Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Murdered => Topic started by: GeneralFailure on March 15, 2019, 03:37:23 AM

Title: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 15, 2019, 03:37:23 AM
In my country, after the communists came, many people/former WW2 soldiers went in the mountains forming anti-communist resistance groups(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement)).
One event has come to my mind recently related to one resistance group, and the events are somehow similar:

Quote
The death of the undercover tourists
September 2, 1950. Toma Arnăuţoiu, Petre Arnăuţoiu, Constantin Jubleanu and Ion Marinescu meet with tourists Aurel Bârsan, Băş Ghervase, Neniu Dumitru, Venter Teodor and Maria Tiron on Gălăşescu Mountain. Educate to be circumspect with any unknown, the four interogate the to the strangers until they revealed them. Tourists were undercover Security Agents. Aurel Barsan is the only one left alive.
https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti (https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti)

Quote
On September 2, 1950, the terrorists Arnauţoiu Toma, Arnăuţoiu Petre, Marinescu Ion and Jubleanu Constantin attacked with arms a group of people on the tourist route Sîmbăta-Moldoveanu, at the point named Piscul Călăşescului, bestially murdering four people and namely: security platoon Băiş Ghervase, Neniu Petre, worker, PCR member, engineer Venţer Teodor and student Tiron Maria. After they murdered them, the terrorists robbed them of the objects they had on them, stripped them and then run, hiding at one of the hut they had in the mountains. Student Tiron Maria, being only injured, was eventually shot dead with bullets in her heart and her head. "
Secret Service Report - https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html (https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html)


I'm not familiar with the resistance groups in Russia in the '50's, but what if Dyatlov Group met, let's say, a group of people that was "not happy" about it's location made public/reported to the authorities and this group acted more intelligent than the Romanian resistance group from the example above, leaving no traces.

The people forming this group was trained to live in the mountains and to leave no traces in order not to be found by the authorities, that's why we have no footprints other than the tourist's footprints. Well, maybe they have missed one footprint : (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-steps-04.jpg)

They find the hikers, they cut the tent and order them to come out and to go in the cedar area (this zone was protected from the wind, so it was easier to interogate te students there). Tent cut from inside? Maybe not. A I read, the first search team made itself some cuts in the tent and I didn't find in the report anything about this... so maybe the report is wrong. Or maybe the hikers have made also some cuts in order co come out quicker.

Three hikers didn't made it until the cedar, they try to fight the members of the resistance group, they are beaten and left in the snow where they die.
The rest of the hikers are "interrogated" under the cedar : tho of them are stripped by their clothes in order for the others to say if they are secret service agents. The two stripped hikers die.
After this they applied another torture : submerging the bodies in freezing water/cutting tongue / beating. After all the hikers show no signs of life, they cover their own traces leave.

Radiations? Well, the bomb or whatever it was exploded in the area on 17 February. So the contamination could have been made after the death of the hikers.



Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Puchiko on March 15, 2019, 06:29:03 AM
All the murder theories have the same flaws:
- No footprints. You say they were "trained to leave no trace", but that doesn't give you the ability to fly. We're talking about enough people to take down 9 young and fit athletes - it would take a small army and it seems unlikely they'd leave no trace. I'll admit the footprints are poorly documented though, so let's dig deeper.
- Zolotaryov had a notebook in his hand a camera around his neck. Why would the attackers let him have a camera with potentially incriminating evidence?
- The injuries of the Ravine 4 are massive internal trauma with no damage to soft tissue. Autopsy reports confirm this couldn't have been caused by another human.
- The group was obviously alive for a while after leaving the tent. They built a fire and presumably dug out the den. It appears that they did not die all at once and that the longest surviving took the clothing of the Yuris, who died first. Why would the attackers let them do that?
- The attackers would surely have a use for the food and equipment belonging to the group, but it was left untouched in the tent. Why?
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 15, 2019, 07:41:52 AM
I will try to find some exlanation for the flaws:

1. Footprints -  I've made some research, it seems that, at least in Romania, the anticommunist resistance groups had techniques to minimize/erase the footprints in the snow:
Quote
"Traveling in the snow it was done with the "hârzoabe", some braided twigs of circular shape, to not sink in the snow, and the erasure of the footprints was mandatory"
http://www.gazetademaramures.ro/images/supplement/eroii-rezistentei-anticomuniste-31.pdf
Also see the boot footprint from the above photo. How many people with guns you need to control 9 hikers?

2.Camera. If the attackers wanted to remain invisible, they obviously wanted to leave all the personal belongings of the hikers intact. Well, the film inside camera showed only black images, what this tells us? A negative becomes totally black only when exposed to light. So maybe they pulled out the film from the camera, exposed it to light, then inserted it back in the camera. Pen and notepad? It was written something on the notepad? It could be put on the hands of  Zolotaryov after he died. Why? To make the scene more realistic probably.

3.Injuries - If one man jumps on the chest of somebody, it crushes his ribs? I don't know. For sure this does not leave marks on the skin.

4. The group was alive (well almost, three were left unconscious on the way to the cedar). Probably the attackers tortured the hikers to admit that they work for the secret services, see the Romanian event from the first post. Some of the hikers had some links to the secret services, don't they? The fire wasn't made by the hikers, otherwise they would be alive. Also the "den" wasn't built for the hikers also. The branches on the snow wasn't for them also, the hikers were inside the river. So the attackers made this "blanket" of  branches for them not to freeze. The hikers were tortured inside the water. Dubinina's position looks like someone kept her with the head submerged under water... probably kicked her in her back until the ribs were broken. Tongue was cut before? The blood in her stomach shows that she was still alive when the tongue was cut, her heart was beating...

5. Nobody who wants to keep it's location secret would'n t want to leave traces of his existence. This is why they didn't take anything
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Clacon on March 15, 2019, 09:21:48 AM
Hi there,

Not entirely sure of ALL of the details of the event, and perhaps the following statements I make need clarification, but I got the impression the Hikers themselves were Communist supporters?? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That doesn't rule out that they weren't out there or dispensed of, for political reasons (good point you made!) although I keep going back to something in one of the girls' diaries regarding "geology" and rocks around the are? Don't know what that was about unless one of them was studying in that area.

I'm beginning to believe that "traversing and conquering the difficult terrain to obtain certifications" was a maybe a cover for being up there. I don't know....something about Igor's vagueness and change of course makes me suspicious. But I'm a conspiracy theorist so I find everything suspicious.

