Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: tenne on December 18, 2022, 10:55:32 AM
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from the diary of ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit."
Sasha, also known as Semyon, was added to the group by the authorities
A suitcase nuclear device is a tactical nuclear weapon that is portable enough that it could use a suitcase as its delivery method. Both the United States and the Soviet Union developed nuclear weapons small enough to be portable in specially-designed backpacks during the 1950s and 1960s
any thoughts on if there are any connections between this information? did something happen and the bomb went off and that's why it was covered up?
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from the diary of ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit."
Sasha, also known as Semyon, was added to the group by the authorities
A suitcase nuclear device is a tactical nuclear weapon that is portable enough that it could use a suitcase as its delivery method. Both the United States and the Soviet Union developed nuclear weapons small enough to be portable in specially-designed backpacks during the 1950s and 1960s
any thoughts on if there are any connections between this information? did something happen and the bomb went off and that's why it was covered up?
Саша испытывал туристские сани. Такой вид помощи самим себе - используют туристы всех стран. Альпинисты - тоже.
Вас, случаем, не Чарльз зовут? До этих пор - ресурс вроде бы не атаковали тролли. А Вы по всем проявлениям - именно тролль.
Обиженный и беспокойный. Давайте уж, крепите аватар себе. Тогда все будет очень понятно.
Sasha tested tourist sleds. This type of self-help is used by tourists from all countries. Climbers too.
Is your name Charles, by any chance? Until now, the resource does not seem to have been attacked by trolls. And you are, by all accounts, a troll.
Offended and restless. Come on, fix your avatar. Then everything will be very clear.
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so he took tourist sleds with him to test? they were not in a tourist area and a 'device' isn't a 'sled' and they clearly used the term 'sled' for a sled
"The sled belonged to uncle Slava, convicted in Lithuania in 1949 for 10 years and released to the settlement in 1956."
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so he took tourist sleds with him to test? they were not in a tourist area and a 'device' isn't a 'sled' and they clearly used the term 'sled' for the tent
Нет, он их сделал во время маршрута из запасных лыж. Туристы СССР всегда в лыжные походы брали запасные лыжи.
Лыжи склонны к травматизму и чтобы можно было дальше продолжать поход: брались запасные. Как если бы запасное колесо у автомобиля.
No, he made them during the route from spare skis. Tourists of the USSR always took spare skis on ski trips.
Skis are prone to injuries and so that you can continue the trip further: spare ones were taken. It's like having a spare tire on a car.
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"The sled belonged to uncle Slava, convicted in Lithuania in 1949 for 10 years and released to the settlement in 1956."
То что тянут лошади - в России тоже называется санями. Потому что сани - по снегу.
Вспоминайте Санта Клауса, его оленей и санки, в которых сидит Санта Клаус.
Так вот. Вместо оленей - вообразите лошадей. Если не получается - изучайте фото похода гр. Дятлова.
Там сани и лошадь в полной красе.
П.С. Маска, я Вас узнала по нику. Такой ник мог взять только француз. Заходящий через анонимайзер, взяв Канаду.
Именно поэтому у Вас не прихватился автоматически в аватар - флаг Канады.
What horses pull is also called a sleigh in Russia. Because the sleigh is in the snow.
Remember Santa Claus, his reindeer and the sleigh in which Santa Claus sits.
So. Instead of deer, imagine horses. If it doesn’t work out, study the photo of the hike gr. Dyatlov.
There is a sleigh and a horse in full glory.
P.S. Mask, I recognized you by your nickname. Only a Frenchman could take such a nickname. Entering through the anonymizer, taking Canada.
That is why you did not automatically grab into the avatar - the flag of Canada.
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Hi Tenne, welcome back to the forum... in case you are the same Tenne!
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I am the same Tenne and since the racist has quit posting disgusting things about minorities, I'm back....
not sure why I'm supposed to be french though....
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"The sled belonged to uncle Slava, convicted in Lithuania in 1949 for 10 years and released to the settlement in 1956."
То что тянут лошади - в России тоже называется санями. Потому что сани - по снегу.
Вспоминайте Санта Клауса, его оленей и санки, в которых сидит Санта Клаус.
Так вот. Вместо оленей - вообразите лошадей. Если не получается - изучайте фото похода гр. Дятлова.
Там сани и лошадь в полной красе.
П.С. Маска, я Вас узнала по нику. Такой ник мог взять только француз. Заходящий через анонимайзер, взяв Канаду.
Именно поэтому у Вас не прихватился автоматически в аватар - флаг Канады.
What horses pull is also called a sleigh in Russia. Because the sleigh is in the snow.
Remember Santa Claus, his reindeer and the sleigh in which Santa Claus sits.
So. Instead of deer, imagine horses. If it doesn’t work out, study the photo of the hike gr. Dyatlov.
There is a sleigh and a horse in full glory.
P.S. Mask, I recognized you by your nickname. Only a Frenchman could take such a nickname. Entering through the anonymizer, taking Canada.
That is why you did not automatically grab into the avatar - the flag of Canada.
there is mentioning of one spare pair of skis. Yudin returned on his skis. Ski professionals say that extra pairs of skis are essential for such a long route. Traditionally, the last person in the line drags them behind with a rope. In this photo we see Krivonischenko carrying skis on his back. It was probably this extra pair that was used to make Kolevatov's sled mentioned in their satirical propaganda leaflet
so are you saying that the device was Kolevatov's sled?
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Hi Tenne, welcome back to the forum... in case you are the same Tenne!
I am the same Tenne and since the racist has quit posting disgusting things about minorities, I'm back....
not sure why I'm supposed to be french though....
Yes, welcome back. To explain why you're "supposed to be French"... Почемучка seems to think that you are an alternate account of a French user of these forums named Charles, who deleted his account a few days ago.
from the diary of ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit."
Sasha, also known as Semyon, was added to the group by the authorities
A suitcase nuclear device is a tactical nuclear weapon that is portable enough that it could use a suitcase as its delivery method. Both the United States and the Soviet Union developed nuclear weapons small enough to be portable in specially-designed backpacks during the 1950s and 1960s
any thoughts on if there are any connections between this information? did something happen and the bomb went off and that's why it was covered up?
To address your OP... "Sasha" is typically a nickname for "Alexander" or "Alexandra", and in this context, refers to Aleksander Kolevatov. It is true, however, that Semyon Zolotaryov introduced himself as "Sasha" for some reason. Anyhow,it is generally accepted that Kolevatov's "device" (translation of "приспособление") was a sled, jury-rigged using spare skis, that could be used to pull supplies across the snow instead of carrying them. The sled may not have worked that well in the hilly terrain and dense trees that the Dyatlovites had to navigate.
I doubt very much that a suitcase bomb was involved in the Dyatlov Pass Incident.
Edit: For reference, "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit." is a translation of this sentence in the original Russian, "Сашка Колеватов испытывал своё приспособление и бросил."
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Just dropped the bomb on Chuck!
A low yield suitcase bomb has no business being on 1079. There is no profit in it.
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A low yield suitcase bomb has no business being on 1079. There is no profit in it.
"Follow the money", right?
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True that!
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so are you saying that the device was Kolevatov's sled?
Именно так. Разве мои пояснения - можно понять иначе? В России есть библиотека туристических отчетов. Такое изобретение в ходе маршрута - придумывал не только Саша. Рюкзаки были очень тяжелые. Некоторые группы сразу как снаряжение - брали с собою сани/нарты. Только это было неудобно. Это дополнительный груз по бурелому тайги. Группы часто выкидывали такие сани после недели похода. Если Вы рассмотрите фото выемки из ручья - то Вы обнаружите на первом плане именно такую конструкцию. Из лыж. С помощью такой конструкции поднимали тела к вертолетной площадке.
Exactly. Can my explanations be understood differently? Russia has a library of travel reports. Such an invention during the route was not only invented by Sasha. The backpacks were very heavy. Some groups immediately took sleds/sleds as equipment. Only it was inconvenient. This is an additional load on the brown taiga. Groups often threw out such sleds after a week of hiking. If you look at the photo of the excavation from the stream, then you will find just such a design in the foreground. From skis. With the help of this design, the bodies were raised to the helipad.
