Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Teddy on September 29, 2023, 04:16:06 AM
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The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass (https://dyatlovpass.com/radioctive-trace)
The radioactive contamination in the Dyatlov case is one of the most complicated, controversial and unclear subjects we could come across. On top of the mind boggling fact why did the lead investigator order a radioactive test only on the last four bodies found in May and not on the first found in February-March, why order the tests on first place and then not taking in consideration the outcome at all, we can not agree on what the results tell us. I have discussed the subject with seasoned Russian nuclear physicist Igor Pavlov, and nuclear power researcher graduate from Arizona State University Brian Pierce. From what I can understand their opinions on the Radiological Analysis Report (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377) do not overlap. Read more → (https://dyatlovpass.com/radioctive-trace)
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Thanks, Teddy, for the opportunity to comment on this!
I'm saddened that any further "debate" between me and Igor is impossible due to his passing. I would have loved to discuss all this with him, especially because I believe what I am hypothesizing would fit in with his and Teddy's theory published in their book 1079. While there are a few areas of disagreement, I see we also do agree on a lot.
I wrote what I did before being able to review Igor's notes, and I see we both came to the same conclusion that Levashov's radiological analysis does not necessarily require that a pure beta emitter contaminated the clothing, which would be extremely rare, but instead we both suggest that a combined beta/gamma emitter did it, such that beta emission was above the limit of detection and gamma emission below the limit of detection. Igor and I both consider a pure beta emitter, which he notes Rakitin suggested, as highly unlikely. Now I am not aware of Rakitin's hypothesis. I'd appreciate it if someone could please point me to it.
I am currently in grad school, so my time to respond is limited. But I'll address what I can over time here. To start, Igor and Teddy both note the nagging question of why Ivanov ordered the tests in the first place. Ivanov himself addresses this in the case files:
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-370
It seems Ivanov is referring here to criminal procedure, specifically "Articles 63 and 171 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR." I have no idea where to find the version of this Code of Criminal Procedure that would have been current in 1959, and it would be interesting to see what it says. Still, it seems to me by context that Ivanov did this because the procedures require it. Clearly, this kind of analysis can't be done on every unexplained death. It's my impression that Ivanov first became aware that the bodies' clothing, and possibly the bodies themselves, were emitting radiation, so it obligated him to order such an analysis. This makes sense. Dead bodies shouldn't be found wearing clothing with that much radioactive contamination, so it is important for a prosecutor to investigate. The prosecutor, once told, can't simply decide to ignore it.
Now how could Ivanov have known? Who told him? How did they know? Those are excellent questions, and I don't know.
I did speak with an acquaintance who does search and rescue in mountainous terrain for living hikers, and forensic search and recovery of hikers who likely died. She thought it very odd that anyone would bring something like a Geiger counter on a search and rescue mission. People who do S&R in this kind of terrain typically want to keep their weight down, so they carry the bare minimum essential gear. A Geiger counter, especially in 1959, is completely unnecessary weight so I can't picture anyone wanting to take one into a mountain range on a S&R mission.
Why did Ivanov order testing on just the last four bodies? My guess is that this has to do with timing. The first five bodies had been found, removed from the mountain, autopsied, returned to the families, and buried before the four in the ravine were found. If a Geiger counter were present, either on the mountain or at the morgue in Ivdel, but only after the last four bodies were discovered, and someone decided to switch it on and check the bodies for some unknown reason. found radiation to their surprise, and reported it to Ivanov, it sounds like this would have obligated Ivanov to order the analysis on these four bodies and their clothing.
It looks like Ivanov was doing the minimum amount of work necessary here. Levashov's report is very curious, but it doesn't suggest an acute health hazard either to the hikers when they were alive or the rescuers and investigators. A person trying to find the truth would want to know whether the other five bodies had contaminated clothing, too, or if it was just limited to the four in the ravine, but a prosecutor may be motivated to close the case quickly with minimal work and expense. I don't know whether the clothing found on the first five bodies was retained as evidence. If so, I'd think it would be easy to check. But the key here is that if the first five bodies were never initially checked with a Geiger counter, then they weren't known to be contaminated, and they weren't found in the same place as the bodies with contaminated clothing, so it would not have obligated Ivanov to investigate. In other words, Ivanov couldn't have ignored someone telling him that they found radioactive contamination on the last four bodies without violating criminal procedure. But if nobody ever checked whether the first five bodies were contaminated, nobody could have told him that they were contaminated too. Criminal procedure didn't require Ivanov to check, so he could safely ignore it and nobody could fault him for doing so. And why make extra work for himself and a technical expert if doing so wasn't required?
Because we don't know the circumstances around all this, we can't really know if the first five bodies were contaminated too but nobody bothered to check, or if only the four in the ravine were contaminated. This would be very interesting, but unless someone finds their clothing bagged up on a shelf in a dusty police warehouse somewhere, we'll probably never know.
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Fascinating information, to me at least. Ive largely ignored the radioactive element of the case, mostly as I know little about the topic and most of what i have read seems to be contradictory ( as is everything).
I've been reading and looking at old posts but I'm not sure of the chronological appearance of the Geiger counter.
Do we know when it was first introduced or reported being used at the search area?.
There is the report of it being a dosimeter,which I understand is a different tool to measure exposure to radiative transfer over a period of time. I don't know if that's a translation error and if its meant to be Geiger counter.
Perhaps the reason for taking a measuring device to the area ,( it has been suggested before) was that there had been numerous reports of balls, lights and large objects in the sky , these were told directly to Ivanov by the other hiking groups and first searcher's. The dates of these sightings coincide with the timeline of the dp9 .
There would seem to have been rocket or missile activities in the Urals and the need for a dosimeter may have in the first instance just been precaution?.
I guess it all depends on how the reports come in to those making the decisions and then , their reactions?
The first bodies are buried quite quickly, the main suspicion is that they froze after having to leave the tent . There's speculation of various theories within the search teams and one is the missile and Ivanov may have ordered the testing of the clothes as a result of having come to dead ends. He was just exploring all avenues perhaps.
As to why they found results on the clothes is definitely strange. I would have thought that the items , clothing in the tent and the tent itself should have been tested also?
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Another thought or reason for testing may have been the reported colour changes in the skin. If Ivanov wasn't aware of the changes to skin colour , this might be another reason to request the tests.
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Hi Ryan,
I've read your letter with your thoughts about potassium hydroxide (a cousin of lye, sodium hydroxide) as a possible explanation for the test results.
I have zero knowledge about your field of expertise but you explain it in a way that I can understand. ( I think) .
I'm probably going to embarrass myself but I'd like to ask a couple of questions, they may either lead to a possible reason for the contamination or stop my reasoning in its tracks.
Is it a possibility that any potassium hydroxide contamination could come from a clinical, cleaning formula?
And
What would be a significant amount of potassium to get the results?
My reasoning is that I've read potash, lye or potassium is used in cleaning products. Obviously, an autopsy room will need cleaned and the ravine 4 were decomposing.
I don't know what chemicals they would have at the time for disinfecting rooms or tables etc, but I think there are two possible accidental opportunities for contamination.
My first thought would be applying or covering some chemical over the ravine 4 bodies before putting them in bags for the helicopter transportation.
My second thought comes from the nurse that stated the bodies were filthy and they were washed. ( I'll need to double check) but could strong cleaning chemicals containing potassium be enough to get those kind of readings? If concentrated?
It is your thoughts regarding all the 9 clothes were contaminated and the problem of how this could occur that has influenced my thoughts.
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See https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2?rbid=18461
Question 2 / Answer
"No, he did not say anything about why he decided to check their clothes for radiation. He changed the topic. Much later, almost this year, I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing."
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See https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2?rbid=18461
Question 2 / Answer
"No, he did not say anything about why he decided to check their clothes for radiation. He changed the topic. Much later, almost this year, I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing."
I don't understand the dialogue in the link.
I'm not sure who's asking who what and when these lawyers come into play? Why would Ivanov have clothes lying on his floor ? Were they clothes from the tent? Were they the clothes from the first 5 bodies found in march or the clothes from the ravine 4?.
I need help here , what radiation causes a glow? If any clothes were "glowing " why did others not see "glowing" items?
