Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. Curious on February 04, 2021, 01:11:15 PM
-
Hi everyone!
I recently became interested in the Dyatlov incident and I looked into the radiation aspect today. I tried finding similar arguments to mine online and in the forum but couldn’t find any. In case my hypothesis was already mentioned before, feel free to delete this thread. Otherwise I’m interested in what you guys think about it and I would be thrilled if this could contribute to solving the radiation mystery:
---
According to the official radiology lab report ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377 ) high levels of “beta-only” radiation were detected in the clothes of the four hikers found in May 1959 lying in a snowmelt creek. The source of the radiation is considered a mystery and due to lying in running water for weeks it is widely assumed that the radiation levels were much higher at the time of death.
I want to present the following contradictory hypothesis:
The radiation levels at the time of death were probably normal and lying in from fallout contaminated snowmelt for weeks is likely to be the reason for the detected radiation.
“Beta-only” radiation is quite rare and (given the lab did its job right) points to a few very specific isotopes called “Beta Emitters”. Those are typically found in long-term fallout particles from nuclear fission explosions. One of them is Strontium-90.
According to the following study Strontium-90 was found in significant amounts in rivers around the Dyatlov Pass and all over Russia at that time as a result of continuing nuclear test detonations.
“SR-90 discharge with main rivers of Russia into the Arctic Ocean during 1961-1990”
https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/28/041/28041362.pdf
by V.B. Chumichev, Federal Environmental Emergency Response Centre SPA “Typhoon”, Obninsk, Russia.
36 nuclear test detonations were conducted in Russia in 1958 alone before the Test Ban Treaty was signed in late October. The radionuclides from these detonations spread in the atmosphere and precipitated through rain and snow in a slow, gradual process, resulting in Strontium-90 contamination (among other beta emitters). The snow at the Dyatlov pass probably collected contaminated particles for five or six months before it melted in May.
Fabric in clothing or the fine mesh they are comprised of can act like a filter in running water. As a matter of fact, fabric is used in various filters for that reason. Given particles containing the Strontium-90 (and other beta emitters) were bound in the snow and running through the snowmelt creek the four hikers were lying in (which seems very likely), I find the idea more than compelling that those particles were filtered, collected and concentrated over weeks in the hikers clothes, resulting in the high levels of "beta-only" radiation later detected in the lab. The random distribution of the contamination being a result of the random exposure to the water (and other factors like: time, type of fabric, mesh density, position in the current, position of the fabric mesh in relation to the current, etc.etc.).
I think this hypothesis could explain:
-why only beta radiation was found
-why the distribution of the contamination seemed random
-why the radiation (particles containing it) could be washed out
-why Dubininas sweater showed the highest levels of contamination (having the largest surface area in contact with the water plus her upright angle forcing more water through the fabric due to gravity.)
-why only the clothes of the four hikers found in the water showed contamination (Only those four were tested. Possibly because only their Geiger readouts justified further lab-testing.)
-> In conclusion: The detected radiation in the four hikers' clothes is likely to be the result of collected fallout dust rendering the radiation aspect completely irrelevant to the hikers’ deaths.
This hypothesis could easily be tested in order to prove it right or wrong, running fallout particle contaminated water through fabric, replicating the circumstances from 1959.
To further strengthen this hypothesis I quickly ran some numbers:
-Could an amount of fallout dust be collected in the hikers clothes that would explain the radiation levels later measured in the lab?
Radiation levels actually measured in the clothes:
Lets make it tough and take the highest measured level of
9900cpm/150cm² = 165 Bq/150cm² = 1.1 Bq/cm²
Let’s say the complete front of Dubininas sweater has to have the highest radiation level:
1.1Bq/cm² x 2000cm² = 2200Bq
Due to the lack of better data (for now), lets make it tough as well and take only the SR-90 levels measured by SPA Typhoon in the closest river to Dyatlov (Ob’) in 1961: 30 Bq/m³
Let’s say only 5% of the water passing by Dubinina actually went through her sweater.
Looking at the waterflow on the photo with her body: 20l/sec over 14 days is 24.192m³. ( https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-2.jpg )
24.192m³ / 20 = 1209,6m³ (5%)
Let’s say of those 5% of water passing through her sweater, 5% of the dust in it was actually filtered and remained in her sweater:
1209,6m³@30 Bq/m³ = 36.288Bq / 20 = 1814,4 Bq !!!
That’s pretty close to the 2200Bq we wanted and all of that under pretty tough circumstances:
-highest lab-measured radiation level on the complete front of her sweater!
-only going by SR-90 even though that is just one under several beta-only fallout isotopes!
-assuming 5% water passing through her sweater at 5% filtration!
This is still UNSCIENTIFIC AF and any scientist worth a grain of salt would beat me to death seeing it.
But given the fact that only a test could determine the dozens of relevant factors – I think those numbers are an interesting indicator.
->If the water running through the hikers’ clothes was contaminated with radioactive dust which evidently was present all over Russia at that time through regular nuclear testing fallout alone,
IT COULD RESULT IN THE RADIATION LEVELS MEASURED IN THE LAB!!!
dance1 dance1 dance1 dance1 dance1
I should mention that I’m not a scientist and neither did I back up my findings with one, but to me and my limited knowledge this hypothesis seems to be the best explanation so far for the radiation mystery. In fact it seems so obvious and logical that I doubt I’m the first one coming up with it. ; )
But I thought: Let’s give it a shot anyway!
Let me know what you guys think!
Greetings from Berlin!
Felix
PS: I updated this post due to further research. It said SR-90 Radiation Hypothesis before which was unnecessarily specific. The rough calculation was not part of the original posting.
PPS: If you want to publish or quote my hypothesis or parts of it publicly, contact me first. I’m in contact with the Joint Research Center working on validation and publication of my findings.
-
Welcome to the Forum at an interesting time. Some other Members seem to have some good ideas at the Radiation explanation. But on the face of it it looks like as you say, that particular type of Radiation could be due to all those Soviet Tests.
-
Ideas like this are great for eliminating a whole raft of theories. I'm sure the answer can be determined.
The levels were only 3 times more than background iirc, about the same as the exposure from taking a long haul flight.
-
Welcome. Your theory is possible. Strontium behaves similarly to calcium, which is not greatly soluble so could be captured as particles in water.
Regards
Star man
-
Hi Felix,
what are the odds... Greetings from Berlin to Berlin. ;)
Now to the facts.
It surely is possible that your theory is right. I'm no scientist either, but here are my thoughts that might ruin it:
As far as I know there's no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested.
The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think.
It was established elsewhere in this forum, that the nuclear tests didn't only release strontium into nature but also other radioactive elements. The study you quoted reflects on strontium only, probably because it's soluble in water and therefore can be carried to the sea, which is the intention of the study to view upon. It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water and especially that close to the top of the mountain aka the beginning of the current. Wouldn't there have been traces of other radioactive sources than beta? Then again maybe there wouldn't because only strontium might have been distributed so far across the land. I don't know, just trying to point to things that should be considered.
And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated...
-
Hi Missi!
Don't worry, I don't think your remarks ruin my hypothesis. ; )
"no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested."
-That seems to be correct. I crossed this paragraph, thank you for bringing it up! One reason for not testing them could be that initial Geiger counter tests showed no significant contamination to justify further lab testing. Does anyone have info regarding this point in general (on why only those four were tested)?
"The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think."
-I think the picture taken of Dubinina lying in the creek shows a waterflow of at least 20l/sec. If you run the numbers according to the assumed minimum of two weeks lying in the creek you end up with 26 Million liters of molten contaminated snow rushing past them. Even if it only was 1/10 of that in reality - probably still enough. I'm not qualified to compare the measurements of the SPA to the findings in the clothes, but a sample size of 20l(!) of water was enough for the SPA to detect the SR-90 sufficiently. I guess only an expert could determine if the circumstances allowed for the detection of the radiation levels later found in the lab.
"It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water (...)"
-True. And I didn't say it does. ; )
"And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated..."
-As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc doesn't protect particularly well against radiation and was never meant to do so, but it was the standard material used for coffins that required to be air- or watertight for various reasons, for example slowing down decomposition or leaking.
Thanks and best regards!
Felix
-
"no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested."
-That seems to be correct. I crossed this paragraph, thank you for bringing it up! One reason for not testing them could be that initial Geiger counter tests showed no significant contamination to justify further lab testing. Does anyone have info regarding this point in general (on why only those four were tested)?
As far as I know, there was no geiger counter present, when they found the first five victims. It was brought there later with someone who came there for the finding of the other four victims in May.
So there's no evidence for the present but as well none for the absence of radiation. It's just unclear.
"The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think."
-I think the picture taken of Dubinina lying in the creek shows a waterflow of at least 20l/sec. If you run the numbers according to the assumed minimum of two weeks lying in the creek you end up with 26 Million liters of molten contaminated snow rushing past them. Even if it only was 1/10 of that in reality - probably still enough. I'm not qualified to compare the measurements of the SPA to the findings in the clothes, but a sample size of 20l(!) of water was enough for the SPA to detect the SR-90 sufficiently. I guess only an expert could determine if the circumstances allowed for the detection of the radiation levels later found in the lab.
It's not the amount of water I'm suspicious about but rather why the snow should be contaminated. Snow is rather pure. If it's contaminated, that'd be by nuclear tests after or during snowfall (which we can rule out, as far as I know, because of the moratorium starting with November) or because the land it covers is contaminated. But there's not so much land the snow that's caught in the current there on the hill can originate from. Would that really ad up to that much radiation?
"It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water (...)"
-True. And I didn't say it does. ; )
But if there was other radiation sources in the water and later in the clothes, the tests would have shown other than beta radiation.
"And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated..."
-As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc doesn't protect particularly well against radiation and was never meant to do so, but it was the standard material used for coffins that required to be air- or watertight for various reasons, for example slowing down decomposition or leaking.
