December 03, 2021, 08:47:20 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Possible reconstructions: yes you might be able to do one!  (Read 2571 times)

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February 08, 2021, 05:47:26 PM
Reply #30
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Manti


Yes, I just find it quite odd they write about the speed of stove assembly on a night when they didn't assemble the stove. But there are other odd things in Evening Otorten... Increased birthrate among hikers? And both the women were virgins. Maybe just another rude joke from one of the guys..
 

February 09, 2021, 12:31:44 AM
Reply #31
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Missi


I never found a report about Zina being virgin. Where did you get that?

On the other hand: It might just be they had the time and wanted to do the paper that evening, so they recollected things. The hint on the increasing birth rate might just be related to the lacking space in the tent and the fact they "cuddled" a lot...
There's also the mention of "love lessons" or something. Which I don't exactly thing that did, either. ;)
 

February 09, 2021, 10:39:45 AM
Reply #32
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RMK


I never found a report about Zina being virgin. Where did you get that?
Kolmogorova's autopsy report notes that the victim's hymen is intact.  For that matter, Dubinina's autopsy report does likewise.
 

February 09, 2021, 01:48:26 PM
Reply #33
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Missi


I've found mentioning of that in Ljubas autopsy report. I didn't come around to reading the one of Zina though and it wasn't mentioned in anything I've come across so far. Thanks for pointing it out.
 

February 09, 2021, 06:17:06 PM
Reply #34
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Investigator


Investigator, I think, you got me wrong. Of course the wind chill is a huge factor. And they would have known that for sure. They were outdoor-people. Yes, you might be able to keep yourself warm for some time by being active. But everything combined I still think it highly improbable they left the tent without sufficient clothes.
And yes, KFinn, the weather is reported to be special around the time. But then again, this is rather a reason to take more than less clothes when leaving the tent.

Manti, we know they used the stove at least once before on this trip. I'm pretty sure there's reference to them having used the stove on earlier hikes before. This is enough that there might be a new high score. Or maybe it was even meant in a sarcastic way and it was the longest time they ever took so far...
As for the tent: Meanwhile I found those pictures. Especially the first and last (see the branches in the doorway) make me suspect, it was a tent without a floor sewn to it but instead there was a floorpiece that had to be put on the ground and the tent erected above it. No prove, just a suspicion, though.
It's described though, that the put the skis underneath the tent for a stable ground and cleared the backpacks to put them flat on the floor for another layer of insulation.

Isn't that "assuming facts not in evidence?"  Now that's fine to do for fun, but if you do that when you do a pro investigation you'll just have a bunch of ideas and nothing to do with them, or you will fixate on something inconsistent with the actual evidence, which is worse most of the time.  The best you can do most of the time is figure out what likely happened, which is what matches the evidence you have best.  It's often the case that the motivations or rationale for some of the decisions don't make sense, but this is not uncommon.  It's known that in situations like fires, around 15% of people, even when they are told what to do in case of fire, just do nothing or do something that is really dumb, for example.  And there are many crimes where nobody can figure out why the perpetrator committed the crime.   But questioning that they camped there and did leave the tent without heavy winter clothing (except for two of them, who were likely the "sentries" for the night) is really arguing for a different "Dyatlov Pass Incident," and one only has so much time; therefore, until new evidence becomes available to support some other DPI, it is not worthwhile for investigators to spend time on such notions.

As to the flooring of the tent, from what I understand, they put the skiis down, then there was a canvas tarp that went over it, and then they put their backpacks on the tarp and lied own on or againsts the backpacks.
 

February 10, 2021, 12:24:46 AM
Reply #35
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Missi


I think, we're misunderstanding each other, Investigator.
My case is:
They put the tent on the mountain. They left the tent, some barely (at least badly) dressed. They knew about the wind chill factor. They would have taken clothes with them. That's the logical thing to do, if there was nothing special happening at the time. More wind being only a reason more to take clothes. Whereas people with guns, hallucinations, meteors, whatnot could be a reason to NOT take them.
 

