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Author Topic: The tent was near the cedar. There was an attack  (Read 6055 times)

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August 30, 2019, 04:27:02 AM
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gildar


The tent was next to the Cedar. There was an attack. Tried to run away but they caught up and killed. Read more on my YouTube channel Исторический Любитель
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnbics7Bd6yjjt4jJ5DJioQ There are subtitles and can be read with translation.
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August 31, 2019, 12:36:42 PM
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sarapuk

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The tent was next to the Cedar. There was an attack. Tried to run away but they caught up and killed. Read more on my YouTube channel Исторический Любитель
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnbics7Bd6yjjt4jJ5DJioQ There are subtitles and can be read with translation.


Ну, у меня всегда было чувство, что, может быть, у группы Дятлова был своего рода лагерь возле кедрового дерева
DB
 

September 08, 2019, 04:05:12 AM
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gildar


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September 08, 2019, 09:46:15 AM
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gildar


Группа Дятлова поставила палатку возле кедра и там ночевала. Под утро на них напали. Хотели что - то забрать и уйти. Но туристы оказали сопротивление. Завязалась драка и случайно убили Дорошенко. Это всё и решило. Убивали не всех сразу. Последних нашли и убили Золотарева, Дубинину, Тибо - Бриньоля и Колеватова.
Подробнее можно посмотреть на видео. Есть субтитры. Можно переключать на английский.

Dyatlov's group put a tent near a cedar and there spent the night. In the morning they were attacked. They wanted to take something and leave. But the tourists resisted. There was a scuffle and accidentally killed Doroshenko. That settled it. Not all were killed at once. Last found and killed Zolotarev, Dubinin, Thibault - Brignoles and Kolevatova.
More details can be found in the video. There are subtitles. You can switch to English.

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September 08, 2019, 08:10:06 PM
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gildar


Первая версия следствия касалась участия представителей манси. Были проведены допросы. Но потом от этой версии резко отказались безо всяких объяснений.
Я собрал из уголовного дела косвенные доказательства участия в убийстве кого - то из местных. Подробнее можно посмотреть на видео моего канала Ютуб. Есть субтитры и можно переключить на английский

The first version of the investigation concerned the participation of representatives of Muncie. Interrogations were conducted. But then this version was abruptly abandoned without any explanation.
I gathered circumstantial evidence from the criminal case of involvement in the murder of someone from the local. More details can be found on the video of my YouTube channel. There are subtitles and you can switch to English

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September 15, 2019, 07:44:49 AM
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gildar


Group Dyatlov. Riddles group Slobtsova.






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September 18, 2019, 12:12:19 AM
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gildar


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September 26, 2019, 04:30:54 AM
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gildar


Analysis of Ivanov's article " the Mystery of fireballs"2 parts Subtitles
Анализ статьи Иванова "Тайна огненных шаров" 2 части



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October 01, 2019, 10:46:15 PM
Reply #8
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gildar


About the second criminal case and the final conclusions of the investigation

Группа Дятлова. Про второе уголовное дело и итоговые выводы по ведению следствия

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October 07, 2019, 11:04:39 PM
Reply #9
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gildar


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October 10, 2019, 11:08:30 PM
Reply #10
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gildar


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November 18, 2019, 06:40:27 AM
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gildar


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November 18, 2019, 07:53:58 PM
Reply #12
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jarrfan


I have not seen a close up of Zina that would indicate her eye was replaced and sewn shut. Is there a picture other than the ones at the funeral that would show this?
 

November 29, 2019, 01:21:55 AM
Reply #13
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gildar


I have not seen a close up of Zina that would indicate her eye was replaced and sewn shut. Is there a picture other than the ones at the funeral that would show this?

There are no other photos. But I'm sure the eye wasn't sewn up. It was definitely noticeable
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November 29, 2019, 01:24:17 AM
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gildar


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January 16, 2020, 08:17:55 AM
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gildar


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February 27, 2020, 07:12:22 PM
Reply #16
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gildar


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April 06, 2020, 11:29:50 PM
Reply #17
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gildar


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April 07, 2020, 05:48:30 AM
Reply #18
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neni_cesty_zpet


Unfortunately, I dont speak russian.
Does he suggests that there was murder and then the tent was moved to slope, right?

