Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Altercation on the pass => Topic started by: Teddy on April 08, 2019, 10:51:59 PM

Title: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Teddy on April 08, 2019, 10:51:59 PM
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-Eduard-Viktorovich-Tumanov.jpg)
Well known pathologist involved with Dyatlov case, Eduard Tumanov, who is participant in the current expedition with the prosecutor's office, is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them. Judging from the official autopsy records, Dyatlov group members have injuries sustained perhaps a day or two before the onset of death. We are talking abrasions and bruises, common for injuries from blunt objects: a fist, a branch, any solid blunt object. On the face and hands there are abrasions covered with a crust, bruises turning green. This indicates that the duration of the injury is greater than those minutes, hours that could have occurred before their deaths. And they could be sustained in a fight, or in some other events. Most likely, the group came into conflict with someone in the area of the pass.

Here is a closer look at the injuries on Krivonischenko, who was found together with Doroshenko near an extinct fire under cedar. The lower left half of the pants is missing to the level of the knee joint. The edges of the underpants fabric at the edges are uneven with the charring of the fabric. It turns out that the lower left half of the pants burned on the leg. Why and how could this happen?

Further multiple abrasions on the body. The site of sedimentation in the center of the frontal region. In the left temporal region there are two abrasions of red-brown color. The area from the right temple to the nape has an internal hemorrhage. And this suggests a strong blow or blows to the temporal and rear region of the head. But for some reason, the expert does not describe external damage to the right temporal region. And this is amazing. There should be a visible bruise.

Perhaps a few punches with a fist, or a hard blunt object. And here is another very interesting detail. The rear of the right hand in Krivonischenko, as the expert wrote, is swollen. In the area of the metacarpophalangeal joints (knuckles), the soft tissues are whitish-gray in color, the fingers are brown-violet. On the back of these fingers minor skin abrasions. This picture is likely to indicate a fight. Krivonischenko was beaten on the head and he hit his right fist. We read further: on the middle phalanx of the third finger, the defect of the epidermis, in shape and size coincides with that found in the oral cavity. It turns out that Krivonischenko bit off a piece of skin from his finger. Krivonischenko could have been beaten and tortured. Probably, he couldn't stand the pain so he bit off his skin. And here's another mystery. On the middle phalanx of the fourth, fifth fingers skin wound, tight to the touch. With charring. Again, it is not clear what kind of skin wound? An expert describes a burn? But if he described the burn, he would have to write what form he was and there are many more details. And here it is just like a wound, and with charring.

Tumanov's opinion is that all bodies should be exhumed and subjected to a new full autopsy for missed or omitted on purpose details. xHe is pointing at the following discrepancies and violations when the bodies were first protocoled:
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Monika on April 08, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
This theory has weak points.

     As „the location of rigor mortis spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their discover“
 - I think the bodies were turned after death so that others could make sure if they were really dead and also be able to take their clothes.

       „Dyatlov group members have injuries sustained perhaps a day or two before the onset of death“
- If they had a fight before, they would certainly have wrote about it in their diary. On the contrary, it is evident from the diary as well as photos that a good friendship ruled there.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: gypsy on April 09, 2019, 12:02:24 AM
- If they had a fight before, they would certainly have wrote about it in their diary. On the contrary, it is evident from the diary as well as photos that a good friendship ruled there.

The absence of evidence of the fight in the diary is not an evidence that the fight did not happen. We should stick to evidence when there is inconsistency with written or spoken statements. Let's wait for further details.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 09, 2019, 09:17:36 AM
From memory it was clear (bits of clothing and even flesh?) that someone had fallen down the cedar quite badly. Given Yuri K's burns he is the obvious candidate for falling, becoming concussed on landing for long enough to burn his hands or legs. Else it was something more "exotic".
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Angel1 on April 15, 2019, 02:33:41 PM
I agree with the female Russian criminologist who believes it was murder.  The nature of the injuries indicate a fight.  But then it becomes by whom?  I think the autopsy reports were purposefully edited.  Until you get the true complete one the speculation will be never ending.  That foot long bruise on Zina's side.  Who know really when they died?  Ratikin's book isn't in English and the translations seem very wordy and meandering.  I wish there was a concise interview with him. 
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 15, 2019, 04:42:42 PM
I managed to read Rakitins book with google translate and ir was almost fine. First part of the book where he describes the autopsies and families and background of the hikers is really good and points out at interesting facts.
Second part in opinion is more like a fiction novel about spies. There are too many speculations and details that are impossible to be assumed. He could have written only that he thinks it was a controled delivery gone wrong . But maybe he wanted to make the book longer and included that long story of action battle and helicopters and all.
Anyway his way of thinking and making observations was very logical so I liked his theory and the way he cobcludes it.
Other author I liked is Svetlana Oss, again murder theory but supposibg that Khanty did it. Again strogest arguments are the autopsies.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 15, 2019, 09:21:01 PM
Rakitin.   

Some people in the US blame Russia for everything, some people in Russia blame the US for everything.   
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 16, 2019, 09:22:10 AM
They seem to have attempted the original plan the day before of going through the actual pass but failed due to conditions. From memory a diary talks of being above the tree line. The failure is understandable as they were curiously poorly equipped for higher ground, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So it's plausible that they picked up some scratches in the attempt before giving up, descending and shedding weight with the labaz.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Clacon on April 16, 2019, 09:35:40 AM
Are we assuming because there are no diary entries passed the 31st that they must have died on the 1st or 2nd?

I mean, what if they died later (not too much later, just later enough that the bruising and wounds scabbing can be accounted for) but were too incapacitated to write in their diaries because they were taken hostage or were fighting to survive?

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: tekumze on April 16, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
All Clacon questions are also my interest. And I agree with all his thoughts. So I do not have anything to add here. In order to answer these questions we need a new autopsy.
Mr. Tuman is a real person to re-conduct an autopsy of all corpses. Then the image of the case would be much clearer. But will this happen? This is the main question?
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sarapuk on April 16, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
Injuries and damage to clothing could also have been caused by some kind of ELECTRICAL EVENT.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Star man on May 01, 2019, 03:23:43 PM
The altercation scenario fits with simple credible explanation.  It seems to me that the group were trying to get away from someone?  If they were running and hiding from someone then it's unlikely that the two Yuris would have lit a fire.  So who lit it?  The Yuris look like they claimed the cedar - maybe to stay out of reach of someone.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 01, 2019, 07:27:47 PM
What if.....

Since there were other university student groups in the general area, they saw a fire in the woods from the tent and went to say hello to their buddies.  BAD IDEA
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Clacon on May 02, 2019, 02:35:45 PM
I mean, if Igor was the one who was the threat, then maybe he died before the Yuri's started the fire....and....they couldn't find their way back to the tent??

But why not TRY to go back to the tent anyways to get the ice ax or clothes or whatever?

And I think they climbed the tree to try to find the tent, not because someone was after them (just sounds comical to me....you would only climb a tree to get away from something that couldn't climb a tree, wouldn't you?)
But...if Igor tried to climb the tree, he would have been kicked in the face by the Yuris (may be evidence of this, but maybe more severe than his reported injuries….unless he was going to burn them with a log from the fire that he would have had to wait a while to get lit....I don't know....they sat up in that tree all that time?? Waiting for Igor to get frozen stuff to burn while he was threatening to burn them out of the tree once he gets a log lit to poke them with?? I don't think this is very plausible....also how to explain the Yuri D's cinged hair? 

…..So the threat must have stayed at the tent....

Or Igor, Rustem and Zina were at the tent a while before coming down the slope and eventually perishing due to them fighting up at the tent???

…...Or the Yuris started the fire and then went up the tree when they heard someone approaching???


HEEEELLPPPPP!!!! BRAIN HURTY REAL BAD GOING DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 02, 2019, 07:26:25 PM
What proof is there that any of the 9 started the fire?
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM
To complement Eduard Tumanov's ideas, here is something to read :

•••   Summary : (February 3, 2020)
Assumption of  fatal altercations  caused by one mistake with a test of a noxious military psychostimulant.
   I thank Teddy for gathering all these informations about DPI (Dyatlov Pass Incident) and also the many others contributors for their considerations which are both informative and extensive.
So in my humble opinion it is the dramatic result of a military test of Soviet Army or KGB...
But not an attempt to experiment with a new weapon such as bomb, rocket, missile, explosive, toxic gas, spreading radioactive products or others conventional processes of the same kind !
   It was the design office in charge of research in pharmacology (chemistry and pharmacy) of the Soviet army or KGB that took advantage of the expedition of this group of trained hikers to experiment with the effects of a new and unknown psycho-stimulant, apparently promising and very effective, in real life conditions.
Against all odds, the result of this seemling harmless experiment turned out to be a shameful disaster: precisely two violent hand-to-hand fights in the cold that resulted in these nine mysterious deaths.
   Then the Soviet authorities tried, as best as they could, to hide this ridiculous and unglamorous failure.
(Note that   in all countries officials are used to concealing their mistakes and failures). 

•••   Introduction :
   After reading a significant part of the many interesting opinions and theories on the Dyatlovpass.com website, I note that no satisfactory explanation has been found so far (5 February 2020).
   I propose my own explanation, my working hypothesis.
Yes ! It is a pure speculation as the Global Moderator Loose}{Cannon and others...(like Per Inge Oestmoen) will say. But I think it is pure speculation that can explain everything. (i.e. my reconstruction is able to give a rational explanation to the totality of what is exposed on this website).

