Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: amashilu on February 21, 2023, 12:28:52 PM
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Collecting evidence of other parties' presence, here is what I come up with. Is there more?
1. Flashlight on top of 200 mm of snow on the tent. On top of the snow.
Turned it on -- it worked. No battery I know of would turn on after being on top of a tent in below-zero weather for 3 weeks. Who put the flashlight there? Did the Mansi use Chinese flashlights?
Sharavin: The second strange thing is that the Chinese flashlight, which Slobtsov and I found during the excavation of the tent, was not on the tent canvas, but in the middle of a layer of snow 200mm thick.
2. Military puttees -- two of them.
3. 11th pair of skies, found outside the tent. The hikers had nine (arranged under the tent) and a tenth pair was in storage.
4. Bodies were moved after death.
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I think there's threads for each of these topics. I haven't time to find the link but I'm sure they exist on the forum.
I think all were explained apart from the puttees although I thought only one was found.
From what I can remember, the torch was said to belong to Igor. Possibly left hanging at entrance of tent for going outside for toilet. If there had been snow on the tent anyone dropping it or it falling from the tent ridge, it would end up on top of snow.
I think the skis were simply miscounted.
The bodies being moved after death is also speculation.
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Any lantern can stay on the snow as long as there is enough sun. The snow that falls on it at night will melt during the day with the heating of the Sun. And the lantern will stay on the snow. It seems that there has not been much snow for 25 days already. Because Igor and Zina partly appeared on the snow. The other lighthouse was dragged 500 meters down due to possible wind. Since the lantern is made of a slippery material and is cylindrical in shape, even if snow falls on it, it will melt under the influence of the snow sun. And if the flashlight is off, it can keep its power for months. Military supplies may be items left by soldiers who were there before the incident. The 11th pair of skis could be Yurinin. They may have brought it with them
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Yes, I am aware of these explanations, but they are not facts. They are "maybes." I am trying to take a fresh look.
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amashilu understand. I'm all for some new nugget of information that's been missed.
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amashilu understand. I'm all for some new nugget of information that's been missed.
1. A blanket on the corpses. The position of the corpses near the cedar.
M. Sharavin, quote: We claim that the corpses were covered with a brown blanket, and then it disappeared, it ended up in a tent. When we started sorting things out in the tent and found him there.
Search engine M. Sharavin, quote: on the 27th, after us, someone took the blankets off the corpses, the rescuers who came for the bodies on the 28th, did not find any blankets.
V. Brusnitsyn, quote: from the tent, first they took out several blankets rolled into a ball..
Tourists couldn't have blankets rolled up in a ball.
2. Bite marks on the guys' faces and hands indicate the presence of liquidators with dogs.
3. Signs of possible rape of Lyudmila Dubinina. (for more information, see the version "State order for liquidation)
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4. a piece of a broken ski.
Maslennikov 's radiogram from March 7, 1959:
"....... a piece of a broken ski is lying 20 meters from the tent"
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amashilu understand. I'm all for some new nugget of information that's been missed.
1. A blanket on the corpses. The position of the corpses near the cedar.
M. Sharavin, quote: We claim that the corpses were covered with a brown blanket, and then it disappeared, it ended up in a tent. When we started sorting things out in the tent and found him there.
Search engine M. Sharavin, quote: on the 27th, after us, someone took the blankets off the corpses, the rescuers who came for the bodies on the 28th, did not find any blankets.
V. Brusnitsyn, quote: from the tent, first they took out several blankets rolled into a ball..
Tourists couldn't have blankets rolled up in a ball.
2. Bite marks on the guys' faces and hands indicate the presence of liquidators with dogs.
3. Signs of possible rape of Lyudmila Dubinina. (for more information, see the version "State order for liquidation)
I believe I read elsewhere that the quote of being covered in a blanket was wrong and an assumption. It was corrected by the witness. It just looked like they were. ( I could be wrong)
There are at least two versions of the blankets in the tent and how they were found along with a number of contradictions. This suggests that things were moved by several people when the tent was first discovered and the documented factual recording a day or 2 later.
There is no reporting of dog bites, none. Not even by the witnesss of the exposed faces at the funeral.
There are no signs of rape. This your own speculation .
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There are no signs of rape. This your own speculation .
Signs of rape:
1. Lyudmila is dressed in someone else's underwear, which does not correspond to the harsh winter campaign.
Men's blue underpants. Women's belt with elastic garters. Stockings.. the stocking is lowered from the left leg. - This is from the conclusion of the forensic medical examination. Case sheet 355 act 4.2
. The swimsuit is torn in the crotch area and in the elastic band area. - sheet 355
3. There is a hematoma on the thigh. - sheet 366
4. A forensic medical expert describes the vaginal mucosa as purplish-red. At the same time, the presence of virginity is described, which could not be with a visible purplish-red mucous membrane.
5. Gynecologist A. Taranova was invited to the morgue.
I add:
the medical examiner made an incision of the uterus and found a small amount of mucus. (see screenshot). The contents of the uterus should be sent for examination, but there is no conclusion in the case file. Nowadays, gynecologist Taranova gave an interview to researcher Nechaev, but answered questions mainly: "I do not know, I do not remember..." And she made it clear that she did not intend to give out secrets. Everything testifies to the possible rape of Luda Dubinina, that is, this fact confirms the criminal version of the murder and nothing more.
and now argue and refute!!
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Sharavin: We ... saw a cedar down in the ravine, we went there. There was the body of Doroshenko covered with a blanket ...Nothing but a blanket around the fire was seen, a dark brown blanket.
Sharavin much later said he might have been mistaken, and that now he can't be sure it was a blanket.
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1. Flashlight on top of 200 mm of snow on the tent. On top of the snow.
