Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => Meteor => Topic started by: vanadis on April 11, 2019, 02:49:55 PM
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Fascinated by the topic for several years i have listen through almost every interview on the topic Dyatlov Pass and all the theories that comes with it.
Understanding the complexity is just the beginning of thie mysterious case.
But listen to Teddys last interview i began to wonder if a meteorit could do those kind of damages, if exploding near earth enough?
The thought of Chelyabinsk comes to mind since it also was a event over Ural.
I could also easy have been what the last pictures is about and what fascinated them to go out for a look at the fenomena.
Maybe realasing when they stod there, that it was coming their way.
I dont think anybody could imagine what could happened if it was to come your way.
But seen over and over again the videos available on youtube on the meteor in Chelyabinsk, i wonder if that could be the case.
It maybe also explain the radioactivity on theire clothes, i dont know for sure, but could be a possibility.
Grateful that i was allowed to join and looking forward to hear what your opinion are.
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Fascinated by the topic for several years i have listen through almost every interview on the topic Dyatlov Pass and all the theories that comes with it.
Understanding the complexity is just the beginning of thie mysterious case.
But listen to Teddys last interview i began to wonder if a meteorit could do those kind of damages, if exploding near earth enough?
The thought of Chelyabinsk comes to mind since it also was a event over Ural.
I could also easy have been what the last pictures is about and what fascinated them to go out for a look at the fenomena.
Maybe realasing when they stod there, that it was coming their way.
I dont think anybody could imagine what could happened if it was to come your way.
But seen over and over again the videos available on youtube on the meteor in Chelyabinsk, i wonder if that could be the case.
It maybe also explain the radioactivity on theire clothes, i dont know for sure, but could be a possibility.
Grateful that i was allowed to join and looking forward to hear what your opinion are.
An air burst of a meteor has been considered as credible by some.
Regards
Star man
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I'm thinking maybe several minor ones, as they clearly seem to get away from something.
Shockwave compilation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq02C_3FvFo
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Maybe man made meteors that contain nitric acid! = missiles.
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Fascinated by the topic for several years i have listen through almost every interview on the topic Dyatlov Pass and all the theories that comes with it.
Understanding the complexity is just the beginning of thie mysterious case.
But listen to Teddys last interview i began to wonder if a meteorit could do those kind of damages, if exploding near earth enough?
The thought of Chelyabinsk comes to mind since it also was a event over Ural.
I could also easy have been what the last pictures is about and what fascinated them to go out for a look at the fenomena.
Maybe realasing when they stod there, that it was coming their way.
I dont think anybody could imagine what could happened if it was to come your way.
But seen over and over again the videos available on youtube on the meteor in Chelyabinsk, i wonder if that could be the case.
It maybe also explain the radioactivity on theire clothes, i dont know for sure, but could be a possibility.
Grateful that i was allowed to join and looking forward to hear what your opinion are.
The Theories put forward for trying to explain the Dyatlov Incident are many and varied. The Meteor Theory has been put forward. But any Theory must take into account the whole sequence of events. And that includes the sudden decision by the Authorities to shut the Case down and shut the Area down as well for several years. A meteor would not have caused the injuries to Dubinina.
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The Theories put forward for trying to explain the Dyatlov Incident are many and varied. The Meteor Theory has been put forward. But any Theory must take into account the whole sequence of events. And that includes the sudden decision by the Authorities to shut the Case down and shut the Area down as well for several years. A meteor would not have caused the injuries to Dubinina.l i
Well i think they could if the impact was close enough, no, not the tongue, but that could have a naturally explanation. If you look at the impact of the meteorite in the video, thats exploding high above, imagine that being closer what it could do.
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The Theories put forward for trying to explain the Dyatlov Incident are many and varied. The Meteor Theory has been put forward. But any Theory must take into account the whole sequence of events. And that includes the sudden decision by the Authorities to shut the Case down and shut the Area down as well for several years. A meteor would not have caused the injuries to Dubinina.l i
Well i think they could if the impact was close enough, no, not the tongue, but that could have a naturally explanation. If you look at the impact of the meteorite in the video, thats exploding high above, imagine that being closer what it could do.
But if a Meteor exploded as you suggest then we would expect to see more very serious injuries like suffered by Dubinina.
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Meteors are hardly ever radioactive.
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Why would nine very experienced (despite their young ages) outdoorsmen of sound body of mind flee their tent in the middle of the night leaving their gear and supplies behind? And what the hell happened to them once they reached the forest? I have spent many hours and countless sleepless nights contemplating what might have terrified them so badly. I have never believed in the ‘Alien’ theory nor do I believe they were attacked by animals/yeti/locals/escaped prisoners/Soviet military etc. The evidence is just not there. All evidence seems to point that no one else was there since the only footprints were those of the group. I also do not believe that they attacked each other. From everything I have read this was a tight harmonious group with an ‘All for one – one for all – leave no one behind’ mentality who would literally give the shirts off their back to help one another. I also do not believe they were under the influence of alcohol or hallucinogenic drugs. They undertook this expedition to get their hiking certification and took it seriously. They were not there to party! So what happened? A meteor air burst! Similar to the 1908 Tunguska event but on a much smaller scale. More on the order of the 2013 Chelyabinsk event. Remember the hikers 50km south of the Dyatlov group who saw 3 strange orange orbs in the sky that night? Many have thought that these sightings had to have been either UFO’s or missiles but I believe they saw 3 meteors (or more likely one meteor that had fragmented into three pieces upon entry into the atmosphere). They would have been extremely bright and have been visible for hundreds of miles.
Here is my timeline of the events of February 1, 1959:
It is late in the day and the sun will be setting soon. The group has been hiking and skiing all day. Bad weather has caused them to become disoriented. They have missed the pass and by the time they realize their mistake it is too late in the day to turn back and reach their planned campsite. They are left on the slope with two options. Either hike down 1.5 km to a forest which would provide them with shelter from the fierce winds and elements or set up camp right where they are. They decide on the latter, not wanting to lose the altitude they have gained or they were simply tired and decided to practice some open air camping. Dyatlov assesses the grade of the slope and determines the risk of avalanche is low so up comes the tent. They make their way inside but do not assemble their stove. Maybe they felt they didn’t need it. That candles, sleeping bags and their combined body heat would be enough to keep them warm, or maybe there was simply nothing around them on the open slope to use as firewood. In any case, they settle down and eat a meal together. What they need now most of all is sleep to recuperate from their grueling day but they won’t get it. Right before bedtime four group members, Zolotaryov, Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle (a.k.a. TiBo) and Kolevatov leave the tent for a call of nature. They are better dressed than the others because they had planned to go outside. Once outside they see it. A large and extremely bright orb coming directly towards them! Zolotaryov raises his camera to take a picture and just as he snaps the photo the meteor explodes over their heads (You can see the tops of the heads of the other three at the bottom of the photo). Zolotaryov, who is holding the camera with his two arms extended in front of him, barely has time to turn slightly left when he is hit with the full force of the air burst’s resulting shockwave. His chest and the right side of his ribs are crushed. Additionally, because he was looking directly at the explosion, the shockwave ruptures the membrane surrounding his eyes, causing the fluids to leak out, blinding him instantly. Dubinina is also staring at the meteor with her hands covering her mouth in shock. She is transfixed by this, frozen like a deer in the headlights. She doesn’t turn away from the explosion and the shockwave’s impact is even more devastating to her, hitting her head on in the chest and face. The force of the impact crushes her ribs on both sides as well as crushing her nose and rupturing her eyeball membranes. In horror she bites off a chunk (not all) of her tongue, swallowing a good amount of blood as per the autopsy report.
It is worth pointing out here that one of the big mysteries and points of contention are how Zolotaryov and Dubinina suffered their broken chest and ribs. It was estimated that the force involved would have been similar to a car crash but since none of the surrounding soft tissue was damaged it excludes the possibility that they were in a crash or beaten with a blunt object. What exactly is an air burst and how does it kill? According to a Reddit post “In an explosion, lets say a non-nuclear bomb while ignoring everything except blast effects, you have a very small volume expanding at a velocity far greater than the speed of sound. This pushes the air out of the way, which causes piston heating and a high pressure region at the front of the shock. This high pressure region is what "hits" you and sweeps drag-sensitive targets away. However for an animal it needs to be quite a huge shock, or you need to be very close for this to kill you.”
I believe the Chelyabinsk air burst hit with a force of 1-2 PSI (Wind speeds: 38-70 MPH)* resulting in window glass shattering and light injuries from fragments occurring while the Tunguska event hit with a force of 20+ PSI (wind speeds: 502 MPH). I believe the Dyatlov group was hit with something in the middle, around 3-5 PSI (wind speeds: 102-163 MPH – car crash speed!) which would result in structures collapsing and serious, even fatal injuries occurring. This, IMHO is the most logical explanation for how the injuries occurred.
* All stats courtesy of the CDC
Back to the other two outside the tent. They have also been staring at the incoming object but they realize this is an attack and do what they were trained to do in such instances: Duck and cover! TiBo falls to the ground in the fetal position and manages to turn away just before the shockwave hits, sparing his chest and eyes but unfortunately is struck on the side of his head and on his right forearm by shrapnel, resulting in a fractured skull and haemorrhage to his arm. Kolevatov manages to turn around and fall to his knees but is struck with a small piece of shrapnel behind the left ear. It is not enough to cause a skull fracture but it is enough, in combination with the shockwave, to violently snap his neck forward and deform it. Not surprisingly all four are rendered unconscious.
Now to the five remaining members inside the tent. They are getting ready for bed and have removed their parkas and boots (but not all their clothes as it is still cold in the tent). Suddenly, without warning, they hear a massive explosion and a split second later the shockwave hits, collapsing the tent canvas on top of them. The shockwave also triggers a small loose snow avalanche which partially buries the tent. The heavy canvas of the tent shell has managed to absorb and deflect much of the shockwaves’ energy, sparing them the devastating injuries of their friends outside. But they have not escaped unscathed. The percussion blast would have left them all with concussions and a loud, deafening ringing in their ears. In addition, Komolgorova (a.k.a. Zina), who is lying on her side in the tent directly underneath the horizontal tent pole that keeps it up, is struck on the hip when the tent is blown down, resulting in an injury described as having been hit with a baton.
A few moments later, once they had regained their wits, they assume they are under attack. With the collapsed tent canvas and snow pushing on top of them, they are unable to find the door and someone cuts the canvas with a knife so allowing them to escape. Once outside they see their friends in real bad shape and in dire straits and this confirms to them that the attack was real and they must be the targets since there is nothing and no one else around on the wide open slope. Why did they conclude this had to be an attack? Well, for one even the residents of Chelyabinsk initially thought they were under attack from terrorists so it is not a stretch to see how they could mistake a meteor air burst for a missile or bomb. Remember, this was 1959. The cold war had been raging for over a decade at this point. These young adults would have been brainwashed since youth with propaganda that the ‘evil west’ was out to get them. In their minds the threat was real. Now back to the events. Dyatlov has concluded that they had been attacked and realized they were sitting ducks on the open slope. Fearing that whoever attacked them would be returning to finish the job he decides that they are not safe in their present location and must leave the tent and head for the perceived safety of the forest immediately! They check the four injured for pulses and they all still have one (barely). Their mentality is to leave no one behind and cannot justify leaving their injured friends behind to die so four people each grab an injured person, propping them up on their feet and wrapping an arm around their neck. They are led down the slope by a fifth member with a flashlight (probably Zina, who has an injured hip and cannot support the body weight of another). This was not a mad, crazed dash to the tree line. Investigators determined that by looking at their tracks they had been walking at a normal pace. It would have been very hard to move fast if they were supporting the body weight of another. They descend 500m, suffering cuts, bruises and abrasions to their ankles and lower legs. Some have theorized that they were shackled by their ankles at some point, causing said injuries but I believe they are the result of walking through deep snow and sharp ice without proper footwear. 500m down, the flashlight dies, either from dead battery or not being able to function in the frigid temperatures anymore so it is discarded. It is at this point that the snow pack becomes much harder and they are all able to slide on their backs most of the way down the steep slope to the edge of the forest.
Once having reached the tree line, Dyatlov needs someone to start a fire and act as a lookout while the other four each grab a body and descend further into the forest in search of a suitable location to construct a shelter. The obvious choice would be Zina due to her injured hip but Dyatlov doesn’t want a woman to have to face their attackers so he asks her if she is able to carry a body. Her injury is painful but not crippling so she says she can. Zina is one tough cookie. On a previous excursion she took a viper bite to the leg and despite being in serious pain, she refuses to lighten the load on her back so as not to be a burden to others. She seems to have an innate ability to ignore pain and focus on the task at hand. Dyatlov, confident that she can continue on, delegates the tasks to Doroshenko, who is the tallest and most physically imposing of the group. Doroshenko, now alone, starts a small fire with the intent of turning it into a roaring bonfire. Once the fire is going strong enough to be left unattended for a couple of minutes, he then focuses on his other task: being a lookout. He sees a large cedar tree close to the fire and climbs it, not in the goal of escaping from something or in search of firewood but to see if he can spot the tent and to see if anyone was there or descending the mountain after them. He climbs to an elevation of 5m. He can see the tent but his view is obstructed by a branch. When he tries to push the branch aside he loses his grip and takes a bad fall to the ground below. His injuries are not fatal but he is knocked out. With no one left to tend to the fire, it slowly dies.
