Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?
I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.
However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.
These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us.
But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.
The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.
I agree with you. Wind can make a strange sound, that's for sure. But make you feel so uncomfortable that you leave your tent only in underwear when it is -20 degree ... I can't imagine.
Beyond this: I never heard about a documented case where infrasound can make you crazy.
And there were so many people on Kholat Syakhl since the accident, and never ever something similar happened.
And further even if there would be infrasound, not all hiker would react to it in the same kind. No, it must be a real danger, as an avalanche, a burning stove, mansi hunter, even a bomb or a rocket.
What I find strange is, that Donnie Eichar favorites this theory. I mean he was personally on that mountain, met with real persons as Yuri Yudin and he is surely one of the experts of the case. And then he comes with the infrasound theory that is in my opinion so unlikely.
The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.
The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)
The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.
The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)
Infrasound is not a physical threat of the highest order.
It may influence people's mental state.
But to hypothesize that it can make nine people out of nine flee their tent and into the Siberian winter night and not return to the tent is quite a stretch.
Infrasound couid not be the reason why all nine perished. It is simply impossible.
Observations by meteorology at the time disproves the theory that the wind was strong enough as to create any such effect.
More importantly, the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group members point unmistakably to all of them being murdered by humans attacking them.
Only Igor Dyatlov would seem to have truly died from hypothermia, all the others showed various degrees of injuries that can only have resulted from an attack.
The members of the Dyatlov group became the victims of a very intelligent attack, where they all were lined up after they were forced out from the tent - and then they moved away from the tent in a way that strongly suggested that they were forced to walk.
They were not fleeing in panic from the tent, the tracks clearly show that.
Still, even if there was no panic only one had boots on and none of the victims had proper winter gloves. If they had fled in a confused mental state with panic and disorder, the tracks would have shown that.
All available evidence strongly suggests that the attackers mercilessly calculated that forcing the nine people out in the winter without proper protection of hands and feet would lead to their death, and so they made sure that their hands and feet were unprotected.
However, according to the weather reports at the time, the temperature this night in the relevant area was no colder than -18-25C, and so the Dyatlov group members did not die as soon as expected.
The attackers must have followed them after some time - in order to make sure that they perished. Significantly, the last four who died were those who were relatively better dressed and who also suffered the worst injuries. Their attackers must have judged that these four would be able to survive for several days and perhaps even could escape, so they decided to kill them with strong force.
Rustem Slobodin is thought to have been killed first, and this is also as expected. He was very athletic, and would have tried to resist. But his skull was crushed, and he was left unconscious in the snow and died after some time. It is not possible that the damage to his head could have been caused by him falling to the ground.
Neither infrasound nor any other atmospheric phenomena can fight with people, such phenomena cannot break skulls, necks and rib cages.
There is no possibility that the injuries documented could be caused by falls, because the ravine was not deep enough or sufficiently precipitous and the injuries would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies.
It is extremely suspicious that some investigators even mentioned a fall as a possible cause, and it is clear that the Soviet authorities did not want the investigators to draw the only sensible conclusion that this tragedy was a case of a cold blooded murder with planned intent to kill all nine hikers.
The severe damage to the rib cage of two of the victims is particularly indicative of a murderous attack. It is probable that the damage was done with elbow strikes to both sides of the rib cage, a technique which is well known from close combat techniques.
No superhuman strength and no bomb blast is required to crush a person's rib cage.
The Dyatlov group was murdered. The great mystery lies in why it was done and who did it. That question can only be answered if and when some of those who know tell the truth of what happened.
Not my thing. But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?The fall takes about 900ms and downward velocity ~ 9 m/s. C'est la vie
Ah..... How about the unknown equation?Why wouldn't there be a meter of snow on top of all rocks? With a meter of snow present, one might still surely die, but with less amazing injury damage.
How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Ah..... How about the unknown equation?Why wouldn't there be a meter of snow on top of all rocks? With a meter of snow present, one might still surely die, but with less amazing injury damage.
How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Proofs do not arise from stubbornness.
Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture contiguous with a ruinous temporal fracture. Such damage is not easily explained.
A 3m fall onto rock is very unlikely cause.
Coral Hull saying demon-possessed Yeti just as likely.
Physics is physics, no?
Also if people fly for an irrational reason, would they not fly in an irrational manner?
In literature on ring fractures, they require a peak force of at least 4400N (440 kg or 1000 lb.) and require 14J of energy to complete damage.
American race car driver died of ring fracture upon striking massive object at about 300 kph. Earnhardt. Perhaps 200W of power to base of skull in 100 ms.
These are huge releases of energy. That doesn't include temporal skull damage.
Not my thing. But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?The fall takes about 900ms and downward velocity ~ 9 m/s. Total velocity ~ 9.5 m/s if runs 1.5 m/s. There's enough energy, 100J. But not enough force. A full header, skull only impact onto a stand-alone steel post, might be enough force. But ring fxs don't happen that way. The WHOLE BODY must travel no more than 8cm after impact.
Ah..... How about the unknown equation?
How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
It is a fact that wind can have an influence on the mind of both human and animals. T
...........................
. I tried it as I tried the infrasound videos but ... no effect. lol2
A simple rule of thumb for falling body that starts from rest and comes to rest is that the kinetic energy at start and finish is zero, as there is zero velocity.QuoteI have not understood this post about. Please write more detaisl. All scheme of mechanic damage is a bit another. But it I will tell only when there will be a detailed description of your scheme.Energy of 100 J can be enough for any trauma. Process is dynamic, therefore if give time of process deceleration equal 20 ms (2 ms is typical unit for processes in the biomechanic of blow to body person) force will be very big.
Do you can tell about these of 8 sm more in detail? What does it mean and why?
Whence is received figure 4 metrs I has not understood? But it is a question to Loose} {Cannon.
Ah..... How about the unknown equation?
How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
I have shown condition of snow in a photo in the previous post. However it is level of snow much more than was in 1959. In a photo from a place of searches it is visible that slopes above were almost completely without snow.
(https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1804/91/1bb7fecb2001t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1804/91/1bb7fecb2001.jpg)
(https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1804/4a/d35b2bb2d2d7t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1804/4a/d35b2bb2d2d7.jpg)
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.
You Got That Right. Good call!
100% Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture from hitting head on rock peak. Such damage is not easily explained otherwise. A 3m fall onto rock is very considerable cause.INDUBITABLY
clap1
Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?
