Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: SURI on January 01, 2025, 05:04:21 AM
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The tourists split into two groups right from the start, which the second group had no idea about. This is also evident from the photographs. The unsuspecting group was killed and the attacking group became victims of a tragic accident. 5 tourists were attacked and pacified. Then it was just enough to let the frost take effect. But the attackers didn't succeed as they planned and ended up dead themselves. Both Yuris are heroes. By reaching the cedar and climbing the tree, they delayed the attackers, who were then forced to seek alternative shelter in the surrounding area. And we already know how they ended up.
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Please define "right from the start" and how (namely) are the hikers divided into two groups.
You wrote "evident from the photographs", can you elaborate?
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One group is Group 4 in the ravine. They are often seen together in photographs, except for Kolevatov, who preferred not to be photographed much. It wasn't very pleasant for Zolotaryov either. They built a den together and died together. And the remaining 5 are the second group. It is not difficult to distinguish these 2 groups if you notice how each was dressed at the time of death. I think it was no coincidence that Zolotaryov joined the group and Yudin left.
Next, we have a reversed negative from Zolotary's camera, which he had with him at the time of his death. In my opinion, it shows a dying or already dead Slobodin.
I'm new here and I don't know how to add a picture now. shock1
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I'm new here and I don't know how to add a picture now.
Under the field for the post there is a Add image to post option. See if it works.
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Reversed negative from Zolotaryov's camera under the title Woven Mesh. Here, I think, you can see the body of Slobodin.
(https://i.ibb.co/XSR1Kcy/1000031815.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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that is a damaged film, I take photos on film regularly and develop them myself, you can forget about that roll of film because there is no actual information on it
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I believe it's Slobodin. He may have been still alive, but then his head sank deeper into the snow and his body shifted slightly. His body was found in a similar position.
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...and I thought they were all out there to get a grade 3 certification. All behavior is motivated. What was it?
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Apparently there was something more to it. Just as the four of them from the ravine managed to fool other tourists, they have fooled you too. When they decided to attack, it must have been a huge shock for the remaining tourists. Krivonischenko managed to take a picture of the flashlight beam pointing at the tent at the last moment. I think he and Doroshenko were the last to leave the tent. The first to be eliminated was Dyatlov. His body position doesn't even look like he's walking on his own.
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https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-02.png)
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Hmm, the dimensions are really small. But it's possible that he intended to take a photo of something like that. As evidence for someone?
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Pareidolia, I think.
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I think the whole incident was organized by 4 tourists from the ravine. These 4 tourists chased the other tourists out of the tent, then unplannedly started a fire and made a den. But they originally planned to return to the tent after placing the flashlight on the slope. Their plans were thwarted by both Yuris. I guess it's not that big of a mystery. Any other sequence of events doesn't make sense.
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The only mystery is why the four of them did it. On whose orders? Zolotaryov came to the group already prepared with his secret camera, which even Yudin did not know about. While he was allowed to keep his camera during the incident, Krivonischenko was not, even though he already had it in his hand and ready to take another photo.
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A gun or knife would be preferrable to a camera, I think.
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I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?
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Why use guns when the frost solves everything? It would probably be suspicious if 4 tourists returned and the remaining 5 tourists were found murdered in a pool of blood. Judging by the discovery of the bodies, it doesn't appear that the tourists were cooperating with each other. Five tourists died elsewhere and differently than the four tourists in the ravine. And why would Zolotaryov have his camera around his neck during the incident? Probably to document the entire incident.
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Hello, my first ever response so I'll be brief. I tend to favor the idea that there was a fight amongst the group however I think it was the result of vodka they may have pilfered (and were accused of pilfering) and a buildup of aggression to that point. I'm also not completely sold on the cuts coming from the inside or if they were it was a spontaneous reaction of someone "running their mouth." One thing that nags at me, isn't it possible someone in the group had explosives? I remember Yudin was a geologist, so how did he gather his samples? It would explain the orbs seen if one of them, or several were chucking dynamite around. And also, the injuries.
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If it had been just an innocent fight, not all the tourists would have participated in it and the two Yuris wouldn't have ended up half-naked on a distant tree. There, it was a fight to the death.
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If it had been just an innocent fight, not all the tourists would have participated in it and the two Yuris wouldn't have ended up half-naked on a distant tree. There, it was a fight to the death.
The two Yuri's were half naked because they were stripped after death and weren't wearing much anyway. And it's not necessary for all of them to have participated physically, such as the four found in the ravine. It could be argued they may have just been the recipients of an enormous blast. It's possible Slobodin and Kolmogorova were actually with that group but survived the blast. It doesn't even have to be a fight but someone trying to get a fire going with katabatic winds raging by using explosives. I know, so many what ifs lol. read1
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Reversed negative from Zolotaryov's camera under the title Woven Mesh. Here, I think, you can see the body of Slobodin.
(https://i.ibb.co/XSR1Kcy/1000031815.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Great observation!
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There would probably be some traces after the explosion. Slobodin certainly wouldn't have been able to walk that distance with such an injury, let alone crawl out of the ravine. Kolevatov couldn't do it either. And if the picture really shows Slobodin dying, it must have been taken before all four died in the ravine.