My arguments (which unfortunately are long) are contained in 5 chapters, which should be read in order.
   - Chapters 1 and 2  *  ** -->  Are not irrelevant, despite appearances. They contain some general informations that are useful for understanding what happens next.
All the facts are correct unless mistaken and play a role, however the reader in a hurry will be able to read quickly.
   - In chapters 3 et 4 *** **** --> On the contrary, in order to make the reading easier and more lively I have added some small imaginary precisions which are obviously unverifiable but which are simply plausible. (In other words, I present my theory in a romanticized form).
But it is the broad outline of the explanation that counts, not the unimportant details.
   - Chapter 5 --> ***** Consists of unfinished add-ons. It could be entitled : how my mental mechanisms were channeled by psychological and historical intuition...


•••   Preliminary warning :
   I apologize for my clumsy writing and my many mistakes in the English language.
This is an overview that would need to be further developed by searching for additional references. One difficulty is that some informations are still considered to be military secrets of USSR. (Paradoxically, interesting material on USSR military researches could perhaps be found on US political intelligence websites - but I did not search).
• Obviously the reader will have to mentally add almost everywhere : "In my opinion...it is likely that......to set the ideas this could be for example...."
Now I am awaiting and hoping for objections and rectifications and I am preparing to answer them....


     
*  Chapter 1  *

   To convince the reader that in 1959 there were certainly research programs on psychostimulants in the USSR simply because the use of psychostimulant medications is part of the means available to a modern army.
    During the period of Khrushchev's thaw, it was a period of peaceful coexistence but also of cold war with intense military research for the development of all kinds of weapons.

Note: To explain this great militarization, Marcel Conche (French philosopher) - has long since forcefully reminded us that a large part of the "defects" of the USSR were "due to the capitalist encirclement and to the hallucinating and constant hostility that the capitalist countries concretely manifested to it from the start, against what presented itself as communism". They will have forced it, for example, to considerably develop its military industry to the detriment of a socially useful economy.

* {1}.§-1-) *
   There were military studies and achievements that cannot be camouflaged (or that want to be shown because they are impressive) and that are therefore known.  Some examples of success stories in this area up to 1959 :
 - The R-7 Semiorka space launcher sent out the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, on October 4, 1957. (Dazzling demonstration of the USSR's superiority in the space field);
 - The explosion of a lithium 6 deuteride H-bomb, therefore militarizable, code-named RDS-37, took place on November 22, 1954;
 - The R-12 Dvina  SS-4 Sandal, was the first Soviet strategic missile using storable propellants and a completely autonomous inertial guidance system;
 - The air force had some very effective : MiG 15, MiG 17, MiG 21 Fishbed, supersonic fighters jets;
 - The increase of the range of action thanks to in-flight refuelling by the Tupolev Tu-16Z Badger powered by the competitive Toumanski R-11-300 turbojets;
 - The T54 and T55 tanks were accepted for service in the Soviet Army by the decree of the Ministry of Defense on May 24, 1958, under the name Objekt 155;
 - Soviets” research and development had advanced to such a degree that they were able to build nuclear powered (lead-bismuth coolant) submarines made of light-weight titanium alloy that surpassed all others in speed and diving depth.. (Project 705 Alpha Class, proposed in 1957 by A.B.Petrov and M.G.Rusanov);
 - .......etc.

* {1}.§-2-) *
   But there were also developments that only required simple and (relatively) inexpensive installations and which, as a result, could easily remain secret. The corresponding governement programs have remained secret or are not declassified until now.
Some informations about these works originates mainly from indirect sources, such as interviews of participating persons - such as Kanatzhan Alibekov(1950-), solitary scientific and popular publications, reports (published in USA !) of "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention".
   In this category you can put all kinds of projects and improvements that could take the opponents by surprise. This includes, but is not limited to, biological (BW) and chemical (CW) weapons of mass destruction,  which are terrifying but delicate and difficult to use in practice.
   Most analyts condemn the use of biological(BW) and chemical weapons (CW) during wartime as a war crime (or crime against humanity if widespread) because they kill civilians. In addition, their use is prohibited by international agreements.

  /1/ * BW : Biological warfare agents using  bacteriological strains highly pathogenic and contagious
(Variola major:smallpox, Bacillus anthracis:anthrax, Rickettsia prowazekii:exanthematic thyphus, Yersinia pestis:plague, Francisella tularensis:tularaemia,...) and "mid spectrum agents" :toxins, biotoxins and others violent poisons(botulinum toxin, ricin,....).
   The Soviet Union began a biological weapons program in the 1920s. During the Second World War, Joseph Stalin was forced to move his biological warfare (BW) facilities out of the way of the advancing German forces.
At the conclusion of the war, Soviet specialists took advantage of the results of the Japanese unit 731 ---> Shiro Ishii (1892-1959) and those of the German Posen Institute ---> Kurt Blome (1894-1969).
   Then the Soviet BW effort became a huge program, comprising various institutions under different ministries along with commercial facilities (collectively known as Biopreparat after 1973. On 2 April 1979, spores of anthrax were accidentally released from the military compound 19a near the closed city of Sverdlovsk).

  /2/ * CW : Chemical weapons : Lethal agents (and also less-lethal weapons and harassing agents).
Chemical warfare (CW) involves using the toxic properties of chemical substances as weapons.
 - Combat gases or toxic substances sometimes dispersed by aerozilisation). For instances : Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB), Soman (GD), Cyclosarin, Edemo(VM), venomous agent X....
Rather usable by KGB (cf. the book: Vil Sultanovich Mirzayanov, "an insider's chronicle of the russian chemical weapons program").
 - Poisons and very toxic products : dioxines, ricine, Novichok agent, thallium, alpha-amanitin...etc.
During the period of Khrushchev's thaw it was Vladimir Naumov who led the research on poisons in the "laboratory 12".

* {1}.§-3-) * 
There are also others researches and developments in the military field that are not morally reprehensible.
For the leaders of a country, there is one obvious truth :
Tactical superiority depends on the weapons available but also on the fighting qualities of the men who use them.

In addition to physical strength and endurance, combat requires mental agility and focus. Situational awareness, sound decision-making and rapid responses all depend on strong cognition.
   It must also be anticipated that military operations will inevitably disrupt sleep and force soldiers to spend long periods of time without sleep, when lack of sleep is a major detriment to their cognitive functioning.

   Systematic combat training requires a great deal of time, which in actual historical circumstances is rarely possible.
The economic aspects of advanced military training cannot be overlooked. Thus, for example, it is accepted in military staffs that a aircraft pilot is more difficult to replace than the aircraft itself.

For the responsible leaders of a country there is therefore an obvious consequence :
"Soldier enhancements, through biological augmentation of human capabilities, reduces warfighter risk by providing tactical advantages over the enemy“

   Here you have to differentiate between competitive sports and situations where it is better to succeed and live.
In the field of competitive sports doping is cheating and must be punished.
   On the contrary, the missions and duties of military leaders during a war are to defeat the enemies while limiting the human losses of its own troops.
All available means to improve the efficiency and performance of soldiers must be used.
Note : Military psycho-stimulants should not be confused with other psychoactive brain-disrupting chemicals, such as LSD, which could even be used in peacetime for law enforcement against demonstrators and would therefore fall into the category of non-lethal weapons.

But military personnel are often discreet about various uses of psychostimulants in their own armed forces, which will be discussed in Chapter 2. In the public realm of civilian activities here are three significant examples that are quite well known :

The story is based on the testimonies of two men who probably stayed alive thanks to the Pervitin.
 - The mountaineer Hermann Buhl (1924-1957) succeeded (solo and without oxygen) on July 3, 1953 the first ascent of Nanga-Parbat (8126 m) in 41 hours: (high dose of pervitin during the return trip).
 - Doctor Peter Döbler (1940-) illegally escaped from the GDR on 25 July 1971 by swimming 48 km in 24 hours. He set out from Kühlungsborn in the direction of the island of Fehmarn (1 pervitin pill every 4 hours).
 
More recently, in 2016, Bertrand Piccard and André Borschberg flew around the world with the "Solar Impulse 2" (single-seater solar airplane), in 17 stages. This meant that the pilot had to remain vigilant for several days. Therefore they openly declared:
"However, one does not want to do without chemical aids completely. If nothing else helps at the end of a flight, pilots will be able to take stimulant : specifically, caffeine capsules, amphetamines and the drug Modafinil".


     
**   Chapter 2   **


     To convince the reader that Dyatlov's hike had been the subject of a trial of a new (and unknown) military psychostimulant, ( here called the X-stimulant).
** {2}.§-1-) **
Historical reminders.
Military use of psychostimulants or also called if you want performance-enhancing substances (or drug) to combat fatigue, improve endurance, and give warrior zeal, dates back many centuries.

  /1/ ** The reader can refer for example to these recent books :
  /2/ ** During the Second World War various amphetamine-like substances were consumed.
In the Wehrmacht Pervitin (methamphetamine: C10 H16 N) were routinely prescribed.
The Japanes troops used  Philoponor, also known as Hiropin (methamphetamine + green tea powder ?).
British soldiers were often given Benzedrine (amphetamine: C9 H15 N), while American forces took their Go-pills.

  /3/ ** According to the opinions of military historians Pervitin showed its effectiveness during the short campaigns in Poland (35 days 1939) and France (42 days 1940) in the sense that the battle groups supplied with pervitin proved to be superior.
On the contrary, after the first months of the Great Patriotic War (22 June 1941 - 9 May 1945) it is accepted that the repercussions of pharmaceutical stimulation weakened and rendered ineffective a lot German soldiers.
   As a result, in November 1944, pharmacologist Gerhard Orzechowski(1902-1977) proposed the  D-IX (cocaïne:5 mg + pervitin:3 mg + eudokal:5mg), a blend which seems to be more efficient than Pervitin.