Yes, such can be under certain conditions. In it specify some researches, in particular works of such researchers as W Gavro (France), Tarozy (Austria) and some other.I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.
There is such hypothesis. I think it is rather probable.However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.
Why?
There are researches in psychophysiology which confirm that if there are influences on a brain of the person in a resonance with brain biorhythms (scale - or delta - a range) such effect is possible quite. The infrasound which influences the person with certain frequency and intensity level, creates accumulation of a certain dose of absorption then there is an effect reminding "panic". It is called the changed Altered state of consciousness (ASС). Such medical researches too exist.
As mathematicians speak: on a place there are all necessary and sufficient conditions for such event.These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us.
Nature influence on the person is so great that it does not depend on its skills and desire and I.Q. Possibilities of the person to resist of the nature are limited. They are not infinite.But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.
It is possible provided that their actions are made reasonably. However ASC it not so non-realised actions, and finish submission to instincts. In other words, it is sequence of behaviour which is caused by psychology - "panic" condition - an involuntary condition of fear - desire to escape from at place where there is a false sensation of danger.The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.
The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)
Proofs do not arise from stubbornness.
Non acceptance of proofs always is a persistence direct consequence.Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture contiguous with a ruinous temporal fracture. Such damage is not easily explained.
If we speak about crisis of basis of the skull (CBS) which was described by the forensic scientist it is easy to explain it. On a position of biomechanics of a skull at blow.
CBS this accompanying destruction at that trauma that was at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles (getting wound of a skull in the right temporal area). The reason that the arch of a skull and the basis it is uniform mechanical system. Therefore at loading on the skull arch, the skull basis too it is deformed. If the module of elasticity of the arch of a skull on an order (in 10 times) is more than at the skull basis deformation of the basis of a skull will be in 10 times more too.
Presence of a through breach of the arch of a skull testifies that deformation of the basis of a skull will be more than critical and there will be a destruction of the basis of a skull.
Energy required for such destruction is small - approximately 35 … 40 J. It is equivalent to head falling (the weight is equal about 5 kg) from height about 0,8 m.
It is all is simple enough laws which are studied in the biomechanic of a head as it is physical model.
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.A 3m fall onto rock is very unlikely cause.
For this purpose, what to receive such trauma it would be not necessary to fall from height of 3 m. the height of own growth and a sharp stone Suffices. For example, for Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles this stone was 2 х 3,5 sm ( 0.78 x 1.3 in) it see had a pyramid-shaped the form. Such as the expert in forensic medicine has described a getting wound at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles. In addition there was still a developed area of crisis 7 х 9 sm ( 2.75 x 3.5 in) which is secondary at a breach of a temporal part of a skull.
Such trauma was easy for developed on the third line of a stone ridge. As is in this picture:
(https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1804/1f/9bfb3bbf89bet.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1804/1f/9bfb3bbf89be.jpg)
On this image show the quantity of snow more than was in 1959.Coral Hull saying demon-possessed Yeti just as likely.
Yeti is not my basis. I am technical physicist, instead of cryptozoologist.
And with “the black climber” I was not in time yet will get acquainted still too. grin1Physics is physics, no?
What exactly is not pleasant to you in such section of technical physics, how is biomechanic?Also if people fly for an irrational reason, would they not fly in an irrational manner?
It is abstractly possible to tell everything. Let better speak for the obvious reasons, but with sufficient degree of knowledge in a conversation theme.
Dont get me wrong.... I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle? How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?
We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.
- What is the likelihood that Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles fell and hit a rock with the side of his head with the resultant injuries?
There was not a true precipice at the spot, it was a relatively steep slope.
Even if it is physically possible that the head might hit a rock if the person rolled extremely fast against it, such a scenario is far less likely than the more probable scenario that he was forcefully hit on his head with killing intent by another human being.
From the start of the investigation in 1959, the authorities evidently tried to conceal the fact of murder. I think it is time to honestly re-examine all the old and new evidence, and accept that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no mere accident. We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened.
Dont get me wrong.... I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle? How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?
We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.
Dont get me wrong.... I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle? How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?
We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.
I fully agree with the above, it may have been be any kind of hard object. We cannot know with certainty what it was.
It is quite a stretch to state that nine resourceful people were scared by the alleged sonic phenomenon to the point that they even cut open their own tent and went out in the cold.
It should also be mentioned that there is no proof whatsoever that the cutting of the tent were done by the hikers. Whether or not the tent was cut from the inside - and that is highly uncertain because there was no proper scientific investigation of the tent and its cuts - there is no reason to believe that the students did it.
The assumption that the students cut their tent is a good example of an unfounded and rash conclusion.
As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.
In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.
There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.
From the start of the investigation in 1959, the authorities evidently tried to conceal the fact of murder. I think it is time to honestly re-examine all the old and new evidence, and accept that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no mere accident. We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened.
Before speak about murder, it is necessary have the fact of such event. If who that is simple not a condition to explain that he does not understand, he starts to invent other reasons. Which on a place of events are simply impossible. If you have visited on a place in the winter and is simple walk on a slope in the afternoon, bat many inventions would simply be dissolved. And there events occurred at night (in a night-time), at very bad weather and in a condition of altered state of consciousness (ASС).
If you speak: " We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened." (c), it quite right. Only they should not that who has thought up that, and that has occurred actually.
As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.
I ask one more time: why you so consider? Such negation needs a rigid substantiation. Last time you have not answered to this question.In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.
There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.
The information from meteorological stations which are in several tens (or hundreds) kilometres (or miles) from a place of events is big error to take. Besides, the place of events is in a mountainous part, and without wood. And meteorological stations are on plain, in a low part of district and in wood.
In addition it is necessary to notice that the Ural mountains on this site are border of two different climatic zones.
Before the Ural mountains influence of a current Gulf Stream in the northwest is felt. It is more damp and warm zone.
Behind the Ural mountains there is essentially colder zone which has influence from the Central Arctic regions. Collision of sites of weather leads to that it is a zone where are available very strong a wind. To 30 m/s at a difference of temperatures (and an arrangement of zones of a cyclone and an anticyclone) with very big gradient. We well observed it in January 2015 when on a place of events there were a wind even more than 30 m/s, and according to all specified meteorological stations of speed of a wind did not exceed 10 m/s.
