Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: mja Mahé on March 26, 2025, 06:49:29 AM
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Hello.
I've once again delved into this Dyatlov Pass incident puzzle after watching a few videos on YouTube about it.
There are a few points I raised in the comments of one video.
First, the Dyatlov group had some ticket collectors in its ranks. Some members of the group hadn't paid for their train tickets and had hidden under the seats.
What came to mind when I heard this was a French UFO case involving a train and a UFO that landed on the tracks. It would then be necessary to consider that our extraterrestrial visitors have a strong taste for justice in order to justify their intervention against the Dyatlov group following their misdeeds against a Russian railway company.
There is another point I'll discuss later, as I haven't yet finished my investigation...the engraved symbols.
But let's get back to the topic at hand: radioactivity. I left all the far-fetched theories about nuclear testing in the area aside, believing that besides radioactivity, there are other effects of an atomic explosion that no one has considered. I'm thinking, among other things, of the blast effect that would have literally bombarded nearby trees with rocks and various debris.
So, I searched the internet for the connection between nuclear power and the Urals and came across this:
"On September 29, 1957, one of the greatest nuclear disasters in history, but also one of the least known, occurred. An explosion of one of the containers at the Mayak nuclear complex in the Urals exposed 470,000 Soviets to radiation over an area of 20,000 square kilometers." Source: https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/podcasts/affaires-sensibles/29-septembre-1957-l-accident-nucleaire-de-maiak-ou-le-silence-atomique-sovietique-1445546 (https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/podcasts/affaires-sensibles/29-septembre-1957-l-accident-nucleaire-de-maiak-ou-le-silence-atomique-sovietique-1445546)
Following this information, I rushed to Google Maps to see where Mayak was located in relation to the closest point to the Dyatlov group's route, and this is none other than the train departure point at Sverdlovk, the former name of Yekatarinburg: the distance as the crow flies from Mayak to Sverdlovk is approximately 127 km.
127 km is therefore the radius of a circle centered at Mayak, giving us an area of approximately 127*127*3.14 = 50,645.06 square kilometers. This is more than double the 20,000 square kilometers of the area exposed to radiation.
The limit of this area is located approximately 80 kilometers from Mayak, near Syssert.
This explains why the Dyatlov group had radioactivity on their clothing, with the assumption that the members of this group may have been traveling in the radiation zone between Syssert and Mayak before their departure. It should also be noted that no one mentioned radioactivity on the tent or the belongings left inside.
Friendly.
mja Mahé
(https://i.ibb.co/hxw3CQ7K/Distance-de-Serov-par-rapport-Mayak.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fVLjQ61C)
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First, the Dyatlov group had some ticket collectors in its ranks. Some members of the group hadn't paid for their train tickets and had hidden under the seats.
What came to mind when I heard this was a French UFO case involving a train and a UFO that landed on the tracks. It would then be necessary to consider that our extraterrestrial visitors have a strong taste for justice in order to justify their intervention against the Dyatlov group following their misdeeds against a Russian railway company.
Serov-par-rapport-Mayak.jpg[/img][/url]
I don't know what the situation is in your country, but in the Soviet Union a huge number of students traveled on trains without tickets. Do you suppose that many Russian students died later, and what's more, UFOs chased them?
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The limit of this area is located approximately 80 kilometers from Mayak, near Syssert.
This explains why the Dyatlov group had radioactivity on their clothing, with the assumption that the members of this group may have been traveling in the radiation zone between Syssert and Mayak before their departure. It should also be noted that no one mentioned radioactivity on the tent or the belongings left inside.
Where I come from, this is called " the elephant in the middle of the room" It is hard to ignore.
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The radiation from a Kyshtym incident cannot explain the radiation on tourists' clothes. More precisely, this is an explanation from amateurs and for amateurs. It is strange that PhD candidate Kuryakov studied at the Moscow Engineering Physics Institute (MIFI). Apparently, he did not study well there and did not comprehend the specific situation.
The situation after the Kyshtym (MAYAK) accident in Chelyabinsk-40 - is not an elephant in the room, it is a zebra in the room. This is alpha, beta and gamma radiation from the black, gray and white stripes of the zebra, that is, from garbage. However, for readers who assume a UFO chase, my explanations will also be incomprehensible.
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Being hard to ignore is not synonymous with being correct. Axelrod replaces the elephant with a zebra. What explanation can be given for the use of geiger counters during rescue and recovery? All beasts wish to graze on new fodder for the mind.
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Hello.
Shouldn't we confuse UFO occupants with the Soviet police? If the Soviet police don't care about Russians who dodge trains, perhaps the same isn't true of these UFO occupants called extraterrestrials, who may have something to do with the evolution of Earth's technology and were present in Russia for that reason at the time? Even more so, should we be looking at an expeditionary group that wants to be, or should be, well-known?
I don't know if you've studied ufology much, but we sometimes come to believe that some UFO cases are actually interventions identical to those of the police following one or more crimes, or even one or more murders.
I think the Dyatlov group, which wanted to gain respect with this expedition and acquire a certain notoriety, should never have indulged in this kind of dishonest practice. There's actually no guarantee that this was the root of the problem and the incident that cost them their lives, but if we remove from this case all the paranormal or extraordinary causes that many are so fond of, it must be admitted that a purely Cartesian and simplistic cause, even if it's obscured by a lack of lucidity regarding an unknown phenomenon, holds up better than all the exaggerations!
The cause of the radioactivity coming from Mayak doesn't seem to satisfy you. It's true that when we talk about UFO intervention, because the presence of radioactivity is also linked in many cases to their appearances, this hypothesis seems quite reliable. This is, in fact, what I've thought since I learned about this case.
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The theory of extraterrestrial influence is actually very interesting.