I am at a loss as to how Zolotaryov's camera remained structurally intact after his ribs were broken in the area it would hang off his neck. Unless of course, there was structural damage to it and we just can't see from the photos. The evidence logging is notoriously lacking. I don't really trust anything recorded unfortunately, not even the autopsy reports.

If it was truly intact, then I would say Zolotaryov experienced that crushing force from behind OR the camera was planted. Which means theres a coverup. I don't know the cover up artists murdered the hikers. I feel like I'm going one way with a theory and then I change direction.

**** Actually just went back to look at the picture and it maybe looks like it was around his wrist which is lying right about neck area - the camera looks fairly intact but is sitting very   
        high on his neck and the angle its lying at looks like the strap is on his wrist, not around his neck - could be a clue??? What does everyone else see???

I also don't believe the 3 on the way to the cedar died on the way there. I think they were all originally at the cedar. One thing I believe for sure is that the 2 Yuri's died first and their clothing was taken by other members of the group - I don't believe they were strip searched bc then they all would have been secverely underdressed AND their clothes were found on the others - burn marks and all. It just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would feel a need to cover that up?? (the removal of clothing I mean) - its way too tedious - undressing one corpse to put their clothing on another. What for??

Some things about those three I find interesting:

Their bodies to me show the most compelling evidence of a fight (knuckles bruised, Igors bloody lip etc) - now I don't know if it was between the Hikers or they were fighting their outside attackers. Someone on the forum wisely said that the majority of those murdered know their attackers and I don't know if things were particularly kosher between all members of the group, just based on diary entries. Do I think they murdered each other...God I just can't say. Something in my gut just tells me there was a fight between them.

My next point about that group is that Igor and Zina were found so close together. He had a picture of her on him. I don't know if this is significant, other than the fact that maybe there was something between them or at least maybe that Igor was close to her to protect her OR was going after her if they had had a fight.

Any thoughts??
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: NkZ on March 15, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
Interesting. Hard to link to radioactivity.... but:
+ we have a gulag nearby with potential escapes: still over 10 000 prisoners in 1959 (http://www.gulag.online/articles/mapa-taborovych-sprav-gulagu-a-pribehu-ze-stredni-evropy?locale=en)
+ In the case files it is said that uncle slava (ex convict) resigned from his work (Ryazhnev testimony, settlement 41 on march 6): he could have been a contact between fugitives and the outside world (they hunt or dig gold and he sells it, and buys them commodities?) ? (strangely though, uncle slava testifies on the 7th in Idvel and still has the same occupation as at the moment of facts. What is he doing in Idvel? running away?)
+ Also a mention that money was found in the snow near the cedar (Atmanaki , sheet 216) why would a hiker keep 8 rubles in a pocket, and throw it away before dying? Except if you beg your murderer to accept money for life?
+ in a online  article ( https://www.miamighostchronicles.com/stranger-than-fiction/another-disappearnce-at-dyatlov-pass )on a hiker dying from heart attack returning from the pass a few years ago, it is mentioned the recent discovery of a dead « ermit » near the pass, probably too young to be involved though. Just shows appart from Mansi a few people are at loose in these parts. Runaways becoming ermits?
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 15, 2019, 12:47:35 PM
In my country, after the communists came, many people/former WW2 soldiers went in the mountains forming anti-communist resistance groups(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement)).
One event has come to my mind recently related to one resistance group, and the events are somehow similar:

Quote
The death of the undercover tourists
September 2, 1950. Toma Arnăuţoiu, Petre Arnăuţoiu, Constantin Jubleanu and Ion Marinescu meet with tourists Aurel Bârsan, Băş Ghervase, Neniu Dumitru, Venter Teodor and Maria Tiron on Gălăşescu Mountain. Educate to be circumspect with any unknown, the four interogate the to the strangers until they revealed them. Tourists were undercover Security Agents. Aurel Barsan is the only one left alive.
https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti (https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti)

Quote
On September 2, 1950, the terrorists Arnauţoiu Toma, Arnăuţoiu Petre, Marinescu Ion and Jubleanu Constantin attacked with arms a group of people on the tourist route Sîmbăta-Moldoveanu, at the point named Piscul Călăşescului, bestially murdering four people and namely: security platoon Băiş Ghervase, Neniu Petre, worker, PCR member, engineer Venţer Teodor and student Tiron Maria. After they murdered them, the terrorists robbed them of the objects they had on them, stripped them and then run, hiding at one of the hut they had in the mountains. Student Tiron Maria, being only injured, was eventually shot dead with bullets in her heart and her head. "
Secret Service Report - https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html (https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html)


I'm not familiar with the resistance groups in Russia in the '50's, but what if Dyatlov Group met, let's say, a group of people that was "not happy" about it's location made public/reported to the authorities and this group acted more intelligent than the Romanian resistance group from the example above, leaving no traces.

The people forming this group was trained to live in the mountains and to leave no traces in order not to be found by the authorities, that's why we have no footprints other than the tourist's footprints. Well, maybe they have missed one footprint : (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-steps-04.jpg)

They find the hikers, they cut the tent and order them to come out and to go in the cedar area (this zone was protected from the wind, so it was easier to interogate te students there). Tent cut from inside? Maybe not. A I read, the first search team made itself some cuts in the tent and I didn't find in the report anything about this... so maybe the report is wrong. Or maybe the hikers have made also some cuts in order co come out quicker.

Three hikers didn't made it until the cedar, they try to fight the members of the resistance group, they are beaten and left in the snow where they die.
The rest of the hikers are "interrogated" under the cedar : tho of them are stripped by their clothes in order for the others to say if they are secret service agents. The two stripped hikers die.
After this they applied another torture : submerging the bodies in freezing water/cutting tongue / beating. After all the hikers show no signs of life, they cover their own traces leave.

Radiations? Well, the bomb or whatever it was exploded in the area on 17 February. So the contamination could have been made after the death of the hikers.

What Country are you from  ?   I think as many others would say this particular Theory is another variation on the theme of Murder. And the Dyatlov Group appear to be good Communists, etc. The area that they traveled through has no records of anti communist activity.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 15, 2019, 12:52:04 PM
I will try to find some exlanation for the flaws:

1. Footprints -  I've made some research, it seems that, at least in Romania, the anticommunist resistance groups had techniques to minimize/erase the footprints in the snow:
Quote
"Traveling in the snow it was done with the "hârzoabe", some braided twigs of circular shape, to not sink in the snow, and the erasure of the footprints was mandatory"
http://www.gazetademaramures.ro/images/supplement/eroii-rezistentei-anticomuniste-31.pdf
Also see the boot footprint from the above photo. How many people with guns you need to control 9 hikers?