•Look at video of similar winds in https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing . The video shooting was spent at all at the strongest winds …
There more than enough conditions for occurrence infrasound.
It is quite a stretch to state that nine resourceful people were scared by the alleged sonic phenomenon to the point that they even cut open their own tent and went out in the cold. It should also be mentioned that there is no proof whatsoever that the cutting of the tent were done by the hikers. Whether or not the tent was cut from the inside - and that is highly uncertain because there was no proper scientific investigation of the tent and its cuts - there is no reason to believe that the students did it. The assumption that the students cut their tent is a good example of an unfounded and rash conclusion.
As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.
In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.
There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.
I agree fully with you on one aspect in the above: Because of the typography in mountain areas and in particular when there is a large massive where air is coming in from several directions with different temperatur and humidity, the weather can often change very fast and unpredictably. You are wholly correct in that observation.
However, the significance of the reports from the surrounding areas is that even if it is theoretically possible that there may locally have been a stormy weather in the Dyatlov pass area that possibility is not supported by the reports from the weather stations. So where does that leave us? There is a "might be" here, but the trouble is that the alleged storm is not indicated by any sources or traces. On the contrary, the conditions around the tent tend to indicate that there had been absolutely no snowstorm on February 1. Indications would rather point to the opposite: If there had been a violent storm on that evening, the footprints from the nine students down the slope towards the forest area would certainly have been erased that same night.
Further: I do not mean to be rude, but it has to be said that the videos presented above are not evidence of anything. These videos merely show us what it looks like in a particular type of weather. It does not prove what conditions were present at the Dyatlov pass on the evening when the students perished. It does not remotely prove that infrasound was the reason why the students left their tent.
Ever since 1959, official versions of what happened have maintained that the tragedy was due to accidents and "a series of mistakes by Igor Dyatlov," and it has been confirmed that it was signalled from above that the conclusion of the incomplete investigation should be that it was all an accident and that nothing else than natural forces were involved. Today we have theories about man-eating yetis, ball lighting, UFOs landing and killing the students, nonexistent fires and smoke in the tent, infrasound effects that supposedly scared nine adult people out of a tent and made them flee a mile away to their death in the cold, and even fighting between the students themselves has been proposed as the cause of the tragedy. It is perhaps time to try a more analytic and realistic approach, in accordance with the ideals and demands of fact-based science.
Whenever extraordinary claims are made, these claims must be backed up by some extraordinary strong evidence. To claim that infrasound was the culprit, and to further claim that the students were so mentally disordered with an altered consciousness that they cut their own tent and fled far away to a certain death, must be considered extraordinary claims. By the way: Even if the tent was cut from the inside, it still does not tell us who did the cutting. We do not know who cut the tent, and we do not know that the students left the tent throught the cuts either. This is just one of many unwarranted assumptions.
To finally claim that all the subsequent injuries (which were all consistent with a lethal attack by humans with evil intent) were due to an extremely improbable series of sub-events that by coincidence worked together to take nine lives in the course of a few hours, is so extraordinary that it exceeds the border of the realistic by quite some margin. Like ball lighting, the infrasound theory certainly makes a good history, but with risk of being offensive I can only say that the infrasound theory not only lacks substantial evidence. The hypothetical course of events that has to accompany the infrasound theory is neither indicated nor at all probable, and this is also shown by all the fantastic explanations that have to be invoked to dismiss the evidence that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was an act of violence amounting to merciless homicide.
Hello. WAB, I`ve red your discussion with mr. Per, and both of you give interesting food for thought.
I find your opinion and explanation for the Dyatlov tragedy very interesting. To be honest, ever since I am familiar with the case, I have never thought about the actual biomechanics of physical injuries and the probability of how and when the Dyatlov group suffered their injuries. As far as I can tell from your words, it is highly unlikely, that the group died because of murder from other human beings, and the most probable reason is the impact of Infrasound and the subsequent effecst and misfortunate chain of events.
What is your opinion about the investigation itself?
Why the people who were involved in the investigation had to sign documents for 25 years of non-disclouser of information about the incident,
and the area was closed for several years afterwards?
I really want to know what are your thoughts.
Greetings from Bulgaria!
How does a noise account for all the bodily injuries.
Hello, Морски !Hello. WAB, I`ve red your discussion with mr. Per, and both of you give interesting food for thought.
I find your opinion and explanation for the Dyatlov tragedy very interesting. To be honest, ever since I am familiar with the case, I have never thought about the actual biomechanics of physical injuries and the probability of how and when the Dyatlov group suffered their injuries. As far as I can tell from your words, it is highly unlikely, that the group died because of murder from other human beings, and the most probable reason is the impact of Infrasound and the subsequent effecst and misfortunate chain of events.
For me very interesting your understanding of a problem and opinion about it. Really hypothesis about Infrasound gives the chance without everyone superfluous essence explain all from the beginning to the end absolutely natural order. You have written about it too. Only it is necessary understand that except Infrasound and its actions there was one more considerable factor - a cold complicated by a wind in the top part of a slope. And still it is necessary to understand that all occurred in a night-time as there in January and the beginning of February light day proceeds only 6 … 6,5 hours. In the rest of time it is dark. The moon that day should ascend only after 4 hours АМ.
The question of get traumas too not so is combined, if it do to estimate on base of biomechanics. If you can read in Russian, I can send the reference to the big article about these traumas. For a long time ago I freely read Bulgarian magazine « Радио, Телевизия, Електроника », and I would not have problems with that that all to understand very well. I hope as in Bulgaria still can read on Russian and understand all correctly.
I will answer on your questions:What is your opinion about the investigation itself?
I have not so well understood a question. What do you mean? A criminal investigation?
Then I can tell that it is spent well enough. I can compare that was in many similar cases (I have an expert about such 20 cases), from them I dealt with investigation in 10 … 12. There was much more admissions of the necessary information and investigation defects. All concern in specific conditions and unprepared of city inspectors to work in mountains and on a frost. Because such cases are very unique. Them are units or some tens on all world during more than 50 years.Why the people who were involved in the investigation had to sign documents for 25 years of non-disclouser of information about the incident,
It is one of widespread myths in this history. Anybody from searchers of such subscription did not give. Because anybody did not demand it from them. I have personally interrogated many person from teams of searchers (Bartolomey, Karelin, Brusnitsin, Slobtsov, Sharavin, Mohov, Askinadzi, Koptelov …) and Yury Yudin. Anybody from them such subscription did not give also it at anybody did not demand. In criminal case there are 2 subscriptions (Maslennikov and Yarovoy), but these are subscriptions only about nondisclosure of secrecy of the investigation for a while when it went. There articles of the law which it concern are accurately specified.and the area was closed for several years afterwards?