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Yes, welcome back. To explain why you're "supposed to be French"... Почемучка seems to think that you are an alternate account of a French user of these forums named Charles, who deleted his account a few days ago.
Ну очень жаль. Я была бы не против его возвращения. Самоубийства даже виртуальные - это неправильно и очень грустно.
Человеку свойственно изучать тему, получать большие знания и менять точку зрения. Даже на свою точку зрения.
Я могу это сказать как человек, который имел в своей голове столько вариантов сюжета, что Чарльз - просто меня не догонит.
Одно утешает, что моя женская интуиция как-то смогла привести в итоге к такой версии, что самая первая моя версия - хоть сколько-нибудь упомянута.
Шпионская версия - была моей первой версией. Я считала что группу убила - залегшая на дно вражеская агентура из числа пособников фашистов. Такие персонажи - были узниками Ивдельлага. Я придумывала про предсмертную записку на руке Золотарева - химическим карандашом. Про то что Люда без языка - потому что она писала эти последние буквы и слюнявила карандаш. И враги - поэтому его ей удалили. Не понимая этой странности. Если Вы почитаете - дневники участников группы: они часто написаны не авторучкою или чернильной ручкою, а химическим карандашом. Полет моей фантазии был такой вертикальный...
Так что - имеет смысл не расставаться с жизнью даже виртуальной...
П.С. Юзер за один день сразу открыл несколько новых тем ни о чем, о том что давно и всем понятно. На русский взгляд - так поступают тролли. Вот почему я в нем увидела Чарльза.
Well, sorry. I wouldn't mind his return. Suicide, even virtual ones, is wrong and very sad.
It is human nature to study a topic, gain more knowledge and change one's point of view. Even your point of view.
I can say this as someone who had so many plot options in his head that Charles just couldn't catch up with me.
One consolation is that my female intuition somehow managed to eventually lead to such a version that my very first version was at least mentioned.
Spy version - was my first version. I thought that the group was killed by enemy agents lying on the bottom from among the accomplices of the Nazis. Such characters were prisoners of Ivdellag. I thought about a suicide note on Zolotarev's hand - with an indelible pencil. About the fact that Lyuda is without a tongue - because she wrote these last letters and slobbered a pencil. And enemies - that's why they removed it to her. Not understanding this oddity. If you read - the diaries of the band members: they are often written not with a fountain pen or ink pen, but with an indelible pencil. The flight of my imagination was so vertical...
So - it makes sense not to part with life, even virtual ...
P.S. In one day, the user immediately opened several new topics about nothing, about what was clear to everyone for a long time. In the Russian view - this is what trolls do. That's why I saw Charles in him.
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I guess the poster isn't that familiar with the western parts of canada, where being told you are french "them there are fighting words" LOL
and if the poster thinks I am a troll, then why bother feeding into it? I can only guess that they enjoy being a troll themselves?
anyway, one main reason I brought up some stuff is I am the grand daughter of a fur trapper in northern Ontario, who LIVED these conditions, many of my dad's friends were also trappers, I live in a very extreme portion of western canada where cross country skiing camping is the norm and the 'evidence' that the poster is insisting has been settled, are opinions and nothing more. NOT one of the old timers whose lives depended on traversing -30, deep snow and living, agree with the tent being carried on the back, plus a few other things that I have posted about.
so until I see something posted that the old timers who lived these things agree with, I will still be looking and posting to see if anything new has come up that they would say YES, that is what could have happened
or perhaps I'm wrong and only opinions that have been previous approved by the self appointed 'expert' are allowed?
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anyway, one main reason I brought up some stuff is I am the grand daughter of a fur trapper in northern Ontario, who LIVED these conditions, many of my dad's friends were also trappers, I live in a very extreme portion of western canada where cross country skiing camping is the norm
Как интересно. Внучка зверолова - это звучит гордо. Какой высоты у Вас там сугробы снега? Какую дичь добываете?
Можете фотографию лыж Вашего деда прикрепить? Семейный архив или архив музея Вашего городка или статью из газеты?
Вот фото, которое я предлагала Вам рассмотреть
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-50-3_1.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-53A_1.jpg)
How interesting. The trapper's granddaughter sounds proud. How high are your snowdrifts there? What kind of game do you get?
Can you attach a photo of your grandfather's skis? Family archive or museum archive in your town or newspaper article?
Here is a photo that I suggested you to consider
or perhaps I'm wrong and only opinions that have been previous approved by the self appointed 'expert' are allowed?
Что бы иметь мнение - нужно иметь под него знания. Надеюсь, в Ваших знаниях хотя бы Земля - круглая?
Имеет смысл отметить, что очень часто реалии более близкого времени располагают на сильно давние времена.
Это ошибка всей молодежи. Ей кажется что так было всегда. Тем не менее свою прабабушку - никто не считает юной девушкой.
Поэтому и к событиям надо подходить с этой же стороны. Смотреть - что было на 1959 год у Вас, хотя бы в Канаде.
Были ли бомбы в чемоданах, зачем они были такие нужны и что им делать в безлюдных местах.
В Канаде как я знаю - проводился один из мощнейших неядерных взрывов. Убирали мешавшую часть скалы. 5 апреля 1958 - скала Рипл-Рок.
На склоне 1079 - ничего и никому не мешало.
To have an opinion - you need to have knowledge under it. Hoping, in your knowledge, at least the Earth is round?
It makes sense to note that very often the realities of a closer time are placed on very ancient times.
This is the mistake of all youth. It seems to her that it has always been like this. Nevertheless, no one considers his great-grandmother to be a young girl.
Therefore, events must be approached from the same side. See what you had in 1959, at least in Canada.
Were there bombs in suitcases, why were they needed and what should they do in deserted places.
In Canada, as I know, one of the most powerful non-nuclear explosions was carried out. The interfering part of the rock was removed. April 5, 1958 - Ripple Rock.
On slope 1079 - nothing bothered anyone.
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Every insult diminishes the strength of the essential arguement. Try to do better and we will all benefit.
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Hi Tenne, welcome back to the forum... in case you are the same Tenne!
I am the same Tenne and since the racist has quit posting disgusting things about minorities, I'm back....
not sure why I'm supposed to be french though....
Yes, welcome back. To explain why you're "supposed to be French"... Почемучка seems to think that you are an alternate account of a French user of these forums named Charles, who deleted his account a few days ago.
from the diary of ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit."
Sasha, also known as Semyon, was added to the group by the authorities
A suitcase nuclear device is a tactical nuclear weapon that is portable enough that it could use a suitcase as its delivery method. Both the United States and the Soviet Union developed nuclear weapons small enough to be portable in specially-designed backpacks during the 1950s and 1960s
any thoughts on if there are any connections between this information? did something happen and the bomb went off and that's why it was covered up?
To address your OP... "Sasha" is typically a nickname for "Alexander" or "Alexandra", and in this context, refers to Aleksander Kolevatov. It is true, however, that Semyon Zolotaryov introduced himself as "Sasha" for some reason. Anyhow,it is generally accepted that Kolevatov's "device" (translation of "приспособление") was a sled, jury-rigged using spare skis, that could be used to pull supplies across the snow instead of carrying them. The sled may not have worked that well in the hilly terrain and dense trees that the Dyatlovites had to navigate.
I doubt very much that a suitcase bomb was involved in the Dyatlov Pass Incident.
Edit: For reference, "Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit." is a translation of this sentence in the original Russian, "Сашка Колеватов испытывал своё приспособление и бросил."
WAB is gone, Charles is out , why this forum has turned into typical internet pincher fight ??? I miss its old environment. Both WAB and Charles had a lot of materials but if they don:t coincide with avalanche or any "natural' cause, some people are deeply bu**hurt and start yapping till the user is gone... Wtf?