Meanwhile, the remaining group has descended 75m into the forest when they come across a ravine that seems well protected from the wind. They are unaware that there is a small creek running through the ravine because it is covered in feet of snow. It is in this location that they decide to dig a snow den for shelter but they have no shovels or any digging tools so they use their bare hands to punch and dig through the hard snow and ice. It is here that the four conscious group members, Dyatlov, Zina, Slobodin and Krivonischenko (a.k.a. Georgy) suffer the injuries to their knuckles that everyone assumes were caused during a fistfight. A rotation is established here. Three people punch and dig in the snow while another cuts evergreen branches to serve as insulation in the den to keep the bodies off the snow. They all take turns until Georgy, poorly dressed and almost completely frozen by this point, cannot continue. Dyatlov tells him to return to the fire to warm up. He does so, only to find barely any fire left and Doroshenko by the cedar tree dying. He no longer has any feeling in his hands or legs and is in agonizing pain. Out of sheer desperation he grabs a smoldering log from the fire pit and presses it against his frozen leg, suffering burns to both areas. This backfires and he is in even more pain than before. He crawls over to Doroshenko’s dying body and lies next to him for body heat but it is too late and the pain is too severe. In his final conscious act he bites the back of his hand off in agony and passes out from the pain. Both he and Doroshenko die of hypothermia. They are the first to go.
Back at the den the digging is complete and evergreen branches have been laid across the floor. On top of the branches they place ripped clothes and belongings to make four seats. Zolotaryov, Dubinina and TiBo are brought into the den. When they try to move Kolevatov, he miraculously regains consciousness. Despite a serious neck injury he is able to walk and talk. Dyatlov then leads them back to the fire to warm up, only to discover no fire and their two friends dead. At this point it is decided that their only hope is to return to the tent to fetch their cold weather gear. Kolevatov is too injured to attempt the hike so Dyatlov tells him to return to the den and tend to the injured. Dyatlov, Zina and Slobodin will go to the tent and return at first light with clothes and supplies. Before returning to the den, Kolevatov tries to remove clothing from the deceased. He turns the body of Georgy over to try and remove his pants but they are frozen so he cuts them open with a knife, leaving straight sharp cuts along Georgy’s leg and thigh. He returns to the den and places Georgy’s pants on Dubinina. He then tries to grab Zolotaryov, maybe in an attempt to place clothing on him as well when suddenly the floor or wall of the den collapses, plunging all four into the icy creek below. The fall, in combination with the frigid waters and their already compromised condition, finish them off. The creek is on a steep slope, and the bodies either roll or are carried downstream by the water for approx. 10m before coming to their final resting place above a rock ledge. Dubinina actually falls over the ledge, with her body and head leaning up against it. She is found with her mouth open and water running through it. I believe that either micro organisms, fish or small animals, attracted by the smell of blood on her bitten-off tongue, eat the rest of it over the next three months.
Finally, back to the trio attempting to return to the tent. They are fighting severe hypothermia and extreme exhaustion by this point. Using the cedar tree as a starting point, the trio walk 300m together until Dyatlov collapses face first. Zina, who I believe has a romantic interest in Dyatlov, frantically tries to revive him. She turns him over onto his back and unbuttons his jacket either to check for a heartbeat or to perform CPR but it’s too late, he dies of hypothermia. She then clasps both of his hands in hers, close to his chest and kisses him goodbye. Zina and Slobodin continue uphill for 180m. Slobodin can hardly keep himself on his feet, falling down face first several times, each time hitting the side of his head because he can no longer brace his fall with his arms. Finally he falls for the last time and does not get up. Zina does not try to revive him. Maybe she doesn’t feel the same affection for him. Maybe she realized it is futile and a waste of energy. Most likely she is so far gone herself that she doesn’t care. She is likely dead on her feet at this point but heroically she continues on alone another 150m uphill until it is all too much. She collapses and expires. She is the last to die.
In conclusion, I believe this is a simple case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Zolotaryov, Dubinina and TiBo were doomed as soon as the shockwave hit, but this story could have had survivors had the remaining six stayed at the tent. Unfortunately, Dyatlov, who is battling a brain injury and is not thinking clearly as a result, misidentifies the threat and dooms the rest of the group by leaving the campsite ill prepared.
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Well that was a scenario that was close to what I thought of when I posted the thread.
Because i saw the force in the Chelyabinsk meteor and it dawned on me that that was a force similar to a car crash and could make a lot of damage on a body without visibel outer trace.
You just told it much better than i ever could. okey1
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[1] I have never believed in the ‘Alien’ theory nor do I believe they were attacked by animals/yeti/locals/escaped prisoners/Soviet military etc. The evidence is just not there. All evidence seems to point that no one else was there since the only footprints were those of the group.
[[ WELL THERE IS EVIDENCE OF SORTS THAT CAN BE INTERPRETED IN VARIOUS WAYS ! ? ]]
[2] Right before bedtime four group members, Zolotaryov, Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle (a.k.a. TiBo) and Kolevatov leave the tent for a call of nature. They are better dressed than the others because they had planned to go outside. Once outside they see it. A large and extremely bright orb coming directly towards them! Zolotaryov raises his camera to take a picture and just as he snaps the photo the meteor explodes over their heads (You can see the tops of the heads of the other three at the bottom of the photo). Zolotaryov, who is holding the camera with his two arms extended in front of him, barely has time to turn slightly left when he is hit with the full force of the air burst’s resulting shockwave. His chest and the right side of his ribs are crushed. Additionally, because he was looking directly at the explosion, the shockwave ruptures the membrane surrounding his eyes, causing the fluids to leak out, blinding him instantly. Dubinina is also staring at the meteor with her hands covering her mouth in shock. She is transfixed by this, frozen like a deer in the headlights. She doesn’t turn away from the explosion and the shockwave’s impact is even more devastating to her, hitting her head on in the chest and face. The force of the impact crushes her ribs on both sides as well as crushing her nose and rupturing her eyeball membranes. In horror she bites off a chunk (not all) of her tongue, swallowing a good amount of blood as per the autopsy report.
[[ SO YOU RECKON THAT MANY OF THE VERY SERIOUS LIFE THREATENING INJURIES TOOK PLACE AT THE TENT LOCATION ! ? ]]
[3] These young adults would have been brainwashed since youth with propaganda that the ‘evil west’ was out to get them. In their minds the threat was real. Now back to the events. Dyatlov has concluded that they had been attacked and realized they were sitting ducks on the open slope. Fearing that whoever attacked them would be returning to finish the job he decides that they are not safe in their present location and must leave the tent and head for the perceived safety of the forest immediately! They check the four injured for pulses and they all still have one (barely). Their mentality is to leave no one behind and cannot justify leaving their injured friends behind to die so four people each grab an injured person, propping them up on their feet and wrapping an arm around their neck. They are led down the slope by a fifth member with a flashlight (probably Zina, who has an injured hip and cannot support the body weight of another). This was not a mad, crazed dash to the tree line. Investigators determined that by looking at their tracks they had been walking at a normal pace. It would have been very hard to move fast if they were supporting the body weight of another.
[[ WHATS THE EVIL WEST DOING IN THIS VERY REMOTE PART OF THE USSR ATTACKING HIKERS. AND YOU RECKON THAT SOME OF THE DYATLOV GROUP CARRIED THEIR VERY SERIOUSLY INJURED COMPATRIOTS FOR ABOUT A MILE, BUT DIDNT BOTHER TO DRESS PROPERLY OR TAKE ANY EQUIPMENT WITH THEM. ! ? ]]
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Hello!
I find one issue with meteor / missile theory.
Let's suppose it happened...
First, they probably had seen light then they made educated guess about it's velocity and trajectory - they were engineers or about to become.
I can imagine observing this orb in sky for few dozens of seconds outside the tent - just everybody in group, talking about it's origin and velocity before
making decision to leave. Then taking as much useful tools and clothes for survival as they can and leaving tent in few minutes.
Not slashing tent from inside with knife madly and walking down slowly, freezing. It makes no sense to me.
Shockwave hit them near tree line, possibly pushing some of them against trees/rocks with huge intensity causing lethal wounds to Zolotarev and Dubinina.
Considering the approaching object to be rocket, let's say rocket of that time, R12 (source: http://www.astronautix.com/r/r-12.html)
Once launched, the missile had a time of flight of 11.8 minutes. Maximum velocity at burnout was 3530 m/s, and warhead accuracy 6 km in range, 5 km laterally.
It takes about 12minutes after launch to hit target. How could Dyatlov's group move so far from tent in 12 minutes ??
Also consider observing conditions in that area on slope which blocks visibility towards hypothetical launch site...
I may be overlooking some important facts but to me, escaping from approaching meteor shower makes some sense, escaping from approaching makes no sense considering the distance they were able to walk...
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It takes about 12minutes after launch to hit target. How could Dyatlov's group move so far from tent in 12 minutes ??
Good point! It is not possible to run away too far if meteor (or missile) is already on its way to the tent. Also it's very hard to calculate trajectory. To run away, you need to be sure that "object" comes directly to your location. Otherwise, you should not bother about it. Further, to perform calculation people should be outside, not inside. The tent had neither windows nor glass roof to see approaching flying object. And if people were outside, it was no reason to slash the tent.
This makes to think that flying object was a surprise for the hikers, who were inside the tent with no exception. It bumpped the slope, which collapsed the tent and made the hikers to urgently get out of it.
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It takes about 12minutes after launch to hit target. How could Dyatlov's group move so far from tent in 12 minutes ??
Good point! It is not possible to run away too far if meteor (or missile) is already on its way to the tent. Also it's very hard to calculate trajectory. To run away, you need to be sure that "object" comes directly to your location. Otherwise, you should not bother about it. Further, to perform calculation people should be outside, not inside. The tent had neither windows nor glass roof to see approaching flying object. And if people were outside, it was no reason to slash the tent.
This makes to think that flying object was a surprise for the hikers, who were inside the tent with no exception. It bumpped the slope, which collapsed the tent and made the hikers to urgently get out of it.
No evidence of a missile was found.
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No evidence of a missile was found.
Yes, nobody argues that. However, for a missile we have at least some indirect signs. Quite a few people observed "fireballs" in sky in that area at different dates. And one group of hikers, which was on the Chistop mountain in the beginning of February 1959, observed a missile (not just "fireball"!) flying close to Otorten. For avalanche, nobody had seen one on 1079 in February 1959 or later. And a missile is more suitable vehicule to tansport radioactive material than avalanche.
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No evidence of a missile was found.
Yes, nobody argues that. However, for a missile we have at least some indirect signs. Quite a few people observed "fireballs" in sky in that area at different dates. And one group of hikers, which was on the Chistop mountain in the beginning of February 1959, observed a missile (not just "fireball"!) flying close to Otorten. For avalanche, nobody had seen one on 1079 in February 1959 or later. And a missile is more suitable vehicule to tansport radioactive material than avalanche.
The objects in the sky were seen by a number of people on different dates . Further research suspects they are either space rockets or missiles separating their different stages. This is caused when the rocket leaves the earth's shadow and the sun then shines on the rocket and its various stages along with the gases . It is usually many miles away .
Dyatlov pass is many miles away from the launch sites and I'm not sure if any ICBM's would have the range from the launch site. Even if they were being tested I'm not sure what the radioactive substance would be or how it came to be as reported. I think they had some sort of radioactive battery for the satellites but the location doesn't seem to fit in with anything.
We have also looked at missiles against the U2 spy plane or fighter jets trying to intercept the spy plane.
I think part of the problem was that the dyatlov location holds no strategic purpose for military sites or flight paths. Only thoughts.
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Further research suspects they are either space rockets or missiles separating their different stages. This is caused when the rocket leaves the earth's shadow and the sun then shines on the rocket and its various stages along with the gases . It is usually many miles away.
A space rocket sounds promising. If we look at the context, on January 2nd, 1959 the Soviet Union performed quite successful launch of a Moon probe. The probe did not reach the Moon, as it was expected, but it passed quite close to it and became Sun's sattelite. So flights to the Moon had become a reality already. What should be next? Obviously, Mars and Venus. But it is hard to reach Mars or Venus on kerosine, more powerful engines were required. And this was especially relevant for upper stages that were expected to leave the Earth's orbit and travel long distances to reach other planets.
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Further research suspects they are either space rockets or missiles separating their different stages. This is caused when the rocket leaves the earth's shadow and the sun then shines on the rocket and its various stages along with the gases . It is usually many miles away.
A space rocket sounds promising. If we look at the context, on January 2nd, 1959 the Soviet Union performed quite successful launch of a Moon probe. The probe did not reach the Moon, as it was expected, but it passed quite close to it and became Sun's sattelite. So flights to the Moon had become a reality already. What should be next? Obviously, Mars and Venus. But it is hard to reach Mars or Venus on kerosine, more powerful engines were required. And this was especially relevant for upper stages that were expected to leave the Earth's orbit and travel long distances to reach other planets.
Case file 209-
On February 17, I and Vladimir Shavkunov got up at 6 am to prepare breakfast for the group. After making a fire and preparing everything necessary, we waited for the food to get ready. The sky was gray, there were no clouds, but there was a slight haze, which usually dissipates with the rising of the sun. Sitting facing north and accidentally turning my head to the east, I saw 30° high in the sky a milky white blur about 5-6 moons in diameter and a series of concentric circles. It resembled a halo around the moon in a clear frosty weather. I made a comment to my partner, that's how they painted the moon. He thought and said that in the first there is no moon, and besides, it should be on the other side. From the moment we noticed this phenomenon, it lasted 1-2 minutes, and how long it was there
Sheet 212
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before we noticed it we don't know. At this moment, at the very center of this spot, an asterisk flared up, which for a few seconds remained the same size, and then began to increase sharply in size and rapidly move in a western direction. Within a few seconds, she grew to the size of the moon, and then tearing off the smoke screen or clouds appeared a huge milk disc of milky color, 2-2.5 moons in diameter, surrounded by the same rings of pale color. Then, remaining the same size, the ball began to fade until it merged with the surrounding halo, which in turn spread out across the sky and went out. It was dawn. The clock was 6.57, the phenomenon lasted no more than a half minutes and produced a very uneasy impression. Initially, we did not pay attention to it, but then, when the glowing disk itself appeared, we were amazed. Personally, I had the impression that some heavenly body was falling in our direction, then, when it had grown to such enormous dimensions, a thought flashed through my head that another planet came into contact with the Earth, that now a collision would follow and nothing would remain of all earthly things. We were already awake for more than an hour, so we were well awake and didn't believe in hallucinations, but we just stood there hypnotized and only when the disc began to fade we rushed to the tent
to wake up our comrades and show them the unusual phenomenon. I do not know how Karelin managed to jump out of the sleeping bag at lightning speed and run outside the tent in his underwear wearing only socks. He managed to see the disc losing its outline and the bright spot spreading across the sky. I had to talk a lot with eyewitnesses, and most people describe this case about the same way and adds that the light from him was so strong that people in homes were awakened from sleep.
