Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => KGB / Radiation / Military involvement => Topic started by: Star man on January 20, 2019, 07:03:57 AM

Title: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 20, 2019, 07:03:57 AM
Low Yield Nuclear Weapon Hypothesis - version 2

This is the latest version of my hypothesis.  It's broken down into two sections.  The first is a simple narrative of the events.  Each section is numbered.  Below the narrative is presented a corresponding discussion, argument and explanation of the narrative with corresponding numbers.


NARRATIVE

The Tent

1. On the 1st feb 1959 on the North East slope of Kholat Syakhl at about 300 metres from the summit.  The Dyatlov group made camp and began to settle in.  Some time during the evening, one or more of the group noticed something strange going on outside.  Some of the group members (Semyon, Thibo) put on some of their clothes and shoes and went outside to take a look at what was going on. Semyon grabs  a camera from the tent to try and take some photographs.

2.   An intense bright light from behind the summit of the mountain lights up the whole landscape, casting long dark shadows where the light is blocked by the peaks and ridges of the mountain.  A low yield nuclear device has detonated several km away to the south west.  5 to 10 seconds after the bright flash a shock wave reverberates over the top of the mountain hitting those standing up outside and rattles the tent.  The shock wave however causes no serious injuries, possibly some minor injuries, and has a deafening sound.  A bright orange glow fills the sky above the summit.    The Dyatlov group are shaken up by the shock wave and then a blast of wind capable of knocking people over.   This may have sparked a panic within the group, causing them to leave the tent trying to understand what was going on.

3.  Several minutes later a thick smoggy cloud starts to flow over the top and around the sides of the summit, rolling down the slope and hugging the ground.  When it gets to the tent and the Dyatlov group the true horror of this dusty cloud is revealed as the dust hits their eyes, lungs and throats, causing severe irritation, burning and restricted breathing.  The group have no choice but to try and get away.  There is no time to collect anything from the tent as they are being overcome by the toxic, noxious dust cloud.  Their instinct is to try and get away and they begin to move down the slope in the opposite direction to the dusty smoggy cloud and the point where the device was detonated.

Descending the slope

 4.  One of the group already has a flashlight in hand, but the smoggy haze is difficult to see through in the dark.  They gather together and move down the slope in single file, holding on to each other not to get lost in the dark smog.  As they decent they cough and gag and choke for air, their eyes burning.  400 metres down the slope the flashlight goes out, the batteries spent.  The torch is switched off and discarded. As they get closer to the bottom of the slope and the tree line, they can see a large cedar tree poking above the layer of dusty smog and they head for the tree.

The Cedar tree

5.  When they get to the cedar tree, they make a desperate attempt to scramble up the tree.  It is difficult for some who are suffering early frost bite on their fingers and toes.  They are pushed, shoved and hauled up where possible, sustaining many scratches and abrasions in the process.  Zina possibly sustains a significant bruise slipping and falling against a tree branch.  Some of them manage to get high enough to gain access to more breathable, less acrid air.  Maybe some don't get high enough to completely remove themselves from the smog layer flowing down the mountain.  Now they have to hang on and wait until the smog layer dissipates.  They clear some branches to try and see up the slope where the smog is coming from.  Some of the group clinging to the tree gasp for air, but it is too much and they lose consciousness and fall.  Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo all fall from high up in the tree and land hard on the ground sustaining significant injuries.  Dorishencko desperately tries to cling on to the tree with his frost bitten fingers and numb hands.

6.  The fog does eventually clear, and they climb down the tree and attend to the injured on the ground as best they can. The two Yuris are severely frost bitten and cold as they have less clothing on. Those still capable gather wood to make a fire in a desperate attempt to keep warm.  They know that they can't survive or make it back to the tent without a significant heat source to warm their bodies.  They build the fire and try to get warm.  But for the two Yuris it is too late.  They die first, but not of hypothermia.  They die as a result of severe hypoxia and Odema resulting from acute nitrogen dioxide exposure.  The cold just helped to speed this up.

7.  Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo lie on the ground.  Thibo is unconscious and Semyon and Lyuda are either unconscious or in severe pain.

The Ravine

8.  The fire is not enough to ensure their survival and they know they cant carry the injured back to the tent, so they scout around for a more sheltered area and find the ravine 70 metres away and decide it would be a better place to build a shelter.  They start to cut down the young fir tree branches around the cedar in a radius of about 20 metres so that they can transport these to the ravine to make a den.  By collecting them around the cedar tree they can also stay warm by going back to the fire, instead of collecting them at the ravine where they could succumb to the cold before they have finished the den.  They transport the fir branches to the ravine and build a makeshift shelter.  After removing the remaining useful clothing from their dead friends and distributing it (e.g. Wrapping Lyuda's foot) they transport their injured friends to the ravine and the den.  All the while they struggle to breath as the residual effects of the smog cloud continue to cause them problems.  The group realise that they need their equipment if they are going to survive.  Dyatlov, Zina, and Rustem decide to return to the tent after warming themselves by the fire, leaving Kolevatov to attend to the injured in the ravine.

9.  Lyuda dies from a combination of her severe chest injuries and hypoxia.  Her hat and coat are transferred to Semyon.  Semyon succumbs to the same fate some time later.  Thibo slips away from a severe head injury, the cold and hypoxia.  Kolevatov is the last alive in the ravine.  He clings to Semyon and he too succumbs to the effects of the cold and severe hypoxia.

10. Dyatlov climbs the slope with his friends, but his strength leaves him as he gasps for air.  He falls unconscious and slowly the cold takes him.  Rustem is next, he falls hitting his head as he staggers up the slope with Zina, his lungs burning.  They know if they don't get to the tent they will die.  Rustem falls and dies of hypoxia and Odema.  Zina, falls the same way a little further up the slope.  It is over.





DISCUSSION AND ARGUMENTS FOR THE ABOVE NARRATIVE

1,  FACT -  Semyon and Tibo were the better dressed for the weather conditions.  They had put on footwear, hats and several layers of clothing. 

Even so they did not have all their outdoor clothes on so were not prepared for a long hike.  They may have been on watch that night.

It is possible that they went out to relieve themselves and noticed something going on in the sky. 

FACT - When Semyon was found he had his camera around his neck.

It is unlikely that Semyon was taking photos inside the tent that night while dressed with his boots on.  Something must have prompted him to get his camera from the tent before things started to go bad.  It is also extremely unlikely that he grabbed his camera after things started to go bad given that the rest of the group did not even have time to get their footwear. He must have already had his camera with him when they left the camp in haste.  So it is very likely that he thought there was something worth taking a photo of outside the tent before things turned really bad.

After the detonation of the device,  it is likely that several others scrambled out of the tent to find out what was going on.  They put some warm clothes on but did not put on their boots probably because they did not expect to be leaving the camp site.  Lyuda took her fur hat and coat which was later found on Semyon in the ravine. Kolevatov or one the others probably removed it from Lyuda and put it onto Semyon after she died.  Zina, and Igor had several layers of clothes but no boots.  Some of the group were still scrambling to get dressed when they were forced to leave the camp.  Rustem had managed to put on one felt boot, but left before he had put on the other one.  It is likely that some of them were standing outside for a short time before they were forced to hastily leave the camp site with no time to collect any more of their clothing or equipment. The two Yuris were probably still in the tent when the group were forced to leave and had little time to put any real warm clothing on.  There was probably a short period ( minutes ), where they knew something unusual was happening, but didn't realise how much danger they were in.

2.  Why a nuclear device?

FACT - the investigation requested that radiation checks be carried out. 

There is no logical reason for this unless the authorities suspected that there was some kind of nuclear involvement.  At this point they obviously didn't know what had happened themselves but may have suspected the cause to be a nuclear test that they were aware of. They wanted to know what had happened.  It is possible that Kholat Syakhl had been selected as a test site due it's isolation, lack of vegetation and animal life, or it is possible that it was not deliberately selected, but that the delivery system of the nuclear device failed and deviated from its intended course.

FACT: access to the area was restricted for 3 years after the event.

This is enough time to allow any residual radiation levels to fall off or to clean up the site.

There is also anecdotal evidence that the helicopter pilots refused to take the bodies from the ravine on board unless they were in zinc coffins.  They may have known something or possibly had heard that radiation checks had been carried out.

Ivanov said he had noticed scorch marks on the tops of the trees, but not in a uniform pattern.  This could have been the result of a nuclear heat flash and ionising radiation pulse, but because the detonation was behind the summit of Kholat Syakhl only those trees in direct line of site of the blast would be scorched, creating the appearance that heat beams had been fired at the trees.  The optimum height of a low yield 1 to 3 kilotonne device would be between 200 and 500 metres above the ground.  If it was a nuclear device being tested then this is likely to be the range of detonation heights.

FACT - some of the clothes were found to have traces of radiation above normal background levels.

It was 3 weeks before the group were found.  Any significant levels of radiation would have decayed back to safe levels or blown/ washed away by this time only leaving traces.  Clues like the clothing.  Also the snow around the tent had been scoured away by the wind.  Thus the elevated foot prints,  meaning that there would be little evidence of radiation around the camp site as any fall out on the snow would have been blown away.  Further down the slope the snow was deeper and any residual radioactivity would have been buried and shielded from detection.

There is anecdotal evidence from other people around the area up to 70km away of orange orbs, or fire balls in the direction of the mountain.  To see something as a sphere or orb from 70km away would mean it had to be pretty big.  About 500 metres would make it about as big as the moon in the sky from 70km.  A low yield weapon like this would produce a fire ball about 500 metres across.  This could be coincidental, and some other unrelated thing, but if it was some kind of ordinance it would have to be pretty spectacular to be seen from 70km and described as it was.

Also the device being detonated at its optimal altitude and behind the mountain would mean that the Dyatlov group would be quite well shielded from the worst effects of the heat flash and ionising radiation.  From several km away, the shock wave over pressure would only be several psi and not enough to cause significant physical harm.  But it would have been very scary.  The wind blast may have been strong enough to knock anyone standing up outside the tent over, and would have rattled the tent possibly partly blowing it down.  The heat flash, shock wave and wind blast would have been very scary, prompting those still in the tent to start getting dressed and scramble out.

  FACT:  Rustem was found with one felt boot on indicating that some of the group were in the process of getting dressed, but that they didn't have time to finish before things started to go bad.  The pile of boots near the entrance was disorderly indicating there was a mad scramble to get past them and outside.  Some of the group may have scrambled out of the tent poorly dressed to find out what was going on.  Up to this point there would be no immediate need to leave the camp site as the heat flash, radiation pulse, shock wave and wind blast have passed and has not caused significant harm.  The group would have observed the glow of the fire ball rising behind the summit and may have stood there for several minutes in bewilderment trying to understand what was going on.  They also may have realised that some kind of weapon had been used.

3.  The fire ball from a nuclear device is made of the vaporised components of the device and radioactive materials.  It is also composed of a large quantity of nitrogen dioxide gas formed by the reaction of oxygen and nitrogen at temperatures in excess of 1600 Celsius.  About 5 tonnes of nitrogen dioxide is produced per kilotonne of yield.  Thus  a 1 to 3 kt device would produce between 5 to 15 tonnes of nitrogen dioxide gas.  The fire ball would expand and cool rapidly.  Initially, the fire ball would rise due to its buoyancy, but because the air was so frigid and cold that night it would have cooled very rapidly indeed.  Nitrogen dioxide is a liquid at temperatures below 21 Celsius.  As the fire ball cloud cools nitrogen dioxide would start to condense and precipitate as micron size droplets with a range of droplet sizes.  As the cloud continues to cool the nitrogen dioxide will dimerise forming N2O4.  At a temperature of less than -11 Celsius N2O4 freezes as a white solid.  The small micron size droplets would freeze into solid white micron size dust like particles.  This would happen quickly.  These particles would begin to fall forming a collapsing smoggy dust cloud that hugs the ground and moves with the wind.  For a 150 micron dust particle it's settling rate would be about 0.5 metres per second, which means that within a km or so, the dust cloud would touch down on the ground, spread out and move along with the wind.  The south west slope of the mountain was bordered by ridges, creating a kind of bowl that would have channeled a dust cloud up toward the summit of the mountain.

The size of this cloud would be significant maintaining concentration > 100 ppm ( significantly above LD50) over many kilometres.  E.g 50 square km blanket of noxious smog.  Concentrations >> 100 ppm would be intolerable and force people to try and get away.  It should be noted that the small dust like smog particles would not be very reactive unless they came into contact with a warm surface, enough to cause the dust particles to convert back to NO2 ( e.g. Human skin, eyes, lungs and mucous membranes at 37 Celsius). A small solid particle would be converted in much more gas and result in high concentrations in the lungs.

Given that the Dyatlov group made their way hastily down the slope in the direction of the wind it is reasonable to assume that they were trying to get away from whatever threat there was by moving in the opposite direction away from fire ball and cloud.  This would be the most instinctive thing to do.  This would place the fire ball and dust cloud to the south west of the camp site and over the summit of the mountain.  It would place the dust cloud upwind of the group.

So not long ( several minutes) after they were standing outside the tent wondering what was going on,  a large smoggy toxic, radioactive noxious cloud of dust would come rolling over the top and around the sides of Kholat Syakhl directly at them.  When the cloud reaches them they would have no choice but to try and get away from it as the dust hit their eyes and lungs causing severe burning and irritation.  I think it is at this point that they  would have panicked and headed down the slope, not waiting to collect any more of their gear.

4. FACT: about 8 or 9 sets of foot prints were seen moving down the slope away from the tent in what seemed to be single file.

 FACT: 400 metres down the slope a flash light was found, switched off, batteries spent.

I can only imagine that due to the darkness and possibly the noxious fog cloud visibility would have been very poor.  It would make sense to go in single file.  The person with the flash light up front, and the rest behind holding on to one another.  The acute exposure to nitrogen dioxide would have made it very difficult to breath and the conditions during the decent down the slope would have been horrendous.  Their instinct would have been to try to get away.

As they get near to the tree line they make out the tall cedar tree.  It is possible that the top of the cedar is visible above the worst of ground hugging noxious smog, so they head for the tree to try and climb up it to get to more breathable air.

5.  The cedar tree is a key clue to the events of the night.  It was prominent at the tree line.  It was tall.  Why did they go there in particular?

FACT: the tree was climbed up to at least 5 metres, where there were broken branches.

FACT: Dorishenko had particles of moss and pine needles in his hair.  He had bruises on both his shins, a cut on his left forearm, abrasions on his left elbow, abrasions and bruises around his arm pits and severe frost bite on his fingers and toes.

FACT: Krivonischenko had similar cuts,  abrasions and bruises to legs, hands face and forearms.

FACT: Zina had cuts abrasions to hands, face and a large long bruise on her side

The moss, needles in hair and minor injuries could be consistent with a person trying to scramble up a tree, especially if the person had frost bite and needed to try and climb and hold on using arms and legs.

If the cedar tree was only used as a look out or vantage point or to collect fire wood why would those with frost bite want to climb the tree, when it would be extremely difficult to do so, especially when there were others with less frost bite and better dressed.  It wouldn't make sense, unless they were all trying to escape from something.  Something closer to the ground.  Something that couldn't climb trees and didn't leave any foot prints - like a blanket of noxious fog/smog?

It's difficult to say how long they would need to stay on the tree?  It may have been 30 minutes or an hour before the smog layer dissipates.  It also,would depend on if there was more than one device tested that night.

Acute nitrogen dioxide poisoning - as well as being acrid and irritating has a delayed effect.  The acrid fumes would cause restriction of breathing and gasping for air.  Dissolved in the blood nitrogen dioxide results in methemoglobin which inhibits oxygen transport.  Restricted breathing coupled with methemoglobin can result in insufficient oxygen and hypoxia.  This can result in confusion, fatigue and loss of consciousness.  These are not good symptoms to have when you are over 5 metres up a tree.

In this hypothesis it is proposed that the group chose the cedar because it was tall and they use it to try and get above the noxious gases.  They all climbed as best they could.  I suspect they climbed to higher than 5 metres but there isn't any clear evidence on this.

If the delayed effect of acute NO2 poisoning took effect while they were on the tree then it is credible that some of them could have lost consciousness.

It is proposed that Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo lost consciousness and fell from the tree to the ground, sustaining significant injuries.  The injuries would be similar in terms of the amount of applied force ( at least 2 tonnes of pressure), but different depending on how they landed.  Lyuda and Semyon and Thibo were wearing several layers of warm clothes.  This provides a lot of padding and the impact of a fall would be cushioned and the forces spread out across the body area.  Therefore unless they had landed on something sharp the damage to external soft tissues would be minimised.  Thibo was wearing 2 hats.  A fur hat and a sports hat.  So if he landed hard on his head the hats would again spread some of the forces across that part of his head minimising cuts and scratches to the soft tissues.  Some of the others may have fallen too but the injuries would depend on how high they were in the tree and whether they fell all the way to the ground.  Zina for instance may have slipped, bruised her side against a branch and caught hold to prevent her falling from the tree completely.

6. When the noxious smog eventually clears, those still in the tree climb down and try to attend to the injured.  They start collecting fire wood to make a fire and eventually get one going.  For the two Yuris though it is too late.  The acute NO2 poisoning leads to severe hypoxia, Odema and death, speeded up by the cold conditions.

FACT: grey foamy liquid found on Dorishenko's face was fluid from his lungs. Odema.

FACT: At autopsy the urine in Dorishenko's bladder is low and not consistent with death from hypothermia.

FACT: the fire did not help them to stay alive even though they were close enough to sustain burns.

At some point the clothes of Dorishenko and Krivonischenko were removed and shared out.  Lyuda had Dorishenko's sweater and some clothes which had been wrapped around her foot.  I would say that these were put on her by the others while she was unconscious. It may also be possible that Krivonishenko made a selfless and noble sacrifice and gave Lyudua his sweater on the decent from tent ( women and children first ).  However, the sweater may also have been taken after his death.

7. There is not much to say on this.  Lyuda and Semyon and Thibo were dying.  Lyuda may have died here even before she was moved to the ravine.  They were probably unconscious due to severe hypoxia.  While they were at the cedar the remaining functioning group would have realised that there was no way to get the injured back to the tent.  They may have decided at this point to look for a suitable place to build a shelter to protect the injured and then to make an attempt to go back to the camp to get more clothes and equipment.  They scouted around and found a more sheltered place in the near bye ravine.  They start cutting down the small trees around the cedar to use to make the den.  This way they could use the fire to maintain their body temperatures while collecting the materials to build the den. 

8. They then made several trips between the cedar and the ravine, transporting materials to make a den.  They build a basic snow den and move the injured, dragging and carrying them to the den.  While dragging them some of the pieces of clothing taken from the two Yuris, falls off in the snow and trousers etc are torn.  When the shelter is finished Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem decide to make an attempt to go back to the tent.  They know they need their equipment if they are to survive.  They leave Kolevatov at the ravine to look after the injured. 

10. Dyatlov and his two friends warm themselves by the fire at the cedar before setting off for the tent together.  But the effects of the NO2 poising catch up with them and they struggle from hypoxia and fatigue.  Dyatlov falls exhausted and can't go any further.  He succumbs to the cold and dies of hypothermia.  Rustem falls next, but he dies of hypoxia and nitrogen dioxide poisoning before the cold takes him.  Zina falls a little further up and dies from hypoxia and hypothermia.

FACT: Dyatlov has urine in bladder consistent with hypothermia.

FACT: Rustem has an ice bed and the urine in his bladder is not consistent with death from hypothermia.

Rustems injuries could be explained if he was struggling to stay conscious and fell repeatedly while trying to climb the slope back to the tent.