  /4/ ** It appears that, until 1946, the only psychostimulant used by the Red Army was simply vodka (to this we can perhaps add a tobacco called  makhorka).

** {2}.§-2-) **
Retardation in the availability of efficient psycostimulants until 1945 and then research and development efforts in the Soviet Army and the KGB.
 /1/ ** The advantage of vodka is that it is readily available and inexpensive.
But for military use vodka is a rather mediocre stimulant.
  - duration of action too short (perhaps less than 4 hours);
  - tends to cause a poor assessment of the tactical situation;
  - decreases accuracy of aim and effectiveness of fire.

  /2/ ** The Second World War and the Great Patriotic War had shown Soviet leaders that psychoactives substances could be very useful in military employment.
So they could reasonably think that the USSR was ahead in the race to conquer space but that in the area of soldiers's enhancement the Soviet Union had fallen far behind the West.

  /3/ ** After the victory in 1945, it is certain that the Soviets took measures (of which little is known because they remained secret) to compensate for their backwardness in the field of military psychotechnology.
   It is possible that, under the impetus of pharmacologist and toxicologist Nikolai Vasilyevich Lazarev (1895-1974), the military use of natural ingredients was first considered.
Natural resources such as Rhodiola rosea (a yellow-flowered plant native to snowy Arctic regions), Rhaponticum carthamoides, Schisandra chinensis, Aralia manchurica, Asian ginseng also known as Panax ginseng .
And also the mushroom Amanita muscaria (fly agaric or fly amanita) often used by Siberian shamans as a method to reach a state of trance.

  /4/ ** But the Soviets, perfectly aware at that time of the progress of pharmacochemistry, also undertook the study and production by chemical synthesis of a multitude of much more active and promising substances. It is known, for example, that by 1951, U.S. intelligence reports revealed that the Soviets had purchased 50 millions doses of LSD from Sandoz.

Note : In 2020 some Western armies officially use slowrelease caffeine(C8 H10 N4 O2) and modafinil(C15 H15 N O2 S) and sometimes even cocaine(C17 H21 N O4) and methylamphetamine(C10 H15 N) with caution.

** {2}.§-3-) ** 
Some general concepts about psychoactive substances and psychostimulants from a military viewpoint.
  /1/ ** There are very many psychoactive substances extracted from plants and there are even more that are obtained by chemical synthesis. In addition blends of substances can often have entirely different effects (mitigation or enhancement).
With the right dose the short-term effects on the brain and physiology are powerful and irresistible.

Note : In 2020 the understanding of the acute and chronic effects of psychoactive substances on the brain has expanded greatly in recent years.
Whith the help of neuroimaging techniques (Magnetic Resonance, Imaging Positron emission tomography, Single photon emission computed tomography,  Electroencephalography...) one begins to acquire a substantial molecular and cellular fingerprint of the extensive changes in neuronal systems.

 Paracelsus (1493-1541) wrote an exact and profound truth, "Dose makes the poison." Some of these compounds are beneficial when consumed in small amounts, but harmful or deadly in higher doses.
To be effective, the dose of a given psychosactive blend must be within a certain narrow "range": below the low limit there is no effect and above it is a toxic or fatal overdose.
For the majority of substances the appropriate dose is small, less than a gram (0.001mg-0,003 mg for LSD) and the correct dosage therefore requires care.

  /2/  ** Need for testing on humans under real conditions.
The effects of a psychostimulant are difficult to predict because they vary according to the circumstances and the sensitivity and mental state of the person taking it.
In order to become usable and operational, all new substances must be tested under real-life conditions.

  /3/ ** Systematic and complete military training is long, expensive and not always possible in real historical circumstances.
The use of psychostimulants by temporarily (for a several hours or a few days) improving the physical resistance (to lack of sleep, cold, fatigue, etc.) and mental performances of the warriors (absence of fear, concentration, lucidity, rapidity of reactions and decisions, etc.) increases the chances of victory in high intensity fights.

  /4/  ** The main disadvantage of any psychostimulant is its short duration of action.
  - Ingestion of a psychostimulant may lead to a short period of improved performances but will inevitably be followed by a period of weakening. In other words, it postpones the need for rest but does not eliminate the need for rest or sleep.

(It is somewhat analogous to a reservoir of vital energy that is normally used regularly and slowly. The psycostimulant is a large opening that allows you to spend all the contents quickly but afterwards there is nothing left).

  - However, despite this limitation, military psychostimulants are still of interest in certain conditions because the commandant sometimes has the possibility to foresee that intense and violent fights will be of short duration (1 to 3 days).
This is particularly true in the air force where the autonomy of aircraft generally limits flight times.

They are more suited to intense combat situations, which often happens in blitzkrieg circumstances but not in wars of attrition.

  /5/ ** Long-term effects
Like recreational drugs, military psychostimulants involve dangers that are well known.
There are risks of craving and whithdrawal that lead to physical fitness and mental health deterioration and cause social damages.
  - hypertension, cramps, fatigue, loss of consciousness, cardiovascular disease...
  - depression, anxiety, paranoia, mania, paranoid delusions, confusion...
  - violence, social precariousness, delinquency, marginalization...
Note: In 2020 it is expected (?) that staffs will reduce these dangers by controlling consumption and by caring for soldiers after use.

  /6/ ** Friendly fire incidents
By wanting to reinforce the speed of riposte and pugnacity but also the impulsiveness, psychostimulants also increase the risks of friendly fire.

** {2}.§-4-) **
Another, fortunately infrequent danger : An inappropriate substance or overdose can cause death or a transient pharmacopsychosis.
  /1/ ** Some psychoses (madness, dementia, delusions) imply the loss of the sense of reality, the abolition of discernment, the suppression of logical reasoning and it follows that if a murderer was suffering at the time of his crime from a psychic or neuropsychic disorder having abolished his discernment or the control of his acts, he is not responsible. (Besides this is frequently contested because it is difficult to know whether the psychosis of the murderer has really completely abolished his discernment).
  /2/ ** Joseph Capgras (1873-1950) is a psychiatrist who in 1923 accurately described the Capgras syndrome.
Patients suffering from this syndrome have the unshakeable conviction that their loved ones (relatives, friends...etc.) have been replaced by impostors, hostile and evil doubles who persecute them.
Totally unaware of their delusion, these patients are convinced that they are in great danger and often try to defend themselves by sudden and violent counterattacks against these duplicious(tracheous) and bloodthirsty impostors.

Note : Cases of Capgras syndrome (and others dangerous paranoid schizophrenics) need to be cared for by teams trained in violence management in special psychiatric hospitals with specifically secured facilities.

  /3/ ** Capgras syndrome is frequently associated with the diagnosis of schizophrenia. It can also appear in a more or less permanent way after a cranial trauma or after drug use.

** {2}.§-5-) **
The reader who has arrived so far will find the 3 assertions of this paragraph quite likely.
  /1/ ** In 1958, somewhere in the Soviet Union, there was a (hypothetical) AAA-laboratory which had prepared doses of a new psychostimulant substance, which by convention we shall call X-stimulant.
  /2/ ** The composition of the X-stimulant is completely unknown because it has remained a secret. However, in order to fix the ideas, we can imagine that it was a very active blend in the genre :*
Alpha-PVP(C15 H21 N O) + Cocaine(C17 H21 N O4) + Methamphetamine(C10 H15 N) + Phencyclidine(C17 H25 N) +...
  /3/ ** Naturally, those in charge of AAA-laboratory were in a hurry to carry out tests under real conditions to demonstrate the importance and interest of their works.

** {2}.§-6-) **
  /1/ ** Literally and figuratively the Ural Polytechnic Institute was located in the centre of a vast military-industrial complex that had grown as a result of the evacuation of many industries to the East of the Urals after the German aggression of 22 June 1941 ---> with closed towns where there was (is) a lot of secret military laboratories (nuclear, chemical, biological, ...etc.)
  /2/ ** Students and alumni of the UPI were part of the young scientific-technical intelligentsia that would help to place the USSR at the forefront of world progress, demonstrating the superiority of the socialist regime.
Relations between UPI staff and the managers of industrial enterprises or directors of research laboratories in the Sverdlovsk Region were therefore frequent and varied.
  /3/ ** The Dyatlov expedition was almost semi-official, since it had received permission or approval from the authorities.
When the AAA-laboratory learned of the Dyatlov expedition's schedule, it planned to use it to experiment with X-stimulant under very realistic conditions. It was a good opportunity to carry out a quick and free test of the X-stimulant on a group of 10 sportsmen and women moving independently in the snow for two weeks.

** {2}.§-6-) **
But there has been a mistake somewhere. That is what is reconstructed (or imagined, I concede) in chapters three and four.


     
***   Chapter 3   ***

   To convince the reader that a mistake somewhere has created a transient craziness among hikers - crisis of schizophrenic delusion in the form of Capgras syndrome.
Pressured by time a head of the military pharmacochemistry AAA-laboratory organizes a trial with the participation of Zolotaryov who is in charge of adding doses of X-stimulant in one of the meals of the hike.