Google says the following. ( Although it's AI). I can't remember if this is fact checked.
Actual Program Status: In reality, the Soviet ICBM program was experiencing a standstil due to developmental issues with the R-7 (SS-6) missile. There were no ICBM test launches from the Tyuratam test site (Baikonur Cosmodrome) between May 29, 1958, and February 17, 1959. The February 17 launch would be the first launch of an SS-6 (R-7) in nearly nine months.
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Wikipedia says March 17 1959 so I don't know if rocket types or dates are getting mixed up .
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Wikipedia says March 17 1959 so I don't know if rocket types or dates are getting mixed up .
If we look at the case files, we can see that many people observed "fireballs" twice: on February 17th (e.g. Karelin's group) and on March 31st (e.g. Sogrin's group). Modern investigations show that both "fireballs" were R-7 missiles launced from Tyuratam (Baikonur Cosmodrome) and targeted for Kamchatka, far East of the Sovient Union. Those launches were ICBM tests, which means military program.
At the same time, the Tyuratam site was used to develop Soviet space program. First ever sattilite (sputnik) was launched from there in October 1957. In 1959 Tyuratam was used for the Moon launches. Officially, there were 4 space program launches in 1959, all to the Moon. And 3 of them were successful, which is incredible result. At the beginning of space era we could expect higher failure rate than 25%, as the technology was not mature yet. And there is a big gap in space launches in 1959 -- 1st launch on January 2nd, then second launch only on June 18th. For comparison, gap between launching sputnik-1 and sputnik-2 in 1957 was approximately a month.
This makes to think that in first half of 1959 Tyuratam might had been used for more space program launches. And not necessarily related to the Moon program.
Have you considered NTP rocket as possible cause of DPI?
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No evidence of a missile was found.
Yes, nobody argues that. However, for a missile we have at least some indirect signs. Quite a few people observed "fireballs" in sky in that area at different dates. And one group of hikers, which was on the Chistop mountain in the beginning of February 1959, observed a missile (not just "fireball"!) flying close to Otorten. For avalanche, nobody had seen one on 1079 in February 1959 or later. And a missile is more suitable vehicule to tansport radioactive material than avalanche.
It's a fact that many natives of the area have witnessed strange lights in the sky over a period of time, and that goes back to the time of this mystery. Reports of balls of light are fairly common. One of our researchers was very keen on the ball lightning theory. I don't subscribe to that theory. But I do believe that balls of light, whatever they are, are genuinely witnessed, and they are not missiles.
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Further research suspects they are either space rockets or missiles separating their different stages. This is caused when the rocket leaves the earth's shadow and the sun then shines on the rocket and its various stages along with the gases . It is usually many miles away.
A space rocket sounds promising. If we look at the context, on January 2nd, 1959 the Soviet Union performed quite successful launch of a Moon probe. The probe did not reach the Moon, as it was expected, but it passed quite close to it and became Sun's sattelite. So flights to the Moon had become a reality already. What should be next? Obviously, Mars and Venus. But it is hard to reach Mars or Venus on kerosine, more powerful engines were required. And this was especially relevant for upper stages that were expected to leave the Earth's orbit and travel long distances to reach other planets.
But what does a space rocket sound promising for? If such a rocket had landed at the pass, it would have left a big mess over a wide area.
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Wikipedia says March 17 1959 so I don't know if rocket types or dates are getting mixed up .
If we look at the case files, we can see that many people observed "fireballs" twice: on February 17th (e.g. Karelin's group) and on March 31st (e.g. Sogrin's group). Modern investigations show that both "fireballs" were R-7 missiles launced from Tyuratam (Baikonur Cosmodrome) and targeted for Kamchatka, far East of the Sovient Union. Those launches were ICBM tests, which means military program.
At the same time, the Tyuratam site was used to develop Soviet space program. First ever sattilite (sputnik) was launched from there in October 1957. In 1959 Tyuratam was used for the Moon launches. Officially, there were 4 space program launches in 1959, all to the Moon. And 3 of them were successful, which is incredible result. At the beginning of space era we could expect higher failure rate than 25%, as the technology was not mature yet. And there is a big gap in space launches in 1959 -- 1st launch on January 2nd, then second launch only on June 18th. For comparison, gap between launching sputnik-1 and sputnik-2 in 1957 was approximately a month.
This makes to think that in first half of 1959 Tyuratam might had been used for more space program launches. And not necessarily related to the Moon program.
Have you considered NTP rocket as possible cause of DPI?
Where are the references to the rocket launches? And the flight path you give is nowhere near the Dyatlov Pass.
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But I do believe that balls of light, whatever they are, are genuinely witnessed, and they are not missiles.
That is great that you leave missiles to me! Appreciated!
I see no other interpretation for the fireballs seen in February-March in the Urals. When a missile flies in dark sky and its nozzle spits flame, light from the flame spreads all directions. This is perceived from afar as a fireball. And people, depending of their level of knowledge, called them differently. For usual people they were fireballs. For hikers - planets and meteors (Karelin, Atmanaki). For Mansi - creatures spewing flame from ass (sorry, Korotaev's words). For Maslennikov they were meteorological rockets.
Hikers Vladimirov and Shumkov were very straight - they saw a rocket flying Otorten direction in the beginning of February 1959.
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But what does a space rocket sound promising for? If such a rocket had landed at the pass, it would have left a big mess over a wide area.
I do not think we should talk about a whole rocket. Space rockets are multistage. I think that only upper stage landed there. And upper stage is just few meters long.
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Where are the references to the rocket launches? And the flight path you give is nowhere near the Dyatlov Pass.
Here they are: https://spasecraftrocket.org/s_baikonur1959.html
8K71 is an ICBM, launches were from Tyuratam to KURA (Kamchatka)
8K72 is a space rocket
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But I do believe that balls of light, whatever they are, are genuinely witnessed, and they are not missiles.
That is great that you leave missiles to me! Appreciated!
I see no other interpretation for the fireballs seen in February-March in the Urals. When a missile flies in dark sky and its nozzle spits flame, light from the flame spreads all directions. This is perceived from afar as a fireball. And people, depending of their level of knowledge, called them differently. For usual people they were fireballs. For hikers - planets and meteors (Karelin, Atmanaki). For Mansi - creatures spewing flame from ass (sorry, Korotaev's words). For Maslennikov they were meteorological rockets.
Hikers Vladimirov and Shumkov were very straight - they saw a rocket flying Otorten direction in the beginning of February 1959.
I see an interpretation, and it's called UFO. Unidentified Flying Object. That may or may not be from this planet or existence.
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But what does a space rocket sound promising for? If such a rocket had landed at the pass, it would have left a big mess over a wide area.
I do not think we should talk about a whole rocket. Space rockets are multistage. I think that only upper stage landed there. And upper stage is just few meters long.
In which case, how could it cause the Dyatlov Group to want to abandon their tent and risk death, which is what happened? How was this minor part of the rocket at the tent and the forest, and the ravine? And causing those strange injuries.
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In which case, how could it cause the Dyatlov Group to want to abandon their tent and risk death, which is what happened? How was this minor part of the rocket at the tent and the forest, and the ravine? And causing those strange injuries.
According to Roscosmos, one of the operational trajecrories for spacecraft launches from Baikonur Cosmodrome goes through the Urals. A space rocket launched along that trajectory throws away its 1st stage somewhere in Kazakhstan, while the 2nd stage is thrown away above the Urals. The 2nd stage falls on the ground not far from Ivdel, to the south of the town.
It is expected that the 3rd stage starts its engine and flies further to space. But if the 3rd stage has technical problem and cannot fly, most probably it will fall on the ground to the north of Ivdel. And this 3rd stage will have full tanks of fuel, which is important. Then much depends of what kind of engine the 3rd stage has and what kind of fuel is in the tanks.
It is important that potential areas of rockets' stages landing are huge, and these areas cannot be closed completely. Instead, the authorities put temporary restrictions to access those areas by hikers, hunters, fishermen, etc. Since trajectories are defined to go over low populated areas, people who live there are not asked to leave, as chances to hit anybody are also very low.
Even in case of crash, 3rd stage is usually harmless. It lays in wilderness until evacuation team comes and gets it back to the factory. But it's better not to approach it and not to light a fire nearby.
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If such a rocket had landed at the pass, it would have left a big mess over a wide area.
Perhaps, 'big mess' left by a fallen rocket's stage is an exaggeration. There are examples, when the spot, where a part of a rocket landed, looks quite innocent. This article says more about that: https://www.e1.ru/text/world/2019/02/21/65981111/
(https://i.ibb.co/ZzjYMpWf/Rocket-stage-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkNWrPg8)
(https://i.ibb.co/mrnjtGhL/Rocket-stage-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DPBJktwx)
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If such a rocket had landed at the pass, it would have left a big mess over a wide area.
Perhaps, 'big mess' left by a fallen rocket's stage is an exaggeration. There are examples, when the spot, where a part of a rocket landed, looks quite innocent. This article says more about that: https://www.e1.ru/text/world/2019/02/21/65981111/
(https://i.ibb.co/ZzjYMpWf/Rocket-stage-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkNWrPg8)
(https://i.ibb.co/mrnjtGhL/Rocket-stage-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DPBJktwx)
Well, there are theories surrounding this rocket event. As that article states,'' incidentally, there's a theory that the tourists at Dyatlov Pass in 1959 died precisely because of the stage's fall, or more precisely, because of its fuel. The toxicity of the fuel at the time is unknown.
After the launch, specialists also survey the area, search for separated fragments, neutralise residual rocket fuel components, monitor the environmental situation, and return evacuated people to their original location.''
However, there is no report of anything like that having occurred at the Dyatlov Group's location. Also, if it had occurred, there would have been plenty of physical evidence.
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The toxicity of the fuel at the time is unknown.
The toxicity of the fuel was Zero, if we assume that the fuel of upper stage was LH2:
(https://i.ibb.co/bRjpMJsd/LH2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8qhNC7k)
However, there is no report of anything like that having occurred at the Dyatlov Group's location. Also, if it had occurred, there would have been plenty of physical evidence.
As for me, physical evidence was more than enough. And that evidence was excessive water all around the slope:
Vladislav Karelin: "I kicked a footprint with the toe of my boot. It turned out to be made of ice."
Sergey Sogrin: "We, on the other hand, came across what we believed to be a slope glacier formed by groundwater. It was quite long and steeply descended into the valley."
Rudolf Sedov: "There was a large icy space just down the slope. The ice sparkled in the Sun."
When hydrogen burns in the air, a lot of water is produced, while toxic exhaust is zero:
2*H2 + O2 = 2*H2O + <shock wave>
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The toxicity of the fuel at the time is unknown.
The toxicity of the fuel was Zero, if we assume that the fuel of upper stage was LH2:
(https://i.ibb.co/bRjpMJsd/LH2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8qhNC7k)
However, there is no report of anything like that having occurred at the Dyatlov Group's location. Also, if it had occurred, there would have been plenty of physical evidence.
As for me, physical evidence was more than enough. And that evidence was excessive water all around the slope:
Vladislav Karelin: "I kicked a footprint with the toe of my boot. It turned out to be made of ice."
Sergey Sogrin: "We, on the other hand, came across what we believed to be a slope glacier formed by groundwater. It was quite long and steeply descended into the valley."
Rudolf Sedov: "There was a large icy space just down the slope. The ice sparkled in the Sun."
When hydrogen burns in the air, a lot of water is produced, while toxic exhaust is zero:
2*H2 + O2 = 2*H2O + <shock wave>
Concerning Sergey Sorin. He did not believe in the Avalanche Theory. This is some of what he has to say .''What are the first impressions? The tent is set up on a safe, very gentle slope. Above it, there is no avalanche zone, since the slope flattens out and turns into a horizontal watershed of the ridge. The snow is blown away by the wind almost to the ground, covering up the unevenness. The tent withstood the wind and snowfalls for more than 20 days. People left the tent instantly under the influence of some very strong fright and fear, which haunted them for a relatively long time, since sobering up did not come in the first minutes of flight, and people went far down the slope.'' However he does say that he believes they encounted steeper and slippery conditions lower down the slope and the hikers slipped and fell and got injured. But thats him speculating.
This sounds like he is contradicting himself !
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Concerning Sergey Sogrin...
Yes, concerning Sergey Sogrin, who in March 1959 acted as a hiking consultant to Lev Ivanov, while both of them were at the Pass.
In 2020, Mr.Sogrin published a book called "What the traces told us", which described what he had seen on the Pass and to which conclusions he had come. From that book:
"In those years, many mountain expeditions came to the Pamirs. That's how I met a master of mountaineering, who was very famous at the time. However, his civilian activities were heavily classified. Even now, when he's in his 90s, he's under the care and protection of the State. Therefore, I won't disclose his name. He was involved in the development of strategic and defense systems, including those related to space exploration. In those days, it was not common to ask people about their work, especially those with such classified information. They could have suspected you of being a spy.
We were sitting by the fire on the shore of Lake Iskander Kul. We were talking about our mutual friends, the climbers, and those who had stayed in the mountains forever. I told him about the Dyatlov incident. His response stuck with me for the rest of my life.