9.  Back at the ravine Lyuda, Semyon, Thibo and Kolevatov all eventually die from a combination of their injuries, the cold and nitrogen dioxide poisoning.  Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem never come back.  The deaths of Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo can be explained.  Their injuries combined with the cold would have killed them even without nitrogen dioxide poisoning.  However, Kolevetov did not have such significant injuries.  He was reasonably dressed and could have taken more clothing off Semyon, and Thibo after they had died.  He was also better sheltered from the cold in the ravine and the makeshift den.  He could have even went back to the cedar and the fire to keep warm and yet he died too.  His jacket was unbuttoned and unzipped.  This is very odd unless there was some other thing that was acting on them to kill them, like nitrogen dioxide poisoning.  There is evidence that suggests that Dorishenko' and Rustem demise was not from hypothermia, and their physical injuries were described as non life threatening.

By the early hours of the next day they are all dead and it is over.


Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 20, 2019, 09:29:32 AM
Nice one! But the events around the cedar aren't very conclusive for me... The poisonous smog... I dont see how it could spill over the mountain. BTW. Google Earth doesnt allow us to see the area behind the Dead Mountain. There are some bad, ugly resolution pics... All we know is that there are some trees. Grown back after 70 years? Yes, possible. It would be an ideal test site for a low yield nuke. The back of the Dead mountain is a almost perfect crater.

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 20, 2019, 03:19:06 PM
Nice one! But the events around the cedar aren't very conclusive for me... The poisonous smog... I dont see how it could spill over the mountain. BTW. Google Earth doesnt allow us to see the area behind the Dead Mountain. There are some bad, ugly resolution pics... All we know is that there are some trees. Grown back after 70 years? Yes, possible. It would be an ideal test site for a low yield nuke. The back of the Dead mountain is a almost perfect crater.

regards

Dominov

In terms of how the smog/dust cloud was transported it would be a fine particulate not disimilar to a dense frozen fog.  The particles would be whipped up by the wind and transported along the ground by the wind as a suspended blanket or low lying cloud.

Teddy posted a nice photo in the general discussion section, on remembering our dead.  It shows snow/frozen water vapour cloud moving across the mountain obscuring the setting sun.  It kind of shows how such particles behave.

For some reason I can't post images.  Probably because my computer is old and way out of date.

In terms of the hypothesis, it is obviously for discussion and debate.  Am happy to discuss any questions on the cedar tree or if you can see any inconsistencies or problems with the narrative.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 20, 2019, 04:08:58 PM
On the whole not a bad effort and certainly you have given it some thought.  However there are several points that may destroy this theory. The main point for me would be the serious injuries that DUBININA suffered. It is highly unlikely that she got those injuries from falling from that Cedar Tree. If you research falls from Trees I think you will find very different types of injuries.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 20, 2019, 11:43:27 PM
On the whole not a bad effort and certainly you have given it some thought.  However there are several points that may destroy this theory. The main point for me would be the serious injuries that DUBININA suffered. It is highly unlikely that she got those injuries from falling from that Cedar Tree. If you research falls from Trees I think you will find very different types of injuries.

I will have a look at injuries from tree falls. Thanks.

It seems to me though that the injuries are unlikely to have been sustained while descending the slope because I doubt they would have made it to the tree line.  Also I think they are likely to have happened before the decision to build a den in the ravine because if they hadn’t it would make more sense for those still alive and able to attempt to return to the tent with Dyatlov and co?

I suppose it’s possible that they fell out and had a fight and went separate ways due to the decision of Dyatlov to change the route and where that led them.  I doubt it though as they would need all hands working together to survive.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 21, 2019, 02:17:38 AM
@star man

One more thought about your theory. If there was indeed a nuclear test on the backside of the Dead mountain some military observers were very likely to be on site in order to document that test. And they might have chosen the same area where the Dyatlow group pitched their tent. This side of the mountain would have offered protection from the heat wave, the shock wave and the radiation.

Therefore it also made sense that they restricted access to the pass and moved their equipment to the hill facing the Dead Mountain. From there they could have spotted the Dyatlov Group.

What do you think?

Military observation post? (Green circle):

(https://i.ibb.co/mNbLXW1/military-location.png) (https://ibb.co/GHnKtSB)

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 21, 2019, 05:18:01 AM
@star man

One more thought about your theory. If there was indeed a nuclear test on the backside of the Dead mountain some military observers were very likely to be on site in order to document that test. And they might have chosen the same area where the Dyatlow group pitched their tent. This side of the mountain would have offered protection from the heat wave, the shock wave and the radiation.

Therefore it also made sense that they restricted access to the pass and moved their equipment to the hill facing the Dead Mountain. From there they could have spotted the Dyatlov Group.

What do you think?

Military observation post? (Green circle):

(https://i.ibb.co/mNbLXW1/military-location.png) (https://ibb.co/GHnKtSB)

regards

Dominov

Yes. I think there would certainly be a military presence in the area and some kind of observation point if the site had been pre selected. It’s possible that this activity is what drew Semyon to get his camera. Not sure where they would have set up the observation point though. It could be where you have pointed out. It would certainly be further away than the Dyatlov camp though and probably up wind of the test site?  So given that where would be a good place to set up? It’s possible it was observed from the air too?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 21, 2019, 06:40:54 AM
Could this military personnel be involved in the violent death of the 4 in the ravine?

Anyway, your theory could be confirmed or proven wrong if we had some soil samples from the region around the Dead mountain, especially from the backside. I guess a good laboratory could find traces of a nuclear explosion even today. The next expedition should take some soil samples and then we crowd-fund the analysis. ;)

And one more thing... Along the ridges of the Dead mountain there are a lot of weather-worn rocks, very characteristic. Wouldn't some of them have been pushed away by a shockwave? On the other hand they are streamlined by the wind running over the ridges.

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Monika on January 21, 2019, 07:59:44 AM
Low Yield Nuclear Weapon Hypothesis - version 2

This is the latest version of my hypothesis.  It's broken down into two sections.  The first is a simple narrative of the events.  Each section is numbered.  Below the narrative is presented a corresponding discussion, argument and explanation of the narrative with corresponding numbers.


NARRATIVE

The Tent

1. On the 1st feb 1959 on the North East slope of Kholat Syakhl at about 300 metres from the summit.  The Dyatlov group made camp and began to settle in.  Some time during the evening, one or more of the group noticed something strange going on outside.  Some of the group members (Semyon, Thibo) put on some of their clothes and shoes and went outside to take a look at what was going on. Semyon grabs  a camera from the tent to try and take some photographs.

2.   An intense bright light from behind the summit of the mountain lights up the whole landscape, casting long dark shadows where the light is blocked by the peaks and ridges of the mountain.  A low yield nuclear device has detonated several km away to the south west.  5 to 10 seconds after the bright flash a shock wave reverberates over the top of the mountain hitting those standing up outside and rattles the tent.  The shock wave however causes no serious injuries, possibly some minor injuries, and has a deafening sound.  A bright orange glow fills the sky above the summit.    The Dyatlov group are shaken up by the shock wave and then a blast of wind capable of knocking people over.   This may have sparked a panic within the group, causing them to leave the tent trying to understand what was going on.

3.  Several minutes later a thick smoggy cloud starts to flow over the top and around the sides of the summit, rolling down the slope and hugging the ground.  When it gets to the tent and the Dyatlov group the true horror of this dusty cloud is revealed as the dust hits their eyes, lungs and throats, causing severe irritation, burning and restricted breathing.  The group have no choice but to try and get away.  There is no time to collect anything from the tent as they are being overcome by the toxic, noxious dust cloud.  Their instinct is to try and get away and they begin to move down the slope in the opposite direction to the dusty smoggy cloud and the point where the device was detonated.

Descending the slope

 4.  One of the group already has a flashlight in hand, but the smoggy haze is difficult to see through in the dark.  They gather together and move down the slope in single file, holding on to each other not to get lost in the dark smog.  As they decent they cough and gag and choke for air, their eyes burning.  400 metres down the slope the flashlight goes out, the batteries spent.  The torch is switched off and discarded. As they get closer to the bottom of the slope and the tree line, they can see a large cedar tree poking above the layer of dusty smog and they head for the tree.

The Cedar tree

5.  When they get to the cedar tree, they make a desperate attempt to scramble up the tree.  It is difficult for some who are suffering early frost bite on their fingers and toes.  They are pushed, shoved and hauled up where possible, sustaining many scratches and abrasions in the process.  Zina possibly sustains a significant bruise slipping and falling against a tree branch.  Some of them manage to get high enough to gain access to more breathable, less acrid air.  Maybe some don't get high enough to completely remove themselves from the smog layer flowing down the mountain.  Now they have to hang on and wait until the smog layer dissipates.  They clear some branches to try and see up the slope where the smog is coming from.  Some of the group clinging to the tree gasp for air, but it is too much and they lose consciousness and fall.  Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo all fall from high up in the tree and land hard on the ground sustaining significant injuries.  Dorishencko desperately tries to cling on to the tree with his frost bitten fingers and numb hands.

6.  The fog does eventually clear, and they climb down the tree and attend to the injured on the ground as best they can. The two Yuris are severely frost bitten and cold as they have less clothing on. Those still capable gather wood to make a fire in a desperate attempt to keep warm.  They know that they can't survive or make it back to the tent without a significant heat source to warm their bodies.  They build the fire and try to get warm.  But for the two Yuris it is too late.  They die first, but not of hypothermia.  They die as a result of severe hypoxia and Odema resulting from acute nitrogen dioxide exposure.  The cold just helped to speed this up.

7.  Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo lie on the ground.  Thibo is unconscious and Semyon and Lyuda are either unconscious or in severe pain.

The Ravine

8.  The fire is not enough to ensure their survival and they know they cant carry the injured back to the tent, so they scout around for a more sheltered area and find the ravine 70 metres away and decide it would be a better place to build a shelter.  They start to cut down the young fir tree branches around the cedar in a radius of about 20 metres so that they can transport these to the ravine to make a den.  By collecting them around the cedar tree they can also stay warm by going back to the fire, instead of collecting them at the ravine where they could succumb to the cold before they have finished the den.  They transport the fir branches to the ravine and build a makeshift shelter.  After removing the remaining useful clothing from their dead friends and distributing it (e.g. Wrapping Lyuda's foot) they transport their injured friends to the ravine and the den.  All the while they struggle to breath as the residual effects of the smog cloud continue to cause them problems.  The group realise that they need their equipment if they are going to survive.  Dyatlov, Zina, and Rustem decide to return to the tent after warming themselves by the fire, leaving Kolevatov to attend to the injured in the ravine.

9.  Lyuda dies from a combination of her severe chest injuries and hypoxia.  Her hat and coat are transferred to Semyon.  Semyon succumbs to the same fate some time later.  Thibo slips away from a severe head injury, the cold and hypoxia.  Kolevatov is the last alive in the ravine.  He clings to Semyon and he too succumbs to the effects of the cold and severe hypoxia.

10. Dyatlov climbs the slope with his friends, but his strength leaves him as he gasps for air.  He falls unconscious and slowly the cold takes him.  Rustem is next, he falls hitting his head as he staggers up the slope with Zina, his lungs burning.  They know if they don't get to the tent they will die.  Rustem falls and dies of hypoxia and Odema.  Zina, falls the same way a little further up the slope.  It is over.





DISCUSSION AND ARGUMENTS FOR THE ABOVE NARRATIVE

1,  FACT -  Semyon and Tibo were the better dressed for the weather conditions.  They had put on footwear, hats and several layers of clothing. 

Even so they did not have all their outdoor clothes on so were not prepared for a long hike.  They may have been on watch that night.

It is possible that they went out to relieve themselves and noticed something going on in the sky. 

FACT - When Semyon was found he had his camera around his neck.

It is unlikely that Semyon was taking photos inside the tent that night while dressed with his boots on.  Something must have prompted him to get his camera from the tent before things started to go bad.  It is also extremely unlikely that he grabbed his camera after things started to go bad given that the rest of the group did not even have time to get their footwear. He must have already had his camera with him when they left the camp in haste.  So it is very likely that he thought there was something worth taking a photo of outside the tent before things turned really bad.

After the detonation of the device,  it is likely that several others scrambled out of the tent to find out what was going on.  They put some warm clothes on but did not put on their boots probably because they did not expect to be leaving the camp site.  Lyuda took her fur hat and coat which was later found on Semyon in the ravine. Kolevatov or one the others probably removed it from Lyuda and put it onto Semyon after she died.  Zina, and Igor had several layers of clothes but no boots.  Some of the group were still scrambling to get dressed when they were forced to leave the camp.  Rustem had managed to put on one felt boot, but left before he had put on the other one.  It is likely that some of them were standing outside for a short time before they were forced to hastily leave the camp site with no time to collect any more of their clothing or equipment. The two Yuris were probably still in the tent when the group were forced to leave and had little time to put any real warm clothing on.  There was probably a short period ( minutes ), where they knew something unusual was happening, but didn't realise how much danger they were in.

2.  Why a nuclear device?

FACT - the investigation requested that radiation checks be carried out. 

There is no logical reason for this unless the authorities suspected that there was some kind of nuclear involvement.  At this point they obviously didn't know what had happened themselves but may have suspected the cause to be a nuclear test that they were aware of. They wanted to know what had happened.  It is possible that Kholat Syakhl had been selected as a test site due it's isolation, lack of vegetation and animal life, or it is possible that it was not deliberately selected, but that the delivery system of the nuclear device failed and deviated from its intended course.

FACT: access to the area was restricted for 3 years after the event.

This is enough time to allow any residual radiation levels to fall off or to clean up the site.

There is also anecdotal evidence that the helicopter pilots refused to take the bodies from the ravine on board unless they were in zinc coffins.  They may have known something or possibly had heard that radiation checks had been carried out.

Ivanov said he had noticed scorch marks on the tops of the trees, but not in a uniform pattern.  This could have been the result of a nuclear heat flash and ionising radiation pulse, but because the detonation was behind the summit of Kholat Syakhl only those trees in direct line of site of the blast would be scorched, creating the appearance that heat beams had been fired at the trees.  The optimum height of a low yield 1 to 3 kilotonne device would be between 200 and 500 metres above the ground.  If it was a nuclear device being tested then this is likely to be the range of detonation heights.

FACT - some of the clothes were found to have traces of radiation above normal background levels.

It was 3 weeks before the group were found.  Any significant levels of radiation would have decayed back to safe levels or blown/ washed away by this time only leaving traces.  Clues like the clothing.  Also the snow around the tent had been scoured away by the wind.  Thus the elevated foot prints,  meaning that there would be little evidence of radiation around the camp site as any fall out on the snow would have been blown away.  Further down the slope the snow was deeper and any residual radioactivity would have been buried and shielded from detection.

There is anecdotal evidence from other people around the area up to 70km away of orange orbs, or fire balls in the direction of the mountain.  To see something as a sphere or orb from 70km away would mean it had to be pretty big.  About 500 metres would make it about as big as the moon in the sky from 70km.  A low yield weapon like this would produce a fire ball about 500 metres across.  This could be coincidental, and some other unrelated thing, but if it was some kind of ordinance it would have to be pretty spectacular to be seen from 70km and described as it was.

Also the device being detonated at its optimal altitude and behind the mountain would mean that the Dyatlov group would be quite well shielded from the worst effects of the heat flash and ionising radiation.  From several km away, the shock wave over pressure would only be several psi and not enough to cause significant physical harm.  But it would have been very scary.  The wind blast may have been strong enough to knock anyone standing up outside the tent over, and would have rattled the tent possibly partly blowing it down.  The heat flash, shock wave and wind blast would have been very scary, prompting those still in the tent to start getting dressed and scramble out.

  FACT:  Rustem was found with one felt boot on indicating that some of the group were in the process of getting dressed, but that they didn't have time to finish before things started to go bad.  The pile of boots near the entrance was disorderly indicating there was a mad scramble to get past them and outside.  Some of the group may have scrambled out of the tent poorly dressed to find out what was going on.  Up to this point there would be no immediate need to leave the camp site as the heat flash, radiation pulse, shock wave and wind blast have passed and has not caused significant harm.  The group would have observed the glow of the fire ball rising behind the summit and may have stood there for several minutes in bewilderment trying to understand what was going on.  They also may have realised that some kind of weapon had been used.

3.  The fire ball from a nuclear device is made of the vaporised components of the device and radioactive materials.  It is also composed of a large quantity of nitrogen dioxide gas formed by the reaction of oxygen and nitrogen at temperatures in excess of 1600 Celsius.  About 5 tonnes of nitrogen dioxide is produced per kilotonne of yield.  Thus  a 1 to 3 kt device would produce between 5 to 15 tonnes of nitrogen dioxide gas.  The fire ball would expand and cool rapidly.  Initially, the fire ball would rise due to its buoyancy, but because the air was so frigid and cold that night it would have cooled very rapidly indeed.  Nitrogen dioxide is a liquid at temperatures below 21 Celsius.  As the fire ball cloud cools nitrogen dioxide would start to condense and precipitate as micron size droplets with a range of droplet sizes.  As the cloud continues to cool the nitrogen dioxide will dimerise forming N2O4.  At a temperature of less than -11 Celsius N2O4 freezes as a white solid.  The small micron size droplets would freeze into solid white micron size dust like particles.  This would happen quickly.  These particles would begin to fall forming a collapsing smoggy dust cloud that hugs the ground and moves with the wind.  For a 150 micron dust particle it's settling rate would be about 0.5 metres per second, which means that within a km or so, the dust cloud would touch down on the ground, spread out and move along with the wind.  The south west slope of the mountain was bordered by ridges, creating a kind of bowl that would have channeled a dust cloud up toward the summit of the mountain.

The size of this cloud would be significant maintaining concentration > 100 ppm ( significantly above LD50) over many kilometres.  E.g 50 square km blanket of noxious smog.  Concentrations >> 100 ppm would be intolerable and force people to try and get away.  It should be noted that the small dust like smog particles would not be very reactive unless they came into contact with a warm surface, enough to cause the dust particles to convert back to NO2 ( e.g. Human skin, eyes, lungs and mucous membranes at 37 Celsius). A small solid particle would be converted in much more gas and result in high concentrations in the lungs.

Given that the Dyatlov group made their way hastily down the slope in the direction of the wind it is reasonable to assume that they were trying to get away from whatever threat there was by moving in the opposite direction away from fire ball and cloud.  This would be the most instinctive thing to do.  This would place the fire ball and dust cloud to the south west of the camp site and over the summit of the mountain.  It would place the dust cloud upwind of the group.

So not long ( several minutes) after they were standing outside the tent wondering what was going on,  a large smoggy toxic, radioactive noxious cloud of dust would come rolling over the top and around the sides of Kholat Syakhl directly at them.  When the cloud reaches them they would have no choice but to try and get away from it as the dust hit their eyes and lungs causing severe burning and irritation.  I think it is at this point that they  would have panicked and headed down the slope, not waiting to collect any more of their gear.

4. FACT: about 8 or 9 sets of foot prints were seen moving down the slope away from the tent in what seemed to be single file.

 FACT: 400 metres down the slope a flash light was found, switched off, batteries spent.

I can only imagine that due to the darkness and possibly the noxious fog cloud visibility would have been very poor.  It would make sense to go in single file.  The person with the flash light up front, and the rest behind holding on to one another.  The acute exposure to nitrogen dioxide would have made it very difficult to breath and the conditions during the decent down the slope would have been horrendous.  Their instinct would have been to try to get away.

As they get near to the tree line they make out the tall cedar tree.  It is possible that the top of the cedar is visible above the worst of ground hugging noxious smog, so they head for the tree to try and climb up it to get to more breathable air.

