September 23, 2021, 02:25:53 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Exiting the tent  (Read 5061 times)

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March 25, 2021, 09:45:59 AM
Reply #30
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sarapuk

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If it buried the tent, why was the tent visible in the photo? The way the tent looks in the photo, the 9 could have easily gotten their warm gear out

We can see from disturbed snow that searchers made digging before the photo was taken. There was 26 days before tent was found so eroding winds are factor also.

What about the Footprints  !  ? 
DB

March 25, 2021, 09:49:19 AM
Reply #31
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sarapuk

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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski

Good point, I was thinking exactly same. Force from snow slabs is calculated to cause moderate to severe, but not life threatening injuries (fig 5). Properly anchore ski stays put or breaks. If the force would have been strong enough to break skis, they would be killed almost instantly. We can se that there is one broken ski pole, which is much weaker. It was strong enough to break ski pole and ribs, but not properly anchored skis.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3

The only part where this falls apart for me is the inclusion of the injuries at the tent site.  With the injuries that Zolotaryev and Dubinina had, they would not have been able to walk the mile down to the cedar and on to the ravine.  People *have* survived with extensive injuries but flail chest fractures with punctured organs are extremely difficult even under the best of circumstances.  The extent of their injuries, I just do not think it was possible to them to then walk so far.

Agreed, it is higly doubtful they got severe thorax injuries and then walked down to forest. I think minor slab avalanche could be the cause to exit the tent. It prevented them to get supplies and warm clothes from the tent. Their best chances to survival was the storage, but they made navigation errror and descended to cedar and eventually died there. Major thorax injuries happened down at the forest.

Climbing to cedar is puzzling me. I explain myself they tried to communicate by means of light because they cut branches from cedar. To me such communication means split group.

Minor slab avalanche  !  ?  In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.
DB

March 25, 2021, 09:52:28 AM
Reply #32
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sarapuk

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    • Isn't it strange that the most injured wore the most clothes? I don't think they would be the ones to survive longest, longer than the Yuris next to the fire.
    Good point, it seems to me as selflesness, will to survive together and keep all comrades alive.

       
    • The standing skis that Tenne mentions above... And the fact that the tent didn't move.  Don't you think in a slab avalanche scenario the tent would be moved? Most of the force is lateral.


    Are you referring to the Head Injuries that probably killed some of the Group. In which case how did they end up a mile away  !  ? 
    Yes, that needs explanation, propably they didn’t had fixed canvas floor on the tent so it was easy to move. Slab moved only few metres and velocity was low, 2 m/s. Nearest part of the snow just dropped down 0.5 metres by  gravity (and snow mass anchored tent). Of course there was lateral movement over the tent otherwise they all had buried.

    [/list]Here's another version: Could it be that the avalanche only caught Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo? As they are the ones with the severe injuries but also the most clothes, so they might have been outside, smoking, talking, looking at the sky, something like that. And then a slab fails near them... The others would dig them out and decide that they need a heat source to warm them up, and maybe that is the reason to descend? This doesn't explain the cuts in the tent though.

    Good point. Another explanation could be the sleeping order. If some of them slept head toward uphill and others toward downhill, so thorax and head injuries occured to persons head toward downhill. There is short movies about the simulation in the end of this article.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3

    Short movie of the simulation:


    DB

    March 25, 2021, 01:09:44 PM
    Reply #33

    trekker

    Guest
    The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something.

    What was the cause of fear? We don’t have any evidence of any reasonable cause.

    March 25, 2021, 03:02:45 PM
    Reply #34

    trekker

    Guest
    Minor slab avalanche  !  ?  In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.

    Sorry, english is not my native language, but in this report they use words ”release of a small snow slab”. Maybe my phrasing of minor slab avalance was totally wrong.

    ”Here, we show that—even though the occurrence of an avalanche at this location is unlikely under natural conditions—the combination of four critical factors allowed the release of a small snow slab directly above the tent.”