2.Camera. If the attackers wanted to remain invisible, they obviously wanted to leave all the personal belongings of the hikers intact. Well, the film inside camera showed only black images, what this tells us? A negative becomes totally black only when exposed to light. So maybe they pulled out the film from the camera, exposed it to light, then inserted it back in the camera. Pen and notepad? It was written something on the notepad? It could be put on the hands of  Zolotaryov after he died. Why? To make the scene more realistic probably.

3.Injuries - If one man jumps on the chest of somebody, it crushes his ribs? I don't know. For sure this does not leave marks on the skin.

4. The group was alive (well almost, three were left unconscious on the way to the cedar). Probably the attackers tortured the hikers to admit that they work for the secret services, see the Romanian event from the first post. Some of the hikers had some links to the secret services, don't they? The fire wasn't made by the hikers, otherwise they would be alive. Also the "den" wasn't built for the hikers also. The branches on the snow wasn't for them also, the hikers were inside the river. So the attackers made this "blanket" of  branches for them not to freeze. The hikers were tortured inside the water. Dubinina's position looks like someone kept her with the head submerged under water... probably kicked her in her back until the ribs were broken. Tongue was cut before? The blood in her stomach shows that she was still alive when the tongue was cut, her heart was beating...

5. Nobody who wants to keep it's location secret would'n t want to leave traces of his existence. This is why they didn't take anything


But why would any body contemplating Murder wait until the Dyatlov Group were in such an exposed location where erasing evidence would be more difficult,etc. Plenty of remote more likely places to commit Murder while on the way to the Mountain that the Dyatlov Group were heading for.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 15, 2019, 12:57:31 PM
Hi there,

Not entirely sure of ALL of the details of the event, and perhaps the following statements I make need clarification, but I got the impression the Hikers themselves were Communist supporters?? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That doesn't rule out that they weren't out there or dispensed of, for political reasons (good point you made!) although I keep going back to something in one of the girls' diaries regarding "geology" and rocks around the are? Don't know what that was about unless one of them was studying in that area.

I'm beginning to believe that "traversing and conquering the difficult terrain to obtain certifications" was a maybe a cover for being up there. I don't know....something about Igor's vagueness and change of course makes me suspicious. But I'm a conspiracy theorist so I find everything suspicious.

I am at a loss as to how Zolotaryov's camera remained structurally intact after his ribs were broken in the area it would hang off his neck. Unless of course, there was structural damage to it and we just can't see from the photos. The evidence logging is notoriously lacking. I don't really trust anything recorded unfortunately, not even the autopsy reports.

If it was truly intact, then I would say Zolotaryov experienced that crushing force from behind OR the camera was planted. Which means theres a coverup. I don't know the cover up artists murdered the hikers. I feel like I'm going one way with a theory and then I change direction.

**** Actually just went back to look at the picture and it maybe looks like it was around his wrist which is lying right about neck area - the camera looks fairly intact but is sitting very   
        high on his neck and the angle its lying at looks like the strap is on his wrist, not around his neck - could be a clue??? What does everyone else see???

I also don't believe the 3 on the way to the cedar died on the way there. I think they were all originally at the cedar. One thing I believe for sure is that the 2 Yuri's died first and their clothing was taken by other members of the group - I don't believe they were strip searched bc then they all would have been secverely underdressed AND their clothes were found on the others - burn marks and all. It just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would feel a need to cover that up?? (the removal of clothing I mean) - its way too tedious - undressing one corpse to put their clothing on another. What for??

Some things about those three I find interesting:

Their bodies to me show the most compelling evidence of a fight (knuckles bruised, Igors bloody lip etc) - now I don't know if it was between the Hikers or they were fighting their outside attackers. Someone on the forum wisely said that the majority of those murdered know their attackers and I don't know if things were particularly kosher between all members of the group, just based on diary entries. Do I think they murdered each other...God I just can't say. Something in my gut just tells me there was a fight between them.

My next point about that group is that Igor and Zina were found so close together. He had a picture of her on him. I don't know if this is significant, other than the fact that maybe there was something between them or at least maybe that Igor was close to her to protect her OR was going after her if they had had a fight.

Any thoughts??

The Dyatlov Group were all good Communists. Part of there task was collecting mineral samples I believe. Some of the injuries could well have been caused in a fight of some kind. They may well have been defending themselves against someone or something.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 16, 2019, 02:31:45 AM
Perm Gulag camps seem to be close to Dyatlov incident location.
(http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/perm36-src/images/map-perm-detail.jpg)
http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/perm36.php

Lots of camps in the area...
(https://i.imgur.com/wKCe9.jpg)

As I understand, in gulag camps were imprisoned also criminals etc:
Quote
"Criminal prisoners, camping out in the forests, would organize themselves into bands, steal weapons, and even attack local residents, geological parties, and native villages. [...] Generally, memoirists agree that the overwhelming majority of would-be runaways were professional criminals. https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php (https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php)
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?

Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 16, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
His hands were in his pockets which just happened to be where the notepad and pencil were.

The gulags are said to have been disbanded in 1953 shortly after the death of Stalin.  However, it is my understanding that not all gulags were the same.  In other words, there were mentally ill, petty criminals, violent criminals, white collar criminals, political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities.  This is the reason I asked WAB if the logging camp they stopped at happened to be labor camp. While in 1959 the loggers were a "community" that were there working on their own free will, I am uncertain that was always the case. I have also seen the maps posted above regarding gulag locations and wonder how many released 'detainees' of varying degrees stayed in these locations post 1953, or never left the region in general.   

Food for thought. 
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 16, 2019, 09:05:19 PM
My mother inlaw is Russian, and was raised not far from the incident.  When she moved to the US she brought her mother with her. Her mothers entire family (father, mother, brother, and her) had their flower mill confinscated by the state under Stalin and they were split up and sent to different gulags under the excuse they were political enemies of the state to get rid of them. She spent something like 10 years underground in an old mine assembling short range rockets for the army. She told me when times were really tough, they resorted to consuming glycerin used in the propellant of the rockets for substance.  Her brother lost his right hand for steeling a loaf of bread..... her parents were never seen again. 
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 16, 2019, 11:58:30 PM
Ivdel Gulag had in 1959 15148 prisoners
NYROB gulag - 19618
Usollag  - 17989. "In 1955, a couple of years after Stalin’s death, the remaining political prisoners were transferred from Usollag to other camps, and then Usollag became a camp for regular criminals" https://newslanc.com/celebrating-the-75th-anniversary-of-a-russian-gulag/ (https://newslanc.com/celebrating-the-75th-anniversary-of-a-russian-gulag/)
So yes, we have in the area active gulags in 1959. Probably most of them camps for criminals
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 17, 2019, 06:04:28 AM
Very interesting.