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There would probably be some traces after the explosion. Slobodin certainly wouldn't have been able to walk that distance with such an injury, let alone crawl out of the ravine. Kolevatov couldn't do it either. And if the picture really shows Slobodin dying, it must have been taken before all four died in the ravine.
No traces necessarily after 3 weeks of snow and wind. So, you're saying Slobodin's massive head trauma was received right where he fell? He might not have even landed in the ravine but was further away from any explosion. Why was Zolotaryov wearing Dubinina's coat and they were so close together? You would think those in the ravine suffered the same event with varying degrees of wounding.
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Yes, I think the same thing happened to everyone in the ravine. When it happened, they were all together and they all got hurt at the same time. I also think that Slobodin's injury occurred where he was found. Only Dyatlov's location looks like he didn't get there on his own. That back position is so weird.
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Yes, I think the same thing happened to everyone in the ravine. When it happened, they were all together and they all got hurt at the same time. I also think that Slobodin's injury occurred where he was found. Only Dyatlov's location looks like he didn't get there on his own. That back position is so weird.
There's just one problem with that, Slobodin had multiple head injuries, like he fell down over and over again. I guess that fits with your theory if you believe that mesh picture is him and Zolotaryov doubled back, however according to the bodies' locations (for those that don't believe that picture is him), the only person really capable of bashing him on the spot he fell was Zina.
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Yes, I think the same thing happened to everyone in the ravine. When it happened, they were all together and they all got hurt at the same time. I also think that Slobodin's injury occurred where he was found. Only Dyatlov's location looks like he didn't get there on his own. That back position is so weird.
There's just one problem with that, Slobodin had multiple head injuries, like he fell down over and over again. I guess that fits with your theory if you believe that mesh picture is him and Zolotaryov doubled back, however according to the bodies' locations (for those that don't believe that picture is him), the only person really capable of bashing him on the spot he fell was Zina.
What multiple head injuries did Slobidin have ? The photo negative is a tiny part of the photo , that shows no detail of foreground with equal definition of tone , photography film doesn't work like that , you can't have focus definition and none at the same time.
Slobidin has a small fracture , not massive head trauma?
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Yes, I think the same thing happened to everyone in the ravine. When it happened, they were all together and they all got hurt at the same time. I also think that Slobodin's injury occurred where he was found. Only Dyatlov's location looks like he didn't get there on his own. That back position is so weird.
There's just one problem with that, Slobodin had multiple head injuries, like he fell down over and over again. I guess that fits with your theory if you believe that mesh picture is him and Zolotaryov doubled back, however according to the bodies' locations (for those that don't believe that picture is him), the only person really capable of bashing him on the spot he fell was Zina.
What multiple head injuries did Slobidin have ? The photo negative is a tiny part of the photo , that shows no detail of foreground with equal definition of tone , photography film doesn't work like that , you can't have focus definition and none at the same time.
Slobidin has a small fracture , not massive head trauma?
I'm going by the autopsy where it's stated it looks like he fell on his head over and over.
"Boris Alekseevich Vozrozhdenniy suggested that the fracture in his skull could be done with some blunt object. Medical autopsy further states that Slobodin probably suffered loss of coordination due to initial shock right after the blow that could speed up his death from hypothermia. However the conclusion is predictably careful. Death of Rustem Slobodin is judged as a result from hypothermia. All bruises and scratches were blamed on last minute agony. Although it is still somewhat unclear how did he manage to harm his exterior hands and legs. When the person falls even in an irrational state it is usually the palms that suffer the most as well as medial aspects of the legs. Injury to the head are less common, especially bilateral ones. It is also unusual to harm the face and sides of the skull while the back of the head has no damage. In case of Slobodin's body we see the opposite. His injury pattern is a reverse of what we would usually see in injuries suffered by a freezing man in the last minutes of his life. It looks as if Rustem fell repeatedly on his face as he was walking down the mountain. And every time he fell he managed to hit the sides of the his head." https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Slobodin
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0rZFz8/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy!
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Yes, I think the same thing happened to everyone in the ravine. When it happened, they were all together and they all got hurt at the same time. I also think that Slobodin's injury occurred where he was found. Only Dyatlov's location looks like he didn't get there on his own. That back position is so weird.
There's just one problem with that, Slobodin had multiple head injuries, like he fell down over and over again. I guess that fits with your theory if you believe that mesh picture is him and Zolotaryov doubled back, however according to the bodies' locations (for those that don't believe that picture is him), the only person really capable of bashing him on the spot he fell was Zina.
What multiple head injuries did Slobidin have ? The photo negative is a tiny part of the photo , that shows no detail of foreground with equal definition of tone , photography film doesn't work like that , you can't have focus definition and none at the same time.
Slobidin has a small fracture , not massive head trauma?
I'm going by the autopsy where it's stated it looks like he fell on his head over and over.