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I don't think the human eye can detect / see radioactive glow? , Hence Geiger counters ....
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To add, I think this is why dosimeters exist.( I could be completely wrong)
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From a quick Google
Do radioactive things glow in the dark?
The short answer to your question is "no," radioactive things do not glow in the dark - not by themselves anyway. Radiation emitted by radioactive materials is not visible to the human eye. However, there are ways to"convert" this invisible energy to visible light. Many substances will emit visible light if "stimulated" by the ionizing radiation from radioactive material. These materials are known as "fluors" or "scintilators." So, by mixing some radioactive material with such a fluor, you can make a substance that glows. This kind of material has been used in things like the faces of clocks, watches, and instruments on ships and airplanes to make them visible in the dark. This is why most people think of glowing things when they think of radioactive materials.
Someone is talking bull to ell a book or two or if clothes are glowing , something serious is going on.
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We now know that there is a magnetic anomaly on the Dyatlov Pass, the whole area appears to be peppered with them. Some of these may be caused by uranium ores and similar radioactive minerals, that presumably is part of the reason for the search, so if someone from a rescue party gets out a geiger counter rocks beneath snow may trigger a reading higher than normal background radiation, like radon gas does when it seeps into the ground floor of some houses.
This may have caused the area to, quite innocently, be declared radioactive, as in naturally occurring, and gossip spread among the rescuers about a military cover-up. And then when articles of two hikers clothing were found to be much higher than background radiation, and even when following a decontamination process of being saturated by running water for 3 months, it was further suggestive of the idea that a nuclear device was used on the pass, when, perhaps, all that happened was two coincidental things, both with a simple explanation, came together.
Dead Mountain, a barren peak, may be so-called because no substantive vegetation grows there due to the radioactivity in the rocks?
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Totally agree that many of the reports or theories will come from coincidence . It's half the battle to unwind when things were said, by who and why.
However, we do have something tangible with the radioactive reports. It's a factual document and it is recorded in the case files.
If I understand Ryan correctly, he is surmising through a process of elimination. All 9 pieces of clothing were above background levels. 3 of these 9 samples were above expected safety levels at the time. If the contamination to these clothes happened before they were found in the ravine, the question is where did it come from. What has been proposed in the past i,s that the contamination may have come from two of the hikers that worked in nuclear work places, however it seems that radioactive contamination can't jump from one set of clothes to another that easily.
Plus we have the argument that if the contamination happened pre discovery of the ravine 4 , then all the readings would be much higher as the water would have some what cleaned the clothes that were tested.
As I understand it, it doesn't fit with the nature of radioactive contamination or exposure.
So we have an anomaly ( to add to all the others) . Were the clothes some how contaminated after the ravine 4s discovery. The readings were taken after in a controlled environment. Were they moved by stagers and then placed as teddy and Igor's theory , then covered in pot ash. Hence the odd readings.
It's a quandary I've never given much thought to in the past but Ryan has put a new observations to it.
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.Igor Pavlov is apparently right and on clothes dirt from EURT.
The container with nuclear waste that exploded in September 1957 contained mainly r/nuclides: ¹⁴⁴Ce, ¹⁴⁴Pr, ⁹⁵Nb, ⁹⁵Zr, ⁹⁰Sr, ¹³⁷Cs,
Of these, the first 4 are short-lived - T½ from 17.28 minutes. (¹⁴⁴Pr) up to 291 days (¹⁴⁴Ce) Thus, by May 1959, only long-lived ¹³⁷Cs (T½ = 30 years) and ⁹⁰Sr (28 years) were active
Strontium 90 is a pure β emitter. Cesium137 also decays in beta and only the product of its decay - Ba¹³⁷m transforms into stable ¹³⁷Ba with the emission of a γ-quantum with an energy of 661.7 keV, which is 4.5 times lower than the γ-sensitivity threshold of the TISS radiometer that was used by expert Levashov.
Accepting this hypothesis would limit the flight of fantasies about the mechanism and circumstances of infection to two or three variants. One of them was once proposed on taina li by a user writing under the nickname Yellow horror, and looked as follows: As part of measures to minimize the consequences of the 1957 Kyshtym accident, r/nuclide-contaminated items, primarily clothing, were confiscated from residents of evacuated settlements on a compensatory basis. These items had to be stockpiled somewhere before burial. The natural solution would have been to store them at collection points for so-called secondary raw materials, i.e., any, mostly textile, junk suitable for recycling. Since there was no proven method of action in a situation that had arisen for the first time, there was no strict sequence in actions, and a pile of rags dumped somewhere temporarily could well have been forgotten so tightly that it may still be there. One of Kolevatov’s fellow students who had access to such a point (who worked part-time as a janitor there, for example), having learned from Kolevatov about problems with warm clothing for a hike, remembered a bunch of pretty good things in the far corner of one of the warehouses. Of course, he had no idea where the clothes came from or what they represented in terms of nuclear physics...
This is exactly how three sweaters appeared in the memory of Kolevatov’s sisters, Rimma, which he got somewhere on the last day before leaving and brought home “smuggled” - putting all three on himself. One of them later ended up on Dubinina, and the third went unnoticed. Bottom of ski pants. Kolevatov “powdered” strontium-90, when was sorting through a pile of clothes, choosing the best. Dubinina's jacket, with which Zolotarev was covered, and his vest picked up what the stream washed out of Kolevatov's sweater, and Thibault lay in the middle of the stream, where the speed of the water flow was greatest, and almost nothing lingered on him
It seems Ivanov is referring here to criminal procedure, specifically "Articles 63 and 171 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR." I have no idea where to find the version of this Code of Criminal Procedure that would have been current in 1959, and it would be interesting to see what it says.
http://museumreforms.ru/node/13986
Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR. 1923 - 1961
Art. 63. Experts are called in cases where special knowledge in science, art or craft is needed during an investigation or consideration of a case.
Notes 1. The calling of experts is mandatory to establish the causes of death and the nature of bodily injuries, as well as to determine the mental state of the accused or witness in cases where the court or the investigator has doubts about this.
2. The procedure for calling and giving an examination is determined in these cases by special instructions issued by the People's Commissariat of Justice in agreement with the People's Commissariat of Health
Art. 171. The investigator outlines to the expert the points on which an opinion should be given. The accused has the right to present in writing those questions on which an expert should give an opinion. The expert has the right, with the permission of the investigator, to get acquainted with those circumstances of the case, the clarification of which is necessary for him to give an opinion.
Note. If the expert finds that the materials provided to him by the investigator are insufficient to give an opinion, he draws up a report on the impossibility of giving an opinion. In these cases, the limits of the preliminary investigation materials that must be provided to the expert are resolved by the prosecutor or the court with jurisdiction over the case.
As for Ivanov’s motive for appointing a physical and technical examination, it was most likely an intuitive reaction to talk of strange observations on February 17 and March 31. For the fewliterate Kuzminov and Syunikaev, they were transformed into a “cannonade”, into fireballs hitting the mountain tops, into clouds with hypnotic abilities, and for Ivanov, who may have heard something about the Kyshtym accident, they gave rise to a desire to check the corpses for radioactivity.
Just in case.
Dead Mountain, a barren peak, may be so-called because no substantive vegetation grows there due to the radioactivity in the rocks?
Information about dosimetering of Mount Kholat-Syakhyl in 1959 exists only at the level of vague rumors. There is no reliable information on this matter.
In our time, dosimeters were not carried there only by the blind, deaf, and mute.
They didn’t find a single extra micro-roentgen.
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First, I want to say that I am not an expert in the field. My knowledge is superficial and stems from a course in elementary atomic physics, as part of my engineering studies several decades ago, and from reading publications by Rosalie Bertell, (RIP), and others.
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I have read Levashov's report, comments from Igor Pavlov, and Ryan Pierce's remarks. Levashov's analysis, from 1959, only shows beta radiation. This limits the radiation source to materials used extensively in civil industry. Some are mentioned here, but the list could be longer.
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Iodine (I) is used in medicine, especially in the production of radioactive isotopes used in diagnostics and treatment of various diseases, such as thyroid problems.