Also an aspect in which I suspect Russians are unwilling to discuss regarding this matter. 
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: NkZ on March 17, 2019, 12:42:56 PM
In some cases small nations within the cccp (like mansi ....) where bounty hunters of gulag fugitives (French University source). Could the initial insistance of witness interviews on a Mansi lead be explained by that? They suspected a mistake by their regular auxiliary?
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 17, 2019, 02:05:30 PM
In one article posted above is written the same thing:

Quote
If ideology and fear did not impel the locals to turn in escaped prisoners, greed did. Fairly or unfairly, many memoirists believe that local tribal peoples—the Eskimos of the far north, the Kazakhs to the south—were constantly on the lookout for runaways. Some became professional bounty-hunters, searching for prisoners in return for a kilogram of tea or a bag of wheat. 11 In Kolyma, a local inhabitant who brought in the right hand of a runaway—or, by some accounts, the runaway’s head—received a 250-ruble prize, and the prizes seem to have been similar elsewhere.12 In one recorded case, a local man recognized an escaped prisoner masquerading as a free man, and reported his presence to the police. He received 250 rubles. His son, who had gone to the police station, received 150 as well. In another case, a man who reported the location of a runaway to a camp chief was given the princely sum of 300 rubles.13
https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php (https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php)

May be the case of Mansi people...


Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 18, 2019, 02:04:44 PM
The location of the Dyatlov Incident doesnt jump out and say BANDIT COUNTRY. Why ! ? Its just too exposed. People be they Bandits or Natives need the right conditions in which to survive. The Mansi may have hunted up near that area but they lived lower down.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Vietnamka on March 18, 2019, 08:35:04 PM
GeneralFailure

Quote
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?

We have information about the  ascapes from the camps in 1959. May be Teddy will translate this table, but you can understand the dates.
There was only one escape during winter time - from 19 to 21 of February, from.... Ivdel's camp. Too late.
(https://b.radikal.ru/b13/1903/a2/e429892dd645.jpg)

Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 19, 2019, 01:35:00 AM
Very interesting. But walking from the camps to the mountains takes time. For 1958 you have some data?
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: WAB on March 19, 2019, 01:48:58 AM
GeneralFailure

Quote
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?

We have information about the  ascapes from the camps in 1959. May be Teddy will translate this table, but you can understand the dates.
There was only one escape during winter time - from 19 to 21 of February, from.... Ivdel's camp. Too late.

Galina, well what пуд рить людя м моз ги so long and difficult tell about the simple?
Whether is easier give short digest on the merits of the case? For this purpose it is not necessary even translate all sheet. Who wants - can disassemble itself first three lines from it.
Briefly it turns out so:
On February, 19th, 1959 from camp Ivdele ran three prisoners who have caught already on February, 21st practically in the same place.
By this time all terms of travel Dyatlov group have passed for long time already.
From myself I can add: they prisoners, instead of idiots what run towards pass almost 200 km ( ~ 125 mi), whence it is necessary to move yet less than 300 … 400 km ( ~ 185…250 mi) to the nearest settlement. Especially movement without skis on snow depth 1 … 1,5 m ( ~ 3…5 ft) simply is impossible. And it is necessary to have still possibility, skill and equipment for several wood (without small houses and an oven) spending the night in conditions of winter of Northern Ural Mountains in February. Then there quite often there come frosts to-40C ( -40 F), and sometimes and to-50C( -58 F). For example – it is Swedish expedition in January and February 2019. + the travel of group Chelyabinsk and Nizhniy Tagil (and as also our expedition) in February 2014. And now the winter became softer, in comparison with 1959 because has taken place the general warming of a climate.
On it the theme of murder Dyatlov group by prisoners can be closed in general. And who wants to continue conversation for conversation process - it we will not disturb. You that is want? Simply talk, or find out that there has occurred?

(https://b.radikal.ru/b13/1903/a2/e429892dd645.jpg)
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: WAB on March 19, 2019, 01:53:38 AM
Very interesting. But walking from the camps to the mountains takes time. For 1958 you have some data?

I am sorry, but what for the data for 1958 if we here discuss Dyatlov group is necessary us?
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Vietnamka on March 19, 2019, 04:11:21 AM
Very interesting. But walking from the camps to the mountains takes time. For 1958 you have some data?
I have a "balance" of "not caught" prisoners on date 01/01/1959
Only one  not caught, he has escaped on 1957, will be will be caught in 1959  far away from tht pass.

PS.
 I checked not only Ivdel camp, I checked all the camps. All information from the State Archive of the Russian Federation
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Vietnamka on March 19, 2019, 04:13:50 AM

I am sorry, but what for the data for 1958 if we here discuss Dyatlov group is necessary us?
Its correct question. Some prisioners could escape in the end of Dec 1958.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 19, 2019, 06:23:23 AM
Can people not travel in 1959 Russia?
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 19, 2019, 12:08:21 PM
Perm Gulag camps seem to be close to Dyatlov incident location.
(http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/perm36-src/images/map-perm-detail.jpg)
http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/perm36.php

Lots of camps in the area...
(https://i.imgur.com/wKCe9.jpg)

As I understand, in gulag camps were imprisoned also criminals etc:
Quote
"Criminal prisoners, camping out in the forests, would organize themselves into bands, steal weapons, and even attack local residents, geological parties, and native villages. [...] Generally, memoirists agree that the overwhelming majority of would-be runaways were professional criminals. https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php (https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php)
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?


Yes lots of camps in the USSR.  NONE at all any where near the Dyatlov Incident  !  ? 
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Vietnamka on March 20, 2019, 09:18:21 AM



Yes lots of camps in the USSR.  NONE at all any where near the Dyatlov Incident  !  ?
What do you mean "near"? 100 km? 300 km? 500 km???
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: WAB on March 20, 2019, 01:06:01 PM

I am sorry, but what for the data for 1958 if we here discuss Dyatlov group is necessary us?
Its correct question. Some prisioners could escape in the end of Dec 1958.