February 10, 2021, 09:20:33 AM
Reply #36
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KFinn


The tent floor is a question I've also tried to find a definitive answer for.  In Sharavin's interview in 2007-2008, he said the bottom was skis, backpacks, quilted jackets then blankets.  He does later describe them moving the contents of the tent to "a flooring," on the ridge when they were disassembling it all.  Whether that meant a snow cleared area, a tarp brought up to the ridge or the tent floor, it does not say.  There were mentions of a tarp or tarps in the various inventories, which could have been used as a flooring; I have separate canvas floors for most of my canvas tents to limit the weight of the tent, itself.  If you look at the pictures of the tent set up for the forensic analysis, it almost looks like there is a floor attached, but its a black and white photo and hard to determine conclusively. 

If there was a floor, the backpacks would be on top of it, though, else you would have a hard time getting to your gear, as needed. 
-Ren
 

February 10, 2021, 10:35:29 AM
Reply #37
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Missi


The backpacks were empty at night. They took everything out and used the flat backpacks for another insulating layer. I was a little awed when reading this, for I'm a very lazy person and can't imagine the quarrel of packing the backpack daily and unpacking it in the evening...

The picture I linked, the one showing the buildup of the tent, indicated that the canvas was on the branches (if available) and only on top of the canvas somewhere were the packpacks.

A separate floor would also be useful for weight distribution amongst the hikers. So I'd say it's probably a separate one, all things considered...
 

February 10, 2021, 10:51:36 AM
Reply #38
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KFinn


The backpacks were empty at night. They took everything out and used the flat backpacks for another insulating layer. I was a little awed when reading this, for I'm a very lazy person and can't imagine the quarrel of packing the backpack daily and unpacking it in the evening...

The picture I linked, the one showing the buildup of the tent, indicated that the canvas was on the branches (if available) and only on top of the canvas somewhere were the packpacks.

A separate floor would also be useful for weight distribution amongst the hikers. So I'd say it's probably a separate one, all things considered...

That changes some things, then.  The backpacks found in the tent had all sorts of gear in them. 
-Ren
 

February 10, 2021, 11:41:28 AM
Reply #39
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ash73


That changes some things, then.  The backpacks found in the tent had all sorts of gear in them.

I was surprised all the personal diaries were found in a single bag, if I kept a personal diary I wouldn't want others reading it and I'd keep it on my person. Maybe their attitudes were different, but then why not just have one diary?
 

February 10, 2021, 12:05:44 PM
Reply #40
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KFinn


That changes some things, then.  The backpacks found in the tent had all sorts of gear in them.

I was surprised all the personal diaries were found in a single bag, if I kept a personal diary I wouldn't want others reading it and I'd keep it on my person. Maybe their attitudes were different, but then why not just have one diary?

I have to go back and look, but I believe all of the diaries and documents/papers were put into one backpack by the searchers, for the investigator. 
-Ren
 

February 10, 2021, 12:16:48 PM
Reply #41
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Missi


It's reported that the search team put the small things lying around in one backpack to transport them. Plus, as far as I know, the first batch of diaries (which I prefer to think of as mere journals that were intended to document the hike for references which were required to earn the badge they were after) was stored in the storage they build before going up the mountain. It wouldn't make much sense to take them when they were already full.

I'm still not sure if there were diaries inside the tent, though, but I haven't looked into the files listing the found objects, so this is only one part I have to find out, nothing to build a mystery upon just yet. ;)
 

February 10, 2021, 12:51:39 PM
Reply #42
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
That changes some things, then.  The backpacks found in the tent had all sorts of gear in them.

I was surprised all the personal diaries were found in a single bag, if I kept a personal diary I wouldn't want others reading it and I'd keep it on my person. Maybe their attitudes were different, but then why not just have one diary?

Thats what I thought initially. But it could also be for practical reasons, keeping all the paperwork together.
DB
 

February 10, 2021, 01:01:04 PM
Reply #43
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It's reported that the search team put the small things lying around in one backpack to transport them. Plus, as far as I know, the first batch of diaries (which I prefer to think of as mere journals that were intended to document the hike for references which were required to earn the badge they were after) was stored in the storage they build before going up the mountain. It wouldn't make much sense to take them when they were already full.