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Tritium is used in self-luminous objects like emergency exits, emergency signs, and clocks. It is also used in some medical diagnostic tools.
Cobalt-60 (Co-60) is used in medical radiation therapy and industrial radiography.
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Carbon-14 (C-14) is used in carbon dating.
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Strontium-90 (Sr-90) is found in the environment after nuclear tests and nuclear accidents. Strontium nitrate is used in fireworks to produce red colors. It is also used as pigments in ceramics, glass, and paints, providing a range of red colors. Strontium can be added to certain types of steel to enhance properties such as strength and formability. It can also help reduce porosity in cast steel products. Historically, strontium compounds were used in cathode-ray tube screens. Strontium compounds are used in some flame retardants. In other words, Strontium has broad applications in civil industry.
Igor Pavlov mentions in his comment that it is unlikely that only beta rays were emitted from the samples. This is supported by elementary theory of radioactive radiation. Gamma radiation can occur when beta particles collide and annihilate each other. The mass collapses and simultaneously emits weak gamma radiation. But this is beside the point. So let's stick to the fact that beta radiation was measured in 1959.
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The radiation source could have originated from sloppy handling relatively harmless radioactive material used in civil industry, and perhaps for research purposes at UPI. And maybe from radioactive contamination after a nuclear accident.
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It is not fruitful to only look for findings that confirm a particular theory. One must also consider those that open up other explanatory models.
If we look at this from a statistical perspective, strontium has a has a wider range of applications in civil industry production than the other substances I have listed, and it can also be associated with fallout from nuclear accidents…
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If we talk about pollution after the Kyshtym accident, then an article in Russian Wikipedia (Kyshtym accident) gives the following data
cerium-144 (285 days) β-, γ-, α- praseodymium-144 (17.5 min / β-) → neodymium-144 (2.3⋅1015 years / α-) → cerium-140 (stable) 66%
zirconium-95 (64 days) β-, γ- niobium-95 (35 days / β-) → molybdenum-95 (stable) 25%
strontium-90 (28.8 years) β-yttrium-90 (64.1 h / β-, γ-) → zirconium-90 (stable) 5%
cesium-137 (30.17 years) β-, γ- barium-137 (stable) 3%
niobium-95 (35 days) β-molybdenum-95 (stable)
ruthenium-106 (374 days) β-rhodium-106 (29.8 s/β-, γ-) → palladium-106 (stable)
The starting element for these substances is apparently uranium-235.
I have no idea where and how radioactive iodine is obtained from uranium.
It turns out that 2/3 of the emission was cerium, but by May 18, 1959 its share could have decreased from 66% to 6%
If we consider strontium-90:
If we talk about the impact, I specifically studied that the radiation energy from yttrium-90 is approximately 4 times greater than the radiation energy from strontium-90, therefore, in this case it turns out that the impact from strontium is only 20%, and the impact from yttrium is 80%
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As I said, my list could be made longer. It was just an example to widen up possibilities.
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There are about 100 chemical elements and several thousand of their isotopes in the parish.
This is similar to the situation where Google Translate has 100+ languages and several thousand other languages, many of which are similar to the main languages.
For example, for cerium (atomic mass 140) there are isotopes in the range 119-157,
caused by different numbers of neutrons in an atom.
I am a graduate of the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, but nuclear physics is not my specialty, so I have to figure it out like before the exam. Especially, I cannot translate it to English correctly.
As for the annihilation of beta particles, I don’t remember, it is the annihilation of a proton and an electron, or the annihilation of an electron with a positron.
The Russian article Yttrium-90 has such information.
Yttrium-90 undergoes β− decay into stable zirconium-90 with a half-life of 64.1 hours [5], a decay energy of 2.28 MeV [1] The radiation of 0.01% 1.7 MeV [6] photons also occurs.
The figure 0.01% means that for every 10 thousand decays of strontium-90 into yttrium-90, and in parallel, 10 thousand decays of yttrium-90 into zirconium-90 occur.
Those. For every 20 thousand decays, only 1 decay occurs with gamma radiation.
But when considering thousands of isotopes, I think there are other options.
Those. Strontium-90 is ideal, but it is also a result of the decay of rubidium-90.
Rubidium-90 is formed in the decay chain of uranium-235, but there the elements decay quite quickly, and the half-life of strontium takes 30 years.
A stable version of strontium-88 is used in industry as a metal. If a human person consumes radioactive strontium-90, the body can confuse it with calcium, and therefore strontium (dangerous and toxic) can accumulate in the bones.
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Positrons and electrons annihilate each other when they come near each other, the mass collapses, and a weak gamma radiation (photons) is emitted, which only has a theoretical mass. But this is elementary theory.
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It seems to me that if the hikers knowingly suspected airborne radiation exposure it would be clothes off, snow bath time. Gentlemen to the left, ladies to the right. Then...about those clothes?
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In order for electrons to annihilate with their antiparticles, these particles must come from somewhere.
There are beta plus and beta minus decays. If beta minus decay occurs for some element, then beta plus can only arise from the environment. Or we have a mixture of elements... So, I don't understand this.
Now it is no longer possible to ask what Igor Pavlov meant.
When I studied at MIPT, the teachers did not like nuclear physics, considering it a side specialty like chemistry.
In addition, something in this theory may be refined and changed over the years.
I remember the moment that in the 1995, weak and strong interactions were added to electromagnetic interactions, and now again they are classified as separate interactions. Also, now that the mu-mesons that were present in our tasks, after 30 years, no longer considered as mesons, and are called muons. This is approximately how Pluto ceased to be a platenta.
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...I am not sure to explain it..here I lack deeper insight..Sadly I saw tha Pavlov passed aways some years ago. Could be interesting to have him develop hsi assumptions more..
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What I have read:
Cobalt-60 maybe is not suitable because "The half-life of cobalt-60 is 5.2 years; as a result of the beta decay of this nuclide, nickel-60 is formed in an excited state, which then passes to the ground state, emitting one or more gamma rays."
The same for Cesium isotopes.
(Alpha-particles and Gamma-rays are not detected by Levashov.)
Carbon-14 may be present as a little part of radioation test results, like Kalium-40, due to their natural presence in human body.
The question is about radioactive substances that exceed natural values. It may be Strontium-90 and another elements (from thousand of possible isotopes). If Strontium-90 is obliged to Kyshtym radioactive spur then the question arises, why another spur elemeтts (Ce-144, Cs-134, Cs-137) with alpha/gamma and gamma-radiation are not detected.
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Pavlov explained why gamma and alpha did not appear. The meter/method used by Levashov could not detect those partickles below a certain threshold..Sounds right to me. Again, its above my knowledge to say for sure..
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Pavlov explained why gamma and alpha did not appear. The meter/method used by Levashov could not detect those partickles below a certain threshold..Sounds right to me. Again, its above my knowledge to say for sure..
You know, I’m used to strange explanations, and 90% of what is written on Russian forums about DPI has nothing to do with serious research. This is a heap of incompetent ideas on tourism, medicine and so on.
What I remember from laboratory work at the institute is that alpha radiation is indeed registered slowly.
But for the device to register beta radiation and skip gamma radiation is somehow strange.
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You might be right. My point is that contamination can have come, both from the mayak and from sloppy handling of materials in the civil industry. Also at UPI.
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"I believe that the measured radioactivity from the clothing samples has a completely natural explanation. The topic should be taken off the table and archived under the label 'for the particularly interested.'
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Have you reacted to the short distance the group covered on the morning of February 1st? There is only a 2-kilometer distance between the last confirmed place they stayed overnight and where the tent was found. In the diary on the 31st, Dyatlov complains about poor progress. They are only walking at a rate of 1.5 to 2 km per hour uphill. At this point, they leave some equipment behind. According to the story, on February 1st, they hike up to where the tent was found and pitched it. Using Dyatlov's estimate of progress in difficult terrain, this hike would take 1 hour. It seems highly unlikely that they only walked for an hour on February 1st, 1959, before pitching the tent. There is something seriously wrong with this part of the story." ( Is this part of the story put together,just to have a story, without further asessments?)
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I try to explain
In order to investigate in this direction, you must either be a specialist in this field or study reference books.
