November 28, 2021, 10:31:03 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Location, Location, Location ...  (Read 1327 times)

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April 12, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
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Horsebite


Hello,

This is my first post to this forum.  I have been lurking for a bit now, while I read up on the DPI and search back through the archive of posts and information on the site.  I have so many questions in my head and so many theories, as do many here from what I have read so far.  I live in the far north (65 degrees latitude), so am familiar with many of the animals and environmental conditions met by the Dyatlov group.  My background is in mapping and remote sensing (mostly imaging Earth from space) and that brings me to my first questions on this forum.  They seem simple, but I know that they are not. 

1.  Is there any consensus on the location of the following, the tent, the cedar tree, and location of the bodies?  As a mapping nerd, this is what I'm first drawn to.  I have found a number of posts that make me feel like it is not clear where any of these things were.  Additionally, it seems like there are theories about the final four found bodies, that they might have been NW, SW, or SE of the tree.  That is surprising to me. 

2.  Is there any consensus on the order of death?  I have read the medical examiner reports and some recent reports that discussed order of death.  I know there were four wristwatches found on the bodies.  Do people generally believe that those times might be representative of being around the time of death?  The idea being that the watches froze and stopped shortly after death. 

This seems like a great forum with a wealth of valuable information.  Thank you. 
 

April 12, 2021, 01:04:38 PM
Reply #1
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello,

This is my first post to this forum.  I have been lurking for a bit now, while I read up on the DPI and search back through the archive of posts and information on the site.  I have so many questions in my head and so many theories, as do many here from what I have read so far.  I live in the far north (65 degrees latitude), so am familiar with many of the animals and environmental conditions met by the Dyatlov group.  My background is in mapping and remote sensing (mostly imaging Earth from space) and that brings me to my first questions on this forum.  They seem simple, but I know that they are not. 

1.  Is there any consensus on the location of the following, the tent, the cedar tree, and location of the bodies?  As a mapping nerd, this is what I'm first drawn to.  I have found a number of posts that make me feel like it is not clear where any of these things were.  Additionally, it seems like there are theories about the final four found bodies, that they might have been NW, SW, or SE of the tree.  That is surprising to me. 

2.  Is there any consensus on the order of death?  I have read the medical examiner reports and some recent reports that discussed order of death.  I know there were four wristwatches found on the bodies.  Do people generally believe that those times might be representative of being around the time of death?  The idea being that the watches froze and stopped shortly after death. 

This seems like a great forum with a wealth of valuable information.  Thank you.

Hello and welcome. Consensus  ! ? Well there are plenty of Theories and lots of debating those Theories. But there really isnt any consensus as to what actually happened. There isnt enough Evidence and much Evidence is missing.
DB
 

April 12, 2021, 03:06:17 PM
Reply #2
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WAB


Hello,

This is my first post to this forum.  I have been lurking for a bit now, while I read up on the DPI and search back through the archive of posts and information on the site.  I have so many questions in my head and so many theories, as do many here from what I have read so far.  I live in the far north (65 degrees latitude), so am familiar with many of the animals and environmental conditions met by the Dyatlov group.  My background is in mapping and remote sensing (mostly imaging Earth from space) and that brings me to my first questions on this forum.  They seem simple, but I know that they are not. 

You are in very good position on this forum. A lot of what most of the people here can only guess at in what you see at home and have good practice. Your assessments should be better approximated to reality.

1.  Is there any consensus on the location of the following, the tent, the cedar tree, and location of the bodies?  As a mapping nerd, this is what I'm first drawn to.  I have found a number of posts that make me feel like it is not clear where any of these things were.  Additionally, it seems like there are theories about the final four found bodies, that they might have been NW, SW, or SE of the tree.  That is surprising to me. 

First, I should point out that there can be no unanimous opinion or the same thoughts among people at all. Everyone has his or her own thoughts, so there is always diversity of opinion. And if you want say that many of the same opinions always express the right thoughts, that is not true either. Truth cannot be established by voting, for example. Why don't we all vote at the same time (I'm just saying this as an example) that the sun should rise in the west? It won't change anything. There are objective truths, just as there are laws of nature...
To your questions about technically accurate tent, cedar, and body locations, I can answer in the affirmative. I was engaged in it directly on a place many times, and had all possible information on a site of these objects. Of course it had to be analyzed for reliability, but it is not difficult to do on the spot.