"In those days, we used to drop the spent rocket stages in the desolate regions of the Northern Urals."
AFAIK, Sergey Sogrin gives favour to the Rocket theory. His current understanding is that a rocket had an acident and had spat a poisonous cloud over the tent. The hikers had to leave the spot quickly. However,- time was enough to all of them to breathe the poisonous stuff. As for heavy injuries, Mr.Sogrin thinks that Tibo fell from the Cedar tree his head down, Dubinina and Zolotarev had their ribs cracked by snow in the ravine, when they had been dead already.
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It is strange why Sogrin doesn't name the person that gave the information which says they dropped dropped rocket stages over the northern Urals?
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The thing is, the Northern Urals are quite extensive, approximately 1,000 km.
Rocket parts did indeed fall, but later (at least six months later) and at a shorter range than 1,000 km.
Dyatlov Pass is conventionally considered part of the Northern Urals, but in fact, it's the Middle Urals, if you look at the map.
When correspondent Vadim Chernobrov wrote that Dyatlov Pass is in the Southern Urals, Sogrini criticized it and laughed.
But you can just as easily laugh at Sogrin for not understanding anything.
Well, let's say there was an accident with a rocket. But why was there a pyramid of nine people? Why did Thibault fall and crack his skull?
If he didn't see it, then it's a figment of his imagination. Was the attack actually true? There's nothing to suggest it.
Generally, there are things you can laugh about. Sogian's situation lends itself very well to that.
Recently, there was a scandalous trial in Russia involving singer Larisa Dolinyo, and right now my screen is half-filled with all sorts of mockery and parodies.
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It is strange why Sogrin doesn't name the person that gave the information which says they dropped dropped rocket stages over the northern Urals?
It's not a big deal to find out who that person was. In one of his interviews Mr.Sogrin provided more details about that episode.
"In the mid 1970s, Ivan D. Bogachev, a master of sports from Moscow, came to Pamir in summer as an authorized representative of the USSR Sports Committee for Mountaineering. He worked at a top-secret enterprise or research institute. ... Being with Ivan on the Iskander-Kul lake in the Fan mountains, in the evening we had a conversation around the campfire about hiking, and I told him in detail the story of Dyatlov. I quote his words almost exactly -
<In the 50s, we used to drop spent rockets' stages to the Northern Urals, where they burned up entering dense layers of atmosphere. Perhaps, some parts reached the ground. Dyatlov witnessed and became a victim of such event, as he happened to be in close proximity to the burning rocket carrier. We had chosen that area because there were no houses or people for hundreds of kilometers, except for occasional local hunters who might wander into the area.>
After his words, everything fell into place and received a logical explanation for those events. This was further confirmed by the discovery of pieces of fuselage in the Northern Urals, which were clearly of rocket origin."
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I've studied the rocket launch schedule, and a rocket accident at this location in February 1959 is definitely ruled out.
This is the landing site of rockets from the cosmodrome in the Arkhangelsk region, which was launched only six months later.
This cosmodrome was actively used in the following decades, but not in the 1950s and 1959s.
A car collision is possible, but rocket launches are clearly documented.
The launch schedule for the first thousand rockets (approximately before Gagarin's flight) was declassified and published in 2010.
This information is duplicated on several websites, some of it on Wikipedia.
Sogrin is an elderly, sick man and is unable to personally verify this information online.
Printing books with such false information means wasting forests and paper.
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It is strange why Sogrin doesn't name the person that gave the information which says they dropped dropped rocket stages over the northern Urals?
It's not a big deal to find out who that person was. In one of his interviews Mr.Sogrin provided more details about that episode.
"In the mid 1970s, Ivan D. Bogachev, a master of sports from Moscow, came to Pamir in summer as an authorized representative of the USSR Sports Committee for Mountaineering. He worked at a top-secret enterprise or research institute. ... Being with Ivan on the Iskander-Kul lake in the Fan mountains, in the evening we had a conversation around the campfire about hiking, and I told him in detail the story of Dyatlov. I quote his words almost exactly -
<In the 50s, we used to drop spent rockets' stages to the Northern Urals, where they burned up entering dense layers of atmosphere. Perhaps, some parts reached the ground. Dyatlov witnessed and became a victim of such event, as he happened to be in close proximity to the burning rocket carrier. We had chosen that area because there were no houses or people for hundreds of kilometers, except for occasional local hunters who might wander into the area.>
After his words, everything fell into place and received a logical explanation for those events. This was further confirmed by the discovery of pieces of fuselage in the Northern Urals, which were clearly of rocket origin."
There are a number of quotes senior Maldonado.
Hence my question. You have taken a long time to regurgitate what has already been put forward as new information?. This was already said in in 2012 . Your argument for a rocket has always been put forward but you have added nothing new to the debate interesting as it is , the debate already exists. I was expecting something new from your protracted responses .
Many years later, in the early 70s, I met I.D. Bogachev, a master of sports in mountaineering, in the Pamirs. He worked in Moscow at some secret research institute. In the evening, by the fire on Lake Iskander Kul, we were talking about mountains and people. I told him the story of Dyatlov, to which he answered me verbatim the following: "In those years, we dropped spent stages of rocket carriers into uninhabited areas of the Northern Urals, and Dyatlov became a victim of this." It was impossible to ask more questions, he worked, as they said then, in the "box". So he said too much[.[/b]
The question remains, but seems to be strongly denied, that any flying missiles or rocket stages could have fallen in the dyatlov pass region . I still don't know your proposal, that is, if just fuel melted the ground and snow but the rocket stage landed out with the area , or the rocket stage fell close by?.
I don't know why you don't give all quotes, time lines and research the authors of said statements. The case files are the key source of information. Much of what has been said by witnesses after the event would seem to have been manipulated by the media. The media tries to sell story's , not facts.
As I understand it, your theory revolves around a space rocket stage flying over the tent but not landing. Various chemicals dispersed in the air making the snow wet ( I don't know if you mean the fuel ignited and caused snow to melt that created the prints and Ice field or the liquid melted the snow and it is this that caused the footprints?)
I don't know if your argument is that they started the fire at the cedar and this caused an explosion that broke ribs and the wind burn on the trees that ivanov thought he saw.
Please just say it how it is because it's like pulling teeth . Long and drawn out .
What pieces of fuselage were found of rocket design were found in the northern Urals?
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you have taken a long time to regurgitate
you have added nothing new
your protracted responses
you don't give all quotes, time lines and research
it's like pulling teeth, long and drawn out
You sound grumpy and a little agressive. Is the life hard? Ballantine's 0.25 should help. Cheers! wink1
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you have taken a long time to regurgitate
you have added nothing new
your protracted responses
you don't give all quotes, time lines and research
it's like pulling teeth, long and drawn out
You sound grumpy and a little agressive. Is the life hard? Ballantine's 0.25 should help. Cheers! wink1
Thanks , I'll give it a try whilst I wait for you to post a coherent explanation of your missile theory . It might make my life less hard.
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Concerning Sergey Sogrin...
Yes, concerning Sergey Sogrin, who in March 1959 acted as a hiking consultant to Lev Ivanov, while both of them were at the Pass.
In 2020, Mr.Sogrin published a book called "What the traces told us", which described what he had seen on the Pass and to which conclusions he had come. From that book:
"In those years, many mountain expeditions came to the Pamirs. That's how I met a master of mountaineering, who was very famous at the time. However, his civilian activities were heavily classified. Even now, when he's in his 90s, he's under the care and protection of the State. Therefore, I won't disclose his name. He was involved in the development of strategic and defense systems, including those related to space exploration. In those days, it was not common to ask people about their work, especially those with such classified information. They could have suspected you of being a spy.
We were sitting by the fire on the shore of Lake Iskander Kul. We were talking about our mutual friends, the climbers, and those who had stayed in the mountains forever. I told him about the Dyatlov incident. His response stuck with me for the rest of my life.
"In those days, we used to drop the spent rocket stages in the desolate regions of the Northern Urals."
AFAIK, Sergey Sogrin gives favour to the Rocket theory. His current understanding is that a rocket had an acident and had spat a poisonous cloud over the tent. The hikers had to leave the spot quickly. However,- time was enough to all of them to breathe the poisonous stuff. As for heavy injuries, Mr.Sogrin thinks that Tibo fell from the Cedar tree his head down, Dubinina and Zolotarev had their ribs cracked by snow in the ravine, when they had been dead already.
But there was no evidence of poisonous substances found at the ~Dyatlov site. And no evidence of rocket parts. The injuries to Dubinina in particular were too serious to have been caused by snow in the ravine. The Northern Urals cover a huge area of about 130,000 square miles. The Urals are one of the most fascinating places on Earth.
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The thing is, the Northern Urals are quite extensive, approximately 1,000 km.
Rocket parts did indeed fall, but later (at least six months later) and at a shorter range than 1,000 km.
Dyatlov Pass is conventionally considered part of the Northern Urals, but in fact, it's the Middle Urals, if you look at the map.
When correspondent Vadim Chernobrov wrote that Dyatlov Pass is in the Southern Urals, Sogrini criticized it and laughed.
But you can just as easily laugh at Sogrin for not understanding anything.
Well, let's say there was an accident with a rocket. But why was there a pyramid of nine people? Why did Thibault fall and crack his skull?
If he didn't see it, then it's a figment of his imagination. Was the attack actually true? There's nothing to suggest it.
Generally, there are things you can laugh about. Sogian's situation lends itself very well to that.
Recently, there was a scandalous trial in Russia involving singer Larisa Dolinyo, and right now my screen is half-filled with all sorts of mockery and parodies.
The Urals are one of the wonders of the World. And over 1 million square miles. The Dyatlov site covers about 1 square mile.
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I've studied the rocket launch schedule, and a rocket accident at this location in February 1959 is definitely ruled out.
This is the landing site of rockets from the cosmodrome in the Arkhangelsk region, which was launched only six months later.
This cosmodrome was actively used in the following decades, but not in the 1950s and 1959s.
A car collision is possible, but rocket launches are clearly documented.
The launch schedule for the first thousand rockets (approximately before Gagarin's flight) was declassified and published in 2010.
This information is duplicated on several websites, some of it on Wikipedia.
Sogrin is an elderly, sick man and is unable to personally verify this information online.
Printing books with such false information means wasting forests and paper.
Yes its highly unlikely that any rockets passed over the Dyatlov site either deliberately or accidentally. Sogrin is one of many people involved in one way or another who have voiced their opinion on what may have happened at the Dyatlov site.
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The injuries to Dubinina in particular were too serious to have been caused by snow in the ravine.
Completely true. Talking about injuries of the Ravine-4 hikers we cannot avoid the explosion topic, since neither a pile of snow nor a group of people can cause those injuries which they had. Lev Ivanov almost openly points us to the explosion:
"It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst."
Ballon is always a volume. And Ivanov's statement says to us that:
1) An explosion took place indeed.
2) It was a kind of thermobaric explosion, when a big volume of flamable stuff burns in the air.
Shock wave from the explosion threw the hikers on the rocks in the creek and pressed them against the rocks.
And no evidence of rocket parts.
Why does evacuatioin team need to leave any rocket parts on the spot? Their mission is to find a fallen rocket stage and get it to the factory, where developers would inspect it thoroughly. If some parts are missing, they probably will not be able to understand why their product collapsed.
Secondly, why do you think that it must be many parts? A rocket stage may land as a single unit, and if it is light enough, it may be taken by helicopter. In our case, the stage obviously leaked its tanks out, thus the rocket's body was not heavy.
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@sarapuk
A small addition about rockets' parts -- yesterday's finding of a part of the rocket launched recently. It doesn't look like this big part produced a lot of small parts that were hard to find. The major damage to the environment are broken trees. However, on the slope of the 1079 mountain there are no trees.
https://science.mail.ru/news/42093-v-yakutii-nashli-fragment-otdelyayuschejsya-chasti-raketyi-nositelya/?frommail=1&md=1
(https://i.ibb.co/YFsg2Svy/Stage.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ycj20CLY)
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The injuries to Dubinina in particular were too serious to have been caused by snow in the ravine.
Completely true. Talking about injuries of the Ravine-4 hikers we cannot avoid the explosion topic, since neither a pile of snow nor a group of people can cause those injuries which they had. Lev Ivanov almost openly points us to the explosion:
"It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst."
Ballon is always a volume. And Ivanov's statement says to us that:
1) An explosion took place indeed.
2) It was a kind of thermobaric explosion, when a big volume of flamable stuff burns in the air.
Shock wave from the explosion threw the hikers on the rocks in the creek and pressed them against the rocks.
And no evidence of rocket parts.
Why does evacuatioin team need to leave any rocket parts on the spot? Their mission is to find a fallen rocket stage and get it to the factory, where developers would inspect it thoroughly. If some parts are missing, they probably will not be able to understand why their product collapsed.
Secondly, why do you think that it must be many parts? A rocket stage may land as a single unit, and if it is light enough, it may be taken by helicopter. In our case, the stage obviously leaked its tanks out, thus the rocket's body was not heavy.
Shock wave couldn't cause the sort of injuries that were suffered by at least 2 of the group, especially Dubinina.
No reports of any kind of rocket parts found at the site.
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Shock wave couldn't cause the sort of injuries that were suffered by at least 2 of the group, especially Dubinina.
Indeed? Here you are going to contradict forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy, who not only saw the bodies but also did autopsy in 1959. I hope you have very strong arguments against the doctor Vozrozhdenniy's conclusion.
Question: How is it possible to explain the cause of the damage to Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Is it possible to combine them into one cause?
Answer: I think the character of the injuries on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multiple fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had hemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force, similar to the example used for Thibeaux-Brignolle. These injuries, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb.
No reports of any kind of rocket parts found at the site.