*** {3}.§-1-) ***
  /1/ *** Zolotaryov has had a particular role (as shown in this line from the Dubinina diary on january 23rd) :
  "Zolotaryov, who came with us on the trek. At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."
On the day of their departure January 23, she wrote in her diary: "At first, no one wanted him in the group because he’s complete stranger, but then we got over it and he’s coming. We couldn’t just refuse to take him."
Everyone knew that the inclusion of this stranger in the group had been orchestrated by the local Communist Party Committee.
  /2/ ***  Zolotaryov - or another man who wanted impersonate Zolotaryov - (perhaps with the help or complicity of Kolevatov), had been commissioned by a secret design office of chemical synthesis of the Soviet Army(1946-1991) the or KGB(1954-1991) to experiment with a new unknown substance (called here the X-stimulant) under real conditions.
  /3/ *** Naturally Zolotaryov enthusiastically agreed to contribute to this seemingly innocuous essay because he was a good patriot and a helpful man.
Specifically, the head of this military design office (or secret research AAA-laboratory) gave Zolotaryov few doses of X-stimulant and explained that his mission would be to add these doses without saying so to avoid the placebo effect to a meal around the middle of the hike. He also entrusted Zolotaryov with a camera. Then Zolotaryov was to observe, photograph and write a report.
The head of this design office continued :
" we know that X-stimulant is powerful and very active, but nobody knows exactly what the effects of X-stimulant are. In any case the effects will disappear in less than 15 hours. In principle there is no danger. However, be on your guard as this can lead to agressive spirit and some hallucinations and delusions...
We trust you to restore the situation if it becomes delicate because we know that you overcame much more terrible situations during the Battle of Stalingrad ".
   
*** {3}.§-2-) *** 
So on the evening of February 1, once in the unheated tent that night, Zolotariov, believing that he was reducing the fatigue that was beginning to be felt in the group after several days of hiking in the snow - or believing brighten up the slightly gloomy mood, discreetly added few doses of X-stimulant to the meal portions.

*** {3}.§-3-) ***
But the chemists and pharmacists at the Soviet Army's research laboratory were wrong.
  /1/ ***  Perhaps simply the result of a weighing error committed by an incompetent laboratory technician who confused grams (g) with milligrams (mg) !
Paracelsus, wrote this exact and profound truth, "Dose makes the poison." : Some compounds are beneficial  when consumed in small amounts, but harmful, and lethal in higher doses.
  /2/ ***  Or the X-stimulant was dangerous anyway.
It was either an entirely new product obtained by chemical synthesis, or simply a mixture of already known drugs as for example a clever blend of Cocaïne + Méthamphétamine +  Phencyclidine  ...(?).(?).(?)
  /3/ *** It must also be understood that, in general, leaders in government spheres are under pressure to deliver qickly effective results.  Also in laboratories, research offices, very often researchers do not have enough time to carry out perfect checks. They are not careful enough and take risks...

*** {3}.§-4-) ***
The X-stimulant was intended to be militarily more effective than vodka, pure alcohol, methanol, hallucinogenic mushrooms, rye ergot... and it was to contribute to transform consumers into an augmented soldier or super warrior.
By organizing this test of ingestion of stimulant X, the pharmacochemists of the AAA-laboratory thought they had succeeded in :
  - eliminate fear and increase offensive spirit, initiative, tactical discernment;
  - improve physical strength, speed, determination;
  - make them insensitive to cold, fatigue and lack of sleep.

*** {3}.§-5-) ***
Obviously the pharmacochemists in the AAA-laboratory can be suspected of having made a serious misunderstanding in the composition of the X-stimulant, but this may be a dosage error.

Anyway, some of the nine hikers were subjected to an acute delusional burst typical of a transient Capras syndrome.
The absurd, savage and aggressive behaviour on the part of intelligent, rational and peaceful people is explained because they were overwhelmed by hallucinations and delusions caused by a powerful, noxious and harmful chemical compound.

It is also reasonable to assume that the disruption of brains' functioning had abolished the sensation of coldness. Thus the contact of cold snow was felt like that of warm sand or burning ash.

*** {3}.§-6-) ***
Deadly altercation on the pass evening february 1 and night morning february 2.
   The 9 hikers slaughtered each other, first with their fists, then using large dead branches of birch  blunt objects . They were all seriously wounded, and then the intense cold quickly ended them.

In addition to the knives left in the tent, there were certainly others as Vietnamka thinks (post 65 - Murdered / Re: Murder Indead « on: May 10, 2018, 11:52:30 AM » ):"I'm pretty sure zolotarev had his own knife ...."
Were the knives folding (pen knives)? I do not know. But the knives were not, or could not be, used as a bladed weapon but to quickly prune dead branches picked up from the ground and thus transform them into excellent bludgeons (typically of lengths between 0.8 m and 1.4 m, weight between 1 kg and 4 kg).

Handled energetically with both hands like an axe, from top to bottom, the destructive power of a good bludgeon is tremendous.
There is no difficulty in shattering human skulls and explaining the broken ribs !


 
****   Chapter 4   ****

   A plausible reconstruction of the 2 hand-to-hand fights that took place, during the night of February 1 to 2, 1959, under the influence of the Capgras syndrome caused by the X-stimulant.

It is clear that we can distinguish 3 groups and to abbreviate my text I use the notation below:
   {2KD} : Krivonischenko + Doroshenko.
  {3DSK} : Dyatlov + Slobodin + Kolmogorova.
{4ZKTBD} : Zolotaryov + Kolevatov + Thibeaux-Brignolle  + Dubinina.
 
**** {4}.§-1-) ****
First part of the day on 1 February :
Indeed Dyatlov made a small mistake on the planned route (In the afternoon he headed up the hill a little too far to the left), but it is not important.

   Dyatlov made a wise and good decision by stopping around 5pm, without losing altitude (rather than continuing randomly into the night, remember that all the 9 were perhaps little tired and  losted).
The next day, February 2, Dyatlov expected to easily find the normal path when it was daylight.
He was right to think that his tent, even far from the trees of the forest, would provide sufficient shelter.
So at 5 pm the tent is up and everyone can take shelter inside. So far everything is going normally. Then there is nothing to worry about!

**** {4}.§-2-) ****
   Then, as indicated by the design office, it was the right time to test the X-stimulant which was discreetly added by Zolotaryov in the common meal.
By chance or by the will of Zolotaryov, the {3DSK} ingests a high dose of X-stimulant, the {2KD} a low dose of X-stimulant and the {4ZKTBD} absorb nothing.

The strange atmosphere in the solitude of the winter desert, the night, the cold, the wind, the irregular noise caused by snow gusts favoured the action of the powerful X-stimulant too strongly dosed, which will completely disrupt for several hours the functioning of the brains of the {3DSK}.

The wind was strong and the tent canvas vibrated and slammed violently and loudly.
   So in the begining of hallucination and delirium the {3DSK} believed that they are attacked by several dangerous and bloodthirsty demons or yetis.
Thinking they are defending themselves, more and more agitated although still lying down, in earlier delirium, using a knife they cut the canvas of the tent above them without a very reasonable plan. (I insist: these stab wounds were completely absurd and useless acts).

**** {4}.§-3-) ****
So at this point Zolotaryov thought "The effect is less good than expected, it is better to be cautious".
    Therefore he said to the others aloud:
"I put a drug in the meal tonight which makes them crazy and aggressive, let us get dressed and leave, in 12 hours they will be back normal and we will come back. For the moment follow me".
   So the {4ZKTBD} went out without any undue haste and chose a well hidden place hard to find; then there they built the den.
In accordance with his mission, Zolotaryov did not forget to take a notebook and the camera he had been entrusted with.
   While {2KD} didn't understand that bizarre and incomprehensible advice. They were doubtfull or are too asleep and remain lying down.

**** {4}.§-4-) ****
But shortly after, the overwhelming effects of the X-stimulant were increasing. The overexcited brains of the {3DSK} were functioning absurdly, without control or reasoning. Terrifying early childhood nightmares returned, filling their fields of consciousness.

It was an outburst of transient schizophrenic delirium in the form of Capgras syndrome due to this involuntary ingestion of a potent toxic chemical.

   So the {3DSK} see lying next to them two dangerous and bloodthirsty daemons, let call them yetis ( in fact it was{2KD} sleeping). Then they attacked (indeed the best defense is the attack) and they started to knock still clumsily because their minds were still a little foggy.
The {2KD} were forced to run away in a hurry without having time to get dressed enough. And also they were reluctant to hit their three comrades and friends.

   Thinking they were far enough away from theirs delirious comrades (i.e.the {3DSK}), who remained in the tent, the {2KD} started a fire.
With a large fire it would have been possible to survive during 15 hours by continuously dancing around it, as close to the fire as possible so as not to get too cold, yet not too close to avoid the real burns. The greatest difficulty would have been to quickly find enough firewood that was not too damp.

**** {4}.§-5-) ****
 In 1945 the {3DSK} were 8 or 9 years old and their childhoods had been profoundly determined by accounts of the fighting, exploits, massacres and atrocities of the Great Patriotic War. Under the powerful influence of the X-stimulant, these were the kinds of ferocious impulses that filled the {3DSK} brains : "These bloodthirsty and dangerous yetis have regrouped to better come back to attack and kill us ".
    We are days away from the rescue march. There is no possibility of escape.
Their brains overwhelmed and convulsed by this cursed substance, there was nothing left but let us follow the example of our elders during the great patriotic war: the best defense is attack.  Let us get out off the tent ! Let us look for the yetis ! Let's kill them or else they'll kill us . Let us find them ! Exterminate them ! Let us go ! Assault ! Attack !

   But outside, in the night the {3DSK} could not see anything and did not know where to go. Suddenly a glow became visible, it was the fire that the {2KD} had just lit at the foot of the cedar tree. (Besides under the influence of this bad X-stimulant they forgot to pick up the ice axe, which could have served as a terribly effective weapon.)
   The {3DSK} then moved towards the fire, in good attack order and without unnecessary haste. So the {3DSK} then naturally followed the tracks left by the {4ZKTBD}, and then by the {2KD}, which had descended down to the forest shortly before, along the line of the steepest slope.

To walk 1.5 kilometers in the snow and at night, it takes at least 9 minutes or more, which is the time it takes for there to be big flames.