I see absolutely no reason for that, not no mention that murderes would risk being witnessed by native people like Mansis.
Who would murder, for what reason and why move tent?

If the murderers were working for KGB then I'd expect them to take whole group for intensive interrogation or make them vanish without trace.
Not moving the tent to higher altitude, possibly in harsch environment during low visibility at night, spreading corpses nearby.
 

April 07, 2020, 12:44:33 PM
Reply #19
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Jean Daniel Reuss


Help me out here. Gildar's videos are certainly important and interesting but it is really too difficult to understand for a french guy like me because without written text it is not possible to use the copy/paste function,  so you can not use the online automatic translators.

  •  sarapuk : August 31, 2019, 12:36:42 PM         Reply #1
Well, I always had the feeling that maybe Woodpecker's band had some kind of camp near a cedar tree...

    I understand there was an attack.

There was hand to hand fightings. I must also agree with Per Inge Oestmoen,  knocker,  Eduard Tumanov................
I have also found other very good leads to explore on the forum 

  •  Nordlander     Reply #29
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?   March 27, 2019, 08:41:08 PM » 

I don't think it was escapees from a gulag. ...
...Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulagswho remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

 •  Loose}{cannon
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?    Reply #9
« on: March 16, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
The gulags are said to have been disbanded in 1953 shortly after the death of Stalin.  However, it is my understanding that not all gulags were the same.  In other words, there were mentally ill, petty criminals, violent criminals, white collar criminals, political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities.  This is the reason I asked WAB if the logging camp (settlement 41) they stopped at happened to be labor camp. While in 1959 the loggers were a "community" that were there working on their own free will, I am uncertain that was always the case. I have also seen the maps posted above regarding gulag locations and wonder how many released 'detainees' of varying degrees stayed in these locations post 1953, or never left the region in general.   

Food for thought.

  •  Vietnamka
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?    Reply #26
on: March 20, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
  ....  I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, does not matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisoner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.....


  *** In Poland, the situation was more complicated. By the end of the war, a significant proportion of the Polish population were living in a camp of some kind, whether a displaced persons’ camp (Jews, Ukrainians, former Nazi slave laborers), a detention camp (Germans and Volksdeutsche,Poles suspected of not being good communists or not adhering to the Bierut or Gomulka policy), or a prison camp in Siberia.

After 1953, as second-class citizens, deported peoples designated as "special settlers" or ex-zeks were prohibited from holding a variety of jobs, returning to their countries of origin, attending prestigious schools.

The Soviet government feared that people of certain nationalities would act as "fifth column" subversives during the cold or expected war, and took drastic measures to prevent this perceived threat.


 ***  For me the field of possibilities has narrowed and in order to build what I call my scenario N°2, I am in the process of gathering historical, political and psychological arguments.
But obviously no one will be able to come up with absolute incontrovertible proof. One can only propose scenarios with a good degree of probability that are complete and coherent.

I now believe that the murderers were in the special settlement 41.

They were not zeks, prisoners in poor health. They were well-nourished ex-zeks who were almost free except that they were subject to restrictive rules on stay and residence known as "special domestic passport regulations".

Look at the great length of the building,
 
 

there is room in there to accommodate a lot of people. Some people did not want to be photographed with the hikers and stayed inside. Others are far outside.


I read that the record for the Vasaloppet is 90 km covered in 4 hours.
By following exactly a track in the packed snow by the passage of 9 skiers an average chaser should be able to cover 50 km in 9 hours.

Question: Is 50 km the distance from settlement 41 (or North 2) to the tent?

On January 31, 1959 around 4 p.m. Thibeaux-Brignolle turned around and saw a strange shadow moving. He instinctively triggered his camera without taking the time to focus.
 