    How much snow released in to the tent? Tent was around 8 squaremetres and if the snow was around 0.5m deep that is around 1500 kg. An we can see from simulation that slab didn’t fall entirely. If you try to dig, more snow will fall down to the tent. And please note, this is not animation, it is simulation based on calculations.


    March 25, 2021, 06:52:48 PM
    Reply #35
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    sarapuk

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    The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something.

    What was the cause of fear? We don’t have any evidence of any reasonable cause.

    Of course we dont have any Evidence otherwise this Case would be wrapped up straight away. There were no other people at the Tent when the Dyatlov Group fled with no proper clothing or equipment. Seems like they feared something.
    DB

    March 25, 2021, 06:56:12 PM
    Reply #36
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    sarapuk

    Case-Files Achievement Recipient
    Minor slab avalanche  !  ?  In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.

    Sorry, english is not my native language, but in this report they use words ”release of a small snow slab”. Maybe my phrasing of minor slab avalance was totally wrong.

    ”Here, we show that—even though the occurrence of an avalanche at this location is unlikely under natural conditions—the combination of four critical factors allowed the release of a small snow slab directly above the tent.”

    How much snow released in to the tent? Tent was around 8 squaremetres and if the snow was around 0.5m deep that is around 1500 kg. An we can see from simulation that slab didn’t fall entirely. If you try to dig, more snow will fall down to the tent. And please note, this is not animation, it is simulation based on calculations.



    Small Snow Slab  !  ? Once again.  They would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.

    DB

    March 26, 2021, 05:27:00 PM
    Reply #37

    trekker

    Guest
    Seems like they feared something.

    But you can't provide any credible explanation. What cause of fear made them rip the tent and leave without proper clothing? Zero evidence of physical threat. Not even gradually increasing anxiety or fear (stalker behind them or infrasound) would have made them rip tent open (better use proper door) and escape to cold without proper clothing. Only explanation come to my mind is sound and I can't imagine any sound that cause 9 persons rip tent and escape instantly without proper clothing to almost certain death.

    Other explanation is release of a small snow slab, which prevented collecting proper clothing.


    March 26, 2021, 05:32:50 PM
    Reply #38

    trekker

    Guest
    The Storage wasnt that close.

    How distant was that storage? We all have same maps, so the distance is very easy to measure. Please provide your number?

    March 26, 2021, 08:55:20 PM
    Reply #39
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    Manti


    I have read the recent links posted here to the Russian forum where it's claimed candles, clothing pins etc. were found at the pass by members of the public (in the last few years).

    According to the tent location based on those finds, the labaz was closer than the cedar.... But even according to the more traditional tent location indicated on maps on this site, the distance is about equal.


    Minor slab avalanche  !  ?  In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.

    Sorry, english is not my native language, but in this report they use words ”release of a small snow slab”. Maybe my phrasing of minor slab avalance was totally wrong.

    ”Here, we show that—even though the occurrence of an avalanche at this location is unlikely under natural conditions—the combination of four critical factors allowed the release of a small snow slab directly above the tent.”

    How much snow released in to the tent? Tent was around 8 squaremetres and if the snow was around 0.5m deep that is around 1500 kg. An we can see from simulation that slab didn’t fall entirely. If you try to dig, more snow will fall down to the tent. And please note, this is not animation, it is simulation based on calculations.






    I'm not an expert on snow or avalanches, thought I have seen more snow than I ever wanted.. but what this video seems to show is almost a block of ice. If we assume the raised footprints indeed existed, those can only be formed in powder snow. Avalanche can also occur in powder snow but that's not what this video shows...

    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.


    And lastly......... I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing they would sleep in a "head to toe" formation...... I have done that in a tent and it's very.... uncomfortable........... Just consider that they had no opportunity to shower for several days.....
    « Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 09:17:16 PM by Manti »

    March 27, 2021, 02:20:00 AM
    Reply #40

    trekker

    Guest
    I'm not an expert on snow or avalanches, thought I have seen more snow than I ever wanted.. but what this video seems to show is almost a block of ice. If we assume the raised footprints indeed existed, those can only be formed in powder snow. Avalanche can also occur in powder snow but that's not what this video shows...