The {3DSK} brutally attacked the {2KD} who did not understand anything, and who hesitated to hit their friends too hard, but were forced to defend themselves. First with fists and kicks, and then perhaps with branches of dead wood gathered from the ground.

   Doroshenko was stunned by the blows to the right side of his head and neck and fell out of combat. Krivonischenko climbed into the cedar tree for explanations and to parley. He shouted : "What's happens ? Are you mad ? I am Yuri. Yours good comrade and friend ...".
   The {3DSK} thought: obviously this is not our beloved comrade Yuri Krivonischenko. He is a imposter who look like our friend.
This is a ruse by a vicious and bloodthirsty yeti who is trying to deceive us. (This is the hallmark of Capgras syndrome)).
   Consequently Krivonischenko was chased, burned at the legs, cruelly pulled down. Krivonischenko could not hold on for long, then fell at the foot of the cedar where he too was stunned by numerous blows from the front and from behind.

Left without fire, scantily dressed, and unconscious, the {2KD} quickly froze to death.

**** {4}.§-6-) ****
During this first hand-to-hand fight, the {4ZKTBD} heard some sounds of fighting muffled by the snow, but the {4ZKTBD} preferred not to move out of the den (located 75 meters from the cedar and fire).
The {4ZKTBD} thought: "the {2KD} are two strong and sporty guys, nothing serious can happen".

   Then, the {3DSK}, still completely under the influence of the X-stimulant, go back in search of the others dangerous and bloodthirsty yetis. It was at night, in the forest, in a sloping, snow-covered area. The {3DSK} stubborly searched everywhere for a long time, at least two hours, without finding anything. They then decide to give up and return to take shelter in the tent. To do this they follow the tracks they have left, so the {3DSK} return to the place of the fire (now extinguished).

   But there, under the cedar tree, the {3DSK} met with the {4ZKTBD} who had no longer heard anything. The {4ZKTBD} had been out of the den for a few minutes and had had time to realize that the {2KD} had frozen to death. The {4ZKTBD} had also had time to took some clothes from the {2KD} who had died and did not need anything anymore.

   Immediately the {3DSK} attacked the "4 bloodthirsty yetis". The {3DSK} thought: "What a chance to find them ! We will be able to exterminate them all ! Assault ! Assault !

Always under the powerful influence of the X-stimulant the {3DSK} attacked with the same determination and the same offensive fury and a dreadful second fight began in the darkness between seven fighters...

The {4ZKTBD} had no choice but to desperately try to defend their lives. This second hand-to-hand fight was very violent and brutal as some fighters had had time to pick up wooden bars on the ground that were used  like stabbing weapons, bludgeons which makes it possible to strike of estoc and of size. 

The so called blunt objects were dead branches picked up from the snow-covered ground and eventually quickly and roughly pruned, length:1.2 m - weight between 2 kg and 4 kilograms obtained with the help of knives (perhaps the knife that was not recovered),
and also Vietnamka wrote on May 10, 2018, 11:52:30 AM
Quote
I'm pretty sure zolotarev had his own knife as a person passed through the 2° WW and tourist instructor. He must.
With fury, rage and great muscular forces, ribs were broken, skulls were fractured ; (no need to call upon "overwhelming unknown forces" !).

While defending themselves as best they could, the {4ZKTBD} gradually and instinctively retreated from the cedar to the den.
The fighting was confusing and awkward as all the 7 participants were physically strained.

Thereafter inevitably the 7 hikers were out of condition to fight: half stunned, seriously wounded, moribund...

The {4ZKTBD} collapsed into a hole in the snow a few meters from the den and stayed there because they could not get up. Then the cold finished them off inevitably in a more or less short period of time.
    Assuming that Kolevatov who saw his clothes torn off was he the least seriously injured (?)...or on the contrary did he finally die first (?), he could do practically nothing else but stay with Thibeaux-Brignolle, Dubinina and Zolotaryov while he was waiting for his inevitable death.

In a state of semi-consciousness, the instinct of self-preservation still remains...
The {3DSK} tried to climb back up to the tent despite their serious injuries. Some of them could probably have survived if they could have been quickly and properly treated in a hospital.

Kolmogorova fell forever 850 meters from the tent, but would she have had the strength to leave on her own and reach the labaz with the food, or setttlement 41, since no help would have arrived for several (25) days ?

**** {4}.§-7-) ****
• Official instructions and directives to cover up the affair.
It was only after the discovery of the empty tent on February 26 that the KGB learned that the test with the Dyatlov expedition was causing problems, not before.
The responsible specialists in the relevant ministries and Khrushchev himself obviously understood what it was about (so a failed test for military drugs, in my opinion). But they wanted to maintain defence secrecy and above all not to confess the truth. Only a small circle of people at the top knew the real purpose of the operation.

So the KGB was in a difficult situation, because by February 26th it was too late, as many different people had seen too many inexplicable things.
It is also reasonable to think that the other witnesses, participants and rescuers (among others Vladimir Ivanovich Korotaev, Ivan Stepanovich Prodanov(1906-1964) , Andrei Pavlovich Kirilenko(1906-1990), Colonel Georgiy Semyonovich Ortyukov(1914-1979)...)were puzzled and never understood the causes of the 9 deaths.
 
• The solution found by the KGB was somehow..:
 - A swift halt to the official investigation :
        Korotaev was removed from the position of lead investigator which he occupied for 20 days.
              Prodanov had told Korotayev: "this case being investigated is under the eyes of Khrushchev and I have assured him that it was just hypothermia."
              Kirilenko summoned Korotaev to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained: "Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."

• After the discovery of the 4 damaged corpses (May 9) Lev Nikitich Ivanov and Vasiliy Ivanovich Tempalov (1921-?) were able to write an unconvincing and even suspicious explanation : "it is concluded that the cause of their demise was overwhelming force, which the hikers were not able to overcome"
 -  Everyone who took part in the search signed a non-disclosure of information for 25 years.
 -  The region was closed to tourists for 3 years ;
In the end, the KGB's solution proved to be an excellent one, since 61 years later, in 2020, the mystery remains and no state secrets have been released.

**** {4}.§-8-) ****
• The tragedy of the Dyatlov Pass is part of the general context of the current decline in interest in psychostimulant drugs on the part of the military in all countries.
• It is true that chemical synthesis offers an immense range of doping products, but choosing an effective product is difficult. Determining the right dosage is also difficult because the effects are variable and depend on many factors.
Too much aggressiveness and soldiers massacre each other. Not enough aggressiveness and the soldiers talk intelligently and make peace with the enemy soldiers opposite.
• In addition, recent automated weapons systems have become more complicated and require qualified and skilled technicians rather than infantrymen willing to sacrifice themselves in deadly offensives.


*****    Chapter 5    *****


Under construction: grouping in disorder of a few psychological and historical arguments or comments to take into account future objections I hope to receive.

star   Historical considerations
•••  The 9 hikers of Dyatlov's group were young sportsmen without any serious political role, they were engaged in their technical studies, sports and singing. They did not have much importance in the field of politics.
In 1959 it was the government of Nikita Khrushchev. There were no more repressions and arbitrary acts of terror like in the time of Joseph Stalin(1878-1953).
If by some extraordinary miracles some of the hikers had been an embarrassment to the Kremlin regime, it was completely useless to kill them, because there were many other simple and effective ways to neutralize political opponents and calm down the turbulent young students (such as a short stay in a psychiatric hospital...).


star   Psychological considerations
•••   On the psychological level, it is consistent to think that a homogenous and united group of 9 young Soviet sportsmen and women
 - attacked by human or animal enemies who did not use firearms or knives,
 - fully aware that they are days away from rescue and with no possible retreat,
 - whose childhood had been turned upside down by the historic exemplars of Russian courage and bravery against foreign aggressors during the great patriotic war :
would have rushed at the enemy with a single thrust, hitting him to cut or thrust, with everything that was immediately available at hand: skis, stove parts, tent peg, ski pole, knife...and an ice axe was not far away...
They all well knew, of course, that the best defence is a massive, immediate and concerted counterattack.

•••   It is possible that there may have been grounds for some dispute between them that were not written in the diaries. But they were reasonable people who would have waited until the end of the hiking to quarrel.

•••   If there had been explosions, fireballs, machine-gun fire...
The only solution was to lie down motionless and, if possible, dig deep into the snow.
Certainly not to expose yourself in the open on a vast and bare slope of snow that offered no possibility of hiding.

•••   To look outside a tent it is useless and ridiculous to cut the canvas wall, just push back a bit a flap of the front entrance.


To be completed and continued at a later stage thanks to the hoped others objections of the readers....
°°°
   
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on February 11, 2020, 01:59:24 PM

( fatal altercations on the pass  caused by one mistake with a test of a noxious military psychostimulant).

Errata  of «To complement Eduard Tumanov's ideas, here is something to read :»

        A   
Of course, you have to replace  *  Chapter 1  *  §-3-) (BBcode error)
  All available means to improve the efficiency and performance of soldiers must be used. by
  All available means to improve the efficiency and performance of soldiers must be used.

  who probably stayed alive thanks to the Pervitin.  by
  who probably stayed alive thanks to the Pervitin.
       B   
   Thanks to WAB's good insights (I forgot where they were written) the reader can improve the text by adding :   
     *  Chapter 4  *  §-4-)
    After « The greatest difficulty would have been to quickly find enough firewood that was not too damp. »
Since the dead branches that the {2KD} could remove from the snow cover were wet, one of them (probably Krivonischenko) climbed up the cedar to break some branches and thus pick down twigs from a resinous tree that burst into flames with less difficulty.