"Boris Alekseevich Vozrozhdenniy suggested that the fracture in his skull could be done with some blunt object. Medical autopsy further states that Slobodin probably suffered loss of coordination due to initial shock right after the blow that could speed up his death from hypothermia. However the conclusion is predictably careful. Death of Rustem Slobodin is judged as a result from hypothermia. All bruises and scratches were blamed on last minute agony. Although it is still somewhat unclear how did he manage to harm his exterior hands and legs. When the person falls even in an irrational state it is usually the palms that suffer the most as well as medial aspects of the legs. Injury to the head are less common, especially bilateral ones. It is also unusual to harm the face and sides of the skull while the back of the head has no damage. In case of Slobodin's body we see the opposite. His injury pattern is a reverse of what we would usually see in injuries suffered by a freezing man in the last minutes of his life. It looks as if Rustem fell repeatedly on his face as he was walking down the mountain. And every time he fell he managed to hit the sides of the his head." https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Slobodin
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0rZFz8/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
It does not say that in the autopsy, what you quote is the author of the interpretation of the autopsy in the link. The autopsy concludes the below statement and nothing more or less.
The autopsy concludes this.
Sheet 102
CONCLUSION
Based on the data of the examination of the body of Slobodin Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances of the case, I believe that the death of Slobodin was caused by the action of low temperature/freezing, which is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the blood-filled internal organs, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the third- and fourth-degree freezing of the fingers.
The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing.
The injuries found on Slobodin’s body in the form of abrasions, scrapes and graze wounds were caused by a blunt object as the result of a fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc.
The damage was caused during life, as well as in the agonal state and post mortem.
The data of the examination of Slobodin’s body allows for the presumption that his last meal was 6-8 hours before the time of death. The presence of alcohol was not detected during the examination.
Sheet 103
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Taking account these injuries, in the first hour after they happened Slobodin was able to move and crawl.
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.
FORENSIC MEDICAL EXAMINER REGIONAL
FORENSIC MEDICAL EXAMINATION OFFICE - signature /VOZROZHDENNIY/
Where it says , " I believe that the death of Slobodin was caused by the action of low temperature/freezing, which is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges,"
the meninges are ,
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
nounAnatomy
the three membranes (the dura mater, arachnoid, and pia mater) that line the skull and vertebral canal and enclose the brain and spinal cord.
How do we interoperate this? The swelling is due to freezing is what he states . Let's continue...
"which is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the blood-filled internal organs, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the third- and fourth-degree freezing of the fingers."
Again he links the above as evidence of freezing .
"The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing."
In the above statement from the autopsy, it says "could" have occurred during a fall and states it was caused by a blunt object , these potential blunt objects are suggested to be rocks , ice etc.( There were/are protruding rocks/ice) .
It goes on to say.
"When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing."
This is a bit more difficult to interpret and is confusing, if he got hit on the head by someone else or an explosion, there should be explicit bleeding. Explicit :The meaning of EXPLICIT is fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning
The absence of "explicit" bleeding under the meninges, suggests freezing , it's a double statement I suppose. He banged his head( or got hit on the head) and that left him to freeze but he froze so quick that it didn't allow bleeding ?. ( There are some more modern evidence based research that notes fractures of the skull can be a result of freezing).
The statement notes that Slobidin was potential able to move and crawl for an hour.
The abrasions on hands etc are all consistent with hypothermia and fighting for survival. The hands become frozen fists and the palm does not reach out to catch the fall, it is knuckle and outer sides of the hand that inherits the friction of ice and gravity, the limbs and joints start to freeze to the point where a determined individual will crawl to where salvation may await . No where does it state he fell on his head over and over , in any document.
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Thank you for correcting me, he was a forensic expert and not an autopsy doctor/coroner. I do agree with his view, though, and assessment; you can see skull fractures on both sides and multiple facial abrasions.
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Sorry old jedi, I'm not meaning to correct you , I keep rereading things and come up with different interpretations, when things are written professionally I now understand that they are written to try and not leave any ambiguity , or at least where they can.
His view ,Boris Alekseevich Vozrozhdenniy, if that's who you are referring to , does not say anything with what you share in the link that you quoted. That is someone else's interpretation and speculation.
The fracture is on the left and the diagram with the red hash lines represents hemorrhages in the muscles. However the autopsy says, The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the region of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right /postmortem/ I think the post mortem is meant to say posthumous , I don't know if this means the divergence of the sutures is after death.
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From the whole scene it is clear that the four tourists on the slope were scattered, fleeing from danger, except for Dyatlov. I think he had already been immobilized by the tent and carried to the site. Two Yuris hid in a tree. It all could have started somewhere on the slope where the tracks of 8 tourists end. In contrast, the other four tourists stayed together until the end. They were in no hurry, they calmly built a den for the four of them and built a fire. They even had time to take some clothes from the two Yuris. Their peace was only interrupted by the subsequent tragic event. The two differently functioning groups are simply visible at first glance.
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Sorry old jedi, I'm not meaning to correct you , I keep rereading things and come up with different interpretations, when things are written professionally I now understand that they are written to try and not leave any ambiguity , or at least where they can.