You are right. They did use zinc coffins for other reasons than radiation. But they also put the victims of Chernobyl in zinc coffins (although it was just one layer and they also put cement around the coffins).
There's still the question: Why put one in a zinc coffin and not the others? What was different about him?
-
One thing which struck me as odd was the investigators don't appear to have visited the homes of Yuri K and Aleksander to positively confirm their clothing was the source of radiation by scanning the rest of their clothing and where it was stored. Find other traces there and you would firmly establish if they took radiation to the pass, otherwise it's just an assumption.
And for the sake of the health of their families it needed to be determined if there was any other potential radiological danger in their homes.
Without any record of this test (that I'm aware) it might suggest they already knew the source was the mountain, or that area, and would determine the scope of this contamination from geiger counter tests at distances from 1079.
After this tragedy locals were told to avoid using the wells and not to hunt for 4 years (according to the BBC article). That all seems like overkill if two men had merely travelled through the district wearing 3 pieces of radioactive clothing, with one ending up in a ravine.
-
@Missi
Hey, being white doesn’t automatically make things pure! ; ) (random pc-joke)
I’m not a meteorologist, but isn’t snow just frozen atmospheric water? Like eh, you know, rain, but colder? All jokes aside, I think if anything the six months of snow collected and then released way more fallout at once than normally would through rain.
Here is an interesting document about the fallout and SR-90 concentrations in the rain in the late 1950s and 60s: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.2153-3490.1964.tb00154.x
(Netherlands, but hence the fallout originated in Russia you’ll get the idea.)
Fallout is a complex topic, takes various forms and time frames. I’d suggest you come forward with specific evidence contradicting my hypothesis- otherwise you and I will write novels here. ; )
Zinc coffin: As you correctly pointed out before, we don’t know anything about the contamination of the remaining five hikers. That makes the zinc coffin pure, white speculation. (Sorry, I’m just kidding, no front! ; )
@eurocentric
Yeah, hard to comprehend all of these things, I think partly because the hierarchies, policies and habits from late 50s USSR are quite alien to us nowadays. They pretty much classified everything, swept it under the rug or silenced those who talked. The constant threat of being punished yourself manifested itself in a collective mentality of avoiding anything out of the necessary. That of course is a vast and unfair generalization, but you know what I mean. ; )
The following made things easier for me regarding Dyatlov (and is a good rule of thumb in scientific work): Stick to what is known or can be known and draw conclusions from that. Everything else will drive you crazy. ; )
Best regards!
Felix
-
Hi, Felix.
For a while, I've thought, similarly to you, that the radioactive clothes might be a "red herring" and not relevant to the case. However, instead of nuclear weapon tests, perhaps the Kyshtym Disaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster) of 1957 might be the source of the water's radioactive contamination? The front page of dyatlovpass.com has an article (https://dyatlovpass.com/kyshtym-disaster?rbid=18461) about the Disaster, BTW.
-
Thanks Felix, I'll read the text. It looks interesting.
And yes, you're right. I made a mistake. I was thinking about rain and snow being pure in the sense of distilled water. But of course, since there's such a thing as acid rain, that doesn't apply here. Indeed, you might be on to something.
For the topic of the zinc coffin: I didn't intend anything but to keep in mind that there's some things we don't know that are strange. And the zinc coffins are one of those things. We don't know much about the reasons and I do believe there's only two possible reasons. One is just simply coincidence and randomness into which we interpret just too much. The other is there was someone who knew more than we know even today and it was logical to use a zinc coffin.
There was a nice thread about the possibility of someone bringing radiation on his clothes from Mayak. The argumentation was along the lines that the kyshtym disaster had produced more than just beta radiation and that those must have been detectable on the clothes as well, if it was brought from there. Not my argumentation, just a short summery of what I read in the subforum of the radiation theory.
-
I just did a little more research. Even though I wasn’t able to find it yesterday:
It seems like most isotopes from long-term fallout are beta-only emitters!? Like Strontium-90, Iodine-131, Caesium-137, Tritium, etc. So beta-only is not so special at all as long as you’re looking within long-term fission fallout products? xD
Then I have to find a new name for my hypothesis. ; ) Any experts here who could confirm the statement above? I hate radio chemistry.
So then the only questions remaining are:
-Is clothing capable of collecting fallout dust when immersed in a stream of running water containing the dust? (I think the answer is almost certainly: yes).
-Could an amount be collected that would explain the radiation levels measured in the lab?
Radiation levels actually measured in the clothes:
Lets make it tough and take the highest measured level of
9900cpm/150cm² = 165 Bq/150cm² = 1.1 Bq/cm²
Let’s say the complete front of Dubininas sweater has to have the highest radiation level:
1.1Bq/cm² x 2000cm² = 2200Bq
Due to the lack of better data (for now), lets make it tough as well and take only the SR-90 levels measured by SPA Typhoon in the closest river to Dyatlow (Ob’) in 1961: 30 Bq/m³
Let’s say only 5% of the water passing by Dubinina actually went through her sweater.
Looking at the waterflow on the photo with her body: 20l/sec over 14 days is 24.192m³.
24.192m³ / 20 = 1209,6m³ (5%)
Let’s say of those 5% of water passing through her sweater, 5% of the dust in it was actually filtered and remained in her sweater:
1209,6m³@30 Bq/m³ = 36.288Bq / 20 = 1814,4 Bq !!!
That’s pretty close to the 2200Bq we wanted and all of that under pretty tough circumstances:
-highest lab-measured radiation level on the complete front of her sweater!
-only going by SR-90 even though that is just one under several beta-only fallout isotopes!
-assuming only 5% water passing through her sweater at only 5% filtration!
This is still UNSCIENTIFIC AF and any scientist worth a grain of salt would beat me to death seeing it.
But given the fact that only a test could determine the dozens of realevant factors – I think this further strengthens my hypothesis!
->If the water running through the hikers’ clothes was contaminated with radioactive dust which evidently was present all over Russia at that time through regular nuclear testing fallout alone, IT COULD RESULT IN THE RADIATION LEVELS MEASURED IN THE LAB!!!
dance1 dance1 dance1
-
"no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested."
-That seems to be correct. I crossed this paragraph, thank you for bringing it up! One reason for not testing them could be that initial Geiger counter tests showed no significant contamination to justify further lab testing. Does anyone have info regarding this point in general (on why only those four were tested)?
As far as I know, there was no geiger counter present, when they found the first five victims. It was brought there later with someone who came there for the finding of the other four victims in May.
So there's no evidence for the present but as well none for the absence of radiation. It's just unclear.
"The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think."
-I think the picture taken of Dubinina lying in the creek shows a waterflow of at least 20l/sec. If you run the numbers according to the assumed minimum of two weeks lying in the creek you end up with 26 Million liters of molten contaminated snow rushing past them. Even if it only was 1/10 of that in reality - probably still enough. I'm not qualified to compare the measurements of the SPA to the findings in the clothes, but a sample size of 20l(!) of water was enough for the SPA to detect the SR-90 sufficiently. I guess only an expert could determine if the circumstances allowed for the detection of the radiation levels later found in the lab.
It's not the amount of water I'm suspicious about but rather why the snow should be contaminated. Snow is rather pure. If it's contaminated, that'd be by nuclear tests after or during snowfall (which we can rule out, as far as I know, because of the moratorium starting with November) or because the land it covers is contaminated. But there's not so much land the snow that's caught in the current there on the hill can originate from. Would that really ad up to that much radiation?
"It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water (...)"
-True. And I didn't say it does. ; )
But if there was other radiation sources in the water and later in the clothes, the tests would have shown other than beta radiation.
"And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated..."
-As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc doesn't protect particularly well against radiation and was never meant to do so, but it was the standard material used for coffins that required to be air- or watertight for various reasons, for example slowing down decomposition or leaking.
You are right. They did use zinc coffins for other reasons than radiation. But they also put the victims of Chernobyl in zinc coffins (although it was just one layer and they also put cement around the coffins).
There's still the question: Why put one in a zinc coffin and not the others? What was different about him?
Apparently Ivanov used a Geiger Counter at the site of the Tent and noticed that the Readouts were off the scale. Thats very unusual. Unfortunatley Ivanov was not allowed to divulge this Information along with other Information because the Authorities told him to wrap up the Case ASAP.
-
sarapuk: “Apparently Ivanov used a Geiger Counter at the site of the Tent and noticed that the Readouts were off the scale”
-Source?
Here is what I found (sources below):
In July of 1990, Ivanov, the lead investigator(!), said in an interview he himself had to carry a large, wooden box to the scene which was clicking. He didn’t find out what it was but ASSUMES it was a Geiger counter, being SURE there was radiation. Alright…
Four months later in November 1990 he publishes his own article saying:
“When the investigation was underway (…) we did not know about radiation”
What is it then? You didn’t know about radiation or you were sure about it?
(OK, it is possible he only found out later what the clicking sound was, but still...)
Geiger counters of that time drew a lot of power and only gave live(!) readouts.
So why would anyone switch on the Geiger counter on its way to the scene inside a wooden box where nobody could even read the levels? Increasing the chance of being run out of power when the counter is actually needed? Why would anyone make the lead investigator carry a boxed Geiger counter that is swichted on but not read by anyone?
Sorry but none of this makes any sense to me and Ivanov even contradicts himself.
And even if it was like he said: the clicking sound does not automatically mean “high radiation”. The clicks are single particles detected. So for example 9900cmp are 165 per second!
I get the feeling people are enjoying the mystery so much that they want to keep it as mysterious as possible instead of ruling out things to contribute to solving the case?
I laughed when I read this from Bogomolov:
“I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing.”
Yes, the lawyer of a lawyers’ lawyer told his sisters lawyer that…
----
https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2
Bogomolov Interview with Lev Ivanov (July 1990)
"I did not work out the version about the light balls. I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't found out."
https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov
Ivanov himself (November 1990)
“The fact is that when the investigation was underway, (…) At that time, we still knew very little about unidentified flying objects, we did not know about radiation either.”