2.  Is there any consensus on the order of death?  I have read the medical examiner reports and some recent reports that discussed order of death.  I know there were four wristwatches found on the bodies.  Do people generally believe that those times might be representative of being around the time of death?  The idea being that the watches froze and stopped shortly after death.

As I wrote in the previous paragraph, there can be no consensus in principle. One must either be aware of what is or raise objections if they are substantial and objective. And even then, there will not be complete agreement among all the people who are discussing it. That's the way life works.
 
This seems like a great forum with a wealth of valuable information.  Thank you.

I agree with you completely, except that there is still lot correct for translation errors and clear understanding of special terms. There may be misunderstandings, but not many, for our happiness. Additionally, you need practice in similar conditions and circumstances. So you have  slight advantage here.
 

April 12, 2021, 07:56:39 PM
Reply #3
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Investigator


The key question is whether the evidence as a whole tells a coherent story (or more than one).  The tent was high on that mountain (regardless of the exact location), something happened that led to them thinking it was going to collapse or get blown apart, they decided to quickly secure it, thinking they could survive the night by lighting a fire down by the trees (and  possibly going to the "den" after warming up), and then in the morning they'd go back and deal with the tent issue.  When I first learned about the DPI, which I think was at least ten years ago, it was portrayed as a great mystery, and similar incidents were not mentioned (nor were things like the many used matched around the fire site, the near certainty that some of the 7 took some of the clothes off the "two  Yuris," who clearly died first, and the many branches that were broken off the trees and lie scattered about).  Since then I've read about similar incidents and learned more about the DPI evidence. leading me to conclude that their plan didn't work because they engaged in too much physical activity and then went near the fire (perhaps sitting on branches), which led to a lot of sweating.  In this condition, once the fire lessens or dies out (assuming that it was good enough to begin with, which doesn't seem to be the case for at least the two Yuris), there's no way to survive under the circumstances.  If the "ravine 4" didn't fall through the snow and onto a rocky creek, perhaps they would have survived huddling together, since two of the four were dressed a lot better and the other two took some clothes from the two Yuris, but the only way to get a sense of this is to do a professional reconstruction.
 

April 13, 2021, 04:36:51 AM
Reply #4
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jsmith


If the "ravine 4" didn't fall through the snow and onto a rocky creek, perhaps they would have survived huddling together, since two of the four were dressed a lot better and the other two took some clothes from the two Yuris, but the only way to get a sense of this is to do a professional reconstruction.

Remember Semyon and Aleksander were cuddling.

The main question I have about the "snow den" is why the Ravine 4 weren't in it? My understanding is they were found away from the den and near a creek in the ravine. What the hell were they doing? Is it possible they originally were in the den and their bodies were pushed or shifted by snow and gradual ravine collapses?
 

April 13, 2021, 10:57:36 AM
Reply #5
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Investigator


jsith, the one "big picture" explanation is that the two who were clothed better dug out the "den," then went back to get those who wanted to join them (assuming not all did).  They found that the "two Yuris" had died, so they and two others took some of the clothing from the deceased, apparently leaving a trail of branches or clothing so the other three could follow later, but they went slightly off track and fell onto the rocky creek.  The fact that two were huddling reinforces the notion that this was the plan (they did the best they could in a terrible situation at that point, hoping the "returning three" would eventually get back to them and help).  The three did not go as a group, but instead Zina likely saw one or both Yuris die and got upset, thinking that a return to the tent was the only option (there is no evidence that the three were cooperating in any way).  Slobodin followed (probably trying to get her to go to the "den" with the others), but fell, struck his head, and was rendered unconscious.  Igor then followed but hypothermia caught up to him before he caught up to Zina.  No other explanation fits the evidence nearly as well as this one, and as I've said, some minor details will likely never be known, which is true of nearly every case where there are so many "moving parts."

As to your question, apparently at least one of the "ravine 4" bodies shifted due to the current of the creek, but the "den" was found intact, without any evidence of movement of a dead body somehow getting to the creek after the person or persons died in the "den."
 