In Levashov's examination, only beta decay was detected.
What is it? This is when an atom in the nucleus, which is overloaded with an extra neutron,
this neutron decays into a proton and an electron. Due to the different number of protons, the atom itself turns into another chemical element (the next one in the periodic table). The electron does not remain with the atom, having high energy, despite the forces of electrical attraction, and flies away several meters in the air.
Just as in semiconductors there is the concept of electron and hole conductivity, electron beta decay and positron beta decay are classified. It is believed that during decay, a positron (antielectron) and neutrino, or an electron and antineutrino, are separated. It is also believed that alpha decay affects a distance of 2-3 cm, beta decay has a range of 2-3 meters, gamma decay affects 2-3 km in the air. In the presence of an obstacle, this range is less.
But a neutrino flies NOT 2-3 meters during beta decay! It is an INCREDIBLY greater distance. I read a theory that a neutrino flies 100 light years. Here an interesting theory arises. Sirius is 9 light years from us. The nearest star Alpha Centauri in the southern sky is twice as close. These neutrino pulses can be sent from other civilizations that have much more progress in technology.
Here is where aliens can affect us, not in the way we imagine for our experience, or as described in science fiction novels, that they are like us and come out of iron doors in spacesuits. They can send out these streams of neutrinos (or antineutrinos), thereby causing the beta decay that we see in the tests.
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The closest star is Proxima Centauri. 4.5 light years away. A light year is 6 trillion miles distant. Do the math.
UFO is funny. Has advanced technology, comes to earth. Has parking lights on. Probably needs a bath too.
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You know, once upon a time, 100-200 years ago, there was a horse in front of the tram car, but now there are no horses. The tram moves without a horse. In the same way, advanced civilizations are not obliged to send astronauts in spacesuits to explore other civilizations that are lagging behind them in intelligence.
I found such a map in the English Wikipedia article.
This is a map of the total radioactive background (natural and technical).
It is clear that there are no nuclear power plants in the Himalayas. But we also see strong radiation in the USA, France, etc.
(https://i.ibb.co/LXf3WL3X/map-aes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bMnkZSkM)
In the same way, a form of consciousness on other planets could notice a change in the radioactive background in the Solar System (where we are) due to the atomic explosions in Japan and other places.
The difference between August 1945 and February 1959 is 13.5 years. For Sirius it is not enough (9+9=18), but it is enough for Alpha Centauri to notice a change in the background, its constant picture for several years, and in 4-5 years to send a response radiation. Dyatlov's group became victims of this radiation.
We do not know the details of this radiation, our science is not yet able to study it through devices and microscopes. It has only been established that the radiation of neutrinos due to beta decay covers a distance of 100 light years in the Universe.
We do not yet know the cause of beta decay. If it occurs under the influence of an external neutrino flow, which we do not notice when it passes through us. I assume that due to this effect, certain isotopes are capable of decaying, emitting their own neutrino or antineutrino, adding them to the neutrino flow, like the avalanche effect of the neutron flow during the chain reaction of uranium decay.
If Dyatlov's group had clothes contaminated with such radiation, then they could have been exposed to more of this external influence sent from other planets. Just as a person in black clothes gets hotter than in white clothes.
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I sense yet another revision to a book. Before revising, have a clear sense of scale and magnitude. The magnitude of direction and distance is immense as is the solar wind. The scale of earthly particle emmissions is vanishingly small. I think a wise author would smile and move on to more productive lines if reasoning. An unwise author swallows the bait, the hook, line and sinker.
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I can only express ideas at the level of assumptions.
Your objections seem tempting.
There are claims to Levashov's experiment that no spectrometer research was done there. But we have evidence that the range of such particles is not limited to Levashov's room.
Strontium-90 is used as a control sample for calibration by the spectrometer.
But such an isotope strontium-90 does not form in nature. It can only arise in significant quantities in a nuclear reactor. If there is a substance, then there is a reactor, and this is known 100 light years away. It is like a source of radio waves. It is clear that a tiger and a bear cannot be involved in this.
In order for another planet to affect the Earth, it is not necessary to affect the Earth itself. You can influence the Sun, and the Sun will influence the earth directly.
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For example, here is a star that is a billion times further than Sirius (9 billion light years), nevertheless this star is somehow noticed from Earth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MACS_J1149_Lensed_Star_1
In the same way, aliens observe us and see our radiation.
I think that an unusual emitter in the form of a nuclear reactor Chelyabinsk-40 is also noticed from a distance of 1-2 billion times closer, from Sirius or Alpha Centaurus. Recently I read that a nuclear reactor emits 95% of thermal energy (useful for us) and 4-5% of energy in the form of antineutrinos (which are also formed during the decay of atomic nuclei in the reactor), that is, energy that is useless to us, which fly around in space.
If the nuclear tests began in 1940, then after 18 years a resonant response signal could have been sent from an inhabited planet in Sirius' orbit.
ADD: The first nuclear test in the USSR was performedon August 29, 1949.
It could be noticed from Alpha Centauri
distance to Alpha Centauri 4.344 light years
round trip 8.688 = 8 years 250 days.
8 years = August 29, 1957 + 125 days (September-December) + 125 days (spring 1958) = May 5, 1958The first nuclear test in the USSR was conducted on August 29, 1949.
It could be seen from Alpha Centauri
distance to Alpha Centauri 4.344 light years
round trip 8.688 = 8 years 250 days.
8 years = August 29, 1957 + 125 days (September-December) + 125 days (spring 1958) = May 5, 1958
several monts for reply decision
https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov-ru
When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov * * we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed a source of heat ray or completely unknown to us energy acting selectively - the snow was not melted, the trees were not damaged. It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.
