Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hunter on August 27, 2025, 12:15:14 PM
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Forum Members,
This topic is not really brand new. It is what I split off from the most recent discussion under "Book 1079," which had wandered away from Book 1079 and needed its own channel.
This topic now begins with Hunter's and Ziljoe's messages you see below.
Amashilu
moderator
Ziljoe
A fuel tablet helps but if wood is dry then the work is mostly done. I would suspect all the hikers were skilled in how to light a fire.
Unfortunately, not all of them. I came across a report where tourists stumbled upon another group that was trying to make a fire out of raw wood.
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Ziljoe
A fuel tablet helps but if wood is dry then the work is mostly done. I would suspect all the hikers were skilled in how to light a fire.
Unfortunately, not all of them. I came across a report where tourists stumbled upon another group that was trying to make a fire out of raw wood.
That is a concern. It's quite important.
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Ziljoe,
Sometimes the experience of tourists from the Dyatlov group is exaggerated. There is a website that lists the number of hikes of each member of the group. It is not that big.
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Ziljoe,
Sometimes the experience of tourists from the Dyatlov group is exaggerated. There is a website that lists the number of hikes of each member of the group. It is not that big.
Yes, there's a list on the main page of the dyatlov pass site. . I would have thought lighting a fire would be one of the basic skills first taught to anyone going in to the wilds. Especially if they didn't have any other fuel source. I would also suspect they had more small camps and daily skiing trips that were never recorded. I could be wrong . But it's such a basic knowledge set to learn.
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Yes I think the experience possibly being overrated should not be ruled out in this case. They may have all hiked but had they ever run into a real emergency? Not saying this contributed or didn't. Unfortunately it adds to a long line of possibilities that can't be ruled out without more evidence.
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Yes I think the experience possibly being overrated should not be ruled out in this case. They may have all hiked but had they ever run into a real emergency? Not saying this contributed or didn't. Unfortunately it adds to a long line of possibilities that can't be ruled out without more evidence.
Well I am afraid that what you see is what you've got, we are all in the same boat. Reading everything that this site/group has to offer will give you a better understanding of the series of events that leads upto the disaster. You just need an inquisitive open mind and some parts will fall into place "some parts". To answer your first question though, I surmise they were all experienced hikers given their ages ,quite remarkable actually. You will find things in the rabbit hole.
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Ziljoe
I'm talking about other groups. Plus, it's one thing to light a fire, another thing to choose the right wood so that it smokes less and doesn't give off shooting sparks.
Falcon73
They were not trained in emergency response. At that time, such courses were only for the military, and not for everyone.
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Ziljoe
I'm talking about other groups. Plus, it's one thing to light a fire, another thing to choose the right wood so that it smokes less and doesn't give off shooting sparks.
Cedar and pine are known to spark, I have used them in my own Wood Stove in a tent . The flue or pipe allows for the worst to be burnt off and the stove obviously contains any harm.
In winter and cold outside conditions, sparks are of little concern. The odd ember might float down and singe the tent canvas but this would be more of a concern during warmer times of the year.
They obviously had open fires as well, again this would be of little concern although a jacket was burnt we don't have any details how this came to be.
I would think there would be little concern as to what type of wood they chose to burn , only that it was dry or dead wood. Pine and cedar would have the advantage of the resin and perhaps suitable birch was used.
The smoke made should travel along the pipe with correct ventilation and draw .
Obviously in a house or during summer outside, these variables might have more serious consequences, but in the cold conditions, I would suspect that they would use the best of what was available.
From my own experience, I have suffered no problems with sparks or smoke burning all sorts of wood. The biggest negative to winter camping is the speed at which the wood burns which inturn means you have to keep adding fuel. Birch and hardwoods give a longer burn ( as you probably know) but if you are out in the woods you can't select the perfect tree every time. The high heat of resin can cause the stoves to warp and glow red but that is just the nature of the game. It is easy to make a new one when needed.
Long-term, in a homemade stove is not ideal but short term I don't think it would be a problem
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Ziljoe
Unfortunately, I use an online translator. So there may be misunderstandings.
According to reports, the stoves were simple in design back then, and sparks burned through tents. And using spruce trees in an open fire was also dangerous. There are reports where sparks from such a fire almost destroyed a sleeping bag.
And in Dyatlov's campaign, sparks caused damage to warm outerwear. They are called telogreikas, another name is vatnik or fufaika.
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Ziljoe
Unfortunately, I use an online translator. So there may be misunderstandings.
According to reports, the stoves were simple in design back then, and sparks burned through tents. And using spruce trees in an open fire was also dangerous. There are reports where sparks from such a fire almost destroyed a sleeping bag.
And in Dyatlov's campaign, sparks caused damage to warm outerwear. They are called telogreikas, another name is vatnik or fufaika.
Thank you Hunter. Perhaps translator will cause misunderstandings .
Yes, I mention the burnt clothes of the dyatlov group . The one in the photo of the burnt jacket.
Yes, all stoves are simple in design , new and old . It is a metal box with a pipe .
Yes, one other group of tourists burnt their tent at the same time as the dyatlov group and had to dig snow dens to get back home.
As someone who has camped with open fires and a stove inside a tent , I would be comfortable with cedar in my stove.
All types of wood and sparks have the potential to spread a fire . I would say that the distance of the fire from clothing or tent is the most important factor .
It is a risk that I would take in winter. In summer I would be more concerned of starting a wild fire from sparks
In the UK, we can use a holiday campsite that is full of tents and use a wood stove. No one asks about the wood used in the stove. Sparks won't destroy a sleeping bag , a fire will , some modern sleeping bags have flammable insulation.
Sparks from an open fireplace in a house is a concern.
The negatives of cedar and pine trees is that they burn quicker than hard wood , whatever wood is dry is the best wood.
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Ziljoe
The main idea is conveyed. The details can be clarified. As for the design of the stoves - then, yes, the stoves were simple, later stoves with spark arresters appeared. If you are interested, I can find diagrams and drawings. In general, it is quite interesting to study the experience of tourists of those years.
In the reports I came across a sleeping bag that had actually been gutted to remove the decay. Back then, sleeping bags for the cold season were made with cotton wool or down. Cotton wool was more affordable.
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They were not trained in emergency response. At that time, such courses were only for the military, and not for everyone.
Hunter, I am curious, how do you know that they were not trained in emergency response? They were all at least Level II in mountaineering and surely that would include some emergency response training?
And can you define what you mean by emergency response? Many of the apparent actions around the cedar would indicate otherwise.
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amashilu
They were tourists. Judging by the trips they took, they were hiking, skiing and water (rafting). They were not involved in mountaineering. This is a separate area and separate training with experience.
There were no emergency response (survival) courses available to civilians back then. Not even all military personnel were trained in this. Nor were pilots. For example, Soviet cosmonauts were trained in emergency response after Leonov and Belyayev landed in the wrong place and were searched for for a long time.
Askindzi said in one of his interviews that no one taught tourists how to act in emergency situations. Everything was developed on their own, independently. There was no centralized training at that time.
I have books on tourism from those years, published in the USSR. There are no sections on actions in emergency situations.
The actions around the cedar and in the ravine where the last four were found show that there were attempts to organize survival, but they were not thought out, they were chaotic, at the level of instincts.
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If, as you say, emergency response training was limited to the military, Zolotaryev had been in the military for years. He could well have directed the others at such things as walking down the slope in a line to help one another, digging a den, taking clothes from the dead to keep themselves warm, and whatever else he could do. I think there is evidence all around the cedar of organized, goal-oriented, survival techniques, put into action.
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amashilu
Military, but not all. And survival training (at least the literature I got) was designed for pilots, and Zolotarev was a groundman. One hundred percent - there were no survival courses for civilians back then.
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Ziljoe
The main idea is conveyed. The details can be clarified. As for the design of the stoves - then, yes, the stoves were simple, later stoves with spark arresters appeared. If you are interested, I can find diagrams and drawings. In general, it is quite interesting to study the experience of tourists of those years.
In the reports I came across a sleeping bag that had actually been gutted to remove the decay. Back then, sleeping bags for the cold season were made with cotton wool or down. Cotton wool was more affordable.
I have experience of wood burning stoves . I wood love to see old diagrams and drawings of the old stoves.
Yes, I am aware of how sleeping bags are made.
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So they were going for their level 3, but none of them had it already, but they were all going to get it by doing a level 3 hike?
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So they were going for their level 3, but none of them had it already, but they were all going to get it by doing a level 3 hike?