5.  The cedar tree is a key clue to the events of the night.  It was prominent at the tree line.  It was tall.  Why did they go there in particular?

FACT: the tree was climbed up to at least 5 metres, where there were broken branches.

FACT: Dorishenko had particles of moss and pine needles in his hair.  He had bruises on both his shins, a cut on his left forearm, abrasions on his left elbow, abrasions and bruises around his arm pits and severe frost bite on his fingers and toes.

FACT: Krivonischenko had similar cuts,  abrasions and bruises to legs, hands face and forearms.

FACT: Zina had cuts abrasions to hands, face and a large long bruise on her side

The moss, needles in hair and minor injuries could be consistent with a person trying to scramble up a tree, especially if the person had frost bite and needed to try and climb and hold on using arms and legs.

If the cedar tree was only used as a look out or vantage point or to collect fire wood why would those with frost bite want to climb the tree, when it would be extremely difficult to do so, especially when there were others with less frost bite and better dressed.  It wouldn't make sense, unless they were all trying to escape from something.  Something closer to the ground.  Something that couldn't climb trees and didn't leave any foot prints - like a blanket of noxious fog/smog?

It's difficult to say how long they would need to stay on the tree?  It may have been 30 minutes or an hour before the smog layer dissipates.  It also,would depend on if there was more than one device tested that night.

Acute nitrogen dioxide poisoning - as well as being acrid and irritating has a delayed effect.  The acrid fumes would cause restriction of breathing and gasping for air.  Dissolved in the blood nitrogen dioxide results in methemoglobin which inhibits oxygen transport.  Restricted breathing coupled with methemoglobin can result in insufficient oxygen and hypoxia.  This can result in confusion, fatigue and loss of consciousness.  These are not good symptoms to have when you are over 5 metres up a tree.

In this hypothesis it is proposed that the group chose the cedar because it was tall and they use it to try and get above the noxious gases.  They all climbed as best they could.  I suspect they climbed to higher than 5 metres but there isn't any clear evidence on this.

If the delayed effect of acute NO2 poisoning took effect while they were on the tree then it is credible that some of them could have lost consciousness.

It is proposed that Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo lost consciousness and fell from the tree to the ground, sustaining significant injuries.  The injuries would be similar in terms of the amount of applied force ( at least 2 tonnes of pressure), but different depending on how they landed.  Lyuda and Semyon and Thibo were wearing several layers of warm clothes.  This provides a lot of padding and the impact of a fall would be cushioned and the forces spread out across the body area.  Therefore unless they had landed on something sharp the damage to external soft tissues would be minimised.  Thibo was wearing 2 hats.  A fur hat and a sports hat.  So if he landed hard on his head the hats would again spread some of the forces across that part of his head minimising cuts and scratches to the soft tissues.  Some of the others may have fallen too but the injuries would depend on how high they were in the tree and whether they fell all the way to the ground.  Zina for instance may have slipped, bruised her side against a branch and caught hold to prevent her falling from the tree completely.

6. When the noxious smog eventually clears, those still in the tree climb down and try to attend to the injured.  They start collecting fire wood to make a fire and eventually get one going.  For the two Yuris though it is too late.  The acute NO2 poisoning leads to severe hypoxia, Odema and death, speeded up by the cold conditions.

FACT: grey foamy liquid found on Dorishenko's face was fluid from his lungs. Odema.

FACT: At autopsy the urine in Dorishenko's bladder is low and not consistent with death from hypothermia.

FACT: the fire did not help them to stay alive even though they were close enough to sustain burns.

At some point the clothes of Dorishenko and Krivonischenko were removed and shared out.  Lyuda had Dorishenko's sweater and some clothes which had been wrapped around her foot.  I would say that these were put on her by the others while she was unconscious. It may also be possible that Krivonishenko made a selfless and noble sacrifice and gave Lyudua his sweater on the decent from tent ( women and children first ).  However, the sweater may also have been taken after his death.

7. There is not much to say on this.  Lyuda and Semyon and Thibo were dying.  Lyuda may have died here even before she was moved to the ravine.  They were probably unconscious due to severe hypoxia.  While they were at the cedar the remaining functioning group would have realised that there was no way to get the injured back to the tent.  They may have decided at this point to look for a suitable place to build a shelter to protect the injured and then to make an attempt to go back to the camp to get more clothes and equipment.  They scouted around and found a more sheltered place in the near bye ravine.  They start cutting down the small trees around the cedar to use to make the den.  This way they could use the fire to maintain their body temperatures while collecting the materials to build the den. 

8. They then made several trips between the cedar and the ravine, transporting materials to make a den.  They build a basic snow den and move the injured, dragging and carrying them to the den.  While dragging them some of the pieces of clothing taken from the two Yuris, falls off in the snow and trousers etc are torn.  When the shelter is finished Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem decide to make an attempt to go back to the tent.  They know they need their equipment if they are to survive.  They leave Kolevatov at the ravine to look after the injured. 

10. Dyatlov and his two friends warm themselves by the fire at the cedar before setting off for the tent together.  But the effects of the NO2 poising catch up with them and they struggle from hypoxia and fatigue.  Dyatlov falls exhausted and can't go any further.  He succumbs to the cold and dies of hypothermia.  Rustem falls next, but he dies of hypoxia and nitrogen dioxide poisoning before the cold takes him.  Zina falls a little further up and dies from hypoxia and hypothermia.

FACT: Dyatlov has urine in bladder consistent with hypothermia.

FACT: Rustem has an ice bed and the urine in his bladder is not consistent with death from hypothermia.

Rustems injuries could be explained if he was struggling to stay conscious and fell repeatedly while trying to climb the slope back to the tent.

9.  Back at the ravine Lyuda, Semyon, Thibo and Kolevatov all eventually die from a combination of their injuries, the cold and nitrogen dioxide poisoning.  Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem never come back.  The deaths of Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo can be explained.  Their injuries combined with the cold would have killed them even without nitrogen dioxide poisoning.  However, Kolevetov did not have such significant injuries.  He was reasonably dressed and could have taken more clothing off Semyon, and Thibo after they had died.  He was also better sheltered from the cold in the ravine and the makeshift den.  He could have even went back to the cedar and the fire to keep warm and yet he died too.  His jacket was unbuttoned and unzipped.  This is very odd unless there was some other thing that was acting on them to kill them, like nitrogen dioxide poisoning.  There is evidence that suggests that Dorishenko' and Rustem demise was not from hypothermia, and their physical injuries were described as non life threatening.

By the early hours of the next day they are all dead and it is over.

I have a few comments.

Point no.5:"Semyon, Lyuda and Thibo all fall from high up in the tree and land hard on the ground sustaining significant injuries". 
- and Zolotarev camera around neck remained undamaged???

"If the cedar tree was only used as a look out or vantage point or to collect fire wood why would those with frost bite want to climb the tree, when it would be extremely difficult to do so, especially when there were others with less frost bite and better dressed". 
- Yuri  could climb a tree to see if the tent and its surroundings were all right for their possible return. Then he came down from the tree down and gets frost bite later.

Point no. 8: "The fire is not enough to ensure their survival and they know they can not carry the injured back to the tent, so they scout around for a more sheltered area and find the ravine 70 meters away and decide it would be a better place to build a shelter. "
- The area of shelter was so large that only 4 people could sit (not laying) inside . Because of this, it could not be built to save the injured.

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 21, 2019, 08:42:37 AM
Could this military personnel be involved in the violent death of the 4 in the ravine?

Anyway, your theory could be confirmed or proven wrong if we had some soil samples from the region around the Dead mountain, especially from the backside. I guess a good laboratory could find traces of a nuclear explosion even today. The next expedition should take some soil samples and then we crowd-fund the analysis. ;)

And one more thing... Along the ridges of the Dead mountain there are a lot of weather-worn rocks, very characteristic. Wouldn't some of them have been pushed away by a shockwave? On the other hand they are streamlined by the wind running over the ridges.

regards

Dominov

I would not rule out subsequent military intervention but I think that the injuries were sustained before the ravine because if they hadn’t then why didn’t they all attempt to return to the camp? I think the den was made as a shelter because those still able knew they would not be able to carry the injured back to the camp.

Yes there would be evidence today from ground core samples.

The shock wave was not that powerful. Only 5 psi over pressure at 500 metres.

The injuries of the ravine 4 still require some further research.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 21, 2019, 08:57:25 AM
I have asked the same question about the camera myself. If it fell with Semyon then it doesn’t have to break.  Especially if he landed on his side/back as it’s fall would be cushioned. Also it may have just survived the impact. It is interesting that there is no information on the condition of the camera?

Look at Yuri’s injuries Doroshenko has lots of cuts and abrasions on his forearms legs and his chest around his armpits. How did he get these? I doubt it was from walking down the slope.  He may have got frostbite hanging onto the tree and then found it difficult to climb back down.

I’m skeptical about whether it was a proper designer den. It was probably more a makeshift shelter.  Dyatlov and the others went to get their equipment and gear and probably intended to bring it back.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 21, 2019, 03:01:58 PM
Some further thoughts on the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

I have done a little research on the injury types from falls up to 7m.

85% had thoracic fractures, and or spinal injuries
A small number 25% had smaller fractures to ankles forearms (note many of the people studied actually jumped).  But note that these people were conscious when they fell.

Dubinina had significant thoracic fractures.  But she also had a smashed flattened nose, and a significant bruise on the front of her femur.  As if she had fallen and landed slap bang on her front with her chest taking most of the impact and face following behind in short order, smashing her nose, and possibly damaging the hyoid bone ( think its called that).  She may well have bit part of her tongue off too as her face hit the ground.

Zolotaryov, had significant damage to his chest and ribs on the right side of his body.  He also had a significant laceration on his head exposing the skull ( on the same side as his broken ribs).  So it looks like he fell backwards landing partially on his right side, his ribs taking most ofnthe force, followed by his head hitting the ground and causing a severe cut.  I believe there has also been discussion that he fractured his collar bone.

So it seems even more likey that they fell from high in the cedar tree now I looked at the injuries again in more detail.

Only about 25% of people who fell fractured arms or ankles and I suspect this is because they were conscious and tried to break their falls with their hands and feet.  If Kyuda and Semyon had fallen because they had lost consciousness then they would not have tried to break their falls.  Instead their bodies took the full force.

In terms of the missing eyes and the rest of Lyuda's tongue and hypoglossal muscle.  This could be explained by small animals (scavengers) like birds, rats, fox taking them in the days or so before their bodies were covered in snow.


Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 21, 2019, 04:31:50 PM
Some further thoughts on the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

I have done a little research on the injury types from falls up to 7m.

85% had thoracic fractures, and or spinal injuries
A small number 25% had smaller fractures to ankles forearms (note many of the people studied actually jumped).  But note that these people were conscious when they fell.

Dubinina had significant thoracic fractures.  But she also had a smashed flattened nose, and a significant bruise on the front of her femur.  As if she had fallen and landed slap bang on her front with her chest taking most of the impact and face following behind in short order, smashing her nose, and possibly damaging the hyoid bone ( think its called that).  She may well have bit part of her tongue off too as her face hit the ground.

Zolotaryov, had significant damage to his chest and ribs on the right side of his body.  He also had a significant laceration on his head exposing the skull ( on the same side as his broken ribs).  So it looks like he fell backwards landing partially on his right side, his ribs taking most ofnthe force, followed by his head hitting the ground and causing a severe cut.  I believe there has also been discussion that he fractured his collar bone.

So it seems even more likey that they fell from high in the cedar tree now I looked at the injuries again in more detail.

Only about 25% of people who fell fractured arms or ankles and I suspect this is because they were conscious and tried to break their falls with their hands and feet.  If Kyuda and Semyon had fallen because they had lost consciousness then they would not have tried to break their falls.  Instead their bodies took the full force.

In terms of the missing eyes and the rest of Lyuda's tongue and hypoglossal muscle.  This could be explained by small animals (scavengers) like birds, rats, fox taking them in the days or so before their bodies were covered in snow.


I dont see any specific mention of a FRACTURED SPINE  [ thoracic spine ]. Also, how can a very tough BONE [ hyoid bone ] in the position that its in in the human body be severely damaged by a fall, without other organs and skin in that area being severely damaged as well !  ?  apart from the MISSING TONGUE. And there is no evidence of any predators having fed on any of the bodies. And as for the SMASHED FLATTENED NOSE on DUBININA , the CARTILAGE is flattened, but the other NOSE BONES are ok. If a very bad frontal fall resulted in such serious injuries to the chest as you suggest then we should expect even more serious inuries to the front of the face etc apart from a FLATTENED CARTILAGE  !  ? 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 21, 2019, 10:59:39 PM
@starman

I gave your theory a little bit more thought. A low yield nuke would most certainly melt the snow on the ridges of the Dead Mountain. This water would first run down the slope of the Dead Mountain and flood the tent. Another good reason to leave the tent urgently. After a short while the icy wind would freeze that water. This is an additional threat. People walking down the slope could slip, fall and slide down the slope and could get seriously injured. Footprints disappeared after 500 meters... There are areas on this slope where the snow layer was/is very thin due to the wind. A layer of ice there could be deadly for descending people.

Then: If you see a shrinking ball of light in the distance you could interpret it as a light flying away from you. But noone on the other hand reported to have heard an explosion.
Edit: It would take the sound of an explosion 3.5 minutes to reach a person 70 km further south. So people probably wouldn't associate the sound and the light incident.

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 21, 2019, 11:26:42 PM
Some further thoughts on the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

I have done a little research on the injury types from falls up to 7m.

85% had thoracic fractures, and or spinal injuries
A small number 25% had smaller fractures to ankles forearms (note many of the people studied actually jumped).  But note that these people were conscious when they fell.

Dubinina had significant thoracic fractures.  But she also had a smashed flattened nose, and a significant bruise on the front of her femur.  As if she had fallen and landed slap bang on her front with her chest taking most of the impact and face following behind in short order, smashing her nose, and possibly damaging the hyoid bone ( think its called that).  She may well have bit part of her tongue off too as her face hit the ground.

Zolotaryov, had significant damage to his chest and ribs on the right side of his body.  He also had a significant laceration on his head exposing the skull ( on the same side as his broken ribs).  So it looks like he fell backwards landing partially on his right side, his ribs taking most ofnthe force, followed by his head hitting the ground and causing a severe cut.  I believe there has also been discussion that he fractured his collar bone.

So it seems even more likey that they fell from high in the cedar tree now I looked at the injuries again in more detail.

Only about 25% of people who fell fractured arms or ankles and I suspect this is because they were conscious and tried to break their falls with their hands and feet.  If Kyuda and Semyon had fallen because they had lost consciousness then they would not have tried to break their falls.  Instead their bodies took the full force.

In terms of the missing eyes and the rest of Lyuda's tongue and hypoglossal muscle.  This could be explained by small animals (scavengers) like birds, rats, fox taking them in the days or so before their bodies were covered in snow.


I dont see any specific mention of a FRACTURED SPINE  [ thoracic spine ]. Also, how can a very tough BONE [ hyoid bone ] in the position that its in in the human body be severely damaged by a fall, without other organs and skin in that area being severely damaged as well !  ?  apart from the MISSING TONGUE. And there is no evidence of any predators having fed on any of the bodies. And as for the SMASHED FLATTENED NOSE on DUBININA , the CARTILAGE is flattened, but the other NOSE BONES are ok. If a very bad frontal fall resulted in such serious injuries to the chest as you suggest then we should expect even more serious inuries to the front of the face etc apart from a FLATTENED CARTILAGE  !  ?

Good challenges, but all injuries to body as per autopsy can be explained by a single fall and impact apart from eye. Hyoid bone was described as having strange movements but not broken. The bruise on her femur is very big.

Spinal injuries likely to be a factor of how you land and more likely if you land on feet or back. Neither of them seem to have landed that way hence frontal and side injuries.

Thibo must have landed head first, poor guy.
I doubt that there would be no small animals in the area.

Regards Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 21, 2019, 11:32:10 PM
@starman

I gave your theory a little bit more thought. A low yield nuke would most certainly melt the snow on the ridges of the Dead Mountain. This water would first run down the slope of the Dead Mountain and flood the tent. Another good reason to leave the tent urgently. After a short while the icy wind would freeze that water. This is an additional threat. People walking down the slope could slip, fall and slide down the slope and could get seriously injured. Footprints disappeared after 500 meters... There are areas on this slope where the snow layer was/is very thin due to the wind. A layer of ice there could be deadly for descending people.

Then: If you see a shrinking ball of light in the distance you could interpret it as a light flying away from you. But noone on the other hand reported to have heard an explosion.
Edit: It would take the sound of an explosion 3.5 minutes to reach a person 70 km further south. So people probably wouldn't associate the sound and the light incident.

regards

Dominov

Dominov, check out “neutron bomb” on Wikipedia. Also look at nuclear fire balls.  It has useful information that will help put things in context.

Yes melting snow that then freezes again would be likely, particularly directly under the test point.  thumb1

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 22, 2019, 01:32:01 AM
Indeed, it could be a song of ice and fire (and water) :)

Assuming water poured into the tent, which was a perfect pool for water, then they would first want to dry the their clothes. Fire in or around the tent was impossible because everything was wet. So the descent to the forest starts making more sense. In this extremly cold conditions they had to dry their clothes first. Being wet in temperatures of -30 degress is extremy lethal. The addtional clothes in the tent were also wet. They couldn't warm them in this situation.

I like to suggest water caused by a nuke as a serious alternative to your poisonous smog. If there was this smog they didn't have to climb the tree. Running up the slope behind them would have offered the same protection.

And assuming they entered an icy area while descending, some of them would slip, fall, being seriously hurt hitting their heads and chests on the ground. Kolmogorova and Slobin may have died while descending, because if they fainted they also died. Dyatwlos mission wasn't returning to the tent but finding the two lost persons on the slope (alternative interpretation). The lookout post in the cedar tried to locate the tent. It may have been washed away. They dried their clothes at the fireplace. The most underdressed died first. The ravine remains a mistery. Something else happened there. I guess they were waiting for the daylight. Maybe the snow broke and they fell into the creek flowing under the snow layer. I can't explain the missing eyeballs. Dubinina's tongue simply decayed.

I start liking the low yield nuke theory. I makes more sense than mine, although similiar things could have occured with thermobaric bombs...

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 04:28:49 AM
Indeed, it could be a song of ice and fire (and water) :)

Assuming water poured into the tent, which was a perfect pool for water, then they would first want to dry the their clothes. Fire in or around the tent was impossible because everything was wet. So the descent to the forest starts making more sense. In this extremly cold conditions they had to dry their clothes first. Being wet in temperatures of -30 degress is extremy lethal. The addtional clothes in the tent were also wet. They couldn't warm them in this situation.

I like to suggest water caused by a nuke as a serious alternative to your poisonous smog. If there was this smog they didn't have to climb the tree. Running up the slope behind them would have offered the same protection.

And assuming they entered an icy area while descending, some of them would slip, fall, being seriously hurt hitting their heads and chests on the ground. Kolmogorova and Slobin may have died while descending, because if they fainted they also died. Dyatwlos mission wasn't returning to the tent but finding the two lost persons on the slope (alternative interpretation). The lookout post in the cedar tried to locate the tent. It may have been washed away. They dried their clothes at the fireplace. The most underdressed died first. The ravine remains a mistery. Something else happened there. I guess they were waiting for the daylight. Maybe the snow broke and they fell into the creek flowing under the snow layer. I can't explain the missing eyeballs. Dubinina's tongue simply decayed.