Turned it on -- it worked. No battery I know of would turn on after being on top of a tent in below-zero weather for 3 weeks. Who put the flashlight there? Did the Mansi use Chinese flashlights?
Sharavin: The second strange thing is that the Chinese flashlight, which Slobtsov and I found during the excavation of the tent, was not on the tent canvas, but in the middle of a layer of snow 200mm thick.
2. Military puttees -- two of them.
3. 11th pair of skies, found outside the tent. The hikers had nine (arranged under the tent) and a tenth pair was in storage.
4. Bodies were moved after death.
5. A piece of a broken ski 20 m from the tent.
6. A large circle of swept snow, larger than that of helicopter rotor blades.
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Sharavin much later said he might have been mistaken, and that now he can't be sure it was a blanket.
M. Sharavin, interview from February 15, 2007. Quote: "We claim that the corpses were covered with a brown blanket, and then it disappeared after being found in the tent." I have no reason not to trust M. Sharavin, who was telling the whole truth. That is probably why his testimony is not in the case file. The presence of a blanket on a corpse is a very strong proof of the presence of outsiders.
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Sharavin much later said he might have been mistaken, and that now he can't be sure it was a blanket.
M. Sharavin, interview from February 15, 2007. Quote: "We claim that the corpses were covered with a brown blanket, and then it disappeared after being found in the tent." I have no reason not to trust M. Sharavin, who was telling the whole truth. That is probably why his testimony is not in the case file. The presence of a blanket on a corpse is a very strong proof of the presence of outsiders.
The quote does not make sense.
"We claim that the corpses were covered with a brown blanket, and then it disappeared after being found in the tent."
How do they know the blanket found in the tent was the same alleged blanket found covering them? . There is no sign of them being covered in a blanket at the ceder. ? Why would it even suggest the presence of outsiders?.
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There are no signs of rape. This your own speculation .
Signs of rape:
1. Lyudmila is dressed in someone else's underwear, which does not correspond to the harsh winter campaign.
Men's blue underpants. Women's belt with elastic garters. Stockings.. the stocking is lowered from the left leg. - This is from the conclusion of the forensic medical examination. Case sheet 355 act 4.2
. The swimsuit is torn in the crotch area and in the elastic band area. - sheet 355
3. There is a hematoma on the thigh. - sheet 366
4. A forensic medical expert describes the vaginal mucosa as purplish-red. At the same time, the presence of virginity is described, which could not be with a visible purplish-red mucous membrane.
5. Gynecologist A. Taranova was invited to the morgue.
I add:
the medical examiner made an incision of the uterus and found a small amount of mucus. (see screenshot). The contents of the uterus should be sent for examination, but there is no conclusion in the case file. Nowadays, gynecologist Taranova gave an interview to researcher Nechaev, but answered questions mainly: "I do not know, I do not remember..." And she made it clear that she did not intend to give out secrets. Everything testifies to the possible rape of Luda Dubinina, that is, this fact confirms the criminal version of the murder and nothing more.
and now argue and refute!!
Does one after being raped dress in some else's underware? Then keep there stockings on. Does a person or people make a hole in swim ware with the intention to rape? Then let them redress? Could the reply saying" I do not know or remember " mean just that , werethe interviewers asking if rape had occurred to which she wouldn't even know the answer.
There's nothing to refute . Your context is all over the place. To run your model of thinking to the extreme, they could have been all raped and put there pants back on. Maybe the Yuri's torn trousers ment they were were raped. Talk sense !!!
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1. Flashlight on top of 200 mm of snow on the tent. On top of the snow.
Turned it on -- it worked. No battery I know of would turn on after being on top of a tent in below-zero weather for 3 weeks. Who put the flashlight there? Did the Mansi use Chinese flashlights?
Sharavin: The second strange thing is that the Chinese flashlight, which Slobtsov and I found during the excavation of the tent, was not on the tent canvas, but in the middle of a layer of snow 200mm thick.
2. Military puttees -- two of them.
3. 11th pair of skies, found outside the tent. The hikers had nine (arranged under the tent) and a tenth pair was in storage.
4. Bodies were moved after death.
5. A piece of a broken ski 20 m from the tent.
6. A large circle of swept snow, larger than that of helicopter rotor blades.
Where is the report of the large circle of swept snow from and the 11 pair of skis from ?
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M.Sharavin: I would consider the discovery of the 10th pair of skis by the tent strange, since 9 pairs of skis were found under the tent, and a spare pair of skis was found in the storage. Yudin brought this up many times in front of me.
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Yep. And the context of the 8 pairs of ski's found under the tent would make 9 . Plus the fact they carried a pair set..left at the labaz? This is my understanding.
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M.Sharavin:
As for the area of blown snow, this was reported in a radiogram from the search.
The circle of blown snow was larger than that of a helicopter propeller.
Later, the book with a record of all radiograms from the search was removed by the "competent" authorities, the room was closed and the watch was stopped.
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Yep. And the context of the 8 pairs of ski's found under the tent would make 9 . Plus the fact they carried a pair set..left at the labaz? This is my understanding.
Sharavin says it was 9 pairs of skis under the tent, and one in storage. That makes 10. An 11th pair was found outside the tent.
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Yep. And the context of the 8 pairs of ski's found under the tent would make 9 . Plus the fact they carried a pair set..left at the labaz? This is my understanding.
Sharavin says it was 9 pairs of skis under the tent, and one in storage. That makes 10. An 11th pair was found outside the tent.
The reports to the skis found are different. It's the confusion by assumption of the reports that keep the stupidity of the DPI alive . The recording of inventory of gear is pointless to make any firm conclusion because they did not arrive at the tent from the context of a crime scene. No one was accurately observing and recording. They say that from the beginning, it was a search and rescue as in any country where people go missing.