His view ,Boris Alekseevich Vozrozhdenniy, if that's who you are referring to , does not say anything with what you share in the link that you quoted. That is someone else's interpretation and speculation.
The fracture is on the left and the diagram with the red hash lines represents hemorrhages in the muscles. However the autopsy says, The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the region of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right /postmortem/ I think the post mortem is meant to say posthumous , I don't know if this means the divergence of the sutures is after death.
No need to apologize for correcting me, I was being sincere and not sarcastic.
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From the whole scene it is clear that the four tourists on the slope were scattered, fleeing from danger, except for Dyatlov. I think he had already been immobilized by the tent and carried to the site. Two Yuris hid in a tree. It all could have started somewhere on the slope where the tracks of 8 tourists end. In contrast, the other four tourists stayed together until the end. They were in no hurry, they calmly built a den for the four of them and built a fire. They even had time to take some clothes from the two Yuris. Their peace was only interrupted by the subsequent tragic event. The two differently functioning groups are simply visible at first glance.
I think it was Zina who wrote that Igor was being rude and that she hardly recognized him when he acted that way. Also, other examples of tension in the group, I think it was Krivonischenko who was forced to sleep too close to the fire and called everyone traitors. Dubinina contradicts herself and says sleeping in the same bed with Zina is like a dream, but the mood is evil as hell. It could be a combination of two theories. For example, a snow slab releases and some are seriously hurt. A fight later rages because someone like Zolotaryov already warned against camping directly on the mountain. Or after the tent event, Igor insists everyone help the wounded to the tree line and only when everyone is taken care of do they attempt to return. I realize your theory is dependent on that mesh photo being Slobodins corpse and I do like the way your mind works however I have to respectfully disagree and think it's more pareidolia than anything. However, it seems you are the first one to ever equate that photo to something tangible instead of angels and demons so props to you for that!
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The photo doesn't play a role in this. I deduced this theory from the overall scene and the placement of the bodies. The first person to be neutralized would of course be Dyatlov. And that right near the tent. His jacket and flashlight were also found there. His finding of the body does not indicate that he was in motion before. I think he was the first to freeze to death.
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The photo doesn't play a role in this. I deduced this theory from the overall scene and the placement of the bodies. The first person to be neutralized would of course be Dyatlov. And that right near the tent. His jacket and flashlight were also found there. His finding of the body does not indicate that he was in motion before. I think he was the first to freeze to death.
Dyatlov was found the furthest from the tent in relation to the three that attempted to return. His arms were clenched like he was wrestling with someone or trying to prevent someone from choking him. The flashlight can be explained as a beacon for return and his jacket used to stuff a hole in the tent at the time. Am I missing something about your theory? I admit I am new so forgive my ignorance but are you claiming he was killed next to the tent and then dragged down the slope a half mile or more?
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I'm also new to this forum. He definitely wrestled, but I think at the tent and then he didn't get up and was brought to the place where he was found. The flashlight on the tent was turned off, the second one that was turned on on the slope was more of a beacon. There are different testimonies about the jacket. Furthermore, I think neither Slobodin nor Zina ever got to the cedar. The fire was started by four from the ravine, while the two Yuris hid from them in a tree.
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After skimming all comments, I note that a few details have not been addressed.
Urine in the bladder
The post mortem report of Rustem states: The bladder contained up to 200 cm3 of cloudy pale yellow liquid.
Contrerary: the post mortem report of Igor states that he had in the mortuary 1000 cm3 of liquid in his bladder: this is a normal value for victims found after death by hypothermia.
Like Yuri Dor (found with 150 cm3 urine in his bladder), this detail suggests that Rustem en Yuri Dor had not survived until their body lost consciousness for the last time when the core temperature of both bodies had declined below 29 degrees Celsius.
In case of Yuri Dor it may not be excluded that he had been victim of a rewarming shock halfway during the process of being victim of hypothermia
In case of Rustem it may well be likely that at a stroke caused by his skill, brain injury.
Personally my analysis shows that he had spent the night in the tent together with Zinaida and both had descended after breakfast to the Cedar/Ravine area to search for the seven others.
Reading the estimate time for a last meal in the post mortem report, this analysis shows that both had breakfast around 8 or 8:30 pm.
Both details may well result in Rustem succumbing to a sudden stroke around 2 - 3 pm on Feb 2nd.
b) lividity spots
The post mortem report of Rustem states: Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the posterior surface of the neck, torso and extremities.
These spots are seen on the back of his body, while he had been found face down: this is a clear indicator that he had been turned over some 6 hours after his death.
According to my analysis, Zinaida had cared for the unconscious body of Rustem from around 2 - 3 pm to around 8 pm or so on Feb 2nd.