It is wrong statement of question. I spoke about logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival of running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. And if they cannot live and move there without special equipment and skills in current of week speak about several months already there is no sense. The typical example of such possibilities is available about Oleg Borodin in January 2015. Therefore it is not necessary begin conversations for no reason. We does not come nearer to the purpose, and we leave from it.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Vietnamka on March 20, 2019, 06:21:10 PM


It is wrong statement of question. I spoke about logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival of running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. And if they cannot live and move there without special equipment and skills in current of week speak about several months already there is no sense. The typical example of such possibilities is available about Oleg Borodin in January 2015. Therefore it is not necessary begin conversations for no reason. We does not come nearer to the purpose, and we leave from it.
You can speak about "logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival" with a tourist guys. You was talking about impossibility of escapes during winter time for years. I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, doesn't matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisioner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.

Escape - not only "some guys left", it's mean "another guys try to catch ". At least two different groups of people can be in the same area. The best way for prisioners cross the border of  "Sverdlovskaya oblast" as soon as possible due to organization of searching.
For better understanding- "oblast " like a state in USA. You need time to provide information and organize searching there. Tent was found exactly on the border of 3 "oblast" - Sverdlovskay, Permskaya, KOmi.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: WAB on March 21, 2019, 12:42:00 PM


It is wrong statement of question. I spoke about logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival of running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. And if they cannot live and move there without special equipment and skills in current of week speak about several months already there is no sense. The typical example of such possibilities is available about Oleg Borodin in January 2015. Therefore it is not necessary begin conversations for no reason. We does not come nearer to the purpose, and we leave from it.
You can speak about "logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival" with a tourist guys. You was talking about impossibility of escapes during winter time for years.

You it is perfect distorted understand that I speak. Probably you consider running concluded by full idiots because they wish to run as it is possible further from those places where they can quickly leave or have an opportunity to hide and survive. Runaway towards pass (these are 200 km from Ivdel and still it is necessary to take place 400 km to the nearest inhabited settlement) you considers as the most important purpose of their movement. It how to regard from the point of view of normal perception of events? To tell about what that the friend I do not want, because it not a discussion theme in the given place. Probably you consider that skills of movement and maintenance with equipment are identical at the running concluded and well prepared tourists. Do not find defect in own perception of the validity? Runaway during winter time and runaway towards pass is different concepts. Therefore it is not necessary to substitute for one another only for this purpose what to argue for the sake of dispute process.

I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, doesn't matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisioner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.

Also what? You have found those concluded which ran towards pass in the winter? Or you simply have found those who tried to run in the winter and has made it unsuccessfully? At you this same it is?

Escape - not only "some guys left", it's mean "another guys try to catch ". At least two different groups of people can be in the same area. The best way for prisioners cross the border of  "Sverdlovskaya oblast" as soon as possible due to organization of searching.

1.What for cross border of Sverdlovsk area? Them there meet with an orchestra and pies? Or they therefrom should go still 400 km? They should go in the winter, without equipment and sufficient preparation?
2. You have though one example of runaway in the winter in the given area in any party, except the South or the SouthWest? That is there where there is a normal habitation and transport highways …
3.You do not tell yet only that мы не умеем сациви готовить I can estimate is worse you survival possibility in such conditions ….

For better understanding- "oblast " like a state in USA. You need time to provide information and organize searching there. Tent was found exactly on the border of 3 "oblast" - Sverdlovskay, Permskaya, KOmi.

We now that discuss? Possibility concluded run towards pass or searches of prisoners in USA state /in territory of Sverdlovsk and Perm area and Komi ASSR.
I hope, though in times 1959?  kewl1
I speak only about events with Dyatlov group and about what I will not speak any more. Because it is waste of time and words.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 22, 2019, 12:16:21 PM



Yes lots of camps in the USSR.  NONE at all any where near the Dyatlov Incident  !  ?
What do you mean "near"? 100 km? 300 km? 500 km???

When I think of near in the context of the Dyatlov Incident I think in terms of less than 30 km.  Because 30 km is a long way in those type of conditions. 100 km in those conditions would be pushing it, for any so called escapees.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Nordlander on March 27, 2019, 08:41:08 PM
I don't think it was escapees from a gulag. For one thing, trying to escape during winter was known to cause almost certain death for those who didn't have a nearby support network.

I just read an essay by an anthropologist about attitudes toward the gulags in the area, and she stated that the Mansi were used as bounty hunters of escapees. But she said that, from what she could tell, it happened far less often than it was threatened. The administrators of the gulags would tell prisoners that if they escaped the Mansi or Khanty would catch them. Like telling children the boogy man would get them.

Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 28, 2019, 01:27:17 PM
I don't think it was escapees from a gulag. For one thing, trying to escape during winter was known to cause almost certain death for those who didn't have a nearby support network.

I just read an essay by an anthropologist about attitudes toward the gulags in the area, and she stated that the Mansi were used as bounty hunters of escapees. But she said that, from what she could tell, it happened far less often than it was threatened. The administrators of the gulags would tell prisoners that if they escaped the Mansi or Khanty would catch them. Like telling children the boogy man would get them.

Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

We dont know if they were attacked by anyone. The Murder Theory is one of many.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 04:11:13 AM
Didn't knew that khanti and mansy people revolted and fought against soviet collectivization. Sure, it's more than 25 years before the Dyatlov incident, but it's still interesting to know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazym_rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazym_rebellion)
http://www.hrono.ru/sobyt/1931sssr.html (http://www.hrono.ru/sobyt/1931sssr.html)
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 01:38:30 PM
Didn't knew that khanti and mansy people revolted and fought against soviet collectivization. Sure, it's more than 25 years before the Dyatlov incident, but it's still interesting to know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazym_rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazym_rebellion)
http://www.hrono.ru/sobyt/1931sssr.html (http://www.hrono.ru/sobyt/1931sssr.html)

Yes good information.  Similar to what happens to many tribal people around the World from time to time. Think American Indians. A lot can happen in 25 years though. They can be killing one another one year and then making peace the next year.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 02, 2020, 03:58:11 PM

The food for thought offered by Loose}{Cannon   March 16, 2019   Reply #9  and Reply #10

... In other words, there were .... political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities..........

 My mother inlaw is Russian,.....................She told me when times were really tough,........... Her brother lost his right hand for steeling a loaf of bread..... her parents were never seen again.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

...................
Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed.
................................
I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

..................................
prisoners..........................
..................

...................................
 running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. .
....................


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

I do not suspect the prisoners from some distant Gulag camp. The prisoners, who are often called Zeks in international literature, were well guarded continuously night and day.

But after Stalin's death in 1953, first Beria and then Khrushchev ordered mass releases ;
and within a few years the population of the zeks was halved: 2 million zeks became 1 million zeks + 1 million ex-zeks.

The liberated people, often called ex-zeks, were in principle free men, but there were many different administrative statutes.
To put it simply, an ex-zek was almost as free as an ordinary Soviet citizen.