It too a myth on one half. How you represent possibility close not occupied territory of a taiga size is about Belgium? There have simply forbidden to direct travellers. But only officially. It influenced only that for these travel they could not raise sports degree. And it is all. The one who wanted to pass there without any official registration of travel, that could go there freely. Then (from March till September 1959), some groups of travellers there went.I really want to know what are your thoughts.
It is very indistinct concept of question. If you formulate what that concrete questions I will try to answer them. Thanks for attention to my modest opinion.Greetings from Bulgaria!
Big gratitude for it too. I was not travel to Bulgaria, unfortunately. It has not turned out. And very much I regret.
PS. I have problems with access to the Internet, therefore ask to excuse that I answer not so quickly and in detail. I can come on this site seldom.
Actually maybe there was a noise , the noise of an animal of some kind, but not infrasound.
Actually maybe there was a noise , the noise of an animal of some kind, but not infrasound.
I see. Turns out, that two of the many very important (for me) questions (1.The 25 year non-diclousre; 2.The closed area) have a more reasonable explanation. Thank you for claryfying these questions for me. Your opinion and answers are helping to put some order in the chaos of the incident. Still, the more I read from the documents and various opinions, the more questions I have. Same as all of us, I believe.
By the way, you can probably still read in bulgarian with no problem. Our languages, grammar and spelling are similar to a certain extent.
I can read and comprehend russian very well, but my speaking is... Terrible, or at least amusing for native russian speakers.
Anyway, it is never to late to come go Bulgaria. Probably it is easier then ever before.
Cheers!
And clearly you have no idea exactly who Vladimir (WAB) is either.... Here's a hint: it is not advisable to dismiss his extensive notes/work/personal experience/actual photographic evidence from his MANY trips to the Dyatlov Pass in favor of a 2014 mockumentary by the Discovery Channel about a mythical creature known as the Yeti. neg1
But that's none of my business....
Valera Anjamov at a sign where his father (it was the participant of searches of Dyatlov group) has extracted a bear in 1958. These are the same signs which were drawn by Zina in the diary. Also be on a photo of Krivonishchenko and Kolevatov. Their decoding me managed to be received in 2008 at brother Valera - Roman. Valera has ended the Moscow university of cinematography as the operator of documentary cinema, then was assistant the deputy Hunts and Mansi region. Now he lives in settlement Ushma because there lives his old mother.
Bears probably hear in the ultrasonic range of 16-20 megahertz.
"The normal range of human hearing includes sound frequencies from about 20 to about 20,000 waves, or cycles, per second." That is ; about 20 HZ [ HERTZ ] to 20 KHZ [ KILOHERTZ ].
Ultrasound waves have a frequency above the normal range of human hearing. That is ; above 20 KHZ [ KILOHERTZ ].
Infrasound has a frequency below normal hearing. That is ; below 20 HZ [ HERTZ ].
Valera Anjamov at a sign .........
Dear WAB, very interesting material. It may not be the most fitting thread, but because you mentioned this here, could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you write that his father extracted a bear in 1958? Was there one? Do these signs indicate the presence of a bear in Mansi notation?
I see. Turns out, that two of the many very important (for me) questions (1.The 25 year non-diclousre; 2.The closed area) have a more reasonable explanation. Thank you for claryfying these questions for me. Your opinion and answers are helping to put some order in the chaos of the incident. Still, the more I read from the documents and various opinions, the more questions I have. Same as all of us, I believe.
Certainly, it is possible to explain all quite usually, without presence superfluous essence. However it not so is interesting to some people. They should decide, what they though to receive? Or they want to write the scenario for a detective film (as a variant - for a horror film) or they want to find out that there was actually?.By the way, you can probably still read in bulgarian with no problem. Our languages, grammar and spelling are similar to a certain extent.
I hope that it is valid so. However while I do not have that interesting on the Bulgarian. That magazine has ceased to be published for a long time already. Or it does not arrive to them to our country …I can read and comprehend russian very well, but my speaking is... Terrible, or at least amusing for native russian speakers.
It is not important. Any Russian person who wants understand that speak on the Bulgarian is able to do it always in 80 % of cases. I mean a natural dictionary fuse. For a long time already (some tens years) I communicate with my Ukrainian friends everyone in the language. It occurs to those who prefers to speak in an Ukrainian. And we speak and we understand each other absolutely freely without any inconveniences.
So it is not necessary to hesitate to speak, very big percent of our people will quite friendly apprehend about what they speak. If that does not understand that - means will ask again or will specify.
And here with gestures " yes " also " not ", here there can be comical situations. They is at us opposite. :)Anyway, it is never to late to come go Bulgaria. Probably it is easier then ever before.
Thanks. Unfortunately now at me it is too much difficulties what to go where that, besides, that is necessary on emergency.Cheers!
It is a toast?
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Yes, I am sticking to more reasonable explanations for what might have happened back in 1959 as well. It makes sense to try every natural explanation first, before considering legendary creatures or alien forces. Anyway.
Радио и Телевизия ceased to exist around 2002 if I remember correctly, so thats why wont see it anymore.
About the visit to Bulgaria, I was just saying that it is cheaper and faster to travel nowadays, of course, if you have good reason to do it. wink1
As for the "Cheers" , it is a toast.
Nice to talk to you, sir.
WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz. grin1 Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks
I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc.
So why should they panic if such an event happened ! ?
Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers.
I have passed this message. Very much in vain.WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz. grin1 Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks
I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.
I got it. I had very well-founded suspicions that you try, as at us our speak «дурковать (gurgle - in English)» or (if on slang) « лепить горбатого (throw dust into people’s eyes - in English) ».
Excuse me if I have resulted wrong English termы.
Only it is necessary to continue to do it very carefully (and to put smilies), differently it is possible to pass easily as babbler. Then sensible readers will simply cease to pay attention to you.
I would like to learn, what at you is preparation in section of radio physics and biology of bears?