    Yes, that is hard to grasp for me. To my understanding important points are:
    -local topography is small depression with rather steep angle, 28 to 30 degrees
    -weak, low friction layer of snow was due to local depression steep angle
    -wind blown snow filled local depressions (also like in the ravine) and built uniform layer of snow, which was angled like terrain as a whole (lower than traditional avalanche threshold)
    -Snow layer above weak layer was deep at the depression, but thin above depression
    -Thin top doesn't leave deep and distinct crack line typical to slab avalanche, so it's hard to tell afterwards if any slab was released
    -Everything is good as long as snow layer is uniform, this is most important, spontaneous avalanches never occur if layer is uniform
    -If you disturb the uniform layer and make cut wide enough to the deep snow on depression, the layer lose support from below
    -If you cut snow, layer is supported only from friction from weak layer and by thin layer above the local depression
    -Slab could release immeadiately if the angles are steep enough, but in Dyatlov case angle was not and it didn't come down immediately as they was digging place for tent
    -In windy conditions snow accumulated to cut (Wind slab) and increased load so that it overcome support from friction and upper thin layer
    -basically it was delayed  release of a small snow slab, not avalanche as most of us imagine avalance is

    To me this situation is analogous in mechanism and scale to snow sliding from metal roof like in this picture. Metal roof is "weak layer" of low friction, snow is already broken free from top "thin layer" and supported only from below and friction of the metal roof. I wouldn't cut this snow and sleep under it in the cut.


    « Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 04:38:07 AM by trekker »

    March 27, 2021, 02:59:54 AM
    Reply #41

    trekker

    Guest
    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
    « Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 04:17:48 AM by trekker »

    March 27, 2021, 09:48:31 AM
    Reply #42
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    KFinn


    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    You've hit on an excellent point.  There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958.  That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident.  It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome.  It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.
    -Ren

    March 27, 2021, 10:15:47 AM
    Reply #43

    trekker

    Guest
    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    You've hit on an excellent point.  There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958.  That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident.  It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome.  It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.

    Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.
    « Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 10:22:38 AM by trekker »

    March 27, 2021, 11:37:40 AM
    Reply #44
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    KFinn


    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    You've hit on an excellent point.  There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958.  That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident.  It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome.  It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.

    Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.

    I completely agree with you on the conspiracy and inefficient bureaucracy.   Especially at this time when Khruschev was promoting decentralization but had not given regions authority to pick up the slack.  It was way too confusing to everyone for there to be any grand conspiracy involving the higher ups, in my opinion.  But because there was so much invested in promoting outdoor tourism, one bad incident would be a huge public relations disaster and nine dead, young hikers was a very bad incident!!!
    -Ren

    March 27, 2021, 11:46:42 AM
    Reply #45

    trekker

    Guest
    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    You've hit on an excellent point.  There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958.  That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident.  It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome.  It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.

    Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.

    I completely agree with you on the conspiracy and inefficient bureaucracy.   Especially at this time when Khruschev was promoting decentralization but had not given regions authority to pick up the slack.  It was way too confusing to everyone for there to be any grand conspiracy involving the higher ups, in my opinion.  But because there was so much invested in promoting outdoor tourism, one bad incident would be a huge public relations disaster and nine dead, young hikers was a very bad incident!!!

    Totally agree with You. I have always said as a training instructor of FDF that orienteering skill is privilege of free citizen like 2nd amendment of US Constitution (this is nothing against the Soviet people, I think the group was exemplary of selflessness and comradeship). This is totally my personal speculation, but in my opinion they hadn't good orienteering skills. They did only under 2 km trek on the day before incident and they made navigation error for not going through pass but instead ascended too high up to Kholat Syakhl.