For example , this blanket thing over the Yuri's may have some merit. The bodies of the Yuri's were found and one was transported to the bootrock. The other was left. One of the rescue team may have covered the body with a blanket with respect for the body. Then someone else observed the blanket but does not understand the chronology of events.
We are going over old ground , I suggest that you recommend that new members read old discussions that address these matters. The water is already muddy and we are making it more muddy and I don't understand why....
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M.Sharavin:
As for the area of blown snow, this was reported in a radiogram from the search.
The circle of blown snow was larger than that of a helicopter propeller.
Later, the book with a record of all radiograms from the search was removed by the "competent" authorities, the room was closed and the watch was stopped.
Can you give me the link for this. The reason being I want the location of the blown snow and the date. If the snow at the tent was firm/ firm and they had to use an axe and the skis to dig of the snow. , Then I have questions over the concept of rotor blades making an circle unless it was at the time of the search where it could possibly happen with fresh snow. Dates and time are everything. We have hard raised foot prints.
You are wrong regarding the first 3 bodies being found with little snow, we can see this from the two Yuri's at the ceder. Igor was mostly covered apart from what looks like his elbow and top of his head. The other two, Zina and Rustem were covered. You're adding to the myths. It is not helpful. Be factual.
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Vasily Ivanovich Tempalov, who was present at the examination of the tent, and flew on a helicopter over the area said: "What can I say, rockets had fallen, craters all around, I'm an artilleryman." he has been on the front-lines, a commander... batteries, 76 mm batteries, awarded with an order.
NAVIG: In what part did he see the craters during the flight?
GVN: In the same area, at the same time, on the same days.
NAVIG: There is no such information anywhere..
GVN: He also said: "There are craters there, I'm an gunner, I can tell when I see one!" said Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov, the prosecutor. This also led to a certain look at this event. It is clear that there is an explosion of a rocket, large or small, directed, whether it reached its target or not we can't say, of course, a test, not enemies...
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M.Sharavin:
As for the area of blown snow, this was reported in a radiogram from the search.
The circle of blown snow was larger than that of a helicopter propeller.
Later, the book with a record of all radiograms from the search was removed by the "competent" authorities, the room was closed and the watch was stopped.
Can you give me the link for this. The reason being I want the location of the blown snow and the date. If the snow at the tent was firm/ firm and they had to use an axe and the skis to dig of the snow. , Then I have questions over the concept of rotor blades making an circle unless it was at the time of the search where it could possibly happen with fresh snow. Dates and time are everything. We have hard raised foot prints.
You are wrong regarding the first 3 bodies being found with little snow, we can see this from the two Yuri's at the ceder. Igor was mostly covered apart from what looks like his elbow and top of his head. The other two, Zina and Rustem were covered. You're adding to the myths. It is not helpful. Be factual.
It is not I who is "wrong." It would be Sharavin.
Sometimes I think you are a plant, Ziljoe. Are you? Your role on the forum seems to be to refute and deny everyone else's posts.
A few years ago, I was elected president of a local nonprofit. Over the next few months, the new VP and I introduced many ideas and projects we would like to try. But the old-timers in the organization just shook their heads and said, "Nah, we tried that 5 years ago and it didn't work," or "Yeah, that won't work, we already tried that once." It taught me to be sad and sorry that people won't give something a try because it had once failed and they didn't think it could ever succeed.
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Yeah, the KGB planted me..... I've spent 8 years reading all theories. All have an element of possibility. It seems to break down to two camps. One it was a natural event, secondly there was a bunch of bad guys intent on killing the DP9. I have read enough to know that there is no evidence that bad guys chased the dp9 to their deaths.
It certainly can't be ruled out but motive, context are missing. There are far more strong arguments that it happened by a natural cause. To me , the inconsistency with statements and reports was to with the search and rescue effort. This amplifies the coverup.
If I refute or deny other people's posts , it is because there's nothing to suggest outsiders. I don't know how much you have read but you can see Zina and Rustem were covered with snow. The two Yuri's were under cover of the ceder where snow does not gather. The radio grams are quick , short communication to the people that be , not an exact report. , This is within the first day and there's still the slum chance that the others are alive.
Noone at the beginning of the search is looking for dead people. When they find the tent, there is no bodies, it's not a crime scene. They rummage through the tent, by all accounts , innocently. It's the following day that the investigators start to document. Poorly...
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Yes, thank you, just keep an open mind. Sometimes I notice people on this forum are Velcro stuck to a theory and defend it like their life depended on it. A little daylight and room for question is a good thing.
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Vasily Ivanovich Tempalov, who was present at the examination of the tent, and flew on a helicopter over the area said: "What can I say, rockets had fallen, craters all around, I'm an artilleryman." he has been on the front-lines, a commander... batteries, 76 mm batteries, awarded with an order.
NAVIG: In what part did he see the craters during the flight?
GVN: In the same area, at the same time, on the same days.
NAVIG: There is no such information anywhere..
GVN: He also said: "There are craters there, I'm an gunner, I can tell when I see one!" said Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov, the prosecutor. This also led to a certain look at this event. It is clear that there is an explosion of a rocket, large or small, directed, whether it reached its target or not we can't say, of course, a test, not enemies...
I will need to re read this. As far as I can remember it was dismissed by other forum members, across various forums. If he saw them so would all the searchers , students , Mansi etc.
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You ARE a plant. Your role is to discourage us all from asking questions!
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Yes, thank you, just keep an open mind. Sometimes I notice people on this forum are Velcro stuck to a theory and defend it like their life depended on it. A little daylight and room for question is a good thing.