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WAB is gone, Charles is out , why this forum has turned into typical internet pincher fight ??? I miss its old environment. Both WAB and Charles had a lot of materials but if they don:t coincide with avalanche or any "natural' cause, some people are deeply bu**hurt and start yapping till the user is gone... Wtf?
Charles showed little respect to WAB. Infact, Charles slagged off WAB's hypothesis and laid lumps into him.
It was Charles that did not agree with a "natural" cause, it is him that slagged off any idea that wasn't his. All we can do is put forward our ideas. He had his agenda that it was murder but couldn't make a rational case other than gulags, 30k people killed by Russia NKVD, therefore , they did it......with a ski boot...ta daaaa🤷🏻♂️
Charles was the biggest yapper of all time. Apparently he saved the USSR from being sold of to the USA , single handedly.
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Absinthe, those who embrace the slab slide theory are supporting Occam's Razor. They are not petulant. They simply maintain that the overburden of suppositions necessary for other hypotheses can not be substantiated, only speculated.
If anyone misses the old environment where insult and ad hominem attack replace reasoning, then there are other online outlets for that energy.
The only question that needs an answer is ," Why did the tourists abandon the tent?" Anyone can put forward a guess, none can supply proof. That is the old environment and the new environment too.
Please continue to advance your ideas, just be civil as we all are.
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It was Charles that did not agree with a "natural" cause, it is him that slagged off any idea that wasn't his. All we can do is put forward our ideas. He had his agenda that it was murder but couldn't make a rational case other than gulags, 30k people killed by Russia NKVD, therefore , they did it......with a ski boot...ta daaaa🤷🏻♂️
Видимо он был впечатлен историей
(https://histrf.ru/uploads/media/default/0001/72/22dc57a2b55bc4ee44a95d8638e3b152c50a9d14.jpeg)
(https://histrf.ru/uploads/media/default/0001/72/92b04ad081a8d7a556ae65d98218db85f69e4f14.jpeg)
Гены - на козе не объехать.
Apparently he was impressed by the story
Genes - do not go around on a goat.
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Every insult diminishes the strength of the essential arguement. Try to do better and we will all benefit.
Споры невозможны без пикировки. Это как фехтование. Укол заставляет не только злиться, но и эффективнее и перспективнее думать.
Disputes are impossible without a pick. It's like fencing. The injection makes not only angry, but also more efficient and more promising to think.
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WAB is gone, Charles is out , why this forum has turned into typical internet pincher fight ??? I miss its old environment. Both WAB and Charles had a lot of materials but if they don:t coincide with avalanche or any "natural' cause, some people are deeply bu**hurt and start yapping till the user is gone... Wtf?
Charles showed little respect to WAB. Infact, Charles slagged off WAB's hypothesis and laid lumps into him.
It was Charles that did not agree with a "natural" cause, it is him that slagged off any idea that wasn't his. All we can do is put forward our ideas. He had his agenda that it was murder but couldn't make a rational case other than gulags, 30k people killed by Russia NKVD, therefore , they did it......with a ski boot...ta daaaa🤷🏻♂️
Charles was the biggest yapper of all time. Apparently he saved the USSR from being sold of to the USA , single handedly.
Charles made the best case for DPI being murder that I've ever encountered. As I state here (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg18749#msg18749), while I do not accept his specific homicide theory, I find his analysis of the distribution of bone fractures pretty compelling.
Edit: formatting tags
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I personally do not believe it was a deliberate murder, just for the record, I think there was a bomb or something like that that went off and that explosion killed them
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For me , he came up with the best motive . I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.
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For me , he came up with the best motive .
shock1
Surely, you don't find a Kolevatov-assassination scenario credible?!
I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.
In what ways?
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I personally do not believe it was a deliberate murder, just for the record, I think there was a bomb or something like that that went off and that explosion killed them
At the tent, tree, ravine, where? Asking for a friend.
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my idea is that they didn't finish the route like they were going to once they found out the sled didn't work to pull the tent along with them. Given the fact it took so long to get permission and if they went back early they could be in as much trouble as being late, IMO, they simply skied around the area they last used tried to pull the tent on a sled.
something blew up and they weren't supposed to be there so rather than admit the weapon and the deaths, the whole thing was faked. the lights were a helicopter bring in the bodies and tent, it was crudely set up and the bodies placed in a way to make it look like it was natural but they don't have a lot of experience setting up crime scenes because, they never had to bother
that's why the tent was there (and people who are experienced in the mountains do not go down a slope to escape an avalanche BTW. the standard practice is to run sideways into the trees) and the stove not set up. I believe the later entries were faked and the tracks were soldiers? KGB? skiing back
someone went through a lot of trouble to insert an older suspected KGB agent into the group for a reason and I think its related, just not sure how
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For me , he came up with the best motive .
shock1
Surely, you don't find a Kolevatov-assassination scenario credible?!
I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.
In what ways?
Hi RMK.
I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible. In my goofing around on the web , I came across a reference to a nuclear disaster in 1957. Allegedly one of the hikers father's worked there. He left and was ordered to go back, he wouldn't. The father of the hicker had some title , "" general" , but not in a military sense . Kyshtym disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster. Whether this is what Charles meant I don't know. Unfortunately with Charles , we ended up going down other paths, it got left behind and things evolved to other ideas.
His illustration doesn't work when he spreads his fractures across the group. When he uses world wide statistics , all variables are lost. The the stats cover all fractures . For the sample, the fractures from RTA would need to be put together , then a pattern would appear, then question , were they wearing seat belts, then how old was the car, what model, did it have air bags etc.
Like wise, what are the stats for broken ribs by human violence, flali chest fractures etc. Ribs broken by land slides , so on. My understanding of the broken/fractured ribs is the were along a straight line. This implies that the force was applied over a large area of the chest. I don't think it's easy to do by human hands/feet /elbow. Possibly by having someone lie down, and then let the whole body weight of the attacker come down with force might do it. But it's a messy , inconvenient way to murder. IMO.
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my idea is that they didn't finish the route like they were going to once they found out the sled didn't work to pull the tent along with them. Given the fact it took so long to get permission and if they went back early they could be in as much trouble as being late, IMO, they simply skied around the area they last used tried to pull the tent on
Are you suggesting that if the hikers did not finish when they said they would, then they would not get their certification?
Is this the trouble they would get into?
I trust we are not talking about a suitcase bomb on the ski sled. Wouldn't Yuri Yiden's supplies be the thing carried on the sled? After all, hemwent home early. Please comment.
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Колеватов сделал сани из обрезков лыж. Их видно на фотографии:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=6688&view=findpost&p=70067
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my idea is that they didn't finish the route like they were going to once they found out the sled didn't work to pull the tent along with them. Given the fact it took so long to get permission and if they went back early they could be in as much trouble as being late, IMO, they simply skied around the area they last used tried to pull the tent on
Are you suggesting that if the hikers did not finish when they said they would, then they would not get their certification?
Is this the trouble they would get into?
I trust we are not talking about a suitcase bomb on the ski sled. Wouldn't Yuri Yiden's supplies be the thing carried on the sled? After all, hemwent home early. Please comment.
No, I am suggesting that a trip that got someone interested enough in it to insert a KGB member into it, would have a lot of explaining to do why they didn't do the trip. From my limited understanding, any deviation of plans in the soviet union were harshly examined.
No, not the suitcase bomb on the sled, the sled was to be used for pulling the tent along and it didn't work, so IMO, they didn't try to finish because there is no way a frozen canvas tent could be put into a back pack and carried. My question about the suitcase bomb was about the 'device' that was tested. they used the term sled for skis used to pull stuff on so did they mean a sled? mis translation?
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I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible. In my goofing around on the web , I came across a reference to a nuclear disaster in 1957. Allegedly one of the hikers father's worked there. He left and was ordered to go back, he wouldn't. The father of the hicker had some title , "" general" , but not in a military sense . Kyshtym disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster. Whether this is what Charles meant I don't know. Unfortunately with Charles , we ended up going down other paths, it got left behind and things evolved to other ideas.