Some had been on Level III hikes before, some had not. You can see a detailed summary of each one's experience on this page:
https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks?lid=1&flp=1#doroshenko
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amashilu
Military, but not all. And survival training (at least the literature I got) was designed for pilots, and Zolotarev was a groundman. One hundred percent - there were no survival courses for civilians back then.
I think there has been a misunderstanding as to what people were asking regarding emergency.
I have never heard of emergency response training , other than professional in their various specialities and job roles.
I think the question being posed meant , would their ( the hikers )experience not have given them some knowledge to survive in the conditions they found themselves in?
I will answer that myself , yes. It does not need to be a special training.
They experienced, bear attacks, being shot , a snake bite, cold weather, rafting , making fires ( home and in the wild) , using saws, axe's , sewing , first aid , good wood vs bad wood, fire pits, insulation off the ground , some sort of mountaineering, foot management, cooking , rafting , making rafts etc.
The other groups adapted their burnt tent and dug dens etc.
Special survival training, probably not , unless from locals and hunters . We don't do survival courses to this day, just basic knowledge on how to survive, it is up to the individual to find out more.
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I would be fairly confident in saying that all the hikers could light a fire if this is what the present discussion is all about.
An overall fact remains that Igor ( and Dubinina believe it or not ) were the leaders of the group and like it or not they had the last word. Unfortunately they had the last word. Somewhere that word was flawed, we need to know what that word was.
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Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.
ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.
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Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.
ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.
Hunter
We too have the saying "demand creates supply" . There is nothing I disagree with that you say. I don't know what you are trying to say in your comments when we all agree.
The hikers had experience , possibly not for every eventually but enough .
From your post I assume your argument is the hikers died through lack of experience in the situation they found themselves. ?
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Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.
ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.
You are correct Hunter. People in the West have known these things for a long long time. Russians under Communism is a doctrine of command and very structured, whilst under our structure we are free thinking and adaptable to change. I think this is what you mean and which doctrine wins we will see. However I dont think this applied to our hikers who had already had sufficient training for all such "emergencies" if that is what you are calling the scenario. However mother nature sometimes alters the playing field in a manner that is outside the realms of the normal thinking.
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Ziljoe, ahabmyth
Perhaps Google does a poor job of translating the text. The specifics of the interlocutor's language. I mean that no one prepared the Dyatlovites psychologically to act in such situations. For example, at my job, if I have to act in a stressful situation (when there is pressure from a big boss, time pressure), then my work is far from ideal. Yes, I will do it, but then, sitting in a calm environment, I understand that I would have done it differently if there had been no pressure on me, and as a result, perhaps, I would have even spent less time. Many survival courses pay a lot of attention to the psychological attitude and psychological preparation of a person. That is, to make sure that a person in a stressful situation does not fall into a stupor and does not wring his hands, but acts competently, perhaps even on "automatic" (reflexes).
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Ziljoe, ahabmyth
Perhaps Google does a poor job of translating the text. The specifics of the interlocutor's language. I mean that no one prepared the Dyatlovites psychologically to act in such situations. For example, at my job, if I have to act in a stressful situation (when there is pressure from a big boss, time pressure), then my work is far from ideal. Yes, I will do it, but then, sitting in a calm environment, I understand that I would have done it differently if there had been no pressure on me, and as a result, perhaps, I would have even spent less time. Many survival courses pay a lot of attention to the psychological attitude and psychological preparation of a person. That is, to make sure that a person in a stressful situation does not fall into a stupor and does not wring his hands, but acts competently, perhaps even on "automatic" (reflexes).
Hunter
It would be easier for us if you explained what you thought happened to the tourists.
If your thought is they encountered bad weather and their deaths were caused by lack of experience, then please just say so.
We know that there were other different groups of hikers in the area in 1959 , we also know other hikes happened before 1959 and after 1959. Various accidents happened on those hikes too.
We know that other wood stoves existed , that had fire arrestors at that same time and sometimes sparks got through and burnt holes in tents. They were about 3kg.
It is most probable that something overwhelmed them , if they had better training , then perhaps that might have saved them?
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Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.
ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.
You are correct Hunter. People in the West have known these things for a long long time. Russians under Communism is a doctrine of command and very structured, whilst under our structure we are free thinking and adaptable to change. I think this is what you mean and which doctrine wins we will see. However I dont think this applied to our hikers who had already had sufficient training for all such "emergencies" if that is what you are calling the scenario. However mother nature sometimes alters the playing field in a manner that is outside the realms of the normal thinking.
The idea of one society being purely structured and another entirely free-thinking is a false dichotomy. Both systems have produced elements of individual initiative and collective action. From my perspective, both systems are failing and saying one doctrine will win fails to understand how such doctrine's came to be .
However, mother nature is indifferent.
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Well as regards their competency I dont see many failings. The only one that I can assume is that out of the 9 there wasn't one who would stand upto this overwhelming force, which is probably why they call it an overwhelming force. Thing is why didnt this force destroy the whole tent and kill the lot of them at the same time. The reason being it wasn't an overwhelming force. And everyone "should" know by now what I encountered back in 1985ish. Who was the hero that stood up against it - me, maybe because I'm dumb or maybe because I was in a drowsy half awake syndrome. I can suggest they encountered the same thing but were more alert than I, like my wife who scrambled to put her head under the covers. Ie there's a better place to be when something like this presents itself. Just writing this obviously brings back the memory and if you could put yourself in my place, if the both of us had seen "it" which way would we have gone, me trying to calm the wife or the wife's screaming would make me do the same. Obviously it would depend on our make-up, but unfortunately the 9 had similar makeups and panicked.
Common sense isn't all that common.
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Ziljoe
I don't know what happened there. My opinion is that they were not prepared to deal with emergencies, possibly with the addition of additional stress factors.
Regarding stoves. I haven't come across them in reports from those years. Moreover, not every group on a ski trip had them.
If we exclude the option of deliberate murder of the group or poisoning with something, then it is quite possible that they could have survived and returned to the tent, if they had training (not “on paper”, so to speak) on actions in emergency situations.
ahabmyth, what did you encounter?
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ahabmyth, what did you encounter?
He's probably referring to this previous post of his: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1799.msg26709#msg26709
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ahabmyth, what did you encounter?
He's probably referring to this previous post of his: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1799.msg26709#msg26709
Yes exactly what RMK said.
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Ziljoe
I don't know what happened there. My opinion is that they were not prepared to deal with emergencies, possibly with the addition of additional stress factors.
Regarding stoves. I haven't come across them in reports from those years. Moreover, not every group on a ski trip had them.
If we exclude the option of deliberate murder of the group or poisoning with something, then it is quite possible that they could have survived and returned to the tent, if they had training (not “on paper”, so to speak) on actions in emergency situations.
ahabmyth, what did you encounter?
Hunter ---I/we saw exactly as described under the Cedars heading, its been there for some time now.
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Ziljoe
I don't know what happened there. My opinion is that they were not prepared to deal with emergencies, possibly with the addition of additional stress factors.
Regarding stoves. I haven't come across them in reports from those years. Moreover, not every group on a ski trip had them.
If we exclude the option of deliberate murder of the group or poisoning with something, then it is quite possible that they could have survived and returned to the tent, if they had training (not “on paper”, so to speak) on actions in emergency situations.
Hi , Hunter.
Yes, it is a possibility that they were missing certain skills but even the most basic skilled person would take more equipment or clothes . In my mind that makes me think they had no choice or couldn't take anything more for a reason.
This is from the kraelin hike , in Library of reports on sports trips from 1959 at the same time as Dyatlov.
"The Toshemka Valley is not wide. There are almost no channels. There is only a large island in one place. Moreover, the right channel can easily be confused and taken for the Malaya Toshemka. This island is located approximately 8 km from the mouth of the Malaya Toshemka. Such a mistake is quite possible, because there is no visibility from the river in this area, there are no landmarks. At the beginning, we made a similar mistake. The exception to the mistake: 4-5 kilometers before the mouth of the Malaya Toshemka, the Chistop massif and the Bald Mountain at the fork of the Malaya and Bolshoy Toshemka are clearly visible."
"The sunset was bad. And indeed, after sunset the wind picks up, which dies down only in the morning. During the wind, a flaw in the stove pipe design was revealed. The stove pipe was a sliding one made of four elbows, with a spark arrester on top. The pipe was inserted from the outside through an opening in a metal sheet sewn onto the slope of the tent. However, the pipe was only 30 centimeters above the slope of the tent, while the center point of the tent exceeded the level of the spark arrester by another 30 centimeters. Sparks, hitting the spark arrester, unfortunately did not go out, but were only reflected downwards and, in any direction of the wind, fell on the tent awning. Therefore, we had to vigilantly monitor that the sparks did not burn holes in the tent awning. However, in the first two nights we already made three holes. In the absence of wind, the sparks calmly rose upward and went out. To combat sparks around the pipe, they began to place a rag, previously soaked in water and frozen, on the awning."
