March 29, 2024, 05:36:01 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by gunmat on March 26, 2024, 05:42:21 PM »
I will comment on this, surely, in full extent. When I get the time.Seems nobody here have a real understanding of avalanche. Be my guest when I comment on this. The lecture  will be gratis. What G&P has published is two publications, talking about very old knowledge about avalanche, as if it was a "new Scientific" theory. The main part of their theory is something I learnee very well 30 years ago when I was working with a construction to protect housing areas against avalanches. It is not science, but very old knowledge based on observations, not on fancy mathematic equations. The only  new in their publications is a mathematic argument claiming an avalanche could be released. But even the mathematic arguments are operated with variables that are unstable.So both their publications are for educational purposes, nothing else. They have nothing to do with the happening in 1959. Stay tuned, atleast for 14 days, I have other things to do.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by Ziljoe on March 26, 2024, 11:26:34 AM »
There would be little or no evidence of an avalanche after 3 weeks. I believe avalanches at 1079 , 5-700 meters along from the tent have been filmed but natural and disappeared quickly.

The variables on what is understood to be an avalanche vary considerably. I don't think the injuries were caused at the tent , even by a snow slip or slide . However I think there's a possibility of them leaving the tent because of some sort of small snow collapse/ slap slide. 

Even for those of us who believe in a snow slab , I think most of , if not all are arguing an avalanche. There is a difference. The difference is that the tent collapsed and those inside divided to exit using a knife, upon exiting , the decision was made to leave the slope and head to the woods. It is at the woods that injuries possibly occurred.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by Axelrod on March 26, 2024, 08:01:15 AM »
From an interview with rescuer Karelin in 2020 (in movie with Teddy and Vietnamka):
He arrived on February 27 at the Dyatlos pass.

[–] 60 years have passed. Are you still wondering what happened there?

[KARELIN:] 61 years have already passed. But the interest does not fade. The state is obliged to give an answer to relatives. The fact that some hypotheses are offered to us makes us smile. Especially from various prosecutors who tell us: “Yes, it’s an avalanche!” Even before this hike, I was caught in an avalanche in winter in Altai. I knew what an avalanche was. I knew what traces there would be from the avalanche. I flew with the first helicopter on February 27 to the place of death. There are absolutely no traces of an avalanche there. No traces!



Из интервью с поисковиком Карелиным в 2020 году (он с 27 февраля был на перевале):

[–] Прошло 60 лет. Вам до сих пор интересно, что там произошло?


[КАРЕЛИН:] Прошёл уже 61 год. А интерес не угасает. Государство обязано дать ответ родственникам. То, что нам предлагают какие-то гипотезы, они вызывают у нас усмешку. Особенно от различных прокурорских деятелей, которые нам говорят: «Да это лавина!» Вот ещё до этого похода я зимой на Алтае попадал в лавину. Я знал, что такое лавина. Я знал, какие следы будут от лавины. Я с первым вертолётом прилетел 27 февраля на место гибели. Никаких следов лавины там совершенно нет. Никаких следов!

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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by GlennM on March 26, 2024, 07:31:56 AM »
Making a theory evidenced by forum data is the de facto method of participation. Explorers like Teddy, contribute materially to the forum through actual research. However, the old saw " the pen is mightier than the sword" is certainly true in our situation. We lean on those first hand accounts in the diaries and mourn what the diaries don't say.

When you think about it, they were pretty good at keeping records, so this unknown compelling force interfered with what should have been a spontaneous entry in any diary.
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General Discussion / Re: A blast from the sky
« Last post by Axelrod on March 25, 2024, 02:10:13 AM »