“Having conspired with scientists of the UFAN (Ural branch of the USSR Academy of Sciences), I conducted very extensive research on clothes and individual organs of the deceased for "radiation".the brown sweater of one of the hikers who had bodily injuries - gave 9900 decays per minute, and after washing the sample - 5200 decays, that is, these data indicate the presence of radioactive "dust" which was washed away.“
---
Ok so the last paragraph indicates that they had reasons to only lab-test the four hikers, maybe because only those bodies showed high contamination. But again: that’s all speculation and not really worth anything. What do you guys think? (And please - don't feel offended by what I'm writing, I'm just interested in getting closer to the truth. : )
-
I've also read that there was noticeable radiation around the tent area. I believe it was said by one interviewee and not part of the official file. I don't trust those things only said by one person of the search team that much. It might be correct, but he might also have been mistaken. If I remember correct, that is...
Concerning Ivanov: I understand those quotes that he is now sure there was radiation but they didn't know then. The clicking box is a mystery though, especially taking into account the part with the live readings I didn't know about.
As for the lawyer story: It's pretty impossible anything was glowing. But maybe the story was used to get someone do something. Speculation, that is. And highly not-verifiable.
I like your calculation, Felix. (The last equality hurts my mathematicians heart, though. shock1)
Did you also try to calculate the amount of radiation for the other two pieces of cloth? This one only fits to the sweater Ljuda was wearing, for you explicitly reference to the amount of water flowing through it. The other pieces probably filtered less water. Does it fit there as well?
As for the fallout emitters you mentioned:
Strontium 90 is a pure beta-emitter that as a half life of 28 years. This is a possibility to be around at the time in question in sufficient amounts. The product of decay is yttrium 90 which is a beta-emitter as well and has a half life of only about 3 days (a little less) and its product of decay is zirconium 90, which is stable. Given the times of half life, there's probably not much the yttrium does compared to strontium...
Iodine 131 is also a beta-emitter but its half life is only about 8 days. Given an amount of 100% at the time the moratorium began (which I believe was the end of November 1958, but could also have been the beginning of November and I'm just too lazy to find out right now), there came and went 8 times the half life of Iodine 131, leaving only 1/2⁸ of the amount in the beginning. I don't think that amount would be important, taking into account that this was not a site of a direct testing. Also the product of decay is xenon 131, which is stable.
Caesium 137 is decaying into barium 137 while emitting beta-radiation. Its half life is about 30 years. The barium is stable. So this would also be a viable candidate.
Tritium is not very plausible. It's gaseous, but I don't know if it's lighter or heavier than our normal air. It can be a byproduct of fission bombs but then there should have been something as uranium or plutonium, I guess. The stuff being gaseous just doesn't add up.
The question always is: Where does it come from? It obviously has to be a pure beta-emitter and it has to be a possible candidate of fallout occurring from a distance.
-
Sorry for jumping in with such a short remark, but: Without remembering the details, I found the radiation levels to be way too inconsistent to have been picked up during the hike.
-
You're probably right with that point. But the thread of argument was that the radiation caused by some test or maybe accident was distributed via fallout in the area and the thawing snow that made up the current, the ravine 4 were lying in, had those contaminated dust particles filtered through their clothes, in which those particles stuck, causing the radiation level measured in the radiation test during the case.
On the other hand: Wouldn't they have picked up radioactive dust with their shoes as well, when moving around the area? Was that just not enough?
-
Hats off to some fairly geeky analysis. No harm intended. But perhaps the question should be asked. Why bring a geiger counter out to the middle of nowhere?
-
Welcome Dr. Curious, I think your analysis makes sense. This radiation could be from the stream.
I wanted to mention that we don't know for sure that the contamination was only a beta emitter. It might be that the "lab" where the clothes were tested had no means to measure other types of radiation, or that the other types were simply off scale (way too strong). I also wanted to say that this radiation could even be from elsewhere like the floor of the helicopter that transported the bodies, for example.
But one thing that is almost certain in any case is the radiation had nothing to do with their deaths, because internal tissues were also tested and came out negative, so it was only something on their clothes.
The mystery, then, is why radiation testing was ordered in the first place? And why were the results then removed from the case files? Because Ivanov's story about the glowing sweater is clearly nonsense.
-
sarapuk: “Apparently Ivanov used a Geiger Counter at the site of the Tent and noticed that the Readouts were off the scale”
-Source?
Here is what I found (sources below):
In July of 1990, Ivanov, the lead investigator(!), said in an interview he himself had to carry a large, wooden box to the scene which was clicking. He didn’t find out what it was but ASSUMES it was a Geiger counter, being SURE there was radiation. Alright…
Four months later in November 1990 he publishes his own article saying:
“When the investigation was underway (…) we did not know about radiation”
What is it then? You didn’t know about radiation or you were sure about it?
(OK, it is possible he only found out later what the clicking sound was, but still...)
Geiger counters of that time drew a lot of power and only gave live(!) readouts.
So why would anyone switch on the Geiger counter on its way to the scene inside a wooden box where nobody could even read the levels? Increasing the chance of being run out of power when the counter is actually needed? Why would anyone make the lead investigator carry a boxed Geiger counter that is swichted on but not read by anyone?
Sorry but none of this makes any sense to me and Ivanov even contradicts himself.
And even if it was like he said: the clicking sound does not automatically mean “high radiation”. The clicks are single particles detected. So for example 9900cmp are 165 per second!
I get the feeling people are enjoying the mystery so much that they want to keep it as mysterious as possible instead of ruling out things to contribute to solving the case?
I laughed when I read this from Bogomolov:
“I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing.”
Yes, the lawyer of a lawyers’ lawyer told his sisters lawyer that…
----
https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2
Bogomolov Interview with Lev Ivanov (July 1990)
"I did not work out the version about the light balls. I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't found out."
https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov
Ivanov himself (November 1990)
“The fact is that when the investigation was underway, (…) At that time, we still knew very little about unidentified flying objects, we did not know about radiation either.”
“Having conspired with scientists of the UFAN (Ural branch of the USSR Academy of Sciences), I conducted very extensive research on clothes and individual organs of the deceased for "radiation".the brown sweater of one of the hikers who had bodily injuries - gave 9900 decays per minute, and after washing the sample - 5200 decays, that is, these data indicate the presence of radioactive "dust" which was washed away.“
---
Ok so the last paragraph indicates that they had reasons to only lab-test the four hikers, maybe because only those bodies showed high contamination. But again: that’s all speculation and not really worth anything. What do you guys think? (And please - don't feel offended by what I'm writing, I'm just interested in getting closer to the truth. : )
Well like I have said many times in this Forum, the Authorities told Ivanov to wrap up the matter as quickly as possible. It wasnt until the end of the USSR that Ivanov decided to go public. So it may appear at first sight that there are contradictions but there are not. It was merely Ivanov having to close the Case ASAP. And he did say that the Geiger Counter went crazy or words to that effect.
-
Hats off to some fairly geeky analysis. No harm intended. But perhaps the question should be asked. Why bring a geiger counter out to the middle of nowhere?
Thats one way of putting it. Well I think we can safely assume that the Metal Detectors where for searching for the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. But the Geiger Counter is an interesting one. And that could put paid to any of the Theories of a Nuclear Event, because if there was a Nuclear Event then the Authorities would already know about it and wouldnt need Geiger Counters. So what indeed was the reason for a Geiger Counter ! ?
-
If a satellite with potentially sensitive data or technology on it crashed, and it had a radioactive power source, then I could see the authorities combing the area for months with Geiger counters.
Doesn't even have to be a Russian satellite, finding an American one would be even more valuable. And given the reports of fireballs in the sky, maybe they considered this a possibility?
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954
-
Hi everyone!
In general I like to stick to things that are somewhat credible, like test results from an official lab or observations made by independent sources. Everything else is entertaining but ends up in very “thin” conclusions at best which can easily be ripped apart.
Now don’t get me wrong: I started to look into the radiation in the first place hoping to find indicators for this whole Fireball/E.T. thing – but if logic then points to a boring but sensible conclusion, then that’s the way to go.
Geiger counter: As far as I know this is a dead-end. Nobody knows for sure if there was a Geiger counter and even if so: nobody knows if significant radiation was detected. End of story.
@Missi
Thanks for your fallout remarks! You seem to be way better at this chemistry stuff than I am. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the beta-only fallout in snow/rain was SR-90. I am sure there are more studies on fallout measured in rain/snow at that time in Russia. We only have to find them! : )
I didn’t calculate anything else because this whole calculation is somewhat BS given the many “Let’s say” assumptions in it. But you could make the argument that the other clothes showed less contamination because they had less contact with the water (among a million other possible factors like fabric filtration capabilities etcetc.). Only a test replicating the circumstances would really help. Probably a good idea for the next investigation or film documentary.
Shoe soles: I think neglectable compared to fabric filtering thousands of liters.
@itwasthecia
My hypothesis covers the aspect of inconsistent contamination.
@Monty
Thanks, bro! I consider “geeky” a compliment. : )
Again – for me the Geiger counter is a dead-end, there could be good explanations for bringing one, still it wouldn’t help us.
@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).
Helicopter etc: Yes, yes, all of that is possible, but there is no indication for it.
Internal tissues: That is another sh*t show which has to be looked into: They didn’t come out negative, they just concluded that 8000cpm is normal in a heart due to a comparison sample? Either everybody in Russia at that time was radioactive or Wodka was involved conducting the test? ; )
@sarapuk
Alright. I just wanted to point out that I couldn’t find sources for your statement that Geiger counter levels were measured and “off the scale”. Correct me if I’m wrong. As I’ve said before, I like information that has a source or is at least somewhat credible. : )
@Manti (2nd)
If Santa Clause sniffed radioactive Cocaine and peed over the bodies – that would explain the radiation!!! Yeah, but again, its pure speculation. Look: We have evidence for fallout contamination and a logical explanation for how it may ended up in the clothes. Why looking for further explanations that are pure speculation? : )
Greetingz!!!