If we consider the source of radiation as the Kyshty accident, then the unloading of waste from a nuclear reactor consists
Let’s say that the emergency tank was loaded at the beginning of 1957, and the accident occurred in September 9 months later.
Share of waste
- 66% (33% at the time of the accident, ~8% after 3 years) - cerium-144
- 5% (~5% after 3 years) - strontium-90
- 3% - cesium-137
Since the half-life for cerium-144 is equal to the gestation period of 9 months, then after 36 months it is
after 27 months (May 1959) 1/8 × 66% = 8% remained in the form of the elements cerium-144 and praseodymium-144,
and 7/8 in the form of the substance neodymium 144, which has only alpha radioactivity, which occurs over 2300 trillion years and is barely perceptible
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137
Caesium-137 has a half-life of about 30.05 years.[1] About 94.6% decays by beta emission to a metastable nuclear isomer of barium: barium-137m (137mBa, Ba-137m). The remainder directly populates the ground state of 137Ba, which is stable. Barium-137m has a half-life of about 153 seconds, and is responsible for all of the gamma ray emissions in samples of 137Cs. Barium-137m decays to the ground state by emission of photons having energy 0.6617 MeV.A total of 85.1% of 137Cs decay generates gamma ray emission in this manner.
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My gamma healing sensor, the battery of which I have not changed for 10 years, worked six months ago, now it turns on, but shows zeros.
Apparently the battery needs to be changed. But it is unlikely that such a problem existed in 1959.
Of the three popular accident products, only strontium90 fits the examination data.
it decays into yttrium-90 with an energy of 566 kiloelectronvolts (5.6 billion °C or kelvin),
and then within 64 hours the half-life of this yttrium into stable zirconium with energy
2.28 megaelectronvolts (thermal equivalent 22.8 billion °C)
(I find it difficult to convert these billions of degrees Celsius/Uelwyn into Fahrenheit, as the Americans like)
At most, Kolevatov’s heart counted 9 thousand decays.
If the cause of this is strontium-90, then it has only one gamma decay per 20 thousand decays.
Which may not be registered due to the sensitivity of the device.
Igor Pavloc (although it seems to me that the Partorg recently wrote it) may not have been aware of specific values.
But this variant with Strontium etc. cannot be the case with cesium-137 (or cesium-134),
for the device to register 0.5 MEV of radiation and at the same time not notice 1 MEV of gamma radiation is doubtful (a problem with the device, like mine).
Usually the opposite happens - devices do not notice beta radiation
those. the version of spontaneous natural pollution is eliminated.
Tritium is very weak beta-element. Another elements may be considered further.
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If you say so. I am not an expert in theese matters, but rely on what you write..But have you : "Have you reacted to the short distance the group covered on the morning of February 1st? There is only a 2-kilometer distance between the last confirmed place they stayed overnight and where the tent was found. In the diary on the 31st, Dyatlov complains about poor progress. They are only walking at a rate of 1.5 to 2 km per hour uphill. At this point, they leave some equipment behind. According to the story, on February 1st, they hike up to where the tent was found and pitched it. Using Dyatlov's estimate of progress in difficult terrain, this hike would take 1 hour. It seems highly unlikely that they only walked for an hour on February 1st, 1959, before pitching the tent. There is something seriously wrong with this part of the story." ( Is this part of the story put together,just to have a story, without further asessments?)
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It seems to me that the question about 1 hour is offtopic, but since you ask, I’ll write my opinion.
1) In the summer I had a 30 km hike in the mountains around my citytown. If I had not caught the bus at 19-15, I would have had to walk another 12 km or wait for a taxi.
out of 8 hours of walking in the mountains, only 1 hour (after 12 noon) was uphill. What do I want to say?
The difficulty of the climb depends on the temperature ang luggage. At +35*C I stopped 4 times. at +25 I stopped once to rest.
It’s very strange to imagine that some bandits preyed on the group for 4 days, although they could have caught up with them on the first day, On the fourth night they didn’t disturb them, and then they specifically waited for the group to ascend to 300 meters in altitude.
Vietnamka (she leaved this foeum) told to Oleg Taimen in an interview that Dyatlov’s group walked 2 km on February 1, and the next day they had a difficult transition to Otorten. I laughed at this notion. Since Vietnamka - works in a hospital, I imagined the situation: she walked up to the 7th floor by stairs, and then she had a difficult passage along the corridor.
2) We do not know the exact time when the group started climbing and when they stopped. Maybe it was 9 a.m. - 12 a.m. - 15 a.m.
Perhaps this is not the way it is suggested to us. Perhaps the storage shed was made not at the place where they spent the night, but in the middle of the ascent. The fact that the storage shed (in the snow) was made in the place where it was found is unambiguous.
Other details we can only guess in all options.
The tent definitely was set up in the place where it was found (other opinions arise as a “crisis of the genre”)
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My reaction when I saw the distance, don't need a fixed time for arrival. It is not climbing, but a gentle slope uphill. Walking this distance of 2 km is easily done in an hour and a half under these weather conditions, with 15 kg on your back. I have walked such distance under similiar conditions in my younger days, using less then 1 hour. So something must have happened, but what?
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It can be difficult to imagine, but the slope they walked is not climbing but just gently uphill. And if they walked the route proposed, most of the route would be plane, not up and not down. The altitude is about 850 meter where the tent was spotted. I see what you say about possible intruders, and I agree about what you say there. But speculations about possible intruders should be sorted out under a different topic..The remaining question in this matter should be : Why did they walk only one hour that day? An answer could be that they walked much longer but turned around, walked back and picthed the tent. Still I dont swollow it. Something happen between 31 and 1..
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Much is being made of the question of radioactive contamination, I suppose this is meant to indicate some sort of military test, or accident. Lets say it does. Radiation should be found in the environment where the clothes were found as a function of radioactive decay. It would be widespread.I recall that during the initial search and during latter day investigations, radiation detection gear was used. It produced nothing that raised an alarm then or now. Lets take a wild ride and imagine some isotope was made in the USSR and was going to buy freedom for the hikers with the CIA. Do we really believe this is something to be carried around in a pocket? Do we really believe radio technicians got this material from their comrades in the reactor? I'll bet radium for glow in the dark watches, clocks and the like was easier to come by.
My suspicion is that the rescuers had the detection equipment on hand as prospectors. They might have been curious to know if any in the group were prospecting too...for souvenier mineral samples.
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Agreed. I'm not sure if it was done intentionally, but the hype around radioactivity distracts attention from other more obvious things. You've mentioned murder, outlining a motive that stands on its own. I'll comment on this later. In my opinion, the "mystery" of radioactivity should be taken off the table and archived under the label "just for educational purposes".
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I solicited an opinion from someone who is currently a NPP safety consultant. She read the criminal case and responded but does not want her name to be mentioned:
=======================
XX: It is difficult to draw a conclusions. There is not enough information. Did the students have classes and exercises in nuclear physics? In those years, the rules were not very strict and it is possible that they got infected in the laboratories.
It's a pity they didn't do an isotopic analysis. Just beta contamination, more like work/test/experiment contamination. We o not know exactly what the radioactive material is, for example, Cs-137 (cesium) or another substance - strontium.
Teddy: The one the contaminated clothes belong to was a nuclear physics student (Kolevatov (http://dyatlovpass.com/hikers#dob)).
XX: Perhaps he contaminated the rest.
Teddy: But only his clothes were contaminated, he and one more participant who worked on Chelyabinsk-40 when there was an accident (Krivonischenko (http://dyatlovpass.com/hikers#dob)).
XX: Most likely, this is the reason. In those years, there were still no such strict rules for safe work with radioactive substances.
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It reduces to three possibilities 1. They brought it with them ( from work or school) 2. They acquired it from the environment ( prospecting and naturally radioactive environmental exposure 3. They were contaminated from radioactive fallout. Of the three scenarios, only the third, radioactive fallout links to a reason the ended up as they did. There is nothing in the record indicating widespread radioactive contamination in the area then or now. No rocket debris has been identified. I submit the whole matter of radiation, geiger counters and suspicious death is a red herring.
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XX: We do not know exactly what the radioactive material is, for example, Cs-137 (cesium)
I am gradudte of Moscow Intitute of physics and technology, .