     *  Chapter 4  *  §-5-)
    After «Suddenly a glow became visible, it was the fire that the {2KD} had just lit at the foot of the cedar tree »
(The fire was perhaps not visible because the strong wind that blew raised swirls of powdery snow).
In any case, the {3DSK} knew that there is always less wind in the forest and that trees grow at lower elevations. So they went down along "the line of the steepest descent"...which brought them naturally close to the cedar and the fire.


Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on March 07, 2020, 02:21:48 AM
There are no indications that the nine fought with each other at any time.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on March 24, 2020, 04:07:07 PM
There are no indications that the nine fought with each other at any time.
« the main mystery of the tragedy remains the exit of the entire group out of the tent »

« Eduard Tumanov, is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions. »

I began by considering the first assertion : « a fight between them , it is the X-drug theory ».

I am now eliminating that hypothes because it is very improbable that Soviet army laboratories improvised a test incorporating civilians (non-military Soviet citizens).

See
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=590.0
Re: Lev was correct, The tent is the answer.
March 20, 2020, 04:48:38 PM     Reply #11

Therefore like you Per Inge Oestmoen, I now think that the second hypothesis is the best one :
the hikers took part in a fight with outsiders.

And even why do we not say : they tried to fight back against hostile attackers ?

However, I do not understand why you only talk about jiu jitsu. To break bones without leaving bloody marks it is more efficient to hit with a wooden bar (weight about 3 kilograms, length about 1 meter).
Something similar to this old method:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QxAhrEiVR6Q/XO1P0CbKCaI/AAAAAAAAA7w/ssHvD8-g3mcHMf35Ds9mTq9nOXB3K5FWwCLcBGAs/s1600/Peasant%2BStaff%2B%2B%25285%2529.jpg)

And I also spotted a new arguments for strengthening the murdered theory.  See Reply #11
« I found discrepancies with the writings of Per Inge Oestmoen and most importantly :
I can answer (i.e. I ave valid arguments to be able to answer) the 3 useful questions:
   WHO ?
   WHY ?
   HOW ?
(The answers to these 3 questions are not indisputable evidence because they are debatable. But the fact that I can answer these 3 questions shows the coherence of the scenario).»


Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: RidgeWatcher on May 06, 2020, 07:39:37 PM
Hello, To the Forum and Awesome Teddy,

I have had a great connection with with the Dyatlov Incident for the past decade. I have read many books and been on other informal forums. I am grateful for this wonderful forum on this subject and the intelligent posts.

I lived in Alaska for years and I know the subarctic. Where I lived was on the same northern coordinate as Kholat Syakhl. I believe everyone when they contend that the tent is the answer. Although the tent no longer exists due to age, mold and neglect (???).

I propose that before the tent was slashed by knife/knives for the group escape (downhill side), that there were several smaller horizontal (lookout) holes cut into the tent near the downward side ridge line. These were purposefully cut for observation to view actions occurring outside the tent, probably it was dark. Why would you be cutting holes in your tent to look out at in the dark? What they saw through the observation holes made them shred the tent to escape. If you have ever had a gun pointed at you, believe me, you don't start slashing things around you and running off into the darkness. Attackers would have to have a gun or guns in order to attack a strong group of 9 hikers. The hikers would have been shot. You have to hunt in Urals like the Mansi, to obtain enough protein.

I just don't see a group fight or outside invasion. I have never seen a rib cage fractured like Semyon's without any outside skin or tissue damage. My two questions are the tent event and Semyon's true identity. The coroner's report seemed to go into more detail about a previously extracted tooth on one hiker than a missing tongue on another, though the tongue could be an environmental issue.

I believe that Tibo and Semyon were outside the tent and dressed adequately for a toilet break. They saw something outside, either above the tent or below the tent. I have camped in the snow and cold in Alaska, wind or no wind, you do not cut your tent, you would never cut, rip, shred your tent, unless you are more terrified of what is coming towards you or into your tent than certain death by hypothermia. What would scare you more than death?

The footprints rule out the unknown force was not on foot. But I do believe that the hikers were forced out of their tent and down Kholat Syakhl to the tree line as if they were prey. I believe they were a cohesive group under duress and suffering trauma.

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on May 07, 2020, 01:43:27 PM
I agree and will further elaborate on the Eduard Tumanov's ideas when he is pushing the theory that the hikers took part in a fight against outsiders.
This is, moreover, also in accordance with the argumentation of Per Inge Oestmoen and others.
See :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=325

According to my hypothesis N°2, the attackers had no firearms. They only used blunt objects and a suffocating smoke pot of their own making (Improvised Suffocating Device with SO²). The attackers only succeeded in defeating the hikers after several hours (9 am - 6 pm = 9 hours). This is why I will put the DPI in the topic "Altercation on the pass" and not in the topic  "Murdered".
See above: Re: Altercation on the pass Jean Daniel Reuss  March 24, 2020, 04:07:07 PM     Reply #18

...........................
 I have never seen a rib cage fractured like Semyon's without any outside skin or tissue damage.
...........................

Dear RidgeWatcher you do indeed have a serious objection here that contradicts my second hypothesis N°2.

However what can you say to these 4 remarks ?

 1) The autopsies of Zolotariov and Dubinina were carried out may 9; thus 3 months after their death. It was then difficult to evaluate with precision the deteriorations of the skin caused by the blows of the blunt object.


 2) The contact of the skin with the blunt object was done with the interposition of the clothes which reduced the abrasion. Look at :

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=620.0
Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group
For Dubinina there were four layers of cloth.
For Zolotaryov there were five layers of cloth.


 3) It may be assumed that death occurred at the same time or very shortly after the blows that broke the ribs.
Therefore, the cessation of blood flow should logically imply smaller and less visible hematomas.

 4) The blunt object that was used to break the ribs is a piece of wood that has a rounded end more or less equivalent to a sphere with a diameter of 10 centimeters.
It is a piece of birch wood of density 0.6, properly shaped with a small knife,
length 110 centimeters, weight 4 kilograms, handled with both hands.

Note: I am testing with axe-pruned branches of different lengths and weights.
It is certain that in this way you can break many things. A stick that is too heavy is less effective because the speed of striking decreases.

But I admit that my tests are not conclusive because I have neither corpses nor even skeletons to hit.

................................................................
 My two questions are the tent event and Semyon's true identity.
.................................................................

 • The leaving of the tent is  fully explained with all its details by the rapid deflagration of a mixture of potassium nitrate and sulphur powder : 2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S.
This well known method of making the air in a room unbreathable (and SO² is harmless if it is possible to get out quickly), is mentioned, albeit distorted, in Anatoly Stepochkin's narrative:

"... the shamans cut the tarp and  launched some kind of dope inside. Hunters surrounded the tent. And when the hikers jumped out we killed them all...."

Here the translation is obvious:

« shamans ... hunters ...we » = anticommunist and anti-Russian attackers from Vizhay or settlement 41.
« some kind of dope » = Improvised Suffocating Device made with common products available in all drugstores.

 •• What is the importance of Semyon's true identity ?
The hiker who appears in the photos and who is called, rightly or wrongly, "Zolotariov", has proven to be a delightful comrade.



Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on May 09, 2020, 11:29:07 PM
I have a theory about how they got from the tent to the tree line, but that is it so far (It is only my present theory.). If anyone can find a hole in it, I'd love to hear. 
So here it is.
They had two or more visitors who wanted the safety of the tent.  After being invited in, they forced the students out (probably at gun point).  They all climbed out the front flap quietly without disturbing anything much in the tent.  After maybe a brief altercation, they were told to leave on their own initiative or die.  They all lined up together so they wouldn't lose anyone.  The "visitors" then cut a few holes in the tent to watch and make sure they were leaving. The students headed for the tree line because they thought it was the next safest place.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sarapuk on May 11, 2020, 03:47:18 PM
I have a theory about how they got from the tent to the tree line, but that is it so far (It is only my present theory.). If anyone can find a hole in it, I'd love to hear. 
So here it is.
They had two or more visitors who wanted the safety of the tent.  After being invited in, they forced the students out (probably at gun point).  They all climbed out the front flap quietly without disturbing anything much in the tent.  After maybe a brief altercation, they were told to leave on their own initiative or die.  They all lined up together so they wouldn't lose anyone.  The "visitors" then cut a few holes in the tent to watch and make sure they were leaving. The students headed for the tree line because they thought it was the next safest place.

Well its as good as any of the Theories because we are missing so much evidence. But you do realise that there are many events that make up the whole in this Dyatlov Case. EXTRAORDINARY INJURIES and FIRE and CEDAR TREE and so called DEN at the Ravine etc etc.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on May 11, 2020, 11:58:36 PM
Thanks for your input Sarapuk.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 01, 2020, 09:43:23 AM

........ we are missing so much evidence. But you do realise that there are many events that make up the whole in this Dyatlov Case. EXTRAORDINARY INJURIES and FIRE and CEDAR TREE and so called DEN at the Ravine etc etc.

DPI is a misfortune that is not mysterious from the moment you admit that Eduard Tumanov ( he is more competent than I am) did not make a mistake when he wrote :
   
" hikers took part in a fight"

In the first place the injuries of the hikers, (that without the cold, perhaps would not have been fatal except those of the den), are quite explainable and ordinary.

Per Inge Oestmoen who is trained in combat sports tells us that he is able to break his opponents' ribs only with his elbow.

I simply point out that in order to smash a man's - or even an ox's - skull, it is simpler and more efficient to use a blunt object (length about 1 m, weight about 4 kg; which can be called a mace or a big blugeon).

This is a discovery that was made at least 100,000 years ago by prehistoric man.

I do not have a skeleton or a human corpse lying on the ground at my disposal for fracture tests, but ribs are fine bones that seem very easy to break.