This is photo N° 17 of one of the ex-zek pursuers who hates all these bastards of young Soviet communists who admire Khrushchev and maybe even Stalin !

To be able to give a complete and coherent explanation of the DPI enigma it is inevitable to imagine some missing unknown parts.
  I will soon send you the rest of my scenario N°2.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

April 10, 2020, 01:18:22 PM
Reply #20
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Help me out here. Gildar's videos are certainly important and interesting but it is really too difficult to understand for a french guy like me because without written text it is not possible to use the copy/paste function,  so you can not use the online automatic translators.


Well if you click on settings in the Youtube Video you can select AUTOMATIC TRANSLATION and your chosen language. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
DB
 

April 10, 2020, 02:02:37 PM
Reply #21
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


Good contribution.  Well done.  Nice video at The Dyatlov Foundation. Interesting that Yuri points out the drawing and description of a woman witness who saw a UFO at Krasnovishersk, describing it has like a cigarette.  Many UFO sightings are of cylindrical objects.

Хороший вклад. Отлично сработано. Хорошее видео в Фонде Дятлова. Интересно, что Юрий указывает на рисунок и описание женщины-свидетельницы, которая видела НЛО в Красновишерске, описывая его как сигарету. Многие наблюдения НЛО имеют цилиндрические объекты.
Изменить сообщение
DB
 

June 19, 2020, 02:46:08 AM
Reply #22
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janeeyre2150


Unfortunately, I dont speak russian.
Does he suggests that there was murder and then the tent was moved to slope, right?

I see absolutely no reason for that, not no mention that murderes would risk being witnessed by native people like Mansis.
Who would murder, for what reason and why move tent?

If the murderers were working for KGB then I'd expect them to take whole group for intensive interrogation or make them vanish without trace.
Not moving the tent to higher altitude, possibly in harsch environment during low visibility at night, spreading corpses nearby.

Or it wasnt the KGB, probably less lower positions or someone that is not related to military, like the Mansi or the people that they have encountered while they are on their way to the mountain.
 

June 19, 2020, 03:00:31 AM
Reply #23
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janeeyre2150


Help me out here. Gildar's videos are certainly important and interesting but it is really too difficult to understand for a french guy like me because without written text it is not possible to use the copy/paste function,  so you can not use the online automatic translators.

  •  sarapuk : August 31, 2019, 12:36:42 PM         Reply #1
Well, I always had the feeling that maybe Woodpecker's band had some kind of camp near a cedar tree...

    I understand there was an attack.

There was hand to hand fightings. I must also agree with Per Inge Oestmoen,  knocker,  Eduard Tumanov................
I have also found other very good leads to explore on the forum 

  •  Nordlander     Reply #29
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?   March 27, 2019, 08:41:08 PM » 

I don't think it was escapees from a gulag. ...
...Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulagswho remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

 •  Loose}{cannon
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?    Reply #9
« on: March 16, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
The gulags are said to have been disbanded in 1953 shortly after the death of Stalin.  However, it is my understanding that not all gulags were the same.  In other words, there were mentally ill, petty criminals, violent criminals, white collar criminals, political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities.  This is the reason I asked WAB if the logging camp (settlement 41) they stopped at happened to be labor camp. While in 1959 the loggers were a "community" that were there working on their own free will, I am uncertain that was always the case. I have also seen the maps posted above regarding gulag locations and wonder how many released 'detainees' of varying degrees stayed in these locations post 1953, or never left the region in general.   

Food for thought.

  •  Vietnamka
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?    Reply #26
on: March 20, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
  ....  I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, does not matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisoner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.....


  *** In Poland, the situation was more complicated. By the end of the war, a significant proportion of the Polish population were living in a camp of some kind, whether a displaced persons’ camp (Jews, Ukrainians, former Nazi slave laborers), a detention camp (Germans and Volksdeutsche,Poles suspected of not being good communists or not adhering to the Bierut or Gomulka policy), or a prison camp in Siberia.

After 1953, as second-class citizens, deported peoples designated as "special settlers" or ex-zeks were prohibited from holding a variety of jobs, returning to their countries of origin, attending prestigious schools.