-
@Monty:
I think, that's a beautiful compliment. Although I'm not sure, what's so geeky about the analysis...
I currently am reading Die Toten vom Djatlow-Pass: Eines der letzten Geheimnisse des Kalten Krieges (https://smile.amazon.de/gp/product/B06ZZKXKDC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o04?ie=UTF8&psc=1) by Alexej Rakitin (whoever he might really be... or she?) So many of the things I say are based on what I read there during the last few days.
Geiger counter: As far as I know this is a dead-end. Nobody knows for sure if there was a Geiger counter and even if so: nobody knows if significant radiation was detected. End of story.
@Missi
Thanks for your fallout remarks! You seem to be way better at this chemistry stuff than I am. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the beta-only fallout in snow/rain was SR-90. I am sure there are more studies on fallout measured in rain/snow at that time in Russia. We only have to find them! : )
I didn’t calculate anything else because this whole calculation is somewhat BS given the many “Let’s say” assumptions in it. But you could make the argument that the other clothes showed less contamination because they had less contact with the water (among a million other possible factors like fabric filtration capabilities etcetc.). Only a test replicating the circumstances would really help. Probably a good idea for the next investigation or film documentary.
Shoe soles: I think neglectable compared to fabric filtering thousands of liters.
I don't know whether I'm better than you. Basically I just recall a few things from school and verify via Wikipedia. But yes, there should be studies and it'd be very interesting to read them or at least filter the relevant information according our case.
Yes, of course the calculation is somewhat unreliable. But it's an estimate. If under somewhat plausible circumstances the numbers won't show it's probably the wrong way to go. If they do, it's worth looking into it further. That's how I see it.
But indeed, only a true experiment could show resilient results.
My experiences with leather let me think that it's not a good filter material. I'd rather say, the water was flowing around it.
Reading the above mentioned book, I came across the reminder, that also a ground sample from the creek was taken. That was tested negative for radiation. Shouldn't there be radioactive dust in that sample if the radiation was a result of the area being contaminated?
@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).
Helicopter etc: Yes, yes, all of that is possible, but there is no indication for it.
Internal tissues: That is another sh*t show which has to be looked into: They didn’t come out negative, they just concluded that 8000cpm is normal in a heart due to a comparison sample? Either everybody in Russia at that time was radioactive or Wodka was involved conducting the test? ; )
I believe that in the subforum about radiation there's a good explanation, why the conclusion that there being no other than beta-emitters is viable. It was connected to hard and soft radiation and the energy of the respective radiation. Maybe it was also a part of the above-mentioned book. I can't recollect it completely but might try, if it was only in the book and not in the forum.
There is the possibility that the clothes were contaminated post-finding. But what are the odds of only clothes belonging to one of them but being worn by different people collecting the dust?
As for the irrelevance concerning their death: I do think they didn't die of radiation. I also do think that the fact of radiation being present is uncommon enough it might be connected to their demise as in "the reason why they somehow died of other causes than radiation".
-
The analysis is complex and beyond me sadly. But still think it is odd first search no Geiger counter, second search pack the thing.. Does anyone have any thoughts - if the Geiger counter operator had stood above the bodies of the four in the ravine but on top of several metres of snow and turned it on would it register the contamination on the clothes?
-
A few thoughts that may or may not be applicable.
Ivanov was an odd duck. He did seem fixated on the balls of light in the sky, but I believe it was stated previously on the forum that he had also just recently finished a training that had to do with radiation. Whether he did bring the Geiger counter on his own or not, there are too many conflicting reports. And we know Krivonischenko worked at the Chelyabinsk nuclear plant and was part of their clean up after the Kyshtym disaster in 1957. One of the other hikers had worked there at some point. Kolevetov had previously worked in a nuclear lab in Moscow. Kolmogorova lived in a contaminated zone. And we know that this area of the region still tests high for radiation (I.e. Josh Gates testing at the site in 2018.). Gates did tree core samples around the ridge and they did not show any higher than usual radiation for the 1959 year. Does that indicate that there wasn't a singular catastrophic nuclear event on Kholat Syakl that year? I don't know enough about radiation, myself.
It is a mystery with so many variables. I am enjoying this discussion unfold. Thank you for sharing your info and such!!
-
Unfortunately there are contradictions.
I've read once that the area around the tent was highly radioactive.
I've read this once in one single interview said by one single person. Well, I might have read it a few times, but always quoting that interview. It's somewhere on the front site, I believe.
As mentioned before, there's the fact that only one of the first five was buried in a zinc coffin. On the other hand zinc is not really a protection against radiation, rather against leakage.
If I remember correctly, it was Ivanov himself who said in a recent interview, that he believes the site was contaminated and that he was given a wooden box which he believes to have been a geiger counter. And that he did observe the box to have clicked wildly.
There was the argument, that at that time there was only the possibility of live readings, as in once the number on the display disappeared, it was gone and nothing was gained by the measuring.
Whatever was released in Chelyabinsk was a mixture of various emitters. The first years it seems to have been largely gamma-emitters polluting the area, nowadays the most part seems to be indeed beta-emitters to be left. According to the book I mentioned above Krivonischenko was part of the teams that checked the area for highly contaminated parts and for radioactive objects, which then where evacuated, cleaned, destroyed or whatever could be done about them. That he of all people would bring contaminated objects out of the city seems improbable. Plus the rules seem to have been really strict. Appearently it was not only forbidden to take (or keep, for that matter) contaminated objects out of the closed zones, it was also considered treason.
I don't know about Kolmogorova, but I'd suspect that the argument that most of the radiation around the time was gamma, is also valid for her.
I don't know much about Kolevatov as of now.
@KFinn:
Do you refer to the Exploration Unknown episodes when mentioning the tree cores? I was also wondering about that. I know only about one core sample. So this one might be off for some reason. Yet I do believe, they would have taken and tested more than just one. I don't know. Gotta think about that, still.
-
If a satellite with potentially sensitive data or technology on it crashed, and it had a radioactive power source, then I could see the authorities combing the area for months with Geiger counters.
Doesn't even have to be a Russian satellite, finding an American one would be even more valuable. And given the reports of fireballs in the sky, maybe they considered this a possibility?
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954
But the Searchers were not looking for crashed Satellites, they were looking for the Dyatlov Group.
-
Hi everyone!
In general I like to stick to things that are somewhat credible, like test results from an official lab or observations made by independent sources. Everything else is entertaining but ends up in very “thin” conclusions at best which can easily be ripped apart.
Now don’t get me wrong: I started to look into the radiation in the first place hoping to find indicators for this whole Fireball/E.T. thing – but if logic then points to a boring but sensible conclusion, then that’s the way to go.
Geiger counter: As far as I know this is a dead-end. Nobody knows for sure if there was a Geiger counter and even if so: nobody knows if significant radiation was detected. End of story.
@Missi
Thanks for your fallout remarks! You seem to be way better at this chemistry stuff than I am. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the beta-only fallout in snow/rain was SR-90. I am sure there are more studies on fallout measured in rain/snow at that time in Russia. We only have to find them! : )
I didn’t calculate anything else because this whole calculation is somewhat BS given the many “Let’s say” assumptions in it. But you could make the argument that the other clothes showed less contamination because they had less contact with the water (among a million other possible factors like fabric filtration capabilities etcetc.). Only a test replicating the circumstances would really help. Probably a good idea for the next investigation or film documentary.
Shoe soles: I think neglectable compared to fabric filtering thousands of liters.
@itwasthecia
My hypothesis covers the aspect of inconsistent contamination.
@Monty
Thanks, bro! I consider “geeky” a compliment. : )
Again – for me the Geiger counter is a dead-end, there could be good explanations for bringing one, still it wouldn’t help us.
@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).
Helicopter etc: Yes, yes, all of that is possible, but there is no indication for it.
Internal tissues: That is another sh*t show which has to be looked into: They didn’t come out negative, they just concluded that 8000cpm is normal in a heart due to a comparison sample? Either everybody in Russia at that time was radioactive or Wodka was involved conducting the test? ; )
@sarapuk
Alright. I just wanted to point out that I couldn’t find sources for your statement that Geiger counter levels were measured and “off the scale”. Correct me if I’m wrong. As I’ve said before, I like information that has a source or is at least somewhat credible. : )
@Manti (2nd)
If Santa Clause sniffed radioactive Cocaine and peed over the bodies – that would explain the radiation!!! Yeah, but again, its pure speculation. Look: We have evidence for fallout contamination and a logical explanation for how it may ended up in the clothes. Why looking for further explanations that are pure speculation? : )
Greetingz!!!
Well Ivanov said that he used a Geiger Counter. Ivanov was the Leading Investigator.
-
The analysis is complex and beyond me sadly. But still think it is odd first search no Geiger counter, second search pack the thing.. Does anyone have any thoughts - if the Geiger counter operator had stood above the bodies of the four in the ravine but on top of several metres of snow and turned it on would it register the contamination on the clothes?
The Geiger Counters used in the USSR in 1959 were fairly heavy duty types not the sensitive instruments we can have these days. I have a modern Digital Geiger Counter of the type that is used in the Chernobyl area. Its very sensitive. If there was only faint Radiation Levels then the old USSR type would be unlikely to Detect to any great depth. Probes were the preferred search tools.
-
A few thoughts that may or may not be applicable.
Ivanov was an odd duck. He did seem fixated on the balls of light in the sky, but I believe it was stated previously on the forum that he had also just recently finished a training that had to do with radiation. Whether he did bring the Geiger counter on his own or not, there are too many conflicting reports. And we know Krivonischenko worked at the Chelyabinsk nuclear plant and was part of their clean up after the Kyshtym disaster in 1957. One of the other hikers had worked there at some point. Kolevetov had previously worked in a nuclear lab in Moscow. Kolmogorova lived in a contaminated zone. And we know that this area of the region still tests high for radiation (I.e. Josh Gates testing at the site in 2018.). Gates did tree core samples around the ridge and they did not show any higher than usual radiation for the 1959 year. Does that indicate that there wasn't a singular catastrophic nuclear event on Kholat Syakl that year? I don't know enough about radiation, myself.