I'm still not sure if there were diaries inside the tent, though, but I haven't looked into the files listing the found objects, so this is only one part I have to find out, nothing to build a mystery upon just yet. ;)

There were Diaries inside the Tent and they were found in one bag apparently. But one Diary was taken down to the Search Parties Base camp.
DB
 

February 10, 2021, 03:22:24 PM
Reply #44
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Missi


Can you point me to the source, sarapuk? That's be highly appreciated!
 

February 11, 2021, 01:30:19 PM
Reply #45
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Can you point me to the source, sarapuk? That's be highly appreciated!

Try below.

DYATLOV PASS CASE FILES. Volume 1.
ATMANAKI WITNESS TESTIMONY

Sheet 215

- 7 -

the entrance by stacking the corner of the tent with a load so that it will not be torn by the wind. The tent was laid on skis, straps were tied to ski poles, and most of them were not damaged. On the slope of the tent we found a flashlight, an ice ax not far away down, there was a pair of skis stuck in the snow, the windy (north) side of the tent was torn and some blankets and a quilted jacket were protruding out. The other side of the tent was heaped with bulging snow and lay on the bottom of the tent, overlaying all the contents in it. Before we started the search we decided to check if there was anyone left in the tent. Snow was removed, the fallen side of the tent was raised, and we carefully removed the blankets and quilted jackets. There were no people in the tent. Inspected the contents. The bottom of the tent lay on skis, then quilted jackets, backpacks, gaiters and other small equipment. Towards the heads on the south side were felt boots and boots, in the far right corner we found a field bag with the documents of the group, a box of films and money, a camera and a few small objects, everything was packed in a backpack, except for the diary and documents sent to the base camp. There was no point to continue the further dismantling of the things, and so they left everything into place before the investigator arrived, after raising the tent and pulling out three pairs of

Sheet 315

There were many items in the tent. Near the entrance of the tent, which seems to have been opened, lay the stove inside its case. The pipes of the latter were inside the stove, which indicates that the stove was not attempted to be taken out , lit although outside the tent on the rear end end in the snow I found a log, undoubtedly intended for the stove.
Inside the tent were found buckets, at the entrance lay an ax, maybe 2, and saw with a cover. On the head side (if you stand facing the entrance of the tent, then on the right side of it, which is lower on the slope) there were lay personal belongings of the deceased and food products taken from the backpacks. Dyatlov belongings were discovered at the very end of the tent (a field bag containing money, documents, diaries, a camera, etc. After that lay Slobodin and Kolevatov I think, because there were found their belongings. At the entrance to the tent lay either the hiker on duty or the supplies manager because cuts of ham were found here, and it seems that only one piece was eaten (the edge was found), in one of the mugs there were, in my opinion, the remains of oatmeal porridge, possibly the morning remains. We found scattered rusks (our guys could could have cut the bag from the rusks when they first cleared an entry into the tent). In general, there there were not that many products in the tent (for five days at most), which told us that Dyatlov group had made a storage, which we later learned from the diary, it seems, was Dyatlov's, and then found out by the maps they drew.
In the tent there were several pairs of felt boots,
DB
 

February 12, 2021, 12:39:17 AM
Reply #46
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Missi


 

February 13, 2021, 03:27:06 PM
Reply #47
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Investigator


I think, we're misunderstanding each other, Investigator.
My case is:
They put the tent on the mountain. They left the tent, some barely (at least badly) dressed. They knew about the wind chill factor. They would have taken clothes with them. That's the logical thing to do, if there was nothing special happening at the time. More wind being only a reason more to take clothes. Whereas people with guns, hallucinations, meteors, whatnot could be a reason to NOT take them.

If they had done that, there might not be any DPI and we'd be talking about some other odd incident.  People sometimes make mistakes.  Igor himself had a previous group stand still while wild horses charged them.  He was right about that, but apparently very wrong about how to survive in that location wearing what they were wearing with the campfire idea.  He was courageous and not averse to risks (otherwise, no reason to pitch the tent there or not use heat), and it seems they just misjudged how difficult survival would be (perhaps largely due being unfamiliar with the area), but they clearly had a plan and went at that plan with determination.  But we are back at the importance of a reconstruction, which might show us that the tent appeared to be ready to be torn apart very quickly, and so the decision to secure the tent as the primary priority would make sense.
 