Lev Ivanov was cautious and deliberately imprecise, but he has made a correct work by law with his conclusion :
"The reason for the death of students was overwhelming force which they were unable to overcome." that is not wrong.

Indeed, when you get a big bludgeon blow to the head the truth is exactly that it is an overwhelming force that you are unable to overcome.

Doroshenko and Kivonischenko were resourceful guys and with matches, freshly cut cedar twigs and dead branches picked up from the frozen ground they succeeded in starting a fire. This is not extraordinary.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

I agree with you that there will be no absolute certainty.

But thanks to Teddy's exposure and her translations of the documents available on the DPI we have enough knowledge to be able to
reconstruct a probable scenario that can explain the totality of what we know.

Obviously some unimportant details of the fighting that took place on the night of February 1 to 2, 1959 are more difficult to reconstruct.

For example, I would like to know if Kolmogorova and Slobodin fell the first as they went down the slope from the tent to the cedar tree.
Or on the contrary, if Kolmogorova and Slobodin fell the last as they went up the slope from the cedar towards the tent.

to be continued

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:16:28 PM


DPI is a misfortune that is not mysterious from the moment you admit that Eduard Tumanov ( he is more competent than I am) did not make a mistake when he wrote :
   
" hikers took part in a fight"

In the first place the injuries of the hikers, (that without the cold, perhaps would not have been fatal except those of the den), are quite explainable and ordinary.


Lev Ivanov was cautious and deliberately imprecise, but he has made a correct work by law with his conclusion :
"The reason for the death of students was overwhelming force which they were unable to overcome." that is not wrong.

Indeed, when you get a big bludgeon blow to the head the truth is exactly that it is an overwhelming force that you are unable to overcome.

Doroshenko and Kivonischenko were resourceful guys and with matches, freshly cut cedar twigs and dead branches picked up from the frozen ground they succeeded in starting a fire. This is not extraordinary.



Well I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements.  You are quoting other people who themselves were not sure about what happened.  And the injuries are certainly not ordinary when you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 15, 2020, 03:32:25 PM
Well I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements.  You are quoting other people Who themselves Were not sure about What happened.  And the injuries are certainly not ordinary When you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.

I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements.

Yes, you are right ! Indeed there are no proofs.

My method of research - which is neither personal nor original - consists of

   a) *** First to reconstruct (or imagine if you prefer) a complete and coherent scenario with the data that are available.
   b) *** Then follows the phase of evaluation by comparison with other hypotheses as well as discussions on the likelihood and quality of the arguments.

I gave an example of this method with "my hypothesis N°1" which was inspired by Eduard Tumanov ("...hikers took part in a fight...between them...") and by a short sentence of Vladimir Sungorkin which alluded to the test of an unknown drug in a video.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0   (Altercation on the pass)
February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM      Reply #15
    a) *** Reconstruction = Dyatlov's hike had been the subject of a trial of a new  military psychostimulant,
    b) *** Phase of evaluation = My hypothesis N°1 is false because the Soviet army had at its disposal many young soldiers who were training in Siberia and it was contrary to the Soviet administrative customs to employ civilians for such a test.


Remarks :
 - It is said that in fictional literature Conan Doyle with Sherlock Holmes gives examples of the use of material clues while Agatha Christie emphasizes psychological clues.
 - Any reconstruction requires the use of fantasy, I agree, and also intuition.


You are quoting other people who themselves were not sure about what happened.

Yes, you are right. Other people were not sure about what happened.

       But I do not understand what is bothering you.
I read the posts and I quote (not systematically) the authors from whom I take ideas to elaborate my own hypothesis N°2.
       Otherwise it would be possible that I would be considered as a thief of ideas.

So, for example, here are some ideas that I stole and that I will be willing to incorporate, after modifications, in my hypothesis N°2.

 Lev Ivanov ---> he has not felt completely free to express himself and I think that his closing ("an uncontrollable force") should be considered with a touch of humour.

 Eduard Tumanov. ---> "...is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them...".

 Noelle ---> "...the cause of death of the first five group members...is that they were definitely involved in some sort of „fist fight“, they must have been attacked by someone..."; (I disagree with Noelle about the other four of the den).

 Per Inge Oestmoen ---> like me think that "the answer lies in the bodies [corpse]- and the injuries leave no doubt"..."bodie [corpse]do not lie..." ;
but I disagree with all his other queries such as : they witnessed something in the Urals the Soviet state did not want anyone to know,

 Loose}{Cannon  --->  The gulags....have been disbanded in 1953....Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities....There were mentally ill,....political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up....".

 Liyla79 --->   "Their group were deliberately GASSED out of the tent. ... There is evidence on the bodies that they have been in a fist fight....".

 Nordlander ---> "...I don't think it was escapees from a gulag....many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there and they were freed. The loggers fall into this category....".


And the injuries are certainly not ordinary when you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.

However, I am sure I disagree with your assertion. All these injuries appear to be very ordinary to me.

The allegation that the injuries of the four of the den are difficult to interpret  is the result of misinformation and initial propaganda imposed by the Soviet government in 1959 and by Khrushchev himself.

The effectiveness of two-handed bludgeons(maces) for breaking bones and all sorts of things has been known since prehistoric times.

The mechanics of impacts, shocks and blows is difficult (and by the way not yet complete) especially when applied to a structure as complicated as a human body.

But to make a long story short, it is accepted in biomechanics that an energy of 100 joules is sufficient to fracture a skull.

This is to be compared with a two-handed mace stroke, which, because it involves several large muscles of the body, requires an energy of 500 joules for its excecution.

One can imagine a two-handed blow with a mace as the impact of a 25 cm diameter birch wood sphere (weight=4.9 kg with d=0.6) animated at a speed of 14 m/s, this corresponds theoretically to a kinetic energy of 480 joules.


 The lack of obvious damage to soft tissue argument is not serious.

(See also these some posts :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=383.30   
and my Reply #20   -   May 07, 2020, 01:43:27 PM)

The state of putrefaction of the bodies of the four of the den  no longer allowed precise conclusions to be drawn about soft tissue damage !

In addition, the use of bludgeons covered with a layer of cloth is also possible. For example for hunting in order to obtain beautiful skins without holes it is preferable to silently stun the animal (wolverine, wolf, reindeer, ... and bigger) which is obviously less easy than a neutralization with edged weapons.

On this matter, I did not understand the comments of Eduard Tumanov (my dear inspirator you can say) in this video after the 36th minute and 30 second.

Indeed despite the translation of the subtitles in French, I can only understand a very small part of the lyrics ( I understand better the written texts that can be copied/pasted into an online machine translator).

https://youtu.be/UM2csYGEU5k

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

In summary,the DPI is an operation of a terrorist nature carried out by former gulag  prisoners, released in 1953,(i.e. ex-zeks) who considered themselves patriots of oppressed nations in conflict with the USSR. The target that was exterminated were our unfortunate hikers who were not even aware that they symbolized the arrogant and victorious Soviet imperialism.

- A terrorist operation is an attempt, in spite of derisory means, to destabilize state authority and also to impress public opinion (which in this case did not take place since the secret could be maintained until 2020 and probably for a long time to come).

If the anecdotal episodes of the DPI now appear to me to be easy to reconstruct (or to imagine in a plausible way), the essential historical context is beyond my knowledge and competence.

However, to introduce the explanations of my hypothesis N°2, here are some notes of disparate readings, recopied on a French historian, about the topic of the ex-zeks.

 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

" Stalin's successors wanted to mark the end of the Stalinist era by showing that the victims could be freed without fundamentally questioning the Soviet political project.
.........
Thus, by the decree of 27 March 1953, Beria decided on the unconditional and gradual release of half of the prisoners in the Gulag camps (the zeks), and these provisions were continued by Khrushchev in 1954 and 1956. However, it must be taken into account that the consequences of mass releases were often unexpected, mainly because the operations themselves were poorly prepared. Finally, the Thaw is an era of experimentation.
    In their search for ways to reactivate the socialist project, the leaders, led by Khrushchev, believed in the need to make efforts to integrate criminals into their social project.
...........
Another element of surprise was that the amnesty consciously freed proven enemies of the regime: nationalists who had fought during the Second World War for the independence of states now incorporated into the Soviet Union and also hardened criminals who hated power.
...............
The gulag administration had been struggling since the Second World War with a new type of prisoners, nationalists from various satellite countries and soldiers and officers returning from the front, convicted of treason, collaboration or banditry. Hardened by several years of war and guerrilla warfare, determined and well-organized, they put up fierce resistance to the administration of the camps, ranging from disobedience to the organization of revolts.
The Presidium of the Central Committee defied the commissions which it had itself set up and placed exclusively faithful communists, devoted magistrates and grateful local potentates.
     At the time of the unrest in Hungary and Poland (1956) he regretted having entrusted the right of amnesty to decentralized and weakly controlled bodies. He felt that the commissions had unduly released some prisoners ...
...............
These mass releases led to tragedies and put the Soviet leaders in uncomfortable situations (Beria in the summer of 1953, Khrushchev in the autumn of 1956 and in the summer of 1960), how can it be explained that they used them for eight years? The answer most often put forward to account for these perilous decisions is that Stalin's successors would have had no choice: liberations would have been imposed on them as the only way to save the regime, regardless of the consequences.
.............
In conclusion, the years of Khrushchev's thaw are a time of great liberation unique in Soviet history. This period is marked by three major ruptures. The first is that of Stalin's death on March 5, 1953.
       Beria then decided to carry out far-reaching reforms to revitalize Soviet society. The amnesty of half of the 2.5 million prisoners in the Gulag is an essential part of this policy.
      The ensuing social catastrophe postponed Beria's planned reforms. The second break came at the end of 1955. After Beria's arrest, the Gulag devoted itself to maintaining order in the camps and to balancing its finances. It was a period of mass liberation to stimulate the prison labour force and to rid the camps of the least profitable prisoners, whether political or common law. The failure of this prison-only approach to liberation precipitated the radical reform of the Gulag that Khrushchev wanted.
............."