It is a mystery with so many variables. I am enjoying this discussion unfold. Thank you for sharing your info and such!!
Ivanov was the Leading Investigator. He was stating that Fireballs or UFO's ie Unidentified Flying Objects were seen in that part of Siberia around the time of the Incident.
-
A few thoughts that may or may not be applicable.
Ivanov was an odd duck. He did seem fixated on the balls of light in the sky, but I believe it was stated previously on the forum that he had also just recently finished a training that had to do with radiation. Whether he did bring the Geiger counter on his own or not, there are too many conflicting reports. And we know Krivonischenko worked at the Chelyabinsk nuclear plant and was part of their clean up after the Kyshtym disaster in 1957. One of the other hikers had worked there at some point. Kolevetov had previously worked in a nuclear lab in Moscow. Kolmogorova lived in a contaminated zone. And we know that this area of the region still tests high for radiation (I.e. Josh Gates testing at the site in 2018.). Gates did tree core samples around the ridge and they did not show any higher than usual radiation for the 1959 year. Does that indicate that there wasn't a singular catastrophic nuclear event on Kholat Syakl that year? I don't know enough about radiation, myself.
It is a mystery with so many variables. I am enjoying this discussion unfold. Thank you for sharing your info and such!!
Ivanov was the Leading Investigator. He was stating that Fireballs or UFO's ie Unidentified Flying Objects were seen in that part of Siberia around the time of the Incident.
Yes. Those are the balls of light I was referring to.
-
If a satellite with potentially sensitive data or technology on it crashed, and it had a radioactive power source, then I could see the authorities combing the area for months with Geiger counters.
Doesn't even have to be a Russian satellite, finding an American one would be even more valuable. And given the reports of fireballs in the sky, maybe they considered this a possibility?
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954)
But the Searchers were not looking for crashed Satellites, they were looking for the Dyatlov Group.
I'm not sure.
Of course the students from UPI were looking for the Dyatlov Group.
The military continued searching the area including with metal detectors, for months after the students all returned home.
The rest of the dead were there nearby, under the snow in the ravine, with pens in their pockets, a camera (or just it's case?), watches on their wrists, etc. things a metal detector would presumably detect. Yet they were not found.
It might be that the soldiers just didn't do their job properly...
-
@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).
Well the report says that a "BFA-25 meter" was used in the "lab" to detect the radiation.I haven't been able to find any information about this, but if this was a Geiger counter, even modern ones aren't usable for differentiating between α and β radiation.
And maybe you're right and alpha and gamma radiation was not "detected". The first time I read this report I interpreted it as these were "not measured", but indeed it says "detected".
It also says at the end "Expert: chief radiologist of the city of Levashov (Signed)"
Levashov is a name, presumably the radiologist's. It's not a city. Just added this to point out that these documents are not exact word by word. And we also don't know what kind of laboratory this test was done in. If this is from the chief radiologist of Sverdlovsk, I would look at it differently compared to a report from the chief radiologist of Ivdel, for example. Just because they must have had very different means and budgets.
And finally, here's a map of the fallout contamination from the Kyshtim incident:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Map_of_the_East_Urals_Radioactive_Trace.png)
This seems to have missed the northern Urals.
Or is the hypothesis that the dust is from high altitude nuclear tests? Wouldn't that be evenly distributed around the globe i.e. wouldn't we have findings from the US UK France China and so on, the nuclear powers, about significantly contaminated snowmelt? I'd assume this would be a risk for example in agriculture, farmed fish etc.
-
If a satellite with potentially sensitive data or technology on it crashed, and it had a radioactive power source, then I could see the authorities combing the area for months with Geiger counters.
Doesn't even have to be a Russian satellite, finding an American one would be even more valuable. And given the reports of fireballs in the sky, maybe they considered this a possibility?
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954)
But the Searchers were not looking for crashed Satellites, they were looking for the Dyatlov Group.
I'm not sure.
Of course the students from UPI were looking for the Dyatlov Group.
The military continued searching the area including with metal detectors, for months after the students all returned home.
The rest of the dead were there nearby, under the snow in the ravine, with pens in their pockets, a camera (or just it's case?), watches on their wrists, etc. things a metal detector would presumably detect. Yet they were not found.
It might be that the soldiers just didn't do their job properly...
Well if you have ever used a Metal Detector you will know just how difficult they can be to use, especially the old Military Types. Ive got a Military Detector as usd by NATO Forces in Europe towards the end of the so called Cold War. Its crude, and thats putting it bluntly. Ive also got a variety of Metal Detectors, much more sophisticated. Point is it was a big area to search in very difficult conditions. Easy to miss something.
-
@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).
Well the report says that a "BFA-25 meter" was used in the "lab" to detect the radiation.I haven't been able to find any information about this, but if this was a Geiger counter, even modern ones aren't usable for differentiating between α and β radiation.
And maybe you're right and alpha and gamma radiation was not "detected". The first time I read this report I interpreted it as these were "not measured", but indeed it says "detected".
It also says at the end "Expert: chief radiologist of the city of Levashov (Signed)"
Levashov is a name, presumably the radiologist's. It's not a city. Just added this to point out that these documents are not exact word by word. And we also don't know what kind of laboratory this test was done in. If this is from the chief radiologist of Sverdlovsk, I would look at it differently compared to a report from the chief radiologist of Ivdel, for example. Just because they must have had very different means and budgets.
And finally, here's a map of the fallout contamination from the Kyshtim incident:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Map_of_the_East_Urals_Radioactive_Trace.png)
This seems to have missed the northern Urals.
Or is the hypothesis that the dust is from high altitude nuclear tests? Wouldn't that be evenly distributed around the globe i.e. wouldn't we have findings from the US UK France China and so on, the nuclear powers, about significantly contaminated snowmelt? I'd assume this would be a risk for example in agriculture, farmed fish etc.
Problem is that you then encounter Natural Radiation which as you probably know is all around us. Natural Radiation varies from place to place and sometimes its hard to differentiate between that and say small amounts of Radiation from Nuclear Tests etc.
-
Levashov, according to the book by Rakitin, was working in Sverdlovsk. But he also states, that the institute for which Levashov was working was a strange choice to conduct the test at. I don't know.
As for the kyshtym fallout:
Yes, it did miss the northern urals. I never tried to argument that way, neither did Felix. Our idea was, that maybe someone brought contaminated clothes from the area the fallout hit to Cholat Sjachl. Yet this is not very probable for the fallout in that time consisted of many gamma quanta. Therefore the radiation detected on the clothes of our group should have those as well.
Another idea was, that there was old fallout from before the time of the moratorium, that had decayed to that extend, that only beta-emitters were left. I don't know enough to guess the probability.
It is a fact, though, that not only the fallout of soviet nuclear tests, but also those of other countries nuclear tests was distributed around the globe in different amounts. As far as I know, there are indicators showing, that people around a certain age get a lot of cancer. Those are people, who were children when the overground tests were widely conducted. People that same age didn't get as often cancer before those generations. At least that is what I've been told. I didn't read studies researching that part.
-
Guys, in my initial posting I presented EVIDENCE that high levels of radioactive contamination were measured in rivers all over the USSR from 1960 onwards due to dozens of nuclear test detonations.
(The study started in 1960 but due to the ban treaty even the levels of 1960 were a result of the same 86(!) nuclear bombs detonated before the Dyatlov incident happened.)
In posting #8 I presented another study showing that fallout contaminated rain was even measured in the Netherlands in 1959 as a result of the same nuclear tests conducted by the USSR.
WE KNOW THE RADIATION WAS IN THE WATER AND WE KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM.
That’s why I find ticking wooden boxes, helicopters, satellites or radioactive cocaine entertaining, but as long as they are speculation, they are not really helping.
Our best chance so far seems to be finding further studies on the fallout contamination of water/snow in 1959 in the USSR or near the Dyatlov pass. : )
In this summary for example there are some 50 study references to go through. ; )
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287069767_The_Legacies_of_Soviet_Nuclear_Testing_in_Kazakhstan_Fallout_Public_Health_and_Societal_Issues
No front and best regards!
Felix
-
In general I want to apologize for being a source- and evidence-nazi, but when handling a case as complex as this one – those things are your best friends if you don’t want to go crazy or present conclusions that cannot be taken seriously by anyone.
@Missi
The ground sample sounds very interesting. Do you have a source or further info on that? ; )
I’m also very interested in the 8000cpm in a heart being normal. I will look into that at times.
As for the relevance of the radiation concerning their deaths: To me it is no longer relevant if there is a logical and plausible explanation why it wasn’t relevant. ; ) But hey – my hypothesis isn’t bullet-proof yet – so who knows! : )
@KFinn
“And we know that this area of the region still tests high for radiation (I.e. Josh Gates testing at the site in 2018.)” – Interesting, and with a source! I will look into that. Thanks!! : )
@Missi 2
“the institute for which Levashov was working was a strange choice to conduct the test at”
-Interesting. Further info on why? Source? : )
-
By the way, I wasn't speculating about what the source of the radiation might be, but why a radiology report could have been ordered by the criminal investigator.
Maybe he was just in the dark and testing every idea?
-
Unfortunately there are contradictions.
I've read once that the area around the tent was highly radioactive.
I've read this once in one single interview said by one single person. Well, I might have read it a few times, but always quoting that interview. It's somewhere on the front site, I believe.
As mentioned before, there's the fact that only one of the first five was buried in a zinc coffin. On the other hand zinc is not really a protection against radiation, rather against leakage.
If I remember correctly, it was Ivanov himself who said in a recent interview, that he believes the site was contaminated and that he was given a wooden box which he believes to have been a geiger counter. And that he did observe the box to have clicked wildly.
There was the argument, that at that time there was only the possibility of live readings, as in once the number on the display disappeared, it was gone and nothing was gained by the measuring.