And as:
1.In what place of a bear there are aerials of these ranges of this radio frequencies? grin1
2.What type these aerials: "Array”, “magnetic loops”, “downhill ray”, "dipole", “Yagi-Uda”, “ Rubber Ducky” ? grin1
3.What sensitivity of receivers and efficiency of transmitters? grin1
4.Modulation of signals there sideband or there is available upper sideband (USB) with lower sideband (LSB) or the are double sidebandamplitude modulation (DSB-AM)? grin1
5.What range of a radio communication in the conditions of mountains, type of what in Northern Ural Mountains? grin1
6.And the most important thing: I would like to learn what system of coding of his signals? grin1
Maybe it all is useful to me at defence against bears at a following exit in that area. grin1
If you do not answer these questions, at you very much an every prospect to receive a rank which I have designated in lines above. grin1
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc.
It is good. Even if they about what knew that, as they can that that to do if there was an irritant which could not allow work well for a brain?So why should they panic if such an event happened ! ?
They did it because influence degree to their brain was above a limit of shipping or possibility of indemnification of this influence.Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers.
At first. These are your desires, instead of their possibilities.
At second. There is a fact of that they are found in different parts of slope. Therefore it is possible to say only that they have met only in that quantity which was when them have found. The rest it is there are your conjectures. All disposition of groups and material evidences say that they did not co-operate after have escaped from tent.
Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.
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The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.
Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.
Whether it has been printed in magazine Areo, signed by James Lindsey and Peter Boghossian?
If so it has turned out casually grin1?
If it not so, I like to learn a source?
Especially me interests, how "accuracy" was defined?
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The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.
What can be more serious than frustration of stability of nervous system or brain functioning?
You can know as any control system when she starts to function on resonant frequency of instability behaves?
If you remember, the Iranian factories on manufacture of nuclear fuel have been put out of action by the harmful program which worked in this way.
Here is a link to one such scientific study of sound / frequencies. http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/7/1116
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I have heard STORIES about the possible use of certain weapons that use SOUND in order to affect people. But all the stories I have heard of have not resulted in the serious injuries or deaths of people.
And such weapons did not exist in 1959.
Any proofs does not exist. That there was that that another, except a case of natural damage. It is thought out by people who cannot understand physics of process of reception of damages under natural conditions.
Proofs are not conversations on theme, and material traces which are a consequence of real actions, instead of thought up.
Besides, they would like to find what that criminal events. So it is more interesting to them to understand this case. But between desires and truth there is a science which is called biomechanics of reception of a trauma. To a natural case detailed consideration of topology of traumas deviates. It is impossible to strike in a ju-jitsu a plane of very big sizes or a narrow superfirm subject of the conic form 3,5 х 2 sm (1,5 х 1 in). It will be surrealism.
To accept or not to accept as obvious to any person, it is subjective opinion. The opinion depends only on desire of the person, instead of from an objective reality.
You persistently do not want to accept a condition and the district characteristic because you them did not see and cannot imagine them.
There are no numerous certificates and, especially, objective data that it was a crime. It simply ideas of people which gravitate to conspirology. I studied this case directly on a place, professionally was engaged in researches in the biomechanic, studied all available documents and talked practically to all participants of events who were live to 2006, any objective certificates was not present. There are very indistinct memoirs which are accompanied by touch of hearings and legends. But no confirmed certificates are present. Many people far from professionals think out any improbable versions which are impossible actually. There is no objective information more. I hope that you understand a difference that what that the person speaks words, and in practice it appears, it not so. It is called as subjective opinion. More often this opinion appears incorrect. As it are takes place in this case.
For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.
Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim.
I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder.
Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.
There is no need to make a great song and dance about "conspirology." To try to discredit other people with such labels is an extremely impolite and above all extremely unscientific way of discussion, and that kind of labeling has no place in a serious discussion.
We need to approach the Dyatlov Pass deaths in a rational and investigative way.
The answer does not lie in the terrain.
The answer does not lie in the infrasound theory, which is perhaps the most far fetched and unrealistic of all the speculative theories there are.
Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.
The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.
I have done a little research on the infrasound and it seems that it is a credible phenomenon. I read that test on several hundred people all at the same time created a negative response in about 20% of the people. I suppose the number of people affected and how significant the response would depend on the magnitude of the infrasound. The effect of infrasound may be rooted in evolution in that animals have been known to flee when they detect it. In natural phenomenon infrasound accompanies major natural disasters such as earthquakes.
The question is was infrasound the reason why the dyatlov group left the tent? I don't think that it's impossible and it's something to consider.
I do think that it's credible that the traumas and deaths after leaving the tent were sustained in a natural way, such as falls into the ravine.
One idea I have recently been considering is that the traumas to those in the ravine were self inflicted. Given that they were freezing to death and probably knew they were going to die, is it possible that they thought that they wanted to end it faster? It's probably not likely, especially if they had a knife to cut branches for the den as they could have found a better way that throwing themselves off the side of the ravine. There are lots of variables
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes. Foxes, birds, rodents etc.
I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group. Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic. I have seen it before. It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it. It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger. I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid. Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave. The cave was dark and we went to the entrance. I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur. It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode. I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance. My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too. They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me. They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill. After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from. I told them I had seen something strange in the cave. One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave. Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book. I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.
In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so. Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts. I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls.
Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:
V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes. Foxes, birds, rodents etc.
I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group. Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic. I have seen it before. It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it. It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger. I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid. Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave. The cave was dark and we went to the entrance. I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur. It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode. I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance. My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too. They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me. They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill. After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from. I told them I had seen something strange in the cave. One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave. Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book. I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.
In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so. Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts. I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls.
Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:
V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.
There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that ! ? I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger. But I doubt that that would have applied in this case. The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes. Foxes, birds, rodents etc.
I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group. Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic. I have seen it before. It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it. It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger. I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid. Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave. The cave was dark and we went to the entrance. I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur. It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode. I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance. My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too. They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me. They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill. After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from. I told them I had seen something strange in the cave. One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave. Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book. I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.
In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so. Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts. I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls.
Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:
V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.
There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that ! ? I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger. But I doubt that that would have applied in this case. The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.
The hyoid bone comment is a bit vague for an autopsy report? What does unusual movement mean? Would expect more specific comments really but suppose that is not going to happen now. Could this also have been damaged in a fall?