I appreciate your observation, I am like velcro but without the adjoining piece. A little question, or a lot of question is a great thing. Please excuse my obvious frustration , it's just been discussed before. I feel obligated to direct to the previous debates where such conversation has taken place but I seriously can't be bothered. It's a bit frustrating to watch a conversation repeat. That's my grump. It's not directed at you. I'll put it down to dp9 burnout on my comments. X
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And I am sorry that after 8 years, you are tired and jaded.
I wish you weren't. You have a keen old brain and I'd like to make use of it.
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You ARE a plant. Your role is to discourage us all from asking questions!
Yep, everytime I stop a question being asked the Russians send me a chilled vodka . ( Although I did ask for a private yacht) . They do lie.... nea1
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And I am sorry that after 8 years, you are tired and jaded.
I wish you weren't. You have a keen old brain and I'd like to make use of it.
Bless you. It's just all been discussed. Unless someone at the time comes out with hard evidence or direct context it will remain the same. The lack of anyone involved coming forward by now only adds to the fact that the government were not involved. If all the events can be argued that it happened under a natural occurrence, which I believe they can, then that's what we are left with. Just need to cross t's and dot the I's....
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By the way, in response to your thinly disguised suggestion that "new members" read the old posts ... I have read through all the old posts on this forum. dance1 Yup, all 30 pages. For example, I saw how many times MDGross tried to discuss the flashlight but how those conversations didn't get much traction, though they should have. That is one thing that inspired me to bring it up now and fold it into a larger topic of "all" the possible evidence of outsiders being present. Looking for traction in an already-trampled field.
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By the way, I have read through all the old posts on this forum. thanky1 yup, all 30 pages. I saw, for example, how many times MDGross tried to bring up the flashlight, but the resulting conversations did not seem to get much traction. This is one of the things that inspired me to try to gather all the apparent evidence of other people being present ... Looking for traction in an already well-trampled field.
No probs. The speculation that I can recall is.
1) left at the entrance of tent for pee breaks, may have fallen down on collapse of tent.
2) left there when exiting the tent from snow collapse.
3) potentially left there by first searchers,
4)outsiders in some capacity.
5) that it was Igor's actual torch.
It may have been buried and exposed several times over the 3 weeks. There is argument that the batteries would still work after 3 weeks irrelevant of the cold( I'm sure it's in this forum) . I am no expert on 1950's batteries , USSR or west...
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And what happens when you apply your own logic?
Mine says, if it was left there by one of the hikers 3 weeks ago, it should have at least SOME snow on it, and the battery would most likely be dead. (We used to bring our car battery inside at night and put it back in the morning or it wouldn't start. Three weeks and there would be no hope of resurrection!)
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Just for the sake of clarification,,just exactly where was the alleged flashlight with regards to the tent? Was,it on the upright tent poles, laid on top of the collapsed middle, or on the ground above or below the tent? Was it pointing upslope or,downslope? Was it it secured with a lanyard? Was it painted in Russian military colors or was it unpainted metal? Were the batteries civilian or military issue?
Of significance is that if the flashlight was found on the snow pile in the middle of the collapsed tent, then the slab slip proceeded the placement of the light. Too, it borders on the absurd to think nine people who just cut their way out of a tent at night after the slide would leave it there if they were headed for the woods, they would carry it for illumination! Too we must recall that as soon as the tent was found, human impact contaminated the scene.However, if the light was on a lanyard on a tent pole then it may safely be assumed it was there for the user to return to the tent after evacuating bladder and bowel a discrete distance away.
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There's nothing to refute . Your context is all over the place. To run your model of thinking to the extreme, they could have been all raped and put there pants back on. Maybe the Yuri's torn trousers ment they were were raped. Talk sense !!!
Speak sensibly! I don't understand your logic! Do you really think that after the rape, the underwear will not be torn? Naturally, underwear had to be changed when washing corpses in the morgue. Lyudmila was dressed absurdly in what was found in the Gulag. And this proves the presence of outsiders. We think too straightforwardly.
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There's nothing to refute . Your context is all over the place. To run your model of thinking to the extreme, they could have been all raped and put there pants back on. Maybe the Yuri's torn trousers ment they were were raped. Talk sense !!!
Speak sensibly! I don't understand your logic! Do you really think that after the rape, the underwear will not be torn? Naturally, underwear had to be changed when washing corpses in the morgue. Lyudmila was dressed absurdly in what was found in the Gulag. And this proves the presence of outsiders. We think too straightforwardly.
Case solved then,they were liquidated by the liquidators from the allegations from wanting to leave the country which was unfounded , had their faces chewed by dogs after running around the slope , then raped in - 20c and it was all hidden from the public, along with your book.
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Ziljoe
Everything that aroused the slightest suspicion of the presence of outsiders was hidden or destroyed. I think that Lyudmila's real, torn underwear was thrown into the fire. The investigator did not take the remains of the fire for analysis. The tragedy at the pass is a big criminal scam. Your version of "died of freezing".- this conclusion was sought by criminal authorities who killed innocent guys in order to keep their warm official places.
Journalist Yuri Yarovoy, who was present at the pass in 1959, wrote a book. Its original version specifically stated: "THERE WAS A CONTRACT KILLING HERE," Akishev said at a 2017 conference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9frgXcLvuA&t=61s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9frgXcLvuA&t=61s)
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Case solved then,they were liquidated by the liquidators from the allegations from wanting to leave the country which was unfounded , had their faces chewed by dogs after running around the slope , then raped in - 20c and it was all hidden from the public, along with your book.
You're fooling around. Yes, the guys had to fight and run away from the liquidators with dogs. The murder of 9 young guys is not an easy story. There's no point in talking to you. You think like an oak table. Stay with your opinion.
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Case solved then,they were liquidated by the liquidators from the allegations from wanting to leave the country which was unfounded , had their faces chewed by dogs after running around the slope , then raped in - 20c and it was all hidden from the public, along with your book.