The Soviet government feared that people of certain nationalities would act as "fifth column" subversives during the cold or expected war, and took drastic measures to prevent this perceived threat.


 ***  For me the field of possibilities has narrowed and in order to build what I call my scenario N°2, I am in the process of gathering historical, political and psychological arguments.
But obviously no one will be able to come up with absolute incontrovertible proof. One can only propose scenarios with a good degree of probability that are complete and coherent.

I now believe that the murderers were in the special settlement 41.

They were not zeks, prisoners in poor health. They were well-nourished ex-zeks who were almost free except that they were subject to restrictive rules on stay and residence known as "special domestic passport regulations".

Look at the great length of the building,
 
 

there is room in there to accommodate a lot of people. Some people did not want to be photographed with the hikers and stayed inside. Others are far outside.


I read that the record for the Vasaloppet is 90 km covered in 4 hours.
By following exactly a track in the packed snow by the passage of 9 skiers an average chaser should be able to cover 50 km in 9 hours.

Question: Is 50 km the distance from settlement 41 (or North 2) to the tent?

On January 31, 1959 around 4 p.m. Thibeaux-Brignolle turned around and saw a strange shadow moving. He instinctively triggered his camera without taking the time to focus.
 

This is photo N° 17 of one of the ex-zek pursuers who hates all these bastards of young Soviet communists who admire Khrushchev and maybe even Stalin !

To be able to give a complete and coherent explanation of the DPI enigma it is inevitable to imagine some missing unknown parts.
  I will soon send you the rest of my scenario N°2.

Tbh, they also came in my mind too, that maybe they were the one who hunted down the hikers but then... what would be the motive? That the hikers are communists?
 

July 17, 2020, 05:55:49 PM
Reply #24
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PROXIUS


So far this theory is very catchy. I have watched couple videos with English auto-translation option but unfortunately auto-translation fails big time and causes difficulties of understanding everything. The story sounds very possible. I always focused on a group of intruders/outsiders caused a fight.

I've been always asking to myself why such experienced hikers would setup the tent in middle of slope and then why the campfire is located too far almost 2km (there are theories points that they attempt to escape from whatever going on and they set the fire to warm up etc.) But I never thought about the possibility of them actually might setup the tent in cedar area which campfire was set.

So if I understood all translations correctly, everything started in the cedar zone. Group of intruders appeared and bullied the ones on watch duty next to campfire. They respond to bully and somehow they end up in a fist to fist fight.

After that I'm a bit lost...

I think during the fight one or couple of them meanwhile bullying the tent as well? And this causes some parts of tent collapses? (I think this also explains the stove and burnt leg situation).
But then? Intruders just disappears? Hide in the woods and wait for them to cut off the tent and run for their lives and then catch them one after other?

The position of all dead bodies is a straight line from woods to bushes and then to slope and this also makes this scenario realistic. They were running up to the hill because human psychology. By the instinct when you have your friends around and your life in danger you would never run into places like into the woods to reduce your visibility from your friends and take the risk to get lost so they were all trying to reach to the slope area so they would see each other and feel safe even though if they knew intruders might see them as well.

But.... Long story short, they got murdered.. WHY would they just carry/drag the tent all the way up to slope? Is it way of their thinking to cover it up? Or create confusion?
If I remember correct, rescuers found the tent was collapsed from middle (as it looks on its picture) but every single item inside was still in order. Murderers fixed things in tent before they leave?

I am very sorry, I'm asking all these and I'm sure Mr. gildar already explained all these in his videos but the auto-translation confuses things even more sometime.
-Kind regards.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 01:53:43 AM by PROXIUS »
 

December 26, 2020, 07:34:31 AM
Reply #25
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gildar


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April 16, 2021, 10:04:51 PM
Reply #26
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RidgeWatcher


So Gildar was right about the tent being by the cedar?
 

April 17, 2021, 05:03:10 PM
Reply #27
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
So Gildar was right about the tent being by the cedar?