 A certain proportion of these ex-zeks found themselves in unsuitable material and moral conditions.
    • This caused social difficulties in Soviet society between 1953 and 1964.
    • This contributed to the fall of Khrushchev to Brezhnev in 1964.

The attackers, who were ex-zeks, had no material difficulties in catching (joining) the hikers on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl on the evening of 1 February 1959.
 

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The attackers came from the Vizhay region, maybe even simply from settlement 41.

The attackers lived in houses that were comfortable for the time (1959): good food, plenty of firewood, maybe sturdy furniture.

The attackers could have been under house arrest. They had to check in every fortnight, they could only go to certain small towns. But they could work, move around, wander freely in the (big) forest (without going outside certain boundaries).

The attackers knew the route planned for the Dyatloc group because the hikers had (too much) talked about it at Vizhay, at the settlement, at the Rempel forester...

In 1959 there remained in the vicinity of Vizhay a small proportion of ex-zeks or former political prisoners who had many good reasons to hate the Soviet regime and who were ready to continue their patriotic struggle.

It is difficult to know if these were: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians... or from other countries.


One of the goals of the hike was "Conducting conversations and reports among the population."
It became easy (but not without risks) for a certain number (3?, 4?) of ex-zeks to improvise, in a few days, a spectacular action to galvanize opposition to this Stalinist propaganda.

From Vizhay to North-2 the journey is made fatigue-free in a motor vehicle or in a horse-drawn sleigh

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTyHIzyvZv1O5uFJiuoMaJdeeTG5AsK1nIBO8dcSJ8yrogjFGIU&usqp=CAU)

cf Atmanaki, Sheet 209 :
In Vizhay arrived around noon, ...and agreed in the car park that a passing car we will take us to the village of IInd North, the easiest starting point to go on the route.

From North-2 to the tent, the trace left by the 9 hikers is clearly visible and easy to follow, in less than one day, (except maybe the last mile on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl).

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-23.jpg)

Here is the photographic proof of the existence of pursuers that many investigators want to ignore !

Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

The attackers, who had no guns and no daggers, with difficulty succeeded in defeating the hikers, after 9 hours of fighting in the snow and at night.

This is why I will henceforth send my argumentation in the Topic: "Altercation on the pass" ( and not on Murdered).
 
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:22:29 PM


The food for thought offered by Loose}{Cannon   March 16, 2019   Reply #9  and Reply #10

... In other words, there were .... political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities..........

 My mother inlaw is Russian,.....................She told me when times were really tough,........... Her brother lost his right hand for steeling a loaf of bread..... her parents were never seen again.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

...................
Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed.
................................
I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

..................................
prisoners..........................
..................

...................................
 running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. .
....................


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

I do not suspect the prisoners from some distant Gulag camp. The prisoners, who are often called Zeks in international literature, were well guarded continuously night and day.

But after Stalin's death in 1953, first Beria and then Khrushchev ordered mass releases ;
and within a few years the population of the zeks was halved: 2 million zeks became 1 million zeks + 1 million ex-zeks.

The liberated people, often called ex-zeks, were in principle free men, but there were many different administrative statutes.
To put it simply, an ex-zek was almost as free as an ordinary Soviet citizen.

 A certain proportion of these ex-zeks found themselves in unsuitable material and moral conditions.
    • This caused social difficulties in Soviet society between 1953 and 1964.
    • This contributed to the fall of Khrushchev to Brezhnev in 1964.

The attackers, who were ex-zeks, had no material difficulties in catching (joining) the hikers on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl on the evening of 1 February 1959.
 

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The attackers came from the Vizhay region, maybe even simply from settlement 41.

The attackers lived in houses that were comfortable for the time (1959): good food, plenty of firewood, maybe sturdy furniture.

The attackers could have been under house arrest. They had to check in every fortnight, they could only go to certain small towns. But they could work, move around, wander freely in the (big) forest (without going outside certain boundaries).

The attackers knew the route planned for the Dyatloc group because the hikers had (too much) talked about it at Vizhay, at the settlement, at the Rempel forester...

In 1959 there remained in the vicinity of Vizhay a small proportion of ex-zeks or former political prisoners who had many good reasons to hate the Soviet regime and who were ready to continue their patriotic struggle.

It is difficult to know if these were: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians... or from other countries.


One of the goals of the hike was "Conducting conversations and reports among the population."
It became easy (but not without risks) for a certain number (3?, 4?) of ex-zeks to improvise, in a few days, a spectacular action to galvanize opposition to this Stalinist propaganda.

From Vizhay to North-2 the journey is made fatigue-free in a motor vehicle or in a horse-drawn sleigh

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTyHIzyvZv1O5uFJiuoMaJdeeTG5AsK1nIBO8dcSJ8yrogjFGIU&usqp=CAU)

cf Atmanaki, Sheet 209 :
In Vizhay arrived around noon, ...and agreed in the car park that a passing car we will take us to the village of IInd North, the easiest starting point to go on the route.

From North-2 to the tent, the trace left by the 9 hikers is clearly visible and easy to follow, in less than one day, (except maybe the last mile on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl).

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-23.jpg)

Here is the photographic proof of the existence of pursuers that many investigators want to ignore !

Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

The attackers, who had no guns and no daggers, with difficulty succeeded in defeating the hikers, after 9 hours of fighting in the snow and at night.

This is why I will henceforth send my argumentation in the Topic: "Altercation on the pass" ( and not on Murdered).


You use up a lot of space to SPECULATE WILDLY.  You provide no EVIDENCE to back up your ASSERTIONS.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: PJ on June 03, 2020, 04:49:34 PM
Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

Yes, it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo. Why?
- The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,
- on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,
- Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"
- white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,
- why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on June 09, 2020, 02:30:42 PM
Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

Yes, it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo. Why?
- The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,
- on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,
- Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"
- white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,
- why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.

The snow looks about 2 foot deep. The figure is leaning forwards. That would mean the figure is probably well over 6 foot tall.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 18, 2020, 08:42:19 AM
Yes, it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo. Why?
- The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,
- on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,
- Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"
- white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,
- why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.

Your arguments for the fact that photo No. 17 actually represents Tibo are worthwhile, but are not absolute proof.
 IHMO doubt remains.

  •••  The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,

In 1959, in the USSR, there was not much choice in the clothing. A large proportion of people wore dark pants and light jackets.