I start liking the low yield nuke theory. I makes more sense than mine, although similiar things could have occured with thermobaric bombs...

regards

Dominov

You are right about the cause. I’m still not convinced it was a nuke. It could have been some other kind of problem. A chemical device. Chlorine would have a similar effect.  However a nuke would be able to explain the circumstances and some of the circumstantial evidence like the request for radiation checks.

I don’t think we can abandon the toxic gas cloud. Doroshenko clearly looks like he died from oedema. 

Although the thermal radiation from a nuke would melt some snow, the heat flash would only last several seconds and snow is very reflective . I would expect there to be an ice sheet created within a km or so of the detonation.  For the theory to be right it would have to have been up wind and that places it to the south west over the top of the summit. This means that the group would have been shielded from the worst of the radiation and heat flash.  So the melted snow would be on the other side of the mountain and possible further down on the Dyatlov side.





Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 22, 2019, 07:42:24 AM
@starman

I like working with you on this ;)

Ok, let's not abandon the poisonous (probably hot) dust cloud. Falling winds could have drawn these hot and poisonous particles over the tree tops probably burning some of them, probably hitting Doroschenko who sat in the tree. Hence the edema. Hence the impression of scorched marks which according to Ivanov were distributed like beams.

Ok, this thing explodes, snow is vaporized, is blown in the surroundings, cools, rains down, freezes very quickly. Maybe it was raining. The snow on the ridges would definitively melt, flowing down the steeper parts of the slope, flooding the tent where seven people tried to prepare for the night.

On the lower and wind-exposed parts of the slope the water would freeze immediately and become a dangerous ice slope. All kind of injuries could happen there, injuries which are consistent with the one's of the victims. That would be a bob run without a protecting bob: 100 meters, 200 meters, 400 meters.

People try to grab something, a bush for example. Hence injuries like Krivonischenko's fingers. Others collide with bushes. Hence Kolmogorova's injury on the tibia. And others like Kolevatov, Thibo and Slobodin fall on their head. Maybe several times.

Why has none considered water yet? Obviously because it was winter.

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 08:11:44 AM
Where are we getting the 'burnt treetops' from?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 22, 2019, 08:50:10 AM
Where are we getting the 'burnt treetops' from?

Didn't Ivanov mention them in an interview back in 1990. Or is this fake news? Some way or another it would be consistent with the low yield nuke theory.

And then again these burned tree tops can be neglected.

Regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 08:54:23 AM
@starman

I like working with you on this ;)

Ok, let's not abandon the poisonous (probably hot) dust cloud. Falling winds could have drawn these hot and poisonous particles over the tree tops probably burning some of them, probably hitting Doroschenko who sat in the tree. Hence the edema. Hence the impression of scorched marks which according to Ivanov were distributed like beams.

Ok, this thing explodes, snow is vaporized, is blown in the surroundings, cools, rains down, freezes very quickly. Maybe it was raining. The snow on the ridges would definitively melt, flowing down the steeper parts of the slope, flooding the tent where seven people tried to prepare for the night.

On the lower and wind-exposed parts of the slope the water would freeze immediately and become a dangerous ice slope. All kind of injuries could happen there, injuries which are consistent with the one's of the victims. That would be a bob run without a protecting bob: 100 meters, 200 meters, 400 meters.

People try to grab something, a bush for example. Hence injuries like Krivonischenko's fingers. Others collide with bushes. Hence Kolmogorova's injury on the tibia. And others like Kolevatov, Thibo and Slobodin fall on their head. Maybe several times.

Why has none considered water yet? Obviously because it was winter.

regards

Dominov

Ok so the key to solving this mystery is identifying a credible sequence of events with each component underpinned with suitable arguments and evidence.  There is actually a lot of information available. Some of it is fact, some of it is speculative and some of it is circumstantial. Some of the information available may seem unimportant but none of it is. Every piece of information is a part of the story. Every scratch, bruise, sock, tree branch. Some clues when combined can provide further insight.

Just need to put all the pieces of the puzzle together into a complete picture that makes logical sense.

So that said we need to look for irrefutable evidence if there is any that supports the narrative.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 08:57:34 AM
Where are we getting the 'burnt treetops' from?

Didn't Ivanov mention them in an interview back in 1990. Or is this fake news? Some way or another it would be consistent with the low yield nuke theory.

And then again these burned tree tops can be neglected.

Regards

Dominov

It is circumstantial evidence.  So can’t be used to build a strong argument alone.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 09:21:46 AM
Fake news
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 22, 2019, 11:19:24 AM
Some further thoughts on the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

I have done a little research on the injury types from falls up to 7m.

85% had thoracic fractures, and or spinal injuries
A small number 25% had smaller fractures to ankles forearms (note many of the people studied actually jumped).  But note that these people were conscious when they fell.

Dubinina had significant thoracic fractures.  But she also had a smashed flattened nose, and a significant bruise on the front of her femur.  As if she had fallen and landed slap bang on her front with her chest taking most of the impact and face following behind in short order, smashing her nose, and possibly damaging the hyoid bone ( think its called that).  She may well have bit part of her tongue off too as her face hit the ground.

Zolotaryov, had significant damage to his chest and ribs on the right side of his body.  He also had a significant laceration on his head exposing the skull ( on the same side as his broken ribs).  So it looks like he fell backwards landing partially on his right side, his ribs taking most ofnthe force, followed by his head hitting the ground and causing a severe cut.  I believe there has also been discussion that he fractured his collar bone.

So it seems even more likey that they fell from high in the cedar tree now I looked at the injuries again in more detail.

Only about 25% of people who fell fractured arms or ankles and I suspect this is because they were conscious and tried to break their falls with their hands and feet.  If Kyuda and Semyon had fallen because they had lost consciousness then they would not have tried to break their falls.  Instead their bodies took the full force.

In terms of the missing eyes and the rest of Lyuda's tongue and hypoglossal muscle.  This could be explained by small animals (scavengers) like birds, rats, fox taking them in the days or so before their bodies were covered in snow.


I dont see any specific mention of a FRACTURED SPINE  [ thoracic spine ]. Also, how can a very tough BONE [ hyoid bone ] in the position that its in in the human body be severely damaged by a fall, without other organs and skin in that area being severely damaged as well !  ?  apart from the MISSING TONGUE. And there is no evidence of any predators having fed on any of the bodies. And as for the SMASHED FLATTENED NOSE on DUBININA , the CARTILAGE is flattened, but the other NOSE BONES are ok. If a very bad frontal fall resulted in such serious injuries to the chest as you suggest then we should expect even more serious inuries to the front of the face etc apart from a FLATTENED CARTILAGE  !  ?

Good challenges, but all injuries to body as per autopsy can be explained by a single fall and impact apart from eye. Hyoid bone was described as having strange movements but not broken. The bruise on her femur is very big.

Spinal injuries likely to be a factor of how you land and more likely if you land on feet or back. Neither of them seem to have landed that way hence frontal and side injuries.

Thibo must have landed head first, poor guy.
I doubt that there would be no small animals in the area.

Regards Star man


So you reckon that all the injuries apart from the missing eyes that were caused to DUBININA were caused by a single fall  !  ?  Must have been a strange kind of fall then. No broken bones to the nose and no broken bones anywhere else to the face or head. And the Hyoid bone is very strong and would take a lot of force to damage or loosen, but not from a fall of any kind. And where does it say that there were specific Spine injuries  !  ?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 01:41:38 PM
Welp,. if they fell into the ravine, they fell onto boulders.   

When I snapped my arm falling out of a tree as a kid, I didn't have any other injuries.  I don't think anyone can suggest any particular fall should result in any particular injuries.  Its all about how you land, what you hit, and how much force was applied/absorbed. 

Its like the camera not being broken in a fall.  Things on a lanyard swing, things that swing could have not been in the direct line of said impact. 

To assume there was no fall because the camera survived is like saying there was no fall because my ribs were not broken. 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 02:45:53 PM
Some further thoughts on the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

I have done a little research on the injury types from falls up to 7m.

85% had thoracic fractures, and or spinal injuries
A small number 25% had smaller fractures to ankles forearms (note many of the people studied actually jumped).  But note that these people were conscious when they fell.

Dubinina had significant thoracic fractures.  But she also had a smashed flattened nose, and a significant bruise on the front of her femur.  As if she had fallen and landed slap bang on her front with her chest taking most of the impact and face following behind in short order, smashing her nose, and possibly damaging the hyoid bone ( think its called that).  She may well have bit part of her tongue off too as her face hit the ground.

Zolotaryov, had significant damage to his chest and ribs on the right side of his body.  He also had a significant laceration on his head exposing the skull ( on the same side as his broken ribs).  So it looks like he fell backwards landing partially on his right side, his ribs taking most ofnthe force, followed by his head hitting the ground and causing a severe cut.  I believe there has also been discussion that he fractured his collar bone.

So it seems even more likey that they fell from high in the cedar tree now I looked at the injuries again in more detail.

Only about 25% of people who fell fractured arms or ankles and I suspect this is because they were conscious and tried to break their falls with their hands and feet.  If Kyuda and Semyon had fallen because they had lost consciousness then they would not have tried to break their falls.  Instead their bodies took the full force.

In terms of the missing eyes and the rest of Lyuda's tongue and hypoglossal muscle.  This could be explained by small animals (scavengers) like birds, rats, fox taking them in the days or so before their bodies were covered in snow.


I dont see any specific mention of a FRACTURED SPINE  [ thoracic spine ]. Also, how can a very tough BONE [ hyoid bone ] in the position that its in in the human body be severely damaged by a fall, without other organs and skin in that area being severely damaged as well !  ?  apart from the MISSING TONGUE. And there is no evidence of any predators having fed on any of the bodies. And as for the SMASHED FLATTENED NOSE on DUBININA , the CARTILAGE is flattened, but the other NOSE BONES are ok. If a very bad frontal fall resulted in such serious injuries to the chest as you suggest then we should expect even more serious inuries to the front of the face etc apart from a FLATTENED CARTILAGE  !  ?

Good challenges, but all injuries to body as per autopsy can be explained by a single fall and impact apart from eye. Hyoid bone was described as having strange movements but not broken. The bruise on her femur is very big.

Spinal injuries likely to be a factor of how you land and more likely if you land on feet or back. Neither of them seem to have landed that way hence frontal and side injuries.

Thibo must have landed head first, poor guy.
I doubt that there would be no small animals in the area.

Regards Star man


So you reckon that all the injuries apart from the missing eyes that were caused to DUBININA were caused by a single fall  !  ?  Must have been a strange kind of fall then. No broken bones to the nose and no broken bones anywhere else to the face or head. And the Hyoid bone is very strong and would take a lot of force to damage or loosen, but not from a fall of any kind. And where does it say that there were specific Spine injuries  !  ?

I googled fall injuries from trees and just general fall injuries.  Results said that the most likely injuries, were thoractic, head, spinal injuries.  Only 25% had fractures to limbs and these were mainly ankles ( I.e from landing on your feet) and forearms (I.e from trying to break your fall with hands).  However, if you are unconscious and floppy it is your body that will take most of the impact, not your limbs.  Spinal injuries also related to landing on feet and probably on back.

Dubinina's injuries are consistent with a fall injury.  That doesn't mean they had to happen that way, but I think there is strong evidence that it was a fall.

Look at the injuries to her chest.  On the right hand side, there are 2 clean lines of fracture through the ribs.  On the left 1 clean line of fracture.  This would indicate to me that they all broke together due to a significant crush event and it is unlikely that the rib fracture was the result of multiple impacts.  The ribs have fractured together at the highest  points of stress.  The rib fractures are toward the front mainly which makes it look like the sternum was forced backwards.  A flat impact from height onto her chest would do this.  Her nose is crushed but yes her facial bones are not broken.  She doesn't have any broken limbs, but she does have a significant bruise on her femur which could indicate that it took a large impact but didn't break.

Semyon's injuries are similar in nature but only on one side.  if he hit the ground at a different angle then you would expect this.  The cut to his head revealed his skull.  This was on the same side as his ribs.

So to me it looks like they could be explained from them falling from the tree.

Of course  I would not say that this is definitely what happened. 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 02:50:58 PM
Welp,. if they fell into the ravine, they fell onto boulders.   

When I snapped my arm falling out of a tree as a kid, I didn't have any other injuries.  I don't think anyone can suggest any particular fall should result in any particular injuries.  Its all about how you land, what you hit, and how much force was applied/absorbed. 

Its like the camera not being broken in a fall.  Things on a lanyard swing, things that swing could have not been in the direct line of said impact. 

To assume there was no fall because the camera survived is like saying there was no fall because my ribs were not broken.

Kids bones are really flexible.  When you fell did you instinctively try to turn and break your fall with hands?  How far did you fall?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 05:58:44 PM
I was 8 years old and fell from the height of about 12 feet.  The socket going around the ball of my left elbow was snapped when it struck a lower branch on the way down.  The strike spun my body like a football horizontally the last 5 or so feet and I landed on that same arm tucked against my side/front.  I landed horizontally as if lying in bed on your side.   I know all to well how a tree + gravity can mess you up from a modest height before you even reach the ground.  I don't believe most people understand the 'gravity' of a free fall situation.  Im reminded everytime the barometric pressure changes rapidly, or I walk through a metal detector.  Your just a helpless ragdoll striking objects that dont 'give', how it ends at the bottom is lottery.  You could land on your head and 'deform' your neck, or land on a log with your ribcage.....  the possible outcomes are endless.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 11:05:50 PM
I was 8 years old and fell from the height of about 12 feet.  The socket going around the ball of my left elbow was snapped when it struck a lower branch on the way down.  The strike spun my body like a football horizontally the last 5 or so feet and I landed on that same arm tucked against my side/front.  I landed horizontally as if lying in bed on your side.   I know all to well how a tree + gravity can mess you up from a modest height before you even reach the ground.  I don't believe most people understand the 'gravity' of a free fall situation.  Im reminded everytime the barometric pressure changes rapidly, or I walk through a metal detector.  Your just a helpless ragdoll striking objects that dont 'give', how it ends at the bottom is lottery.  You could land on your head and 'deform' your neck, or land on a log with your ribcage.....  the possible outcomes are endless.

Ouch!!! Sounds like a nasty injury  shock1

Yeah I think there are many possible outcomes from tree fall.

I was sceptical about a tree fall being the potential reason for the injuries in the ravine but it seems much more credible to me now.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
Doroschenko injuries. How did he get them?

I doubt he got them walking down the slope? Yes, he may have slipped several times and got some cuts and abrasions on his hands and arms, but doubt he got the scratches, bruises and cuts around his armpits that way?  I doubt he got them putting his deodorant on either.

So how did he get them?  Given that as far as we know there was the slope and the cedar tree it seems more likely that he got them climbing the tree.

Those who were better dressed with more layers didn’t have as many cuts and abrasions.

So if he did get them climbing up and down the tree why was he climbing the tree given that there were others with better clothing to climb?

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 22, 2019, 11:49:20 PM
Another question.  9 ski hikers with a good fire die. Why?

Some of them had reasonable insulation. Others less. But these guys were a team. They were fit, resourceful and intelligent.

They could have maintained the body temperature of those less prepared by using the fire. If the wind was strong and the fire was not as effective they could have all huddled close together with the least well dressed in the middle and rotated those on the outside to survive the cold. IMO there was no reason why they could not have survived the cold given that strategy plus a hot fire.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 23, 2019, 12:44:10 PM
Welp,. if they fell into the ravine, they fell onto boulders.   

When I snapped my arm falling out of a tree as a kid, I didn't have any other injuries.  I don't think anyone can suggest any particular fall should result in any particular injuries.  Its all about how you land, what you hit, and how much force was applied/absorbed. 

Its like the camera not being broken in a fall.  Things on a lanyard swing, things that swing could have not been in the direct line of said impact. 

To assume there was no fall because the camera survived is like saying there was no fall because my ribs were not broken.


Its true that its how you fall and from what height and onto what kind of surface or object. We really need more information on those Rib injuries. But also more information regarding the missing Tongue and Hyoid Bone. And lets not forget the missing Eyes and other bits of the Face.










Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 23, 2019, 02:23:19 PM
Welp,. if they fell into the ravine, they fell onto boulders.   

When I snapped my arm falling out of a tree as a kid, I didn't have any other injuries.  I don't think anyone can suggest any particular fall should result in any particular injuries.  Its all about how you land, what you hit, and how much force was applied/absorbed. 

Its like the camera not being broken in a fall.  Things on a lanyard swing, things that swing could have not been in the direct line of said impact. 

To assume there was no fall because the camera survived is like saying there was no fall because my ribs were not broken.


Its true that its how you fall and from what height and onto what kind of surface or object. We really need more information on those Rib injuries. But also more information regarding the missing Tongue and Hyoid Bone. And lets not forget the missing Eyes and other bits of the Face.

What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.  More information on the injuries would be very useful.

Also the histological report available only seems to cover those in the ravine and there isn't anything on the chemical analysis from what I can see.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 23, 2019, 04:07:35 PM
I guess, it never was the intention to solve this case. They wanted it closed as fast as possible. And some facts were never to be revealed to the public. We won't get them and I am convinced that there are no extended files. Nonetheless there are a lot of clues.

Right now I'm counting socks. There were millions of socks, scattered around the cedar, hidden in pockets. And I'm counting pieces of clothing. I'm baffled how many clothes they actually had out there. They didn't even use them. Gloves in pockets (WTF)... Cut trousers and sweaters in the snow, jackets and trousers used as cushions. The notion that they were almost naked and barefooted is a mistake or an intentional exaggeration. Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks. I've never tried to put on that many socks in my entire lifetime. I'm not sure if that's even possible ;)

Maybe it's all about socks ;)

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 23, 2019, 04:24:19 PM
Quote
What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.

What I find interesting is that the medical examiner never signed the autopsy report on the ravine 4 which should theoretically render them unofficial.  Why would the examiner not sign off on their own examination report?   They did on the other 5.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 23, 2019, 04:27:10 PM
Quote
Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks.

 lol2

I think that would be total for the trip right?   Heck, I would want more.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 23, 2019, 04:30:23 PM
Quote
On the legs are brown wool (illegible) with fur insoles; under them are blue and brown woolen socks.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-127-134?rbid=17743

Note.....  their valenki were fur lined valenki.   Thats some warm footwear right there!
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 23, 2019, 10:46:27 PM
I guess, it never was the intention to solve this case. They wanted it closed as fast as possible. And some facts were never to be revealed to the public. We won't get them and I am convinced that there are no extended files. Nonetheless there are a lot of clues.

Right now I'm counting socks. There were millions of socks, scattered around the cedar, hidden in pockets. And I'm counting pieces of clothing. I'm baffled how many clothes they actually had out there. They didn't even use them. Gloves in pockets (WTF)... Cut trousers and sweaters in the snow, jackets and trousers used as cushions. The notion that they were almost naked and barefooted is a mistake or an intentional exaggeration. Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks. I've never tried to put on that many socks in my entire lifetime. I'm not sure if that's even possible ;)

Maybe it's all about socks ;)

regards

Dominov

Yes I agree.  When I first stared looking at the DPI it seemed obvious that they must have died due to the severe cold and lack of clothing, but the devil is in the detail.  Counting clothes is a good idea.  I was doing this yesterday.  In particular checking number of felt boots left in the tent.  7 which lines up with Rustem wearing only 1 felt boot leaving an odd number in the tent.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 23, 2019, 10:50:58 PM
Quote
What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.

What I find interesting is that the medical examiner never signed the autopsy report on the ravine 4 which should theoretically render them unofficial.  Why would the examiner not sign off on their own examination report?   They did on the other 5.