At 8 pm Zinaida had turned Rustem's body face down and she had tried to make it back to the tent in a state of 'dream going home' as one of the last survival instincts in humans. Her body core temperature had dropped already too low: she had not made it very far.
c) Skull fracture and options to operate and survive afterwards
Books on survival of mountaineering accidents (e.g. after a fall) report survivors of similar skull fracture/damage as Rustem, but these skull fracture/damage may cause a sudden fatal stroke as well some time afterwards.
d) Logic places for having a skull accident
Looking at the maps, there are two places for having accidents resulting in skull accidents:
1. During the ascend - 35 % on average over 1 km - after slipping and gaining speed during the slide to 30 km/u and hitting a blunt rock or tree while another victim hits the head from the other side
2. Fall from the icy side of the ravine face down.
According to my analysis including the two watches around Thibo's wrist:
- Thibo fell sideways from the side of the ravine around 16 pm Feb 1st
- Rustem or had obtained his injury during or the ascend and as wounded had stayed with Zinaida in the tent during the fatal night for the others, or Rustem had slipped from the icy side of the ravine while trying to retrieve the dead body of Lyudmila from the ravine to be placed next to the dead bodies of Alexander Semyon and Thibo. In this case the ravine had been too icy to succeed.
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But why would Slobodin go looking for other tourists with only one shoe?
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Something I always wondered is what if some of these folks lost a shoe due to the deep snow pulling one off? Do all the people only wearing one shoe have the other shoe accounted for in the tent?
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After skimming all comments, I note that a few details have not been addressed.
Urine in the bladder
The post mortem report of Rustem states: The bladder contained up to 200 cm3 of cloudy pale yellow liquid.
Contrerary: the post mortem report of Igor states that he had in the mortuary 1000 cm3 of liquid in his bladder: this is a normal value for victims found after death by hypothermia.
Like Yuri Dor (found with 150 cm3 urine in his bladder), this detail suggests that Rustem en Yuri Dor had not survived until their body lost consciousness for the last time when the core temperature of both bodies had declined below 29 degrees Celsius.
In case of Yuri Dor it may not be excluded that he had been victim of a rewarming shock halfway during the process of being victim of hypothermia
In case of Rustem it may well be likely that at a stroke caused by his skill, brain injury.
Personally my analysis shows that he had spent the night in the tent together with Zinaida and both had descended after breakfast to the Cedar/Ravine area to search for the seven others.
Reading the estimate time for a last meal in the post mortem report, this analysis shows that both had breakfast around 8 or 8:30 pm.
Both details may well result in Rustem succumbing to a sudden stroke around 2 - 3 pm on Feb 2nd.
b) lividity spots
The post mortem report of Rustem states: Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the posterior surface of the neck, torso and extremities.
These spots are seen on the back of his body, while he had been found face down: this is a clear indicator that he had been turned over some 6 hours after his death.
According to my analysis, Zinaida had cared for the unconscious body of Rustem from around 2 - 3 pm to around 8 pm or so on Feb 2nd.
At 8 pm Zinaida had turned Rustem's body face down and she had tried to make it back to the tent in a state of 'dream going home' as one of the last survival instincts in humans. Her body core temperature had dropped already too low: she had not made it very far.
c) Skull fracture and options to operate and survive afterwards
Books on survival of mountaineering accidents (e.g. after a fall) report survivors of similar skull fracture/damage as Rustem, but these skull fracture/damage may cause a sudden fatal stroke as well some time afterwards.
d) Logic places for having a skull accident
Looking at the maps, there are two places for having accidents resulting in skull accidents:
1. During the ascend - 35 % on average over 1 km - after slipping and gaining speed during the slide to 30 km/u and hitting a blunt rock or tree while another victim hits the head from the other side
2. Fall from the icy side of the ravine face down.
According to my analysis including the two watches around Thibo's wrist:
- Thibo fell sideways from the side of the ravine around 16 pm Feb 1st
- Rustem or had obtained his injury during or the ascend and as wounded had stayed with Zinaida in the tent during the fatal night for the others, or Rustem had slipped from the icy side of the ravine while trying to retrieve the dead body of Lyudmila from the ravine to be placed next to the dead bodies of Alexander Semyon and Thibo. In this case the ravine had been too icy to succeed.
Very nice outline. Some issues I have are that the lividity could have been misdiagnosed. I'll have to find it when I have time but somewhere I read that they could have been spots related to the hypothermia itself. I can see both Yuri's being moved after death but there's really nothing nefarious about it imo. The other stuff about Slobodin and Zina in the tent all night I just can't fathom.
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I find it unlikely that Rustem sustained his injuries neither at the tent, nor on the descent to the forest. Between cedar and ravine, I like the injuries occurring at the ravine rather than cedar. If at the ravine, then perhaps he, Lyuda and Zolo all fell together.
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I find it unlikely that Rustem sustained his injuries neither at the tent, nor on the descent to the forest. Between cedar and ravine, I like the injuries occurring at the ravine rather than cedar. If at the ravine, then perhaps he, Lyuda and Zolo all fell together.
No disrespect to any living members of the extended Dyatlov family but I don't think Igor was cut to be a leader. Ok so he built a radio, and? He was an engineer that made a stove, and? Slobodin in everything I see was the natural leader. Everyone thinks the coverup was something military but that's the distraction. How would it look if seven comrades and two comradesses (I made that word up lol) killed each other in the Soviet Union? What I see is after the ravine incident is Rustem and Igor fighting and Rustem winning while Zina kept going. His win was hollow, but it was still a win if someone recognizes it..