For the infrasound and panic flight response. I can relate this possibility to my own experience and knowledge. When I ran from the cave as a child, I was not exposed to sub zero Siberian weather conditions, but if I had been and had been poorly dressed then I went well over a mile before I stopped running. In the conditions on the mountain that night, with the tent as the only means of survival, my fiends and I would have been in big trouble if the event had happened there.
Again in terms of the comment on the chest injuries being related to a car crash, it's a bit vague. A car crash at what speed? A fall f 5m or so would be an impact of about 22 miles/hr.
The question is was infrasound the reason why the dyatlov group left the tent? I don't think that it's impossible and it's something to consider.
I do think that it's credible that the traumas and deaths after leaving the tent were sustained in a natural way, such as falls into the ravine.
My answer written was gone 2 days ago. I should repeat it
For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.
Do not tell obvious nonsense. If you have clung to these conjectures that it unequivocally shows that you do not understand the mechanic. Do not understand at all.
Count please (if you it allows you scientific level) localisation of pressure from «an elbow joint», points of the greatest pressure in edges, and with what speed should strike «an elbow joint». At all without considering possible reaction striking about a substrate and clothes reaction.
Still nobody could cancel Newton's third law.
And if you not in a condition such to make, and it is not necessary to tell the first got to a head (excuse for this word) "thought". It has not something in common with the validity.
Demolition of edges simultaneously from two parties and in those places where they are described by the expert, could be only at reaction with a platform of the big size. Большей than the area of a thorax. If you and it do not understand, in general it is better not to tell anything on this theme.
This direct consequence from mechanics of crises how them describe. If you do not understand it, it is rather a pity that you say wrong words of that you do not have not enough scientific preparation and you tell obvious nonsense.
[....]
Prove you assumption!
That says what it was murder? You can list on points signs and the facts from documents?
Or you consider, what everything about what you do not know are can always be only murder?
You can result nothing in this respect, except conjectures and is weaved any. It is because you do not have real and actual material, and all of you replace only with the imaginations.
But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point.
[....]
Your persuasive attempt by all ways to translate attention from usual accident on murder involuntarily reduces all to conspirology. You do not accept any arguments and calculations in a unique science which can yield result - to the biomechanic, instead of it constantly repeating the same mantra: it was murder! Without resulting any arguments in a substantiation. About that there is no reason and possibility it to make on that place, you start to say that the district here is not necessary. Tell, please, and if it was on the North Pole, it too would be insignificant?
My answer written was gone 2 days ago. I should repeat it
For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.
Do not tell obvious nonsense. If you have clung to these conjectures that it unequivocally shows that you do not understand the mechanic. Do not understand at all.
Count please (if you it allows you scientific level) localisation of pressure from «an elbow joint», points of the greatest pressure in edges, and with what speed should strike «an elbow joint». At all without considering possible reaction striking about a substrate and clothes reaction.
Still nobody could cancel Newton's third law.
And if you not in a condition such to make, and it is not necessary to tell the first got to a head (excuse for this word) "thought". It has not something in common with the validity.
Demolition of edges simultaneously from two parties and in those places where they are described by the expert, could be only at reaction with a platform of the big size. Большей than the area of a thorax. If you and it do not understand, in general it is better not to tell anything on this theme.
This direct consequence from mechanics of crises how them describe. If you do not understand it, it is rather a pity that you say wrong words of that you do not have not enough scientific preparation and you tell obvious nonsense.
[....]
Prove you assumption!
That says what it was murder? You can list on points signs and the facts from documents?
Or you consider, what everything about what you do not know are can always be only murder?
You can result nothing in this respect, except conjectures and is weaved any. It is because you do not have real and actual material, and all of you replace only with the imaginations.
But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point.
[....]
Your persuasive attempt by all ways to translate attention from usual accident on murder involuntarily reduces all to conspirology. You do not accept any arguments and calculations in a unique science which can yield result - to the biomechanic, instead of it constantly repeating the same mantra: it was murder! Without resulting any arguments in a substantiation. About that there is no reason and possibility it to make on that place, you start to say that the district here is not necessary. Tell, please, and if it was on the North Pole, it too would be insignificant?
First: Why all this intense aggression?
Then: Newton's third law only says that for every physical action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sorry, but I have to tell bluntly that there is nothing in Newton's law that contradicts the obvious fact that the injuries found on the nine bodies are all completely consistent with human attack by force. Please refrain from invective, because foul language and accusations of conspiracy thinking only shows that the originator of such language has a rather weak case.
It is true that for every physical action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. These reactions create impacts that lead to injury and death, when force strikes human bodies as was demonstrably the case in the Dyatlov pass tragedy. I must repeat that there is no difficulty for a human trained in close combat to crush rib cages by elbow strikes. The great force of which a trained killer is capable of generating, is more than enough to cause the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov.
Also, let us point out a major error in reasoning:
"But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point."
Comment to the above:
Written into more fluent English, the above sentence states that "the most important thing is that you cannot really prove the reason for why they were killed." - Unfortunately, that is a truly fundamentally erroneous approach.
The question is this: When one, two, nine or more bodies are found, what should then be done?
Should we first ask: "Is there a clear motive for anyone to have caused these deaths?" and then dismiss the possibility of murder unless there is an obvious motive which is found immediately?
Or, should we rather ask: "What was the cause of these deaths, and how can we ascertain the cause of death?"
Of course, the latter approach is the only sensible and scientifically acceptable one. We must first and foremost find out the cause of death, in order to then investigate further into the matter.
Lastly, the infrasound theory is just a little bit less speculative than the aliens theory. After all, infrasound does exist. But there is no experimental of empirical evidence that infrasound can compel nine intelligent and healthy human beings to lose their senses completely in the same way and simultaneously. We can safely put the infrasound theory to rest.
Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law ? All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.
Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law ? All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.
Yes, I have been present in two long court cases. But these cases were not about homicide.
We are however not close to a court case here. Before a trial, evidence has to be produced.
I assure you, the first thing that has to be done of a corpse (or several) are found is to ascertain the cause of death. That is how investigation starts, in order to find evidence.
Investigators do not ask whether there is an obvious motive for murder, and then conclude that the death(s) are natural unless there is an obvioius motive.
They start with a thorough examination of the dead person(s), with the purpose of finding the exact cause of death.
In this case, that was not done. On the contrary, there were orders from Moscow that the investigation must conclude that the Dyatlov group perished from an accident. But that was not the case.
I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.
I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.