Above , we can see one other group had a stove, holes were made in the tent by the embers coming out of the pipe.
Below , is just an example of a few pages of the report and I think it's one of the most important documents that hasn't been used in our decisions. It's full of information that the Dyatlov hikers came across. ( This group are the group that witnessed the lights/rocket/ meteor on the morning of the 17th of February. )
In no particular order, things of interest that are the same as Dyatlov group or involve winter hiking .
1) the use of the strongest skiers going first without back backs ( up to 5km) then coming back for the back packs
2) climbing pine trees.
3) holes in the shoe covers and why gaiters are used over shoe covers.
4) how to ski down hill with skis and hold the body .
5) one team member getting lost.
6) loosing Mansi trails.
7) warm weather( seems to mean -10c is warmer than -20c. )
8) when to take skis off and walk , when to use ski poles as walking aids.
9) how they buried a container for other hikers to find after the snow melts on top of one of their mountains in summer.
10) how they found the container of I, Dyatlov from the hike the year before on top of the mountain.
11) they talk about their skills and how it's suitable for a grade 3.
12) the exact same drawing of the elk symbol on the tree as in zinas diary .
13) the talk of all the Mansi signs and how they also got lost.
14) two of the group got reprimanded for not doing things correctly ( told off).
15 ) similar descriptions of , digging fire pits, lying in the tent.
16) candles for use in the tent and what is used to catch the wax.
The report is full of useful data that make things more understandable. More than I can remember at the moment. Below are a few pages which I think is a must read to get a context. There may be some translation errors. Please enjoy. I shall attempt to translate it all unless it's already been done on the main website.
"February 12, Thursday, we go to climb Mount Chistop. There are six of us. Volodya Shavkunov is a little ill. Oleg stays with him. We have a hearty breakfast. We take a dry lunch with us and set off. We follow the azimuth to the north. We fight our way through the slums of the Parma spruce-fir taiga. After 2 kilometers we come to a small river, along which a hunter passed long ago. We walk along the river, which meanders a lot. On the river we scared a flock of white partridges. It's a shame we didn't take a gun with us. Soon the river breaks through swamps, lost in the taiga. The swamps are not frozen in many places. I wonder what forces (no) prevent these swamps from being frozen? After all, there is a fast current here, like, for example, on the rapids on the river. In some places the frost still covers the swamps in an icy shell. Then colored ice spots form, sometimes brown, sometimes rusty, sometimes blue. Clearings begin to appear in the taiga. In one clearing we saw the Chistop Ridge 4-5 kilometers ahead of us. We go straight to the ridge. Soon we came to an exceptionally beaten path. People rode along it on skis and on sleds. And hunters rode along it. Having decided that this path leads to the 41st forest section, i.e. along the Chistop Ridge, we cut off to go along it, so that later we could turn west and come out at the main summit of Chistop. After 5-6 kilometers, near a fork in the path, we come across a hut. In winter, no one stopped in this hut, although many traces of huts are visible in the snow around. Near the hut, on the trees stripped of bark, signs are cut out, incomprehensible to us. Here an empty pack of "Sever" cigarettes hangs on a branch. Then we go along the left ski track. The weather is bad, clouds have covered everything. After 5-6 kilometers we decided to start climbing to the west.
A steep forested slope begins immediately. Two hours of intensive work, and we are at the top. However, it turned out to be only a high-rise located 3-4 kilometers from the Chistop ridge. In addition, when we climbed out onto the high-rise, thick soft snow began to fall. We climbed to the top of a tall pine tree on the top of the high-rise. However, there was no visibility. Only very vaguely, something was guessed to the west of the high-rise. Since it was impossible to get our bearings, we decided to abandon the assault on Chistop and return to the camp on Severnaya Toshemka.
We slide down like meteors. You go very fast on the ski track, so you have to brake all the time. At medium speed, and even then with difficulty, you can still make turns and slip between the trees, like on a slalom hill. Without backpacks, everyone manages to do this, since the technical skiing training of all participants is relatively high.
On the way back, not far from the polaz, when the snowfall stopped and it became possible to get our bearings, we decided to survey the Chistop ridge from the treetops. Almost everyone climbed the pines. A view of the entire Chistop ridge opened up before us.
Suddenly we see a man on skis standing on the ski track. He has a gun over his shoulder. We climb down from the trees and approach him. In front of us is a young Mansi. He was wearing an overcoat made of greatcoat cloth with a hood thrown over his back. His trousers were wide to the hips, but the legs were narrow, right into the crotch. The trousers were tucked into leather boots with upturned toes. He was belted with a belt without a buckle. His round head was crowned with a shock of long black hair. In his eyes, slightly elongated at the corners and round in the middle, there was not a shadow of surprise. On the contrary, we saw in them an enormous a sense of self-worth and self-confidence.
Let's start a conversation.
Hello!
Pache ruma (hello friend) -
What's ahead?
Chizup -
- And downstairs? -
- Lagunya
Where are you coming from and where are you going?
From there and there. The hunt was
-Where do you live?
- Bakhtiyarov's yurt. There
The taciturn Mansi waved his hand vaguely.
Where is Horta? -
- Vapsos. Go to the path. You will come to a warm yurt. Sansem is close.
Our Mansi took off and quickly ran along the track on his huge wide skis. Before we could blink, there was no trace of him. A minute later, we realized that we hadn’t had time to ask where this Vapsos was. Volodya Skutin rushed after the Mansi. He had to catch up with him. It’s not for nothing that he’s not a skier and plays for the institute’s team. We also hurried along the track, and here’s the hut. Near the hut there’s a team of reindeer. A young Mansi woman is sitting on the sled. We drive up to her and try to start a conversation with her. She silently Paris takes a piece of sugar out of her pocket and holds it out to her. At first, she’s embarrassed, then she grabs it and immediately puts it in her mouth. “The Mansi woman is dressed in the same outerwear made ofgreatcoat cloth, the name of which we never learned, and from under which her colorful dress peeked out. In addition, she was wearing wide Cossack-type trousers. She had a bright scarf on her head.
Volodya Skutin rode up to us. He was never able to catch up with the Mansi. The Mansi are exceptionally hardy. They are all built rather poorly: they look puny and dry. However, you can’t keep up with them on skis. The Mansi goes hunting and doesn’t take anything to eat. He leaves in the morning and is home in the evening. During the day he covers a circle of five to ten kilometers, sleeps at night and goes hunting again the next day. In addition, the Mansi have acclimatized exceptionally well to the north and easily tolerate the cold. We were told in Ivdel that a Russian hunter was walking along a snow-covered path and saw a pile of snow. And a leg was sticking out of the pile. He started digging and stopped the Mansi, the Zhinsi was very unhappy that the Russian hunter prevented him from getting enough sleep. It turns out that the Kansi was sleeping right in the snow.
Soon another team of reindeer drove up to us, and with it came two Mansi on skis. One of them was already familiar to us, and the other was much older. It was Aleksandr Prokopyevich Bakhtiyarov. His face was covered with large wrinkles and had some kind of sly expression. The hair on his head was braided into a plait, at the end of which there was a knot. The Shansi were returning from hunting. They had just killed an elk and were not returning home empty-handed. However, during the hunt, one of the reindeer was killed by a wolf, so both sleds were loaded with meat. It was about twenty kilometers to the yurt. We agreed with Aleksandr Prokopyevich that we would come to his yurt tomorrow.
The deer ran briskly, and we set off after them as fast as we could. After 5 kilometers, this caravan reached a square fence with a side of about 10 meters. There were several deer in the fence. We said goodbye to the Mansi and rode on, and they stayed to harness the third sled.
After another 3 kilometers we came across a Mansi bivouac. There were some things, some skins, some bags. And soon we reached the northern Totemka at the mouth of the Lozhanya. In the evening the weather got worse. A ground snowstorm is sweeping. Today it is favorable. We quickly go down the Topenka and in an hour we arrive at the camp. There is a strong wind on the river, and near the tent behind the wall of trees there is complete silence. Only in the treetops does the wind howl.
We failed to take Chistop. Our mistake was that we set up a base camp far from the highest point of Chistop. Undoubtedly, the bad weather also interfered.