April 13, 2021, 01:24:29 PM
Reply #6
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jsmith


jsith, the one "big picture" explanation is that the two who were clothed better dug out the "den," then went back to get those who wanted to join them (assuming not all did).  They found that the "two Yuris" had died, so they and two others took some of the clothing from the deceased, apparently leaving a trail of branches or clothing so the other three could follow later, but they went slightly off track and fell onto the rocky creek.  The fact that two were huddling reinforces the notion that this was the plan (they did the best they could in a terrible situation at that point, hoping the "returning three" would eventually get back to them and help).  The three did not go as a group, but instead Zina likely saw one or both Yuris die and got upset, thinking that a return to the tent was the only option (there is no evidence that the three were cooperating in any way).  Slobodin followed (probably trying to get her to go to the "den" with the others), but fell, struck his head, and was rendered unconscious.  Igor then followed but hypothermia caught up to him before he caught up to Zina.  No other explanation fits the evidence nearly as well as this one, and as I've said, some minor details will likely never be known, which is true of nearly every case where there are so many "moving parts."

As to your question, apparently at least one of the "ravine 4" bodies shifted due to the current of the creek, but the "den" was found intact, without any evidence of movement of a dead body somehow getting to the creek after the person or persons died in the "den."

This theory works, for the following reasons:

1. The "den" was fairly well made. I don't think it was made by people immobilised by hypothermia. This leads me to believe it was indeed made by Semyon and Tibo, because they were dressed much better than the others and had the ability to make this. Apparently it was fashioned in a very similar way to WW2 Eastern Front foxholes which Semyon would have been well versed with, so that fits. I can imagine them making it and coming and going from the Cedar Tree whilst the two Yuris are slowly dying at the fire. We know that the Ravine 4 were at the Yuri body's because the Yuris clothing is found on some of them (Lyuda i believe...). 

2. The impact injuries of those found in the den aren't a coincidence. The "ravine", in my mind, is directly tied to the injuries.

Based off the fact Lyuda was kneeling, resting on a ledge and she was further away from the three others - is it reasonable to guess that the 3 men in the "den" were actually trying to find or get to her because she was immobilised nearby? They all stagger towards her and fall into the pit. Maybe they fell near or on the exact same spot she did? It really works.

This is a tragic version of events... I really think Semyon and Tibo probably would have survived if they didn't fall. If they cuddled together on the den and never fell... who knows. What an awful shame this whole incident was!

This only question I have is what on earth Zina, Rustem and Igor were doing. Trying to get back to the tent is crazy. Staying in the den was the better option. Did they even know about the snow den? Did they know but have a disagreement? Maybe Igor and Semyon had differing ideas about how to survive? Was it just blind panic and confusion and the decision was illogical due to hypothermia? Did Zina see dead friends and take off to the tent and the two others followed? Why did Rustem have a head injury? Is it possible Rustem fell and died there before the group even got to the tree line? As far as I'm aware he isn't wearing any Yuri clothing so we can't conclusively say he out lived the Yuris like we can say about Igor (who was wearing Yuri clothing). Did all 3 travel together, and didn't have the strength to do anything when individuals began to fall and give up?

I guess we will never know...
 

April 13, 2021, 08:16:48 PM
Reply #7
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Manti


If the coordinates are known, are they posted somewhere on this site?



I have also been looking for maps and found the SRTM data that is now in public domain I believe. I have compared this with satellite photos (Google Maps') and there are some very extreme discrepancies, hills / peaks in SRTM that don't exist on the satellite photos, also open-pit mines that don't show up on Google.. I'm  a bit baffled. I have been gathering some info for a post but maybe the issue is that SRTM is just not reliable...
Anyway one of the things I noticed that you might be able to answer is that the mountain Kholat Syakhl is now recorded as 1097m high.. is this difference due to the Urals still rising, or just an inaccurate measurement that led to it being labelled 1079 back then?
 

April 13, 2021, 09:17:19 PM
Reply #8
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Horsebite


Hello Manti,

I'm guessing the discrepancy in height is simply because the original height was measured quite some time ago and as measurement accuracy has increased, many locations have seen changes to their height.  This is very common where I live in Alaska.  Many mountain heights were measured in the 1940s and the accuracy of those measurements is simply not as good as what can be achieved with modern survey-grade equipment. 

I too would love to get accurate coordinates.  I think that is important in understanding the movement of individuals and, perhaps, better understanding their motivations.  I understand that might be a stretch.