It so happened that on the first day of my first year, September 1, at 8 pm, I was writing a test in nuclear physics. but a was working as phogrammer in Multimedia Technologies. Therefore, I am familiar with this situation only from old memory.
When researching this situation, espacialy in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137 i see
Caesium-137 has a half-life of about 30.05 years.[1] About 94.6% decays by beta emission to a metastable nuclear isomer of barium: barium-137m (137mBa, Ba-137m). The remainder directly populates the ground state of 137Ba, which is stable. Barium-137m has a half-life of about 153 seconds, and is responsible for all of the gamma ray emissions in samples of 137Cs. Barium-137m decays to the ground state by emission of photons having energy 0.6617 MeV.[8] A total of 85.1% of 137Cs decay generates gamma ray emission in this manner.
Now lets' see https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377
Sheet 373
Alpha particles and gamma quants were not detected.
So, Cesium 137 is not suitable for this situation.
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Again, radioactivity was, in miniscule amounts detected on them, not in them. This is not central to the question of their demise. It is a distraction. The discussion is a learned one though.
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Everyone and Teddy:
Found this article/images in Google :Historic Images Part Number: mjc18542.....sending an image but not a photo...when click on this 'EBAY" will not allow to copied image. Maybe this part number or if you could the images can help you with "What might had happened"
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
(https://i.ibb.co/j6J9pfc/atomic-power-plant2024-05-06-8-25-11-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/kHmVdBR)
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Found this article/images in Google :Historic Images Part Number: mjc18542.....sending an image but not a photo...when click on this 'EBAY" will not allow to copied image.
The link is https://www.ebay.com/itm/354924328840
Right click, Save image as
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/s-l1600.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/s-l1600-back.jpg)
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I solicited an opinion from someone who is currently a NPP safety consultant. She read the criminal case and responded but does not want her name to be mentioned:
=======================
XX: It is difficult to draw a conclusions. There is not enough information. Did the students have classes and exercises in nuclear physics? In those years, the rules were not very strict and it is possible that they got infected in the laboratories.
It's a pity they didn't do an isotopic analysis. Just beta contamination, more like work/test/experiment contamination. We o not know exactly what the radioactive material is, for example, Cs-137 (cesium) or another substance - strontium.
Teddy: The one the contaminated clothes belong to was a nuclear physics student (Kolevatov (http://dyatlovpass.com/hikers#dob)).
XX: Perhaps he contaminated the rest.
Teddy: But only his clothes were contaminated, he and one more participant who worked on Chelyabinsk-40 when there was an accident (Krivonischenko (http://dyatlovpass.com/hikers#dob)).
XX: Most likely, this is the reason. In those years, there were still no such strict rules for safe work with radioactive substances.
Askinadzi answered me in a private mail. He browsed our forum and said that a lot of information needs correction and/or revision. He is still more comfortable giving me his comments in mails and I will post (translate) them for you.
===========================
Да, нам читали курс «Ядерная физика» (для информации – нам читали девять (!!) разных физик), однако никаких практических или лабораторных работ не было.
Следует учитывать, что Кривонищенко был строителем, он не работал на основном производстве. Авария произошла в 1957 году, к 1959 году было проведено несколько актов дезактивации территории «Маяка». Уровень радиации снизили практически до естественного.
Я внимательно прочитал размышления Игоря Павлова (https://dyatlovpass.com/radioctive-trace) и полностью согласен с ним.
«Поэтому измерить или увидеть что-то на образцах, которые подверглись облучению в принципе невозможно (естественно, пока не начались симптомы лучевой болезни).
Когда говорится о гистологических образцах, я это понимаю, как образцы человеческих органов, подготовленные для гистологического исследования. Т.е. тонкие срезы для исследования под микроскопом. В УД есть результаты гистологических исследований для последней четверки.
Левашов исследовал (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377) не гистологические образцы (в понимании выше), а золу от образцов человеческих тканей. Т.е формально это не есть образцы для гистологических исследований. Гистологические образцы не передавались на радиометрическую экспертизу.
Исследования Левашова (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377) установили факт незначительного радиоактивного загрязнения образцов человеческих тканей. Это значит, что каким-то образом изотопы оказались в образцах = в организме человека».
А теперь моё мнение о проблеме радиоактивности.
Иванов затребовал исследование на радиоактивность, проявив инициативность и не согласовывая это ни с кем. Левашов ответил на его любопытство. Но специалисты, которые тогда понимали результаты лучше Иванова, объяснили ему, что он получил «мыльный пузырь». Этим всё дело и кончилось. Если бы были получены значимые результаты, то дальнейшие исследования, более глубокие, непременно бы были продолжены. А так, зашили результаты в дело, засекретили всё дело…и успокоились на долгие годы. А поисковики в лихом азарте стали сочинять небылицы, что делают и до сих пор!
===========================
Yes, we had "Nuclear Physics" course (for information, we were taught by nine (!!) different physicists), but there was no practical or laboratory work.
It should be taken into account that Krivonischenko was a builder; he did not work in the main production. The accident occurred in 1957; by 1959, several acts of decontamination of the Mayak territory had been carried out. The radiation level was reduced almost to natural levels.
I carefully read Igor Pavlov’s thoughts (https://dyatlovpass.com/radioctive-trace) and completely agree with him.
"Therefore, it is in principle impossible to measure or see anything on samples that have been exposed to radiation (naturally, until symptoms of radiation sickness begin).
When we refer to histological samples, I understand this as samples of human organs prepared for histological examination. These are thin sections for examination under a microscope. The case files contain the results of histological studies for the last four.
Levashov did not examine histological samples (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377) (as understood above), but ash from human tissue samples. That is, formally these are not samples for histological studies. Histological samples were not submitted for radiometric examination.
Levashov's studies (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377) established the fact of minor radioactive contamination of human tissue samples. This means that somehow the isotopes ended up in the samples = in the human body."
And now my opinion about the radioactive contamination.
Ivanov requested a radioactivity test, showing initiative and without coordinating this with anyone. Levashov answered his curiosity. But the specialists, who then understood the results better than Ivanov, explained to him that he had received "soap bubble" (meaning nothing of importance). That was the end of the matter. If significant results had been obtained, then further, deeper studies would certainly have been continued. And so, they filed the results into the case, classified the whole matter... and cooled down for many years. And the searchers, in their wild excitement, began to invent fables, which they still do to this day!
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Excellent teddy, say thanks to Askinadzi.
I think many fables have been made. Even the story of the clothes glowing which lead to the said tests didn't make sense.
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I think many fables have been made. Even the story of the clothes glowing which lead to the said tests didn't make sense.
This is funny borderline insane.
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This is how rumours start , It's from :
Interview with Stanislav Evgenievich Bogomolov, author of the article "Mystery of the fireballs", published in the "Uralskiy Rabochiy" (en. Ural Worker) in 1990 on July 8
Lev Ivanov in your article says that he brought Geiger counter to the pass. In personal communication with you, did Lev Ivanov tell you who told him, indicated or otherwise hinted to bring a Geiger counter to the pass and measure the level of radiation? Quote from your article:
"I did not work out the version about the light balls. I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't found out."
Answer
"No, he did not say anything about why he decided to check their clothes for radiation. He changed the topic. Much later, almost this year, I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing."
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It is possible that it was not the clothes that glowed, but the compass or clock hands
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" Soap bubble", a clever use of the language. I like it. A geiger counter was at hand. Why not use it, if for no other reason than to pass a few idle moments, or appear to be thorough? Then again, by using the detector on human remains, it is natural for someone in authority to question why. That, in and of itself, produces answers and poses a question which is going to make things worse for all concerned. Even now, six decades later, the soap bubble has not popped. It was Nature, not Man made radioactive substances that precipitated the tragedy.
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It was Nature, not Man made radioactive substances that precipitated the tragedy.
With the same success we can say - my wife did not cheat on me!