After all, when in February we came to the big cedar tree, near which the hikers tried to make a fire and carefully examined and compared everything, we were struck by the courage and stamina of the young people who fought for their lives and the lives of their comrades. Imagine a tree trunk 50-60 cm thick. Hikers took turns climbing this tree to break off branches for a fire (they made a fire). On the bark of the tree there were frozen (it’s scary to even say it!) their skin of their inner thighs and scraps of underwear. All this covered the cedar bark. During excavations in May, we found the corpses of Lyuda Dubinina and the others. They died first from terrible internal injuries, but they were not abandoned. They were carried away from the fire, carefully laid. Even the dead men themselves took care of the dead. This is how real people behave. We have something to take from the past, and how petty the behavior of other people now seems, who cannot even overcome ordinary difficulties.
But what about the astronauts of the fireballs? If they exist, then sooner or later they will manifest themselves, and circumstances will bring them to our civilization. I have no doubt about that.
L. I. Ivanov, lawyer Kustanay
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Thank you for your extensive comment.
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Just one little question.
A bout the cedar and those broken branches, it seem that I've read about that this tree had also with radioactivity? Truth or false?
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I don't see anything strange in the situation with broken branches.
This happens very often, also with the outer trees.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lz6y9LBH/sosna-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRHN2Prw)
(https://i.ibb.co/8DtrW347/sosna-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N6b98hny)
(https://i.ibb.co/1tDgjZ5D/sosna-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wF9kjyX9)
(https://i.ibb.co/yc6NWbSN/sosna-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jwvc5MQc)
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Just one little question.
A bout the cedar and those broken branches, it seem that I've read about that this tree had also with radioactivity? Truth or false?
Hi mja Mahé,
I don't recall anything mentioned about radioactivity and the ceder. From the orgional case files, the only mention of the radioactivity was from the readings from the Geiger counter at the end of the case.
Someone allegedly took a dosimeter to the slope but that's a different measuring device .
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Radiation, UFO aliens, mystery trees, here is an answer courtesy of a forum member's contribution.
Read the book online "Transforming Delusion into Clarity. A Guide to the Fundamental Practices of Tibetan Buddhism" - Rinpoche Yongey Mingyu
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What's this cedar on your photos? The original on the original place with now roads???
I don't see anything strange in the situation with broken branches.
This happens very often, also with the outer trees.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lz6y9LBH/sosna-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRHN2Prw)
(https://i.ibb.co/8DtrW347/sosna-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N6b98hny)
(https://i.ibb.co/1tDgjZ5D/sosna-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wF9kjyX9)
(https://i.ibb.co/yc6NWbSN/sosna-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jwvc5MQc)
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@mja Mahé
I think Axelrod just posted pictures of a random tree.
I don't know how much you have read but the orgional statements say that the branches were broken with reference to the remains of the fire , for example, the burnt branches belonged to the ceder. Also, they were lying on some of the foliage from those branches as an insulation from the snow.
Under the fresh snow from the night or day of the fire, hard melted snow was found around the fire. Basically, snow had melted and when the searchers came and removed the snow that had fallen or blown in over 3 weeks a hard layer was found underneath the fresh snow, this is how I understand it.
The mention of skin being found on the tree is only said many years after. The autopsy doesn't mention lots of skin missing from any of the bodies that would be seen . Given the lack of any real forensic investigation, I doubt that anyone looked that closely.
We have a fire, broken branches and insulation from the snow . It leans towards a rational effort to make a fire and keep contact from away the snow . Survival in my opinion.
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Kyshtym accident in 1957
One way or another, the nuclear and radiation accident in Kyshtym in 1957 had an influence on the research of the Dyatlov accident.
The severity of the Kyshtym accident can be compared with other nuclear accident in Chernobyl and Fukushima via the next hyperlink:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents_and_incidents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents_and_incidents)
The influence of the Kyshtym accident on the Dyatlov accident is obvious when taking into account that Yuri Kri had helped rescuing and cleaning the area after the Kyshtym explosion.
Contamination from this explosion may well have been present in his clothings and his clothes may well have contaminated to some limited extend the clothes of other group members.
This may explain why clothings from group members had been tested on radio-activity.
The testresult don't show worrying results, of course as far as these results are genuine....
Mining plutonium
Not so very far from Ivdel mining of plutonium took place.
Plutonium from a specific mine has a specific -unique - radiation pattern.
Mining of plutonium had been an absolute state secret at that time, and very probably still now.
Samples of contamination by plutonium will reveal the source and the mine of the plutonium that had caused the contamination in question: the outcome of this kind of test will very probably state secret.
Spy activity by U2 airplanes
During the end of the 50s of last century, U2 airplanes did spy activity above the area around Ivdel, until one U2 airplane had been shot down by USSR not very far from Ivdel and Kyshtym.
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Radioactive particles did not preclude the hikers from going to Ortoten.Radiation did not result in the suspension of logging or mining. Radiation did not displace the Mansi at Vizhay. Radiation did not cause the demise of the hikers, nor their equipment. It can not be proven whether any particle decay came from a lantern mantle, the work site at home, a nuclear accident, or anything else. This whole divergence does not address the central core of the mystery.
One school of thought places the group's last camp on 1079, the other puts them at or near the cedar. I opt for the 1079 location. Weather driven snow movement caused them the leave their tent, and later filled it. Weather driven conditions prevented them from keeping warm in the open air at the cedar. Weather drove them to the ravine where a snow collapse further injured the group. It was a matter of attrition ultimately caused by a misunderstanding of how bad things could get if the weather turned bad. It was a matter of over estimating one's ability to survive in an indifferent natural world.
The big question is why they left the tent. I believe it was weather driven snow that is the cause.
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Hello.