Tibo's lighter jacket seems to descend a little lower than that of the No. 17 figure.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-06.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-09.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-unknown-camera-film5-17.jpg)

  •••  on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,

This argument is weak because after taking 3 pictures of himself it is possible that he could have triggered his camera by seeing a sudden and unexpected appearance.

  •••  Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"

    a) It is difficult to know if figure No. 17 is not on his skis.

    b) In this case, the distance between the camera and the object is long. If it is Tibo who appears on picture No. 17, the timer had to be set for a long time and also the camera had to be precisely oriented for the framing of the picture to be correct. Why after all these worries Tibo would not have adjusted the focus correctly ?   
 
  •••  white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,

    a) No one disagrees that the photos grouped under the heading "Film ?3 - 17 photos, photographer unknown (most likely Thibault-Brignolle)", were taken with the same camera. 
https://dyatlovpass.com/cameras

    b) The "white balance/exposure" is mostly set during the printing and enlargement process on photo paper in laboratory.

    c) It would therefore be necessary to examine the negative which is in the archives; I have not examined it.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-film3.jpg

  •••  why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.
 
More likely, the camera has no defect, but it is Tibo who is not careful and does not take the time to adjust the focus when he could (should) do so.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

For me there is also another argument to think that photo N° 17 is Tibo.
 According to a remark by alecsandros : if figure N°17 was a stranger with unusual behavior then the hikers would have been more or less worried.
They would then have left the tent the next day (February 1, 1959) holding in their hands the axes and the ice axe...etc, in order to defend themselves against possible attackers.

...............
The snow looks about 2 foot deep. The figure is leaning forwards. That would mean the figure is probably well over 6 foot tall.

Personally I am unable to estimate the size of the figure N° 17.

 "6 foot tall" = 183 cm 
According to the autopsy report Tibo is : "174 cm in length".

( https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=23.0 ---> Sheet 352 )

The difference between 183 cm and 174 cm is small. Tibo or not Tibo? Doubt remains.

Once again, it is impossible to reach a firm conclusion  !

Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 04:13:23 PM
All the murder theories have the same flaws:
- No footprints. You say they were "trained to leave no trace", but that doesn't give you the ability to fly. We're talking about enough people to take down 9 young and fit athletes - it would take a small army and it seems unlikely they'd leave no trace. I'll admit the footprints are poorly documented though, so let's dig deeper.

-They are trained to leave as little evidence they were there as they could.
-They have plenty of time to go back and cover most of their tracks later on in the day(s) immediately after the attack.
-They didn't need to follow the hikers if they had weapons that had significant range advantage(rifles) so 6 men would be sufficient if 4 of them were far enough away to make it extremely unlikely to overwhelm the entire attacking group.
-They had no reason to worry, initially it was a rescue mission so the search party was more concerned with finding the hikers rather than documenting the scene.

Quote
- Zolotaryov had a notebook in his hand a camera around his neck. Why would the attackers let him have a camera with potentially incriminating evidence?
Because they went back and checked the bodies during the daylight, nothing was written on the notepad or they would have taken it and there was likely an easy way to ensure that the film is destroyed without leaving evidence of intentionally destroying it.



Quote
- The injuries of the Ravine 4 are massive internal trauma with no damage to soft tissue. Autopsy reports confirm this couldn't have been caused by another human.
By the time the autoposy was done on the 4 in the Ravine, the decision was made that it was an accident so saying anything else would have been counter productive. The rest of the injuries were very obviously from a fight, so the 4 in the Ravine would have had to get the injuries from somewhere, either from falling on a rock, being hit by an animal or a human.
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- The group was obviously alive for a while after leaving the tent. They built a fire and presumably dug out the den. It appears that they did not die all at once and that the longest surviving took the clothing of the Yuris, who died first. Why would the attackers let them do that?
They wanted to make ti appear as natural as possible, they send them out in the cold with no clothes hoping the cold weather solves their problem only the group showed they were more resilient and the attackers had to resort to other means.
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- The attackers would surely have a use for the food and equipment belonging to the group, but it was left untouched in the tent. Why?
Because then it becomes a very obvious murder, if all of their food, equipment, money and watches were missing it becomes an obvious case of murder.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 04:17:47 PM

+ Also a mention that money was found in the snow near the cedar (Atmanaki , sheet 216) why would a hiker keep 8 rubles in a pocket, and throw it away before dying? Except if you beg your murderer to accept money for life?
Maybe using the money to start a fire.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on June 18, 2020, 04:24:39 PM


But why would any body contemplating Murder wait until the Dyatlov Group were in such an exposed location where erasing evidence would be more difficult,etc. Plenty of remote more likely places to commit Murder while on the way to the Mountain that the Dyatlov Group were heading for.

Because they were stripped of their clothes, it was dark and they were in an exposed location. If they attacked while the group is on the move there would always be the chance one or more of them escape, and since they would be on skies and fully clothed they would have a chance to get to civilization. There is also the fact that they wanted them to appear to die of natural causes which required time, on a trail there is always the chance that someone would come across them while the murder was ongoing and either be witnesses or more bodies to worry about. With the tent they could do a recce around the surrounding area to make sure no one was there. Once the deed was done, some of the killers would be placed in advanced position to warn of more people coming and the others would be covering their tracks.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: janeeyre2150 on June 19, 2020, 01:29:05 AM
In my country, after the communists came, many people/former WW2 soldiers went in the mountains forming anti-communist resistance groups(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement)).
One event has come to my mind recently related to one resistance group, and the events are somehow similar:

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The death of the undercover tourists
September 2, 1950. Toma Arnăuţoiu, Petre Arnăuţoiu, Constantin Jubleanu and Ion Marinescu meet with tourists Aurel Bârsan, Băş Ghervase, Neniu Dumitru, Venter Teodor and Maria Tiron on Gălăşescu Mountain. Educate to be circumspect with any unknown, the four interogate the to the strangers until they revealed them. Tourists were undercover Security Agents. Aurel Barsan is the only one left alive.
https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti (https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti)

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On September 2, 1950, the terrorists Arnauţoiu Toma, Arnăuţoiu Petre, Marinescu Ion and Jubleanu Constantin attacked with arms a group of people on the tourist route Sîmbăta-Moldoveanu, at the point named Piscul Călăşescului, bestially murdering four people and namely: security platoon Băiş Ghervase, Neniu Petre, worker, PCR member, engineer Venţer Teodor and student Tiron Maria. After they murdered them, the terrorists robbed them of the objects they had on them, stripped them and then run, hiding at one of the hut they had in the mountains. Student Tiron Maria, being only injured, was eventually shot dead with bullets in her heart and her head. "
Secret Service Report - https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html (https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html)


I'm not familiar with the resistance groups in Russia in the '50's, but what if Dyatlov Group met, let's say, a group of people that was "not happy" about it's location made public/reported to the authorities and this group acted more intelligent than the Romanian resistance group from the example above, leaving no traces.