Зачем Вы гуляете в каком-то левом интернете? Все и абсолютно все есть на этом ресурсе. Документально.
Не отец, а сам Георгий Кривонищенко попал по распределению после окончания Уральского политехнического института - туда, где уже состоялась Кыштымская авария. Его отец строил будущую атомную станцию - Белоярскую. На момент гибели сына - там были только еще стены. Никакой действующей атомной электростанции. Он действительно был - военным строителем при достаточных погонах. На стройке работало много зэков и конфликты там были делом житейским. Известно происшествие когда недовольные большой нагрузкой зэки явились к нему на разборки. Все обошлось и трения сторон обошлись по-мирному.
Причем тут Саша Колеватов? У которого отец попал под поезд в 1944 году и который был инвалидом еще со времен революционной борьбы 1917 года? Отец Саши Колеватова воевал на стороне белых и был сильно травмирован. Увечье позволяло работать только на легком труде. Таком как бухгалтерия.
Why are you walking in some left Internet? Everything and absolutely everything is on this resource. Documented.
Not the father, but Georgy Krivonischenko himself, got into distribution after graduating from the Ural Polytechnic Institute - to the place where the Kyshtym accident had already taken place. His father built the future nuclear power plant - Beloyarskaya. At the time of his son's death, there were only walls there. No operating nuclear power plant. He really was - a military builder with sufficient shoulder straps. Many convicts worked at the construction site, and conflicts there were a matter of life. An incident is known when prisoners, dissatisfied with the heavy workload, came to him for a showdown. Everything worked out and the friction of the parties managed peacefully.
And what about Sasha Kolevatov? Whose father was hit by a train in 1944 and who had been disabled since the revolutionary struggle of 1917? Sasha Kolevatov's father fought on the side of the whites and was badly injured. The injury allowed him to work only on light labor. Sort of like accounting.
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Why are you walking in some left Internet? Everything and absolutely everything is on this resource. Documented.
Почемучка ,Sometimes I roam long distances like the Wolverine. I like to look and occasionally it leads down rabbit holes which it leads to things I've not read. I do not know if everything is on this resource and I like to triangulate my information.
I take what others say as the truth but sometimes it is lost in interpretation. I have not yet read every article supplied here.
If this is not allowed, I will stop.
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Почемучка ,Sometimes I roam long distances like the Wolverine. I like to look and occasionally it leads down rabbit holes which it leads to things I've not read. I do not know if everything is on this resource and I like to triangulate my information.
Поверьте уж мне. Здесь самый полный архив чем где-либо. Российские источники давно стали ссылками в никуда. Теодора очень вовремя все у себя собрала по большей части. Информация не хранится на ресурсах вечно, потому что ресурсы не вечны. У нас столько хороших площадок и исследователей рухнуло, потому что исследователи обрели свою точку зрения и расстались с темой.
Trust me. Here is the most complete archive than anywhere else. Russian sources have long become links to nowhere. Theodora collected everything at her place very timely for the most part. Information is not stored on resources forever, because resources do not last forever. We have so many good sites and researchers collapsed, because the researchers found their point of view and parted with the topic.
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Почемучка ,Sometimes I roam long distances like the Wolverine. I like to look and occasionally it leads down rabbit holes which it leads to things I've not read. I do not know if everything is on this resource and I like to triangulate my information.
Поверьте уж мне. Здесь самый полный архив чем где-либо. Российские источники давно стали ссылками в никуда. Теодора очень вовремя все у себя собрала по большей части. Информация не хранится на ресурсах вечно, потому что ресурсы не вечны. У нас столько хороших площадок и исследователей рухнуло, потому что исследователи обрели свою точку зрения и расстались с темой.
Trust me. Here is the most complete archive than anywhere else. Russian sources have long become links to nowhere. Theodora collected everything at her place very timely for the most part. Information is not stored on resources forever, because resources do not last forever. We have so many good sites and researchers collapsed, because the researchers found their point of view and parted with the topic.
I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying here, you believe that everything the soviet government released was the truth?
while I agree that this is the best site hands down for the official government documents, etc, I do doubt the truth of the reports, lying was the norm in soviet russia to protect both one's self and their family. there is a special name for those lies, I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian
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I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying here, you believe that everything the soviet government released was the truth?
while I agree that this is the best site hands down for the official government documents, etc, I do doubt the truth of the reports, lying was the norm in soviet russia to protect both one's self and their family. there is a special name for those lies, I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian
Если под советским правительством Вы понимаете выводы в документе о прекращении уголовного дела, то я отвечаю. Да, итоги расследования определили причиной неблагоприятные погодные условия.
If by the Soviet government you understand the conclusions in the document on the termination of the criminal case, then I answer. Yes, the results of the investigation identified the cause of adverse weather conditions.
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I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian
Это слово - дезинформация. Оно не особо русского происхождения. Это опять латынь. У дезинформации всегда цель подать что-то в нужном аспекте. Необходимость может диктоваться разными необходимыми причинами для государства.
Чаще всего - это используется во внешней разведке. Для той страны, которая имеет смутное представление о делах другой страны.
Например, в коммерческой деятельности конкурирующие компании часто используют для своих конкурентов - именно дезинформацию. О том что компания - сделала какое-то важное открытие, патент, который выведет её в лидеры рынка.
Дезинформация для своего населения - это когда специальными мерами внедряется не тот уровень обстоятельств, что был на самом деле. Например, в ковиде обвиняли Китай и активно обвинял США. Оказалось, США - и были главным шеф-поваром этой неприятности.
This word is disinformation. It is not of particularly Russian origin. It's Latin again. Disinformation always has the goal of presenting something in the right aspect. Necessity may be dictated by various necessary reasons for the state.
Most often - it is used in foreign intelligence. For a country that has a vague idea of the affairs of another country.
For example, in commercial activities, competing companies often use misinformation for their competitors. The fact that the company has made some important discovery, a patent that will make it a market leader.
Disinformation for its population is when the wrong level of circumstances is introduced by special measures that was in fact. For example, China was blamed for covid and the United States was actively blamed. It turned out that the USA was the main chef of this trouble.
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For me , he came up with the best motive .
shock1
Surely, you don't find a Kolevatov-assassination scenario credible?!
I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.
In what ways?
Hi RMK.
I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible.
[snip]
His illustration doesn't work when he spreads his fractures across the group. When he uses world wide statistics , all variables are lost. The the stats cover all fractures . For the sample, the fractures from RTA would need to be put together , then a pattern would appear, then question , were they wearing seat belts, then how old was the car, what model, did it have air bags etc.
Like wise, what are the stats for broken ribs by human violence, flali chest fractures etc. Ribs broken by land slides , so on. My understanding of the broken/fractured ribs is the were along a straight line. This implies that the force was applied over a large area of the chest. I don't think it's easy to do by human hands/feet /elbow. Possibly by having someone lie down, and then let the whole body weight of the attacker come down with force might do it. But it's a messy , inconvenient way to murder. IMO.
Well, OK, that's fair; in your post, you specifically referred to the "motive", and not to Charles' scenario as a whole. I regard his scenario as a a whole to be too far-fetched and to rely too much on unlikely coincidence. But, I will give him some credit for originality regarding the motive. There are other homicide theories that propose that only one member of Dyatlov's group was the target, with the others being "collateral damage"...BUT, the one being targeted is usually proposed to be Dubinina (because her big mouth got her in trouble) or Zolotaryov (because his mysterious past caught up with him). I've never seen a theory before that proposed Kolevatov as the the target!
Concerning the fractures...I understand the point you make about "all variables lost", and I do acknowledge here (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg18749#msg18749) that limitation of Charles' argument:
It's unfortunate that the study you cite concerns (as aforementioned) "all-cause" morbidity of bone fractures, and does not present statistics stratified by cause-of-injury (e.g., misadventure/accident versus assault versus self-inflicted), but I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of fractures occur due to misadventure or accident, and not due to human malice. That is, we can treat the bodily distribution of fractures reported in the GBDS as being "approximately" typical of accidental fractures.