Whatever was released in Chelyabinsk was a mixture of various emitters. The first years it seems to have been largely gamma-emitters polluting the area, nowadays the most part seems to be indeed beta-emitters to be left. According to the book I mentioned above Krivonischenko was part of the teams that checked the area for highly contaminated parts and for radioactive objects, which then where evacuated, cleaned, destroyed or whatever could be done about them. That he of all people would bring contaminated objects out of the city seems improbable. Plus the rules seem to have been really strict. Appearently it was not only forbidden to take (or keep, for that matter) contaminated objects out of the closed zones, it was also considered treason.
I don't know about Kolmogorova, but I'd suspect that the argument that most of the radiation around the time was gamma, is also valid for her.
I don't know much about Kolevatov as of now.
@KFinn:
Do you refer to the Exploration Unknown episodes when mentioning the tree cores? I was also wondering about that. I know only about one core sample. So this one might be off for some reason. Yet I do believe, they would have taken and tested more than just one. I don't know. Gotta think about that, still.
Some things you may find of interest...
Regarding Yuri Krivonischenko being the only one of the first four bodies buried in a zinc coffin and in a different cemetery, there is an interview with his brother on this site that can help you understand. The zinc coffin was because the family feared he would have radioactive clothing from the clean up at Chalyabinsk. At the same time, his mother still kept a suitcase with his recovered belongings under her bed, which worried the family greatly. Coincidentally, it seemed his coffin remained closed because his father did not want the rest of the family seeing Yuri dead. He never talked about what Yuri looked like or the incident at all to anyone. You let the dead lie kind of mind frame. Also, His brother attributes his father's connections with top govt officials as to why Yuri was buried in the other cemetery.
Here is the interview with Krivo's brother:
https://dyatlovpass.com/konstantin-krivonischenko?rbid=18461
Now, compare that to Zolotaryev who was buried in what must have been a wood coffin or something (perhaps Vietnamka (Galina Sazonova) can correct this as she was there for the exhumation, ) as it seemed he was just lying in dirt covered with rocks. If there were fear about radiation from the river contaminating the bodies, would he not have been in a zinc coffin?
Just points to ponder.
-
By the way, I wasn't speculating about what the source of the radiation might be, but why a radiology report could have been ordered by the criminal investigator.
Maybe he was just in the dark and testing every idea?
I hope you didn't feel offended. I get that speculation is fun and part of the reason many people are here.
As for me personally, I want to find out stuff that can actually contribute to solving the case. Because that's even more fun!
Let's have a look at "why a radiology report could have been ordered by the criminal investigator."
a) he was just in the dark and testing every idea -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
b) he thought a dirty government secret had something to do with it -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
c) he was ordered to do so because of Kyshtim -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
d) it was just standard procedure -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
e) he told a lawyer who told another lawyer that the clothes were glowing -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
f) ..... -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
g) ... -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
z) . -> radiation from nuclear tests is evident.
So whatever answer you will get, it will not change the facts that are truly relevant.
Same goes for the Geiger counter, the zync coffin, etcetc as long as no strong evidence is involved.
Now that doesn't mean that my hopethesis is proven and that we shouldn't look any further - but whatever we come up with from now on should include evidence or a better explanation than we already have or at least it should lead somewhere (imho). That is, of course - if we're interested in relevant investigative work.
: )
-
There's a paper on strontium filtration here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7334999/
It's over my head but section 3 says "...strontium did not precipitate out of the test water without the addition of coagulants" which doesn't sound very encouraging.
Might be worth emailing the author of the paper, Alissa J. O'Donnell, with your question. Unfortunately she's not listed in the University of Cincinnati staff contacts, maybe it was just a student thesis.
-
Ash! Now that is something! okey1
The study itself seems to rely on chemical removal of Strontium whereas my hypothesis relies on mechanical filtration of dust containing it, so two different things - but it is still GREAT information!!!
And: It references other studies that tried filtering! I will look into it right away! AWESOME!
: )
Come on, people! We can do it!!! We can solve this Mofo!!!
-
Hi everyone!
Alright, I dumped another few hours into this thing (despite having to work;) and found some interesting information, but nothing conclusive.
I found a fantastic document from the IAEA going into great detail about radioactive fallout and what is known about it, see page 34 and following:
https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/TE_1663_web.pdf
The good news:
-Fallout particles can indeed be (and are) mechanically filtered by fine meshes (filters) of various kinds and shapes. But due to more effective and precise techniques available, there doesn’t seem to be data on regular clothing being used as fallout filters (who would have thought! :O)
Quote:
“In contrast to bulk samples, radioactive particles retained on filter membranes are relatively easy to identify. Unfortunately, there are few published articles on radioactive particles in aqueous systems, especially about colloids which do not settle under the force of gravity.”
All in all I conclude:
-It is evident that precipitation (solid/rain/snow) in and around Russia in that time showed radioactive fallout contamination as a result of nuclear test detonations.
-It is evident that rivers all round Russia in that time showed radioactive beta fallout contamination as a result of nuclear test detonations.
-It is evident that radioactive fallout particles can be mechanically filtered by fine meshes.
-It is likely that common clothing could be capable of filtering those particles in sufficient amounts to explain the radiation later measrured, but there is no data, no proof (yet!).
Only a test (or somebody finding better data!) could provide certainty.
Still, to me my original hypothesis gives the best and most logical explanation so far for the Dyatlov radiation mystery. If I can convince a lab to run a test which then shows positive results, I will publish an article putting all the other theories to rest for good. ; )
Anyone having an uncle working in a nuclear fallout test lab? ; )
As a matter of fact I interviewed the Director-General and high level scientists from the Joint Research Centre a couple of years ago. Maybe the JRC is willing to spend some money on this test as a publicity stunt. I will reach out to them.
Best regards!
Felix
-
Yes, Felix, you're right, we're straying further from the facts towards speculation. I'm sorry.
Here are some facts:
The radiation tests were conducted by the sanitary epidemiological station of the city Swerdlowsk. According to Rakitin Ivanov mentioned in an interview in 1990 that he also had a meeting with scientists of UFAW (the part of the academy of sciences lodged in the urals region) which isn't mentioned in the files at all. He (Rakitin) also put to question, why the tests hadn't been conducted at a lab with better hardware and suggested another, which I can't find in the book at the moment.
Anyhow, the radiation detector used by the lab (as stated be Rakitin) was called TISS. I couldn't find anything about it, though.
The radiation lab results (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?lid=1) as shown on this site name the detector as STS-6. The report states the test of a soil sample and resulting 96cpm, which is about the background radiation stated in the same report. I'm not quite sure though, if that was indeed soil taken from the mountain underneath one of the victims or rather soil found on the clothes of one of them.
But I think, one of the search reports stated it was taken from the earth itself, can't find that right now, though.
-
Hey!
Thanks! Let's hope the guys in the lab knew what they were doing - because their results are everything we have. ; )
The soil sample is interesting but doesn't seem to allow for conclusions - what do you think?
And guys! I'm sorry if I accidentally shut down the conversation here. I thought people would enjoy credible findings or that I’m now reaching out to scientists for conducting a test in order to contribute to solving the Dyatlov case?! Isn’t that what you want??
My lectures on speculation and investigative work were meant to help people to better focus their research on a potentially useful output. And I wanted people to actually help me – which some of you did!!
I’m happy with the findings and I will back off from now on, also from criticizing people for speculating. ; )
FIRE AWAY and enjoy the conversation! : )
Best regards!
Felix
-
I think I have read in an interview with one member of the search party, that the soil sample was taken from the "riverbed", so in my opinion it's relevant. I also believe, that this is an indicator for the radiation being found on the clothes is not from the overall contamination due to bomb testing, accidents and general mishandling of nuclear material, because that should be in the clothes as well as the "riverbed", if it was transported by the flowing water and earlier on by the snow.
But I'm no expert and those statements are only my understanding of these things. They would have to be put to test before being sure.
Besides that: I love speculation, but it has to be credible to be enjoyable.
-
The study itself seems to rely on chemical removal of Strontium whereas my hypothesis relies on mechanical filtration of dust containing it, so two different things
One thing to consider is what form does strontium 90 exist in water. From reading the paper I understood it to be dissolved but you're suggesting it can exist on the surface of a particle of dust, which is then filtered mechnically. The tests they did of the clothes did show a reduction after "washing" (they don't say what water they used, maybe distilled?) so you might be right. Also the holes in the warp/weft of clothing will be quite large so it would only collect large particles (I would guess over 100 microns).
I'd suggest try and get in touch with one of the authors of the papers you found, and ask them the question. They might find it interesting if you tell them what it's about.
-
Dr. Curious, something you may find of interest here... This is a snippet from an interview in 2007-2008 with Sharavin, one of the student searchers:
AK: Now it’s not possible to find out, but Matveeva seems to have written that they got them before the prosecutor’s arrival?
MSh: No, in my opinion they didn’t go there, they were waiting. They waited for two days and were inquiring, judging by the radiograms ... So, in my opinion, they didn’t go there, maybe just one, or something... Yes, one, it seems...
YK: Well, this question is really for those who were there. If Suvorov, it will be necessary to contact him.
MSh: Yes, he will surely have some clearer memories, because he himself was present there. Moreover, he got sick there ... well, not right away, after that he got sick. He had a suspicion that due to contaminated water, they linked his disease with the environment.
Full interview: https://dyatlovpass.com/sharavin-1?rbid=18461
-
@Missi
A statement from a search team member doesn't outweigh multiple scientific tests. At least for me it doesn't.
@Ash
Quote from the study you posted:
"X-ray diffraction analysis suggested that strontium was likely incorporated in the calcium carbonate crystal lattice (...)"
This whole fallout particle topic is so complex (the IAEA topic overview has 90 pages) that I refuse to make concrete statements outside quoting studies. xD
According to the IAEA paper fallout particles that are spread through the atmosphere (which is the case for the Dyatlov case due to the distance to the test sites) have a size between 0.1 - 64 microns.
