest place where was base with SAMs rockets was Sverdlovsk (today's Yekaterinburg) which is about 550km from Dyatlov Pass, how do you want extend the range of V-1000 or S-75 Dvina by 500km?? This rockets have max range of 55km.
BTW, the V1000 had a range of 250km, altitude of 25km.

 

June 07, 2020, 09:39:10 AM
Reply #101
Offline

PJ


yes, Nigel, you are right. But it still not make it possible that it reach the pass.

The Kobanya cellar system wasn't discovered by the occupying Russians FWIR. Another might be Weingut. There were many other underground factories that remained hidden (and many that are still hidden today).
Kobanya cellar was constructed in XII century, nobody was building it during the war time, just place factory inside. There was lots of military factories everywhere during the war time.
Building any underground facility for SAMs at the late 50s, even reconstructing existing one will require enormous amount of work that will be noticed.

Sequence of bomb damage is: airburst, heat wave, fallout. Airburst travels at speed of sound, heat wave somewhat slower, fallout depends on the load. In any case, the fallout would begin in maybe 30 seconds - 1 minute after the airburst (considering an airburst at 1km above ground).
So how far they could run from tent during 1 minute(including exiting the tent)?

Alecsandros, If you want make any theory reliable you must accept existing facts, if you start creating many different theories to support your theory it will become very very unlikely to happens.
The fact is that Dyatlov Pass could be reached in that times only by ballistic missile, no need to imagine some secret underground bases in Ural Mountains.
Another fact is that explosion of live warhead will very unlikely force them to run as far as to the forest (to get to the forest they need minimum 30mins)
So there is definitely something missing in the rocket theory.

I have some theory that this tragedy was started by incident with missile and military involvement but just need a bit of time to make full research about it  wink1
 

June 07, 2020, 09:52:56 AM
Reply #102
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alecsandros


Kobanya cellar was constructed in XII century, nobody was building it during the war time, just place factory inside. There was lots of military factories everywhere during the war time.
Agreed - and many of them were not known.
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Building any underground facility for SAMs at the late 50s, even reconstructing existing one will require enormous amount of work that will be noticed.
Nobody would have noticed anything in the Northern Urals, hundreds of kilometres from cities.
Besides, underground nuclear command centers started being built in the USSR in 1951 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagansky_Protected_Command_Point), while the first U-2 spy plane overflew a minor part of Russia in June 1956 for the first time (https://theaviationist.com/2014/02/27/the-story-of-the-first-u-2-spyplane-missions-over-soviet-union/).

So how far they could run from tent during 1 minute(including exiting the tent)?
Maybe 150-200 meters away if all ran in terror. Maybe 50-100meters away if they had to carry "Zolotaryov", Lyubidina and Thibeaux-Brignolles. Not enough to escape being contaminated, but it sure is better then being in ground zero.
I strongly suggest you reading the "meteor" theory here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=417.msg9025#msg9025 . It details the possible airburst, and the shockwave damage.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 09:58:21 AM by alecsandros »
 

June 07, 2020, 10:05:48 AM
Reply #103
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alecsandros



Another fact is that explosion of live warhead will very unlikely force them to run as far as to the forest (to get to the forest they need minimum 30mins)
So there is definitely something missing in the rocket theory.


That is how chemical weapons work: delivery, explosion, emanation of chemical compound (usually gas). The gas is pushed by the wind , emanating from the initial point. As far as gas was still being around, nobody could stay nearby. After the gas cleared, they could attempt a comeback (which apparently happened).

Simply writing about being gased is another thing from BEING gassed. You can't comprehend the terror of a gas attack.
 

June 07, 2020, 10:10:42 AM
Reply #104
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PJ


Nobody would have noticed anything in the Northern Urals, hundreds of kilometres from cities.
Besides, underground nuclear command centers started being built in the USSR in 1951 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagansky_Protected_Command_Point), while the first U-2 spy plane overflew a minor part of Russia in June 1956 for the first time (https://theaviationist.com/2014/02/27/the-story-of-the-first-u-2-spyplane-missions-over-soviet-union/).
Constructions sites like that usually are not spotted by seeing it directly. We get know about it because all of the activity needed to build it. Work force(few thousand people to build it - minimum), heavy machinery, supply of materials, trains, railways etc.. all of this indicate that something is going on. Same as army movements was always spotted.

Maybe 150-200 meters away if all ran in terror. Maybe 50-100meters away if they had to carry "Zolotaryov", Lyubidina and Thibeaux-Brignolles. Not enough to escape being contaminated, but it sure is better then being in ground zero.
So there are 200m from tent, already hit by explosion. Why to continue to run to the forest that is still 1km from you? They not know nothing about contamination. They could suspect it but it not pose real danger to them in that moment. Real is cold. I will get back to the for the essential equipment to survive.

That is how chemical weapons work: delivery, explosion, emanation of chemical compound (usually gas). The gas is pushed by the wind , emanating from the initial point. As far as gas was still being around, nobody could stay nearby. After the gas cleared, they could attempt a comeback (which apparently happened).
It was windy day/night, open space, the gas will disperse withing minutes.
 

June 07, 2020, 10:11:22 AM
Reply #105
Offline

alecsandros


I have some theory that this tragedy was started by incident with missile and military involvement but just need a bit of time to make full research about it  wink1
Looking forward to reading it ! thumb1
 

June 07, 2020, 10:16:16 AM
Reply #106
Offline

alecsandros


Same as army movements was always spotted.
Depends where. In Northern Urals there was little chance of anybody noticing them.

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So there are 200m from tent, already hit by explosion. Why to continue to run to the forest that is still 1km from you? They not know nothing about contamination. They could suspect it but it not pose real danger to them in that moment. Real is cold. I will get back to the for the essential equipment to survive.
They run 200m for fear of gas/nuke. They run because they know what's coming. Both gas and nuke are visible.

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It was windy day/night, open space, the gas will disperse withing minutes.
Gas needs wind to work.
Many tens of thousands of troops were gassed in windy days in open spaces.
Nobody knows how much the gas will last - maybe the wind will change direction and it will all go away. Or maybe the wind will blow it towards them, who knows. What is known is that the area of the tent is gassed and gas=immediate death, while cold=some chance of survival (slim but existing).
 

June 07, 2020, 10:36:14 AM
Reply #107
Offline

PJ


Alecsandros, we talk again and again about the same so it not make any sense to continue.

I believe that it is possible that some missile exploded around that place.
But it is not enough to force them to run away as far as to the forest without proper equipment.
 

June 07, 2020, 10:45:41 AM
Reply #108
Offline

alecsandros


Alecsandros, we talk again and again about the same so it not make any sense to continue.

I believe that it is possible that some missile exploded around that place.
But it is not enough to force them to run away as far as to the forest without proper equipment.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
For me, this is one good possibility of explaining DPI: chemical weapon release, followed by panic, terror and abandonment of the tent for awhile.

Regards,