December 03, 2021, 02:40:20 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Thoughts on the book  (Read 18976 times)

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May 21, 2021, 04:46:54 AM
Reply #180
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Igor Pavlov

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May 21, 2021, 05:07:53 AM
Reply #181
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Mars


I make no comments about the theory in the book. Everything that is written seems probabilistically possible to me. The only thing I’ve been constantly thinking about in my head since I read the book is: These were young, healthy, physically strong people. How is it that out of nine people, even one failed to survive? How come everyone succumbed?
 

May 21, 2021, 05:15:03 AM
Reply #182
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EBE


I make no comments about the theory in the book. Everything that is written seems probabilistically possible to me. The only thing I’ve been constantly thinking about in my head since I read the book is: These were young, healthy, physically strong people. How is it that out of nine people, even one failed to survive? How come everyone succumbed?

Exactly! That is my main concern too.
 

May 21, 2021, 08:44:30 AM
Reply #183
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Igor Pavlov

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These were young, healthy, physically strong people. How is it that out of nine people, even one failed to survive? How come everyone succumbed?
We only have one explanation. To stay alive in such a situation, a person who did not receive serious injuries would have to get out of the tent necessary equipment and a minimum supply of food to go to the nearest settlement. Staying near the tent is difficult to count on a favorable outcome. In principle, it was possible to reach the nearest settlement. But everyone chose to spend their strength on saving their comrades, rather than on their own salvation. And their forces were not unlimited.
 

May 21, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Reply #184
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Mars


Thanks Igor. I agree with your explanation. I myself have tried to resolve my doubt in this way. The only question that constantly comes to my mind is and I can't help myself: Why didn't the uninjured organize themself, divide on two group. One group help the injured, while the other should tried to seek help. There were nine of them anyway. Someone should survive such a situation. Well, of course, it’s one thing to create some situation in my head and another is a historical fact. And unfortunately, the fact is that they all died.
 

May 21, 2021, 01:57:33 PM
Reply #185
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Teddy

Administrator
Have you considered complaining to the site owner about your 'Beginner' status on the forum :-)

You really did me a number here. There are two types of member groups: non post-count and post-count based. A feature that would make only the first type to show is not working (Hide post group titles for grouped members). So I am now cheating by bringing Igor's posts number to 777 so his title doesn't read Expert Beginner. I have requested the help of Loose Cannon to upgrade the forum to the latest version hoping for the bug to go away.
 

May 21, 2021, 04:41:59 PM
Reply #186
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bertie


These were young, healthy, physically strong people. How is it that out of nine people, even one failed to survive? How come everyone succumbed?
Staying near the tent is difficult to count on a favorable outcome. In principle, it was possible to reach the nearest settlement. But everyone chose to spend their strength on saving their comrades, rather than on their own salvation.

I believe that, and such belief has come through in WABs writing too.
One can never know a persons motivations, but they just really seemed like fine young people.
 

May 21, 2021, 04:47:42 PM
Reply #187
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bertie


Have you considered complaining to the site owner about your 'Beginner' status on the forum :-)
I have requested the help of Loose Cannon to upgrade the forum to the latest version hoping for the bug to go away.

Speaking of whom, where has he been the past month? Probably taking a break from forum life, most understandable!
I've had a busy little burst here over the past few days and will likely disappear again until the next exciting find.
Keep the faith  thumb1
 

May 21, 2021, 06:31:59 PM
Reply #188
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RMK


These were young, healthy, physically strong people. How is it that out of nine people, even one failed to survive? How come everyone succumbed?
We only have one explanation. To stay alive in such a situation, a person who did not receive serious injuries would have to get out of the tent necessary equipment and a minimum supply of food to go to the nearest settlement. Staying near the tent is difficult to count on a favorable outcome. In principle, it was possible to reach the nearest settlement. But everyone chose to spend their strength on saving their comrades, rather than on their own salvation. And their forces were not unlimited.
Mars' question above is a question that I had.  But, I suspected that Igor & Teddy would give the same answer that Igor did indeed give above.  Furthermore, it is an answer I find credible, since it aligns with my thoughts as well.

See, my family knew I was hyped up for the Pavlov-Hadjiyska book, and the day after I finished it, I told them this: (1) the book was not really about the Dyatlov hikers (by that, I mean that their backgrounds, personalities, etc. were completely unrelated to the Incident); (2) the theory is at the extreme of "wrong place at the wrong time"; and (3) any other group of 9 hikers with similar unit cohesion would have met the same fate.  So, I'm willing to believe that the Dyatlovites' mutual commitment to their comrades is a significant factor in why none of them survived.

I guess a minor criticism I have is that the book doesn't have much to say about what the survivors did between the tree-fall and when the conspirators discovered their dead bodies.  But, maybe the answer would be pure speculation?  The overall theory doesn't seem to depend on any narrative for what the survivors did during that time...
 