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I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?
Sorry for the delayed reaction but why don't you think that the majority of the group (under 25) could turn on each other given the circumstances? RIP Mr. Yudin, but he really knew, and I don't think it was sciatica at all that caused him to bail! And Zolo (I like that moniker, reminds me of the General from the movie Romancing the Stone) was there because he requested it, and like Lydia (my Americanism) said, "At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."
She reminds me of Yakov Smirnoff with that line.
Be a cold war Soviet and cast aside all ethnocentricities.
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One image graphically shows that the tourists' footprints end somewhere in the line near Svobodin. After that, they were not visible, and then fewer were visible. On top of all this, Svobodin, of the three on the slope, was found sideways, outside their line. That's why I think it all started in the place between those upper and lower prints. There they split into three directions. Up until then they had been moving slowly and orderly because they were carrying Dyatlov.
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One image graphically shows that the tourists' footprints end somewhere in the line near Svobodin. After that, they were not visible, and then fewer were visible. On top of all this, Svobodin, of the three on the slope, was found sideways, outside their line. That's why I think it all started in the place between those upper and lower prints. There they split into three directions. Up until then they had been moving slowly and orderly because they were carrying Dyatlov.
It could be Zina in the mesh photo? Or the pile of clothes that wasn't snowed under because it was in the woods? With all due respect, sir, c'mon.
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I read somewhere that Slobodin had a black felt boot on his right foot. (Valenka)
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I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?
Sorry for the delayed reaction but why don't you think that the majority of the group (under 25) could turn on each other given the circumstances? RIP Mr. Yudin, but he really knew, and I don't think it was sciatica at all that caused him to bail! And Zolo (I like that moniker, reminds me of the General from the movie Romancing the Stone) was there because he requested it, and like Lydia (my Americanism) said, "At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."
She reminds me of Yakov Smirnoff with that line.
Be a cold war Soviet and cast aside all ethnocentricities.
I'm not sure by what you mean when saying " given the circumstances"? . We don't have the circumstances and that's the problem. Of course people can fall out and turn on each other and such things are recorded on other hikes amongst tourists and some of these were involved in the search. One such incident ended in the group splitting up and some drowning . Tourism was a big pastime in the Soviet Union for many people , as it was in most countries. I think there were at least 11 other hikes by students in that part of the Urals that winter ( it may include summer).
Two of the closest location tourist groups to Dyatlov group also ran in to difficulty, a burnt tent , shortage of sleeping bags, illness and a case of frostbite etc.
In this instance, I think the dyatlov group would have enough sense and diversity with leadership skills ( irrelevant of who may have been the actual leader) to resolve any problems encountered. I can't see an internal group fight or leadership skills being the spark to leave the tent and equipment.
The non life threatening injuries of bruises and abrasions are common in hypothermia cases, the broken ribs and skull fracture are a little more difficult to explain but do tend to fit with where and how the bodies were found.
If my memory serves me correctly, Zolotaryov had a choice of a couple of different hikes but chose the Dyatlov group . Dyatlovs group were all familiar with each other and they lost their 10th member due to him having had too many hikes and not fulfilling his commitments, this is why Zolotaryov comes to be in the group. Lyuda is only stating the obvious, who wants a stranger in a small tent for 3 weeks ?. It's not that they don't want Zolotaryov, the don't really know him , it's just strangers take a bit of work and they got to like him.
Ps, what's a cold war Soviet ?
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I read somewhere that Slobodin had a black felt boot on his right foot. (Valenka)
Yes he did. It can also be seen in the autopsy photos.
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I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?
Sorry for the delayed reaction but why don't you think that the majority of the group (under 25) could turn on each other given the circumstances? RIP Mr. Yudin, but he really knew, and I don't think it was sciatica at all that caused him to bail! And Zolo (I like that moniker, reminds me of the General from the movie Romancing the Stone) was there because he requested it, and like Lydia (my Americanism) said, "At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."
She reminds me of Yakov Smirnoff with that line.
Be a cold war Soviet and cast aside all ethnocentricities.
I'm not sure by what you mean when saying " given the circumstances"? . We don't have the circumstances and that's the problem. Of course people can fall out and turn on each other and such things are recorded on other hikes amongst tourists and some of these were involved in the search. One such incident ended in the group splitting up and some drowning . Tourism was a big pastime in the Soviet Union for many people , as it was in most countries. I think there were at least 11 other hikes by students in that part of the Urals that winter ( it may include summer).
Two of the closest location tourist groups to Dyatlov group also ran in to difficulty, a burnt tent , shortage of sleeping bags, illness and a case of frostbite etc.
In this instance, I think the dyatlov group would have enough sense and diversity with leadership skills ( irrelevant of who may have been the actual leader) to resolve any problems encountered. I can't see an internal group fight or leadership skills being the spark to leave the tent and equipment.
The non life threatening injuries of bruises and abrasions are common in hypothermia cases, the broken ribs and skull fracture are a little more difficult to explain but do tend to fit with where and how the bodies were found.