February 13, 2021, 04:20:35 PM
Reply #48
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Investigator


When the rescuer claimed that there was an apparent attempt to open the tent, does he mean that a couple of buttons were unbuttoned?  That was my understanding from other sources, which may have gotten their information from this same source.  Anyway, if so, it suggests there was an attempt to unbutton the tent, but it was iced up (and this could explain the bruises on the knuckles of Igor and Slobodin (any othersQ?).  That is, they punched at the opening, trying to get out to secure a tent that appeared to be ready to collapse due to ice/snow buildup, but when that proved to be too slow or difficult, they cut the tent open (we know they had the equipment to sew tents).
 

February 13, 2021, 06:16:17 PM
Reply #49
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KFinn


When the rescuer claimed that there was an apparent attempt to open the tent, does he mean that a couple of buttons were unbuttoned?  That was my understanding from other sources, which may have gotten their information from this same source.  Anyway, if so, it suggests there was an attempt to unbutton the tent, but it was iced up (and this could explain the bruises on the knuckles of Igor and Slobodin (any othersQ?).  That is, they punched at the opening, trying to get out to secure a tent that appeared to be ready to collapse due to ice/snow buildup, but when that proved to be too slow or difficult, they cut the tent open (we know they had the equipment to sew tents).

That's an interesting idea. 
-Ren
 

February 14, 2021, 04:28:21 AM
Reply #50
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Missi


Investor, did you ever sew a canvas tent? It is possible. You can sew even larger rips, but it takes time and it is nothing I'd enjoy to do with a temperature below zero. You HAVE to take off your gloves to do so. They wouldn't have cut it if not absolutely necessary. And for me it's just unthinkable to cut open a tent in order to secure it. That's highly illogical.

I think, we're misunderstanding each other, Investigator.
My case is:
They put the tent on the mountain. They left the tent, some barely (at least badly) dressed. They knew about the wind chill factor. They would have taken clothes with them. That's the logical thing to do, if there was nothing special happening at the time. More wind being only a reason more to take clothes. Whereas people with guns, hallucinations, meteors, whatnot could be a reason to NOT take them.

If they had done that, there might not be any DPI and we'd be talking about some other odd incident.  People sometimes make mistakes.  Igor himself had a previous group stand still while wild horses charged them.  He was right about that, but apparently very wrong about how to survive in that location wearing what they were wearing with the campfire idea.  He was courageous and not averse to risks (otherwise, no reason to pitch the tent there or not use heat), and it seems they just misjudged how difficult survival would be (perhaps largely due being unfamiliar with the area), but they clearly had a plan and went at that plan with determination.  But we are back at the importance of a reconstruction, which might show us that the tent appeared to be ready to be torn apart very quickly, and so the decision to secure the tent as the primary priority would make sense.
Your argument seems to be: They must have made a mistake, otherwise they would have survived.
You yourself mention Igor to have decided absolutely right in another event. But you are completely sure he must have messed up this time. What makes you so sure about that other than we talk about the incident until now? There might have been many other reasons. Sure, they did take some risks (as in traveling in the winter through the Siberian wilderness with only a tent as a shelter) but many people take some risks. Yet not everyone died. There are reasons you might take into account as to why they pitched up the tent on the ridge and why they didn't light the oven. Those reasons range from mistake to decision. You just assume without presenting anything close to a prove.

What makes you so sure the opening of the tent was iced up? Is there a source pointing that direction? Is there any hint that punching an iced canvas can produce similar wounds as those on the hands of the victims? As far as I know about wounds like these, they are typical for punching someone, in some cased with your hand held wrong.
 

February 14, 2021, 04:36:39 AM
Reply #51
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ash73


...it suggests there was an attempt to unbutton the tent, but it was iced up (and this could explain the bruises on the knuckles of Igor and Slobodin (any othersQ?).  That is, they punched at the opening, trying to get out to secure a tent that appeared to be ready to collapse due to ice/snow buildup...

Did the tent fight back and also cause the bruises on their faces?