But as far as I understand they then can attach themselves to bigger particles etc.etc.
@KFinn
Huh? What's that all about? I will take a look at it right away, thanks!!
Edit: OK I did. That for sure is interesting. I don't know if it is plausible that fallout particles would make you sick instantly but still - this suspicion alone is interesting! Thanks for pointing it out!
-
Sometimes pictures speak louder than words. : )
"According to the IAEA paper fallout particles that are spread through the atmosphere (which is the case for the Dyatlov case due to the distance to the test sites) have a size between 0.1 - 64 microns.
This is a picture of <50 micron particles:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41L9coh%2BvFL._AC_.jpg)
This is a picture of a 50 micron filter:
(https://www.apoolco.at/media/image/71/ec/ca/9995430-assy_600x600.jpg)
Now imagine over a million litres containing this powder going through clothing...
I cant wait for the test! I'm sure this is possible! dance1
-
Dr. Curious, something you may find of interest here... This is a snippet from an interview in 2007-2008 with Sharavin, one of the student searchers:
AK: Now it’s not possible to find out, but Matveeva seems to have written that they got them before the prosecutor’s arrival?
MSh: No, in my opinion they didn’t go there, they were waiting. They waited for two days and were inquiring, judging by the radiograms ... So, in my opinion, they didn’t go there, maybe just one, or something... Yes, one, it seems...
YK: Well, this question is really for those who were there. If Suvorov, it will be necessary to contact him.
MSh: Yes, he will surely have some clearer memories, because he himself was present there. Moreover, he got sick there ... well, not right away, after that he got sick. He had a suspicion that due to contaminated water, they linked his disease with the environment.
Full interview: https://dyatlovpass.com/sharavin-1?rbid=18461
That sure is interesting. Didn't come across that one, yet.
@Missi
A statement from a search team member doesn't outweigh multiple scientific tests. At least for me it doesn't.
You're right, I'd say so as well. But I think you won't find a scientific test telling you were and when the sample was taken. I fear you will be forced to rely on the testimony of those who have taken it or were close at the time of taking.
At least I have not found anything better and more reliable concerning the question were the soil sample was taken. dunno1
-
Full interview: https://dyatlovpass.com/sharavin-1?rbid=18461
How old was he when he did that interview? It's interesting how they incorporate their own theories into the facts, I can imagine in the evenings of the search there will have been a lot of gossip around the campfires.
Interesting he mentions 7 or 8 thick branches in the den that had been cut by an axe... but they didn't have an axe. I'm also curious about the thick branches on the cedar fire, they wouldn't break easily. All they had were pocket knives.
-
This way or another, the interview took place about 48 years after the incident happened. That's a pretty long time and the memory can be deceiving. Whatever he might think has happened will influence his memories, making them fit to his hypothesis, so after all these years, he's probably not that trustworthy after all. Not to accuse him of lying, I don't think he's lying in the sense of consciously telling something wrong.
-
This way or another, the interview took place about 48 years after the incident happened. That's a pretty long time and the memory can be deceiving. Whatever he might think has happened will influence his memories, making them fit to his hypothesis, so after all these years, he's probably not that trustworthy after all. Not to accuse him of lying, I don't think he's lying in the sense of consciously telling something wrong.
All witness testimony is subject to inaccuracy; its like standing around a statue. I see one side, you see the other, but none of us see the whole statue. That is why you have to confirm with other witnesses, evidence, etc. Take for example the nurse who helped in the morgue. By the time she was being interviewed, she had dementia and fifty years had passed. But, her story stayed consistent every time she told it. Was she reliable? No. Was her story, however? Its plausible. Rakitin, whom I believe you've been reading, wrote his books in the 1990's. Is he reliable? He had an agenda, certainly. That doesn't make him reliable or not reliable. It adds to the overall picture.
In the case of DPI, you have to continue digging. You have to continue reading statements, interviews, etc. You will not come to the same conclusions that I do and vice versa. We are looking at this from different sides of the statue. You have to consider *everything* everyone says and be willing to throw out *everything* that everyone says. Its discernment.
-
That's certainly true, what you say. All I wanted to say was, that while an interview conducted in 1959 might be subjective it can be expected to be more accurate than one conducted in say 2009, when in addition to the subjectivity there's also the change in memory that happens during the years, especially if you have your own theory as to what might have happened and you unconsciously bend your memory to fit your theory.
By the way: Although dementia makes people forget details and therefor changes their stories, there's also the possibility of stories staying coherent once in a state of dementia.
Example:
My grandma suffered from dementia (although I'm not quite sure if in the end it wasn't rather us suffering from her dementia than she herself, but that's another topic completely...). She used to tell us stories from when she was a child, going on hikes with her stepfather. I loved those stories a lot and encouraged her to tell them. When her dementia started, she told often the same stories until I knew them by heart. I was aghast when suddenly she spoke of herself as a little blonde girl although all her life she had been brunette (until her hair got grey and was colored blonde). But besides that fact and the increase in frequency of her telling the same stories, those stories stayed consistent and didn't change.
That being said: I wouldn't take a consistency in storytelling as a sign to prove against dementia. It's just a lack of a sign for dementia.
As for Rakitin: The more I read the less reliable I consider him. He complains about people leaving facts out of their theories because those don't fit. Yet there are many things he leaves out and doesn't mention. Not sure whether he just considers them as unimportant or whether they kill his theory. For example he mentions the part of the autopsy in which was stated that Ljuda was a virgin, leaves out the part stating the same about Zina. But then he doesn't make a case about the incident having anything to do with the women at all, so maybe he just doesn't care. It leaves me suspicious nonetheless.
-
That's certainly true, what you say. All I wanted to say was, that while an interview conducted in 1959 might be subjective it can be expected to be more accurate than one conducted in say 2009, when in addition to the subjectivity there's also the change in memory that happens during the years, especially if you have your own theory as to what might have happened and you unconsciously bend your memory to fit your theory.
By the way: Although dementia makes people forget details and therefor changes their stories, there's also the possibility of stories staying coherent once in a state of dementia.
Example:
My grandma suffered from dementia (although I'm not quite sure if in the end it wasn't rather us suffering from her dementia than she herself, but that's another topic completely...). She used to tell us stories from when she was a child, going on hikes with her stepfather. I loved those stories a lot and encouraged her to tell them. When her dementia started, she told often the same stories until I knew them by heart. I was aghast when suddenly she spoke of herself as a little blonde girl although all her life she had been brunette (until her hair got grey and was colored blonde). But besides that fact and the increase in frequency of her telling the same stories, those stories stayed consistent and didn't change.
That being said: I wouldn't take a consistency in storytelling as a sign to prove against dementia. It's just a lack of a sign for dementia.
As for Rakitin: The more I read the less reliable I consider him. He complains about people leaving facts out of their theories because those don't fit. Yet there are many things he leaves out and doesn't mention. Not sure whether he just considers them as unimportant or whether they kill his theory. For example he mentions the part of the autopsy in which was stated that Ljuda was a virgin, leaves out the part stating the same about Zina. But then he doesn't make a case about the incident having anything to do with the women at all, so maybe he just doesn't care. It leaves me suspicious nonetheless.
This is why discernment is so important. There us useful information to be gained from everyone, if you can limit the background noise. There are books out there on DPI that have some really erroneous claims. But, they still have some factual information. You have to keep digging to find out if it is useful or not, but you cannot completely disavow everything because it contains mistakes. You sift through, research, find the primary sources and decide whether it is important or not. Yes, Sharavin's later interview was in 2007-2008. His earlier interview was in 2000, still decades later. But, his story has not changed since he found the tent with Slobstov and the first two bodies under the cedar tree with Koptelev. And because he was a primary source, he still has useful information. He added to his story as more information came out, such as his fellow peer getting (what I assume is) cancer, which at least they believe is from radiation at Dyatlov Pass. So, we dig deeper and see what we can find on his friend. He is in several pictures from the search in 1959. We know he was on the pass at the end of April and took part in finding the last four bodies. So, now we try to find out more about him; is he still alive? Does he have relatives who are open to discussion? Has anyone here on the forum spoken to him or have an interview with him? There may be nothing to it; it could be completely a dead end. But, it would be a data point on the theme of the original discussion topic.
In my career, we focused a lot on patterns of behavior. Everything has one, whether its a person or weather or animal or machine. Even something totally unpredictable has a pattern in that it behaves randomly; you can rely on that or it wouldn't be unpredictable. Matching evidence via interviews and witness testimonies is a big part of following a pattern of behavior. Sharavin says A. Does anyone else say A, too? We go back to the case files to look. Grigoriev's notes are really interesting in that he writes down almost everything he hears and thinks. What about Koptelev who was with Sharavin? What can we find about what he has to say? If he says the same thing, and perhaps Grigoriev heard it, too, there is a pattern we can start tracking to decide if there is something relevant or not. We do have witness statements from Slobstov. What does he corroborate?
I find it interesting that Ivanov never got a witness statement from Sharavin. Now, Sharavin was hospitalized at the tail end of April but Ivanov had almost two months before that to get a witness statement from him. He found the first two bodies and yet, no testimony...
-
You put that in beautiful words.
And indeed, that is an interesting point in the story... Also: Is known why he went to hospital?
-
Also: Is known why he went to hospital?
He decided to go skiing one lunch time during the search, smacked into a tree and gave himself concussion.
-
He should have thought that decision over, it seems.
But it also seems nothing mystery-related. Too late to send recovery wishes, though... Seems he got well again.
Thanks for the info. :)
-
Yeah, he needed a break, it was a great day, so he talked some of the other guys into doing some sight seeing. They'd been really have a rough time on the ridge for so long, looking for friends they knew were dead after finding other friends dead. He just wanted to go do one of the things that made him feel happy; skiing. And they would up in an area, like many up there, that was not easy to navigate.