In this case, all of the available evidence was not considered, and the case was shut down with an officially dictated conclusion. Which unequivocally tells us that the official conclusion - then and now - is state-mandated and wrong.
Reply #94
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Well there does appear to be missing evidence and the way that the search was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. Along with the Autopsies that appear to fall short of thorough. Imagine being in a Court of Law and having to decide what happened given this inadequate case material. Impossible I would say.
Reply #88
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It is not credible that the traumas and deaths were due to natural causes. We should consider all the injuries as described in the autopsy reports available on this site.
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As for the infrasound theory: The infrasound theory is just a hair less fantastic than the Yeti and aliens theories. Infrasound definitely disturb humans, but we are talking about nine resourceful human beings who leave their tent during the winter night with no proper clothing.
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There is absolutely no scientific reason or empirical support to the theory that it happened in this case.
Jean Daniel Reuss. The way a Criminal Investigation takes place is very important for the final outcome. In the Dyatlov Case we do not have a final outcome because it hasnt been proved exactly what happened. In other words, any Investigation that has taken place since 1959 has failed to give us the exact reason for the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Therefore it follows that if any Investigation findings were put into a Court of Law it would be impossible for a Jury or Judges to come to a final decision. The same applies to Civil Investigations, its very important that the Investigation is carried out properly. This Forum and the Web Site that Teddy has created allows anyone to have their say on what they think may or may not have happened since, and including, the actual event in 1959. The fact is that we still do not have enough Information to be able to say exactly what happened. Simple as that. Plenty of room for speculation. But thats all it is, speculation. The initial Investigation in 1959, had some very serious flaws. And as a result of that we are where we are today. If any thing is being held back by the Russian Authorities then there must be a very good reason for that.
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...................Reply #97..............................
...................Reply #97..............................
Dear Per Inge Oestmoen, I had carefully read your first 180 posts, (March 12, 2018 <--> March 07, 2020) and thanks to you, I was gradually convinced that the most likely explanation for DPI is the attack of a murder commando.
However, I think that your suspicions are heading in the wrong direction when you suspect that the hikers had witnessed activities that were state secrets and therefore that the murderers belonged to the KGB.
• No serious intelligence service kills suspects (intruders...) before it has questioned them at length and systematically.
• The KGB was renowned for its efficiency and had no scruples about killing the intruders (enemies of the people), but only after imprisoning them in suitable facilities so that they could be methodically tortured. Because the KGB wanted to know everything: accomplices, inspirators, relatives, friends, relations, etc.
• The Auspiya Valley and the Kholat Syakhl were little frequented areas but nevertheless often traveled by different people: Mansi hunters, geologists, foresters, loggers, hikers, prospectors...
• Secrets that must be preserved are found in guarded locations, safe deposit boxes, guarded workshops...
They are written texts revealing technical specifications, detailed descriptions of manufacturing processes, possibly prototypes of new devices that it is risky to carry far away in a simple rucksack ..........
• The evolution of an extraordinary secret prototype aircraft or missile, appearing in the skies or on the ground of the Kholat Saykhl, would not have implied the immediate killing of members of the elite of Soviet youth, but on the contrary would have required extensive interrogations.
• In a word, no important secrets could be noticed by the hikers between January 26 or 28 and February 1.
On the contrary, the DPI was a serious failure for the KGB, which proved to be incapable of protecting the hikers.
Reply #100 October 30, 2020, 08:13:41 AM
I repeat: certainly the KGB was known for its unscrupulous and its effectiveness. But the KGB would never have made the enormous mistake of killing the hikers before having questioned them at length in suitable premises.
[...]
I am beginning to understand that Those who orchestrated and accomplished the mission.
• had a good tactics to dominate and defeat in the night combat.
• had no firearms.
• were few in number.
• probably received big punches into their faces.
• .......etc...........
[...]
To sum up, I do not know exactly which killer Commando attacked the 9 hikers, but I am convinced that it is not the KGB (which would never have done such a pitiful "job").
... Reply #104
Lyuda...was the most loyal communist in the group.Do you know of a source for that? WAB says it's an unsubstantiated myth:
I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism, just references on this forum and elsewhere on the web to secondary sources which appear to be quoting people who knew her.
You will not be able find it. Because it is bad myth, created either because people do not understand it at all, or for the purpose of political propaganda. It is necessary know and understand well everything that was related to the youth of that time, so that you can say something truthful.
In the largest number of student youth then in events such as travel, at least something used from politics. They could make jokes about something on this subject (as in their handwritten sheet) or write something about the party's congress on paper in order to let their comrades out of work at the right time. But that was the end of it. They had many other natural hobbies to pursue politics. All this I say because I saw everything in the real life of that time, not because I read somewhere in unreliable source.
Reply #106.....
...I am sure that I have recopied the following sentence, which has now disappeared:
"Dubinina [or Lyudmila] was also a very forthright and outspoken girl who held strong opinions. Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland. For Stalin !" It was said to her that she would not hesitate to tell someone staight to their face if she thought they were wrong in any way...."
(I do not believe I am wrong because I am very bad in English language and I would not have been able to create such a complicated statement).
See : Jean Daniel Reuss: Victims and Case Files > Witness Testimonies > No route map ==> April 13, 2020, 02:15:02 PM --> Reply #2 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=44.msg8837#msg8837
3° ••• Conclusion: since Avril 13, 2020 the following opinion concerning Dubinina (probably coming from Arkhipov Oleg Nikolaevich) has disappeared from this website:"Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland For Stalin !
Dear Per Inge Oestmoen:
- What sort of crucial Soviet state secrets do you imagine the nine hikers "stumbled into" in the middle of the Northern Urals?? What such secrets could be so crucial that nine upstanding Soviet citizens would be immediately marked for assassination for inadvertently finding out something about them?? There is no infrastructure for secret business near the Dyatlov team's route, which you will recall, was officially approved. What sort of secrets would be kept there, where Mansi live and tourists trek?
- If the KGB or the military wanted to eliminate the Dyatlov hikers, they could just make them disappear. Why would they bother with the risky and error-prone method of trying to make it look like the result of hypothermia, falls, and/or snow-crush? It's certainly not unheard-of for people to vanish without a trace in the wilderness (though I admit, it's rare for that to happen to groups of 9 people).
... Reply #104
Dear Per Inge Oestmoen, we are in agreement on the essential aspect that I have even included in my signature:
" There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine."
[...]