Thank you for your answers. Now I'm interested for to have photo of the tree where a member of the group has carved some Mansi symbols. This photo isn't at the first look on this website and it's difficult to find this one on the web!
Friendly.
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Are you certain who carved the tree? I think the DP9 had other priorities at the time. Good luck on your quest for truth.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Sj0vvd4/indigenous-mansi-krivonischenko-looks-at-mansi-markings-on-a-tree-the-markings-indicate-hunting-cond.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HSYggxf)
Are you certain who carved the tree? I think the DP9 had other priorities at the time. Good luck on your quest for truth.
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My understanding is that the hikers did not mark up any trees. I understand that the hikers knew these tree markings were made and read by Mansi. What they meant at the time, according to diary entries was unknown to them but interesting.
If your idea is that the DP9 took the time to skin the bark off a tree and paint it with arcane symbols painted with some concoction, you may not find much support for this idea.
If you instead believe that there was some meaningful message for the hikers like a warning or an invitation, nothing came out in the case files.
Before the group set out for Ortoten via Kholat Syakl (1079) the forester advised against it, not because of attack, but weather.
Group Diary 1.30.59
Mansi signs tell about animals they saw, resting stops and other things. It is particularly interesting to solve its meaning for the hikers as well as historians.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Sj0vvd4/indigenous-mansi-krivonischenko-looks-at-mansi-markings-on-a-tree-the-markings-indicate-hunting-cond.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HSYggxf)
Are you certain who carved the tree? I think the DP9 had other priorities at the time. Good luck on your quest for truth.
Many of the tribes did the same with tree's used as sign posts. They also used the chums( tents) or tent structures. Depending on how thick the forest was , it would signal the direction of the path. Some of the symbols denote the individual hunter or family, also some of the markings show where the traps for animals lye. On occasion they would leave other marks for when the hunter expected to return after so many days away from the last sign post ( tree). They also were signed where was safe to crose rivers in winter or a short passage in the "s"bends in a river. For example , drag the canoe across a hundred meters or paddle for 5 km. Sometimes they would break trees in the direction of the best path. The symbols on the tree aree the sign posts of their highway and a communication to other hunters.
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I see a mystical analogy in this situation:
There is a Russian fairy tale where Ivan stops in front of a stone on which is written:
(https://i.ibb.co/svdmZPgK/bilibin-stone.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
If you go to the left, you will lose your horse/deer!
If you go to the right (that is, to the pass) – you will lose your life!
You will go straight – you will live, but you will forget yourself!
We see the same thing here.
I will explain the last analogy in more detail.
If you go to the left, you will lose your horse/deer! (Karelin/Atmanaki's group did not take the train in Serov)
If you go to the right (that is, to the pass) – you will lose your life! (Igor Dyatlov group died)
You will go straight – you will live, but you will forget yourself! (Igor Fomenko forgot the route)
As for those who went straight (does not remember anything) and ended up in the USA, there are interesting memories of Maya Piskaryova on samlib.ru:
Oh, those elusive Rostovites! For a long time they did not give in to the search, as in that winter of 1959. First, documentary film director Eduard Anishchenko, himself a Rostov resident, turned to one of the tourist clubs in Rostov-on-Don during the filming of the film «Unfinished Route», and, as it turned out, successfully! He contacted one of the friends of the leader of a group of Rostov students from the Rostov Pedagogical Institute.
In general, this friend intrigued us completely. But the friend also named the head of the Rostov group and said that he now lives in the USA. And this is already half the battle. They began to look for Fomenko in the United States, but then there was a scandal with Snowden, and the Americans closed their rescuers.
Alina, the administrator of the secret.li forum, joined the search and found a mention of the name Fomenko on the website of Tver State University. A letter was sent to the university, they kindly answered me. And it became clear that this is the very Fomenko we are looking for. On behalf of all the researchers of the tragedy, I express my gratitude to Yuri Domansky from the Department of Literary Theory, who responded and told me the address of Igor Vladimirovich Fomenko. Now the letter has gone to America, and we hold our breath in anticipation.
[–] Where we planned to go to the ridge, I don’t remember. / I don’t remember his last name / I don’t remember exactly where we landed / I don’t remember the settlements. / Thank you. But I don't remember. I won't fantasize. / I don’t remember at all how and where they left the village.
[–] Please remember if you were going to go to OTORTEN?
[–] I don't remember anything about Otorten. And I can't remember the words either.
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It was a tourist hike that went wrong. Several other tourists hikes suffered at the same time. This is pre Dyatlov, in parallel and post Dyatlov.
If you go into cold harsh conditions, thing are amplified as compared to staying at home. It just makes the tipping point more drastic.
Everything points to the fact that they had to leave the tent .
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I posted Bilibin's picture because it is very similar to photo of Yuri Kri.
https://www.instagram.com/hard_life2316/p/DFPfOTvOtqg/
Mansi sign denotes the fillowing text:
Direction to the south: "If you go left, you'll lose your horse,
Direction to the north: if you go right, you'll lose your life,
direction to the west, if you go straight, you'll live, but you'll forget yourself"
(https://i.ibb.co/prJZcY4W/3puti.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Направление на юг: «Налево пойдёшь — коня потеряешь,
Направление на север: направо пойдёшь — жизнь потеряешь,
направление прямо на запад: прямо пойдёшь — жив будешь, да себя позабудешь»
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I posted Bilibin's picture because it is very similar to photo of Yuri Kri.
https://www.instagram.com/hard_life2316/p/DFPfOTvOtqg/
Mansi sign denotes the fillowing text:
Direction to the south: "If you go left, you'll lose your horse,
Direction to the north: if you go right, you'll lose your life,
direction to the west, if you go straight, you'll live, but you'll forget yourself"
(https://i.ibb.co/prJZcY4W/3puti.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Направление на юг: «Налево пойдёшь — коня потеряешь,
Направление на север: направо пойдёшь — жизнь потеряешь,
направление прямо на запад: прямо пойдёшь — жив будешь, да себя позабудешь»
Axelrod
I have to ask how you conclude this
Direction to the south: "If you go left, you'll lose your horse,
Direction to the north: if you go right, you'll lose your life,
direction to the west, if you go straight, you'll live, but you'll forget yourself"
What does this mean?