Regarding SRTM, it is now almost 21 years old.   That means that in many locations you will find features in the landscape, such as mines, that are not present in the SRTM data.  There are other, more modern, elevation models available, but for many applications SRTM is still the gold standard even with its age. 

I know there have been some drone flights over the pass as well.   With those data we could generate a much more accurate elevation model that would show many of the features of the landscape, such as creek channels, vegetation, and even the heights of trees. 

Also, on a different note it appears there was a large tundra fire in the pass last year.  It occurred around July 7-10 (or so) and burned the area from the monument rock down toward the cedar tree.  Surprisingly, it appears it did not go into the forested area very far, if at all. 
 

April 14, 2021, 09:58:54 AM
Reply #9
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Tony


Here is a video that does a pretty good job at explaining:



I think the only thing that might be off is that original investigators described the 3 found returning to the tent to be in more of a straight line between the cedar and tent.

No one is 100% where, exactly, the ravine is located. In the original case files it just described it as being 75m further in to the forest. But there are several ravines in the area making it difficult to locate and the exact location was never marked.

The order of death is up for debate. The only thing that is certain is that the 4 found in the ravine died after the 2 at the cedar since much of their clothing was found at the ravine.

Here is another video that shows the pass and forest area:



His videos are the best on youtube showing the pass and surrounding areas.

My personal belief is that all of them made it to the cedar where Yuri D. and Yuri K. were the first to die. After their death, Igor, Zina, and Rustem made a decision to return to the tent and the others decided to walk further into the forest.
"If there exists a fact which can only be thought of as sinister. A fact which can only point to some sinister underpinning, you will never be able to think up all the non-sinister, perfectly valid explanations for that fact."
- Josiah Thomson
 

April 14, 2021, 11:08:27 AM
Reply #10
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Investigator


Tony, at 2:37 in the first video, the recreate clearly puts Igor's body on quite an elevation relative to the photograph, which led me to question this when I first saw it a while back.  This is also true for Zina as well.
 

April 14, 2021, 12:15:12 PM
Reply #11
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Tony


Tony, at 2:37 in the first video, the recreate clearly puts Igor's body on quite an elevation relative to the photograph, which led me to question this when I first saw it a while back.  This is also true for Zina as well.

Not sure what you mean.

Yeah, the video isn't perfect. Other than the two found at the cedar, it's hard to say for sure exactly where everyone was - especially for Igor, Zina, and Rustem. All the case files account for is how far from the tent they were found and that they were found in a straight line from the tent to the cedar. How straight of a line it was could be open for interpretation.
"If there exists a fact which can only be thought of as sinister. A fact which can only point to some sinister underpinning, you will never be able to think up all the non-sinister, perfectly valid explanations for that fact."
- Josiah Thomson
 

April 14, 2021, 01:37:09 PM
Reply #12
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Investigator


Tony, at 2:37 in the first video, the recreate clearly puts Igor's body on quite an elevation relative to the photograph, which led me to question this when I first saw it a while back.  This is also true for Zina as well.

Not sure what you mean.

Yeah, the video isn't perfect. Other than the two found at the cedar, it's hard to say for sure exactly where everyone was - especially for Igor, Zina, and Rustem. All the case files account for is how far from the tent they were found and that they were found in a straight line from the tent to the cedar. How straight of a line it was could be open for interpretation.

What I mean is that in the photos of Igor and Zina, at least, they seem to be on level ground, whereas the animation makes it look like they may have been struggling to get up an incline when they apparently lost consciousness and died of hypothermia.  This may not matter but it's best to get the details right whenever possible, and creating an animation that has an obvious flaw makes one question the entire aimation, though of course it may be accurate otherwise.
 

April 14, 2021, 02:36:13 PM
Reply #13
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Manti


Some coordinates that can be known for sure: peak of Kholat S., the cedar (assuming it's still there and there's only one conifer missing branches up to 5m high), the Boot rock.


If we want to go strictly by the information in the case files, there are distances given from the peak to the tent, and also from the cedar to the tent (and the helicopter landing site to the tent but we don't know where that was exactly).

Given these, two circles could be drawn and if these intersect, one of the 2 intersections will be the tent site "according to the case files". So in this sense it could be said the case files implicitly determine the exact tent location... What is preventing me from determining this is that I don't have coordinates for the cedar, this can only be determined by those who've been to the pass..
 