I have already written a few comments concerning your arguments. Look at :
Jean Daniel Reuss : November 21, 2020, 09:57:01 AM ==> Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass -> Reply #59
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg11147#msg11147
Here are some additional comments.These combat-trained professional killers would not let themselves be punched in the face
1) - How can we explain the damaged fists of Dyatlov, Slobodin, Kolmogorova and perhaps even Krivononishenko ? Their fists really hit something hard, is that right ? If this is not the face of an attacker, then what is it?
2) - The advantage of superior training diminishes in real combat conditions.
It was in complete darkness. The wind was blowing. Powdery snow was flying everywhere. The snowy ground was slippery
3) - Nobody knows exactly how these "combat-trained professional killers" are trained.
I rather think that the attackers were men resistant to fatigue and cold, good skiers to be able to make the trip from North-2 to the tent quickly. But they were also great savages brutes, good at hitting hard with a big stick but not very fast because they were crammed into their warm clothes.
4) - According to my reenactment the first fights occurred on the slope, shortly after leaving the tent, when the hikers had not had time to be slowed down by the cold. The young and sporty hikers remained flexible and fast in attack as well as in defence.they might in some point in the future reveal what they had seen.
I cannot understand at all what a hiker or a wanderer could have seen that was really important for the security of the Soviet state on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl. Could you give us some more concrete ideas?there was no reason to perform any interrogations or torture
I think the opposite is true because the DPI is an unusual case which, as soon as it is discovered, raises a lot of questions.
• How could good citizens, who with the voucher were on a semi-official mission, suddenly become men to be killed without warning ?
• This is precisely what all the intelligence services would have to find out in great details (What exactly did they see? Who did they meet?...etc ).
• In these cases there is first of all a fundamental principle which is : "The dead will never speak again and then we will not be able to learn anything more"
Well, at least there's apparently at least a secondary source supporting that detail about Dubinina. But I agree, mk, that exaggeration or speculation reported as fact doesn't belong on this website....I am sure that I have recopied the following sentence, which has now disappeared:
"Dubinina [or Lyudmila] was also a very forthright and outspoken girl who held strong opinions. Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland. For Stalin !" It was said to her that she would not hesitate to tell someone staight to their face if she thought they were wrong in any way...."
(I do not believe I am wrong because I am very bad in English language and I would not have been able to create such a complicated statement).
See : Jean Daniel Reuss: Victims and Case Files > Witness Testimonies > No route map ==> April 13, 2020, 02:15:02 PM --> Reply #2 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=44.msg8837#msg8837
3° ••• Conclusion: since Avril 13, 2020 the following opinion concerning Dubinina (probably coming from Arkhipov Oleg Nikolaevich) has disappeared from this website:"Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland For Stalin !
Yes, I do remember reading these things. If they are speculation or exaggeration, I'm glad they've been removed.
1. There were secret military tests in many parts of the Urals. It is very conceivable that the Dyatlov group became witnesses to some kinds of weapon tests or military activities at the time.Could you refer me to a source that explains how the Soviet military would be conducting secret tests so far away from supporting infrastructure, like a base, for example? And in any event, why would the military be doing tests at that time? I thought all military exercises were to be postponed until after the XXI Party Congress was over!
[reply #107]Jean Daniel Reuss, I feel as though you and I still misunderstand each other, due to language barrier. You say that the murder of the nine hikers was an act of terrorism, to send a message to the central government in Moscow. I ask: if terror was the motive, why didn't the killers make it more obvious that the nine hikers had been murdered? An obvious, brutal, senseless murder is more terrorizing than a murder that looks like it maybe could have been a series of misadventures instead. I accept your explanation for why the killers didn't shoot the hikers, but I was not asking specifically about shooting. If terror was their goal, why didn't they use some obviously man-made objects as weapons? If terror was their goal, why didn't they mutilate the corpses in a way that only a human would do? By not making the hikers' deaths obviously homicide, they allowed the government to spin a superficially plausible explanation of hypothermia and a "compelling natural force".
Infrasound ? Most unlikely. But lots of other wild theories are likely ? KGB again ? Why is it that the KGB have to be linked to literally every type of mysterious event that happened.
...Why is it that the KGB have to be linked to literally every type of mysterious event that happened.Hahaha! I agree! It's because they make such excellent villains.
Infrasound ? Most unlikely. But lots of other wild theories are likely ? KGB again ? Why is it that the KGB have to be linked to literally every type of mysterious event that happened.
There are three reasons why we have reason to suspect that the KGB may be the orchestrators and executors of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy:
1. The nine students were very intelligent people who would understand what they had observed, if they indeed observed some secret activity in the Urals. This understanding made them a potential future threat to state security, should anyone among them tell others or let some careless words slip by to a friend or spouse. The Soviet regime was not one to take such risks.
2. The Dyatlov Pass tragedy seemed to be an accident, but at a close examination we see that the injuries they had suffered are compatible with human lethal attack - and only with human lethal attack. The injuries could not have resulted from any nonexistent avalanches, nor could they possibly result from falls. Thus, the fate of the nine hikers was the result of human action, and it is beyond doubt that the killers took great pains to make the whole thing look like an accident. If there had not been a sudden rise in temperature in the Kholat Syakhl area during the night of February 2, 1959, the mission would have been faultless since all the victims would have frozen to death as intended. As it were, the students had to be hunted down since even without proper clothing for winter (it was left in the tent when the students were driven out) they did not die rapidly as planned. Only very resourceful, determined attackers could have shown the discipline to do this, and the fact that none of the hikers' belongings were stolen proves that the objective of the attackers was to exterminate the nine. There must have been a reason for that.
3. The KGB was the most sophisticated, scarily competent and merciless intelligence and special operations organization known in human history. To orchestrate a ruthless murder and make it look like an "accident" in such a way as we can see in the Dyatlov Pass killings is typical of them.
Do we know for sure? No. The evidence we have, would not hold up in any court because the evidence that the nine were killed still does not prove the exact identity of the murderers. We shall not know with certainty until someone who knows tells the whole truth.
...Why is it that the KGB have to be linked to literally every type of mysterious event that happened.Hahaha! I agree! It's because they make such excellent villains.
How does infrasound move anything by 500 yards or at all?
I also think it wasn't infrasound, but infrasound is very common, any vibration, tremor, rumble etc. is infrasound. Does it move objects? No. Well, unless you're talking about an earthquake...