-
Nuclear fission products include a lot more than just Sr-90. Yes, Cs-137 is a beta emitter. But it decays to a metastable isotope of barium which gives off a characteristic 662 keV gamma, so Cs-137 should be considered both a beta and gamma emitter. Cs-137 is going to be found alongside Sr-90 in any nuclear fallout. Today, both Sr-90 and Cs-137 are in ample abundance in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. The Mayak accident released significant Cs-137. It is not possible that any significant products of nuclear fission would be beta-only.
I need to note that Geiger tubes are not terribly sensitive to gammas; they have a poor gamma detection efficiency. By comparison, Geiger tubes that are sensitive to betas typically have very high counting efficiency. So I can't completely rule out fission products. It is possible that the clothing is just barely hot enough with betas to be easily detected, but not hot enough for its gamma activity to be detected by Geiger counters with limited gamma efficiency. A more sensitive gamma detector, like a scintillator, would easily detect gammas that would be expected from fallout that also produces this much beta emission. So when the radiation was classified as beta-only, I am very interested in what instruments they used to rule out gamma. I would say fission products are possible if and only if the dosimetry lab had poor gamma detection instruments and the clothing fell in a rather narrow window of activity. Still, I don't see it as very likely.
You can actually purchase the same Geiger tubes used to measure the clothing. I interpret "Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces." as meaning a counter with 4 STS-6 tubes surrounded by lead to cut down on background radiation. (The English term is "lead castle.") STS-6 tubes show up on eBay. They are sensitive to gamma and hard beta. Here is a datasheet (in Russian): http://lampes-et-tubes.info/rd/STS-6.pdf
While atmospheric testing did result in global contamination, I find it very unlikely that clothing in running water would act as a filter and concentrate it to the levels mentioned in the reports, and do so to such an extent that beta but not gamma would be countable.
Beta-only radiation also firmly excludes theories of contamination from the abandoned mining camp. Any minerals containing uranium are going to be alpha, beta, and gamma emitters. An alpha scintillator, or simply using a mica pancake probe with and without a paper shield, would easily detect the abundant alphas emitted by uranium. This also rules out thorium contamination from a lantern mantle; that's also an alpha emitter.
I've also heard people suggest that Krivonischenko's work at Mayak, or Kolevatov's work at a secret institute in Moscow, could have resulted in them having contaminated clothing. That seems unlikely, seeing as:
1. Nuclear facilities, even in the USSR, go out of their way to avoid contaminating worker clothing. You typically change out of your street clothing and into clean work clothing at the start of your shift, and strip out of it and shower at the end, precisely so you don't contaminate clothing you wear home.
2. Even if there were a failure, and one of them "took their work home with them", is it likely that the same contaminated work clothing would then be worn on an expedition in the Urals?
3. Even if that were the case, all four of the hikers found in the ravine had varying levels of contamination on their clothing, which I can't explain via this mechanism.
It seems most likely to me that some time after all the hikers had assembled together, and before the bodies were found, those four (at a minimum) were contaminated with a beta-only emitter.
-
I'm just getting started on Rakitin's book, there's a lot of detail!
He eliminates the water being contaminated because soil taken from in the stream tested negative. He also eliminates the clothes being contaminated at work, but I'm not yet 100% convinced because Krivonischenko quit due to conditions, so there may have been safety breaches.
He believes the clothes contained a sample of radioactive particles to be passed on to American spies so they could determine the efficiency of USSR nuclear plants; and he mentions an example where this had been done before in a similar fashion with a hat.
What are people's views on the feasibility, given the levels and types of radiation recorded?
-
Ryan, all the clothes contaminated did belong to Krivonischenko, as far as I know.
ash, I think there are very interesting parts in his book. I don't believe all of that. He criticizes that people leave out aspects they can't fit into their theories, yet he doesn't mention things I read here. Not sure whether he didn't think they were relevant or whether he just couldn't fit them...
-
Ryan, all the clothes contaminated did belong to Krivonischenko, as far as I know.
While the radiation report highlighted three pieces of clothing as being especially contaminated above occupational safety levels, all nine clothing samples tested from the four hikers found in the ravine were significantly contaminated. This includes Kolevatov's waistband and bottom part of his trousers, something unspecified and a sheepskin jacket from Zolotaryov, bottom part of trousers from Thibault-Brignoles, and jacket, leggings, white sweater, and brown sweater from Dubinina.
Radioactive contamination can't just spread from one piece of clothing to another without some physical mechanism. This is why I have a hard time believing that Krivonischenko's occupation at Mayak was responsible for all this contamination, even if there were safety breaches.
He believes the clothes contained a sample of radioactive particles to be passed on to American spies so they could determine the efficiency of USSR nuclear plants; and he mentions an example where this had been done before in a similar fashion with a hat.
What are people's views on the feasibility, given the levels and types of radiation recorded?
Intentionally contaminating a single piece of clothing would be a very good way for a worker to sneak a radioactive sample out of a secure facility. If detected, the worker could always claim it was an accident. That kind of deniability would be impossible if the worker were caught leaving with a vial or test tube of the substance.
But here, 9 pieces of clothing worn by 4 hikers are all contaminated. That doesn't sound like an intentional way for spies to transport samples.
-
Ryan, all the clothes contaminated did belong to Krivonischenko, as far as I know.
While the radiation report highlighted three pieces of clothing as being especially contaminated above occupational safety levels, all nine clothing samples tested from the four hikers found in the ravine were significantly contaminated. This includes Kolevatov's waistband and bottom part of his trousers, something unspecified and a sheepskin jacket from Zolotaryov, bottom part of trousers from Thibault-Brignoles, and jacket, leggings, white sweater, and brown sweater from Dubinina.
Radioactive contamination can't just spread from one piece of clothing to another without some physical mechanism. This is why I have a hard time believing that Krivonischenko's occupation at Mayak was responsible for all this contamination, even if there were safety breaches.
Yes, you're right. I took another look. I guess, I misinterpreted the numbers. Those are really more than background.
Contamination could spread, if it's dust particles. But in this case it seems highly unlikely that it did. I guess there must be much more dust...
I also don't think that it's an accidental contamination that one or two brought with them from their place of work.
It's strange. As always...
-
I posted two different analyses on the KGB / Radiation / Military Involvement board back in 2019 where I go through the three tables in the report file line by line and determine how they were calculated.
Yes, dust spreads contamination. If multiple hikers were in an area with contaminated dust, then their clothing would likely be contaminated. But once clothing is contaminated, the contamination doesn't spontaneously go back into dust form and spread to other people's clothing. There usually needs to be direct contact. And even then, only a small fraction typically gets transferred.
I've thought about ways occupational contamination could affect everyone's clothing, and everything seems highly improbable. The best I can come up with would be: 1. Everyone's clothing was carried in a single rucksack that was either extremely contaminated itself or contained a piece of extremely contaminated clothing that rubbed against all of them, or 2. Everyone's clothing was laundered together along with something extremely contaminated. These don't seem likely. So I'm left thinking that all the hikers were exposed to airborne contaminated dust, either on the hike before they died, as part of the incident that killed them, or post-mortem.
Unfortunately, no lung tissue for any of the hikers was tested. This might tell if they breathed in radioisotopes.
Soles of boots or bottoms of the outer layer of socks would have been of much interest, as they may pick up airborne contamination settling on the ground and may be especially hot.
The clothing the other five hikers were wearing when they died would have shown whether all nine hikers were contaminated, or if the contamination was somehow localized to the ravine.
Also, testing the tent itself, and the boots and clothing still stored in the tent may help determine if the contamination happened on the night they died, or if anyone was contaminated before that night.
-
I posted two different analyses on the KGB / Radiation / Military Involvement board back in 2019 where I go through the three tables in the report file line by line and determine how they were calculated.
Yes, dust spreads contamination. If multiple hikers were in an area with contaminated dust, then their clothing would likely be contaminated. But once clothing is contaminated, the contamination doesn't spontaneously go back into dust form and spread to other people's clothing. There usually needs to be direct contact. And even then, only a small fraction typically gets transferred.
I've thought about ways occupational contamination could affect everyone's clothing, and everything seems highly improbable. The best I can come up with would be: 1. Everyone's clothing was carried in a single rucksack that was either extremely contaminated itself or contained a piece of extremely contaminated clothing that rubbed against all of them, or 2. Everyone's clothing was laundered together along with something extremely contaminated. These don't seem likely. So I'm left thinking that all the hikers were exposed to airborne contaminated dust, either on the hike before they died, as part of the incident that killed them, or post-mortem.
Unfortunately, no lung tissue for any of the hikers was tested. This might tell if they breathed in radioisotopes.
Soles of boots or bottoms of the outer layer of socks would have been of much interest, as they may pick up airborne contamination settling on the ground and may be especially hot.
The clothing the other five hikers were wearing when they died would have shown whether all nine hikers were contaminated, or if the contamination was somehow localized to the ravine.
Also, testing the tent itself, and the boots and clothing still stored in the tent may help determine if the contamination happened on the night they died, or if anyone was contaminated before that night.
So on the branch that we wonder if the radioactive clothes were supposed to be handed off to a spy...are we thinking that the handoff was to be given to an American? That I might have some strings I could pull to see if I can get any info from this side.... I know someone here (forgive me, I forget who,) did a FOIL request with the CIA on Zolotaryev. I may have some favors I could beg in to see if there were any spies in the region in 1959. Sometimes if you go through the right person, they tell you that they can "neither confirm nor deny that there were two guys who failed to meet up with a contact in that region." It will take some time to try and it may be fruitless but if we can confirm Americans were planning on radioisotopes from that region in 1959, I think there might be enough proof to give some real meat to that theory.... Worth a shot, at least...
-
I know someone here (forgive me, I forget who,) did a FOIL request with the CIA on Zolotaryev.
That'd be MDGross, here:
I recently made an inquiry to the CIA for information about Semyon Aleksandrovich Zolotaryov. The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) affords me that right. I had no expectation of getting any information, but I wanted the learning experience.
[snip]