I would suggest to replace "no reports" with "few reports", as we do have some. Vladimir Korotaev mentioned that Stepan Kurikov had found an unknown metallic sheet over there. Also, another local habitant, Mr. Epanichnikov, had found one more part of something big and metallic in the area of interest. All these relates to 1959. And there were later findings as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/spSc4Dp4/Rocket-parts.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Shock wave couldn't cause the sort of injuries that were suffered by at least 2 of the group, especially Dubinina.
Indeed? Here you are going to contradict forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy, who not only saw the bodies but also did autopsy in 1959. I hope you have very strong arguments against the doctor Vozrozhdenniy's conclusion.
Question: How is it possible to explain the cause of the damage to Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Is it possible to combine them into one cause?
Answer: I think the character of the injuries on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multiple fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had hemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force, similar to the example used for Thibeaux-Brignolle. These injuries, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb.
No reports of any kind of rocket parts found at the site.
I would suggest to replace "no reports" with "few reports", as we do have some. Vladimir Korotaev mentioned that Stepan Kurikov had found an unknown metallic sheet over there. Also, another local habitant, Mr. Epanichnikov, had found one more part of something big and metallic in the area of interest. All these relates to 1959. And there were later findings as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/spSc4Dp4/Rocket-parts.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Similar to is not a definite statement of what caused the injury or injuries. The word means what it says. No known rocket parts were found any where near the site of the incident.
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Similar to is not a definite statement of what caused the injury or injuries. The word means what it says.
When the forensic expert said "are very similar", for me it means that if Ivanov had found signs of explosion near 1079, the expert would have not been surprised at all. The explosion would have fitted what he had found inspecting the bodies. Please note, that Ivanov had started to look for explosion's signs about 20 days before Vozrozhdenniy told him about shock wave. It means that Ivanov had other reasons to suspect that something had been blasted at DP. That's why I cannnot understand why you say that "Shock wave couldn't cause the sort of injuries". What could cause that sort of injuries then?
No known rocket parts were found any where near the site of the incident.
Yes. So what? The DPI is a mystery. One cannot expect to have both at the same time: a mystery and a rocket's wing protruding from snow. There is no easy way to solve the mystery of DPI. Until another cause of DPI is completely proved, Rocket theory has full right to be considered.
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Similar to is not a definite statement of what caused the injury or injuries. The word means what it says.
When the forensic expert said "are very similar", for me it means that if Ivanov had found signs of explosion near 1079, the expert would have not been surprised at all. The explosion would have fitted what he had found inspecting the bodies. Please note, that Ivanov had started to look for explosion's signs about 20 days before Vozrozhdenniy told him about shock wave. It means that Ivanov had other reasons to suspect that something had been blasted at DP. That's why I cannnot understand why you say that "Shock wave couldn't cause the sort of injuries". What could cause that sort of injuries then?
No known rocket parts were found any where near the site of the incident.
Yes. So what? The DPI is a mystery. One cannot expect to have both at the same time: a mystery and a rocket's wing protruding from snow. There is no easy way to solve the mystery of DPI. Until another cause of DPI is completely proved, Rocket theory has full right to be considered.
All theories can be considered. Some maybe more than others ! If a blast was responsible for the demise of the group how come bodies were found in various locations and positions with some injuries that were very unusual.
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If a blast was responsible for the demise of the group how come bodies were found in various locations and positions with some injuries that were very unusual.
It is important to understand that the blast killed only Ravine-4 hikers. Those hikers were the only ones who managed to keep alive till then. All other hikers had been either dead or unconscious by the time of the blast. Many people think that a rocket should explode immediately when it hits the ground. Probably, for most cases that is true. But DPI is different -- the blast had happened IN A FEW HOURS after the rocket bumped the slope. We can recall Evgeniy Okishev words from his 2013 interview:
"Shortly before that we met with a worker of one of the prison camps in the North Urals. He described strange flashes of light which he and his wife saw late that evening on their way home from the cinema. The light came from the direction of the supposed accident with the hikers. We also received evidence from other local residents, and all of them spoke about a similar phenomenon".
So, local residents saw the flash from the explosion late in the evening, while the hikers ran from their tent early in the evening (they had not finished to change their clothes after climbing the slope and had not started their evening meal). That gives 3-4 hrs gap between the rocket's landing and the blast.
For the hikers, who were not Ravine-4, cause of their death was not the blast. It was hypothermia. You may object that hypothermia does not work that fast, so people get dead within 3-4 hrs. And you will be right, if we consider natural environments. But we should keep in mind that typical rockets' fuel components are cryogenic liquids -- LOX, LH2, etс. If there is a leakage of such stuff from a tank, it boils and evaporates mixing with air. Air temperature that in winter is low by itself, on getting cryogenic add-on might become EXTREMELY LOW. We remember that winds of the Pass blow from top of the slope downhill, the direction of the Cedar tree and the Ravine. Any attempt to return from the Cedar tree to the tent means that hikers have to get closer to the rocket's leaking tanks and face extremely low temperatures. Thus hypothermia would develop very quickly. Zina, Rustem, and Igor attempted to return, and they got frozen in dynamic poses.
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Yes, the ravine4 died of different injuries than the ones who died of hypothermia, but we should also keep in mind YuriK’s terrible leg burns. Pain from burns is extreme and it is suggested he bit off his finger in his attempt to bear the pain. So yes, the end results was probably hypothermic death, but the burns played a significant role.
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Yes, the ravine4 died of different injuries than the ones who died of hypothermia, but we should also keep in mind YuriK’s terrible leg burns. Pain from burns is extreme and it is suggested he bit off his finger in his attempt to bear the pain. So yes, the end results was probably hypothermic death, but the burns played a significant role.
I guess that Krivonischenko received his burns not from the Cedar's tree fire. All hikers reached the Cedar tree together. Other hikers would not had allowed him to put his leg in the flame and receive the burns. In my view he received the burns, when he tried to approach the fallen rocket's stage at the very beginning of the incident. Working rocket's engine is a good source of heat. It's also possible that they were beta burns, since a mysterios beta emmiter might had arrived with the rocket.
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I agree he did not put his leg in the fire.
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An experimental rocket of this type probably can be considered as a candidate for hard landing at DP in 1959.
(https://i.ibb.co/nsH2kvY2/NTP-project.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Jwcy5Zc)
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The idea of a meteor is kinda intriguing. I don't exactly know, why you switched from discussing that to missiles and rockets, but here we are. For better clarity, I'll tackle the meteor first and the missiles in a second post (making it easier, if an admin wants to cut the thread).
So here we go. The meteor:
I've seen pictures of Tunguska and the video of Chelyabinsk. I think, one of the main questions would be, where the supposed meteor exploded, as in height above ground and position relative to the map. You'd need a combination that results in
- far enough away from the tree line, that there are no trees seriously harmed by the shockwave
- near enough to the tent, that it's plausible for the hikers to be out to relieve themselves
- far enough from the tent, that the shockwave wouldn't damage it
- near enough for the hikers outside to receive said injuries
Adding to the position of the explosion, there's the strength of it. It'd be interesting to have a simulation including those four variables to play around...
The timeline drawn out by citizentom leaves some questions to me, that is:
- Considering the group expected to be attacked, it is plausible that they fled. But expecting to flee for an unknown time, I'd have grabbed clothes. Even considering that they may have had a concussion from the explosion, I believe it's rather unlikely that they just stormed off into the night, not taking jackets or blankets.
Why wouldn't they have taken blankets and clothes, at least after establishing, there was no immediate danger nearby? - Even considering the atmosphere of the cold war: They were in the middle of nowhere. Why would they think, anyone would attack them specifically or the uninhabited area they were in? The only way, an enemy bomb (publicly known at that time) could have reached the area would have been by plane. Could an approaching meteor be mistaken as an airplane, soundwise?
- Not a question, but still: They were experienced hikers. They knew the ural mountains in winter. They knew the cold there and I'm sure they knew about the effects of cold to fingers, hands, feet, legs and so on. I can't believe someone would put a burning peace of wood, no matter how much it has extinguished to the state of embers, to their leg, especially since this would include the danger of putting their own clothes on fire.
In principle I think, it's a fascinating idea, but the particulars in A how different people and objects were affected by the supposed blast and B how the hikers acted doesn't add up (by now). That is just my feeling, but be free to provide calculations and proof as to what effects one specific blast strength would have.
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Part 2: The missile or rocket
I personally don't believe either a missile or a rocket to be the culprit, so I concentrate on pointing to aspects that don't add up, either in argumentation or in how things would affect other aspects.
Let's assume there was a rocket stage that fell on the mountain:
Where did it fall, so that the hikers would have seen the need to evacuate their tent?
Why did they find it necessary to leave the tent? (Where did the poisonous cloud come from if the fumes where not toxic? Senor Maldonado states both things!)
Why did they leave the tent fast enough that they couldn't bring more clothes but went down the slope slowly? (It's stated the prints suggest slow descend.)
When, where and how were they injured? Assuming they were injured when the rocket stage landed: How did they come down the slope? Assuming they already were down be the forest: Why were they there? In any case: Why did the group split up?
Senor Maldonado suggests that the burned leg was caused by the rocket stage when it was still hot. Why was he there, if there was supposedly a toxic cloud around the area? Why did he have time to go there yet they didn't have time to get proper gear out of their tent? Did he go there later? Then why? Why alone?
If the rocket didn't explode right away, why did the supposed cryogenic liquids result in some freezing to death faster than the others, but the ravine 4 managed to survive that part? Why were they in the ravine? Why did the explosion reach them there?
Back to the leg burn, which was suggested could also have been caused by a beta emitter: Why is the burned area just the leg, nothing more? The autopsy report states, that the underpants on that leg show signs of burning, which is not consistent to beta emitters. More of: beta radiation is stopped by relatively thin layers of things. Considering, he didn't leave with torn underpants in the first place, those should have provided safety from beta radiation burns.
Why should Tibo have climbed the cedar in that scenario?
There's so much that's in itself contradicting...
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An experimental rocket of this type probably can be considered as a candidate for hard landing at DP in 1959.
(https://i.ibb.co/nsH2kvY2/NTP-project.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Jwcy5Zc)
(https://i.ibb.co/m56JYmmZ/NTP-project.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60gYp229)
I have added some marks to your article, the blue ones, which state that although the idea was already there in the late 1950s, the main research came later and it was during that later time, when the practical aspects were addressed and the first prototype was build. So it's highly improbable that this kind of rocket was the culprit for the demise of the dyatlovites...
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I have added some marks to your article, the blue ones, which state that although the idea was already there in the late 1950s, the main research came later and it was during that later time, when the practical aspects were addressed and the first prototype was build. So it's highly improbable that this kind of rocket was the culprit for the demise of the dyatlovites...
First, I want to say that what I suggest is just a theory, and as it cannot be proved 100% there might be different options within it.
Yes, USSR had been attempting to create robust nuclear rocket engine for decades, and that is understandable. It is not possible to jump from nothing to a fully industrial nuclear engine immediately. Very long and hard work is required to reach this goal. Nobody expects that USSR had rocket engine powered by nuclear reactor already in 1959. However, much simpler experemental models could have come already. In a simple scenario you still have traditional chemical rocket, but you add radioactive material to preheat chemical components of its fuel, which are probably cryogenic.
(https://i.ibb.co/J6c3H49/4-concepts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vycXkGS)
Another simple approach is to build radioisotope engine, which uses thermal energy of natural decay of an isotope. Such engine has obvious drawbacks, but they are not so critical if you put the engine in an upper stage. Upper stage starts when it is in cosmos already, where engine's thrust is not significant and main benefit is high specific impulse.
I also believe that conceptualy new rocket engine cannot be designed on paper only. In this case it will fly on paper only as well. At each step you need to make experiments to select best way to proceed. E.g. you need to define which isotope you will use in the final model. and for that you need to try many of them in practice.
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Where did the poisonous cloud come from if the fumes where not toxic? Senor Maldonado states both things!
Why should Tibo have climbed the cedar in that scenario?
It would be interesting to see, where I stated that. Perhaps, you refer to Sergey Sogrin's view of the events. Mr. Sogrin indeed says that the tent was affected by poisonous cloud (nitric acid evaporations, if I remember correctly) from the R-12 missile. Thibo, according to him, climbed high on the Cedar tree, fell, and cracked his skull against the tree's protruding roots. But that is Mr.Sogrin's theory, not mine! I consider nuclear powered rocket with environmentally friendly LH2 in the tanks, although H2 mixed with air burns like hell. Thibo in my theory is a victim of explosion, which caught him and 3 more hikers in the ravine.
You are obviously right about Krivonischenko's burns. They are not beta burns. It's clear that not only his body was burnt, but also pants and underpants. But it also means that he received the burns not in a fire near the Cedar tree. Even if he had been desperate to warm his leg directly in the fire, he would have put off his pants, underpants, the sock before stretching the leg into flame. The hikers were short with clothes, why should he destroy his frost protection?
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Of course it's just a theory. I believe, we won't get more than a theory that far away from the actual time the incident happened. But even a theory should be sound and not contradicting itself. That's why I tried to show all details contradicting each other.
I do agree, that there's not only concepts on paper and then there's a functional engine. Yet, the first prototype, according to your excerpt (you might want to share its source?) was much later than 1959. I do agree that there were probably models tested or experiments with parts of the components. But those would have been either small scale or at the direct vicinity of the research institution, not far away in the Urals. If they were real life size, they would've called it a prototype.
I believe you refer to the radioisotope rocket, when you say radioisotope engine? I couldn't find that specific combination of words. I also couldn't find a hint that there were other developers than one in the USA, which in my opinion doesn't mean much. Do you have any sources that hint to the USSR experimenting with those? Referring to the research in the USA it's said however, that it was during the 1960s, so too late.
You are right, I read the summery you provided of Sogrin's statement and took it for your words. Then, if you don't suggest the hikers left intoxicated and in a rush to flee the gases, what do you think was the reason for their hurried abandoning of the tent area? And if they were not intoxicated, what made them pick those horrible choices as to leave their equipment behind?