The image you posted was this year.
"The image appears to be a digital artwork depicting a stylized skull wearing a helmet, with several symbolic objects surrounding it. The artwork is by Pavel Delaydelo, posted on Instagram on January 25, 2025. "
In all respect Axelrod, you just make the water more muddy and add nothing.
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I was busy today with transcript of Valentin Degteriov.
It is posted here.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1768.0
(Proto if Yuri Kriin front of tree of signs is also dusucessed there. Also comment from Teddy...Therefore I started work with that topic...)
I think how to explain my thouthts about tale with Ivan. I do it later, and in appropriate ptopic.
Here this importatnt research will be innoticeable.
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Well , for what's is worth.
Herses a link to the tree bark sign posts. How qualified it is I don't know but it makes sense.
If we travel to other countries with different means of communication, then of course it seems mysterious..I have to praise big bad Russia on this, the Soviet Union or whatever we call it. The Soviet Union wasn't trying to convert all these tribes into Christianity or communism, they left them alone , that is the manti , khanty and all the rest of the tribes
The sign posts on the tress are exactly that , communication.
It's an interesting read, https://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol3/soros4.htm#:~:text=On%20the%20Shtshutshye%20River%20near,Photo.
Please indulge and have a read. I don't think it's made up and it has logic.
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I have to praise big bad Russia on this, the Soviet Union or whatever we call it. The Soviet Union wasn't trying to convert all these tribes into Christianity or communism, they left them alone
In 1979, at the suggestion of E. I. Rombandeyeva, signs for denoting long vowels were included in the Mansi alphabet (by adding a macron). Before that, in 1978, in the publication of V. I. Lenin's brochure "The Tasks of Youth Unions", the stress mark was used to denote long vowels.
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I have to praise big bad Russia on this, the Soviet Union or whatever we call it. The Soviet Union wasn't trying to convert all these tribes into Christianity or communism, they left them alone
In 1979, at the suggestion of E. I. Rombandeyeva, signs for denoting long vowels were included in the Mansi alphabet (by adding a macron). Before that, in 1978, in the publication of V. I. Lenin's brochure "The Tasks of Youth Unions", the stress mark was used to denote long vowels.
Yes, you cite from Wikipedia?.
The reference I gave is about the tree signs and meaning of them . How and why they were used. It may have been mysterious to the Dyatlov group but not mysterious to the Mansi . The photo of the chum could be a sign post for a trail , interestingly this signage is mentioned in the link I supplied and could be linked to the ceder. Food for thought.
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In order to discuss here the signs on the trees of the Mansi, it is necessary to create a topic with a separate name. People who are afraid or do not understand the topic of radiation, rarely will get into this topic to find here the signs of the Mansi.
As for the physics of radiation itself, it seems to me that the author of the topic understands it as some kind of incomprehensible mystical phenomenon. Other people can repeat what they learned at school or college.
It seems to me that the topic of nuclear physics is as murky a topic as the Dyatlov Pass.
People do not understand this topic as a whole conception.
I studied at the Physics and Technology Institute in Moscow, but we studied the topic of nuclear physics quickly and superficially, like, studying astronomy at school, for example. This is a very specialized topic. There are many other relevant topics in physics.
As for beta radioactivity, I used to think that this type of radiation is associated with the emission of an electron. Recently I noticed that there is also a neutrino or anti-neutrino in the decay equation. Now I wonder which of these components is more important.
Now I am at an age to not only remember, but also to rethink theories. Recently I thought that beta decay may not occur by itself - as we were taught. Maybe it can be provoked by a stream of neutrinos that comes from the Sun and other stars and that constantly occurs around us, but the impact of which is not yet studied in science.
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I find curious two things. First, radiation was found on the clothing of the hikers. Secondly, radiation detection equipment was brought to the scene of the tragedy. I find it hard to believe that rescuers in the dead of winter had any practical need for Geiger counters to effect a rescue. I find it significant that no additional investigation was brought into evidence ascertaining the source of the radioactive contamination.
Since there was no appreciable radiation detected in snow, tree, rock or flesh anywhere else at that time, I must conclude that the contamination was inadvertent, coming from the student's work place. Was the radioactive material distributed on garments and subsequently detected in order to support a conspiracy to defect theory? Nonsense on stilts!
I can not support conspiracy. I think that conservation of State property, was why a Geiger counter was there at the time. A particularly lousy time for prospecting, I would add.
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I find curious two things. First, radiation was found on the clothing of the hikers. Secondly, radiation detection equipment was brought to the scene of the tragedy. I find it hard to believe that rescuers in the dead of winter had any practical need for Geiger counters to effect a rescue. I find it significant that no additional investigation was brought into evidence ascertaining the source of the radioactive contamination.
Since there was no appreciable radiation detected in snow, tree, rock or flesh anywhere else at that time, I must conclude that the contamination was inadvertent, coming from the student's work place. Was the radioactive material distributed on garments and subsequently detected in order to support a conspiracy to defect theory? Nonsense on stilts!
I can not support conspiracy. I think that conservation of State property, was why a Geiger counter was there at the time. A particularly lousy time for prospecting, I would add.
