Theories Discussion > General Discussion
Survival programs as a resource.
Ziljoe:
Cairngorm Plateau disaster
This disaster has several similarities.
1) The weather changed dramatically
2) One of the group was found crawling up a slope , knees bent almost frozen, hands clenched to get help.
3) Two of the students had got out of their sleeping bags and lay on top of them.
4) Several students were found sheltering in a snow hole/ ditch. (One survived)
5) starting the hike late in the day.
6) The two older members left the students in the snow hole and went to get help as the situation was dire , one collapsed quickly and the other member left them and made the decision that she had to keep moving. ( That must have been a difficult decision and one that makes me think it must have been similar on the slope for Zina. To note, both females seemed to have lasted the longest?)
7) The group split up , twice .
Details and back ground
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairngorm_Plateau_disaster
Two videos below retell the event's ( unfortunately they have music for effect)
https://youtu.be/05T03vfK0-8?si=7Lc0ihs7sJAIDwrf
https://youtu.be/7HQ9vRKN5Es?si=Umxzrza8sO38fUZK
Recent news article below
A survivor of Britain’s worst mountain disaster has recalled the tragedy for the first time ahead of special 50th anniversary memorial services.
https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/remembering-the-children-who-froze-to-death-on-school-trip
Patricia Cameron lost five teenage school friends and their teacher when they froze to death in an unprecedented November storm in the Cairngorms in 1971 during a trip designed to improve their navigation skills.
Survivor recollection below
( has some black and white film )
https://youtu.be/hlCCGPuuRzo?si=iIJ-nBJI3UKWIK8z
At 4000 feet on Saturday, November 20, climbing club members from Edinburgh’s Ainslie Park School split into two groups amid deteriorating weather.
A more experienced party, led by 23-year-old Ben Beattie and including Patricia, headed to the sanctuary of the high-level Curran bothy, where they remained overnight before heading back down the mountain the following day.
But when they reached the safety of Rothiemurchus at 5.30pm on the Sunday, they realised the other group was missing and alerted police in Aviemore.
Mrs Cameron remembers the fierce weather conditions on the way down and recalls the desperation of the children to get back to safety.
“The conditions were appalling, it was a complete white-out,” she said, speaking about the disaster for the first time from her home in Edinburgh.
“It was fine when we left. We got up the chairlift, stopped at the Ptarmigan café, then we left there and got so far up the mountain when it changed.
“Even the following day, coming down was probably more traumatic than going up.”
Led by 21-year-old Catherine Davidson, the less-experienced climbers had attempted to dig a snow hole in freezing, 100mph winds on the Cairngorm Plateau, but were soon engulfed just a few hundred yards short of the shelter.
By the Sunday evening, a major search and rescue operation was underway for the missing climbers and, from the air, a helicopter crew spotted a severely frostbitten Ms Davidson’s bright red jacket as she crawled on her hands and knees.
That sighting led them to discover the bodies of five children and instructor Sheelagh Sunderland, but miraculously, the other survivor from the less experienced group, 15-year-old pupil Raymond Leslie, was pulled free from four feet of snow by an RAF rescuer using an avalanche pole for the first time.
Marty Rowe, who was part of the RAF Kinloss Mountain Rescue Team, recalled: “We started to dig away the layers of snow and the young lad was lying in a slight ditch, which probably saved his life.
The snow had closed over him and insulated him a wee bit. As we were digging, we saw slight movement of his limbs and thought ‘this guy’s alive’.”
The disaster led to considerable debate about the value of mountain bothies. While experienced climbers credited the huts with saving lives, others claimed they had tempted the less well prepared onto the hills.
A fatal accident inquiry found no one was to blame, but led to the demolition of two high-level bothies and sparked an overhaul into the training and safety of children taking part in outdoor pursuits.
Looking back now, Mrs Cameron doesn’t know if the trip was poorly planned.
Ziljoe:
Cutting saplings/branches for the den, can it be done?
The following bushcraft videos give examples on how to cut small trees with only a knife.
https://youtu.be/saFam8Tus_M?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/wWnMwffGpqA?si=4mnyQz_UEyk1lYsk
One of the hikers had a pen knife in his pocket. A knife sheath was also found without a knife.
Ziljoe:
Walking without shoes or boots
Can people walk when wearing socks ?
The obvious answer is yes they can, there is no argument there, we walk around in our homes wearing socks everyday. If you don't believe me, put some socks on and go for a walk. Did you manage?