Still, I'm not sure how those in the ravine would have been that much affected by the assumed explosion. Shouldn't the layout of the land have provided them with protection against a shockwave?
And finally: If we agree, that Krivonischenko's burns are not from a beta emitter and not from the fire by the cedar: What caused them, according to your theory?
Please understand, I'm trying to understand what you suggest happened.
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Missi, you ask very valid questions, and I hope I will manage to answer at least majority of them.
you might want to share its source?
The source is this article:
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1200421/
The first prototype, according to your excerpt was much later than 1959. I do agree that there were probably models tested or experiments with parts of the components.
The article talks about nuclear engines with reactors. These are advanced models that can handle engine's thrust. I fully agree that their prototypes came later than 1959. For DPI I consider much simpler engine, which is powered by radioisotope's natural decay and cannot handle thrust at all -- it works non-stop and cannot accelerate or brake. To build such engine is much easier than to build engine with a reactor. Basically, you need a container with radioisotope and a pump which runs LH2 through the container. The implementation and radioisotope selections could be like that (1 - H2 tubes; 2 - isotope's container, 3 - nozzle):
(https://i.ibb.co/C33jnXJj/Pic-2.gif) (https://ibb.co/1ttC9psC)
(https://i.ibb.co/v4BNm8YC/Pic-1.gif) (https://ibb.co/VYNFD8m0)
if you don't suggest the hikers left intoxicated and in a rush to flee the gases, what do you think was the reason for their hurried abandoning of the tent area? And if they were not intoxicated, what made them pick those horrible choices as to leave their equipment behind?
In short, I think that when the rocket bumped the slope, all hikers were inside the tent. The rocket did not explode, but on falling from cosmic hight it produced something like an earthquake, which collapsed northern part of the tent and piled up some amount of snow on it. The natural action in that situation would be to leave the collapsed tent asap. So the cuts were made, and all hikers escaped through them. But they did not run immediately downhill. While most of the hikers grouped at about 7-8 meters from the tent, one or two guys returned to the tent and strated inspecting it with a torch. At the same time, two other guys, Krivonischenko and Doroshenko, were sent to investigate the fallen object, which created all that mess. It was key to understanbd what had arrived from sky and what were the risks. On approaching the object (rocket), they were affected by cryogenic H2 and extreme heat from isotope's container (or burning H2). They signaled the rest to retreat immedeatly, and all the group started descent to the forest.
I'm not sure how those in the ravine would have been that much affected by the assumed explosion. Shouldn't the layout of the land have provided them with protection against a shockwave?
The ravine is right in front of the treeline, which means it is not protected by the trees. It is not deep at all. Shock wave from an air explosion, which happens at certain height, would reach the ravine's bottom no problem.
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I believe the ravine is side on to any blast coming from the tent direction and the ravine in question has a number of trees Infront of it to perhaps a distance of over 100 meters before we get to the ravine . There are trees before the ravine and the ravine would act as protection if they were in it. There is also a line of trees ( spruce I think) close to where Zina was found that would be in the direct path of any shock wave . We also have the Mansi chum photo that shows a free standing construction that wasn't blown over. Why would all these trees not be damaged?.
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The same goes for the den. The shock wave will throw the hikers off and not even touch the den a few meters away? And will it line up the hikers in a row on one square meter?
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Thank you, Senior Maldonado. And also thanks for the link. I'll try to look into it, as well as the explanation about the rocket part.
Relating to the evacuation of the tent:
Something I can't judge, because I lack any experience in winter hiking, is the effect the impact would have had. I'm reasonable sure, the earth would react and one would feel it. But would it feel similar to an earthquake? Similar to an avalanche? Would a mountain hiker consider that feeling as sign or maybe possible cause for an avalanche? If so, the escaping could be seem indeed necessary as soon as possible and the cutting of the tent may be reasonable, because once in the forest, one can cope by building shelters. If there was not the feeling of imminent danger, no sane person would have cut open the tent in the middle of a storm on a mountain with days away from other people. In the end, this is a point, I think, we can't prove wrong or right, because we can't ask how they judged the situation and the danger.
I can only say, that, camping in summer, I'm always very reluctant of leaving my tent to evacuate, when there's a storm, even if it's not in the middle of nowhere and I'm not about to freeze when stepping outside. But then again, there's no danger of avalanches there.
Relating to the ravine:
According to Teddy, you have to move through the ravine to get to the cedar. That means, at least the bigger part of the forest is not shielding the ravine from possible blasts. Some sketches and drawn maps show trees between ravine and tent. I don't know, I've never been there and especially I haven't been there back then. It might have changed by now.
I was rather referring to how a blast wave travels and that it might not be possible to get into a ravine. That was indeed a question or maybe a suggestion, because I simply don't know. I'm also not sure if it might be possible to duck close to the nearer edge to get cover from a blast when waiting for it to arrive, after witnessing the light from an explosion. I do somehow doubt however, that injuries as bad as found by the pathologist would have been acquired inside the ravine. Open for proof however. :)
And then there's what SURI and Ziljoe suggested: How would it be possible, that all trees in the vicinity weren't affected at all, if the blast wave was SO hard, it caused that much injury on the hikers?
Plus: Where did it happen, that it didn't leave marks on the tent?
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I believe the ravine is side on to any blast coming from the tent direction and the ravine in question has a number of trees Infront of it to perhaps a distance of over 100 meters before we get to the ravine . There are trees before the ravine and the ravine would act as protection if they were in it. There is also a line of trees ( spruce I think) close to where Zina was found that would be in the direct path of any shock wave . We also have the Mansi chum photo that shows a free standing construction that wasn't blown over. Why would all these trees not be damaged?.
Ziljoe, I wonder where you see tree protection for the ravine in 1959?
(https://i.ibb.co/cWz1Frb/Ravine-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XnmbsCy)
On next picture I will try to illustrate where the rocket landed and where the cloud of H2 had exploded.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ncmstqr/1079.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s862b4C)
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The same goes for the den. The shock wave will throw the hikers off and not even touch the den a few meters away? And will it line up the hikers in a row on one square meter?
What do you expect to hapрen with the den? The den had been already laying at the bottom of the ravine. The shock wave mostly acted from UP to DOWN. Thus the den could be pressed deeper into snow only. Probably, that was the case.
Talking about 4 hikers in the ravine -
The shock wave did not send them into long flight for dozens of meters. It kicked them down to the bottom of the ravine, leaving their heels where they were. It's important that Thibo's skull and Ludmila's & Semyon's ribs were not cracked directly by the wave. The bones were cracked by hard landing on the creek's rocks. The rocks were partially covered by snow. Where a body met a rock, it was a crack. Where a body met snow, there was nothing.
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Sorry Senior Maldonado , I was assuming the blast was from the crashed rocket close to the tent. As I understand it , the rocket fell from orbit releasing gas or fuel on its way down . 30 minutes later there is the explosion from this gas cloud which I would think is 360 degrees or ultimately in every direction.
I would expect multiple broken branches and a layer of needles and at least twigs at the time of the explosion. This layer of debris would have shown up with the discovery of the clothing and twigs in May would it not?
If you say the cracks and injuries occurred from the impact with the ground then that differs from the blast wave implied by the doctor , I think the autopsy says injuries caused by , fall, crush or squeeze. I think a shock wave t or air blast causes different damage .
In the photo of the ravine you show , many of the shrubs and small trees are buried by the snow in that photo which means 3 meters of snow was drifted into a basically empty ravine in the 3 weeks of the incident . All the hikers would have suffered the blast would they not?
What happened to the crashed rocket out of interest?
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The rocket fell from orbit releasing gas or fuel on its way down . 30 minutes later there is the explosion from this gas cloud which I would think is 360 degrees or ultimately in every direction.
Ziljoe, let me comment on this.
I think that the rocket was 3-stage, and the upper stage was experimental LH2 radioisotope stage. It was expected that the 3rd stage got to an orbit, where it would be flying powered by its primitive nuclear engine. But it had never reached the orbit. Something went wrong, and instead of flying up, the 3rd stage crashed to the Earth. As the 3rd stage never started, it had full tanks of LH2. Isolated in tanks, hydrogen cannot explode, it needs oxydizer for that. So, an explosion did not happen when the rocket touched the ground. However, the tanks were leaking, H2 penetrated the air and was dragged by the wind the direction of the forest and the ravine. The explosion happened not in 30 min, but in 3-4 hours after the rocket had landed. The hikers had time to descend to the Cedar tree, to light a fire, to make a den.
Sure, when H2 cloud blasts in the air, shock wave goes 360 degrees. And it is important that shock wave from such a blast is not like shock wave from exploding a bomb! But here we come to explosions theory, which is a separate topic.
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What happened to the crashed rocket out of interest?
Evaquation team came to the DP in the next few days after the incident. They took the crashed stage and at the same time discovered the empty and collapsed hiker's tent. Since evaquation team is supposed to evaquate rockets' parts and not corpses, they did not even attempt to find the bodies. They reported their finding to headquarters, and it was further reported to Moscow. And Moscow started shadow criminal case, asking local residents (like Mr. Popov), if they know anything.
Or do you think better idea was to leave the rocket to Mansi?
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Okay, I hadn't completely grasped, what you build up here.
Let me get that straight:
The group is inside the tent. The rocket stage crashes close by. The hikers leave the tent in panic, because they think, there's an avalanche or an earthquake. While some still grab some equipment, some go and investigate. Finally they move down the slope, while a cloud of hydrogen builds up from the damaged tanks of liquid hydrogen.
Then what? The ravine 4 were in the ravine, where they were hit by the blast? Why weren't the others with them, if the den seemed to be a good shelter? Why did someone climb that damned tree? Shouldn't the blast have popped their eardrums, if - as you suggest - it was bad enough to pop their eyes? Taking it there was a storm going on, would there even be a cloud of hydrogen? Why did it explode in the first place? If the crash site of the rocket stage was near enough to affect the snow as much that the hikers decide to abandon the tent, why was the tent not ripped to shreds by the explosion? Why weren't there any signs of smoldering on it?
There was a part I wanted to add about the evacuation of the rocket stage, but I can't think of it right now. Maybe it will come to me again later...
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The group is inside the tent. The rocket stage crashes close by. The hikers leave the tent in panic, because they think, there's an avalanche or an earthquake. While some still grab some equipment, some go and investigate. Finally they move down the slope, while a cloud of hydrogen builds up from the damaged tanks of liquid hydrogen.
Yes, this is how I see it. The tent has no windows. When it collapses, there is no way to see from inside what happened outside, people feel like trapped in a sack. The only desire should be to get out asap. When they are inside it is not possible to understand what the danger is -- avalanche, earthquake, meteor, etc. When the hikers got out, they recognized that the mess was triggered by an object, which had fallen from sky. Next action is to evaluate what threat it incurs. Two scouts were sent to investigate the object better -- Krivonischenko and Doroshenko. That were their footprints that kept separately at the beginning.
Then what? The ravine 4 were in the ravine, where they were hit by the blast?
Yes, the ravine 4 were hit by the blast, when they started emergency retreat from the den down the creek. But that was the very last episode of the DPI.
Why weren't the others with them, if the den seemed to be a good shelter?
When the den was being constructed, two Yuris lay dead under the Cedar tree. Three more hikers (Zina, Rustem, Igor) lay dead or uncoscious on their way back to the tent.
Why did someone climb that damned tree?
There is no proof that anybody climbed the tree. A torn off branch was observed at about 5m height, but it is not clear what happened with the branch.
Shouldn't the blast have popped their eardrums, if - as you suggest - it was bad enough to pop their eyes?
Not all shock waves tear eardrums. To do that, front of the wave should be really strong. It is more typical for shock waves from bombs and shells to tear eardrums and also arms and legs.
Taking it there was a storm going on, would there even be a cloud of hydrogen?
Maybe, a cloud was not formed in a usual sense. We can talk about hydrogen concentration in the air. Concentration of 4% is enough to lead to volumetric explosion, if source of ignition is present.
Why did it explode in the first place?
Something ignited the cloud -- sparkle from the fire at the Cedar tree, strike of a match, short circuit in the rocket's equipment...
If the crash site of the rocket stage was near enough to affect the snow as much that the hikers decide to abandon the tent, why was the tent not ripped to shreds by the explosion? Why weren't there any signs of smoldering on it?
Rocket's stage crash site and explosion's epicenter are two different spots with a good distance between them. H2 was dragged by wind away from the rocket, and the highest concentration was formed far away from the rocket and the tent. At the moment of explosion the tent lay collapsed, its 80% buried under snow, the wave was not able to damage it.
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Okay, now I think, I know a little better, what you suggest. Let me ask some questions.
The separated footprints, didn't they go downhill? Does that mean, you think the rocket stage crashed somewhere downhill? How could it be responsible for snow on the tent?
(Plus I myself can not imaging cutting my tent, even if it collapses on top of me, but that's a different aspect.)
So the ravine 4 tried to retreat from the den. Where to? What had happened to the others by then? Why did they separate? Why did Zina, Igor and Rustem try to go back up the hill?
There is mentioning of someone climbing the tree:
Maslennikov
”The lower dry branches of the cedar were broken up to 2 m high. Somebody climbed the tree, because the branches 4 or 5 m high were also broken.”
And I thought I read somewhere, that traces of skin or something were found on the cedar, but I can't find that one right now, so maybe I imagined that...
So what do you suggest happened to the branch?
About the eyes, it seems, that it would be possible to have a blast that doesn't hurt the ears but the eyes get hurt even though by shrapnel. So you might have a point there...