The people forming this group was trained to live in the mountains and to leave no traces in order not to be found by the authorities, that's why we have no footprints other than the tourist's footprints. Well, maybe they have missed one footprint : (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-steps-04.jpg)

They find the hikers, they cut the tent and order them to come out and to go in the cedar area (this zone was protected from the wind, so it was easier to interogate te students there). Tent cut from inside? Maybe not. A I read, the first search team made itself some cuts in the tent and I didn't find in the report anything about this... so maybe the report is wrong. Or maybe the hikers have made also some cuts in order co come out quicker.

Three hikers didn't made it until the cedar, they try to fight the members of the resistance group, they are beaten and left in the snow where they die.
The rest of the hikers are "interrogated" under the cedar : tho of them are stripped by their clothes in order for the others to say if they are secret service agents. The two stripped hikers die.
After this they applied another torture : submerging the bodies in freezing water/cutting tongue / beating. After all the hikers show no signs of life, they cover their own traces leave.

Radiations? Well, the bomb or whatever it was exploded in the area on 17 February. So the contamination could have been made after the death of the hikers.

What Country are you from  ?   I think as many others would say this particular Theory is another variation on the theme of Murder. And the Dyatlov Group appear to be good Communists, etc. The area that they traveled through has no records of anti communist activity.

"The area that they traveled through has no records of anti communist activity."

Gosh, aren't u just dense, they basically said that Gulag prisons are just nearby the area where the hikers have been. That alone is a potential factor. What's your take on the case anyhow? I bet yours are the ridiculous avalanche and bigfoot theories
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: janeeyre2150 on June 19, 2020, 01:33:12 AM
Very interesting.

Also an aspect in which I suspect Russians are unwilling to discuss regarding this matter.

Very true. That's why I think this case will just never be solved, unless the hikers themselves rise up from their graves and tell what happened to them that night. And all of us are going to just speculate and wonder whatever happened to them that night until we all die.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on June 22, 2020, 02:15:02 PM


...............
The snow looks about 2 foot deep. The figure is leaning forwards. That would mean the figure is probably well over 6 foot tall.

Personally I am unable to estimate the size of the figure N° 17.

 "6 foot tall" = 183 cm 
According to the autopsy report Tibo is : "174 cm in length".

( https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=23.0 ---> Sheet 352 )

The difference between 183 cm and 174 cm is small. Tibo or not Tibo? Doubt remains.

Once again, it is impossible to reach a firm conclusion  !


Well the figure in the photo looks OVER 6 FOOT TALL.  Maybe  6 foot 2 inches.   Iam about that tall.  Add about 1 or 2 foot for the snow and that can not be one of the Dyatlov Group.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on June 23, 2020, 11:09:07 PM
Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

Yes, it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo. Why?
- The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,
- on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,
- Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"
- white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,
- why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.

The snow looks about 2 foot deep. The figure is leaning forwards. That would mean the figure is probably well over 6 foot tall.
Snow looks to be no more than 1 1/2 feet deep, right at knee level for the person. Which would make him ~6 feet tall +/- a few inches. Dead giveaway is the holster on the left hip.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: alecsandros on June 25, 2020, 03:30:34 AM
Snow looks to be no more than 1 1/2 feet deep, right at knee level for the person. Which would make him ~6 feet tall +/- a few inches. Dead giveaway is the holster on the left hip.
To the best of my knowledge, Thibeaux was about 175cm in height (5 feet 8 inches). The silhouette appears to be having snow below it's knees, therefore it is taller then 190cm IMHO.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on June 27, 2020, 05:39:16 PM
Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

Yes, it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo. Why?
- The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,
- on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,
- Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"
- white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,
- why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.

The snow looks about 2 foot deep. The figure is leaning forwards. That would mean the figure is probably well over 6 foot tall.
Snow looks to be no more than 1 1/2 feet deep, right at knee level for the person. Which would make him ~6 feet tall +/- a few inches. Dead giveaway is the holster on the left hip.

But the figure looks to be about 6 foot from the snowline to the  top of the head. So adding another foot at least, still gives you 7 foot.  Meaning that that can not be one of the Dyatlov Group. Unless the figure is only about 5 foot from the snowline to the top of the head  !  ?  But it doesnt look like 5 foot to me.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on June 30, 2020, 11:37:55 PM
To the best of my knowledge, Thibeaux was about 175cm in height (5 feet 8 inches). The silhouette appears to be having snow below it's knees, therefore it is taller then 190cm IMHO.

His left leg looks to be bent, so I will assume that is the knee level which would put the right leg in knee deep snow and left leg which is in the tracks of the skis at about ankle deep to slightly above ankle.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on June 30, 2020, 11:46:57 PM
But the figure looks to be about 6 foot from the snowline to the  top of the head. So adding another foot at least, still gives you 7 foot.  Meaning that that can not be one of the Dyatlov Group. Unless the figure is only about 5 foot from the snowline to the top of the head  !  ?  But it doesnt look like 5 foot to me.
We can see where the knee is, proportionally it looks like a human. From the knee down it looks to be about an 18-20 inch height and it doesn't look like there are another 72+ inches above the knee for it to indicate anything other than human.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: sarapuk on July 01, 2020, 04:42:34 AM
But the figure looks to be about 6 foot from the snowline to the  top of the head. So adding another foot at least, still gives you 7 foot.  Meaning that that can not be one of the Dyatlov Group. Unless the figure is only about 5 foot from the snowline to the top of the head  !  ?  But it doesnt look like 5 foot to me.
We can see where the knee is, proportionally it looks like a human. From the knee down it looks to be about an 18-20 inch height and it doesn't look like there are another 72+ inches above the knee for it to indicate anything other than human.

Well I suppose its got to be an educated guess that any of us make, because we dont have the benefit of being there at that exact location. And of course we dont know exactly where or when that photo was taken.
Title: Re: Resistance group maybe?
Post by: Georgi on July 01, 2020, 10:09:07 PM


Well I suppose its got to be an educated guess that any of us make, because we dont have the benefit of being there at that exact location. And of course we dont know exactly where or when that photo was taken.

It could very well have been a joke picture taken during a break as "proof" of the yeti, or it could have been someone coming back from a bathroom break. Chances are overwhelmingly in favour of it being a human, whether someone following them or this was one of the members of the group.