Good point LC.  To be honest I find it hard to understand how the investigation missed so much obvious inconsistencies with cause of death.  I know that originally the search and rescue thought they were still alive so spoiled the scenes and evidence like the tent, but it just seems the investigation was poor beyond belief.  I am no Sherlock homes, but if I can find inconsistencies then surely Ivanov and co should have been interested in them.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 24, 2019, 09:53:48 AM
What if the Dyatov group was the team to observe and document the test of a new kind of low yield neutron bomb during an expedition that was cloaked as mountain hike.

They brought along an unusual amount of cameras which were expensive and not available for the general public at that time. The team consisted of radio und nuclear experts. Spoon? What about the freaking spoon?

Was Zolotaryov's film exposed to radiation rather than light?

Was this a paramilitary science mission?

I start believing so.

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 24, 2019, 12:29:39 PM
Quote
What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.

What I find interesting is that the medical examiner never signed the autopsy report on the ravine 4 which should theoretically render them unofficial.  Why would the examiner not sign off on their own examination report?   They did on the other 5.

Yes there is no excuse for the Medical Examiner not to do their job correctly even if the investigation in the field was poor.  In fact it amounts to a poor investigation all round. WHY  !  ? 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 24, 2019, 02:31:20 PM
What if the Dyatov group was the team to observe and document the test of a new kind of low yield neutron bomb during an expedition that was cloaked as mountain hike.

They brought along an unusual amount of cameras which were expensive and not available for the general public at that time. The team consisted of radio und nuclear experts. Spoon? What about the freaking spoon?

Was Zolotaryov's film exposed to radiation rather than light?

Was this a paramilitary science mission?

I start believing so.

Dominov

Its possible.  I have considered the same thing.  They may have not anticipated a collapsing toxic mushroom cloud coming their way.

Saying that I would have expected them all to have been more prepared for the test.  Fully dressed with all cameras set up etc?  Or is itmpossible that some of them were there to observe while others were not aware?  It's an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 04:53:53 AM
I guess, it never was the intention to solve this case. They wanted it closed as fast as possible. And some facts were never to be revealed to the public. We won't get them and I am convinced that there are no extended files. Nonetheless there are a lot of clues.

Right now I'm counting socks. There were millions of socks, scattered around the cedar, hidden in pockets. And I'm counting pieces of clothing. I'm baffled how many clothes they actually had out there. They didn't even use them. Gloves in pockets (WTF)... Cut trousers and sweaters in the snow, jackets and trousers used as cushions. The notion that they were almost naked and barefooted is a mistake or an intentional exaggeration. Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks. I've never tried to put on that many socks in my entire lifetime. I'm not sure if that's even possible ;)

Maybe it's all about socks ;)

regards

Dominov

Did you find anything interesting about the socks?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 25, 2019, 08:34:30 AM
Socks, yes.... there are many.

First I miscounted. Kolmogorova only wore 3 pairs of socks. Still a lot. No shoes.

Dyatlov one cotton, one wollen. No shoes.

Slobodin: one cotton sock in pocket? AND 4 pairs of socks! No shoes

Doroschenko: different set of wool socks on both feet. One burnt. No shoes

Dubinina: two pairs of warm sock. A third sock was not paired. No shoes

Kolevatov: His right foot was also protected by a light sock underneath a woolen one (2)
His left foot had similar three socks (3) - no shoes

Zolotaryov: pair of socks under boots (burka)

Thibeaux: hand-knitted woolen socks under boots (Valenki)

Krivonischenko: torn sock on his left foot (1)

Under Cedar: Several wool and cotton socks were scattered around the fire?

And the winner is... Slobodin.

But it's a freaking mess ;)

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 25, 2019, 08:46:49 AM
I seems as if those without shoes had plenty of time putting on or taking along socks instead of boots. Those with shoes only wore one pair of socks.

So where were their shoes? Apparently not in the tent.

The mystery continues :)

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 08:53:02 AM
I seems as if those without shoes had plenty of time putting on or taking along socks instead of boots. Those with shoes only wore one pair of socks.

So where were their shoes? Apparently not in the tent.

The mystery continues :)

Dominov

Weren’t the shoes/ boots piled up near the entrance of the tent?  If they were not all there then that would be an interesting turn of events.

Also it’s strange that there was so much going on with the socks  bang1
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 25, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
What if the Dyatov group was the team to observe and document the test of a new kind of low yield neutron bomb during an expedition that was cloaked as mountain hike.

They brought along an unusual amount of cameras which were expensive and not available for the general public at that time. The team consisted of radio und nuclear experts. Spoon? What about the freaking spoon?

Was Zolotaryov's film exposed to radiation rather than light?

Was this a paramilitary science mission?


Isnt it a bit fancyfull that they were there just to observe an Atomic Test  !  ?  It also sounds a bit ridiculous.

I start believing so.

Dominov

Its possible.  I have considered the same thing.  They may have not anticipated a collapsing toxic mushroom cloud coming their way.

Saying that I would have expected them all to have been more prepared for the test.  Fully dressed with all cameras set up etc?  Or is itmpossible that some of them were there to observe while others were not aware?  It's an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 25, 2019, 10:50:27 AM
I seems as if those without shoes had plenty of time putting on or taking along socks instead of boots. Those with shoes only wore one pair of socks.

So where were their shoes? Apparently not in the tent.

The mystery continues :)

Dominov

Well I suspect that they all wore their Socks  Day and Night. But they would take their Boots off at Night to sleep I guess. So so many Socks isnt really a surprise, given the extreme weather conditions.

Weren’t the shoes/ boots piled up near the entrance of the tent?  If they were not all there then that would be an interesting turn of events.

Also it’s strange that there was so much going on with the socks  bang1
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 25, 2019, 03:23:55 PM
@sarapuk

Do not fake or alter my postings. See picture below.

I've never said that.


(https://i.ibb.co/DW2GLq6/enough.png) (https://ibb.co/02bBQwW)
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 03:51:46 PM
When I get some time I am going to analyse the rib fractures in more detail.  If the available diagrams of where the breaks were are accurate then the geometry of the fractures may hold some clues to how they happened.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 25, 2019, 05:55:21 PM
@sarapuk

Do not fake or alter my postings. See picture below.

I've never said that.


(https://i.ibb.co/DW2GLq6/enough.png) (https://ibb.co/02bBQwW)

Its not intentional.   He just needs to insert his text below the quoted content rather then within it.   
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 26, 2019, 04:13:20 AM
@Loose Canon
I see.
@sarapuk
No problem. I understand.
@Star Man

The sock business is puzzling. Why didn't the search team try to count the socks around the cedar? All we know is there were several scattered around the tree. We're they wet? They could have tried to dry them around the fire. Socks seemed to be vital for these weather conditions. But they just left them behind? Dyatlov only wore two different socks. He's actually the loser in the sock game. Didn't he even make it to the cedar?
Kolmogorova must have been at the cedar. She lost a cuff there. And why the heck did Slobodin have a sock in his pocket when he actually wore 4 pairs of them.

So why did they have some many socks but no shoes or boots?

What also puzzles me is that Thibeaux had two wollen gloves in his pockets? Weren't they supposed to freeze?

Could a nuke create a bubble of hot air which last for several hours? In the Ural, in wintertime? I don't think so. What is your opinion?

regards Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 26, 2019, 11:44:08 AM
@sarapuk

Do not fake or alter my postings. See picture below.

I've never said that.


(https://i.ibb.co/DW2GLq6/enough.png) (https://ibb.co/02bBQwW)

Its not intentional.   He just needs to insert his text below the quoted content rather then within it.   



Apologies.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 26, 2019, 11:50:58 AM
Regarding Socks and Shoes.  They are most likely to have been wearing Socks both Day and Night whereas with Shoes they would most likely take them off to sleep. And if any one as have ever been Camping or Hiking in the Hills or Mountains then they will know that extra pairs of Socks are a must have item.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 26, 2019, 04:08:06 PM
@Loose Canon
I see.
@sarapuk
No problem. I understand.
@Star Man

The sock business is puzzling. Why didn't the search team try to count the socks around the cedar? All we know is there were several scattered around the tree. We're they wet? They could have tried to dry them around the fire. Socks seemed to be vital for these weather conditions. But they just left them behind? Dyatlov only wore two different socks. He's actually the loser in the sock game. Didn't he even make it to the cedar?
Kolmogorova must have been at the cedar. She lost a cuff there. And why the heck did Slobodin have a sock in his pocket when he actually wore 4 pairs of them.

So why did they have some many socks but no shoes or boots?

What also puzzles me is that Thibeaux had two wollen gloves in his pockets? Weren't they supposed to freeze?

Could a nuke create a bubble of hot air which last for several hours? In the Ural, in wintertime? I don't think so. What is your opinion?

regards Dominov

You make some really good points.  Let's look at them:

1. Socks discarded.  These could have been used on feet and even hands to prevent frost bite.
2. Gloves in pocket.  Not the sort of thing you would expect from people freezing to death.
3. Jackets unzipped. 
4. Good fire by the cedar tree

Hmmm doesn't sound like a group of people who thought the cold was a significant threat to their lives?

Dyatlov - why would he set off back to the tent with only two pairs of socks when he could have three or four.

You maybe right.  Maybe he didn't make to the cedar.  Only thing is, there is a statement in the case files that says henisnwearing Yuris Yudins sweater.  It's one that Yuris Yudin gave to Krivonischenko ( may have been Dorishenko's, will have to read again).  So did he take it from him under the cedar?  If he didn't make it to the cedar then there was obviously something other than hypothermia that killed him?

When you pull it all together it doesn't paint a picture that these guys only threat to their lives was the cold.  It looks like there was something else affecting their health and decision making.

I doubt a nuclear blast could result in warm conditions for very long on the mountain.  The truth is I think they had the cold under control, expect for maybe if they all had to climb the cedar tree to avoid a low lying blanket of nitrogen dioxide from a collapsed mushroom cloud?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 26, 2019, 04:12:36 PM
It's amazing what insights you can get from socks. kewl1
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 26, 2019, 04:56:56 PM
Just some further thoughts on the damage to Lyuda and Semyon rib cage:

Both Lyuda and Semyon have a double fracture line on the right side at what appears to be the points of highest stress (high radius of curvature at these fracture points).  I still need to do more research on this but it seems to me that we can conclude some things from this:

1. The force was large
2. The force was fast resulting in fast deformation of the bone.
3. The force was spread out across the area where the ribs are broken
4. The force was a result of a single application

The force had to be large to cause the multiple fractures.  Bone tensile strength is about 50MPa.
The force was likely to be fast because we have two fracture lines along some of the ribs.  The bones were deformed past their breaking points so fast that it allowed the forces to increase beyond the yield stress points at two points on the bone.  If the stresses were applied slowly, then one point is likely to be weaker and fail first, relieving the stress on the other weak point.
The force must have been spread out because if it wasn't we would not get the multiple fracture lines and there would be a large concetration of force to the soft tissues which would have left tissue damage or a sever large bruise centred on one point.
The force must have been the result of a single application to result in the clean straight fracture lines through the rib cage..

Still need todo some more thinking to understand the amount of force, but it looks to me like these injuries to the chest were caused by either falling and hitting the ground, or from a pressure wave.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 27, 2019, 03:44:58 PM
Just some further thoughts on the damage to Lyuda and Semyon rib cage:

Both Lyuda and Semyon have a double fracture line on the right side at what appears to be the points of highest stress (high radius of curvature at these fracture points).  I still need to do more research on this but it seems to me that we can conclude some things from this:

1. The force was large
2. The force was fast resulting in fast deformation of the bone.
3. The force was spread out across the area where the ribs are broken
4. The force was a result of a single application

The force had to be large to cause the multiple fractures.  Bone tensile strength is about 50MPa.
The force was likely to be fast because we have two fracture lines along some of the ribs.  The bones were deformed past their breaking points so fast that it allowed the forces to increase beyond the yield stress points at two points on the bone.  If the stresses were applied slowly, then one point is likely to be weaker and fail first, relieving the stress on the other weak point.
The force must have been spread out because if it wasn't we would not get the multiple fracture lines and there would be a large concetration of force to the soft tissues which would have left tissue damage or a sever large bruise centred on one point.
The force must have been the result of a single application to result in the clean straight fracture lines through the rib cage..

Still need todo some more thinking to understand the amount of force, but it looks to me like these injuries to the chest were caused by either falling and hitting the ground, or from a pressure wave.

Just to add some more data:

Amount of force required to break a single rib set for human:

Tensile strength of bone under lateral force is about 50 MPa

Upper range of cross section area of human rib is about 5.5E-5 square metres

Force required to break rib set = 50E6 x 5.5E-5 = 2750 Newtons

Force required to break 10 sets of ribs (as in Lyuda's) case is about 27500 Newtons.  This about 2.7 tonnes of force.

Note that this data is a rough guide only as it takes the upper range of a human rib cross sectional area so is probably an over estimate.

I would say a range of about 2 to 2.7 tonnes would be the kind of force that caused Luda'a chest injury.

This type of force could be a result of:

1. A fall from height of about 5 metres or higher
2. a pressure wave
3. A large impact from something hard and flat and moving fast.

Both 2 and 3 should result in the person being knocked away.  In this case there should be some secondary injuries.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 27, 2019, 04:29:12 PM
Thanks for the physics.

Another meta-info from me:

Kolmogorova, 28.Jan 1959

Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit.



What, Woot, Which device? Who found that device. What is it.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 27, 2019, 11:39:29 PM
Thanks for the physics.

Another meta-info from me:

Kolmogorova, 28.Jan 1959

Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit.



What, Woot, Which device? Who found that device. What is it.

Is this device reported in the inspection of things?

Is there any more information on it? 

Was this test made at the abandoned mining town?

It is an interesting line of investigation

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 28, 2019, 08:05:33 AM
In the tent the search team found, quote:

"8. tins with wires etc." -> etc. This «etc.» indicates that the search team didn't have the slightest idea what these tins could be used for.

These could be passive radio receivers.The group had three students of radio engineering (Kolomogorova, Dyatlov, Doroschenko).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detektorempf%C3%A4nger#/media/File:Kristallradio_(2).JPG (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detektorempf%C3%A4nger#/media/File:Kristallradio_(2).JPG)

I guess this is the object Kolmogorova referred to as Kolevatov's «device».

Did they try to receive a radio signal. And was that the reason they pitched the tent on the slope of the mountain and not in the valley? Reception of radio signals is better on a mountain...

Edit: You need quartz and pyrit for these devices.... That's what they were looking for in the abandoned mine.

What kind of message would they receive?

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 28, 2019, 08:43:29 AM
In the tent the search team found, quote:

"8. tins with wires etc." -> etc. This «etc.» indicates that the search team didn't have the slightest idea what these tins could be used for.

These could be passive radio receivers.The group had three students of radio engineering (Kolomogorova, Dyatlov, Doroschenko).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detektorempf%C3%A4nger#/media/File:Kristallradio_(2).JPG (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detektorempf%C3%A4nger#/media/File:Kristallradio_(2).JPG)

I guess this is the object Kolmogorova referred to as Kolevatov's «device».

Did they try to receive a radio signal. And was that the reason they pitched the tent on the slope of the mountain and not in the valley? Reception of radio signals is better on a mountain...

Edit: You need quartz and pyrit for these devices.... That's what they were looking for in the abandoned mine.

What kind of message would they receive?

regards

Dominov

They obviously weren’t standard radio transmitters or receivers if they were not easily identified?  Possibly some university prototype instrument?

It’s interesting.  Could be something to do with communication. Could be an experiment in effects of EMP?  Could be something to do with detecting minerals?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 28, 2019, 09:46:06 AM
Another scenario:

These were indeed radio receivers. After having arrived on the mountain they received the location and the time of the test bomb. They realized that they were way too close.  They? I think some knew what was going to happen. They told the others. Some would not be pleased, or even angry. But they had to leave this place immediately. They had to get into safe distance from the bomb or rocket that would very soon explode behind the Dead Mountain. 1.5 Km is a safe distance considering the fact that the mountain shields a lot of the bombs devastating effects. The cedar was the ideal location to observe the incident behind the mountain. What happened after the bomb had exploded remains a subject of speculation and our discussion. The group could have started a fight, some could have fallen from the tree. Some could have been contaminated with radiation from the fallout.

The low yield nuke becomes more and more likely.

BTW. This was a bomb test far away from preying eyes. The Sowjetunion and the USA signed a nuclear moratorium in 1958. Tests were forbidden. The USA invented the neutron bomb in 1957. This was a real game changer. The Sowjetunion was in a hurry to catch up with  their enemy.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: gypsy on January 28, 2019, 11:33:37 AM
Reading the theory that the group (or some members) were in possession of a radio transmitter/receiver, I think it would be interesting to think whether they actually went to the area with a certain task or just to test their presumable home-made equipment and overheard something they were not supposed to hear (supposedly military communication about the bomb or other military equipment test in the area) or their broadcast was intercepted by the military/secret services. If there was indeed some kind of covert operation or test in progress that night, there would most certainly be somebody to observe. The military would definitely be able to approach any place without leaving significant markings - using wide skis, helicopters etc. The testing of mititary equipment or explosives would be secret enough that the local authorities would not know about it and the personnel from Moscow could have been sent to oversee the investigation and make sure it is closed as soon as possible.

Above mentioned would explain:

1. pitching a tent on the slope for better reception of a signal (as mentioned before in this thread)
2. abandoning the place of camping to avoid exposure by the military and not returning anytime soon
3. climbing the tree to make sure it is safe to return (and fall)
4. no foreign traces on the ground
5. possible (this is just a speculation) conflict among the group when hypothermia kicked in - disagreement whether to stay in the woods safely or get back to get exposed, set or not to set up a fire etc...

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 28, 2019, 11:41:34 AM
Another scenario:

These were indeed radio receivers. After having arrived on the mountain they received the location and the time of the test bomb. They realized that they were way too close.  They? I think some knew what was going to happen. They told the others. Some would not be pleased, or even angry. But they had to leave this place immediately. They had to get into safe distance from the bomb or rocket that would very soon explode behind the Dead Mountain. 1.5 Km is a safe distance considering the fact that the mountain shields a lot of the bombs devastating effects. The cedar was the ideal location to observe the incident behind the mountain. What happened after the bomb had exploded remains a subject of speculation and our discussion. The group could have started a fight, some could have fallen from the tree. Some could have been contaminated with radiation from the fallout.

The low yield nuke becomes more and more likely.

BTW. This was a bomb test far away from preying eyes. The Sowjetunion and the USA signed a nuclear moratorium in 1958. Tests were forbidden. The USA invented the neutron bomb in 1957. This was a real game changer. The Sowjetunion was in a hurry to catch up with  their enemy.


An highly unlikely scenario.  The Soviet Union had strict guidelines regarding the Testing of Nuclear Weapons etc.  They had OBSERVERS in all the right places. They didnt just fire off missiles with nukes attached, and they had very specific areas where these Tests took place and the area where the Dyatlov Group were was not one of those areas. And there is ABSOULUTELY no evidence whatsoever that suggests any Nuclear Weapons exploded in the area.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 28, 2019, 01:52:57 PM
@Gipsy
Quote
If there was indeed some kind of covert operation or test in progress that night, there would most certainly be somebody to observe.

Some of the group members were the observers. No obvious military involved. The group was the covert op, or at least some of them.

@Sarapuk
Quote
An highly unlikely scenario.
On the contrary. Tests were forbidden because of the nuke moratorium. They couldn't test bombs where the USA and the Western World would suspect them to break the treaty.

Quote
And there is ABSOULUTELY no evidence whatsoever that suggests any Nuclear Weapons exploded in the area.