About the cloud: I don't care what exact form you imagine. I think that's rather beside the point. Relevant is: Where do you think the aggregation of gas would build up? And yes, if it is enough, it's possible that heat or a spark would ignite it. But: If it's ignited by heat of the crashed rocket, the gas must be near enough. If it's ignited by the fire by the cedar, it must be close enough to said fire. And if it is, I would imaging, that it'd singe the Yuris as well as some trees.
I very well can imagine the gas cloud being far enough away from the tent not to hurt that and far away from the cedar not to hurt the trees there. But then the central point of ignition can't be near the tent or the fire at the cedar. And if it can't be close to the tent but was ignited by the rocket somehow, then the rocket too must have been quite some distance away from the tent. Leading back to the question why its crash influenced the area of the tent that much, that the hikers left it in panic, even if they couldn't see what was happening outside. We have to keep in mind, that that tent was somewhat of their lifeline, their lifesaver in an ocean of snow and cold and loneliness.
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And I thought I read somewhere, that traces of skin or something were found on the cedar, but I can't find that one right now, so maybe I imagined that...
You have read that in Lev Ivanov's article "Mystery of the fireballs":
"On the bark of the tree there were frozen (it’s scary to even say it!) their skin of their inner thighs and scraps of underwear. All this covered the cedar bark."
However, we do not have evidence from anybody else on the subject. And it's highly unlikely that Ivanov found that biological material at 5m height. I doubt he climbed that high. So, it leaves us a question mark what happed with the upper branch. Of course, it could be torn off by a hiker, who climbed there. It also could be torn off by weight of snow, which accumulated on it. Or maybe that was result of the blast. For me that branch is just minor thing which gives us nothing, as we are lacking evidence.
Does that mean, you think the rocket stage crashed somewhere downhill? How could it be responsible for snow on the tent?
Where do you think the aggregation of gas would build up?
No, in my theory the rocket's stage crash spot was higher than the tent's level. It was either almost at the top of the ridge or even at the other side of the slope close to the ridge. I want once again drag your attention to the photo taken by Lev Ivanov in May 1959.
(https://i.ibb.co/gLFGXnLs/1079.jpg) (https://ibb.co/39Yw8J9t)
You can see on the slope a kind of dark river, which runs from the ridge and gets wider. It ends up with a kind of dark lake at the bottom of the slope. I think this "river" represents a path along which gas from the rocket advanced towards the forest. The main aggregation of the gas was above "the lake", and that was the epicenter. The hikers footprints got preserved at the intersection of their path down and the gas' path towards the forest.
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And I thought I read somewhere, that traces of skin or something were found on the cedar, but I can't find that one right now, so maybe I imagined that...
You have read that in Lev Ivanov's article "Mystery of the fireballs":
"On the bark of the tree there were frozen (it’s scary to even say it!) their skin of their inner thighs and scraps of underwear. All this covered the cedar bark."
However, we do not have evidence from anybody else on the subject. And it's highly unlikely that Ivanov found that biological material at 5m height. I doubt he climbed that high. So, it leaves us a question mark what happed with the upper branch. Of course, it could be torn off by a hiker, who climbed there. It also could be torn off by weight of snow, which accumulated on it. Or maybe that was result of the blast. For me that branch is just minor thing which gives us nothing, as we are lacking evidence.
You're right, that was the source of my memory. Good, it was interfering with Teddy's theory as well. So we can scrap that part.
Concerning the other part of your post:
I believe, there were about 300m from the tent to the top of the ridge. Would that be enough for your rocket stage to land and your theory all together?
If the stage landed on the other side of the ridge, would the gas really been blown over the ridge and down the other side? Is that plausible?
Why did the gas meander down and not go straight? Doesn't the wind blow straight down the hill?
And what about the point of crash? Wouldn't there be damage to the stone, if the stage crashed near the top of the ridge? There are usually areas in which the snow has completely blown away or just a very thin cover stays.
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I believe, there were about 300m from the tent to the top of the ridge.
About 150m, according to this source:
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312
If the stage landed on the other side of the ridge, would the gas really been blown over the ridge and down the other side? Is that plausible?
Why did the gas meander down and not go straight? Doesn't the wind blow straight down the hill?
To be precise, we are talking about hydrogen. Hydrogen is very light, and it goes up, when it leaks to atmosphere. But when wind blows from top of a hill down, at least part of hydrogen has to follow the wind and go down. Sure, major part of hydrogen goes up, the dangerous concentration was formed not at the ground level, but high in the air.
And what about the point of crash? Wouldn't there be damage to the stone, if the stage crashed near the top of the ridge? There are usually areas in which the snow has completely blown away or just a very thin cover stays.
Have you heard anything about Mikhail Sharavin's circle of blown snow? Mikhail was the first who saw the tent on February 26th. His interview can be found here:
https://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/sharavinkontakt.shtml
From the interview:
"Question: In one of your interviews, you said that not far from the Dyatlov group's tent, there was a circular area of blown snow that was clearly visible. Do you think it could have been a trace left by a helicopter landing there? You saw helicopters landing and taking off many times after that. Can you compare them? Did they leave similar traces?
Or was the snow melted and icy, i.e., as if it had been melted? But again, in the shape of a circle?
M. Sharavin: As for the patch of blown snow, this was reported in a radiogram message from the search team.
The circle of blown snow was larger than that left by a helicopter propeller. Later, this notebook with all the search reports was confiscated by the “competent” authorities, the room was closed, and the duty was terminated. This is evidenced by one of the duty girls at the time, Galya ..., who made a confession, i.e., a statement 50 years later."
That patch of blown snow perfectly matches rocket's stage crash spot, imho.
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150m is even closer to the top, than I remembered. Thanks for the link.
Hydrogen, yes, I agree with what you say according to how hydrogen behaves. My questions are of a very specific kind, because details are very plausible. But do those details fit together?
You say, the rocket stage could have landed on the other side of the ridge. Assuming it did. What could have made the hikers leave the tent? The impact? A light or explosion? Would it be possible that enough hydrogen was blown over the top of the ridge exactly to were the tent was to make them leave the area altogether? If not, what else made them leave the tent?
And then we're back at the question: If most of the hydrogen went up in the air and the explosion you suggest happened up there, what ignited the gas? Up there was no fire and no hot remnants of the rocket and no electric sparks, if there was not by chance a lightning storm as well.
How do you suppose the hydrogen made that dark area down the slope?
Yes, I did read about that circle. I always attributed it to helicopters. You believe it might have been the exact point, the rocket stage hit? Isn't it very improbable that it landed in that form and not on its side? And wouldn't it leave marks on the stone of the mountain as well?
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You say, the rocket stage could have landed on the other side of the ridge. Assuming it did. What could have made the hikers leave the tent? The impact? A light or explosion? Would it be possible that enough hydrogen was blown over the top of the ridge exactly to were the tent was to make them leave the area altogether? If not, what else made them leave the tent?
Nevermind where exactly the stage landed, it shook the slope (like artificial earthquake), which in turn collapsed the tent at its northern side. The hikers found themselves trapped inside and had no idea what had happened and what would be next. In such situation of total uncertainty natural reaction is to escape the tent asap. When tent's roof lay on their heads and bodies, and the exit was blocked by their equipment and packed food, cutting the tent for emergency exit might had been a right idea.
In the next few minutes they sent two scouts to the crash spot, as they needed to know what had arrived from sky and how it could hamper their camp. On approaching the rocket the scouts faced its exhausts (extreme heat and extreme frost) and received severe burns and frostbites. They ran away and signaled the rest of the group to retreat immediately, as the wind dragged the exhausts the direction of the tent.
If the crash spot was on the other side of the slope, it is clear why the search team had not found anything on the tent's side.
And then we're back at the question: If most of the hydrogen went up in the air and the explosion you suggest happened up there, what ignited the gas? Up there was no fire and no hot remnants of the rocket and no electric sparks, if there was not by chance a lightning storm as well.
Candidate number one is a spark from the fire at the Cedar tree. Igor Dyatlov got frozen in 300m from Cedar, which for me indicates presense of cryogenic hydrogen at that distance. In some time hydrogen cloud might have moved much closer to Cedar. The ignition might have caused at first hydrogen deflagration, but when it came to the core of the cloud it turned into detonation. Imho, many models of initial ignition and further flame expansion can be built.
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In order to evaluate the effects and the possibility of your suggestion, it is important where exactly the stage landed, because depending on the exact spot, the effects are different, that's why I insist repeatedly on the exact spot.
Anyhow, I agree, the crash should have produced something that feels like an earthquake. It might have collapsed part of the tent.
I try to imagine, what a situation like that might feel like. I have experience in camping. Although I sometimes use modern tents, I also know canvas tents. I know what it's like, when you're inside, while it's not fully build up (holding poles and stuff) and I've lived through storms inside that tent, although my experience was during summer. This experience makes me think, that even if you don't know what's happening outside (noise and earthquake) and you want to leave as soon as possible, you don't cut your tent. Out in the wild, that tent is your home, it's what protects you from wind, cold and rain and gives you a little shelter at night, which makes you feel a little safer. They knew that. They wouldn't have cut the tent if it wasn't beyond repair in the first place or there was NO other way. And you don't place all your stuff in front of the entrance. Beside it, yes. Sometimes there's only a slim way left and you have to maneuver to not trip and fall, but you don't block your entire entrance. There's always one who's gotta pee in the middle of the night.
But let's go on. It sounds probable that scouts were sent. The concentration of hydrogen should be enough in a proximity of 10 to 30 m to be dangerous (this is what perplexity suggests). Furthermore there obviously can be an area that's both cold and hot enough to create burns and injuries because of the cold, while still not producing an explosion (I'm surprised perplexity suggests this is possible), but this would lead to frost bites and similar injuries on exposed skin and singed clothing rather than explicit burns to the skin. I believe the most fitting victims would be the two Yuris. But then there's still the mystery why they ventured outside scouting without boots and jackets!
Furthermore, it seems to be theoretically possible for a hydrogen cloud to build up and the wind blowing down some kind of gaseous fuse, that's ignited by the fire. However the probability of such a cloud building plus a fuse building, that's highly concentrated enough and doesn't have missing parts plus an ignition happening in such manner, that it actually reaches the cloud seems to be rather small. In most cases (it seems) the ignition under circumstances like those on the pass leads to the gas just burning silently away.
I don't say it couldn't have been. I only say it's rather improbable, it seems. Although I must admit, that it's one of the most consistent theories I've read so far. There's still things I find strange though.
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If a blast was responsible for the demise of the group how come bodies were found in various locations and positions with some injuries that were very unusual.
It is important to understand that the blast killed only Ravine-4 hikers. Those hikers were the only ones who managed to keep alive till then. All other hikers had been either dead or unconscious by the time of the blast. Many people think that a rocket should explode immediately when it hits the ground. Probably, for most cases that is true. But DPI is different -- the blast had happened IN A FEW HOURS after the rocket bumped the slope. We can recall Evgeniy Okishev words from his 2013 interview:
"Shortly before that we met with a worker of one of the prison camps in the North Urals. He described strange flashes of light which he and his wife saw late that evening on their way home from the cinema. The light came from the direction of the supposed accident with the hikers. We also received evidence from other local residents, and all of them spoke about a similar phenomenon".
So, local residents saw the flash from the explosion late in the evening, while the hikers ran from their tent early in the evening (they had not finished to change their clothes after climbing the slope and had not started their evening meal). That gives 3-4 hrs gap between the rocket's landing and the blast.
For the hikers, who were not Ravine-4, cause of their death was not the blast. It was hypothermia. You may object that hypothermia does not work that fast, so people get dead within 3-4 hrs. And you will be right, if we consider natural environments. But we should keep in mind that typical rockets' fuel components are cryogenic liquids -- LOX, LH2, etс. If there is a leakage of such stuff from a tank, it boils and evaporates mixing with air. Air temperature that in winter is low by itself, on getting cryogenic add-on might become EXTREMELY LOW. We remember that winds of the Pass blow from top of the slope downhill, the direction of the Cedar tree and the Ravine. Any attempt to return from the Cedar tree to the tent means that hikers have to get closer to the rocket's leaking tanks and face extremely low temperatures. Thus hypothermia would develop very quickly. Zina, Rustem, and Igor attempted to return, and they got frozen in dynamic poses.
Where is the evidence that the 4 in the ravine died because of blast injuries and where is the evidence of the timescale of the deaths of the group ??
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Yes, the ravine4 died of different injuries than the ones who died of hypothermia, but we should also keep in mind YuriK’s terrible leg burns. Pain from burns is extreme and it is suggested he bit off his finger in his attempt to bear the pain. So yes, the end results was probably hypothermic death, but the burns played a significant role.
I guess that Krivonischenko received his burns not from the Cedar's tree fire. All hikers reached the Cedar tree together. Other hikers would not had allowed him to put his leg in the flame and receive the burns. In my view he received the burns, when he tried to approach the fallen rocket's stage at the very beginning of the incident. Working rocket's engine is a good source of heat. It's also possible that they were beta burns, since a mysterios beta emmiter might had arrived with the rocket.
Where is the evidence for a fallen rocket stage ?
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I have added some marks to your article, the blue ones, which state that although the idea was already there in the late 1950s, the main research came later and it was during that later time, when the practical aspects were addressed and the first prototype was build. So it's highly improbable that this kind of rocket was the culprit for the demise of the dyatlovites...
First, I want to say that what I suggest is just a theory, and as it cannot be proved 100% there might be different options within it.
Yes, USSR had been attempting to create robust nuclear rocket engine for decades, and that is understandable. It is not possible to jump from nothing to a fully industrial nuclear engine immediately. Very long and hard work is required to reach this goal. Nobody expects that USSR had rocket engine powered by nuclear reactor already in 1959. However, much simpler experemental models could have come already. In a simple scenario you still have traditional chemical rocket, but you add radioactive material to preheat chemical components of its fuel, which are probably cryogenic.