 

April 14, 2021, 05:01:56 PM
Reply #14
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Tony


Tony, at 2:37 in the first video, the recreate clearly puts Igor's body on quite an elevation relative to the photograph, which led me to question this when I first saw it a while back.  This is also true for Zina as well.

Not sure what you mean.

Yeah, the video isn't perfect. Other than the two found at the cedar, it's hard to say for sure exactly where everyone was - especially for Igor, Zina, and Rustem. All the case files account for is how far from the tent they were found and that they were found in a straight line from the tent to the cedar. How straight of a line it was could be open for interpretation.

What I mean is that in the photos of Igor and Zina, at least, they seem to be on level ground, whereas the animation makes it look like they may have been struggling to get up an incline when they apparently lost consciousness and died of hypothermia.  This may not matter but it's best to get the details right whenever possible, and creating an animation that has an obvious flaw makes one question the entire aimation, though of course it may be accurate otherwise.

Oh, right. I think the animation is pretty accurate as far as where (approx.) they were found but it doesn't do a good job of illustrating the ups and downs in the terrain after entering the treeline. There's a video on youtube where someone walks the route from the tent to the cedar. Along the way there are red flags which, I presume, marked the locations of Igor, Zina, and Rustem. Since all of the comments were in Russian I posted a google translate question of what the flags represented but didn't get a reply. But, from that video and the one I posted, it seemed that they were relatively the same locations.

I think you're right in that it doesn't matter a whole lot except for maybe one thing. Were the three found returning to the tent found near the footprints. I can't find anything in the case files. If they were found very near the footprints it's possible that they died along the route from the tent to the cedar since it would be near impossible to see and follow their tracks on the way back during a moonless night. There's also the possibility that the footprints were gone by that point and investigators weren't able to conclude one way or the other.

I do think they were at the cedar but there is still that chance that they died along the route - trying to head back to the tent.
"If there exists a fact which can only be thought of as sinister. A fact which can only point to some sinister underpinning, you will never be able to think up all the non-sinister, perfectly valid explanations for that fact."
- Josiah Thomson
 

April 14, 2021, 07:39:58 PM
Reply #15
Offline

KFinn


Tony, at 2:37 in the first video, the recreate clearly puts Igor's body on quite an elevation relative to the photograph, which led me to question this when I first saw it a while back.  This is also true for Zina as well.

Not sure what you mean.

Yeah, the video isn't perfect. Other than the two found at the cedar, it's hard to say for sure exactly where everyone was - especially for Igor, Zina, and Rustem. All the case files account for is how far from the tent they were found and that they were found in a straight line from the tent to the cedar. How straight of a line it was could be open for interpretation.

What I mean is that in the photos of Igor and Zina, at least, they seem to be on level ground, whereas the animation makes it look like they may have been struggling to get up an incline when they apparently lost consciousness and died of hypothermia.  This may not matter but it's best to get the details right whenever possible, and creating an animation that has an obvious flaw makes one question the entire aimation, though of course it may be accurate otherwise.

Oh, right. I think the animation is pretty accurate as far as where (approx.) they were found but it doesn't do a good job of illustrating the ups and downs in the terrain after entering the treeline. There's a video on youtube where someone walks the route from the tent to the cedar. Along the way there are red flags which, I presume, marked the locations of Igor, Zina, and Rustem. Since all of the comments were in Russian I posted a google translate question of what the flags represented but didn't get a reply. But, from that video and the one I posted, it seemed that they were relatively the same locations.

I think you're right in that it doesn't matter a whole lot except for maybe one thing. Were the three found returning to the tent found near the footprints. I can't find anything in the case files. If they were found very near the footprints it's possible that they died along the route from the tent to the cedar since it would be near impossible to see and follow their tracks on the way back during a moonless night. There's also the possibility that the footprints were gone by that point and investigators weren't able to conclude one way or the other.

I do think they were at the cedar but there is still that chance that they died along the route - trying to head back to the tent.

There is, somewhere on this site, some indications that the distances between the tent, cedar and Kolmogorova's body were changed by Ivanov and that the footsteps quite possibility did overlap with where she was found.  I will try to find that in the morning.
-Ren