Can people walk on snow when wearing socks ?
Again we can work this out... people can! , No surprises so far .
Can people walk on snow , wearing only socks for a reasonable length of time ?
This is more tricky to answer, snow, socks and time , what about heat loss!
Luckily , some of the human race have done this walking in snow with socks for us. oddly enough, not all in connection with the Dyatlov pass but from survival perspectives.
This video below is one of my favourites , the guy actually puts his socks in water first , then walks in the snow. He states it's -25c , walks for about 15 minutes in his backyard explaining the sensations. Only 2 pairs of wool socks . We can note the build up of snow on the sock. See the end result? .
https://youtu.be/WrdSAzOalQM?si=hXwPOSQ8qax7eXCf
Below is a video of a woman running through woods at -12c in the snow wearing socks. It looks like 30 minute workout. She states no harm to the feet. Again , socks ,2-3
https://youtu.be/009ALVRMUzg?si=MjMCkLoMWm7ES3y-
Lastly, we have the experiment film of the researchers on the actual slope of the hikers. Walking from tent to ceder.
https://youtu.be/FAuxkkISqmI?si=Wicl1m9o0pl2dCwY
amashilu:
All research is helpful to this case and adds to our set of references which may one day help to solve this mystery. The "feet" question is one of the biggest! I appreciate reading what you have uncovered about the socks and feet. While I agree that any one of the hikers could have run through snow and over rocks and come out with pristine socks, my big stumbling block here is that the odds are against that happening with all nine of them.
Ziljoe:
--- Quote from: amashilu on January 12, 2024, 04:51:17 AM ---All research is helpful to this case and adds to our set of references which may one day help to solve this mystery. The "feet" question is one of the biggest! I appreciate reading what you have uncovered about the socks and feet. While I agree that any one of the hikers could have run through snow and over rocks and come out with pristine socks, my big stumbling block here is that the odds are against that happening with all nine of them.
--- End quote ---
Thanks amashilu
The following is from Yuri Yudin , written in his diaries at home.
"The legs are bare, not damaged, not torn to blood (1.85 km through the snow and stones and the socks are intact!), and then so much work by the fire!"
Some things to note. Yuri Yudin was never at the scene at the time. He was there in 2008 I believe , when there was no snow. The bare legs are damaged and socks are torn and not intact.
We can ask what is going on in this small piece of dialogue. Is Yudin writing from looking at the black and white photos or the autopsy photos. Has he read someone else's book that said their were no injuries or damaged socks?. Is it from memory of what he thought he saw at the mortuary? .
We can see the slope is mostly covered with snow, although some parts of the slope are quite rocky underneath , there is a lot of snow on top . We know that the snow was deeper on the slope in some parts before the searcher's found the tent, that's a fact. We can see that snow has little impact on socks.
However, I would expect damage to the socks around the shallow snow under the likes of the ceder tree.
Here's quotes from the two Yuri's autopsy's found under the ceder tree.
DOROSHENKO Yuri Alekseevich
On the left foot, there are two pairs of light-brown knitted socks torn in the back of the foot and in the ankle joint and a white woolen sock with a reinforced heel; on a white sock there is a 2 x 5 cm dark-brown burnt area in the forefoot around the toe. On the right foot, there are the remains of the cotton sock with an elastic band. This sock is the same color as the one on the left foot. There is also a white woolen sock.
KRIVONISCHENKO Georgiy Alekseevich
The bottom left half of the long underwear is missing up to the knee; the edge of the tear is uneven and charred. Under the long underwear are blue 2-knit satin shorts. On the left leg is a torn cotton sock, the edges of which are burned.
Lyudmila Aleksandrovna Dubinina
On the left leg there is a torn grey woolen sock. On both legs there are torn blue cotton socks with grey wool machine-knitted socks under them
Aleksander Kolevatov
On the feet are dirty white home-knitted wool socks, parts of which are burned, and brown cotton socks. On the left leg there are three brown cotton socks with a gauze bandage underneath them at the ankle joint
Is too much faith being put on what Yuri Yudin says? Has Yudin been misquoted?
I can only conclude that it is not impossible to walk to the ceder in socks , feet will not instantly freeze.
Damage to the hikers socks has occurred, this is most likely due to the wooded area , softer, more shallow snow. Also, there seems to be a strong connection with charred/burnt socks, we know there was a fire.
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