He hasnt provided an English Translation.
DB
 

April 17, 2021, 06:44:49 PM
Reply #28
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Manti


I don't get it... if the tent was in the forest and a tree fell on it, why is there a need to do a coverup and like Proxius asks above without receiving an answer, why move the tent and set it up in a different location?

Loggers wouldn't be afraid of being blamed.. there was no logging activity in this area, right? Especially not in the middle of winter, and also it's very easy to determine if the tree had axe / chainsaw marks or not, if not, they aren't to blame so no need for a coverup.

Geologists wouldn't be cutting down trees... about the bomb idea, I assume they would keep track of where they installed bombs (if anywhere), so would be able to provide documents saying where these were, and that there was none anywhere near the tent site... Or if there was, this is something they install and then soon after detonate, right? They wouldn't leave it there for a long time... and if the whole point is to expose ores under the ground, their bomb would create a crater right? That would deposit soil and rocks on top of snow in a large area... not easy to cover up a crater.

So again if they find a tent under a fallen tree, but no crater, they also wouldn't do a coverup.... If they find a crater... that's another matter, but again, what happened to that crater? Unless the "ravine" was a bomb crater?

Military? No suggestion of military involvement, no known military activity in the area, but let's say there is a mishap during an exercise and the group is killed somehow. If this is the case, the military would not help the search by providing aircraft for dropping off student search groups in various places.. Also the bodies would have wounds corresponding to whatever military device was involved in the accident, they wouldn't want the bodies to be found, and setting up the tent on the slope is almost calling for it to be found, so makes no sense in this scenario.


Also, if the tent was in the forest, cutting branches makes sense (they apparently put branches around the tent for whatever reason at previous campsites), but where are these branches found? These are found as the "den floor"... this is not something the hikers would make if the tent was there.. so did the stagers not only move the tent but also create a fake "den floor"? Why? This serves no purpose.. if there were a lot of cut branches and they didn't know how to make these disappear, they could have just put them on the campfire.
 

April 17, 2021, 08:38:11 PM
Reply #29
Offline

Manti


Anyway, I watched this video with auto-translation, it is mostly understandable...

Recommend for everyone to watch it, I held some suspicions and questions about this case for a long time and he raises some of the same points and some other information I haven't heard before.

Here is my very rough summary: he says the group camped near the cedar, Tibo and Semyon were on night watch, sitting by a campfire and filling the stove in the tent with fir branches throughout the night. Then in the morning, they were attacked by unknown attackers. Someone, I didn't understand who, then moved the tent to the slope, threw in all the groups belongings hastily, but didn't have time to move some of the bodies. The search couldn't be delayed further because the families were making a noise... Then the searchers found the tent and all the bodies, in the video a note is shown that has small dashes for each body, and there are 4 dashes in the ravine area and an arrow with a question mark... If I understand correctly Gildar is saying this indicated they were all found, however there was the communist party congress, and the international ice skating competition happening in Sverdlovsk, and to avoid bad publicity they didn't want a huge murder story to circulate, so the worst injured were buried in the ravine area, so the incident can be treated as an accident.

This is from the video not my own ideas. He also raises other interesting points, including saying that Mansi presence is almost certain, the hikers write about following a Mansi trail and someone's testimony, didn't understand who but maybe the forester, says that the chum was made after the incident and also he saw wide ski tracks near the chum, so Gildar is saying Mansi must have been present, not that they attacked the group but they must have seen them and were perhaps the ones to report the incident. If the auto-translation is not wrong, there is also mention of moose tracks. He also talks about the photos taken above the treeline and where these could have been taken (and what areas can be excluded), which is important. He also shows that Mansi trails were not some random hunter following game, but these are regularly traveled routes that were even indicated on maps from that time, although the map he shows is of an area to the south (south-west of Vizhay).


Overall, no speculation about who attacked the hikers or why, I also didn't understand that part very well but maybe he says there could have been internal conflict in the group.

The part I didn't understand at all is about the event 17km from the pass, if someone understands that part please post about that.