Oh there is. Go download Google Earth. In the valley behind the Dead Mountain (South West) you'll find some very big rocks which don't belong there. The valley is perfectly eroded. These rocks are very different from the weather-worn rocks on the ridges of the Dead mountain. They just don't belong there unless «a compelling force» would have moved them or created them there.

Just have a look. And yes, we don't have to discuss the meaning of the word «secret», do we?

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 28, 2019, 02:36:25 PM
Dominov - Your train of thought is starting to look pretty awesome IMO.  grin1

It would explain why they deviated off course and set up camp there.  I also suspect some of them mighty have known and had been observers.  Semyon's last minute appearance on the team?  The radio transmitter ( do you have confirmation that it was a radio)?

I Have not checked minimum safe distance for 1 to 3 KT device.  I know they are deadly up to 1.2 km from radiation pulse, but the summit would have provided ideal shielding as you have said.  So maybe 1.5 km is enough. 

What I think they may not have anticipated is that it was so cold, that the mushroom cloud would cool so rapidly that it could precipitate a fine ground hugging toxic fog of nitrogen dioxide.  In other words a toxic fog of fallout.

When this hit them they had no choice but to try and escape it.  The panic would be amplified by the fact that they knew it was radioactive fallout as well as being toxic and resulting in acute exposure to NO2.

I say the above because they didn't have time to put on their shoes.  Whatever went wrong they didn't expect it. The Cedar was a place to climb out of the ground hugging toxic gas cloud.  Some of these people did not die of hypothermia and I'm not just talking about those with chest and head injuries.

If the group were there to observe then something went wrong.

Good points about the timing and monatorium.  This type of device being developed in US must have been high on the agenda in other countries.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 28, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
Dominos what research do you have on the south west side of the mountain?  Am interested.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 28, 2019, 09:05:29 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious. 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 28, 2019, 11:45:56 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 29, 2019, 03:38:27 AM
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.


Still unexplained:

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2019, 04:27:48 AM
What’s the issue with the shoes?  Wasn’t aware that shoes were unaccounted for?

The socks in combination with the gloves in pockets and unbuttoned or unzipped jackets doesn’t give impression the cold was their major hazard.

I think LC has already presented a convincing explanation for the cuts in the tent in a different thread in terms of poor handling of tent during its recovery.

The eyes- could simply be small animals scavengers like birds taking them before bodies covered by snow.

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 29, 2019, 04:42:58 AM
What’s the issue with the shoes?  Wasn’t aware that shoes were unaccounted for?

The socks in combination with the gloves in pockets and unbuttoned or unzipped jackets doesn’t give impression the cold was their major hazard.

[....]

I mean: missing shoes on their feet....

Crows are a candidates which are known for picking out eyes, sheep eyes, or the eyes of dead people. But do they live in the Ural?

Btw. the position of the bodies in the ravine does not tell us much about what happened. Water and melting snow slowly moved and rolled them away from the location of their death.

As you may have noticed I start taking the NO2-presence seriously. It makes sense.

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2019, 08:45:36 AM
I think that Semyon and Thino were outside tent with shoes etc. I think some of the others were also outside but did not have shoes on. Then with little warning the cloud of NO2 hits them and they have no time to get any other clothing.

There could be other scavengers too. Rats etc.

I think the only reason they built a den in the ravine was because Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo were already injured and could not attempt to walk back to the tent. 

Their injuries are consistent with falling 5 metres onto the ground.  The tree is the most likely place.  Why did they all fall. It wasn’t because they were clumsy or weak. It was because they were suffering from hypoxia which can cause you to black out.

That’s what I currently think happened.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Dominov on January 29, 2019, 09:24:59 AM
Ok. So they walked down the slope in a clould of stinking and poisonous NO2. How long did it take them to reach the cedar? My guess is this descent would take about 45 minutes walking in an uneventful and orderly fashion. They would have been exposed to NO2 for almost an hour. Wouldn't that have killed them all much earlier?

regards

Dominov
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2019, 09:53:48 AM
Ok. So they walked down the slope in a clould of stinking and poisonous NO2. How long did it take them to reach the cedar? My guess is this descent would take about 45 minutes walking in an uneventful and orderly fashion. They would have been exposed to NO2 for almost an hour. Wouldn't that have killed them all much earlier?

regards

Dominov

It would have been very unpleasant and may have caused difficulty breathing, but toxic effect and Odema can be delayed by 24 hours.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2019, 11:21:38 AM
Below is an extract from Wikipedia on nitrogen dioxide toxicity:

exposure is only likely to arise in occupational settings. Direct exposure to the skin can cause irritations and burns. Only very high concentrations of the gaseous form cause immediate distress: 10–20 ppm can cause mild irritation of the nose and throat, 25–50 ppm can cause edema leading to bronchitis or pneumonia, and levels above 100 ppm can cause death due to asphyxiation from fluid in the lungs. There are often no symptoms at the time of exposure other than transient cough, fatigue or nausea, but over hours inflammation in the lungs causes edema.[24][25]
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 29, 2019, 03:26:44 PM
Not sure how substantiated this is, but was listening to a radio interview with Keith McCloskey on spaced out radio and he said that the night of the DPI two long range nuclear bombers flew over the area on some kind of test run.

He said the theory was that they may have been testing parachute mines.

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 01:26:48 PM
@Gipsy
Quote
If there was indeed some kind of covert operation or test in progress that night, there would most certainly be somebody to observe.

Some of the group members were the observers. No obvious military involved. The group was the covert op, or at least some of them.

@Sarapuk
Quote
An highly unlikely scenario.
On the contrary. Tests were forbidden because of the nuke moratorium. They couldn't test bombs where the USA and the Western World would suspect them to break the treaty.

Quote
And there is ABSOULUTELY no evidence whatsoever that suggests any Nuclear Weapons exploded in the area.

Oh there is. Go download Google Earth. In the valley behind the Dead Mountain (South West) you'll find some very big rocks which don't belong there. The valley is perfectly eroded. These rocks are very different from the weather-worn rocks on the ridges of the Dead mountain. They just don't belong there unless «a compelling force» would have moved them or created them there.

Just have a look. And yes, we don't have to discuss the meaning of the word «secret», do we?

regards

Dominov


It doesnt make sense for the USSR Military to use a group of students on an important observation mission.  The Nuclear Tests were temporarily suspended, there were no Tests for 1959.  Those Rocks you mention are natural geographic / geological features.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 01:33:13 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.


ABSOLUTELY.  Even small nukes would have a presence. The Tribal people of that area did not report any such explosions, etc.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 01:36:15 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 01:41:01 PM
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 01:43:53 PM
Not sure how substantiated this is, but was listening to a radio interview with Keith McCloskey on spaced out radio and he said that the night of the DPI two long range nuclear bombers flew over the area on some kind of test run.

He said the theory was that they may have been testing parachute mines.


Is there any EVIDENCE to back this claim up  !  ? 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 30, 2019, 03:02:15 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.

It was either a tactical nuke or it wasn't a nuke at all.  Why? Because a standard fission device would have left more significant evidence in terms of flattened burned trees etc.  A fusion device would be a whole new ball game.  They would never have found the group.  They maybe would find their shadows burned into the rocks where they had once stood.

A tactical nuke would only be several kilotonnes.  This is still a big explosion but more like big conventional weapon.  If it was more than this it wouldn't be tactical.

Dominov is correct when he talks about the development of these tactical devices (late 1950s to early 1960s). he is also right to suspect the covert op.  Nobody seems to be able to explain why they deviated from route.  Nothing in diaries?  What was the device Kolevatov had? It might seem unimportant but until we know what it was it isn't.

In terms of what it would look like then it would,look as I have described.  It would be visible but only if you were outside and looking in the right direction at the right time for the 30 seconds or so that it was visible in the sky.  AND there are reports from people who did see something, but who probably didn't understand what they were looking at.  I suspect others saw it too but never made such reports, so there will be no documented evidence of this.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 30, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Not sure how substantiated this is, but was listening to a radio interview with Keith McCloskey on spaced out radio and he said that the night of the DPI two long range nuclear bombers flew over the area on some kind of test run.

He said the theory was that they may have been testing parachute mines.


Is there any EVIDENCE to back this claim up  !  ?

No idea if there is evidence.  I was simply relaying what he McCloskey had said in his radio interview.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 30, 2019, 03:35:56 PM
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.

To be accurate, it is a hypothesis rather than a theory.  There are no theories for the DPI.

If you read the original post it presents a narrative that attempts to explain the events of the night.  I think it presents a possible explanation for many things, including:

Why Semyon had his camera, and why many of the group were outside the tent watching or observing this test.

Why they left the camp site.without their shoes - immediate distress caused by high concentration of NO2

Why they chose the Cedar tree - tall enough to climb above a layer of toxic smog.

How they got many of their injuries - climbing tree (small scratches and abrasions), falling out of the tree - losing consciousness due to the delayed effects of NO2 poisoning which slowly causes inflammation of the lungs, Odema, methemoglobin and hypoxia.  Later posts examine the chest injuries in detail including breaking forces, which are entirely consistent with falling out of a tree onto the ground.

Why they built the den - because the people injured falling out of the tree meant they could not attempt to go back to the tent.

Ultimately it explains the strange deaths of those with non life threatening injuries and who obviously didn't die of hypothermia.  - NO2 poisoning.

Dominovprovides the background and context for the whole thing and may explain what they were doing there.  Dominovs observations of the clothes clearly shows that hypothermia was not their biggest worry.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 05:05:39 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.

It was either a tactical nuke or it wasn't a nuke at all.  Why? Because a standard fission device would have left more significant evidence in terms of flattened burned trees etc.  A fusion device would be a whole new ball game.  They would never have found the group.  They maybe would find their shadows burned into the rocks where they had once stood.

A tactical nuke would only be several kilotonnes.  This is still a big explosion but more like big conventional weapon.  If it was more than this it wouldn't be tactical.

Dominov is correct when he talks about the development of these tactical devices (late 1950s to early 1960s). he is also right to suspect the covert op.  Nobody seems to be able to explain why they deviated from route.  Nothing in diaries?  What was the device Kolevatov had? It might seem unimportant but until we know what it was it isn't.

In terms of what it would look like then it would,look as I have described.  It would be visible but only if you were outside and looking in the right direction at the right time for the 30 seconds or so that it was visible in the sky.  AND there are reports from people who did see something, but who probably didn't understand what they were looking at.  I suspect others saw it too but never made such reports, so there will be no documented evidence of this.


If its more like a big conventional weapon then why bother with a nuke  ! ?  The deviation is slight but noticeable and may be due to weather or something that scared them in or near to the forest.  Well we really do need as much evidence as possible and for this particular theory there doesnt seem to be any at all  !  ?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 05:09:54 PM
Not sure how substantiated this is, but was listening to a radio interview with Keith McCloskey on spaced out radio and he said that the night of the DPI two long range nuclear bombers flew over the area on some kind of test run.

He said the theory was that they may have been testing parachute mines.


Is there any EVIDENCE to back this claim up  !  ?

No idea if there is evidence.  I was simply relaying what he McCloskey had said in his radio interview.


Fair enough. Its worth investigating, but I doubt there is any evidence at all and McCloskey is just surmising.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 30, 2019, 05:19:42 PM
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.

To be accurate, it is a hypothesis rather than a theory.  There are no theories for the DPI.

If you read the original post it presents a narrative that attempts to explain the events of the night.  I think it presents a possible explanation for many things, including:

Why Semyon had his camera, and why many of the group were outside the tent watching or observing this test.

Why they left the camp site.without their shoes - immediate distress caused by high concentration of NO2

Why they chose the Cedar tree - tall enough to climb above a layer of toxic smog.

How they got many of their injuries - climbing tree (small scratches and abrasions), falling out of the tree - losing consciousness due to the delayed effects of NO2 poisoning which slowly causes inflammation of the lungs, Odema, methemoglobin and hypoxia.  Later posts examine the chest injuries in detail including breaking forces, which are entirely consistent with falling out of a tree onto the ground.

Why they built the den - because the people injured falling out of the tree meant they could not attempt to go back to the tent.

Ultimately it explains the strange deaths of those with non life threatening injuries and who obviously didn't die of hypothermia.  - NO2 poisoning.

Dominovprovides the background and context for the whole thing and may explain what they were doing there.  Dominovs observations of the clothes clearly shows that hypothermia was not their biggest worry.

Well I think we will find that THEORY and HYPOTHESIS and SPECULATION are all the same terms. Any way whatever you want to call it. I say it still lacks strength. We dont even know if the so called DEN was in fact a DEN. We dont know the exact sequence of events at the TENT and if any of the Group were already outside the TENT when the EVENT happened.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 30, 2019, 11:48:55 PM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.

It was either a tactical nuke or it wasn't a nuke at all.  Why? Because a standard fission device would have left more significant evidence in terms of flattened burned trees etc.  A fusion device would be a whole new ball game.  They would never have found the group.  They maybe would find their shadows burned into the rocks where they had once stood.

A tactical nuke would only be several kilotonnes.  This is still a big explosion but more like big conventional weapon.  If it was more than this it wouldn't be tactical.

Dominov is correct when he talks about the development of these tactical devices (late 1950s to early 1960s). he is also right to suspect the covert op.  Nobody seems to be able to explain why they deviated from route.  Nothing in diaries?  What was the device Kolevatov had? It might seem unimportant but until we know what it was it isn't.

In terms of what it would look like then it would,look as I have described.  It would be visible but only if you were outside and looking in the right direction at the right time for the 30 seconds or so that it was visible in the sky.  AND there are reports from people who did see something, but who probably didn't understand what they were looking at.  I suspect others saw it too but never made such reports, so there will be no documented evidence of this.


If its more like a big conventional weapon then why bother with a nuke  ! ?  The deviation is slight but noticeable and may be due to weather or something that scared them in or near to the forest.  Well we really do need as much evidence as possible and for this particular theory there doesnt seem to be any at all  !  ?

I think given the times there was a technological race on.  The tactical device stopped armies but did not destroy infrastructure. You would not want to fall behind in the game.

Agree there are other reasons and possibilities and I am going to explore these also.

There’s plenty of evidence to support the hypothesis. But Given the possible cover up I doubt it is going to just knock on the door and say here I am. Go have to look hard.

Can you explain Doroschenko ‘s oedema or Rustem’s ice bed? Can you explain Rustem one boot? Can you explain the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets unzipped? Why did they build a den?  Why did authorities ask for radiation checks?

This hypothesis provides credible answers.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 30, 2019, 11:56:10 PM
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.

To be accurate, it is a hypothesis rather than a theory.  There are no theories for the DPI.

If you read the original post it presents a narrative that attempts to explain the events of the night.  I think it presents a possible explanation for many things, including:

Why Semyon had his camera, and why many of the group were outside the tent watching or observing this test.

Why they left the camp site.without their shoes - immediate distress caused by high concentration of NO2

Why they chose the Cedar tree - tall enough to climb above a layer of toxic smog.

How they got many of their injuries - climbing tree (small scratches and abrasions), falling out of the tree - losing consciousness due to the delayed effects of NO2 poisoning which slowly causes inflammation of the lungs, Odema, methemoglobin and hypoxia.  Later posts examine the chest injuries in detail including breaking forces, which are entirely consistent with falling out of a tree onto the ground.

Why they built the den - because the people injured falling out of the tree meant they could not attempt to go back to the tent.

Ultimately it explains the strange deaths of those with non life threatening injuries and who obviously didn't die of hypothermia.  - NO2 poisoning.

Dominovprovides the background and context for the whole thing and may explain what they were doing there.  Dominovs observations of the clothes clearly shows that hypothermia was not their biggest worry.

Well I think we will find that THEORY and HYPOTHESIS and SPECULATION are all the same terms. Any way whatever you want to call it. I say it still lacks strength. We dont even know if the so called DEN was in fact a DEN. We dont know the exact sequence of events at the TENT and if any of the Group were already outside the TENT when the EVENT happened.

There are things in this mystery that we will never know for sure.  Some the details like where exactly was each person when it all started . All that can be done is to try and make the most credible argument using the information available.  However there are lots of important facts. It’s kind of like finding a jigsaw puzzle with lots of pieces missing. All you can do is put together the ones you do have and try to sense of the missing pieces.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 31, 2019, 12:03:50 AM
Not sure how substantiated this is, but was listening to a radio interview with Keith McCloskey on spaced out radio and he said that the night of the DPI two long range nuclear bombers flew over the area on some kind of test run.

He said the theory was that they may have been testing parachute mines.


Is there any EVIDENCE to back this claim up  !  ?

No idea if there is evidence.  I was simply relaying what he McCloskey had said in his radio interview.


Fair enough. Its worth investigating, but I doubt there is any evidence at all and McCloskey is just surmising.

I will only ever put forward evidence with the level of credence it deserves.  That is why in my narrative at the start of this thread I carefully separate actual fact from argument.  I am only interested in knowing what really happened to those people. Don’t care if my theory turns out to be wrong.

if someone else puts forward a compelling argument for a different hypothesis that makes more sense then I will be on board with it.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 31, 2019, 10:50:30 AM
I am under the impression that a tactical nuke (low yield) at any altitude would have been heard and seen by hundreds of people and very obvious.

Yes it would be visible for some distance. Sound would depend on wind speed and direction but would be weakly audible from distance.

However it would not last long.  Bright flash would last several seconds.  Fire ball 500 metres would last 10 to 20 seconds at a guess .

These devices are not like the massively devastating images usually portrayed on our tv screens.  They are tactical. Designed to be used to stop advancing armies by Capet bombing them.  Designed to take people out via radiation blast rather than infrastructure.

500 metre fire ball would be visible from 70km as an orange orb slightly smaller than the moon would look and last probably a maximum of 30 seconds at a rough guess.


How do you know what the particular effects would be when you dont even know the yield of any such weapon alleged to have been involved  !  ?  This is SPECULATION PILED UPON SPECULATION.

It was either a tactical nuke or it wasn't a nuke at all.  Why? Because a standard fission device would have left more significant evidence in terms of flattened burned trees etc.  A fusion device would be a whole new ball game.  They would never have found the group.  They maybe would find their shadows burned into the rocks where they had once stood.

A tactical nuke would only be several kilotonnes.  This is still a big explosion but more like big conventional weapon.  If it was more than this it wouldn't be tactical.

Dominov is correct when he talks about the development of these tactical devices (late 1950s to early 1960s). he is also right to suspect the covert op.  Nobody seems to be able to explain why they deviated from route.  Nothing in diaries?  What was the device Kolevatov had? It might seem unimportant but until we know what it was it isn't.

In terms of what it would look like then it would,look as I have described.  It would be visible but only if you were outside and looking in the right direction at the right time for the 30 seconds or so that it was visible in the sky.  AND there are reports from people who did see something, but who probably didn't understand what they were looking at.  I suspect others saw it too but never made such reports, so there will be no documented evidence of this.


If its more like a big conventional weapon then why bother with a nuke  ! ?  The deviation is slight but noticeable and may be due to weather or something that scared them in or near to the forest.  Well we really do need as much evidence as possible and for this particular theory there doesnt seem to be any at all  !  ?

I think given the times there was a technological race on.  The tactical device stopped armies but did not destroy infrastructure. You would not want to fall behind in the game.

Agree there are other reasons and possibilities and I am going to explore these also.

There’s plenty of evidence to support the hypothesis. But Given the possible cover up I doubt it is going to just knock on the door and say here I am. Go have to look hard.