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Another clever saying lol2
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Everyone and Teddy
I was viewing in Google again and this about KGB, Russian Spies and I came across George Koval Wikipedia...I will copied and paste a section,
I found what you might been looking for "Atomic Spies"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cedar_(KGB) (useful information)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Mitrokhin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_spies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Koval
Koval was transferred from Oak Ridge to a top-secret lab in Dayton, Ohio on June 27, 1945, where polonium initiators were fabricated. The world's first atomic bomb was detonated in New Mexico on July 16 of that year. Atomic bombs were dropped on Japan on August 6 and 9. The Soviet Union responded by increasing efforts to develop its own atomic bomb. While the American Central Intelligence Agency estimated the Soviets would not succeed until 1950–53, the first Soviet atomic bomb was detonated on August 29, 1949. The initiator for the plutonium bomb was, according to Russian military officials, "prepared to the 'recipe' provided by military intelligence agent Delmar [Koval]".[2]: 45
Thanks
Kathleen dee Smith
(https://i.ibb.co/qYkLfNs/atomic-bombs2024-05-24-10-06-54-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/XxSfg7s)
(https://i.ibb.co/QfWdp69/OPeration-Cedar-2024-05-26-8-09-08-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/ZVQmGhd)
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Everyone and Teddy,
Sending two images...one image is Alamos desert New Mexico, look familiar ...this is regarding Klaus Fuchs "Atomic Spy"... be careful "Fuchs" became a controlled schizophrenia'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCJeMRlnUE0
(https://i.ibb.co/jTT36zd/Alamos-desert-2024-05-26-10-22-07-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/f22r19b)
(https://i.ibb.co/xmNtTWJ/Fuchs-2024-05-26-10-24-01-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/M8mx0rM)
Thanks
KathleenDee Smith
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Everyone and Teddy:
I have bit of information regarding January 2nd 1959 ...don't know of radioactive trace,....Soviet Union was experimenting and water could have been contaminated in which the last 4 hikers were found???...
(https://i.ibb.co/89Vh0v1/Luna-2-2024-06-03-4-56-29-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/Pg8SNXq)
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
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My major problem comes from the fact that Ivanov couldn’t just seem to tell the truth about what happened or why he ordered the test. The whole thing, as it was handled by those in authority, just seemed off. If we can think up innocent explanations for why the radioactive tests were positive for high levels of radiation on the clothes, why couldn’t they? If we can look at the tests and say there’s nothing really there, then why couldn’t Ivanov just explain that years later? Why couldn’t he just explain that someone took a Geiger counter up to do some prospecting? Why would he think that would be more suspicious than the lies he told? They couldn’t check their records and determine that Yuri Kri was involved in the cleanup or something like that? Does anyone honestly believe Ivanov actually thought the tragedy was caused by sentient fireballs? Personally, I do not. His story does not make any sense. It’s full contradictions, omissions, can’t be proven, and caters to a popular theory among the public about governments covering up alien visitations. But he was the lead investigator. We cannot simply dismiss his opinion as a flight of fancy or an uninformed guess. If he wasn’t hiding the fact that a fireball made an unscheduled visit on the hikers, then what was he hiding?
First, you have Ryan’s theory. I’m not an expert. But I will say his theory does do well handling a few problems that crop up anytime government involvement regarding the radioactive tests is suggested. If they did it deliberately, then why let a Geiger counter anywhere near the site at all? It’s like, why dig up Zolotaryov and let people do DNA tests on him with no interference if you know they’ll find out it’s not him? It’s a bit more believable if it was a military test gone awry, which would still be their fault, but accidental. So they wouldn’t necessarily know beforehand that radiation was going to be a problem, especially if the Dyatlov group was on the edge of the disaster area or not where they expected to find them, which we know the second one was the case, at least in regard to the specific area where the tent was set up. But does it really make sense to believe that they wouldn’t have figured it out pretty quickly? They would then be required to go into cover-up mode.
However, for me, their response has always been along the lines of having no idea where the radiation came from and panicking rather than coming up with a measured response, which I feel like they would have been more equipped to do if they knew what happened, even if they were kind of slow about figuring out that the military accident they didn’t tell anyone about actually killed a group of hikers and not just a herd of reindeer that they thought originally, or something like that. if Ryan’s theory is correct, then it does explain why they would have been so clueless that they weren’t thinking clearly. And just for the record, I don’t think what was bothering Ivanov or by extension, the government, was the test results themselves, but the terrible injuries to the three hikers. That’s what perplexed and scared them, because he had no explanation, and science was not on their side. They were being told that a pile of snow falling on a person wouldn’t cause those injuries. So what else was there to explain it. They didn’t know, and as a result, couldn’t rule out that it wasn’t somehow tied to radiation tests, which were somehow tied to government involvement.
Here’s the problem with the theory. We need more proof. And it doesn’t, in my opinion, fit the known facts real well. A government coverup in this case cannot be taken as proof of involvement, not when you have a government that is so sensitive to any kind of criticism against them or anything that will tarnish their image that they will go into panic mode over wild stories that governments like the United States and Britain wouldn’t even bother to deign to notice. And my intention is not to compare them unfavorably to those governments. But questions of why speaks to motive. And just as with people, we have to know and take into account the government’s baseline response if we want to understand why they did something.
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In the fall of 2005, I bought myself a gamma radioactivity dosimeter for personal research, on the radio market in Moscow, it cost $50. I remember all this physics theory, such as the theory of music and solfeggio, although I don’t really do this.
When I listened to materials on the Dyatlov group, I noticed something that only beta radiation was detected, which my $50 device cannot detect. You need to fork out another amount of money or look specifically for it.
This is clear to me as a person who, in the 3rd year of the institute, took laboratory work on alpha radioactivity.
This is when 1 signal is caught in the natural background in 15 minutes.
I realized that my device was not suitable for going to the Dyatlov Pass and trying to determine something there.
On the other hand, there is always a natural background (the device should always beep, it’s like water with microbes), its absence is also strange. For example, there is a problem with the batteries inside, if not the circuitry. With bad batteries, the device shows half the radiation. (I thought so)
Second point, my dosimeter shows a background level of 6 to 26 microroentgens in the apartment and other houses (the norm is 13, but usually it was exceeded by 16). When I watched on YouTube at the end of April a foray into abandoned houses in the Chernobyl zone,
I saw a man standing on the balcony of a high-rise building, and the dosimeter showed 2800-2900 microroentgen of gamma radiation (the same gray BELLA dosimeter as mine). The background of the clothing that was sent by Ivanov for examination corresponds approximately to background 80. That is. under normal conditions this is an elevated background, which I have never observed with a meter, but this is not a consequence of a serious accident. This could be 20 m from Chernobyl, for example.
People who have not studied physics. when they start using such a device, housewives say funny things: “In different parts of our apartment, this device shows different radiation,” which makes me laugh.
Although the examination for Ivanov determined beta radiation for the organs of the victims and for their clothing, here we must remember the Russian proverb - “separate the flies from the cutlets.” Beta radioactivity of bodies at such low levels is not a consequence of exposure, but normal radiation exposure during its life, in the sense of consumption of potassium-40, carbon-14 (such as, for example, a person’s tanning in the sun). As I understand it, after the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, at the time of irradiation, wooden houses were burning, under irradiation conditions, carbon-14 was formed from carbon-12, which flew in the atmosphere throughout the planet, the apple tree turned it into an apple through the process of photosynthesis, you ate the apple and part of it remains in you. Second varian - carbon dioxide high in the atmosphere under the influence of cosmic radiation. Levashov’s examination is silent on this point and only mentions potassium-40.
If there is radiation, this does not mean that it should not exist. Second examination: The radioactivity of clothing is strange, but how did it originate? Of course, cotton also contains carbon, but I think another reason (dust on clothes). Why didn't normal gamma radiation occur? It’s like, for example, I looked into the trash can in the yard, and there was only green grass or yellow sand instead of colorful garbage.
To determine what causes this radiation from 2-3 isotopes, you need to study reference books, as an option the decay of strontium-yttrium-zirconium, the decay of promethium-samarium and the decay of europium-gadolinium (radioactive numbers), I stopped studying further. Could it be hydrogen-tritium (interesting theories arise here), I am not yet competent to answer.
Universal devices for alpha, beta and gamma radiation, as I assume, are poorly sensitive to alpha and beta,
because the plastic housing is a significant barrier to this radiation.