May 21, 2021, 11:29:23 PM
Reply #189
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Mars


Igor I have another question. Through your book, it has slowly become clear that many more people were constantly present in the field of tragedy than has been presented so far. So far, connoisseurs have claimed that the Dyatlov group was the only one in the field and that there was no one far around. I wonder to what extent you even allow the possibility that they came into any physical contact with other people at the time of the tragedy. Have you completely ruled out this possibility?

 

May 22, 2021, 12:33:08 AM
Reply #190
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Igor Pavlov

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I am now cheating by bringing Igor's posts number to 777
I quickly moved up the career forum ladder  shock1.
 bow7
 

May 22, 2021, 12:35:18 AM
Reply #191
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EBE


But everyone chose to spend their strength on saving their comrades, rather than on their own salvation. And their forces were not unlimited.

And they did not even put their shoes on...

Sounds very improbable to me..
 

May 22, 2021, 12:50:15 AM
Reply #192
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Igor Pavlov

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I wonder to what extent you even allow the possibility that they came into any physical contact with other people at the time of the tragedy. Have you completely ruled out this possibility?
Our supposed ground-based anomaly-checking team was far enough away from this location. Directly in the area of the pass, tourists could only meet Mansi hunters. A meeting with them is quite possible, but most likely, that would be reflected in the diaries. if you mean a clash, a fight - this is also possible. But then I can't explain why the fight with Mansi was covered up by geologists, the military, and ivdellag.
 

May 22, 2021, 12:55:32 AM
Reply #193
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Igor Pavlov

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And they did not even put their shoes on...
Just because they were found without shoes doesn't mean they didn't put their shoes on initially.
 

May 22, 2021, 01:02:42 AM
Reply #194
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bertie


But everyone chose to spend their strength on saving their comrades, rather than on their own salvation. And their forces were not unlimited.

And they did not even put their shoes on...

Sounds very improbable to me..

You realise you are replying to one of the authors of a book whose contention is that the scene was staged after the deaths.
Perhaps you have found yourself in the wrong thread.
 

May 22, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
Reply #195
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Teddy

Administrator
This board is called "Thoughts on the book".
I would think to be asking questions you should have read the book.
EBE, your questions do not stick. What a CWOT (complete waste of time).

By adding Sounds very improbable to me. or I will happily let myself to be convinced. you make it sound like the whole case is to convince you or make you happy.
This is a theory - ask questions about the theory and Igor will "happily" answer, but do not make it about your conviction. You are not a juror.
Stick to questions and information. What you do with it emotionally is your own business. Otherwise affects the discussion. Because we don't have to stick around to make you happy. We want to answer questions. For example, you ask: Why weren't they wearing their shoes? We say: According to our theory we can't be sure who was wearing what and how does this make you feel is your problem, not ours. Next question, please.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 02:29:29 AM by Teddy »
 

May 22, 2021, 02:53:35 AM
Reply #196
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Mars


Igor thank you. Yes, I was thinking of any possibility of violent physical contact. Maybe geologists, their escort groups, military patrols ... but if you say they were just Mansi at the time, then I also don’t know why there would be an overlap at all. Given that those times aren’t that very distant. Do you think it’s possible that there is still someone who was present and actually knows the whole story?
 

May 22, 2021, 03:13:55 AM
Reply #197
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Teddy

Administrator
The theory is only one chapter of the book. The amount of information that Igor has put together can be used for any other theory. While we are working on the book - me translating, not understanding, asking million of questions about particulars, I set aside so much information that didn't go into the book, but I will eventually publish on https://dyatlovpass.com/1079 This is how I came with this idea on first place. Every line in this book refers to something that is in this area. This is your chance to ask your own questions. I had my chance, your turn now, while I cope with all that is still not published.

With my previous post I am trying to explain that it is not productive to poke the theory like a punch back only to say - nay, not convinced. Of course, the theory has to hold off, but with Dyatlov case I have noticed that the people behave like this: first they try to come up with their own theory - these are the best readers, the fresh minds and eyes, they ask questions, they are thinking. Like dating :) Then they get married to a theory (borrowing this from EBE) and they stop thinking and start being confrontational. According to EBE I am in this phase of my life and I agree. But I stay in the marriage and do not go trashing other people's theories (marriages). What do you choose to do with your energy and time? Not believing or defending something. So EBE, we will not convince you. Let us at least tell you something you don't know. Do you believe Igor is capable to supply you with information you didn't know? If you do, then please be more respectful. I respect anyone that knows more about the case than me. It is only natural, you may learn something from them. In this particular thread you know nothing about the case compared to Igor. So stick around if you can contribute something, even if it is questions that leads to something other than your conviction.