On Friday, February 13, we got up as usual. The wind does not stop. We go up Tosheshka against the wind. Our tracks from yesterday are completely covered. We have to bend over. The wind hits our faces, taking our breath away. But then we turn into the elk onto a reindeer trail, along which the Mansi rode yesterday. It is much better to walk in the elk. The trail is not covered. However, as soon as we come out into a clearing, there are no tracks on the trail, the snow has piled up huge drifts, and we have to walk knee-deep in the snow. Around lunchtime we arrive at Alexander Prokopyevich's yurt.
In a small valley there are two huts, in which two families live. The huts are tall, log-shaped.
SKIPPED.
We got to talking with the owner of the yurt.
The Mansi live mainly by hunting. They eat mainly meat. Soviet laws allow the Mansi to kill elk, since this is their only source of existence. The Soviet government sometimes gives the Mansi free food. The Nancy receive some of the food and ammunition for sable and squirrel skins, etc. In 1936, the National Mansi Council was created in the village of Toshemka at the mouth of the Severnaya Toshemka River. The village had a boarding school, a meeting point, a store, a cooperative, and a post office. In 1938, the Council was transferred to Buriantovo. In 1940, a group of Shansi demonstrated their artistic self-sufficiency in Ivdel, and then at a regional review in Sverdlovsk. There is currently a movement among the Mansi to resettle. However, yurts of individual families are still scattered across the taiga. Consciousness is awakening slowly.
Among the Mansi there are also progressive people who fight for a better life for their people with the remnants of the past, with the Vamans, who are still found in the taiga. They are known throughout the region
Stepan Nikolaevich Kurikov, who was elected as a deputy of the Sverdlovsk Regional Council of Workers' Deputies in 1947. We had the chance to meet him much later. He told us how he himself was slow in accepting civilization. When he first rode the train to Sveddevsk, he was so frightened by the "car with smoke" that he left Sverdlovsk for Ivdel on foot.
The vestiges of the past are still preserved in the everyday life of the Mansi. The Mansi still worship their pagan gods. The nuzhchins still wear long hair braided into a braid. The zonshchina is still considered a lower being. And a girl who has not yet given birth to a single child has no right to sit in a room except during lunch. She must work all the time, and in her free time stand at the threshold. We observed this picture in Bakhtiyarov's yurt.
However, the consciousness of the Mansi is awakening more and more. Their life is becoming more and more civilized. Thus, the two sons of Alexander Prokopyevich can read and write. His eldest daughter, as soon as he leaves the yurt, no longer stands at the threshold, but boldly runs the whole yurt. But as soon as the owner appears in the yurt, she seems to stick to the threshold. And Alexander Prokopyevich himself has changed. He started a clock in the yurt. In the morning, his whole family washes. But ten years ago, the Mansi never washed. True, even now, morning washing is very symbolic. The Mansi takes a little water in one palm, smears it on his face and wipes himself with the sleeve of his shirt. However, this already speaks of the beginning of a cultural revolution in the consciousness and life of the Mansi. In the evening, in a conversation with Alexander Prokopyevich, we discovered his interest in the political life of the country
told us that soon it would be necessary to go to Vizhay, since there would be elections, and the whole family would go to Vizhay to vote. In a conversation with him it became clear that now it was easier for him to live, since in the cooperative one could always get gunpowder and lead, food products and clothes, that now without the cooperative it would be "very bad" for him to live.
In the evening, after a hearty dinner, during which we finished almost a bucket of elk meat bought from the Mansi, we sit for a long time by the "potbelly stove" and talk with Alexander Prokopyevich. We settled around him on the skins laid on the floor, and he sat on a block and loaded cartridges. We asked the owner about the signs that we encountered in the taiga on the trees. When a Mansi hunter kills an animal, he goes out on the trail and makes a notch on a tree in a conspicuous place in joy and in memory of his success. First, he carves out the figure of the animal. Animals have their own conventional notches (see Fig. 6). Notches are made above the figure of the animal. Notches are also made under the figure of the animal. The upper notches indicate the number of hunters participating in the hunt. The lower notches indicate the number of dogs. In the middle of the notch, the Mansi puts their family sign, katpos (see Fig. 7). Sometimes there are several notches at the top of the notch, but only one family sign. This means that the father and his sons were hunting. Until they start their own family, the sons put their father's katpos. The katpos is usually first cut out with an axe and then blackened with coal. There are many such monuments to successful hunting in the taiga.
We curiously examine and try on the Mansi winter outerwear made from skins. It is a garment below the knees, with sleeves to which are half-boiled fur prisits, with a closed sewn-on hood. The garment consists of
"
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Please excuse the previous post , it is not finished . I hit post instead of paste. The documentation is from one of the other hikes. I mean to highlight the similarities, including climbing pine trees, khanti, the signs on the trees and the educated Mansi. It is quite bizarre how similar the trip is and gives us an indication of what a final report might have looked like if Dyatlov had completed the hike.
Sorry for the error . I shall get back on it and edit.
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Ziljoe
Features of automatic translation. What you have given has another name "mushroom". And its first purpose is to protect the pipe from precipitation. Here are diagrams of stoves and spark arresters.
https://i.ibb.co/Jwrz9kkd/unnamed.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/1YK272MV/images.png
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Ziljoe
Features of automatic translation. What you have given has another name "mushroom". And its first purpose is to protect the pipe from precipitation. Here are diagrams of stoves and spark arresters.
https://i.ibb.co/Jwrz9kkd/unnamed.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/1YK272MV/images.png
Thank you Hunter
My understanding is this is a spark arrestor.
(https://i.ibb.co/PGDygB1g/Screenshot-20250908-043224-2.png) (https://ibb.co/Zz2rxycx)
And this is the "mushroom" for obvious reasons.
(https://i.ibb.co/NR1rvnz/Screenshot-20250908-043204-2.png) (https://ibb.co/YgDXCTG)
This below is the spark arrestor with a slight wind . I have also made a "mushroom" to go over the spark arrestor although it's mostly unnecessary because little rain goes down the pipe.
(https://i.ibb.co/cSYR1Gt3/Screenshot-20250908-044501-3.png) (https://ibb.co/YF0J3z8Q)
We can see the wind direction, my pipe is long enough for sparks to mostly burn inside the pipe and then the spark arrestor catches the embers over a certain size so there is less chance of an ember escaping, or at least that's how I think it works.
My stove works just like your diagrams show .
I think the disadvantage that the horizontal stove has is the horizontal pipe, the air flow would need to be set up well as blow back could occur easy and I'm not sure how the embers would travel .
Below is a product from the same company as my stove. I am not willing to use such an idea. An open basket around the actual support pole of the tipi..... Not for me unless an emergency!
(https://i.ibb.co/Y72z8N0R/Screenshot-20250908-050300-2.png) (https://ibb.co/N6x8pFTV)
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There is also mention in the report of karelin's conclusion to their experience and skills awarded and the mention of the Dyatlov group rescue. There is the report card of how people performed ( quite brutal, sounds like my school reports) , the costing , the amount of food per person and the cite the books and resources that they used. I find this report fascinating because this is what Dyatlovs end report would have looked like. Some of the translation is wrong. The wood stove might have been vertical? . I only write in capitals before the report card of the groups performance. This is the end of their hike. I haven't copied it all as it's 87 pages.Please enjoy.
---------------------------------------------------------------
".....logs and the quiet roar of timber trucks. Already in complete darkness we came out onto the logging road. How nice it was to see a car!
Another 8 kilometers and we arrived in Bayanovka.
1
Bayanovka is a major logging center. Railroad cars loaded with Kolonginsky timber go from here to many regions of the country. While we were sitting in the dispatch center, we heard about requests from Stalingrad, Kursk, Orsk. We spent the night at the school.
In the morning we walked 6 kilometers to Pokrovsk-Uralsky, where we finished our route.
1 That same day we left for Serov. In Serov we learned about an accident with a group of Sverdlovsk tourists led by Igor Dyatlov. That evening we went to Ivdel and spent another half a month in the taiga doing rescue work in the area of the city of Otorten.
U.I. CONCLUSION
The goals and objectives set for the participants of the expedition were achieved.
As a result of the expedition, a traverse of the Ural ridge was completed along the axis: Mount Chistop, Mount Oika-Chakur, Mount Isherim, Mount Martai - Mount Yubryshka, Mount Bely Kamen, Mount Denezhkin Kamen.
During the hike, the following peaks were climbed in winter conditions: Oika-Chakur, Yalping-Nyor and Denezhkii Kamen.
During the hike, the participants became acquainted with the extremely interesting way of life of the Mansi.