    Personally my roughest experience trek like this was light infantry company march training above arctic circle in Finland roughly at the same time of year. In the excercise we were chased by the "enemy" and we had to trek some 80 km in time bit over 24 hours. We had around 40 kg backpacks plus all company equipment in sleds. O'boy we made minor mistakes in squad and platoon level and see all kinds of supernatural phenomenons  grin1 But eventually we made it to the goal. The most crucial was orienteering skill. As a company we had excellent navigator (without GPS) and we made it. The excercise was two weeks long, I slept two days almost  continuously after the march and excercise  grin1.
    « Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 12:40:56 PM by trekker »

    March 27, 2021, 12:52:16 PM
    Reply #46
    Offline

    KFinn


    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    You've hit on an excellent point.  There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958.  That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident.  It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome.  It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.

    Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.

    I completely agree with you on the conspiracy and inefficient bureaucracy.   Especially at this time when Khruschev was promoting decentralization but had not given regions authority to pick up the slack.  It was way too confusing to everyone for there to be any grand conspiracy involving the higher ups, in my opinion.  But because there was so much invested in promoting outdoor tourism, one bad incident would be a huge public relations disaster and nine dead, young hikers was a very bad incident!!!

    Totally agree with You. I have always said as a training instructor of FDF that orienteering skill is privilege of free citizen like 2nd amendment of US Constitution (this is nothing against the Soviet people, I think the group was exemplary of selflessness and comradeship). This is totally my personal speculation, but in my opinion they hadn't good orienteering skills. They did only under 2 km trek on the day before incident and they made navigation error for not going through pass but instead ascended too high up to Kholat Syakhl.

    Personally my roughest experience trek like this was light infantry company march training above arctic circle in Finland roughly at the same time of year. In the excercise we were chased by the "enemy" and we had to trek some 80 km in time bit over 24 hours. We had around 40 kg backpacks plus all company equipment in sleds. O'boy we made minor mistakes in squad and platoon level and see all kinds of supernatural phenomenons  grin1 But eventually we made it to the goal. The most crucial was orienteering skill. As a company we had excellent navigator (without GPS) and we made it. The excercise was two weeks long, I slept two days almost  continuously after the march and excercise  grin1.

    That sounds brutal but what an experience!!! 
    -Ren

    March 27, 2021, 05:46:46 PM
    Reply #47
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    sarapuk

    Case-Files Achievement Recipient
    Seems like they feared something.

    But you can't provide any credible explanation. What cause of fear made them rip the tent and leave without proper clothing? Zero evidence of physical threat. Not even gradually increasing anxiety or fear (stalker behind them or infrasound) would have made them rip tent open (better use proper door) and escape to cold without proper clothing. Only explanation come to my mind is sound and I can't imagine any sound that cause 9 persons rip tent and escape instantly without proper clothing to almost certain death.

    Other explanation is release of a small snow slab, which prevented collecting proper clothing.

    Without Evidence no one can provide a credible explanation. Thats obvious. But do you really think that a small snow slab would force the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge and go a mile not properly dressed in minus 20 degrees Centigrade or more  !  ?  That doesnt make sense to me.
    DB

    March 28, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
    Reply #48

    trekker

    Guest
    But do you really think that a small snow slab would force the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge and go a mile not properly dressed in minus 20 degrees Centigrade or more  !  ?  That doesnt make sense to me.

    That was 1500 kg of snow and another 1500 kg coming down as they tried to dig the tent. Their skis was under the tent so they had to dig bare hands. My estimation is based roughly 8 m x 5 m triangular snow slab average thickness of 0.5 m.

    If we look photographs of the tent, we can clearly see that the wall is missing when searchers found the tent. In photograph below we can see they are digging roughly 1 m deep place and wall to the tent.



    We cannot see such a wall in photograph below so the wall disappeared. Was the cause release of snow slab or wind?


    March 29, 2021, 02:36:34 AM
    Reply #49
    Offline

    Manti


    1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?


    In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?