As I understand it , a dosimeter was reported as being taken to the area , I honestly can't remember if that's in the case files or a later interview..( I'm sure it says something about clicking noises but that's not how a dosimeter works) the Geiger counter is late in the investigation, its after the ravine 4 are found and allegedly done because the clothes were seen to be glowing. As I understand it it , radiation doesn't glow
There may be other explanations for clothes glowing . For example there was some kind of forensic method for looking for blood .
Luminol test below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol#:~:text=In%201937%2C%20German%20forensic%20scientist,of%20blood%20at%20crime%20scenes.
I think what must be observed, in tandem with the state of play, between the west and east in a cold war context is the political movements on nuclear weapons.
The Soviet Union was winning the race on distance on rockets and missiles. The r-5 m rocket was the first with a nuclear war head .in October 1958, the west( UK, USA) were trying to ban the testing of rockets/ missiles , this was agreed In principal with the Soviet Union at the time.
However, the Soviet Union may have been doing tests with the rockets. The Soviet Union was supposed to have agreed to this ban on testing. This includes , air bombs, planes , etc etc.
The Dyatlov pass incident is right in the middle of this arms race. Rockets are mentioned along with lights in the sky .
Could the Dyatlov pass have been used as red herring to the west? Radiation and all?..
Was the natural death of tourists used as a question mark to the west ?.
There is a lot going on in the Kremlin at this point in history, the Soviet Union moved nuclear capable missiles it to east Germany in 1959... The west side as behind and information was all over the place.
The distance of the middles was important, also the accuracy.
It was a time of top secrecy, I do wonder if the innocent deaths of the Dyatlov hikers were a pawn in a bigger picture of international . Just a convenient affair to confuse the west..
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Excellent points made regarding the state of affairs in 1959. What concerns me is that radiation in any way, shape or form that originated within the Soviet Union is an unlikely piece to play in internationa chess. It implies incompetence at some level. If, on the other hand, the hikers were affected by foreign contamination, that would be different and provocative. As far as I know, the radioactive exposures were not mined for their propaganda value.
Of course we have the blurry photo of the light trails and we have the evidence of radiation on some, not all articles of clothing and zinc lined coffins. Personally, I do not think a radioactive sample drove the hikers from tent to the hereafter. The testing equipment may just have been handy at the time, nothing more. It may have just been a coincidence.
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Agree, I don't think the radio active clothing says much about anything and it may have happened in transit.
What I was trying to suggest is that the Dyatlov file is full of sightings of objects in the sky on various dates . These case files if seen by the public in 1959 could have been released/leaked to the west. It is the statements of these missile flights that could perhaps pin point the flights and testing locations of these missiles . The Soviet Union would not want that information going to the west as it may inform the west where to look for the secret launch facilities of which there were 4 I think and also the designated target zone.( Accuracy of these missiles was also secret)
The light phenomena in the sky were in the statements which includes important information like, the time of day , along with the rough location of the observer's. From this information, I'm pretty sure that the western secret services could estimate the launch site and test ranges and then send the U2 spy plane over head or infiltrate the secret facilities with spys.
These test rockets and missiles were being developed as defence missiles ( interception) and ICBMs . The Soviet Union wanted these locations secret , they were built in secret.
The information in the case files is of national security at the time of 1959 . I wouldn't be surprised if this is why there was secrecy around the Dyatlov pass and it was locked away in some cupboard. Too much loose information on real events with an individual Investigator adding his own speculation of radiation and rockets ....the very thing that was supposed to be a state secret .
The hikers died by accident and bad luck, the investigation accidentally revealed unwanted state secrets (the potential location of test missile launch sites)and that was most likely why it was classified at the time. It is the very reason as to why it was "classified" that has spawned all the theories that something mysterious happened. To understand why the case was classified may help us to narrow down the cause of the incident?.
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Ziljoe, the suppression of information regarding lights in the sky certainly reinforces the secrecy surrounding the case, the alleged exclusion zone in the mountains, and the State's attempt to take a low key approach to the funerals. If the alternate routes, such as the Blinov party took also necame restricted, that would certainly reinforce the missiles making lights in the sky. Too, although the exposure was poor, maybe that light trail photo was related to a missile. I am doubtful since it occupied a large percentage of the frame. I think a successful laumch would produce a shaky streak on film, while a detonation would be much bigger. The chance that it would be caught is such a random manner, argues against it.
Yes, I think this thread about radioactivity may suffice to rule out it as a cause for leaving the tent.
Catabatic winds pushing snow drifts or slips onto an exposed broadside of a stitched together canvas tent seems more reasonable. ( perhaps a wolverine needed to get out of the weather??)
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Glenn ,I still have a soft spot for the wolverine theory. However , I shall leave that thought there.
As always it's difficult to backward engineer when certain bits of the myths surrounding the case came to be.
I don't think a missile or rocket accident happened at 1079 or anywhere near the eye witnesses, I also don't think the photos are of anything to let wise. The only photo out of that grouping that gets my attention are the two eagle photos as they match up and I keep seeing a moose antler....
Back to the bit about radio activity, it could be to do with testing for fallout from the nuclear testing from these distant launch sites .
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Look, I graduated from the Physics and Technology Institute in Moscow and studied computational mathematics and such.
If this doesn't mean anything to you, imagine that I graduated from MIT.
As for the Dyatlov Pass incident, in which my relative was involved, I want to state that this incident is not some simple incident,
or deliberately mystified.
This is not Loch Ness, where there are discussions after a log floated in 1933, which was mistaken for a monster,
The Dyatlov Pass incident is really strange, although GlennM constantly tries to refute it.
I don't know if I can pronounce the terms correctly, but when plotting graphs on the screen, there is an interpolation of functions by several points.
There are all sorts of shooting methods and other things. to guess the nature of this function, which gives such intermediate points.