Hikes to the Oika-Chakur peak were studied.
The participants of the expedition got acquainted with the natural features of the Northern Urals in winter conditions.
During the hike, the participants improved their athletic skills. The hike was a school for training the hikers to independently lead difficult winter hikes.
As a result of the expedition, Karelin S. fulfilled the initial standard for being awarded the title of Master of Sports in Tourism.
During the expedition, diagrams of the Oika-Chakura and Dene-kina Stone nodes were drawn up.
Of the tasks set, two were not completed:
I) the ascent of Mount Chistop was not completed for the reasons stated above.
2) the cave at the mouth of the Northern Totemka was not inspected due to a deviation from the intended route due to the presence of a road from Kimai to section 63.
During the sixteen days of travel along the route, the group covered only 316 kilometers. Of these, 238 kilometers involved overcoming natural obstacles. The entire route ran through uninhabited areas. Eleven overnight stays were organized in field conditions.
After the expedition, its participants took part in rescue operations to search for I. Dyatlov’s group, which lasted for half a month.
(BELOW IS THE REPORT CARD. THE NAMES ARE WRONG AND THE LAYOUT BUT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THE STRONG POINTS AND BAD POINTS OF THE HIKERS.ed)
Upon returning to Svordlovsk, the expedition was discussed by the group at a meeting. At this meeting, each section of the expedition was discussed and assessments were made for each participant.
darling,
Assessment
Flaws
Positive qualities
manaki orgy
3
Unhardworking, undisciplined, morally unstable.
Physically strong, a passionate romantic, a good storyteller.
rice
He lacks initiative, did a poor job of fulfilling his duties as a caretaker, and his ski equipment is weak.
Works well with the map, morally stable
rice
Ryachko
3
Poorly observant, not used to difficulties, poor tourist equipment.
Possesses tenacity, is a romantic.
Vnin OD
4
Poorly observant, poor tourist technology.
Exceptionally hard-working, friendly, highly conscientious.
relin ava
4
Unity of command, there are elements of risk, vagueness in orders.
Physically prepared, mentally stable, knows how to raise the spirit of the group, hardworking, proactive.
Utin Adimir
5
Does not possess tactical techniques of a tourist.
Proactive, hardworking, morally stable, physically prepared, strives for knowledge.
genius
5
Doesn't always work at full capacity, lacks initiative, and is abrupt.
Hardworking, morally stable, physically prepared.
today
4
Grumpy, morally unstable.
Well oriented, physically prepared
Overall, the group rated the hike as good, since there were shortcomings in the preparation of the hike, and also the group did little socially useful work.
The route as a whole is undoubtedly of great interest from both an educational and an aesthetic and sporting point of view.
The route can be improved as follows. Instead of entering Mount Chiston directly from the village of Vyzhai, go up the Vizhai River to its headwaters. Then cross in the Oika-Chaku-ra area into the valley of the Bolshaya Moyva River, climb the Tulymsky Stone, and then cross to the headwaters of the Vels River and from Mount Mar-tai continue the route as in the passed version.
The route was completed almost 2 days ahead of schedule. This can be explained by the good physical preparation of the group and the endurance of its members, as well as the ease of movement on the last section of the route due to the presence of winter reindeer roads.
The following comments should be made regarding the conduct of the hike:
I. Overall, the group was quite strong both physically and morally.
2. A song should be considered a huge organizer, inspirer and educator in a difficult hike, which unites the group, helping to fight difficulties.
3. In winter conditions, when setting up a bivouac, it is absolutely necessary to follow the rule that everyone should work.
4. A tent without a bottom in combination with a stove and sleeping bags 1 fully justified itself. Moreover, if you have single sleeping bags, you can take one less than the number of participants in the hike, since one person has to be on duty at the stoves. Branches are placed under the tent.
5. Those on duty at night manage to dry all the wet things above the stove.
6. If you have a tent, stove and shoe covers, you should take only half the number of felt boots relative to the number of participants.
7. Simple conical sections of a stove pipe loosen when heated and the pipe often "falls" onto the stove. To prevent this, we propose a simple device (see Fig. 12). In each elbow of the pipe, a groove is pressed out from the inside to the outside in the form of the letter "G". On each inner ring of the pipe, a hemisphere is pressed out with a stamp. The latter, when one section is inserted into another, enters the groove of the outer section, and at the top of the groove, the sections of the pipe are connected by turning into a lock. A similar lock is made to connect the pipe to the stove.(https://i.ibb.co/9Hghz42J/Screenshot-20250908-054904.png) (https://ibb.co/v4qhgdmb)
8. When moving in winter conditions over very rugged terrain, the shuttle method of moving a group is effective.
9. The ascent to Mount Oika-Chakur should be made from the upper reaches of Vizhay through the saddle between the eastern and main peaks. Here is the most convenient pass through the Ural ridge from Asia to Europe.
10. Winter ascents to peaks should be made in gaiters, not in shoe covers.
II. Winter ascents to the peaks should be carried out in a small group, leaving a spare pear in the camp.
12. In the Northern Urals in winter you can diversify your menu
by collecting frozen kiwifruit, from which you can make vitaminized jelly.
13. Halva, successfully used during the hike, demonstrated exceptionally good taste and caloric properties.
14. A small pair of spare skis is absolutely necessary when hiking in the Northern Urals in winter conditions.
15. When hiking in the Northern Urals in winter conditions, you should not take more than one hunting rifle, and the presence of one is absolutely necessary, since it is quite possible to encounter wolves.
16. The "dry" lunch proved itself to be quite useful on the hike. Usually for lunch we had: halva, sugar, crackers and Leningrad roll. The entire lunch was packed in a separate bag by the duty officers in the morning and packed so that it could be quickly taken out.
LIST OF GROUP PARTICIPANTS
I. Atianaky Georgiy P r.
2. Borisov Boris lp.
3. Gorichko Oleg b.
4. Granin Victor - P r.
5. Glory to Karelia - I p.
6. Skutii Vladimir - P r.
7. Angry Evgeny P r.
8. Shavkunov Vladimir Pr.
Appendix 3
GROUP EQUIPMENT
I. Shater
2. Two-handed saw
3. Saw wrap
4. Oven
5. Braid 100 m
6. Buckets 2 pcs.
7. Candles and two lanterns
6. Candlesticks 2 pcs.
9. Remnabor
10. Maps
II. First aid kit
12. Cameras 2 pcs.
13. Grocery bags
14. Polovnik
15. Bucket hooks
16. Axes: 2 large and 1 small
17. Spring scales
18. Thermometer
DIETARY DIET FOR ONE PERSON
I. Rusks rye - 300 g
+
2. Sugar - 200 g
3. Canned meat 120 g
4. Smoked sausage 30 g
Ham 30 g
6. Halva - 60 g
7. Cheese - 30 g
8. Butter - 30 g
9. Pea soup or other soups in concentrate 75 g
10. Porridge in concentrate - 200 g
II. Noodles or vermicelli 30 g
12. Dry cream -30 g
13. Salt -25 g
14. Tea, coffee and various spices 20 g
TOTAL: 1180 g.
Appendix 6
COST OF THE TRIP (PER PERSON)
I. Railway - Sverdlovsk Ivdel
76 rub.
2. Bus - Ivdel - Binay
15 rub.
3. Meals 10 rub. 20 من
360 rub.
4. Moleznaya road - Pokrovsk-Uralsky-
Sverdlovsk 70 rubles.
TOTAL: 521 rubles per person
76
Appendix 7
LITERATURE
Arkhipova N.P.
Severouralsk expedition of the Russian Geographical Society, notes of the Ural department of the Geographical Society of the USSR, issue I. Sverdlovsk, 1994
Berger.
Geognostic notes on the Ural Mountains, Gorny Kurnal, 1826, UL.
Vishnevsky B.N.
Geographer of the Urals and the Kama region I.Ya. Krivoshchekov, News of the All-Union Geographical Society, vol. ob., issue 3, 1954.
Gorchakovsky P.L. High-mountain vegetation of the "Denenkin Kamen" reserve, Sverdlovsk, 1950.
Gorchakovsky
P.L. Forest vegetation of the subalpine belt of the Urals, Collection of works on forestry, issue 2, Sverdlovsk, 1954.
Krylov P.N.
Materials on the flora of Perm province, issue I. Works of the Society of Naturalists at Kazan University, vol. VI, issue 6, 1878.
Kuznetsov N.I. Nature and inhabitants of the eastern slope of the Northern Urals. News of the Russian Geographical Society, volume 23, 1887.