You're fooling around. Yes, the guys had to fight and run away from the liquidators with dogs. The murder of 9 young guys is not an easy story. There's no point in talking to you. You think like an oak table. Stay with your opinion.
Unfortunately there is no subtitles with your videos. You say they were murdered , I don't know what you want or expect me to say?
Trained dogs don't bite the face, they go for the thigh or arm. Dogs don't nip a face with one bite and release their hold.
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Trained dogs don't bite the face, they go for the thigh or arm. Dogs don't nip a face with one bite and release their hold.
really??
(https://i.ibb.co/thzFFyw/maxresdefault.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/JFLfQFs/e31540dc9cb1ea4601fa863c9b688f25.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/YWm0zrH/1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/GVmrwPQ/3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Trained dogs don't bite the face, they go for the thigh or arm. Dogs don't nip a face with one bite and release their hold.
really??
(https://i.ibb.co/thzFFyw/maxresdefault.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/JFLfQFs/e31540dc9cb1ea4601fa863c9b688f25.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/YWm0zrH/1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/GVmrwPQ/3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Your first picture here is of a dog being trained. The man is in a suit to protect him when getting pulled down.. You will notice he has no face protection.
In your second photo, it's a stray dog that bites the child when the child approached the sleeping dog.
Your third picture looks like a dog nip to the face.
Your forth picture is from the funeral I believe. I do not recall any observer recording dog bites or any other type of bite.
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By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.
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Returning to the topic, regarding evidence of other parties, the sticking point is timing. All evidence for murder, assault and induced mayhem are ex post facto arguements. They can be put down to rescue/recovery artifacts, post morten physicalmchanges and a not so subtle desire for recognition, then and now. The only single explanation which need not be defended by these curious spins on the facts is a weather related tragedy. The hikers were I'll equipped, not cohesive as a group, overly confident of their abilities in exploring a poorly mapped area. They were not equal to the Russian winter.
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The den is evidence of other people in my opinion. I can see no way that 4 people can dig a den 3.5 m deep in hard packed snow, based on the photos and being called a snow drift, with their bare hands, with no proper winter wear in the middle of the night. a knife sheath was found there only, not the knife, so either the initial report was wrong or it was stolen. given that corruption was investigating corruption, thinking we are going to find any truth shows how naive we are
" Kurikov followed some small fir tree branches in the snow till 50 m (164 ft) down from the cedar they led into the snowdrift. Rescuers began to dig and at a depth of 3.5 m they found cut branches covered with clothes"
the torch found down the slope shows other parties because it seems strange that they would they had time to grab a flashlight but not clothing. If anyone was outside with a lit flashlight, then there would be no reason to run from the 'unknown force' because they had light outside the tent to see it. If they were worried about a slab avalanche, they had a lit flashlight to see the snow
"Second flashlight was found switched on and depleted battery 450m down the slope."
bodies were repositioned, although this could have been done by the other members, it is still mind boggling that they sat there? while two members died of hypothermia, turned them over and then left.
"Livor mortis spots were located at the back of the neck, torso and extremities, which was not consistent with the position of the body in which it was found. This means the body was moved some time after the blood stopped circulating." Yuri Doroshenko
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The den is evidence of other people in my opinion. I can see no way that 4 people can dig a den 3.5 m deep in hard packed snow, based on the photos and being called a snow drift, with their bare hands, with no proper winter wear in the middle of the night. a knife sheath was found there only, not the knife, so either the initial report was wrong or it was stolen. given that corruption was investigating corruption, thinking we are going to find any truth shows how naive we are
" Kurikov followed some small fir tree branches in the snow till 50 m (164 ft) down from the cedar they led into the snowdrift. Rescuers began to dig and at a depth of 3.5 m they found cut branches covered with clothes"
the torch found down the slope shows other parties because it seems strange that they would they had time to grab a flashlight but not clothing. If anyone was outside with a lit flashlight, then there would be no reason to run from the 'unknown force' because they had light outside the tent to see it. If they were worried about a slab avalanche, they had a lit flashlight to see the snow
"Second flashlight was found switched on and depleted battery 450m down the slope."
bodies were repositioned, although this could have been done by the other members, it is still mind boggling that they sat there? while two members died of hypothermia, turned them over and then left.
"Livor mortis spots were located at the back of the neck, torso and extremities, which was not consistent with the position of the body in which it was found. This means the body was moved some time after the blood stopped circulating." Yuri Doroshenko
And yet, in spite of the stated difficulties, four people were found embedded in that cave. They got there some how, some way. This same overburden of heavy snow could well be the source of the crushing injuries.
For me, the depleted flashlight indicates it was used at night. Since it is not military issue, I think that the hikers had blinding wintry darkness. The light was likely lost when someone took a tumble, or jettisoned as spent. Significantly, it implies there was a transit to the woods from the slope, not the reverse. Again, this points to the tent always being on 1079.
I think it possible, assuming that livor mortis was described at autopsy, not in the field, Igor may well have been turned after death. I opt for Rustem doing it, It strikes me as odd that a Mansi would turn him over and leave him that way. It I simply too obvious a hint there was tampering before the rescue effort. As a Mansi who wished for no trouble, you would think Igor would be returned to his original position.
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By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.
We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.
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And yet, in spite of the stated difficulties, four people were found embedded in that cave. They got there some how, some way. This same overburden of heavy snow could well be the source of the crushing injuries.
No, they were not found in the den, they were found in the ravine,
"20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959."
so how was the den built then? if a theory is a correct one, it will explain everything. The presence of other people at the site would explain it being dug by them, not the 9
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By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.
We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.
I can't see an edit option after posting. ?
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And yet, in spite of the stated difficulties, four people were found embedded in that cave. They got there some how, some way. This same overburden of heavy snow could well be the source of the crushing injuries.