This function is very mysterious for the graph.
And here you start using "leaps of faith", that it could be an avalanche, wolverine. other options.
Wolverine is not an interpolation for unknown events between February 1 and March 1, 1959.
If wolverine spoiled something, then this thing will not stop stinking after a month. Wolverine is not suitable for interpolation here. This is just a funny example.
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Look, I graduated from the Physics and Technology Institute in Moscow and studied computational mathematics and such.
Well done , good on you.
If this doesn't mean anything to you, imagine that I graduated from MIT.
Correct, your first statement means nothing to me ( might mean something to someone else). I am now imagining that you graduated from MIT..........
As for the Dyatlov Pass incident, in which my relative was involved, I want to state that this incident is not some simple incident,
or deliberately mystified.
If it is not some simple incident, then what is it? Unfortunately, it has been deliberately mystified my numerous media outlets and individuals , daily...
This is not Loch Ness, where there are discussions after a log floated in 1933, which was mistaken for a monster,
The loch Ness monster was first reported to have been seen by st Columbia in the 6th century where he used the cross to stop the beast from attacking. I have a relative involved in sightings of the loch Ness monster. I want to state I think it is a simple incident.
The Dyatlov Pass incident is really strange, although GlennM constantly tries to refute it.
I think GlennM is being factual. What is really strange about the Dyatlov pass?
I don't know if I can pronounce the terms correctly, but when plotting graphs on the screen, there is an interpolation of functions by several points.
There are all sorts of shooting methods and other things. to guess the nature of this function, which gives such intermediate points.
This function is very mysterious for the graph.
I would suspect it user error or incorrect data being entered.
And here you start using "leaps of faith", that it could be an avalanche, wolverine. other options.
Wolverine is not an interpolation for unknown events between February 1 and March 1, 1959.
Out of all the theories, an avalanche is the smallest "leap of faith" put forward. As for the wolverine, if it played a role , it was only on the 1st of February. I believe some are saying this year's winter trip raised the possibility of an avalanche.
If wolverine spoiled something, then this thing will not stop stinking after a month. Wolverine is not suitable for interpolation here. This is just a funny example.
I have a lot of respect for the wolverine theory by Igor B. His work and how he communicates is extremely clear and easy to navigate . Igor B is a useful resource and a logical thinker .
Igor B , link below , you do not need to agree with the the wolverine theory.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=3d15ddc6c5a1e2a481c741d1ec2f325a&showtopic=5133&st=1080&p=69286&#entry69286
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Good morning.
Sorry, I've had problems with my Dyatlov Pass Forum password.
I come back about the symbol on the tree. I think that these are relative with amerindians symbols. I know that the genetic migration up to United States was through the Bering strait and and it's for this reason that I do this relation between Mansis and native american peoples.
In a first time I want to explain the symbol on the tree relative with the arrow of the native americans : protection.
Do you think also like me that's for this reason that Yuri Yudin gave up the group after had examine these symbols???
Here is a screenshot of some native american symbols. My choice is in a first time for the arrow and you'll can see some similar and relative symbols with this one of the tree but it seem really that Yuri Yudin has had a real protection and the story of the Dyatlov Pass learn to you that It was not the fact for the other members of the group!
(https://i.ibb.co/fztvKkW1/Native-american-symbols.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VcDmhgGj)
Source of the image : https://xn--kateyaartamrindien-lwb.com/fr/blog/les-symboles-amerindiens-n21 (https://xn--kateyaartamrindien-lwb.com/fr/blog/les-symboles-amerindiens-n21)
Friendly.
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The symbols on the trees in the photos are representations of the hunt, the strokes above are the number of hunters and the strokes below are the number of dogs involved.
The symbols in-between the upper and lower strokes are the family names ( they can be seen on the Mansi witnesses statements)of the hunters involved , the scores to the sides of the shaved bark depict the animal killed in the hunt .
In Zina's diary where she draws these symbols , she has drawn what some people have alleged to be a club or an axe. It is actually the symbol for an elk . There is no argument about that or what these signs mean.
However , Zinas picture does look like it's been copied...?
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Mansi Valery Anyamov in a video recording talks us about three people and three dogs.
But I doubt that this interpretation is correct. After 60 years, you can come up with anything as an explanation.
The entry in the diary helps to compare the photos with the dates.
January 28 - Yudin left.
January 29 - they walked a short distance, first along the Lozva River, then along the Auspia River.
I can assume that the 3 lines mean these rivers with water.
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I don't see this exact date October 5 on the photo of trees. It is present only in her diary.
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In this photo it shows 1958 and a possible 5 underneath..
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-25.jpg
It also shows 3 scores above the family name of Anyamov. The three scores are 3 hunters , then family name ( Anyamov), then 3 dogs. The scores around the edges is the animal caught or hunted.
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Anyamov uses the family name ( full name Anyamov Andrey Aleekseevich ) to sign his statement in the case files on three pages, I'm not sure what name the other black mark is on the two pages but it seems to be a Mansi name.. perhaps this is the translators name in Mansi sign also?
Case files 230-233
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-230.jpg
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-case-files-230-back.jpg
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Zinas diary picture of the Mansi signs and 1958 has the triple A, I'm not sure if she knows the name or has got the basic knowledge of Mansi signs because I don't know why she has rows of the letter A with other letters. A process of elimination? However , she has written the Mansi Anyamoy name and we know that the axe looking drawing means an elk .
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zina-Kolmogorova-diary-12.jpg
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Zina has drawn the Mansi signs from the trees , we know what's being represented is not mystical and we have been told by the Mansi themselves. , It is basically, hunter numbers, family name of hunters , number of dogs used and the animal they caught, elk , wolverine, bear etc.