If my memory serves me correctly, Zolotaryov had a choice of a couple of different hikes but chose the Dyatlov group . Dyatlovs group were all familiar with each other and they lost their 10th member due to him having had too many hikes and not fulfilling his commitments, this is why Zolotaryov comes to be in the group. Lyuda is only stating the obvious, who wants a stranger in a small tent for 3 weeks ?. It's not that they don't want Zolotaryov, the don't really know him , it's just strangers take a bit of work and they got to like him.
Ps, what's a cold war Soviet ?
The circumstances would be kids with no common sense thinking it's warm because the rush of "warm" air that sounded like a jet engine? It's called a weather front; but they didn't know that. And Cold War Soviets are the people they were at the time. Put yourself in their minds, it's not a bad thing necessarily lol. I try to empathize. Too many people confuse that word with sympathize. Both girls were virgins, probably most of the dudes were too.
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The circumstances would be kids with no common sense thinking it's warm because the rush of "warm" air that sounded like a jet engine? It's called a weather front; but they didn't know that. And Cold War Soviets are the people they were at the time. Put yourself in their minds, it's not a bad thing necessarily lol. I try to empathize. Too many people confuse that word with sympathize. Both girls were virgins, probably most of the dudes were too.
I don't think or see them as "kids" and certainly they were not without common sense?. To put it into context from my perspective and my understanding of tourism, the Dyatlovs were fit and well experienced, they had all undertaken many hikes and tours, in all season's in previous years . Likewise, so did many other students and people at that time. Many of the general population would have cold weather experience and expertise as that's just the environment that they have lived with , from the Mansi to the other indigenous people. I'm sure the Mansi have very young kids that lived in those conditions.
I don't think they thought it was warm , perhaps less cold at certain times ? We can see that the temperature can vary considerably, the hikers would know this and that it could get cold very quickly and I'm sure they understood weather fronts , winds, storms etc. Remember, there are other groups of student hikers doing the same thing.
I'm not sure what the putting my mind into a Cold War Soviet is meant to mean? ( To many variables) Or being a virgin for that matter....I don't see the connection to the incident. From looking at the historical hikes of the group and other links to the Soviet Union , many aspects of the students were similar to the west , education , musical instruments, outdoor activities, they had camera's, watches , booze , fags , films , songs and love . They were chased out of a railway station for singing songs , spoke to children about their adventures , wanted to visit the museum but we're short on time , watched films with the locals , showed interest in the Mansi etc.
It all looks pretty healthy to me , it's just youth learning about life and enjoying the outdoors , probably better educated , happier , fitter and mentally happier than much of today's people and perhaps saving their virginty for the right person for them.
It would seem something tipped the odds against them as is usually the case from the UK to the USA , Europe and everywhere else in-between where it comes to incidents that involve cold weather , the cold got the better of them .
How are you using your empathy and what ethnocentricities are you casting aside to be a Cold War Soviet ?
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I think it would be good to get back on topic and not stray from it. For example, I wonder if Krivonischenko and Doroshenko could have left some kind of sign on the tree, because I think they were the only ones who could have done that. Has anyone ever examined that tree up close? Krivonischenko has already left us the last photo, but we can't decipher it. But I think it's the light from the flashlight.
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I think it would be good to get back on topic and not stray from it. For example, I wonder if Krivonischenko and Doroshenko could have left some kind of sign on the tree, because I think they were the only ones who could have done that. Has anyone ever examined that tree up close? Krivonischenko has already left us the last photo, but we can't decipher it. But I think it's the light from the flashlight.
The fact the tree was a mile away from the tent and that they were underdressed even before dying really speaks to their resilience. I'm not sure they would be in their right minds to leave any sign.
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Like all of us, you are circling around the unknown compelling force. Surely, rash impulse is an explanation motivated by rivalry, poor immature choice or desparation. Remember there were nine functioning minds there and we have evidence from the diaries that all were not sheep when it comes to decisions. So there is that compared to external compelling force. Some advocate they were forced, some say lured from the tent. I hope Teddy can help with her opinion regarding the wintery conditions being that force, which I favor.
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I just got done shoveling snow for 15 minutes in -5.56 Celsius. I'm in my early 50's but have always been athletic. I was dressed pretty decent with a cap and gloves and never really got cold because of my constant digging. Athletes in their early 20s have a much higher heart rate so I can see how the two Yuri's survived as long as they did because they were busy. My instinct stills tells me that two separate events happened. The first one I think would be a slab avalanche or brawl in the tent, followed by the second event downslope. I think once people started dying and some tried returning, Slobodin and Dyatlov fought. His arms being clenched is the clincher for me lol.
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You could be right. There are others who think the ravine is key. In that regard, one must consider the question of the clothes found in the den and on the path to the den. There is the issue of the cut branches and their placement in the den. Since the Ravine 4 were found outside the den, a question can be raised about that. The theories range from trip/fall to altercation to blast damage to assassins. Take your pick! You can appreciate how frustrating it was that Zolo did not write a final note.
I favor the trip/fall over a collapsed cornice at the ravine. You rightly state that activity keeps you going in cold weather, but I think we are contemplating extreme cold and prolonged exposure.