Pesterov V.G. - Brief report on the actions of the Northern Expedition from the time of its approval until 1939. Mining journal IO, CIO, 1839.
Protasov M.I. Description of the Northern Urals beyond the settlement, explored by a mining expedition in 1830, 1831 and 1832 (with two maps), Mining Journal, 1851, issue 4, 1833, issues 2 and 4.
Sorokin N.V.
Material for the flora of the Urals, works of the society of naturalists at Kazan University, TU, issue 6, 1876.
Stepanov N.D.
Weather in the Middle Urals, Sverdliz, 1955.
Gorchakovsky P.L. High-mountain vegetation of the Dene-kikh Kamen reserve, Sverdlovsk, 1950.
Gorchakovsky P.L. History of the development of vegetation of the Urals, 2nd ed., Sverdlgiz, 1953.
Gorchakovsky P.L. Forest vegetation of the subalpine belt of the Urals, Collection of works on forestry, second issue, Sverdigiz, 1954, pp. 15-65.
Gorchakovsky P.L. Cedar forests of the Urals and prospects for their use, works on forestry, issue 2, Novosibirsk, 1955, pp. 183-188.
Gorchakovsky P.L. Meadows of the high mountain regions of the Urals, Sverdlgiz 1955.
Gorchakovsky P.L. Vegetation of the mountain tundra of the Urals, Notes of the Ural Department of the Geographical Society of the USSR, issue 2. Sverdlgiz, 1955, 39-158.
Gorchakovsky P.L. The boundaries of the distribution of Siberian cedar on
Urals, in the book "To Academician V.N. Sukachev on the 75th anniversary of his birth", published by the USSR Academy of Sciences, M-L, 1956, 131-141.
lamb
Gorchakovsky P.L. High-mountain vegetation of the Chistop ridge in the Northern Urals. Vimlevedenie, v.4, 1957, 118-141.
Kuznetsov N.I.
Nature and inhabitants of the eastern slope of the Northern Urals, News of the Russian Geographical Society, vol. 23, 1007, pp. 726-14.
Ovesnov A.M.
- Meadows of the Sosva River Valley (Middle Urals), News of the Natural Science Institute at Perm State University, Vol. 12, Issue 10, 1950, 445-459.
Babakov G.
In the land of cedar and sable, Ural Pathfinder, No. 8, 1958
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Oh god no not again. cry2 lol1 lol2 dance1 cry2 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1
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Some things now make more sense, or at least explain equipment chosen. If the students are learning from each other and reading each others hiking reports , then they are gaing experience and evolving every year. From clothes , blankets , sleeping bags , medication, first aid , wood stoves, ski's etc etc are advised .
If we take the confusion of why take wool blankets instead of sleeping bags , one of the reports from 1956 goes into detail as to why.
They go on to explain that the tent is so hot that they sleep on top of their sleeping bags, they joke about begging the night duty officer to not put any more logs in the stove or open the door. They talk about it being too hot to raise their hands . They note that they could haved saved 2kg per person by not taking sleeping bags .
This tent has a burnt roof also plus the perpetual sewing that seems to have happened to the dyatlov tent too. There is mention of a tarpaulin but I think this is to sit over the tent as another layer.
It is recommended to have the stove pipe horizontal through the tent as this adds 50 percent more heat. Likewise , it is more efficient to have a wood stove than burn wood outside to warm up as that takes far more wood processing .
It is also great for drying the clothes , they say less clothes are needed also, so again , less to carry . The stoves are also super efficient and need little wood but they recommend that the pipes be over 90mm in diameter because of soot and build up , particularly from high resin wood.
There are numerous wood stoves of all shapes and sizes , all self made ,and claims of engineering genius are boasted by all the individual groups over their own stove design.
So, all the tents seemed to be quite weathered and abused but functional, Dyatlov would possibly have read many of these hiking reports and decided against sleeping bags for example. If we notice, the group never complain about being cold in their tent, even with just wool blankets but this must be because of the wood stove.
A warm night is crucial to keeping the team going , so I'm having to rethink my thoughts about why they chose to camp on the side of 1079 . The short distance travelled that day makes little sense, the treeline is 1.5 km away which is nothing for the sake of a comfortable night , it's difficult to get lost , it's up hill or down hill basically . I don't think it can be a storm coming in that stopped them in their tracks as it's easier and quicker to move to the treeline than dig a snow shelf and pitch the tent .
Continuing to travel after sunset seemed to be possible when needed so I'm beginning to think they had to camp there for some other reason or they did intend to get wood for the stove ....or they had used the stove and it was actually morning ( still dark) and it had been packed up , then the incident took place.
I can't think what it was that they didn't have in any of their training, equipment or experience that couldn't help them cope, but I don't think I've ever heard a good explanation as to why they choose that location to camp. It wasn't needed for the level 3 and they wouldn't know if the wind would rage in the middle of the night . I don't think they would take that chance unless they had to.
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Ziljoe
The loading of firewood was standard at that time - there was a door on the side. But the pipe could be brought out either through the upper end or through the side opposite the end with the door.
The designs of the stoves at that time differed slightly, in general they were of the same type - a container for loading firewood and that's it. It's just that at that time it was still at the stage of development, testing, plus the lack of the Internet as a means of communication, so many were pioneers. The exchange of experience was more within the tourist sections at the city level, at most at the regional level.
The reports with the stoves show why the Dyatlovites went only with thin wool blankets - with a working stove, thick sleeping bags with cotton or down fillings are not needed. And Dyatlov already had experience of hiking with a stove.
At that time, a spark arrestor was the name given to this design, which was not actually one, but rather protected the pipe from precipitation:
https://ibb.co/YgDXCTG
It is the presence of "turns" in the stove itself that reduces the number of sparks at the exit of the pipe.
The equipment of the Dyatlov group was standard, not much different from the equipment of other groups.
ahabmyth, can you provide a link?
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Hunter
I think we are saying the same thing. We got here over the burning of pine and cedar.
The stove pipe can exit where ever you want it to. I have said stoves were simple from the start and I'm not so sure if they were pioneers, rather just doing what others did until mass production.
I wasn't particularly directing my response at you , more the other forum readers as there were post about the blankets and why not sleeping bags. I believe this mentioned in the final case files to the UPI. I am sure communication was as good without the internet. I lived at a time when there was none .
I agree regarding the equipment being standard , everything seems standard as does their experience.
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Ziljoe
Regarding stoves - more complex designs appeared much later. And these stoves were also often not mass-produced, but made independently, although sometimes on high-quality (for the USSR) equipment. At the time of the death of the Dyatlov group, stoves were just coming into use by tourists.
And in the USSR, the production of goods for tourism was in very bad shape. Therefore, tourists made many things themselves or found substitutes. For example, one report praised work overalls as outerwear for hikes instead of storm suits. Another praised the officer's winter uniform. Books on homemade tourist equipment were published because the Soviet economy practically did not have a private sector that would meet the needs of the population, quickly responding to market changes. And the underground market was focused on other needs. But that's a separate story.
I also lived in times without the Internet. I lived through the time of reels (though they were running out), audio cassettes, video cassettes, CD and DVD discs, floppy disks and flash drives. In the 50s, tourist connections were just beginning to form.
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Ziljoe
Regarding stoves - more complex designs appeared much later. And these stoves were also often not mass-produced, but made independently, although sometimes on high-quality (for the USSR) equipment. At the time of the death of the Dyatlov group, stoves were just coming into use by tourists.
And in the USSR, the production of goods for tourism was in very bad shape. Therefore, tourists made many things themselves or found substitutes. For example, one report praised work overalls as outerwear for hikes instead of storm suits. Another praised the officer's winter uniform. Books on homemade tourist equipment were published because the Soviet economy practically did not have a private sector that would meet the needs of the population, quickly responding to market changes. And the underground market was focused on other needs. But that's a separate story.
I also lived in times without the Internet. I lived through the time of reels (though they were running out), audio cassettes, video cassettes, CD and DVD discs, floppy disks and flash drives. In the 50s, tourist connections were just beginning to form.
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The stoves today are of little difference, it's basic metal skills to manufacture , in fact I would think the hand skills were better in the 1950's . The advantage mainly resides in the weight of materials. Many people make their own today because they are overpriced box's . Unfortunately the masses don't usually have access to the tools.
They were being used for tourists as early as 1956 and I would suspect ww2 out of ammo boxes . The west was no different in equipment, clothing ant tents alike.
The UK did not have a big private sector for such goods either, mostly ex army equipment and into the seventies.
There seems nothing unusual about the dystov case and the organisation of the hike .