Those. a device like Taimen’s in the video, with a plastic body. can detect beta radiation
I don’t even know what kind of device I should go with, maybe with this one (like a tennis table),
as it was in our laboratory work. In simple words, the examination for Ivanov was done in laboratory conditions,
and cannot be caught with a regular consumer device.
Why are such devices not sold? Because they are usually not specifically needed, because beta radiation is usually accompanied by gamma radiation, which penetrates better through obstacles and for which the universe is, as it were, transparent. I don’t know yet how dangerous it is.
The unit roentgen was introduced for x-rays, but is also used for gamma radiation
X-rays are supposedly an outdated unit of measurement. like Russian verst instead of meters.
There is also a system unit of sievert, but the "obsolete" roentgen continues to be widely used, as do the obsolete inches. I have not heard about the use of sieverts. At least the mention of sieverts causes discomfort. X-rays are not suitable for alpha and beta radiation; these radiations are measured in pulses or some other units. I don’t remember now, but you can’t easily find it in reference books. I can’t understand whether this is archaic (like using “dyne instead of newton”), or vice versa is the norm.
From what I studied at the age of 16-20 and memorized, like formulas and poems, now I have questions about many things.
For example, if the alpha particle is helium (2 protons + 2 neutrons), then where do the 2 electrons go when the atom decays?
The second point that I realized is that beta decay is not a process of decreasing the atomic number, but rather increasing it (in figurative language, this is a fusion reaction into a higher number). This is, for example, how a person loses weight but does not rejuvenate, but becomes a year older.
In general, the entire theory of atomic physics resembles the Dyatlov Pass theory. There are a lot of wild fantasies and controversial theories that are not studied in school (this theory may soon change), all sorts of Gibbs fields, and radiation physics is rather a peculiar branch of chemistry with a violation of the law of conservation of the original substance (in ordinary chemistry), from which normal physicists (for example, at our institute), specialists in physics, for example, in superconductivity or laser optics, try to brush it off. “Why are you offering us chemistry?”
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Я в 2005 осенью году купил себе дозиметр гамма-радиоактивности для личных исследований, на радиорынке в Москве, это стоило 50 долларов.Я всю эту теорию физики помню, как например теорию музыки и сольфеджио, хотя реально я этим не занимаюсь.
Когда я слушал материалы по группе Дятлова, я обратил внимание на такую вещь, что обнаружена только бета-радиация, которую мой прибор за 50 долларов определит не сможет. Надо раскошелится на другую сумму денег или специально искать.
Это мне понятно как человеку, который на 3 курсе института проходил лабораторные работы по альфа-радиоактивности.
Это когда за 15 минут в природном фоне ловится 1 сигнал.
Я понял, что мой прибор не годится для того, чтобы ехать на перевал Дятлова и пытаться что-то там определить.
С другой стороны, природный фон всегда есть (прибор всегда должен пищать, это как вода с микробами), его отсутствие - тоже странность. Например, проблема с батарейками внутри, если не миркосхема. При плохих батарейках прибор показывает вдвое меньшее излучение. (мне так показалось)
Второй момент, мой дозиметр показывает в квартире и других домах фон от 6 до 26 микрорентген (норма 13, но обычно было её превышение 16). Когда я в конце апреля смотрел в youtube вылазку по заброшенным домам в чернобыльской зоне,
Я видел как человек стоял на балконе многоэтажки, и дозиметр показывал 2800-2900 микрорентген гамма-излучения (такой же серый дозиметр БЕЛЛА,как и мой). Фон одежды, которая была отправлена Ивановым на экспертизу, соответствует примерно фону 80. Т.е. в обычных условиях это завышенный фон, который я никогда не наблюдал счётчиком, но это и не последствие серьёзной аварии.Это может быть в 20 м от Чернобыля,напрмиер.
Люди, не изучавшие физику. когда начинают пользоваться таким прибором, домохозяйки говорят смешные вещи: "У нас в разных местах квартиры этот прибор показывает разную радиацию", от чего я смеюсь.
Хотя экспертиза для Иванова определила бета-излучение для органов погибших и для их одежды, здесь надо вспомнить такую русскую пословицу - "отделить мух от котлет". Бета-радиоактивность тел при таких малых - это не последствие воздействия, а нормальное облучение в течение его жизни, в смысле - потребление калий-40, углерод-14 (как, например, загорелость человека на солнце). Как я это понимаю после атомных бомб в Хиросиме и Нагасаки на момент облучения горели деревянные дома, в условиях облучения из углерод-12 образовался углерод-14, который летал в атмосфере по всей планете, яблоня превратила его в яблоко по процессу фотосинтеза, яблоко вы скушали и часть его в вас осталось. Втойро вариан - углекислый газ высоко в атмосфере под воздействием космического излучения. Экспертиза Левашова это момент умалчивает и упоминает только калий-40.
Если радиация есть, это не означает, что её должно не быть. Вторая экспертиза: Радиоактивность одежды является странным, а как же она возникла? Конечно, хлопок тоже содержит углерод, но мне кажется другая причина (пыль на одежде). Почему не возникла обычная гамма-радиация? Это как например я посмотрел в мусорный ящик во дворе, а там только зелёная трава или жёлтый песок вместо разноцветного мусора.
Чтобы определить от чего этого радиация из 2-3 изотопов, надо изучать справочники, как вариант распад стронций-иттрий-цирконий, распад прометий-самарий и распад европий-гадолиний (радиоактивые номера), дальше я перестал изучать. Может ли это быть водород-тритий (тут возникают интересные теории), я пока некомпетентен ответить.
Универсальные приборы на альфа, бета и гамма излучения, как я предполагаю, плохо чувствительны к альфа и бета,
потому что пластмассовый корпус является существенным препятствием для этого излучения.
Т.е. прибор, как у Тайменя на видео, с пластмассовым корпусом. может детектировать бета-излучение
Я даже не знаю, с каким прибором надо ехать, возможно с таким (типа теннисный столик),
как был у нас на лабораторных работах. Простыми словами, экспертиза для Иванова делалась в лабораторных условиях,
и обычном прибором для ширпотреба не ловится.
Почему не продаются такие приборы, потому что они обычно специально не нужны, потому что бета-радиация обычно сопровождается гамм-радиацией, которая лучше проникает через препятствия и для которой вселенная как бы прозрачна. Что там как опасно я пока не знаю.
Единица рентген была введена для рентгеновского излучения, но применяется также для гамма-излучения
Рентгены якобы устаревшая единица измерения. как например русская верста вместо метров.
Есть также системная единица измерения зиверты, но "устаревшие" рентгены продолжают широко использоваться, как и устаревшие дюймы. Про использование зивертов я не слышал. По крайней мере, упоминание зивертов вызывает дисмкомфорт. Для альфа и бета излучения рентгены не подходят, эти излучения измеряются в импульсах или каких-то других единицах. Сейчас я не помню, а в справочниках это так просто не найдёшь быстро. Я не могу понять, или это архаизм (как использование "дина вместо ньютон), или наоборот норма.
Возможно я что-то представляю неправильно из того, что я написал.
Из того, что я изучал в 16-20 лет и запоминал, как формулы и стихотворения, сейчас у меня ко многому возникают вопросы.
Например, если альфа-частица это гелий (2 протона+2 нейтрона), то куда деваются 2 электрона при распаде атома?
Второй момент, который я осознал, что бета распад это процесс не уменьшения атомного номера, а наоборот его увеличение (образным языком, это реакция синтеза в больший номер). Это например, как человек сбрасывает вес но не омолаживается, а становится на год старше.
Вообще вся теория атомной физики напоминает теорию с перевалом Дятлова. Очень много диких фантазий и спорных теорий, которую в школе не изучают (скоро эта теория может измениться), всякие там поля Гиббса, а физика радиации это скорее своеобразный раздел химии с нарушением закона сохранения исходного вещества (в обычной химии), от которого нормальные физики (например, у нас в институте), специалисты именно по физике, например, по сверхпроводимости или лазерной оптике, стараются отмахнуться. "Зачем вы нам химию предлагаете?"
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A radioactive trace is not an unknown compelling force.
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A radioactive trace is not an unknown compelling force.