To finish my metaphor about marriage (to theories), there are the ones that never get married. They do not commit to a theory, which I completely understand, I lived "single" for 8 years. It is lonely out there, this case gets on your nerves. But if you in your heart, decide that solving this case is not worth it (because you can't come up with the idea of what happened) then you tend to disapprove of everything and everyone on your way as too "ugly" for you.

What a long post saying nothing, really. Just either say something you know better or do not attack people that are trying to solve it, ok?
And yes, ask questions. You know the saying you don't see the forest for the trees? Well Igor was struggling with the trees for a decade and finally made it out and saw the forest. Now hearing the theory right off the bat we see the forest and don't want to get in between the trees. Common, get in.
If I write one more line like that I am going to jump out the window.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 03:22:12 AM by Teddy »
 

May 22, 2021, 03:40:44 AM
Reply #198
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Teddy

Administrator
In short - there are people with theories and experts on the case. Sometimes they overlap, not always. Igor is both. If you don't like him for the theory then tread him as the person who know this case inside out.
I know - jumping now.
 

May 22, 2021, 03:52:04 AM
Reply #199
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bertie


Teddy I would write it in shorter form.

Stupid people pretending to be experts are everywhere, in any field, and the last thing this world needs are more of such.
True experts are rare, in any field, and should be treasured.

You can usually pick a real expert by how they interact when dealing with their special subject - a real expert is always trying to build insight and encouragement in others.
A pretend expert is always trying to make themself look like an expert and just makes the world a more depressing place in the process.

Anyway, I've been back here too long now, see y'all on the flip side🙏

 

May 22, 2021, 04:10:27 AM
Reply #200
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Teddy

Administrator
Anyway, I've been back here too long now, see y'all on the flip side🙏

We are all headed there. All the best in your future endeavors!

Want to add - reading the book will put more thoughts in your head, more ideas where to look and what to ask. The book is not just the theory. It is the volume on the case. Everything and everyone is in it.
We have two members (Jacques-Emile & bertie) on this board that are going away having had their answers, and because they know where to look if they have new questions. I myself, after doing all that is necessary to bring this new book into the world, intend to get back to my travels. The first one I hope to be back to the pass to close the circle.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 04:14:49 AM by Teddy »
 

May 22, 2021, 05:34:33 AM
Reply #201
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Igor Pavlov

Expert
Do you think it’s possible that there is still someone who was present and actually knows the whole story?
Yes, it is possible. He must be about 80 years old. But the chances are very small.
 

May 22, 2021, 09:19:38 AM
Reply #202
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Mars


Igor that's great. I believe that, given that 80 years is not much of an age today, your book, as it spreads across Russia, will encourage someone to feel an ethical and moral duty to confess. This answer of yours gave me hope.
 

May 24, 2021, 07:13:45 AM
Reply #203
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Jacques-Emile


Why?  It is testimony and belief, from persons unknown in honor of the nine travelers who died so cruelly, that is why we do this.  We - most of whom were not even born that fateful day - insist that they deserve more than an epitaph of lies and a hasty grave.  They were PERSONS, they were HUMAN, and they deserve a gentle and somber history of the TRUTH of what happened, and for this we explore here.  If I am ever in Yekaterinburg, I shall bury in a small box a copy of the book in Russian, a tasteful distance near their graves in Ivanovskoe and Mikhailovskoe Cemeteries, for they deserve to be buried with the truth, at the best that we can find it now.  The book is not sacred, but the effort to speak the truth of the dead, is.

Before that time, a character in Koestler's Darkness at Noon stated the following brilliancy:

Quote
There are only two conceptions of human ethics and they are at opposite poles.
One of them is Christian and humane, declares the individual to be sacrosanct and asserts that the rules of arithmetic are not to be applied to human units.
The other starts from the basic principle that a collective aim justifies all means, and not only allows, but demands, that the individual should in every way be subordinated and sacrificed to the community which may dispose of it as an experimentation rabbit or a sacrificial lamb. The first conception could be called anti-vivisection morality, the second, vivisection morality.
Whoever is burdened with power and responsibility finds out on the first occasion that he has to choose; and he is fatally driven to the second alternative.
So he speaks, is that true?

I do know that we all walk with one foot in the province of the zek, and one foot in the province of Beria.  We pretend that this is not so, but it is all too easy to slip into puppetry, playing a game of the Dyatlov corpses, moving these poor meat puppets hither and yon, crushing a skull with a rifle but or blasting a chest with explosives or avalanches or such, and we risk profaning the sancrosanct, our brothers and sisters who died in such undeserving ways.

What I completed in my own heart was not solving the ultimate riddle - that will never be done, for every riddle solved brings on the next.  I was done, to the point that I could lay these poor souls down to await their eternity.  I no longer feel quizzical about them, just unbelievably sad for these poor children.  Whether it was God's hand or man's that snuffed them out, whether they died where they lay or were dragged about indifferently by selfish men after their demise, that now lays in the hand of justice other than mine.