    March 29, 2021, 03:23:59 AM
    Reply #50
    Offline

    Ziljoe


    1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?


    In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?

    All very good questions.

    March 29, 2021, 04:41:36 AM
    Reply #51

    trekker

    Guest
    1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?


    In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?

    My calculation based 20 squaremetre slab, average thickness of 0.5 m. 10 cubic metres is roughly 3000-4000 kg. Velocity was so slow that when tent spot was filled, rest of the slab stay above the tent. So there was from hundreds of kilos to 1500 kg of snow in the tent. Because this wasn't really avalance (velocity about 2 m/s), snow was not like a cement, it was more fluffy and chunky so it was possible to crawl out of the snow. And of course when you are in the tent, snow doesn't lock your feet and arms because it cannot go between your body and arms, on between your feet. So you have a bit more freedom of movement in the tent.

    March 29, 2021, 06:46:12 AM
    Reply #52
    Offline

    Ziljoe


    1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?


    In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?

    My calculation based 20 squaremetre slab, average thickness of 0.5 m. 10 cubic metres is roughly 3000-4000 kg. Velocity was so slow that when tent spot was filled, rest of the slab stay above the tent. So there was from hundreds of kilos to 1500 kg of snow in the tent. Because this wasn't really avalance (velocity about 2 m/s), snow was not like a cement, it was more fluffy and chunky so it was possible to crawl out of the snow. And of course when you are in the tent, snow doesn't lock your feet and arms because it cannot go between your body and arms, on between your feet. So you have a bit more freedom of movement in the tent.

    Plausible.....

    « Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 06:55:13 AM by Ziljoe »

    March 29, 2021, 07:46:52 PM
    Reply #53
    Offline

    KFinn


    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass.  Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there.  Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!!  If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage? 
    -Ren

    March 29, 2021, 09:13:54 PM
    Reply #54

    trekker

    Guest
    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass.  Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there.  Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!!  If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?

    Yes, I knew that but was freaking out when I see this, 1700 units at the tent. If the units are milliradians, that would be over 90 degrees. But when looked closely, units are not related to angles and magnetic anomaly doesn't affect compass. Still they made systematic navigational errors at Kholat Syakhl. They navigated too much left and ended high up near the top when they should go right through the pass. At night they navigated too much left and ended to cedar, instead of the storage.

    "Aleksander Alekseenkov, a researcher of the tragedy from Moscow, told about this during the annual Dyatlov group conference in Yekaterinburg, February 2, 2021. For many years in a row, twice a year (in summer and winter), he traveled to the Dyatlov Pass to conduct various experiments. "My expectations were justified: a magnetic anomaly was discovered a few hundred meters from the tent site, - said Aleksander Alekseenkov. - The gradient (spread) of the measurement was from several units to several tens of units, and in that place - right up to 1700 units, that is, the difference is several orders of magnitude.""

    To me going to cedar instead of the storage is even greater mystery than reason to leave tent without proper clothing.
    « Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 09:28:33 PM by trekker »

    March 30, 2021, 02:44:56 AM
    Reply #55
    Offline

    Jay


    There were two flashlights found at the scene. one at the tent, and the one further down the slope was still working when found. why would they not pick through the warm clothing at the tent using the flashlight rather than head down the slope, in the freezing cold, not properly dressed and why would they leave a working flashlight and keep going in the dark if that is why they left the tent?

    The small number of flashlights baffles me. They were experienced hikers and they knew they would be spending many nights (dark nights) on this expedition. Why not each of them make sure they each have a flashlight. And what about batteries for the flashlights - I haven't seen batteries mentioned anywhere.

    March 30, 2021, 07:51:31 AM
    Reply #56
    Offline

    KFinn


    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass.  Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there.  Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!!  If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?

    Yes, I knew that but was freaking out when I see this, 1700 units at the tent. If the units are milliradians, that would be over 90 degrees. But when looked closely, units are not related to angles and magnetic anomaly doesn't affect compass. Still they made systematic navigational errors at Kholat Syakhl. They navigated too much left and ended high up near the top when they should go right through the pass. At night they navigated too much left and ended to cedar, instead of the storage.