I accept both options. To understand the possible effects of radiation,
I need to read scientific articles. I found an article in Russian earlier, but it’s difficult for me to quote it here.
So I did a search in English, for example, here is reference to similar article.
https://inis.iaea.org/search/searchsinglerecord.aspx?recordsFor=SingleRecord&RN=35034526
META
The effect of electrons, neutron and gamma radiation on nitrocellulose
Heppell-Masys, K.M.
Excellence in the new millennium
2001
High nitrogen content nitrocellulose is mostly used as an explosive component in the fabrication of propellant. Slow evaporation of the stabiliser agents deteriorate the safe properties of these materials throughout the years, making them hazardous to handle well beyond their shelf lives. The irradiation may neutralize and convert the stocks of aged and unstable nitrocellulose explosives into less nitrated hence non-explosive substance.
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Nitrocellulose is gun cotton or the propellant in bullets. The post suggests thst old ammunition is more unstable due to vapor leakage and weaker still if exposed to radiation. OK.
We are not going to suppose that still camera film in sub zero weather is going to spontaneously combust. We are not going to believe the hikers had ammunition, explosive camera film, a film reel of state secrets, nor Symphony in Gold squirreled away in their gear.
Bad weather and a slab slip are much better explanations, yes? Or, am I somehow missing the point?
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The film "Golden Symphony" (1955) is available on YouTube, lasts 96 minutes and consists of probably 10 parts, each weighing 2 kg. This film was made in 1956-58 from cellulose acetate, which burns at 500 * C and is not very dangerous.
The film "There is such a guy" "Among the people" (1939) by Maxim Gorky is the same length, it is a black and white film, and can be viewed at the link on Wikipedia. Most likely, it is made from nitrocellulose, which is fire hazardous and burns at 120*C. In addition to being a fire hazard, such film is highly toxic, especially when a lack of oxygen produces carbon monoxide (50% of smoke), nitrogen oxides (1/6 - 1/16) and hydrogen cyanide, which is toxic in small volumes.
It is unlikely that tourists could remove 1 reel out of ten.
I was surprised to find out all this when I studied this topic.
My mother has worked with movie cameras since 1970, when dangerous film was discontinued. But in the movie booth, as I remember, there was an iron door and there was nothing wooden.
My mother had 3 movie cameras at work for 8mm, 16mm (green) and 35mm (gray). The 8mm film camera has never been used.
The reels of the green movie camera rotated in plain sight, the reels of the large camera were covered with roofs with latches (hooks), which I remember well. Also on the top cover, there was a narrow vertical slot from which the film unwinds, apparently in order to understand that this part of the film will soon end, and it is necessary to switch to the next part.
All this equipment was installed in 1969 and worked until 1994 (when I was 17-18 years old).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAWe_4L2hhI
there is the same film projector without these covers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKtyTVG_bEw
Now my mother uses the camera lens as a magnifying glass. There is also a device for gluing 16 mm tape (I use it as a stand for the laptop power supply),
a piece of 35 mm film (like bookmarks) and filmstrips. We threw out all the film in 2010.
My mother worked as a director, but all the employees learned to use a movie camera when the projectionist Miron was laid off (he lived in a neighboring house and has already died). I sometimes rewound film, it’s like turning a sewing machine or a bicycle.
The last time I dealt with movie cameras was in 1998. In order to play a long film, it must be recharged on parallel cinema cameras every 10 minutes.
At our school the projectionist was a Jew, with whom my father knew well. One day he did not come to work on Sunday when he had to turn on the equipment at the polling station. And he was fired.
BUT I was more familiar with videotapes.
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As for the snow slab, I think it also has a place in this story, but much later, at the last stage, then Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found in May in a stream. There can’t be an avalanche on a tent, that’s always been said.
I think that specialists in medicine and radiation will be able to draw their own conclusions based on the examination of a criminal case if they are given a picture of the events. Beta elements could be an isotope of rubidium or radium, but I think such elements have no place in this story.
Judging by the medical diagnosis, the tourists had central cyanosis (the classification also includes peripheral cyanosis), but this was never mentioned. Exposure to nitric acid vapor is also possible, this has been said many times.
So far, these experts do not know how to work using deductive methods.
If you think that the tourists got a movie @Symphonie in Gold@ that they watched at the club, or they used the film in cameras, or the film (as 16 mm) was from the UPI studio, this indicates that you are thinking strangely with your head. It irritates me to communicate with such people. The most funny vesrion supposes film diameter for 16 mm bu used in photocameras
I wrote an epigraph from Pushkin exactly about my relative here
I wrote to his wife before HERs death recently that you didn’t solve anything, you didn’t achieve what you wanted, but you created such a gorgeous mythical story.
(https://i.ibb.co/jkPb07S/axelrod-1997.jpg)
[–] And the guys died, some on the mountain, some in the forest... Indeed, the hypothesis very convincingly proves all the damage. This version has been suffered for years, and, according to Moisei Abramovich, it covers everything. He said this: “We need to convey this guess to people, while I’m alive.” The version is certainly good, materialistic, but there is one discrepancy in it: in the place where the tent stood, and on the entire visible slope, that is, above and below, right and left, in principle there can be no talk of any avalanche there. Any specialist will confirm this.
My uncle of the highest codes,
When he became very ill,
He claimed respect from all his folks,
And hadn't invented better thing....
He is exemplary for others,
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Axelrod, thank you for a full reply and insight into your family's involvement with film projection. I too can attest to the robust construction of a film projection booth.
I do not think anyone supports the idea of a classical avalanche demolishing the tent. A localized slab slide explains the condition of the tent but not the actions of the hikers. The possibility of nitric acid burns is an interesting one. It would explain the discoloration of some corpses, the removal and re dressing of the corpses and central cyanosis. Cyanide poisoning is far to fast acting and carbon monoxide produces cherry red lips because it binds with hemoglobin to produce a stable compound, thus inhibiting gas exchange in the lungs.
We are all interested to see if Teddy can defend her theory with new found evidence. I believe there is nothing moremto be learned on th3 slope of 1079.
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There is no point in going for gamma radiation data and reporting this data to us. as Shamil reports
(from 5 to 25 microroentgen - this is the natural background of gamma radiation),
If the examination of Levashov says in 2 places about only beta radiation, which will be difficult to find now.
https://chemicalsafety.ilo.org/dyn/icsc/showcard.display?p_lang=ru&p_card_id=1709&p_version=2
(https://i.ibb.co/r7LF8Bv/nitroc.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
The card doesn’t say about the effects of radiation, but it could also be
I think we need to explore the mountain around for magnetic anomalies, lightning attraction in summer,
what can be required for such phenomena. like St. Elmo's fires in the mountains during a blizzard, the so-called corona discharges,
and thereby contribute to electrification of clothing and detonation from electrostatic discharge.
It seems very likely that the detonation occurred at the moment when they were changing clothes, taking off their sweaters, and shaking dusty blankets.
Recently my sister sent me a text, the original of which I will look for:
About 300 operating Boeing aircraft could explode in mid-air due to a critical defect – Daily Mail, citing the US Federal Aviation Administration. On Boeing 777 aircraft operated by United and American Airlines, static electricity has been detected near the fuel tanks, which can cause the fuel tanks to ignite and detonate. A request to correct the defect was sent to the manufacturer back in March 2024, but it is not known whether Boeing has corrected the problem.
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We appreciate that there was burn damage on clothes, but none on or in the tent. Are they to be considered linked or parallel to each other?
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In the film of Komsomolakaya Pravda
"Dyatlov Pass. The End of History",
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbu_DtqdH7I
Peter Bartholomew speaks (in position 5-45)
"The problem is that it flared up on our previous trip.
This is our fault, because there were severe frosts, the stove had to be heated the whole night, and the man on duty slept, and he piled too much firewood, and the outlet pipe became hot, and sparks were flying...
It seemed to have dried out in the frost, and it burst into flames... And there were holes not only in the place where the pipe came out. They were all along the tent. We then re-stitched that end; during the hike we made a temporary patch from a blanket, sewed up this place. And when we returned, Igor Dyatlov was the one who repaired it himself....@
Ivanov asked Bartolomey about this and obtained such explanation...