I most emphatically endorse and support those who look for the sacredness implicit in justice and truth, for that struggle does honor to these men and women.  Carry on!  But for me, it no longer turns toward the province of the zek, but that of Beria and Stalin.  I must not sport with them any more.  That is my truth, my conscience, not yours.  I wanted to add this because I do not drop these poor souls as though I am bored with them.  It is time for me to bury them in reverence, that is why.
Darkness at Noon, Arthur Koestler 1940.  Also read a remarkable writer, Yevgeny Zamyatin, whose book WE inspired lesser efforts from George Orwell in 1984, Aldous Huxley in Brave New World, and various writings of Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum, graduate of Petrograd State University who wrote as Ayn Rand.
Joy upon all who come here, and gratitude to the writers of 1079.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 08:39:13 AM by Teddy »
 

May 25, 2021, 06:26:12 AM
Reply #204
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MDGross


By asking questions, we honor the memory of the brave Dyatlov nine. Something happened that night because we see the tragic result. Our hope is that some day our questions will be answered at last. Until that day arrives, and perhaps it never will, we will continue to ask questions. To quote Churchill: "...failure is not final; it is the courage to continue that counts."
 

May 25, 2021, 06:34:51 AM
Reply #205
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MDGross


Correction (apologies to Sir Winston): "...failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."
 

May 25, 2021, 10:59:31 AM
Reply #206
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RidgeWatcher


Hello Teddy,

You have answered my question in your book regarding why Nurse Solter would have the need to clean the very dirty six bodies in the morgue, my question was how dirty could they get in the snow and ice, not much unless...

My second question here is after the tragedy occurred in the forest, then why would the makeshift cache be developed. I did read the book and I know a good amount of food provisions were missing but why the cache after the accident? I always picture the mandolin laying there, sadly.
 

May 25, 2021, 12:16:00 PM
Reply #207
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Teddy

Administrator
my question was how dirty could they get in the snow and ice, not much unless...
They have been in an accident, of course they would be dirty. Some of you want more dirt (EBE), others less dirt (RidgeWatcher), make up your mind.

In our account of events the storage (labaz) was where later the tent was pitched (not by Dyatlov group).
After finding the tent pinned by the tree and bodies in and out (the labaz was flagged with a gaiter and must have been one of the first things they saw on the slope) they flew the bodies found so far (5+1) to the morgue. This is before they felt threatened. They didn't expect a search, it was normal to scavenge the original labaz, fold the tent, keep looking for more bodies till they knew who they are and how many.

Then all hell broke loose. Massive search, they don't know how many are in the group, what will be their injuries, so they hastily put the tent on the slope to account for the scattered items from the original labaz which the snow has covered, put the bodies back since there will be more bodies, so they can't move them away, how will it look when they find the ones still unaccounted for... Then the diary is found, and it says in it that they were planning on building a storage... so the conspirators need to produce a storage... and put in it the items they took from the original storage like boots, mandolin, they add food from the Ivdellag, not really making thorough calculation of the food, they knew what was approximately in the original labaz, they just didn't keep it since there was not suppose to be any investigation. The hikers died in an accident... but before they knew who they were, Moscow, Khrushchev and everyone else was on their heels. They were obviously interrupted, the positioning of the bodies is suggestive of dragging and dumping. The labaz was not even there when the search started. According to Yarovoy, the storage was 10 meters away from the ski track from the search camp to the pass. 30 feet and for 5 days no one saw it going up and down like trail of ants.

In short - the labaz was removed routinely... and then when everyone started looking for a storage they gave them one 10 m away to be found. There are items in this labaz that are hard to explain, like the cardboard on the bottom, where did that come from? The storage was marked with a torn gaiter strung on skis, the whole setup looks like a storage built on a treeless slope, not in a forest. Everyone says that if a storage is left in a forest it has to look differently. When locals are asked what do they think of the Dyatlov group labaz, the answer is where do you see a labaz? This is what a labaz should look like (https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#labaz), the provisions have to be raised on trees or else they will have the fate of Dubinina's eyes and tongue. Even the fact that the food in the storage was undisturbed means that it was very recently left there, not a month earlier. The labaz was officially found on March 2.

More on the labaz: https://dyatlovpass.com/labaz
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 01:46:56 PM by Teddy »
 

May 26, 2021, 08:00:35 AM
Reply #208
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RidgeWatcher


Thank you, Teddy

You explained that perfectly. There is a lot of information in your book to take it all in at one reading. I think the book really needs two readings.
 

May 26, 2021, 02:05:01 PM
Reply #209
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Teddy

Administrator
There is a lot of information in your book to take it all in at one reading. I think the book really needs two readings.
I know the information could fill two books. We left out more, could fill a third one easy.