    "Aleksander Alekseenkov, a researcher of the tragedy from Moscow, told about this during the annual Dyatlov group conference in Yekaterinburg, February 2, 2021. For many years in a row, twice a year (in summer and winter), he traveled to the Dyatlov Pass to conduct various experiments. "My expectations were justified: a magnetic anomaly was discovered a few hundred meters from the tent site, - said Aleksander Alekseenkov. - The gradient (spread) of the measurement was from several units to several tens of units, and in that place - right up to 1700 units, that is, the difference is several orders of magnitude.""

    To me going to cedar instead of the storage is even greater mystery than reason to leave tent without proper clothing.

    Interesting!!!!
    -Ren

    March 30, 2021, 09:50:15 AM
    Reply #57

    trekker

    Guest
    Their compasses were not so realiable. Do we have copies of photographs of their maps? How good and realiable the maps we? Did they have radio receiver for weather forecast or did they had barometer to forecast weather fronts and closing storms or were they almost blind in respect to possible storm fronts (ofc you can forecast something just looking at the sky)?
    « Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 10:07:39 AM by trekker »

    March 30, 2021, 12:01:06 PM
    Reply #58

    trekker

    Guest
    And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.

    Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.

    I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.

    How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.

    I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.

    An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass.  Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there.  Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!!  If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?

    Yes, I knew that but was freaking out when I see this, 1700 units at the tent. If the units are milliradians, that would be over 90 degrees. But when looked closely, units are not related to angles and magnetic anomaly doesn't affect compass. Still they made systematic navigational errors at Kholat Syakhl. They navigated too much left and ended high up near the top when they should go right through the pass. At night they navigated too much left and ended to cedar, instead of the storage.

    "Aleksander Alekseenkov, a researcher of the tragedy from Moscow, told about this during the annual Dyatlov group conference in Yekaterinburg, February 2, 2021. For many years in a row, twice a year (in summer and winter), he traveled to the Dyatlov Pass to conduct various experiments. "My expectations were justified: a magnetic anomaly was discovered a few hundred meters from the tent site, - said Aleksander Alekseenkov. - The gradient (spread) of the measurement was from several units to several tens of units, and in that place - right up to 1700 units, that is, the difference is several orders of magnitude.""

    To me going to cedar instead of the storage is even greater mystery than reason to leave tent without proper clothing.

    Interesting!!!!

    Their last leg was possibly first they had to rely on instrument navigation only without visibility. Previous days they followed rivers, streams and terrain contours in relatively good visibility. If those last picture are genuine, they had poor visibility and so it was no wonder they missed Dyatlov pass and ended high up in the mountain. They wouldn't have done that in good visibility even with malfuctioning compasses. I bet they didn't even know their exact location when they put up tent. Night descent from top was kind of instrumental navigation also because of darkness. So in the big picture those last photographs and end results are plausibly matching and there is no need to assume any outside threat, conspiracy, murder or staging of the tent. All was due to poor judgement and wrong decisions. To be sure they should have descent back to labaz when they got caught by storm and poor visibility.
    « Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 12:08:08 PM by trekker »

    April 02, 2021, 03:25:27 PM
    Reply #59
    Offline

    bergertime


    Keep in mind in all of this it's the middle of the night,  very windy and snowy, visibility is very poor.  you have three injured and you know you need to get to the woods where you have supplies asap.  You are only going to take what you need.  You can also come back the following day to get the rest, but to survive you must make it to the storage.  This theory makes a lot of sense.  The whole objective once out of the tent was not to get stuff out of the tent but to get to the storage to safety.  I would present this, if this snow bank did in fact fall on the tent injuring some and forcing people to cut themselves out, don't you imagine it would play out very similar to what happened.  The amount of snow on the tent when searchers find it is no big deal, it has mostly blown away.