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Ziljoe, for example, has been praised in reports for its imported sleeping bags and tents.
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Ziljoe, for example, has been praised in reports for its imported sleeping bags and tents.
Sorry I do not understand.
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I believe the reason the group camped on the side of the mountain (300mtrs from the top.) was because the route taken was on a much gentler slope. Igor would not have taken this route if he didnt think it would not be beneficial for the group. Camping near the base would mean going downwards then having to climb back up the mountain. Igor was also glad that they had the height making it easier for the final trek to the top of Otorten. I believe he also had the idea of a cold camp (looks like his wishes came true on this hike).
Appears there maybe some unintentional misinformation on this site. I was led to believe that a "woolen blanket" was the Russian name for a "sleeping bag" (and not the equivalent), as I thought it strange. I suppose the "puffy jacket" material may not have been available in Russia at the time.
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I believe the reason the group camped on the side of the mountain (300mtrs from the top.) was because the route taken was on a much gentler slope. Igor would not have taken this route if he didnt think it would not be beneficial for the group. Camping near the base would mean going downwards then having to climb back up the mountain. Igor was also glad that they had the height making it easier for the final trek to the top of Otorten. I believe he also had the idea of a cold camp (looks like his wishes came true on this hike).
Appears there maybe some unintentional misinformation on this site. I was led to believe that a "woolen blanket" was the Russian name for a "sleeping bag" (and not the equivalent), as I thought it strange. I suppose the "puffy jacket" material may not have been available in Russia at the time.
It's a difficult one to figure out. In my opinion, the distance covered was a complete waste of time and effort if that was his plan , 2-3 km in a day? It doesn't really explain the time for building the labaz . His route was to go back into the wood and come up under otorten from there and then possibly cover the ridges on the way back to the labaz.
Having looked at other forums , it would seem a cold camp just means in a tent with a stove and not in a house/hut.
They did have padded cotton wool jackets in the so it union and they go back to Ww2. One of these jackets got burnt I believe.
To go downwards just means the safety out of the wind and I to the forest. The day before they talked about the strong winds. Ignoring a potential avalanche and the danger, camping on an exposed hillside is also far from ideal if strong winds would come. No fire wood or heating just doesn't make sense.. tent in the middle of an exposed hill side, I just can't it.
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I believe the reason the group camped on the side of the mountain (300mtrs from the top.) was because the route taken was on a much gentler slope. Igor would not have taken this route if he didnt think it would not be beneficial for the group. Camping near the base would mean going downwards then having to climb back up the mountain. Igor was also glad that they had the height making it easier for the final trek to the top of Otorten. I believe he also had the idea of a cold camp (looks like his wishes came true on this hike).
Appears there maybe some unintentional misinformation on this site. I was led to believe that a "woolen blanket" was the Russian name for a "sleeping bag" (and not the equivalent), as I thought it strange. I suppose the "puffy jacket" material may not have been available in Russia at the time.
It's a difficult one to figure out. In my opinion, the distance covered was a complete waste of time and effort if that was his plan , 2-3 km in a day? It doesn't really explain the time for building the labaz . His route was to go back into the wood and come up under otorten from there and then possibly cover the ridges on the way back to the labaz.
Having looked at other forums , it would seem a cold camp just means in a tent with a stove and not in a house/hut.
They did have padded cotton wool jackets in the so it union and they go back to Ww2. One of these jackets got burnt I believe.
To go downwards just means the safety out of the wind and I to the forest. The day before they talked about the strong winds. Ignoring a potential avalanche and the danger, camping on an exposed hillside is also far from ideal if strong winds would come. No fire wood or heating just doesn't make sense.. tent in the middle of an exposed hill side, I just can't it.
Goes back to the old question did they use the oven or not. I cannot imagine the stove not having kindling in, they camped where it was available and had been on enough hikes to know the courtesy of restocking when finished, and if it was well known that the mountain was the next stop and little wood on the way that they would have taken some with them.
The stove must have been in its container for the 2.5klm hike and it supposedly found on the floor of the tent ,so if it had charcoal in it (which we dont know) then its logical to assume the fire was lit. Unless their entertainment was "whose the fastest stove assembler".
We are told they didnt find a labaz behind them at the start of the mountain and I'm not surprised half the digging would have been in rock and soil. So who dug the den/labaz near the cedar. Digging a 30ft den would have kept anyone warm.
Oh forgot to mention good idea about splitting 1079 in half as getting over the top. Could see this coming as soon as I joined up.
What I think maybe a solution (ha ha) is having say 6 empty boxes with the voted say 10 best theories on just the -exit from the tent -. Then the next portion say" The Slope" , next The Cedar ( to keep everyone happy) The Ravine etc, The Search etc.
Then the contents of each box voted on, until 1 winner in each box , then I dont know and will probably go to the supermarket and freeze to death on the way..
Yes that right Suri I live in Melbourne.
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Goes back to the old question did they use the oven or not. I cannot imagine the stove not having kindling in, they camped where it was available and had been on enough hikes to know the courtesy of restocking when finished, and if it was well known that the mountain was the next stop and little wood on the way that they would have taken some with them.
The stove must have been in its container for the 2.5klm hike and it supposedly found on the floor of the tent ,so if it had charcoal in it (which we dont know) then its logical to assume the fire was lit. Unless their entertainment was "whose the fastest stove assembler".
We are told they didnt find a labaz behind them at the start of the mountain and I'm not surprised half the digging would have been in rock and soil. So who dug the den/labaz near the cedar. Digging a 30ft den would have kept anyone warm.
Oh forgot to mention good idea about splitting 1079 in half as getting over the top. Could see this coming as soon as I joined up.
What I think maybe a solution (ha ha) is having say 6 empty boxes with the voted say 10 best theories on just the -exit from the tent -. Then the next portion say" The Slope" , next The Cedar ( to keep everyone happy) The Ravine etc, The Search etc.
Then the contents of each box voted on, until 1 winner in each box , then I dont know and will probably go to the supermarket and freeze to death on the way..
Yes that right Suri I live in Melbourne.
I agree here. If they had planned to camp somewhere on the side of 1079 , then taking some wood from their last camp, where they stored their extra food , would be the easiest thing to do. They would have to take fuel for food and water. It's such a wasted day to travel 2 km to then pitch on a slope. This is where teddy's theory starts to gain traction.
There is a chance that it had been used and what we see is actually the start of them packing up and getting ready for the day.
The den at the ravine is more than likely the hikers , the ravine would have either been an open feature that the snow had not filled in or if the snow had filled the ravine early in the winter season , then there may have been snow bridges and snow caves formed for the hikers to try and make a shelter where they found dead.
It is almost as if the hikers followed the start of the stream on the slope , followed it's pathway down as there were less trees until they met the outlet of the ravine stream then followed that stream upwards towards the cedar .
It was just such a small hike and distance to pitch a tent that day when their goal was the comfort of the taiga.
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But then we have to go back to the 3 on the slope going uphill. Have the 3 of them gone loopy or are they heading "back" to "the tent".
If we look at the planned route , they were supposed to go over what we now call Dyatlov pass. This is a low level climb from one treeline ( labaz and the last campsite) over the pass and back into the comfort of the forest . They could then move along the forest/treeline/ river to the base of Ortoten.
It probably takes over an hour to pack and and an hour tounpack the tent and equipment, so the small distance covered doesn't make for a good plan in my opinion.
By all accounts it would seem the 3 are heading back to the tent . Obviously it could be argued they were going down the slope where they then failed .
What is unusual is Zina being at the furthest point away from her friends . If she failed going down hill , I am sure all the group would carry her , she would not be left alone . If she was the last alive and the three were returning to the tent for whatever they could recover , then I can only imagine she was perhaps the one that was protected the most at the ravine .She also seems to have more body fat than the others ( some others seemed have extremely low body fat) that may have helped with energy and body heat retention allowing Zina to strive that bit further . Zina also talks/writes in a passionate and caring way , her instincts to try and save the others whilst fighting her own body shutting down, may be forever etched into history for eternity.
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ahabmyth
Seriously, FFS ! Stop editing!.
You are chewing all the posts up into a incoherent mess.
@admin , please give ahabmyth a crash course ot take away his editting button .
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ahabmyth
Seriously, FFS ! Stop editing!.
You are chewing all the posts up into a incoherent mess.
@admin , please give ahabmyth a crash course ot take away his editting button .
Oh you noticed.They are already a mess. As I said when I joined I am not used to word processors and am still learning. You just happened to be my student. Gotta be nice to people. Plus my internet connection is not as good as yours in the states so I have to save ,then come back and do a bit more and again and sometimes again, I'm sure you wouldnt like it happening to you, so a little leeway here please.