Can you explain Doroschenko ‘s oedema or Rustem’s ice bed? Can you explain Rustem one boot? Can you explain the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets unzipped? Why did they build a den?  Why did authorities ask for radiation checks?

This hypothesis provides credible answers.


Well a nuke doesnt necessarily explain Doroschenko's oedema or Rustem's ice bed  !  Or Rustem's one boot ! Or the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets or whathaveyou ! Any thing could explain them.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 31, 2019, 10:52:53 AM
The low yield nuke theory in combination with a covert op (Some group members) can explain a lot of things.

  • The report of lights in the sky, e.g. the reflections of a plane heading toward the Dead Mountain or the explosion itself causing strange strobostobic lights and orbs through a snow storm and causing strange reflections on the clouds hovering over the Dead Mountain
  • The deviation from the planned route and the location of the tent (receive radio signals)
  • The existence of so many cameras. They were expensive and not available for the common ppl.
  • Tins with wires etc.-> Kolevatov's device in combination with pyrit from the abandoned mine.
  • The detection of nuclear contamination on some of the clothes (maybe the bomb was not very perfect. More like a dirty neutron bomb)
  • NO2 as a byproduct of nuclear explosions causing edemas (Doroschenko)
  • Possible conflicts or fights among the group members
  • Even the possibility of small snow slabs (No super avalances)
  • The fact that some of the members didn't seem to behave like freezing ppl. The air around the explosion could have been heated for some time.
  • The fact that 4 group members didn't try to get back to the tent because of the radiation. They were waiting. They were better dressed and had shoes but didn't try to get back to the tent.
  • The interpretation that they built a lookout post on the cedar
  • The possibility of the presence of Mansi People. They would have wanted to know what happened... Who would they blame?
  • The absence of at least two diaries (Kolevatov's and Thibeaux's). There are suggestions that the military was on site before the search party.
  • The picture «Three heads»
  • Restricted access to the area for THREE years although the Dyatlov group died of hypothermia and a compelling force...

Still unexplained:

  • Missing shoes
  • The sock business
  • Cuts in the tent
  • Missing eyeballs


Your theory, if that is what it can be called, doesnt really explain much at all. All you are offering is POSSIBLE THIS AND POSSIBLE THAT  ! ? And the usual ASSUMPTIONS.

To be accurate, it is a hypothesis rather than a theory.  There are no theories for the DPI.

If you read the original post it presents a narrative that attempts to explain the events of the night.  I think it presents a possible explanation for many things, including:

Why Semyon had his camera, and why many of the group were outside the tent watching or observing this test.

Why they left the camp site.without their shoes - immediate distress caused by high concentration of NO2

Why they chose the Cedar tree - tall enough to climb above a layer of toxic smog.

How they got many of their injuries - climbing tree (small scratches and abrasions), falling out of the tree - losing consciousness due to the delayed effects of NO2 poisoning which slowly causes inflammation of the lungs, Odema, methemoglobin and hypoxia.  Later posts examine the chest injuries in detail including breaking forces, which are entirely consistent with falling out of a tree onto the ground.

Why they built the den - because the people injured falling out of the tree meant they could not attempt to go back to the tent.

Ultimately it explains the strange deaths of those with non life threatening injuries and who obviously didn't die of hypothermia.  - NO2 poisoning.

Dominovprovides the background and context for the whole thing and may explain what they were doing there.  Dominovs observations of the clothes clearly shows that hypothermia was not their biggest worry.

Well I think we will find that THEORY and HYPOTHESIS and SPECULATION are all the same terms. Any way whatever you want to call it. I say it still lacks strength. We dont even know if the so called DEN was in fact a DEN. We dont know the exact sequence of events at the TENT and if any of the Group were already outside the TENT when the EVENT happened.

There are things in this mystery that we will never know for sure.  Some the details like where exactly was each person when it all started . All that can be done is to try and make the most credible argument using the information available.  However there are lots of important facts. It’s kind of like finding a jigsaw puzzle with lots of pieces missing. All you can do is put together the ones you do have and try to sense of the missing pieces.

Problem is there are lots of possible explanations and its virtually impossible to say given the lack of evidence which explanation is the strongest.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on January 31, 2019, 10:55:17 AM
Not sure how substantiated this is, but was listening to a radio interview with Keith McCloskey on spaced out radio and he said that the night of the DPI two long range nuclear bombers flew over the area on some kind of test run.

He said the theory was that they may have been testing parachute mines.


Is there any EVIDENCE to back this claim up  !  ?

No idea if there is evidence.  I was simply relaying what he McCloskey had said in his radio interview.


Fair enough. Its worth investigating, but I doubt there is any evidence at all and McCloskey is just surmising.

I will only ever put forward evidence with the level of credence it deserves.  That is why in my narrative at the start of this thread I carefully separate actual fact from argument.  I am only interested in knowing what really happened to those people. Don’t care if my theory turns out to be wrong.

if someone else puts forward a compelling argument for a different hypothesis that makes more sense then I will be on board with it.

But is McCloskey putting forward a compelling argument  !  ?  He has made a statement but does he have any evidence to back it up.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 31, 2019, 03:06:24 PM
Well a nuke doesnt necessarily explain Doroschenko's oedema or Rustem's ice bed  !  Or Rustem's one boot ! Or the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets or whathaveyou ! Any thing could explain them.
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It does explain it in terms of the cloud of toxic NO2 as per the original narrative.

The clothing provides evidence that they were not as worried about the cold as the investigation makes out.  Yes the cold was dangerous, but they had other problems like not being able to breath effectively.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 31, 2019, 03:30:22 PM
Problem is there are lots of possible explanations and its virtually impossible to say given the lack of evidence which explanation is the strongest.
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Yes, there are lots of possible explanations, but there is only one true explanation.  There are also separate elements to the mystery, and for each element you pin down, you eliminate many of the possible explanations, or at least demonstrate that they are extremely unlikely.

Example - Lyuda's injuries.  Single large and very fast impact, with no obvious secondary large impacts.  She fell and hit the ground front on.  Crushed ribs, crushed nose, massive bruise on front of femur  and strange movement of  hyoid bone. 

If it was a shock wave and she was standing up then it could have easily thrown her up to 50 metres horizontally in which case you would expect additional significant injuries.  Same for Semyon and Thibo.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on January 31, 2019, 03:34:59 PM
But is McCloskey putting forward a compelling argument  !  ?  He has made a statement but does he have any evidence to back it up.
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I don't know much about McCloskey's hypothesis as I haven't read his book.  I have only listened to a couple of radio interviews and he never actually explained his own hypothesis. He just talked about the DPI in general terms and he discussed lots of the possible explanations.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on February 02, 2019, 04:56:54 PM
Well a nuke doesnt necessarily explain Doroschenko's oedema or Rustem's ice bed  !  Or Rustem's one boot ! Or the proponderance of socks, gloves in pockets, ski jackets or whathaveyou ! Any thing could explain them.
Report to moderator     Logged
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It does explain it in terms of the cloud of toxic NO2 as per the original narrative.

The clothing provides evidence that they were not as worried about the cold as the investigation makes out.  Yes the cold was dangerous, but they had other problems like not being able to breath effectively.

Well its true that most of them left the tent ill equipped to survive the serious freezing weather conditions.  But some of them were later found well equipped.  Suggests to me that they all left the Tent in a hurry with all their mental faculties intact and then about a mile from the Tent made a last ditch effort to survive.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on February 02, 2019, 05:01:14 PM
Problem is there are lots of possible explanations and its virtually impossible to say given the lack of evidence which explanation is the strongest.
Report to moderator     Logged
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Yes, there are lots of possible explanations, but there is only one true explanation.  There are also separate elements to the mystery, and for each element you pin down, you eliminate many of the possible explanations, or at least demonstrate that they are extremely unlikely.

Example - Lyuda's injuries.  Single large and very fast impact, with no obvious secondary large impacts.  She fell and hit the ground front on.  Crushed ribs, crushed nose, massive bruise on front of femur  and strange movement of  hyoid bone. 

If it was a shock wave and she was standing up then it could have easily thrown her up to 50 metres horizontally in which case you would expect additional significant injuries.  Same for Semyon and Thibo.

Its still impossible to say without further evidence.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on February 02, 2019, 05:09:22 PM
But is McCloskey putting forward a compelling argument  !  ?  He has made a statement but does he have any evidence to back it up.
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I don't know much about McCloskey's hypothesis as I haven't read his book.  I have only listened to a couple of radio interviews and he never actually explained his own hypothesis. He just talked about the DPI in general terms and he discussed lots of the possible explanations.

Well it seems to me that he was just surmising or making it up to fit his own particular theory.  I believe that the Authorities have decided to reopen the Dyatlov Case to amongst other things clarify many points in the Mystery, and therefore eliminate a lot of the wild speculation. We shall see soon.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on February 03, 2019, 01:38:01 AM
But is McCloskey putting forward a compelling argument  !  ?  He has made a statement but does he have any evidence to back it up.
Report to moderator     Logged
DB


I don't know much about McCloskey's hypothesis as I haven't read his book.  I have only listened to a couple of radio interviews and he never actually explained his own hypothesis. He just talked about the DPI in general terms and he discussed lots of the possible explanations.

Well it seems to me that he was just surmising or making it up to fit his own particular theory.  I believe that the Authorities have decided to reopen the Dyatlov Case to amongst other things clarify many points in the Mystery, and therefore eliminate a lot of the wild speculation. We shall see soon.

Will be interesting to see what they say
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on February 05, 2019, 02:59:38 PM
But is McCloskey putting forward a compelling argument  !  ?  He has made a statement but does he have any evidence to back it up.
Report to moderator     Logged
DB


I don't know much about McCloskey's hypothesis as I haven't read his book.  I have only listened to a couple of radio interviews and he never actually explained his own hypothesis. He just talked about the DPI in general terms and he discussed lots of the possible explanations.

Well it seems to me that he was just surmising or making it up to fit his own particular theory.  I believe that the Authorities have decided to reopen the Dyatlov Case to amongst other things clarify many points in the Mystery, and therefore eliminate a lot of the wild speculation. We shall see soon.

Will be interesting to see what they say

Well they dont appear to have said much so far. The Press Conference was in Russian so that doesnt help.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on February 17, 2019, 12:43:59 PM
A test for the low yield nuke hypothesis, if anyone ever has the opportunity.

Ground core samples on the approach to Kholat Syakle and on Kholat Syakhl should help to conclude on this.

Look for sudden spike in strontium 90 about 60 years ago.

Also, an examination of tree rings of an old tree in the forested area near the cedar tree. 

Look for sudden change in growth rate due to change in acidity and nitrate concentration of the soil, nitrates being a good fertiliser.

Also look for strontium 90 spike in tree ring.

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on February 17, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
A test for the low yield nuke hypothesis, if anyone ever has the opportunity.

Ground core samples on the approach to Kholat Syakle and on Kholat Syakhl should help to conclude on this.

Look for sudden spike in strontium 90 about 60 years ago.

Also, an examination of tree rings of an old tree in the forested area near the cedar tree. 

Look for sudden change in growth rate due to change in acidity and nitrate concentration of the soil, nitrates being a good fertiliser.

Also look for strontium 90 spike in tree ring.

Iam sure that over the last 60 years plenty of people have had the opportunity to test for RADIOACTIVITY. And the new investigation in March should be interesting.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on February 18, 2019, 01:07:15 AM
A test for the low yield nuke hypothesis, if anyone ever has the opportunity.

Ground core samples on the approach to Kholat Syakle and on Kholat Syakhl should help to conclude on this.

Look for sudden spike in strontium 90 about 60 years ago.

Also, an examination of tree rings of an old tree in the forested area near the cedar tree. 

Look for sudden change in growth rate due to change in acidity and nitrate concentration of the soil, nitrates being a good fertiliser.

Also look for strontium 90 spike in tree ring.

Iam sure that over the last 60 years plenty of people have had the opportunity to test for RADIOACTIVITY. And the new investigation in March should be interesting.

Radiochemical analysis for strontium 90 in the tree rings would probably conclude whether there was any nuclear involvement.  So worth doing IMO.  It's probably one key piece of evidence that would still be there today if there was nuclear involvement.  Obviously if there isn't a step change in strontium 90 then could rule it out properly.  They would need to use a reference sample too as there is likely to be some increase in strontium from other nuclear tests around the world so would need to look for acute step change that shows higher local concentrations that can be explained by comparison with reference sample.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on March 12, 2019, 09:37:53 AM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on March 13, 2019, 01:50:26 PM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on March 13, 2019, 04:03:59 PM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on March 14, 2019, 02:39:01 PM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on March 14, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?

After the case was closed, it is possible that the evidence was simply poorly looked after?  60 years is a long time to keep things properly stored and catlogued.  Or it deliberately disappeared?  We will probably never know.

The radiation tests and surveys is something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the DPI.  The results of those tests were positive for the clothing.  If the clothing of all the rav 4 were positive, then it's more than likely that the contamination was more widespread. 

It's possible that the contamination is just a coincidence.  It could be the result of fallout from past tests, or nuclear accidents.  Also given the times they were living in there was probably a fair share of paranoia about nuclear and maybe this is why they brought in the radiation detectors.

Again, the answer will lie in the tree rings.  They used the same technique at Hiroshima and showed that there was a large spike of strontium 90.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on March 15, 2019, 01:10:22 PM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?

After the case was closed, it is possible that the evidence was simply poorly looked after?  60 years is a long time to keep things properly stored and catlogued.  Or it deliberately disappeared?  We will probably never know.

The radiation tests and surveys is something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the DPI.  The results of those tests were positive for the clothing.  If the clothing of all the rav 4 were positive, then it's more than likely that the contamination was more widespread. 

It's possible that the contamination is just a coincidence.  It could be the result of fallout from past tests, or nuclear accidents.  Also given the times they were living in there was probably a fair share of paranoia about nuclear and maybe this is why they brought in the radiation detectors.

Again, the answer will lie in the tree rings.  They used the same technique at Hiroshima and showed that there was a large spike of strontium 90.

Regards

Star man

It seems more likely that the Tent and other Equipment was kept under lock and key. We know that the Authorities closed the Dyatlov Case down and the area very quickly after the last 4 bodies were found. So that must suggest something very important. Could that importance relate to RADIATION CONTAMINATION of the tent and the other Equipment  !  ?  Or maybe they just had to keep under lock and key anything related to the Event, except the bodies that were buried, of course.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on March 15, 2019, 05:18:36 PM
Had another thought about the tent.

The shock wave from a nuclear device is estimated to be about 3psi overpressure at the tent.

This would have placed the total force on the tent at about 3600kgf. Possible enough to cause significant damage and make it unusable.


And as I mentioned elsewhere, we could also have expected plenty of RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES to have been found at the Tent. And apparently non were.

We don't really know if any contamination was found at the tent.

Well I thought you may say that, and of course you are correct. We dont know a lot of things. The missing Tent ! ? I wonder if any tests were carried out on it elsewhere once it was taken away by the Authorities, never to appear again or even get a mention apart from the stuff we have been fed regarding the cuts or rips. And that goes for all the Gear in the Tent as well. What became of it ! ?

After the case was closed, it is possible that the evidence was simply poorly looked after?  60 years is a long time to keep things properly stored and catlogued.  Or it deliberately disappeared?  We will probably never know.

The radiation tests and surveys is something that sticks out like a sore thumb in the DPI.  The results of those tests were positive for the clothing.  If the clothing of all the rav 4 were positive, then it's more than likely that the contamination was more widespread. 

It's possible that the contamination is just a coincidence.  It could be the result of fallout from past tests, or nuclear accidents.  Also given the times they were living in there was probably a fair share of paranoia about nuclear and maybe this is why they brought in the radiation detectors.

Again, the answer will lie in the tree rings.  They used the same technique at Hiroshima and showed that there was a large spike of strontium 90.

Regards

Star man

It seems more likely that the Tent and other Equipment was kept under lock and key. We know that the Authorities closed the Dyatlov Case down and the area very quickly after the last 4 bodies were found. So that must suggest something very important. Could that importance relate to RADIATION CONTAMINATION of the tent and the other Equipment  !  ?  Or maybe they just had to keep under lock and key anything related to the Event, except the bodies that were buried, of course.

From the witness statements on Ivanov and his behaviour at the ravine following their discoveries it seems to me that he was no longer investigating the incident.  Kind of like he already knew what had happened and was only concerned with removing the last pieces of evidence.  But then why did he want the radiation test of the clothes carried out.  Also, I find it hard to believe that the radiological analysis of the clothes was done before the bodies were recovered, so why were the helicopter pilots concerned about zinc coffins?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 10:35:30 AM
Your theory can be proved or disaproved by simple test:

1) Go in Dead Mountine, take dozimeter. After 60 years will be radiation spotted.

2) Make the same test with dead bodies. Also on their bodies should be according your theory contamined.

3) for to be sure, contact the Dyatlavov comunity who carries their founded things and make measurement by dozimeter..

Sorry to say that, but
your theory doesnt make for me for 99,99 periodical % sence..
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on April 10, 2019, 03:33:59 PM
Your theory can be proved or disaproved by simple test:

1) Go in Dead Mountine, take dozimeter. After 60 years will be radiation spotted.

2) Make the same test with dead bodies. Also on their bodies should be according your theory contamined.

3) for to be sure, contact the Dyatlavov comunity who carries their founded things and make measurement by dozimeter..

Sorry to say that, but
your theory doesnt make for me for 99,99 periodical % sence..

The test that it is required to prove or disprove the theory is to take tree ring samples from the area and analyse for strontium 90 spikes and caesium 137 concentration.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:32:28 PM
Your theory can be proved or disaproved by simple test:

1) Go in Dead Mountine, take dozimeter. After 60 years will be radiation spotted.

2) Make the same test with dead bodies. Also on their bodies should be according your theory contamined.

3) for to be sure, contact the Dyatlavov comunity who carries their founded things and make measurement by dozimeter..

Sorry to say that, but


your theory doesnt make for me for 99,99 periodical % sence..

The test that it is required to prove or disprove the theory is to take tree ring samples from the area and analyse for strontium 90 spikes and caesium 137 concentration.

Regards
Star man


?????? ".....analyse for strontium 90 spikes and caesium 137 concentration.
......" what the hell happend to you?
You probably never work with dozimeter. If you take edos and you will go somewhere where is residual Gama ray, they you will find it.

By the way, take dozimeter, turn it on and turn the microvawe machine ´.. You will be surprised (maybe).
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:40:52 PM
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: gypsy on April 11, 2019, 04:37:31 PM
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

Why exactly is the weapon test (gone wrong) theory crazy? It fits the time frame, the behaviour of the people involved including the investigators and we know for sure that bombs and other military equipment was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959. It is a completely logical line of thought along with the murder theory if we have 9 dead bodies found in this condition. Plausible version of events for me. Needs just some verification just like any other theory.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on April 11, 2019, 11:40:57 PM
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

So what is your opinion on the distribution of gamma radiation and the likely background rates some 60 years after the event?  What radioisotopes and what gamma energy levels shoul the doseimeres be set to?
What type of dosimeter would you recommend?

I personally haven’t ruled out any of the other theories.  I have presented a theory that fits the findings of the investigation and in particular the radiation findings which sticks out like a sore thumb.

Which method of analysis do you think would give the better more accurate and informative results:

1. Dosimeter
2 radiochemical analysis

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 04:31:09 AM
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

Why exactly is the weapon test (gone wrong) theory crazy? It fits the time frame, the behaviour of the people involved including the investigators and we know for sure that bombs and other military equipment was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959. It is a completely logical line of thought along with the murder theory if we have 9 dead bodies found in this condition. Plausible version of events for me. Needs just some verification just like any other theory.