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General Discussion / Re: A blast from the sky
« Last post by WinterLeia on March 24, 2024, 11:17:42 PM »
I’m not entirely sure what you are talking about. The only clipping of a Tagil Worker’s newspaper article that I could find in the case files is dated February 18, and it starts off as: “At 6:55 of local time yesterday…” And I wouldn’t say it was about a rocket launch, but a celestial phenomenon. Yes, that could be a rocket. But it could also be a meteor or an otherworldly fireball, if you happen to be Lev Ivanov. So maybe I missed something?
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by WinterLeia on March 24, 2024, 03:36:00 PM »
I definitely believe that the answer is somehow probably weather or nature related. I certainly consider a slab avalanche to be much more likely than murder, but it would still be an unusual occurrence that would require the hikers to have  created the conditions that caused it. They even state that and show that photograph, which as far as I’m concerned, shows so little that I do not know how they can tell they’re even setting up the tent and not digging the labaz. I can accept they’re setting up the tent. But it certainly doesn’t prove that they created a slab that came down on them. Furthermore, I’m not even sure if G & P did any field work, other than go out and take a picture of a site two miles away from the tent to prove that a slab avalanche was possible at the tent. Also, G & P evidently, didn’t realize there was a difference between slab avalanches and regular ones, because they took a picture of a site where they can happen naturally to compare to one where the only time in recorded history one happened, ostensibly being February 1/2, 1959, it was due to human intervention. I know that Dr. Borzenkov did do field work, though. And computer models are great. But they don’t take the place of fieldwork. You can make anything happen on a computer if you put the right parameters in. They should match what exists in the real world, though, and the only way you’re going to confirm that is to compare them to the actual scene you’re trying to set up. In addition, they don’t even release the raw data, so other people can run their own models and confirm it. Why? What are they afraid of people finding out?

I don’t having a problem with people endorsing a theory. But the evidence in this case is just too contaminated and too fragmentary to really say that this definitely happened or that definitely happened. It’s even worse because we don’t even know what clues belong. Did the hikers create the footprints or was it the searchers? What did the tent really look like before it was messed with? Could Luda have really walked away with one of her ribs piercing her heart or is that just a medical aberration that happened once or twice?  And I really feel like that no matter how they feel about the theory they should at least acknowledge the weaknesses in it. That they try to prop it up and say that the case is solved is the biggest thing that makes me suspicious of it.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche theory
« Last post by GlennM on March 24, 2024, 12:23:36 PM »
We should consider that for all intents and purposes,  those who put time, energy and expertise into solving the mystery are not trolls.  I always say, " follow the money". If someone stands to cash in from the tragedy, that is suspicious. It is suspicious because of selectivity of the evidence put forward.

I also contend that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Everything about this incident can be put down to weather. There is nothing to indicate it was not. Weather drove them out, Weather trapped them in the woods. Weather froze them returning.That's Occam's Razor. However, weather is not going to sell books.

Avalanches are large scale events. Slab slips and snow bank collapses are not. They are as different as a windy day and a hurricane.

When the forum inquiry started, it is a perfect snapshot of the times. Spacemen, Snowman, falling objects from space, including rocketry, military run amok. These are all 50's and 60's cultural tropes! If the forum began in recent past, we would expect pandemic diseases, ebola type mystery virus, psychological programming as probable causes.
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche experiments from Oleg Taimen, Stas, etc.
« Last post by Axelrod on March 24, 2024, 04:19:24 AM »
I just don’t understand why the avalanche version is initially positioned among other versions as a version devoid of mysticism.

Such a scenario of events, when a deadly avalanche suddenly hits a secluded place, the camera turns out to be placed instead of a pillow, when in a group of 9 people - 3 people are seriously injured, moaning, can hardly walk, it turns out that 6 uninjured are divided into 3 pairs, where two people carry or lead by the arms one seriously injured person (Kolya, Lyuda, Semyon), some get lost on the way down in different places. do not reach the cedar (especially leader of this group), Two people go to look for him but pass by, because of this the fourth person, when falling on the descent, breaks his head with a crack in the skull...

This, you know, is a very mystical version - for some horror movie!
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Я только не понимаю, почему версия лавины изначально позиционируется среди других версий как версия лишённая мистики.

Такой сценарий развития событий, когда в укромном месте вдруг налетает смертоносная лавины, фотоаппарат оказывается подложенным вместо подушки, когда в группе из 9 человек - 3 человека тяжело травмированы, стонут, с трудом могут идти, получается, что 6 не пострадавших разделяются на 3 пары, где вдвоём несут на руках или ведут под руки  одного тяжело травмированного (это Коля, Люда, Семён), некоторые теряются на спуске вниз в разных местах. не доходят до кедра (особенно если это руководитель группы), Двое человек идут его искать но проходят мимо, из-за этого четвёртый человек при падении на спуске разбивает голову с трещиной на черепе

Это, знаете ли, очень мистическая версия, - для какого-нибудь фильма ужасов!
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General Discussion / Re: Avalanche experiments from Oleg Taimen, Stas, etc.
« Last post by Ziljoe on March 23, 2024, 04:30:34 PM »
Your family seems to be highly involved? ....

Just saying...
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