(https://i.ibb.co/J6c3H49/4-concepts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vycXkGS)
Another simple approach is to build radioisotope engine, which uses thermal energy of natural decay of an isotope. Such engine has obvious drawbacks, but they are not so critical if you put the engine in an upper stage. Upper stage starts when it is in cosmos already, where engine's thrust is not significant and main benefit is high specific impulse.
I also believe that conceptualy new rocket engine cannot be designed on paper only. In this case it will fly on paper only as well. At each step you need to make experiments to select best way to proceed. E.g. you need to define which isotope you will use in the final model. and for that you need to try many of them in practice.
Actually it cant be proved any percent. There is zero evidence for rockets or such like.
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Missi, you ask very valid questions, and I hope I will manage to answer at least majority of them.
you might want to share its source?
The source is this article:
https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1200421/
The first prototype, according to your excerpt was much later than 1959. I do agree that there were probably models tested or experiments with parts of the components.
The article talks about nuclear engines with reactors. These are advanced models that can handle engine's thrust. I fully agree that their prototypes came later than 1959. For DPI I consider much simpler engine, which is powered by radioisotope's natural decay and cannot handle thrust at all -- it works non-stop and cannot accelerate or brake. To build such engine is much easier than to build engine with a reactor. Basically, you need a container with radioisotope and a pump which runs LH2 through the container. The implementation and radioisotope selections could be like that (1 - H2 tubes; 2 - isotope's container, 3 - nozzle):
(https://i.ibb.co/C33jnXJj/Pic-2.gif) (https://ibb.co/1ttC9psC)
(https://i.ibb.co/v4BNm8YC/Pic-1.gif) (https://ibb.co/VYNFD8m0)
if you don't suggest the hikers left intoxicated and in a rush to flee the gases, what do you think was the reason for their hurried abandoning of the tent area? And if they were not intoxicated, what made them pick those horrible choices as to leave their equipment behind?
In short, I think that when the rocket bumped the slope, all hikers were inside the tent. The rocket did not explode, but on falling from cosmic hight it produced something like an earthquake, which collapsed northern part of the tent and piled up some amount of snow on it. The natural action in that situation would be to leave the collapsed tent asap. So the cuts were made, and all hikers escaped through them. But they did not run immediately downhill. While most of the hikers grouped at about 7-8 meters from the tent, one or two guys returned to the tent and strated inspecting it with a torch. At the same time, two other guys, Krivonischenko and Doroshenko, were sent to investigate the fallen object, which created all that mess. It was key to understanbd what had arrived from sky and what were the risks. On approaching the object (rocket), they were affected by cryogenic H2 and extreme heat from isotope's container (or burning H2). They signaled the rest to retreat immedeatly, and all the group started descent to the forest.
I'm not sure how those in the ravine would have been that much affected by the assumed explosion. Shouldn't the layout of the land have provided them with protection against a shockwave?
The ravine is right in front of the treeline, which means it is not protected by the trees. It is not deep at all. Shock wave from an air explosion, which happens at certain height, would reach the ravine's bottom no problem.
Its all very well posting these drawings etc but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest a rocket crashed.
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Where is the evidence that the 4 in the ravine died because of blast injuries and where is the evidence of the timescale of the deaths of the group ??
Where is the evidence for a fallen rocket stage ?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest a rocket crashed.
You are desperately looking for evidence, aren't you? I am afraid that the only person, who can help you, is Lev Ivanov, as it is his professional responsibility to find evidence and to put it into the case files. But Ivanov died at the end of 90s, so I really do not know who else could help you with getting evidence.
While you are in search for the evidence, we may have a look at another interesting piece of information. In 1962, CIA made a report on the early days of the USSR's Space program. In that report we can see:
(https://i.ibb.co/k2bmX57z/Launching-failures.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jj63Hm18)
CIA reports quite high failure rate for USSR's lunar and interplanetary launches -- about 70%. However, if we take official results of the 1959 launches, we will see that 3 out of 4 launches to the Moon were successful, which gives us impressive 25% failure rate. Definitely, we have a considerable mismatch here. Could it be that there were more launches, but they were not reported? And CIA also mentions that USSR had issues particularly with upper stages...
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Where is the evidence that the 4 in the ravine died because of blast injuries and where is the evidence of the timescale of the deaths of the group ??
Where is the evidence for a fallen rocket stage ?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest a rocket crashed.
You are desperately looking for evidence, aren't you? I am afraid that the only person, who can help you, is Lev Ivanov, as it is his professional responsibility to find evidence and to put it into the case files. But Ivanov died at the end of 90s, so I really do not know who else could help you with getting evidence.
While you are in search for the evidence, we may have a look at another interesting piece of information. In 1962, CIA made a report on the early days of the USSR's Space program. In that report we can see:
(https://i.ibb.co/k2bmX57z/Launching-failures.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jj63Hm18)
CIA reports quite high failure rate for USSR's lunar and interplanetary launches -- about 70%. However, if we take official results of the 1959 launches, we will see that 3 out of 4 launches to the Moon were successful, which gives us impressive 25% failure rate. Definitely, we have a considerable mismatch here. Could it be that there were more launches, but they were not reported? And CIA also mentions that USSR had issues particularly with upper stages...
Well if I'm desperately looking for evidence then I'm not alone. The whole point of this forum and other forums and sites is to try and figure out what happened and that requires us to search for evidence.
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Well if I'm desperately looking for evidence then I'm not alone. The whole point of this forum and other forums and sites is to try and figure out what happened and that requires us to search for evidence.
You are right, we all want to know what happened at DP in February 1959. But I do not think we can find any extra evidence besides those pieces found in 1959. Lev Ivanov and his colleagues had been working hard for a few months, and we have to leverage on what was found those days. Of course, sooner or later new evidence will come, but it will not be due to our efforts. There is a chance that old USSR secret archives will be made public, and then we will get to know true cause of the incident. Before it happens, we are to make a best guess, IMHO.
Another topic is what could be called "evidence". In theory, evidence should be provided by case files. The question is: what is status of the known case files? If we go deeper into this topic, it will become clear that the case files is unofficial document, which has the same level of credibility as recollections of Mr.Sharavin, Mr.Sogrin, Mr.Okishev, provided many years after. The case files were fabricated by Ivanov at request from the Moscow big boss - Leonid Urakov. The case files' only purpose was to provide a due folder for the investigation's closing statement, and having that statement on hand to finish the investigation and stop any further attempts to understand what happened with the hikers. The case files has no number, which means this documets has been concealed from official registration, which is mandatory. Inside, it has a lot of violations of USSR's Code of Criminal Procedure, but all these violations "were overlooked" by Ivanov's supervisors. Yes, the case files contain a lot of genuine documents, but alltogether they give no clue what was the cause of DPI. The case files offer very shaky evidence!
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https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/new-map-shows-frequency-of-small-asteroid-impacts-provides-clues-on-larger-asteroid-population/
This is a NASA paper reflecting the number of bolide events around the globe.
I was amazed to see that maybe the largest concentration of such events across the world occurs right where the DPI was. Image below.
(https://i.ibb.co/3mwd6Tc7/bolides.png) (https://ibb.co/tpSKjHD4)
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That is quite amazing, amashilu. Although the map is about a period of time much later than the DPI. Plus we get back to the topic of the meteorite. I've just been watching a documentation about the Tunguska event, which had me thinking. But then again in neither case it's sure that we deal with a meteorite.
But why are there SO MANY of them in the are, asteroids I mean.
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It is amazing, isn't it?
QUOTE from GOOGLE AI:
The Ural Mountains region in Russia is considered an area with an anomalously high frequency of bolide (fireball) sightings and meteorite falls, often associated with its distinct tectonic features. While small bolides occur globally on a daily basis, the Ural region has a notable history of significant, observable events.
Key facts regarding bolides in the Ural Mountains:
Anomalous Frequency: Research indicates that the Urals and the nearby Yenisei-Tunguska-Baikal region are considered "anomalously" active, with a high frequency of bolide appearances, some accompanied by meteorite falls.
The 2013 Chelyabinsk Event: On February 15, 2013, a roughly 17-20 meter meteor exploded over the southern Ural Mountains near Chelyabinsk, releasing energy equivalent to roughly 500 kilotons of TNT. This was the largest reported airburst since the 1908 Tunguska event.
Other Recorded Events: In addition to the 2013 explosion, other meteors have fallen in the region, such as the Kunashak meteorite in 1949.
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I don't think it's amazing.
It is amazing, isn't it?
QUOTE from GOOGLE AI:
The Ural Mountains region in Russia is considered an area with an anomalously high frequency of bolide (fireball) sightings and meteorite falls, often associated with its distinct tectonic features. While small bolides occur globally on a daily basis, the Ural region has a notable history of significant, observable events.
Key facts regarding bolides in the Ural Mountains:
Anomalous Frequency: Research indicates that the Urals and the nearby Yenisei-Tunguska-Baikal region are considered "anomalously" active, with a high frequency of bolide appearances, some accompanied by meteorite falls.
The 2013 Chelyabinsk Event: On February 15, 2013, a roughly 17-20 meter meteor exploded over the southern Ural Mountains near Chelyabinsk, releasing energy equivalent to roughly 500 kilotons of TNT. This was the largest reported airburst since the 1908 Tunguska event.
Other Recorded Events: In addition to the 2013 explosion, other meteors have fallen in the region, such as the Kunashak meteorite in 1949.
The question must be asked as to why the Urals is potentially a higher frequency of bolide if it is at all?
We can have a higher frequency of bolide in other parts of the globe but one large one in a large land mass. We have to observe the data and understand it it . For example , from the data you put forward , is it the number of bolide observations, visual, or recorded by technical machines or size of potential meteorite .
This make a huge difference. Later studies over a longer time given this image .
(https://i.ibb.co/9Hx9FngF/Screenshot-20260131-185356-Chrome.png) (https://ibb.co/m5nCLJTL)
The red represents the size of the mass , not the frequency of metors , take away the 2013 event and everything globally is a random event of the penatration of random rocks from space?.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't realize it's about the energy, not the frequency. Would have made for a nice anomaly though...
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NASA's explanation of the bolide map:
The map above indicates the locations where small asteroids crashed into Earth’s atmosphere between 1994 and 2013. Each of these 556 events resulted in a very bright meteor—also known as a bolide or fireball. On the map, orange dots represent daytime impacts and blue represents nighttime. The size of each dot is proportional to the radiated energy of the fireball, measured in billions of Joules (GigaJoules).
The map includes asteroids/meteors ranging from about 1 meter (3 feet) to almost 20 meters (65 feet); it does not include objects smaller than a meter. Nearly all of them disintegrated in the atmosphere and were harmless to life on the surface. The notable exception was the February 2013 Chelyabinsk event over central Russia. That impact released the energy equivalent of 440,000 to 500,000 tons of TNT, and it was the largest meteor to hit Earth in this period.
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Well if I'm desperately looking for evidence then I'm not alone. The whole point of this forum and other forums and sites is to try and figure out what happened and that requires us to search for evidence.
You are right, we all want to know what happened at DP in February 1959. But I do not think we can find any extra evidence besides those pieces found in 1959. Lev Ivanov and his colleagues had been working hard for a few months, and we have to leverage on what was found those days. Of course, sooner or later new evidence will come, but it will not be due to our efforts. There is a chance that old USSR secret archives will be made public, and then we will get to know true cause of the incident. Before it happens, we are to make a best guess, IMHO.
Another topic is what could be called "evidence". In theory, evidence should be provided by case files. The question is: what is status of the known case files? If we go deeper into this topic, it will become clear that the case files is unofficial document, which has the same level of credibility as recollections of Mr.Sharavin, Mr.Sogrin, Mr.Okishev, provided many years after. The case files were fabricated by Ivanov at request from the Moscow big boss - Leonid Urakov. The case files' only purpose was to provide a due folder for the investigation's closing statement, and having that statement on hand to finish the investigation and stop any further attempts to understand what happened with the hikers. The case files has no number, which means this documets has been concealed from official registration, which is mandatory. Inside, it has a lot of violations of USSR's Code of Criminal Procedure, but all these violations "were overlooked" by Ivanov's supervisors. Yes, the case files contain a lot of genuine documents, but alltogether they give no clue what was the cause of DPI. The case files offer very shaky evidence!
You say ; ''Of course, sooner or later new evidence will come, but it will not be due to our efforts.'' But history shows that persistent enquiry sometimes gets results, precisely because it is persistent. We see it today in many of the scandals that are circulating the World. Persistence has forced authorities to reveal what they would not have revealed unless pressure of sorts was put upon them.
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It may be quite interesting to compare how two main Soviet cosmodromes were being built and made operational in 1950-60s.
History of Tyuratam (Baikonur cosmodrome):
12.01.1955 Arrival at the Tyuratam railway station of the first unit of military builders to prepare the deployment sites, construction, and installation infrastructure. The construction of the settlement begins.
12.02.1955 Order of the Council of Ministers of the USSR on creation of a test site for intercontinental ballistic missiles.
20.07.1955 Construction of the first launch pad begins.
15.05.1957 The first R-7 rocket is launched from the cosmodrome.
12.01.1955 - 15.05.1957 => less than 1.5 years.
History of Angara (Plesetsk cosmodrome):
11.01.1957 Order of the USSR government on creation of the military facility Angara.
15.03.1957 Construction of the facility began 180 kilometers south of Arkhangelsk, in close proximity to the railway station of Plesetskaya of the Northern Railway.
Between 1957 and 1963, nine launch complexes were built at the Angara facility, including 15 launch pads for four types of missiles: R-7/R-7A, R-16, R-16U, and R-9A.
22.10.1963 The first launch. R-16U ballistic missile was launched from a silo.
15.03.1957 - 22.10.1963 => more than 6.5 years.
With the introduction of the 2nd (Plesetsk) cosmodrome the Soviet government seemed to be very tolerant. grin1 They kept waiting till the very last launch pad was built and only after that started launches.