Guys,
1) LOW attitude? if military drop a a nuclear cartridge than the aircraft which makes drop, must be in very very high attitude.

2) Each nuclear test is a little bit amazing event. Everybody from military and defence goverment want to see and record the efects. Camera staff, photogrpahers, etc.. Take in mind that about the most of Soviet nuclear tests knew also their enemy (USA and west inteligence services. and contra side.
Nuclear tests is also as perceived as boasting event. North Korea is making for example nuclear tests absolutely media open. They demonstrate the force. They show of force.

Where is the presence of observers and delegations? Do you think some generals will go in snow somewhere in cold mountines to watch an effects of nuclear bomb by their own feet without field kitchen? Where are the vehicles prints? Where are the prints of helicopter which moved delegation? Broken bounds, fired cigaretes. Almost everybody at this time smoked a cigarettes, etc, etc..
Guys, at the accident area was nothing founded.

That somebody "found" "some" aluminium plate in Death mountine is because he also bring it there to be interest.

3) I have never seen a nuclear test in difficult terrain - hills, woods.. This makes in flat terrain surface - Again, and again, and again. Military needs to observe the drop point and drop effects. They need to evaluate it. The drop zone area are cordoned. To make a nuclear test you need place observers to see for decimals of kilometers. = flat terrain.


Soviet military was not stupid. Soviet army was one of the strongest army in the world. Maybe the strongest. They were strong because their "top tip" staff was clever and maturity. (now I dont mean some last company sergeant).

They have to followed the internal directions. It is not like some general will wake up in the morning and during morning parade/call he will say: "OK, comrades, today we will make a drop of nuclear weapon nearby the Death mountine...Go and do it!" No, no no no no..

4) Your point: "was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959".. Of course their were tested! Was time of cold war, 14 years ago from WWII. It is more than sure that some of new soviet weapons were tested somewhere in 1959.
I will not so hard to you if you will say some more silly theory. For example that they were killed (by mistake) because of testing of new artillery howitzer. But all this theorys are wrong and silly.


5) Founded GAMA ray was negligible. They were jsut polluted a bit from history. The quantity they found on clothes was not lethal in any case. By the way, why were not contamined others?

If you will warm your food in microwawe machine and I will take a dozimeter and start measuring, than you will be Gama rayed also. Maybe the  even in a similar amount as like them. They could contamine everywhere (in university during scientific works, etc.) The source of X ray can be everywhere.


According to your investigative analysis:
If you will go to Death Mountine to take measurement, take just classic dosimeter. If you found something in continual surface, after that make radiochemical analysis.
If you will go in Death mountine, take also the iron detector and shovel. Why? It is very very for long time to explain.

But just a little in scople short sentences:
Because If there was according some theorys some violent, than there probably must be weapons. (Guns). To force 9 young strong people without resistant, you need circa 14-20 people without guns. Just by hands or knifes armored.

If there will be 3-5 guys with weapons (gulag prisoners), than it is acceptable. But if there will be a fight without gunshots body wounds, than they probably could shot in the air or in ground to make a treat. So take the iron detector, go and look for shoted munition fragments.
This is maybe logical but It is also wrong. (I think, but it is the most reasonable crime caused by different people in Dyatlavov pass.) But I dont belive to it also. (98% circa).

Radim








Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: gypsy on April 12, 2019, 07:22:40 AM
Why nuclear, why not chemical? Why not seismic weapons, why not biological weapons?
The more I read some stupidity here, the less I wonder.

I don't want to underestimate you, but you're crazy.

Why exactly is the weapon test (gone wrong) theory crazy? It fits the time frame, the behaviour of the people involved including the investigators and we know for sure that bombs and other military equipment was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959. It is a completely logical line of thought along with the murder theory if we have 9 dead bodies found in this condition. Plausible version of events for me. Needs just some verification just like any other theory.

Guys,
1) LOW attitude? if military drop a a nuclear cartridge than the aircraft which makes drop, must be in very very high attitude.

2) Each nuclear test is a little bit amazing event. Everybody from military and defence goverment want to see and record the efects. Camera staff, photogrpahers, etc.. Take in mind that about the most of Soviet nuclear tests knew also their enemy (USA and west inteligence services. and contra side.
Nuclear tests is also as perceived as boasting event. North Korea is making for example nuclear tests absolutely media open. They demonstrate the force. They show of force.

Where is the presence of observers and delegations? Do you think some generals will go in snow somewhere in cold mountines to watch an effects of nuclear bomb by their own feet without field kitchen? Where are the vehicles prints? Where are the prints of helicopter which moved delegation? Broken bounds, fired cigaretes. Almost everybody at this time smoked a cigarettes, etc, etc..
Guys, at the accident area was nothing founded.

That somebody "found" "some" aluminium plate in Death mountine is because he also bring it there to be interest.

3) I have never seen a nuclear test in difficult terrain - hills, woods.. This makes in flat terrain surface - Again, and again, and again. Military needs to observe the drop point and drop effects. They need to evaluate it. The drop zone area are cordoned. To make a nuclear test you need place observers to see for decimals of kilometers. = flat terrain.


Soviet military was not stupid. Soviet army was one of the strongest army in the world. Maybe the strongest. They were strong because their "top tip" staff was clever and maturity. (now I dont mean some last company sergeant).

They have to followed the internal directions. It is not like some general will wake up in the morning and during morning parade/call he will say: "OK, comrades, today we will make a drop of nuclear weapon nearby the Death mountine...Go and do it!" No, no no no no..

4) Your point: "was being tested somewhere and sometime in 1959".. Of course their were tested! Was time of cold war, 14 years ago from WWII. It is more than sure that some of new soviet weapons were tested somewhere in 1959.
I will not so hard to you if you will say some more silly theory. For example that they were killed (by mistake) because of testing of new artillery howitzer. But all this theorys are wrong and silly.


5) Founded GAMA ray was negligible. They were jsut polluted a bit from history. The quantity they found on clothes was not lethal in any case. By the way, why were not contamined others?

If you will warm your food in microwawe machine and I will take a dozimeter and start measuring, than you will be Gama rayed also. Maybe the  even in a similar amount as like them. They could contamine everywhere (in university during scientific works, etc.) The source of X ray can be everywhere.


According to your investigative analysis:
If you will go to Death Mountine to take measurement, take just classic dosimeter. If you found something in continual surface, after that make radiochemical analysis.
If you will go in Death mountine, take also the iron detector and shovel. Why? It is very very for long time to explain.

But just a little in scople short sentences:
Because If there was according some theorys some violent, than there probably must be weapons. (Guns). To force 9 young strong people without resistant, you need circa 14-20 people without guns. Just by hands or knifes armored.

If there will be 3-5 guys with weapons (gulag prisoners), than it is acceptable. But if there will be a fight without gunshots body wounds, than they probably could shot in the air or in ground to make a treat. So take the iron detector, go and look for shoted munition fragments.
This is maybe logical but It is also wrong. (I think, but it is the most reasonable crime caused by different people in Dyatlavov pass.) But I dont belive to it also. (98% circa).

Radim

1. We do not know what kind of device was allegedly used or dropped from. It is just a theory that fits a good part of the evidence. Yes, it is also true that much is left for speculation because the investigators did not do a very good job and wrote a weird conclusion.

2./3. Only successful nuclear tests are amazing and suitable for demonstration . I am pretty sure that a test event gone wrong would be classified just like any other military activity (it is actually written in legal documents) . As written before, it was not necessarily a large device and it did not necessarily explode on the ground.

No observers or delegations - maybe the "device was dropped on the wrong place? Not so long ago, USAF hit Prague instead of Dresden due to navigation error. Pilots are not stupid but errors happen all the time, not to mention during testing of new technologies. Especially night bombing was far from accurate at that time. I wrote some time before that even a threat of being killed from the air is enough to trigger weird behaviour and/or possible conflicts among people.

The alluminium plate - I think it was explained before that is from later time than 1959, unrelated to the DPI.

4. If the Soviet officers said that there was no test and no military incident in the area instead of confiscating the evidence and introducing the exclusion zone for 3 years, there would me less speculation about this version. It is again a legitimate version to consider for investigation. There is a suspicion for sure.

5. hard to conclude, we do not have the exact numbers measured in 1959, only testimonies. And yes, the clothes could have been contaminated before the incident. Again, no data available to compare.

Apart from taking measurement or samples, the line of "new" investigation could start with declassifying of documents related to that time and area. Every single sortie flown or test was recorded and archived. However it may be too late and all evidence destroyed. Is was absolutely legitimate to open criminal investigation, just the standard was very poor as if the investigators and/or prosecutors were not willing to solve the case properly, or were told not to. The theory of military involvement could be absolutely wrong, but we do not know that until this version is either confirmed or ruled out. The different causes of death and nature of injuries suggests human involvement in some way, I personally think that an animal attack or natural phenomenon is not enough (still could have played a part) to explain everything.

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 08:21:09 AM
Sorry to say that, but this is still the same old song.
You are trying to representative the most difficult theory among you accept, that this expedition pass was caused by something very similar - elk(s) attack.

I quit this conversation, because it is very very silly and weak theory.

Radim
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on April 12, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
Sorry to say that, but this is still the same old song.
You are trying to representative the most difficult theory among you accept, that this expedition pass was caused by something very similar - elk(s) attack.

I quit this conversation, because it is very very silly and weak theory.

Radim

You obviously haven’t understood the underpinning posts. 

A radiochemical analysts of the tree rings will prove or disprove this theory.  The same test was accurately demonstrated at Hiroshima.  Your assumptions and own personal view will not prove or disprove anything.

By the way you did not answer any of my questions?

There is a simple equation that is important:

What is reasonable = function(mindset)

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: JimIslander on May 26, 2019, 01:29:33 AM
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/society/138398-dyatlov_pass/
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2019, 08:04:18 AM
Quote
A neutron bomb, officially defined as a type of enhanced radiation weapon, is a low yield thermonuclear weapon designed to maximize lethal neutron radiation in the immediate vicinity of the blast while minimizing the physical power of the blast itself

I would think there would still be a significant explosion.. which there wasnt.  Also, you would think this would create MASS amounts of radiation... which there wasn't. 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on May 27, 2019, 03:22:47 PM
Quote
A neutron bomb, officially defined as a type of enhanced radiation weapon, is a low yield thermonuclear weapon designed to maximize lethal neutron radiation in the immediate vicinity of the blast while minimizing the physical power of the blast itself

I would think there would still be a significant explosion.. which there wasnt.  Also, you would think this would create MASS amounts of radiation... which there wasn't.

The explosion would have been several kilotonnes.  Still capable of destroying normal civil structures within 600m.  But if it was such a device it is likely to have detonated on the other side of the summit of Kholat Syakhl, and the tent would have been shielded from the worst of it.  If the explosion was 1 to 2 km away then the over pressure at the tent would only be several psi - not enough to cause significant damage to people.

Radiation.  Initially radiation levels would have been high.  But would decay quickly and be safe after two weeks.  Well before the search and rescue party arrived.  Also if there was fallout on the snow then it could have been scouted away by the wind in the same way it scoured away the snow around the compacted foot prints.  Also if there was further snow fall that could easily cover up the fallout and making it difficult to detect.

If there was a low yield device and significant fallout then the tree rings would hold the answers.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on May 28, 2019, 03:58:52 PM
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/society/138398-dyatlov_pass/

The construction was found at a distance of ten kilometers from the site  !  ?  Thats a long way from the site. And its highly unlikely that any Nuclear Tests took place any where near the site.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on May 28, 2019, 04:02:11 PM
Quote
A neutron bomb, officially defined as a type of enhanced radiation weapon, is a low yield thermonuclear weapon designed to maximize lethal neutron radiation in the immediate vicinity of the blast while minimizing the physical power of the blast itself

I would think there would still be a significant explosion.. which there wasnt.  Also, you would think this would create MASS amounts of radiation... which there wasn't.

The explosion would have been several kilotonnes.  Still capable of destroying normal civil structures within 600m.  But if it was such a device it is likely to have detonated on the other side of the summit of Kholat Syakhl, and the tent would have been shielded from the worst of it.  If the explosion was 1 to 2 km away then the over pressure at the tent would only be several psi - not enough to cause significant damage to people.

Radiation.  Initially radiation levels would have been high.  But would decay quickly and be safe after two weeks.  Well before the search and rescue party arrived.  Also if there was fallout on the snow then it could have been scouted away by the wind in the same way it scoured away the snow around the compacted foot prints.  Also if there was further snow fall that could easily cover up the fallout and making it difficult to detect.

If there was a low yield device and significant fallout then the tree rings would hold the answers.

Regards

Star man

There was no Nuclear explosion of any kind near the site of the Dyatlov Incident.  Too many things point to the Nuclear explosion theory as being highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 28, 2019, 05:17:24 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident. 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on May 29, 2019, 12:34:27 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on May 30, 2019, 12:19:56 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man

Surely any explosion of that type would have severely damaged the Tent   !  ?
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on May 31, 2019, 02:09:32 AM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man

Surely any explosion of that type would have severely damaged the Tent   !  ?

The tent like the tourists would have been sheltered behind the summit.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on May 31, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man

Surely any explosion of that type would have severely damaged the Tent   !  ?

The tent like the tourists would have been sheltered behind the summit.

Regards

Star man

As an example of why hills may not provide the shelter that many people expect, I provide the following example ; At Mogi, 7 miles from X in Nagasaki, over steep hills over 600 feet high, about 10% of the glass came out. An interesting effect was noted at Mogi; eyewitnesses said that they thought a raid was being made on the place; one big flash was seen, then a loud roar, followed at several second intervals by half a dozen other loud reports, from all directions. These successive reports were obviously reflections from the hills surrounding Mogi.
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on May 31, 2019, 04:09:27 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man

Surely any explosion of that type would have severely damaged the Tent   !  ?

The tent like the tourists would have been sheltered behind the summit.

Regards

Star man

As an example of why hills may not provide the shelter that many people expect, I provide the following example ; At Mogi, 7 miles from X in Nagasaki, over steep hills over 600 feet high, about 10% of the glass came out. An interesting effect was noted at Mogi; eyewitnesses said that they thought a raid was being made on the place; one big flash was seen, then a loud roar, followed at several second intervals by half a dozen other loud reports, from all directions. These successive reports were obviously reflections from the hills surrounding Mogi.

I doubt there would be much in the way of debris on Kholat Syakhl.  Maybe some loose rocks and ice.  The shock waves can be deflected around objects but it would be weakened and unlikely to cause any issues at 3 psi over pressure.  Actually it may be enough to cause a snow slide or snow slab to shift?  Reflections of the shock wave are unlikely to be amplified over the terrain.

Even so a nuclear detonation is far from a simple explanation and therefore has a low probability.  But a test of the  tree rings around the area could provide evidence for or against.

The low yield theory is based on the detection of radiation on all the clothing samples, the decision to close the area for 3 years and what seems to be a significant effort to cover up what happened.  The theory has sufficient scope to explain the events that night.  But, it's not my hot favourite.  I think there is a more simple explanation, but exactly what I don't know.  The infrasound theory is looking to be more credible the more Inthink about it.  Also the snow slide.  Neither explains the radiation, or cover up though, but they may be circumstantial or coincidental? 

I wouldn't rule out the low yield nuke test though unless the tree rings are tested.

Regards

Star man

Star man

Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: sarapuk on June 03, 2019, 01:03:44 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man

Surely any explosion of that type would have severely damaged the Tent   !  ?

The tent like the tourists would have been sheltered behind the summit.

Regards

Star man

As an example of why hills may not provide the shelter that many people expect, I provide the following example ; At Mogi, 7 miles from X in Nagasaki, over steep hills over 600 feet high, about 10% of the glass came out. An interesting effect was noted at Mogi; eyewitnesses said that they thought a raid was being made on the place; one big flash was seen, then a loud roar, followed at several second intervals by half a dozen other loud reports, from all directions. These successive reports were obviously reflections from the hills surrounding Mogi.

I doubt there would be much in the way of debris on Kholat Syakhl.  Maybe some loose rocks and ice.  The shock waves can be deflected around objects but it would be weakened and unlikely to cause any issues at 3 psi over pressure.  Actually it may be enough to cause a snow slide or snow slab to shift?  Reflections of the shock wave are unlikely to be amplified over the terrain.

Even so a nuclear detonation is far from a simple explanation and therefore has a low probability.  But a test of the  tree rings around the area could provide evidence for or against.

The low yield theory is based on the detection of radiation on all the clothing samples, the decision to close the area for 3 years and what seems to be a significant effort to cover up what happened.  The theory has sufficient scope to explain the events that night.  But, it's not my hot favourite.  I think there is a more simple explanation, but exactly what I don't know.  The infrasound theory is looking to be more credible the more Inthink about it.  Also the snow slide.  Neither explains the radiation, or cover up though, but they may be circumstantial or coincidental? 

I wouldn't rule out the low yield nuke test though unless the tree rings are tested.

Regards

Star man

Star man

I wonder if the Authorities have ever tested for such Tree Samples  !  ?  I mean its kind of the thing you would expect them to do as a matter of course in such an Investigation, where Geiger Counters have gone off the scale, according to Ivanov  !  ? 
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Star man on June 04, 2019, 11:48:15 PM
Wouldn't an explosion of that magnitude leave a large footprint on the ground even if detonated at some altitude?   Look at the Tunguska incident.

I think it would depend on whether there were any trees within 600 metres of the explosion on the south west side of the mountain.  If there were no trees then it would just melt a bit is snow and blow it around.  After 3 weeks you wouldn't notice anything obvious as snow could over up the evidence.

Regards

Star man

Surely any explosion of that type would have severely damaged the Tent   !  ?

The tent like the tourists would have been sheltered behind the summit.

Regards

Star man

As an example of why hills may not provide the shelter that many people expect, I provide the following example ; At Mogi, 7 miles from X in Nagasaki, over steep hills over 600 feet high, about 10% of the glass came out. An interesting effect was noted at Mogi; eyewitnesses said that they thought a raid was being made on the place; one big flash was seen, then a loud roar, followed at several second intervals by half a dozen other loud reports, from all directions. These successive reports were obviously reflections from the hills surrounding Mogi.

I doubt there would be much in the way of debris on Kholat Syakhl.  Maybe some loose rocks and ice.  The shock waves can be deflected around objects but it would be weakened and unlikely to cause any issues at 3 psi over pressure.  Actually it may be enough to cause a snow slide or snow slab to shift?  Reflections of the shock wave are unlikely to be amplified over the terrain.

Even so a nuclear detonation is far from a simple explanation and therefore has a low probability.  But a test of the  tree rings around the area could provide evidence for or against.

The low yield theory is based on the detection of radiation on all the clothing samples, the decision to close the area for 3 years and what seems to be a significant effort to cover up what happened.  The theory has sufficient scope to explain the events that night.  But, it's not my hot favourite.  I think there is a more simple explanation, but exactly what I don't know.  The infrasound theory is looking to be more credible the more Inthink about it.  Also the snow slide.  Neither explains the radiation, or cover up though, but they may be circumstantial or coincidental? 

I wouldn't rule out the low yield nuke test though unless the tree rings are tested.

Regards

Star man

Star man

I wonder if the Authorities have ever tested for such Tree Samples  !  ?  I mean its kind of the thing you would expect them to do as a matter of course in such an Investigation, where Geiger Counters have gone off the scale, according to Ivanov  !  ?

The tree rings test was successfully demonstrated at Hiroshima.  Fixed sr 90 and mobile Cs.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 05, 2019, 09:18:35 PM
I think examining tree samples is an outstanding idea.     thumb1