Think of it like this: if the Dyatlov Pass Incident was due to some misadventure, is it not surprising that we observe not even one fractured humerus, radius, or ulna?
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Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Down came the Tzar, up goes the Communist. Now you say the Communist earn no trust so down they go. Why would the Communist lie about nine lonely people on a distant mountain who took a chance and froze? They were not rich, they had no power, they were deep in Soviet territory. They were loyal to the State. They had intelligence and skills. They were no threat. They were respected and accepted by their school. They acted appropriately for their age. There was certainly no bomb and certainly no soldiers to bother them.
Follow the money! If the hikers were killed, show who got a payment. Show who becomes a hero of the Soviet by murder. Show who can silence the familiesmof the dead and Yuri Yuden during his life.
A natural disaster in the snow makes much more sense. No more dreaming with eyes open.
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I can't remember what it is, but I was told this by a person who spoke russian that there is a special name for lies told to people who know they are lies but have to continue to support that lie for their own safety, mainly in the military area. official lies I guess they would be called?. I could be wrong of course, I do not speak russian
Это слово - дезинформация. Оно не особо русского происхождения. Это опять латынь. У дезинформации всегда цель подать что-то в нужном аспекте. Необходимость может диктоваться разными необходимыми причинами для государства.
Чаще всего - это используется во внешней разведке. Для той страны, которая имеет смутное представление о делах другой страны.
Например, в коммерческой деятельности конкурирующие компании часто используют для своих конкурентов - именно дезинформацию. О том что компания - сделала какое-то важное открытие, патент, который выведет её в лидеры рынка.
Дезинформация для своего населения - это когда специальными мерами внедряется не тот уровень обстоятельств, что был на самом деле. Например, в ковиде обвиняли Китай и активно обвинял США. Оказалось, США - и были главным шеф-поваром этой неприятности.
This word is disinformation. It is not of particularly Russian origin. It's Latin again. Disinformation always has the goal of presenting something in the right aspect. Necessity may be dictated by various necessary reasons for the state.
Most often - it is used in foreign intelligence. For a country that has a vague idea of the affairs of another country.
For example, in commercial activities, competing companies often use misinformation for their competitors. The fact that the company has made some important discovery, a patent that will make it a market leader.
Disinformation for its population is when the wrong level of circumstances is introduced by special measures that was in fact. For example, China was blamed for covid and the United States was actively blamed. It turned out that the USA was the main chef of this trouble.
it also has two words for lies: lozh (ложь) and vranyo (враньё)
You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.
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it also has two words for lies: lozh (ложь) and vranyo (враньё)
You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.
Ложь и вранье - это методы достижения личных персональных целей. То есть одного и конкретного человека.
Пример, мне нравится фасон твоего платья и я хочу такое же. Но очень не хочу чтобы мы с тобою появились где-то - в одинаковом наряде. И тогда я тебе скажу - что тебе цвет не идет, что ты в нем как корова в седле и еще кучу минус-комплиментов. Если у нас взаимоотношения не лучших врагов, то платье ты поменяешь. Это будет моей ложью для моих целей.
Дезинформация - это государственные интересы. Когда что-то делается из соображений выгоды для большего числа населения. То есть для многих людей.
Эти вещи прекрасно понимают люди имеющие образование. И мало понимают - с его отсутствием. Возможно Канада именно так смотрит на образование. Стране нужны люди просто эмоциональные и не знающие как их эмоциями режиссируют.
Знание русского языка тут не играет роли. Чтобы понимать суть - достаточно знать историю Вашей родной страны. А эта история - написана на Вашем языке. У Канады тоже есть исторические примеры игры в дезинформацию. И есть исторические примеры личной лжи для своих корыстных или неосознанных интересов.
Lies and lies are methods for achieving personal personal goals. That is one and the same person.
Example, I like the style of your dress and I want the same. But I really don’t want you and me to appear somewhere - in the same outfit. And then I'll tell you - that the color does not suit you, that you are in it like a cow in the saddle and a bunch of minus compliments. If our relationship is not the best of enemies, then you will change the dress. This will be my lie for my purposes.
Disinformation is in the public interest. When something is done for reasons of benefit for a larger number of the population. That is for many people.
These things are well understood by people with education. And they understand little - with its absence. Perhaps this is how Canada views education. The country needs people who are simply emotional and who do not know how they are directed by their emotions.
Knowledge of the Russian language does not play a role here. To understand the essence - it is enough to know the history of your native country. And this story is written in your language. Canada also has historical examples of playing disinformation. And there are historical examples of personal lies for their own selfish or unconscious interests.
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not sure what your point is, the is didn't happen in canada, therefore canadian culture isn't at issue.
To compare apples to apples, are you saying that 1959 canada was a communist country with a dictator and gulags where enemies of the state were sent to?
Because that is the time frame and political climate we are talking about, not 2022 Canada and Russia
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not sure what your point is, the is didn't happen in canada, therefore canadian culture isn't at issue.
To compare apples to apples, are you saying that 1959 canada was a communist country with a dictator and gulags where enemies of the state were sent to?
Because that is the time frame and political climate we are talking about, not 2022 Canada and Russia
Государственные интересы остаются государственными интересам при любой форме власти. Если у Вас произойдет утечка ядовитых веществ в прибрежные воды от какого-нибудь важного для государства предприятия и это будет угрожать политической стабильности власти при недовольстве населения, то опять применят такой фокус как дезинформацию.
И на 1959 год - подобные истории имелись и в Канаде. Все это в Ваших газетах - тех именно лет. Изучайте историю Вашей страны - и Вам станет понятно. Нет стран - идеальной как Вы понимаете честности. И в Канаде - есть группы населения, которые ставятся ниже других. Коренные народы Северной Америки - это далеко не французы. Почитайте как против них работает политика дезинформации.
Хотя о чем я? Вы же внучка потомственного зверолова. Такого, кто вытеснил с охотничьих угодий веками живших там индейцев и от них и мокрого места не осталось. И Вам внушили - что это правильно. Это теперь Ваше место - под солнцем над Канадою...
State interests remain state interests under any form of government. If you leak toxic substances into coastal waters from some important enterprise for the state and this threatens the political stability of the authorities and the discontent of the population, then again they will use such a trick as misinformation.
And in 1959 - there were similar stories in Canada. All this is in your newspapers - of those exact years. Study the history of your country - and you will understand. There are no countries - ideal as you understand honesty.And in Canada - there are population groups that are placed below others. The indigenous peoples of North America are far from French. Read how the policy of disinformation works against them.
Although what am I talking about? You are the granddaughter of a hereditary trapper. The one who drove out the Indians who lived there for centuries from the hunting grounds and there was not even a wet place left of them. And you were told - that this is correct. This is now your place - under the sun over Canada ...
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okay..... as far as I can tell you are saying that canada in1959 was a communist country with a dictator and people were sent to gulags as political prisoners totally comparable with the soviet union and that culture. got it
You also believe that my grandfather was so powerful that he single handedly drove out the first nations from northern ontario (because he was a trapper? even though first nations didn't have metal before contact but whatever) got it
I am not sure what the first nations and the french have to do with it and why you think he was a hereditary trapper since he was the first generation to come over from Scotland in my paternal side of the family and be a trapper but in 100% honesty, I don't care why you think that
this incident took place in 1959 communist soviet union, and therefore what happens there is what is pertinent to this discussion although it is obvious that you do not understand what pertinent means so I am wasting my time talking to you
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this incident took place in 1959 communist soviet union, and therefore what happens there is what is pertinent to this discussion although it is obvious that you do not understand what pertinent means so I am wasting my time talking to you
Чарлз, вы на самом деле зря тратите время. Своё, в том числе.
Charles, you are really wasting your time. Yours, including.