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ahabmyth
Seriously, FFS ! Stop editing!.
You are chewing all the posts up into a incoherent mess.
@admin , please give ahabmyth a crash course ot take away his editting button .
Oh you noticed.They are already a mess. As I said when I joined I am not used to word processors and am still learning. You just happened to be my student. Gotta be nice to people. Plus my internet connection is not as good as yours in the states so I have to save ,then come back and do a bit more and again and sometimes again, I'm sure you wouldnt like it happening to you, so a little leeway here please.
It's not like you to be so sensitive?!
When you reply and quote someone you must have their quote at the top and type within your own quotes. I'll try a picture. 2 ticks.
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But then we have to go back to the 3 on the slope going uphill. Have the 3 of them gone loopy or are they heading "back" to "the tent".
If we look at the planned route , they were supposed to go over what we now call Dyatlov pass. This is a low level climb from one treeline ( labaz and the last campsite) over the pass and back into the comfort of the forest . They could then move along the forest/treeline/ river to the base of Ortoten.
It probably takes over an hour to pack and and an hour tounpack the tent and equipment, so the small distance covered doesn't make for a good plan in my opinion.
By all accounts it would seem the 3 are heading back to the tent . Obviously it could be argued they were going down the slope where they then failed .
What is unusual is Zina being at the furthest point away from her friends . If she failed going down hill , I am sure all the group would carry her , she would not be left alone . If she was the last alive and the three were returning to the tent for whatever they could recover , then I can only imagine she was perhaps the one that was protected the most at the ravine .She also seems to have more body fat than the others ( some others seemed have extremely low body fat) that may have helped with energy and body heat retention allowing Zina to strive that bit further . Zina also talks/writes in a passionate and caring way , her instincts to try and save the others whilst fighting her own body shutting down, may be forever etched into history for eternity.
Err as I understand as a novice the group was going the correct route. The Dyatlov pass was used/found by Igor on another hike and we do not know which of the two routes they actually took. IMHO Taking the straight route as on their" itinerary "would have been the best "if it hadn't been for the weather". The slightly harder route but shorter through the taiga would bring them out at the Cedar.
Not unusual for Zina, she was an accomplished hiker, and most women carry more body fat than men just ask a woman in this group about how fat she is.
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But then we have to go back to the 3 on the slope going uphill. Have the 3 of them gone loopy or are they heading "back" to "the tent".
If we look at the planned route , they were supposed to go over what we now call Dyatlov pass. This is a low level climb from one treeline ( labaz and the last campsite) over the pass and back into the comfort of the forest . They could then move along the forest/treeline/ river to the base of Ortoten.
It probably takes over an hour to pack and and an hour tounpack the tent and equipment, so the small distance covered doesn't make for a good plan in my opinion.
By all accounts it would seem the 3 are heading back to the tent . Obviously it could be argued they were going down the slope where they then failed .
What is unusual is Zina being at the furthest point away from her friends . If she failed going down hill , I am sure all the group would carry her , she would not be left alone . If she was the last alive and the three were returning to the tent for whatever they could recover , then I can only imagine she was perhaps the one that was protected the most at the ravine .She also seems to have more body fat than the others ( some others seemed have extremely low body fat) that may have helped with energy and body heat retention allowing Zina to strive that bit further . Zina also talks/writes in a passionate and caring way , her instincts to try and save the others whilst fighting her own body shutting down, may be forever etched into history for eternity.
Err as I understand as a novice the group was going the correct route. The Dyatlov pass was used/found by Igor on another hike and we do not know which of the two routes they actually took. IMHO Taking the straight route as on their" itinerary "would have been the best "if it hadn't been for the weather". The slightly harder route but shorter through the taiga would bring them out at the Cedar. [ could be continued ].
nea1 twitch7 lipseal1 rus1
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ahabmyth
Seriously, FFS ! Stop editing!.
You are chewing all the posts up into a incoherent mess.
@admin , please give ahabmyth a crash course ot take away his editting button .
Oh you noticed.They are already a mess. As I said when I joined I am not used to word processors and am still learning. You just happened to be my student. Gotta be nice to people. Plus my internet connection is not as good as yours in the states so I have to save ,then come back and do a bit more and again and sometimes again, I'm sure you wouldnt like it happening to you, so a little leeway here please.
It's not like you to be so sensitive?!
When you reply and quote someone you must have their quote at the top and type within your own quotes. I'll try a picture. 2 ticks.
Hey when i suggested a one word spelling mistake, I didnt reply with 5 screens of my shortcomings. And not sure of your advice, everything seems ok "until I edit".
So what was wrong with what I just wrote.
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I hope you are joking , you initially seemed to come across as you knew the basics about the incident. I understand if it's new to you but the maps are quite specific and you claim to have been reading many of the posts.
After the expedition, the mountain pass where the incident occurred was officially named Dyatlov Pass in memory of the group and their leader, not before.
You have mentioned that you thought he had been here before but that is not the case . Dyatlov and others had hiked other locations to the south by maybe 100km or so but not Otroten or the pass .
The two different routes that are talked about are only a few hundred meters apart .
1) The route that took them to where they pitched on the slope of 1079 ( left, this was not in the route plan)
Or
2) The route that was expected from the maps which was to the forest. ( Right, this was in the route plan)
Both paths are in the right direction and are perhaps in keeping with minor adjustments because of surface conditions and/or obstacles. This is a common occurrence on any hike .
The question is ,why pitch on the slope when your intended route is approx 1.5 km in the comfort and shelter of the trees . The circuit was meant to be a loop and not a figure of 8 .
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So you are saying this map is wrong. ( I will check out the other questions for you asap).
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(https://i.ibb.co/1Jwz6Kgn/523390523-1190656486437467-6254577963858406971-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rf1dsMjt)
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By the way this map has been altered,by whom I cant remember. bow7 bow7 bow7 All hail the Ziljoe.
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(https://i.ibb.co/1Jwz6Kgn/523390523-1190656486437467-6254577963858406971-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rf1dsMjt)
The purple line is the intended route. This route takes them over the pass which is now called dyatlov pass . It is marked yellow on the map you provided .
The red line on your map shows where they actually went .
On the map picture I post , where the blue line leaves the purple line , this is where they seem to go off route .
Both pathways could lead them to the ceder and just recently teddy has said that the route down from the original planned path is not ideal..( I think she did).
Hope that helps you.
(https://i.ibb.co/dYgG5QN/Screenshot-20250909-124037-2.png) (https://ibb.co/yjSWQ8z)
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By the way this map has been altered,by whom I cant remember. bow7 bow7 bow7 All hail the Ziljoe.I am not a funny guy . I would like to apologise to everyone on the forum . I especially want to say sorry to Ziljoe , I was wrong ....I won't be sarcastic to others anymore and I will try to be more considerate.
Wow,Thanks for being so understanding ahabmyth, appreciate it.
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Ziljoe
Google autotranslate :).
In short, in reports where imported equipment is mentioned, this equipment is given a high rating, compared to domestic.
The term "cold overnight stay" was quite vague. That is, such an overnight stay was considered to be an overnight stay outside a populated area in a tent with a stove, in a tent without a stove, under a canopy/awning with a fire like a trapper's...
ahabmyth
In fact, tourists sewed sleeping bags (colloquially called sleeping bags "спальники") from blankets. So tourists could sew sleeping bags from wool blankets, and then rip out the threads and return the blankets to their original appearance. Especially if the blankets were not theirs, but government-issued.
According to the materials of the criminal case, there was no firewood in the stove. But the searchers in their memoirs mentioned firewood in the stove. Another thing is that in those days there were no stoves that could work for 5-6 hours on one load of firewood. Maximum - one hour.
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Oh thats correct, Teddy altered the map slightly with a little black man where the monument is.
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Fat chance ( My reply button has been taken away ). I wonder why, has someone have undue effluence over someone all h.
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Sorry Hunter I am not allowed to Quote you.
This firewood thing is a biggy for me as it would (no pun intended) help put to rest probably the main part of many peoples nightmares about Why.
My main supposition is why take out the stove of its container if you wasnt going to use it , and especially if everyone said NO then it would be put back in its container, it appears to me that the students were fairly neat apart from their shoes.
There appears to be conflicting reports of whether there was a fire lit by all levels of investigation. Its unbelievable how incompetent these people were.
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Oh sorry and Modifying too. All h
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The stove hadn't been removed from its case. It was still packed when the tragedy occurred.