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If Zolotaryov had a pencil and notebook with him, even a newspaper would have been enough; he could have written something earlier, perhaps by the fire, when they had time to cut clothes. But he didn't.
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You could be right. There are others who think the ravine is key. In that regard, one must consider the question of the clothes found in the den and on the path to the den. There is the issue of the cut branches and their placement in the den. Since the Ravine 4 were found outside the den, a question can be raised about that. The theories range from trip/fall to altercation to blast damage to assassins. Take your pick! You can appreciate how frustrating it was that Zolo did not write a final note.
I favor the trip/fall over a collapsed cornice at the ravine. You rightly state that activity keeps you going in cold weather, but I think we are contemplating extreme cold and prolonged exposure.
I had to refresh myself on what a snow cornice is but it's definitely a possibility. So which direction would the cornice face? This diagram is confusing where it labels the upwind part. Does the cornice face the slope or face the cedar? The ravine is before the cedar so how didn't they see it beforehand? They had to have passed it on the way to the cedar and known what it was.
(https://i.ibb.co/CH76cpr/Mount-Windsor-Cornice2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KrqDPc1)
pic hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
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If I reverse the colors of these two images (Eagle 1 light and Eagle 2 light) again, I find that they are photos of the same thing. Once up close and once from a distance. Maybe the other pictures are also taken in pairs and there are ten of them.
(https://i.ibb.co/8M4m5bS/1000032197.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/3Chz4TZ/1000032196.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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For newcomers, these are negatives from Zolotaryov's camera, which he had around his neck at the time of his death.
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He could have done a better job taking a picture of a ski forest.
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A hollow, cut-off ski pole in a tent – a possibility of hiding a message? And only the last person to take a picture of the attackers could have wanted to hide it there.
In that last photo, you can see not only the light from the flashlight, but also the outline of a squatting figure. The head and bent right arm are hidden behind the moving light of the flashlight. As he sat down, the flashlight also moved downwards.
(https://i.ibb.co/bg8231B/1000032241.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MD3GhnV)
(https://i.ibb.co/RY8mMVM/1000032240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2WJQLfL)
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It looks like the real Evening Otorten has begun, as planned. But not for fun.
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And all this under the leadership of Dr. Tibeaux, the postdoctorate of sciences Dubinina, and the chief constructor Kolevatov.
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Imagine that Evening's horror. Maybe you're already alone in the tent, your friends are outside the tent, and your other "friends" are attacking them, as you found out through the tent's cross-sections, and now they want to get you too. One of them starts shining a Dyatlov flashlight on you and comes after you. You don't know what to do first. Whether to grab a camera and take pictures, or cut a stick and leave a message, or cut a tent.
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I think they didn't all run out of the tent at once, but gradually. Dyatlov was the first to be lured out and was immediately attacked by a group of four and his flashlight was taken from him. Kolmogorova could have been the next one to hear something and unsuspectingly come out of the tent. Then it could have been Slobodin, who had already heard more and ran out more urgently with only one shoe. Only the last two could climb out through the tent that had been cut open. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko.
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All any of us need is evidence. Just because a thing is logically consistent does not mean it is actually right. When people get too enthusuastic in their construct, it is a short leap, but a long haul to write the "tell all" explanation for the DP9. Several do this, but nobody is completely satisfied.
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I consider the Evening Otorten as proof. There is a clearly identified leading group, which ultimately ended up in the ravine together. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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I think I could even write the order of death of all the tourists. It is mistakenly assumed that both Yuris died first. I don't think so. It might also seem that when they were found by the fire, they started the fire. I don't think so either. I would put Dyatlov first and Kolevatov last.
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If you detail your arguement, the forum may give you a review. Be advised that theories are defeated in two ways. First, the theory does not include all the established facts. Second, the researcher makes a speculation by logic or intuition . Many investigators use induction. ( this swan is white, so all swans are white) as opposed to deduction ( all swans I've seen are white, the next one will also be white). Put differntly, induction argues if you've seen one you have seen them all. Deduction is from many clues,, one conclusion. Both methods are entirely logical, but may be wrong in fact as you can tell. Further, if you are being scientific about this matter, science deals in greater or lesser probability versus absolute certainty. Science has very, very few immutable laws ( everything hotter gets colder etc.) but instead has many theories ( which means the best explanation until something better comes along ( theory of evolution as an example)). Good luck.
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I think the key to everything is that Combat leaflet – the Evening Otorten, which was dated February 1st. Everything fits together and corresponds to what happened at that place on that date.
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And who was against whom is also clear from both the combat leaflet and the overall scene.
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And who was against whom is also clear from both the combat leaflet and the overall scene.
I can't help my self , dear suri,
How does the combat leaflet fit and how does it fit everything together.?
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I'm really sorry that you don't see that and are unnecessarily looking for other explanations that have gotten you nowhere. Do you think that the combat leaflet with this title appeared there by chance and then "suddenly" 9 tourists died? Doesn't the autopsy report say that the tourists bore signs of a struggle? Don't you see the battered Kolmogorova, where it's most visible?