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Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Down came the Tzar, up goes the Communist. Now you say the Communist earn no trust so down they go. Why would the Communist lie about nine lonely people on a distant mountain who took a chance and froze? They were not rich, they had no power, they were deep in Soviet territory. They were loyal to the State. They had intelligence and skills. They were no threat. They were respected and accepted by their school. They acted appropriately for their age. There was certainly no bomb and certainly no soldiers to bother them.
Follow the money! If the hikers were killed, show who got a payment. Show who becomes a hero of the Soviet by murder. Show who can silence the familiesmof the dead and Yuri Yuden during his life.
A natural disaster in the snow makes much more sense. No more dreaming with eyes open.
If a natural disaster makes the most sense, then that should be an open and shut case as it is in every single northern country who has to deal with people freezing to death.
If this was a natural event, then it should have happened before and since and all the evidence should point to it and there is normally zero disagreement with what happened to X when they froze to death
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Чарлз, вы на самом деле зря тратите время. Своё, в том числе.
Charles, you are really wasting your time. Yours, including.
Зайцев, у Вас тоже ощущение что бомбу натягивают на Гулаг? А это уже по законам криминалистики - следы, улика...
Zaitsev, do you also have the feeling that a bomb is being pulled on the Gulag? And this is already according to the laws of forensic science - traces, evidence ...
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Tenne, I agree that is should be open and shut. Why the mystery? I think that if it were an avalanche, the dead,would be found under the fan of snow. If it was murder, there would be no doubt. If it was an accident, there should be traces ( like a fallen tree in the woods with tent and blood on it).
It is not open and shut because of the bodies, the tent and away the investigation was done. If there is no deathbed confession, if there is no money trail, if there is no evidence in the forest, then we are left with death by natural causes, which is exactly what the evidence shows. It is just not that satisfying when conspiracy is much more exciting.
What do you think, my friend?
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I have my doubts it was natural because of my own experiences in the forest, winter camping and cross country ski trips.
I can not see 9 experienced outdoor people panicking at the same time. One maybe or two but not 9, including a combat veteran.
The 'evidence' as presented makes no sense to me:
walking in bare feet or socks in -17 does not leave freezing foot prints. walking in slush that freezes does but this happened at night and the temps were not near freezing
not lighting the camp stove, the very first priority when winter camping is to get a source of heat established. it is necessary for both heat and melting snow to drink, both of which are vital in these conditions. eating snow as a source of moisture is only done in extreme cases because it lowers the inner body temps too much to be worth it
walking down a slope for that far and then making a sharp turn to get to a cedar? if there is an avalanche or threat, you DO NOT go down hill, you go sideways into the trees
lighting a fire with frozen hands, in the dark (a full moon isn't much help under trees) finding tinder and firewood in the dark and with the wounds on the hands
the injuries do not make sense for a natural occurrence, nor does leaving a lit fire,
so I believe there was a cover up, a poorly done one because THEY were not used to having to cover things up. when THEY said X happened, everyone said yes it did, as was pointed out, these were people who questions would be asked
I do not believe it was intention murder, it was an accident that would expose or embarrass someone
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This is an excellent response, thanks.
I can not see 9 experienced outdoor people panicking at the same time. One maybe or two but not 9, including a combat veteran.
I agree, but what would affect them and force their action? The interior of the tent did not seem to point to a panic response.
The 'evidence' as presented makes no sense to me:
walking in bare feet or socks in -17 does not leave freezing foot prints. walking in slush that freezes does but this happened at night and the temps were not near freezing
Is not -1< far below freezing? Walking in bare feet of socks is simply crazy. I agree.
not lighting the camp stove, the very first priority when winter camping is to get a source of heat established. it is necessary for both heat and melting snow to drink, both of which are vital in these conditions. eating snow as a source of moisture is only done in extreme cases because it lowers the inner body temps too much to be worth it
I would certainly want a warming fire and hot food in those conditions.
walking down a slope for that far and then making a sharp turn to get to a cedar? if there is an avalanche or threat, you DO NOT go down hill, you go sideways into the trees
I believe that is true. It reminds me of swimming sideways to get out of a rip current.
lighting a fire with frozen hands, in the dark (a full moon isn't much help under trees) finding tinder and firewood in the dark and with the wounds on the hands
And yet a fire seems to have been made. Could it be from the rescue party? It is improbable that criminals would start a fire, unless to warm themselves while others suffer.
the injuries do not make sense for a natural occurrence, nor does leaving a lit fire,
I do not know what injuries would make sense, to be honest,it would make sense to leave a lit fire by bringing some to the next location.
so I believe there was a cover up, a poorly done one because THEY were not used to having to cover things up. when THEY said X happened, everyone said yes it did, as was pointed out, these were people who questions would be asked
There lies the problem. Just what is there to cover up that that would cost nine lives? A fallen tree? Who would be to blame? A munition? How would anyone know where to look? Yuri Yuden really suspected a military SNAFU. If so, someone knows, even today.
I do not believe it was intention murder, it was an accident that would expose or embarrass someone
That person was more important than the DPI 9. Any guesses?
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For me , he came up with the best motive .
shock1
Surely, you don't find a Kolevatov-assassination scenario credible?!
I disagree with his diagram and use of statistics.
In what ways?
Hi RMK.
I can't fully remember Charles scenario. I might have it saved on my posts. Any how, as I recall , it was the timeline of meetings at the railway station. I can't remember who's father it was that was killed. I get too busy trying to cross examine looking on the internet to double check but it seemed plausible.
[snip]
His illustration doesn't work when he spreads his fractures across the group. When he uses world wide statistics , all variables are lost. The the stats cover all fractures . For the sample, the fractures from RTA would need to be put together , then a pattern would appear, then question , were they wearing seat belts, then how old was the car, what model, did it have air bags etc.
Like wise, what are the stats for broken ribs by human violence, flali chest fractures etc. Ribs broken by land slides , so on. My understanding of the broken/fractured ribs is the were along a straight line. This implies that the force was applied over a large area of the chest. I don't think it's easy to do by human hands/feet /elbow. Possibly by having someone lie down, and then let the whole body weight of the attacker come down with force might do it. But it's a messy , inconvenient way to murder. IMO.
Well, OK, that's fair; in your post, you specifically referred to the "motive", and not to Charles' scenario as a whole. I regard his scenario as a a whole to be too far-fetched and to rely too much on unlikely coincidence. But, I will give him some credit for originality regarding the motive. There are other homicide theories that propose that only one member of Dyatlov's group was the target, with the others being "collateral damage"...BUT, the one being targeted is usually proposed to be Dubinina (because her big mouth got her in trouble) or Zolotaryov (because his mysterious past caught up with him). I've never seen a theory before that proposed Kolevatov as the the target!
Concerning the fractures...I understand the point you make about "all variables lost", and I do acknowledge here (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg18749#msg18749) that limitation of Charles' argument:
It's unfortunate that the study you cite concerns (as aforementioned) "all-cause" morbidity of bone fractures, and does not present statistics stratified by cause-of-injury (e.g., misadventure/accident versus assault versus self-inflicted), but I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of fractures occur due to misadventure or accident, and not due to human malice. That is, we can treat the bodily distribution of fractures reported in the GBDS as being "approximately" typical of accidental fractures.
Think of it like this: if the Dyatlov Pass Incident was due to some misadventure, is it not surprising that we observe not even one fractured humerus, radius, or ulna?
I agree with you to a point. It is the lack of broken/ fractured bones in the humerus, radius and ulna along with no reported fractures in the hands and wrists. Dislocation , removed finger nails , fracture eye sockets. Skin/ cloth in finger nails. Broken toes if in socks if fighting. None of this in the autopsy. There no sign for fight against humans. Obviously there's a tipping point , if the outsiders had a gun, you would run for it or take them on. Use your teeth head, fist etc. Other than the rib fractures, I would expect more injuries . They other injuries are too light? If that makes sense.
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I have a vision in my mind about kids in blow up Sumo wrestler suits fighting each other. It's a funny sight. With that in mind, I can't see ( no pun intended) hand to hand combat out there in the snow in the dead of winter, in a blizzard at night.