No, they were not found in the den, they were found in the ravine,
"20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959."
so how was the den built then? if a theory is a correct one, it will explain everything. The presence of other people at the site would explain it being dug by them, not the 9
The den was 6m away from the ravine 4 , maybe less. The hard snow was found when digging down to the ravine 4 . This is an indication of snow collapsing at some point.
We have the fractures and fractured ribs injuries , hard snow and 2-3 meters of snow above the ravine 4 . They are found lying horizontal underneath a mass of snow, at the bottom of a stream/ravine.
To make a den , you can cut into a snow bank, slide down the snowbank or use the trunk of a small tree that may be available. It looks like they managed to cut some tree's . Also it is possible that there was a natural snow cave or snow bridge , partially existing that the ravine 4 utilised.
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The den was 6m away from the ravine 4 , maybe less. The hard snow was found when digging down to the ravine 4 . This is an indication of snow collapsing at some point.
Where did you find this information?
""20 m from the den, a probe 4 m deep came out with a fragment of flesh. They started to dig. Dubinina's body was found in the ravine on may 5th, 1959.""
so from what I can find, the bodies were 20 m from the den, there is no evidence of snow collapse at the den and there is flooring and clothing on the floor of the den in 4 seats
"The clothes on a bed of cut branches made 4 seats"
so where is the collapse? the den? or the ravine? both are seperate areas
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(https://i.ibb.co/PD4bNfc/den.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLcN4Wq)
This is the den, there are no trees around it, no bodies, no bank, no evidence of the creek. Are we talking about the same den? just to clarify that we are discussing the same place
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Sheet 341
PROTOCOL
Inspection of the scene where the bodies were found
On May 6, 1959, the prosecutor of city of Ivdel in Sverdlovsk region Jr Counselor of Justice TEMPALOV, in the presence of witnesses Dilevich Yuri Davydovich, address city of Kiev, Cominterna St. №12 room 11, Fyodorov Vadim Ivanovich, address city of Sverdlovsk, Stachek St. №19, apt. 222 and Artyupov Georgiy Semyonovich address city of Sverdlovsk .......... wrote this protocol of the scene where the 4 bodies were found. On the slope of the west side of height 880 in the ravine of a creek 50 meters from the known cedar were found four bodies of them three men and one woman. The body of the woman is identified as Lyudmila Dubinina. The bodies of men can not be identified without lifting them.
All bodies are in the water. They were excavated from the snow from 2.5 meters to 2 meters deep. Two men and a third lay their heads to the north along the stream. Dubinina's body lay in the opposite direction with her head against the current of the stream. Dubinina is wearing a scarf on her head, a yellow tank top, a checkered shirt and two sweaters, one gray one of another dark color, on the legs dark leggings and brown ski trousers, on the feet on one 2 woolen socks, the right foot is wrapped in half of a sweater of beige color. on the back of her head and neck there are signs of damage from the probe to which testified citizen Astenadze V. M., who found Dubinina. Her body has decayed. The first body of a man is dressed in a khaki storm jacket on his first hand are two watches brands "Pobeda" and "Sportivnye" the watches show - pobeda 38 minutes past 9 hours, and the sportivnye 15 minutes past 9 hours, the head and legs of this body are not visible, i.e. not the whole body is dug out from under the snow. And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream. The lega are not visible, since they are not fully excavated from under the snow. The bodies have decayed. The bodies are photographed. The bodies should be immediately taken out from the stream, they can further decompose even more and they can be carried away by the stream, because the current is very fast. Up the creek in a distance of six meters along the tracks a den (http://)was found at a depth of 3 to 2.5 meters. The flooring consists of 14 fir tree and 1 birch tops in the snow. Items were found on top of the flooring.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343?lid=1
If you scroll to sheet 343 you will see the diagram. There are reports that it was less than 6meters. The den and the ravine are different locations. The den is the one in the photo that you provide with the sticks at the bottom. The ravine 4 are suggested to have made or found a snow hole or snow cave in the ravine . This is potentially formed by overhangs of the banks eventually joining over the stream and/ or its banks. Snow holes and snow bridges occur naturally , in the right condtions , for example, where snow can be several meters deep over undulating terrain.
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Your 20 meters might be 20 feet?
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By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.
We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.
I can edit after posting. And am not moderator nor big rating user.
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By the way, you can edit, too. We all can. You have a period of five minutes from the point of posting.
We can't. I suspect it's five minutes from clicking "Reply" and by the time you click "Post", it's already past those five minutes. Or else the editing feature was specifically disabled for me.
I can edit after posting. And am not moderator nor big rating user.
Oi..... I resemble that remark.
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People who do horrible things to other people normally don’t like to leave evidence of their presence at the scene of the crime for obvious reasons. They will make sure to take anything they brought with them, put anything back that they moved and will generally attempt to leave the scene the way they found it, or at least the way it should look, given the scenario they’re trying to push. If someone did murder these students, then the obvious scenario they were going for was that the students’ death was the result of an accident or nature. Hence, an abandoned tent, sitting on the side of the mountain for several weeks, was the most believable scenario and least nefarious one they could recreate. Why they would go leaving their shoes behind or placing a flashlight on a pile on snow on the top of the tent, which would create questions in anyone’s mind, is beyond me. And they had weeks to clean up after themselves. Furthermore, even if people were there, it doesn’t mean necessarily that they had anything to do with what happened. There are other reasons a person may have found the tent and not said anything about it.