The mystery is now, why do we have two drawings of the elk signd the same by two different tourists? Could two people draw the same thing at different times and places from different signs that look extremely similar to each other. Perhaps one was told what to draw and the other drew it freehand from what was Infront of her.
Or was everyone copying each others homework before they presented their hiking report to pass the certificates to the UPi?
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Axelrod, I think you are telling the forum that Mansi signs do not have a single purpose. Instead, they are similar to traffic signs, except they convey more information. They can be directional educational and perhaps mystical.
You suggest that Mansi signs may be sophisticated enough to introduce choices in the symbols. If this is true and reliable, I commend your scholarship.
The DP9 were intrigued by the Mansi characters, as shown in diaries. I have yet to read anyone who posts an interpretation of symbols on a blazed tree which translate as, " don't go there" This would be cautionary for hikers, if and only if they understood the signs.
Finally, if the signs were so important, I think Forester Rempel would have instructed Igor during their meeting. Igor would be irresponsible to ignore the warnings. As it turned out, the hike, if not irresponsible was unarguably unfortunate.
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I prefer the idea that the 3 lines denotes a road from east to west, as a person moves along the Auspia River.
The sign to the left of this road indicates someone's hunting territory or the presence of some animal.
There is no sign to the right of the road, because it is cold in the north, there are no animals, it is not a hunting area and certainly not some kind of property. Similar territory in the north of Europe called as Lapland, literally empty land.
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It's all here.
'In the evening, after a hearty dinner, during which we finished almost a bucket of elk meat bought from the Mansi, we sit for a long time by the "potbelly stove" and talk with Alexander Prokopyevich. We settled around him on the skins laid on the floor, and he sat on a block and loaded cartridges. We asked the owner about the signs that we encountered in the taiga on the trees. When a Mansi hunter kills an animal, he goes out on the trail and makes a notch on a tree in a conspicuous place in joy and in memory of his success. First, he-carves out the figure of the animal. Animals have their own conventional notches (see Fig. 6). Notches are made above the figure of the animal. Notches are also made under the figure of the animal, The upper notches indicate the number of hunters participating in the hunt. The lower notches indicate the number of dogs, in the middle of the notch. the Mansi puts their family sign, katpos (see Fig. 7). Sometimes there are several notches at the top of the notch, but only one family sign. This means that the father and his sons were hunting. Until they start their own family, the sons put their father's katpos. The katpos is usually first cut out with an axe and then blackened with coal. There are many such monuments to successful hunting in the taiga.'
In fact , Karelins sports report reads almost like the Dyatlov diaries , missing the train, staying at a school , visiting museums , running out of time,trying a new stove designed by the engineer , holes in the tent from sparks, sewing the tent and socks and boot covers, the explanation of the duty officers, hot and cold parts of the tent that hikers thought too hot , spare skis, how the group reported that sending tourists ahead to make a path and the rest follow taking turns, the set up of a tent and the flooring , it's all in the report. It's like the Dyatlov group with out the sad ending???
I never read it in detail before but it's quite uncanny. Fig 6 and fig 7 show the same wood sign as Zinas( it represents an elk) and the same family names on the trees and as in the diary ,and the statement signed in Mansi .
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This is fig 6.
https://www.tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=28951&page=47
A bear , elk and wolverine are depicted in the diagram by Mansi . This is what the tree signs are supposed to communicate.
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Sorry , and the family names with lines from different groups and families that lived by hunting.
This is just a small group of names but is evidenced in the 1959 hike report which matches the description as to what the Karelin group were told when they stayed with the Mansi in February 1959.
For English readers the writing says this if my translation is correct.
Fig. 7. Catpos puc.
Maxian family signs
https://www.tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=28951&page=48
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Radio Activity revisited
If I remember well, one book descibes the next scenario:
- the Dyatlov group had for most group members an unknown encounter at the tent site with two or three foreign spies for the transfer of radio-active samples,
- the Dyatlov group had been driven by the armed spies from the tent site to the ravine area at the beginning of the night.
- The Dyatlov group did not survive the cold night
- The two/three spies vanished in oblivion in history.
Radio-active samples had been state confidential at that time, due to its unique radiation pattern that revealed the place of mining.
In theory the spies might have entered the tent site in the track made by the group and returned to Vizhay in the same track. In this manner these spies did not leave many traces to and from the tent site.
The spies may have survived the cold night in the tent.
Against this theory:
- No returning footprints visible from the ravine to the tentsite.
- These spies should have travel allowances one way or another.
Anyway, this book is a classic in my opinion, in the sense that nearly all investigators disagree with the theory, but one has to know this theory in order to exploring the unknown parts of this case.
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Radio Activity revisited
If I remember well, one book descibes the next scenario:
- the Dyatlov group had for most group members an unknown encounter at the tent site with two or three foreign spies for the transfer of radio-active samples,
- the Dyatlov group had been driven by the armed spies from the tent site to the ravine area at the beginning of the night.
- The Dyatlov group did not survive the cold night
- The two/three spies vanished in oblivion in history.
Radio-active samples had been state confidential at that time, due to its unique radiation pattern that revealed the place of mining.
In theory the spies might have entered the tent site in the track made by the group and returned to Vizhay in the same track. In this manner these spies did not leave many traces to and from the tent site.
The spies may have survived the cold night in the tent.
Against this theory:
- No returning footprints visible from the ravine to the tentsite.
- These spies should have travel allowances one way or another.
Anyway, this book is a classic in my opinion, in the sense that nearly all investigators disagree with the theory, but one has to know this theory in order to exploring the unknown parts of this case.
That's Rakitin's book, isn't it? About the "controlled delivery" of radiologically contaminated items?
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It would seem to me that the spread of radioactive particles should have affected all of them given their physical closeness and the closeness of their belongings.