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To compare apples to apples, are you saying that 1959 canada was a communist country with a dictator and gulags where enemies of the state were sent to?
Вот пример сравнения яблока с яблоком.
Here is an example of apple to apple comparison.
https://www.science.org/toc/science/140/3564
SCIENCE
VOLUME 140|ISSUE 3564|19 APR 1963
Ring-shaped cloud seen at sunset on 28 February 1963 in northern Arizona and areas of nearby states. The height, as estimated from four photographs made in Tucson, Arizona, about 190 miles to the south of the cloud (which appeared overhead near Flagstaff), is about 35 kilometers. This photo was taken by Clarence E. Peterson of Bremerton, Washington, while he was looking almost due north from near Camp Verde, Arizona. The unusual nature of the cloud was evident to observers who noted its striking luminosity long after the sun had set at ground level. It was at least 11 kilometers higher than the upper limit of possible jet contrail formation, and was at least 5 kilometers higher than previously reported nacreous clouds of the arctic type. Its true nature is still unknown; more photos are being sought for triangulation purposes. See page 292.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.140.3564.292.b
То был неудачный запуск
28 февраля 1963 года с авиабазы Ванденберг была запущена ракета «Тор», которая вывела на орбиту спутник-шпион. Ракета сбилась с курса, и центр управления полетами взорвал ракету на высоте 44 км, прежде чем она смогла выйти на орбиту. В результате взрыва ракеты над юго-западом США появилось большое круглое облако. Из-за своей загадочной природы, появляющейся на очень большой высоте и видимой за сотни миль, облако привлекло всеобщее внимание и было опубликовано в средствах массовой информации.
Облако было показано на обложке журнала Science Magazine в апреле 1963 года, журнала Weatherwise Magazine в мае 1963 года, а полностраничное изображение было опубликовано в майском номере журнала Life Magazine . Профессор Джеймс Макдональд из Института физики атмосферы Университета Аризоны исследовал это явление и связал его с запуском ракеты «Тор» после контакта с военнослужащими на базе ВВС Ванденберг. Когда позднее записи о пусках были рассекречены, ВВС США опубликовали служебную записку, в которой объяснялось, что облако стало результатом военной операции.
That was a bad launch.
On February 28, 1963, a Thor rocket was launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base, which put a spy satellite into orbit. The rocket veered off course and mission control detonated the rocket at an altitude of 44 km before it could reach orbit. As a result of the rocket explosion, a large round cloud appeared over the southwestern United States. Due to its mysterious nature, appearing at a very high altitude and visible hundreds of miles away, the cloud has attracted worldwide attention and has been published in the media.
The cloud was featured on the cover of Science Magazine in April 1963, Weatherwise Magazine in May 1963, and a full-page image was published in the May issue of Life Magazine. Professor James McDonald of the Institute of Atmospheric Physics at the University of Arizona investigated the phenomenon and linked it to the launch of a Thor missile after contact with military personnel at Vandenberg Air Force Base. When the launch records were later declassified, the US Air Force released a memo explaining that the cloud was the result of a military operation.
Вот список произведенных запусков с информацией об удачном запуске и неудачном.
Here is a list of launches made with information about successful launch and failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Thor_DM-18_launches
Так сколько и где наблюдалось странных явлений в небе над США? И как скоро население получало ответы о природе того, что оно наблюдало? А в это время что-то происходило и в Англии. Программа по развертыванию в Великобритании новых БРСД получила наименование "Project Emily". Для наблюдения и технической поддержки при развертывании новой системы оружия САК ВВС США в феврале 1958 года активировало 705-е стратегическое ракетное крыло на авиабазе Лэйкенхит, Великобритания. Оборудование и системы, подлежащие развертыванию, начали перебрасываться в Великобританию в августе 1958 года. Первая БРСД была передана Королевским ВВС в сентябре того же года. История умалчивает - о нештатных событиях при этой вооружаемости и разумеется обучению пользоваться новым оружием. А тактико-технические характеристик ракеты планировали её падение на Москву при записке из Англии.
Причем не только на Москву, но и дальше, по мишеням в глубине СССР.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGM-17_Thor
So how many and where were observed strange phenomena in the sky over the United States? And how soon did the population get answers about the nature of what they observed? At the same time, something was happening in England. The program for the deployment of new IRBMs in the UK was named "Project Emily". In February 1958, the US Air Force activated the 705th Strategic Missile Wing at Lakenheath Air Force Base, UK, to monitor and support the deployment of the new SAC weapon system. The equipment and systems to be deployed began moving to the UK in August 1958. The first IRBM was handed over to the Royal Air Force in September of the same year. History is silent about emergency events with this armament and, of course, learning to use new weapons. And the performance characteristics of the rocket planned its fall on Moscow with a note from England. And not only to Moscow, but also further, on targets in the depths of the USSR.
++++++++++++++++++
Так чем различаются яблоки? Где разница, если речь идет об интересах государства?
So how are apples different? Where is the difference when it comes to the interests of the state?
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Is not -1< far below freezing? Walking in bare feet of socks is simply crazy. I agree.
freezing rain officially starts at -0.1 so -1 isn't that cold and any snow from it, at least here where I live, would be rain or slush
I would certainly want a warming fire and hot food in those conditions.
the fire also has a very very important task of ensuring the clothing for the next day is dry, starting out in wet, damp clothing in winter is literally a killer so I can't think of a single reason to not have it lit
I believe that is true. It reminds me of swimming sideways to get out of a rip current.
I do not know what a rip current is so I will believe you.
And yet a fire seems to have been made. Could it be from the rescue party? It is improbable that criminals would start a fire, unless to warm themselves while others suffer.
we don't know when the fire was lit, it could have been there from another party or the criminals used it to flush out freezing victims (if you think the killers were there)
I do not know what injuries would make sense, to be honest,it would make sense to leave a lit fire by bringing some to the next location.
85.7% of deaths were due to asphyxiation, 8.9% were due to a combination of asphyxiation and trauma, and 5.4% were due to trauma alone. Head injuries were frequent in those killed solely by trauma.
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In an avalanche, the main danger is getting trapped by the ice it creates. when the snow comes down, the speed of it melts its self and when it stops moving it freezes so the person is trapped in ice.
That is why back country location devices are so important on the body, so the rescuers can find you and get you out of the ice pocket before you run out of oxygen.
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No one is arguing the point of an avalanche as we see on TV. A snow slope or slide is the argument,
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Is not -1< far below freezing? Walking in bare feet of socks is simply crazy. I agree.
freezing rain officially starts at -0.1 so -1 isn't that cold and any snow from it, at least here where I live, would be rain or slush
I would certainly want a warming fire and hot food in those conditions.
the fire also has a very very important task of ensuring the clothing for the next day is dry, starting out in wet, damp clothing in winter is literally a killer so I can't think of a single reason to not have it lit
I believe that is true. It reminds me of swimming sideways to get out of a rip current.
I do not know what a rip current is so I will believe you.
And yet a fire seems to have been made. Could it be from the rescue party? It is improbable that criminals would start a fire, unless to warm themselves while others suffer.
we don't know when the fire was lit, it could have been there from another party or the criminals used it to flush out freezing victims (if you think the killers were there)
I do not know what injuries would make sense, to be honest,it would make sense to leave a lit fire by bringing some to the next location.
85.7% of deaths were due to asphyxiation, 8.9% were due to a combination of asphyxiation and trauma, and 5.4% were due to trauma alone. Head injuries were frequent in those killed solely by trauma.
We can argue the temperature all day long, but the raised footprints were recorded. It happens, it is fact. Weather they are the foot prints from the dp9 or later , can be argued.
Drying clothes mean they get wet, older clothing , canvas etc is actually better than modern clothing in wicking sweat etc. We have weight v sweat. There would be little moisture from cold snow. Breathable clothes are important. I read somewhere that a person that went out in cold conditions would wear an under cloth , like a condom ( heaven forbidden) . The sweat would between his skin and and the condom skin. When making camp. Off with the body (condom suit). Then back into the normal clothing.