For instance, I will admit that the guide telling Sharavin about this place with a steep cliff or something and then Sharavin and his companion going to find it only to discover the tent when they did, sounds very contrived, as if the man knew it was there, and was wanting Sharavin to find it without revealing that he already knew about it. Of course, that’s just my “read” on the situation. Even if true, though, it does sort of make sense that he would engineer such a scenario to deflect suspicion from himself, even if he wasn’t involved in the hikers’ death at all. Sharavin was a friend of the Dyatlov group, or at least an acquaintance who was concerned. Also, his time between when the group disappeared and they found the tent was probably better accounted for, meaning he had a better alibi. And he probably didn’t have a criminal record. The same might not be able to be said for the guide, or indeed many of the other people who might have come across the tent in the three weeks it sat there. The authorities were already suspicious of the Mansi, and that’s even before they really had anything to be suspicious about.
And if you’re argument against that is that it’s callous and selfish to not report an abandoned tent to the authorities the moment you find it because people’s lives are at stake, well, I hate to break it to you, but there are far more callous and selfish people in this world than there are murderers and rapists. Of course, I’m not implying that any specific person is like that or even that it was a factor in this case. I’ve never seen any evidence that’s convinced me that anyone found the tent and didn’t report it. And Sharavan’s vaguely suspicious story about the guide doesn’t count as evidence either. It’s just that for some reason, not only do people tend to fail to take the logistics of the whole thing into consideration, but they immediately decide on the most nefarious and sometimes fantastic scenario possible before ruling out the mundane and the common. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There just isn’t that in this case for would-be attackers leaving ice picks, flashlights, and footwear all over the place when they had three weeks to make sure they didn’t do that.
As for Luda’s underwear, it doesn’t really follow naturally that she was raped. Despite the arguments to the contrary, I’m still of the opinion that her main problem on the trip was PMS. Women can sometimes have the symptoms of a menstruation cycle without little to no discharge, and it’s a highly underreported problem among female athletes that their menstruation cycles are anything but normal or regular. That would also explain the discharge in her vagina.
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Head assassin, " Let's kill these hikers and make it look like they did it to themselves."
Assasinationettes "Cool beans! But we can't get a fire going to make our cocoa"
Head assassin, " Well, go ahead and dig a big ol' square out of the snow, have your drinks and then get on with the other thing!"
Assaninationettes, " Right! Let's see, shovel, Check, junk to put on the floor, check, flashlight, uh... puttees, uh... are we going to get in trouble? "
Head assassin " Not to worry, nobody is going to miss it, just back home, but remember to pack up the ladder when you leave.
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It’s just that for some reason, not only do people tend to fail to take the logistics of the whole thing into consideration, but they immediately decide on the most nefarious and sometimes fantastic scenario possible before ruling out the mundane and the common. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There just isn’t that in this case for would-be attackers leaving ice picks, flashlights, and footwear all over the place when they had three weeks to make sure they didn’t do that.
Bad weather could kill poorly equipped and hungry tourists, but history and accumulated experience suggest that bad weather, an avalanche could not kill everyone! Someone would have survived.
Only the order to eliminate tourists leaves no chance!
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Head assassin, " Let's kill these hikers and make it look like they did it to themselves."
Assasinationettes "Cool beans! But we can't get a fire going to make our cocoa"
Head assassin, " Well, go ahead and dig a big ol' square out of the snow, have your drinks and then get on with the other thing!"
Assaninationettes, " Right! Let's see, shovel, Check, junk to put on the floor, check, flashlight, uh... puttees, uh... are we going to get in trouble? "
Head assassin " Not to worry, nobody is going to miss it, just back home, but remember to pack up the ladder when you leave.
so what is your explanation of how 4 people without proper equipment, in the middle of the night, without proper winter wear, were able to dig out the den and pile cut branches on the bottom of it?
I personally would love to understand how they did it?
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Up the creek in a distance of six meters along the tracks a den was found at a depth of 3 to 2.5 meters. The flooring consists of 14 fir tree and 1 birch tops in the snow. Items were found on top of the flooring.
thank you for posting this. I will investigate what I thought I saw and see if i can find it again
the location of the ravine is still in doubt, 3 different spots were indicated by searchers
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine
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The flashlight that was found
"Second flashlight was found switched on and depleted battery 450m down the slope."
still indicates to me that it was dropped by outsiders. If the group had a flashlight that was assumed to be working because it was switched on, then they would have seen if there was danger or not and been able to dig out warmer clothing
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It’s just that for some reason, not only do people tend to fail to take the logistics of the whole thing into consideration, but they immediately decide on the most nefarious and sometimes fantastic scenario possible before ruling out the mundane and the common. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There just isn’t that in this case for would-be attackers leaving ice picks, flashlights, and footwear all over the place when they had three weeks to make sure they didn’t do that.
Bad weather could kill poorly equipped and hungry tourists, but history and accumulated experience suggest that bad weather, an avalanche could not kill everyone! Someone would have survived.
Only the order to eliminate tourists leaves no chance!
Bad weather, avalanche, and being executed are not the only things that that could have happened. And, yes, an avalanche can kill an entire group of people. However, I never said I endorse any of those theories. I’ve made my disdain for the avalanche pretty clear, simply because it’s not the kind of place that can generate a killer avalanche. I only brought nature or accident up because if someone did kill them, that is presumably what they wanted people to believe. But the very things people are bringing up to discount those theories are the very things assassins would not do if they killed the hikers and then engaged in a cover-up.
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After the hikers were found, bit before transport to the morgue, they were kept where?
Dropped flashlight done by (1) half frozen DP9 (2) clumsy search party (3) clumsy killers (4) clumsy Manti. I choose 1.
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After the hikers were found, bit before transport to the morgue, they were kept where?
Dropped flashlight done by (1) half frozen DP9 (2) clumsy search party (3) clumsy killers (4) clumsy Manti. I choose 1.
okay, lets go with 1. if they had a flashlight that was presumably working to be carried with them, why would they not use it to see if there was anymore danger from ? or to dig out warm clothing?