If the stove was used to dry clothes , it would only create steam. I'm no expert in such cold cold conditions.
But tourism is a big passtime in Russia. It shouldn't be a problem.
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I can only attest to what the conditions here are and that may have as much to do with humidity as anything. Wet clothing is only going to steam if it is put too near a heat source too quickly and the vast majority would be damp, not wet. If the clothing isn't too wet, you can dry it by sleeping with it so steam isn't an issue. Extra moisture freezing outside the tent, yes but the gain of dry clothing would be well worth that price.
Not sure where you are going with the inner layer because you would still have to take that layer off and dry it out before putting it back on the next morning. these were not disposable like condoms.
clothing always gets damp, snow lands in places it shouldn't from other skis, trying to sit down, falling, snow blowing etc so I am not sure it would ever be possible to do a hard ski in deep snow and not literally work up a sweat
It isn't a problem, these conditions, they are a fact of life. People deal with it. Here, where I live, we have special racks that go over the register to hold boots and gloves, hats etc open so the heat can dry them (boots and mitts upside down so fingers point to the ceiling so heat can enter). It's a long slow dry so even winter boots with rubber can be safely dried
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I can only attest to what the conditions here are and that may have as much to do with humidity as anything. Wet clothing is only going to steam if it is put too near a heat source too quickly and the vast majority would be damp, not wet. If the clothing isn't too wet, you can dry it by sleeping with it so steam isn't an issue. Extra moisture freezing outside the tent, yes but the gain of dry clothing would be well worth that price.
Not sure where you are going with the inner layer because you would still have to take that layer off and dry it out before putting it back on the next morning. these were not disposable like condoms.
clothing always gets damp, snow lands in places it shouldn't from other skis, trying to sit down, falling, snow blowing etc so I am not sure it would ever be possible to do a hard ski in deep snow and not literally work up a sweat
It isn't a problem, these conditions, they are a fact of life. People deal with it. Here, where I live, we have special racks that go over the register to hold boots and gloves, hats etc open so the heat can dry them (boots and mitts upside down so fingers point to the ceiling so heat can enter). It's a long slow dry so even winter boots with rubber can be safely dried
My apologies tenne.
People have been hiking for years, wool, rabbit, cotton, canvas clothes etc.
There are weaves of cloth that keep heat and avoid wind , whilst not freezing. It depends on exertion. It's a trade off.
The tourist/hikers, of USSR are no different to USA, Europe etc of that time period and clothing. Ww2 and ww1 were fought in cold climates. They all did not die from cold and they would not have had a heat source. Even the expositions to the south pole, or the north.
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um, yes the did, the amount of soldiers freezing to death in a country I won't name because it could cause a political fight right now is a very good example of how much mud, snow, cold and no way to dry offclothing are taking lives right now
soldiers froze to death regularly in WW2, they just found some frozen corpses I think in northern italy from WW2
they all had heat sources on artic trips and when that fuel ended, they died.
Even the Inuit had heat sources in their igloos (which were only temporary winter homes). they lit blubber candles in shells and with that and their body heat, were able to be somewhat comfortable. I have no personal experience in this but have read about it
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""We can argue the temperature all day long, but the raised footprints were recorded. It happens, it is fact. Weather they are the foot prints from the dp9 or later , can be argued.""
I am not sure what we are arguing about temperatures? What they were or how they feel or how they work to make frozen footsteps? If it is what there were, I can only go by what the official records say. If we are talking about what they feel like, then its a matter of perspective. it was -31 here yesterday afternoon with a wind chill of -42 so -1 to me is very warm. If you live where the winter temps are usually above freezing it is very cold. Or are we arguing the conditions needed to make the footprints in the first place?
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Следы-столбики не являются чем-то экзотическим и однократно случившимся.
Исследователи этой темы как раз попали на Перевал Дятлова и сами смогли наследить именно такую дорожку в 2013 году.
Они и в палатке скат резали и бежали вниз по склону в носках.
Представляете как давно это было? А некоторые только сейчас решают будут следы или нет. Гипотетически.
А у нас все давно - уже не гипотетически
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26054/2965513/
Traces-columns are not something exotic and happened once.
The researchers of this topic just got to the Dyatlov Pass and were able to inherit just such a path in 2013.
They cut the slope in the tent and ran down the slope in socks.
Guess how long ago that was? And some are only now deciding whether there will be traces or not. Hypothetically.
And we have everything for a long time - no longer hypothetically
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I would have thought you were familiar with raised foot prints tenne, or would have looked or researched.
Dry cold / snow is different to wet cold snow. The body is used for a heat source as you say and I think I just read the same article. I'm sure you will know, in tents and snow holes they can survive a night. Always nice to have a fire if possible.
There are various things you can do with sweat on clothes in very cold region's.
Cold becomes an issue when wet with wind, snow can be more manageable in certain conditions and temperatures . Possibly better than, mud , wet and cold. Everything should be fine, Especially if you have the equipment and plan for variables.
With the concept of the condom suit, every thing is dry. I'm sure I don't have to explain it.
There's no injuries to suggest a suitcase bomb.
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sorry, I guess I don't get what you mean by a condom suit then. I am seeing a layer that keeps the top layer dry from the skin? right? so how do you get that layer, the condom layer, dry to put it on the next day if it absorbed the moisture. I am not understanding what you are saying
Yes, I am familiar with raised footprints and wet snow. I am going by the official temps that I could find for that night and area and it was at least -12 and colder. Here, those temperatures do not produce wet snow so I did my print making in dry temperatures like those ones, not in ideal make foot print temps of -2 to +2 (or so here at least
I am not sure why you keep insisting that there are no injuries that could be from a blast when the official testimony is a force like a car hit some of them?
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sorry, I guess I don't get what you mean by a condom suit then. I am seeing a layer that keeps the top layer dry from the skin? right? so how do you get that layer, the condom layer, dry to put it on the next day if it absorbed the moisture. I am not understanding what you are saying
Yes, I am familiar with raised footprints and wet snow. I am going by the official temps that I could find for that night and area and it was at least -12 and colder. Here, those temperatures do not produce wet snow so I did my print making in dry temperatures like those ones, not in ideal make foot print temps of -2 to +2 (or so here at least
I am not sure why you keep insisting that there are no injuries that could be from a blast when the official testimony is a force like a car hit some of them?
It was a guy on you tube. It was used to keep the bottom layer dry . Depending on the wicking of moisture out from the body heat source. I would think it would freeze after you take it off or it could be rolled in the snow then brushed off. I believe they use this method when falling in freezing water. Survivali advice is recommended to roll in snow. It's not that relevent. Just a modern solution to an old problem. I think this why fur is superior for wicking properties .
The raised foot prints give us an indicator for the weather conditions, we can work backwards from there.
The force of being hit like a car , doesn't imply explosion. It implies an impact. I don't think there's any report of blast injuries.
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You argue in vain about temperature! But of course, one hundred percent result is not possible, but an approximate result can be obtained. The temperature is measured in the valley and forest on the night of February 1 every year for 10 years. And this is averaged. This gives you 90 percent correct results, if not one hundred percent. Unless, of course, there was an abnormal storm the night of the event. However, according to the available evidence, this does not seem to have happened.
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I am taking the temperatures that were supposed to be around the pass from this website.
https://dyatlovpass.com/investigation-materials-2?rbid=18461
Is there another table I should be looking at?
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Those temperatures look about right. Although the timeline doesn't... 4 hours to cover 1.5 miles? Also, -28C is listed as "low risk" for frostbite?
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Those temperatures look about right. Although the timeline doesn't... 4 hours to cover 1.5 miles? Also, -28C is listed as "low risk" for frostbite?
when the entire body is poorly dressed, the core temps fall very quickly so perhaps that explains the lack of frost bite? some of them were already deceased from hypothermia before the frost bite happened?