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My guess would be that on the way down to the forest, the light was just strong to pierce the darkness and blowing snow to permit the leader to avoid the rocks along the way. I suspect the light was not used to rummage the tent at the time because the contents were inaccessible and the hurricane winds necessitate getting off the slope,,which they did as evidenced by tracks.
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but the tent was still standing enough that a jacket in the entrance or just outside the entrance, reports are vague. if the light could show rocks, it could show a jacket and a hurricane would blow the tent over, cover all the tracks and there is no way to walk calmly down a slope in hurricane force winds.
Not to mention hurricane force winds would have blown snow to cover a flashlight dropped on the ground so I'm not following your logic of a wind so strong it didn't blow the tent over, didn't cover the flashlights or their tracks but stopped them from searching the tent for clothing
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I think it is all a matter of sequence. In my mind all those described observations can be accounted for in a sequence, as opposed to looking at individual factoids and piecing them together as a puzzle. For me, it compares to piecing together a picture puzzle. Some success cam be had by matching up random pieces, but real progress is made when one starts at a corner and buildsmout from there. The events of Nature and human nature are unidirectional, there is no going back in time. I suggest we would all make gains by thinking that way. As a necessary first step, we must agree on the point of origin. I believe it started and evolved from the DP9's final camp on 1079.
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I think it is all a matter of sequence. In my mind all those described observations can be accounted for in a sequence, as opposed to looking at individual factoids and piecing them together as a puzzle. For me, it compares to piecing together a picture puzzle. Some success cam be had by matching up random pieces, but real progress is made when one starts at a corner and buildsmout from there. The events of Nature and human nature are unidirectional, there is no going back in time. I suggest we would all make gains by thinking that way. As a necessary first step, we must agree on the point of origin. I believe it started and evolved from the DP9's final camp on 1079.
so you are saying that a hurricane wind wouldn't blow down the tent, cover their tracks, blow away the flashlight but would stop them from looking in the tent for warm clothing? the truth will explain everything, it all has to be looked at. If it doesn't fit then that didn't happen.
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or to use your analogy of a puzzle, if I am understanding it properly, when the puzzle is completed properly, every single piece will fit.
We put a puzzle together one piece at a time, trying to make them fit the picture on the box. We have the picture on the box, the tent is set up, the stove isn't, the bodies are in the spots, the flashlight in on the slope and one on the tent, cut pieces of clothing from people beneath the cedar are found by the den.
How else does anyone solve a puzzle other than one piece at a time?
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The point is choosing between a random approach and a structured one. One can be random and lucky or structured and successful. Just dont apply this logic to games of chance or slot machines.
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If you have a path to understanding what happened, I'm pretty sure that is why all of us on are this forum and would like to know what it is. Could you lay out what steps you believe would lead to a successful understanding of this event? given the use of the term structured approach, what to you is structured?
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I subscribe to the official explanation recently advanced by Soviet authorities. To put is succinctly, the inclement weather and the inability of the tourists to make use of frozen streams slowed the ascent toward Dyatlov pass and Otorten. They offloaded and cached supplies and then proceeded to make camp on the slope of 1079, so as to not lose time, nor altitude. The conditions were such that a slab slide occurred forcing the hikers from their tent to the forest below etc, etc.. In other words, I have no questions as to the " how" of their deaths. They all died of hypothermia, some few coupled with falls, being fallen upon and burned. The "why" of their deaths is that they were not equal to the conditions. Further, they were poorly funded and equipped, not cohesive as a group and had inferior maps. In spite of individual bravery and sacrifice, the DP9 succumbed to the Russian Winter. There was no conspiracy, no cover up, no bogie men. All the political and social fall out that happened after the fact is just the classic NIMBY that happens when precious cargo. Occam's Razor.
For me, all banter and badgering that goes on in the forum is simply individuals more interested in spin and self aggrandizement. Follow the money.
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I subscribe to the official explanation recently advanced by Soviet authorities. To put is succinctly, the inclement weather and the inability of the tourists to make use of frozen streams slowed the ascent toward Dyatlov pass and Otorten. They offloaded and cached supplies and then proceeded to make camp on the slope of 1079, so as to not lose time, nor altitude. The conditions were such that a slab slide occurred forcing the hikers from their tent to the forest below etc, etc.. In other words, I have no questions as to the " how" of their deaths. They all died of hypothermia, some few coupled with falls, being fallen upon and burned. The "why" of their deaths is that they were not equal to the conditions. Further, they were poorly funded and equipped, not cohesive as a group and had inferior maps. In spite of individual bravery and sacrifice, the DP9 succumbed to the Russian Winter. There was no conspiracy, no cover up, no bogie men. All the political and social fall out that happened after the fact is just the classic NIMBY that happens when precious cargo. Occam's Razor.
For me, all banter and badgering that goes on in the forum is simply individuals more interested in spin and self aggrandizement. Follow the money.
thank you for clarifying that and just for curiosity sake, how many times posting the same thing makes an individual more interested in spin and self agrrandizement?
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Tenne, snarky responses speak volumes. Try to stifle those urges. You asked, I answered.
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Tenne, snarky responses speak volumes. Try to stifle those urges. You asked, I answered.
"thank you for clarifying that and just for curiosity sake, how many times posting the same thing makes an individual more interested in spin and self agrrandizement?"
so saying thank you and asking for more clarifying information, based on accusations you posted about what other people are interested in quote : "more interested in spin and self agrrandizement?"" is snarky. good to know.
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There is a SIN scam currently making the rounds in Canada. It starts with an official looking letter. Be advised.
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There is a SIN scam currently making the rounds in Canada. It starts with an official looking letter. Be advised.
and this has what to do with the evidence of other parties at the site? sorry you lost me. Not sure how a SIN scam in canada has anything to do with events in 1959 soviet union
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Civility.