Even now, the amnesty of 27 March 1953 does not have a good press in contemporary Russia. A successful film work, The Cold Summer of 1953, revived its memory in 1987 and influenced its reception. It is a drama in which a group of bandits freed by the amnesty oppose a few (good) political prisoners, exiled in a remote Siberian village.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Summer_of_1953

Director: Aleksandr PROCHKINE,   Screenplay: Edgar DOUBROVSKI .

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: janeeyre2150 on June 19, 2020, 11:36:02 PM
Well I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements.  You are quoting other people Who themselves Were not sure about What happened.  And the injuries are certainly not ordinary When you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.

I dont see any EVIDENCE provided by you to prove your Statements.

Yes, you are right ! Indeed there are no proofs.

My method of research - which is neither personal nor original - consists of

   a) *** First to reconstruct (or imagine if you prefer) a complete and coherent scenario with the data that are available.
   b) *** Then follows the phase of evaluation by comparison with other hypotheses as well as discussions on the likelihood and quality of the arguments.

I gave an example of this method with "my hypothesis N°1" which was inspired by Eduard Tumanov ("...hikers took part in a fight...between them...") and by a short sentence of Vladimir Sungorkin which alluded to the test of an unknown drug in a video.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0   (Altercation on the pass)
February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM      Reply #15
    a) *** Reconstruction = Dyatlov's hike had been the subject of a trial of a new  military psychostimulant,
    b) *** Phase of evaluation = My hypothesis N°1 is false because the Soviet army had at its disposal many young soldiers who were training in Siberia and it was contrary to the Soviet administrative customs to employ civilians for such a test.


Remarks :
 - It is said that in fictional literature Conan Doyle with Sherlock Holmes gives examples of the use of material clues while Agatha Christie emphasizes psychological clues.
 - Any reconstruction requires the use of fantasy, I agree, and also intuition.


You are quoting other people who themselves were not sure about what happened.

Yes, you are right. Other people were not sure about what happened.

       But I do not understand what is bothering you.
I read the posts and I quote (not systematically) the authors from whom I take ideas to elaborate my own hypothesis N°2.
       Otherwise it would be possible that I would be considered as a thief of ideas.

So, for example, here are some ideas that I stole and that I will be willing to incorporate, after modifications, in my hypothesis N°2.

 Lev Ivanov ---> he has not felt completely free to express himself and I think that his closing ("an uncontrollable force") should be considered with a touch of humour.

 Eduard Tumanov. ---> "...is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them...".

 Noelle ---> "...the cause of death of the first five group members...is that they were definitely involved in some sort of „fist fight“, they must have been attacked by someone..."; (I disagree with Noelle about the other four of the den).

 Per Inge Oestmoen ---> like me think that "the answer lies in the bodies [corpse]- and the injuries leave no doubt"..."bodie [corpse]do not lie..." ;
but I disagree with all his other queries such as : they witnessed something in the Urals the Soviet state did not want anyone to know,

 Loose}{Cannon  --->  The gulags....have been disbanded in 1953....Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities....There were mentally ill,....political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up....".

 Liyla79 --->   "Their group were deliberately GASSED out of the tent. ... There is evidence on the bodies that they have been in a fist fight....".

 Nordlander ---> "...I don't think it was escapees from a gulag....many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there and they were freed. The loggers fall into this category....".


And the injuries are certainly not ordinary when you look at the Bodies of those at the Ravine.

However, I am sure I disagree with your assertion. All these injuries appear to be very ordinary to me.

The allegation that the injuries of the four of the den are difficult to interpret  is the result of misinformation and initial propaganda imposed by the Soviet government in 1959 and by Khrushchev himself.

The effectiveness of two-handed bludgeons(maces) for breaking bones and all sorts of things has been known since prehistoric times.

The mechanics of impacts, shocks and blows is difficult (and by the way not yet complete) especially when applied to a structure as complicated as a human body.

But to make a long story short, it is accepted in biomechanics that an energy of 100 joules is sufficient to fracture a skull.

This is to be compared with a two-handed mace stroke, which, because it involves several large muscles of the body, requires an energy of 500 joules for its excecution.

One can imagine a two-handed blow with a mace as the impact of a 25 cm diameter birch wood sphere (weight=4.9 kg with d=0.6) animated at a speed of 14 m/s, this corresponds theoretically to a kinetic energy of 480 joules.


 The lack of obvious damage to soft tissue argument is not serious.

(See also these some posts :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=383.30   
and my Reply #20   -   May 07, 2020, 01:43:27 PM)

The state of putrefaction of the bodies of the four of the den  no longer allowed precise conclusions to be drawn about soft tissue damage !

In addition, the use of bludgeons covered with a layer of cloth is also possible. For example for hunting in order to obtain beautiful skins without holes it is preferable to silently stun the animal (wolverine, wolf, reindeer, ... and bigger) which is obviously less easy than a neutralization with edged weapons.

On this matter, I did not understand the comments of Eduard Tumanov (my dear inspirator you can say) in this video after the 36th minute and 30 second.

Indeed despite the translation of the subtitles in French, I can only understand a very small part of the lyrics ( I understand better the written texts that can be copied/pasted into an online machine translator).

https://youtu.be/UM2csYGEU5k

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

In summary,the DPI is an operation of a terrorist nature carried out by former gulag  prisoners, released in 1953,(i.e. ex-zeks) who considered themselves patriots of oppressed nations in conflict with the USSR. The target that was exterminated were our unfortunate hikers who were not even aware that they symbolized the arrogant and victorious Soviet imperialism.

- A terrorist operation is an attempt, in spite of derisory means, to destabilize state authority and also to impress public opinion (which in this case did not take place since the secret could be maintained until 2020 and probably for a long time to come).

If the anecdotal episodes of the DPI now appear to me to be easy to reconstruct (or to imagine in a plausible way), the essential historical context is beyond my knowledge and competence.

However, to introduce the explanations of my hypothesis N°2, here are some notes of disparate readings, recopied on a French historian, about the topic of the ex-zeks.

 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

" Stalin's successors wanted to mark the end of the Stalinist era by showing that the victims could be freed without fundamentally questioning the Soviet political project.
.........
Thus, by the decree of 27 March 1953, Beria decided on the unconditional and gradual release of half of the prisoners in the Gulag camps (the zeks), and these provisions were continued by Khrushchev in 1954 and 1956. However, it must be taken into account that the consequences of mass releases were often unexpected, mainly because the operations themselves were poorly prepared. Finally, the Thaw is an era of experimentation.
    In their search for ways to reactivate the socialist project, the leaders, led by Khrushchev, believed in the need to make efforts to integrate criminals into their social project.
...........
Another element of surprise was that the amnesty consciously freed proven enemies of the regime: nationalists who had fought during the Second World War for the independence of states now incorporated into the Soviet Union and also hardened criminals who hated power.
...............
The gulag administration had been struggling since the Second World War with a new type of prisoners, nationalists from various satellite countries and soldiers and officers returning from the front, convicted of treason, collaboration or banditry. Hardened by several years of war and guerrilla warfare, determined and well-organized, they put up fierce resistance to the administration of the camps, ranging from disobedience to the organization of revolts.
The Presidium of the Central Committee defied the commissions which it had itself set up and placed exclusively faithful communists, devoted magistrates and grateful local potentates.
     At the time of the unrest in Hungary and Poland (1956) he regretted having entrusted the right of amnesty to decentralized and weakly controlled bodies. He felt that the commissions had unduly released some prisoners ...
...............
These mass releases led to tragedies and put the Soviet leaders in uncomfortable situations (Beria in the summer of 1953, Khrushchev in the autumn of 1956 and in the summer of 1960), how can it be explained that they used them for eight years? The answer most often put forward to account for these perilous decisions is that Stalin's successors would have had no choice: liberations would have been imposed on them as the only way to save the regime, regardless of the consequences.
.............
In conclusion, the years of Khrushchev's thaw are a time of great liberation unique in Soviet history. This period is marked by three major ruptures. The first is that of Stalin's death on March 5, 1953.
       Beria then decided to carry out far-reaching reforms to revitalize Soviet society. The amnesty of half of the 2.5 million prisoners in the Gulag is an essential part of this policy.
      The ensuing social catastrophe postponed Beria's planned reforms. The second break came at the end of 1955. After Beria's arrest, the Gulag devoted itself to maintaining order in the camps and to balancing its finances. It was a period of mass liberation to stimulate the prison labour force and to rid the camps of the least profitable prisoners, whether political or common law. The failure of this prison-only approach to liberation precipitated the radical reform of the Gulag that Khrushchev wanted.
............."


Even now, the amnesty of 27 March 1953 does not have a good press in contemporary Russia. A successful film work, The Cold Summer of 1953, revived its memory in 1987 and influenced its reception. It is a drama in which a group of bandits freed by the amnesty oppose a few (good) political prisoners, exiled in a remote Siberian village.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cold_Summer_of_1953

Director: Aleksandr PROCHKINE,   Screenplay: Edgar DOUBROVSKI .

I agree with this theory tbh, I think this one is the most realistic among others (avalanche, infrared, bigfoot...) Because i also had a feeling that those people they encountered on the way to the mountain were the ones who may or may not caused their demise. One thing is for sure for me tho, is that they were definitely involved with a fight with a HUMAN BEING and not some mythical creature that unfortunate night. But i just want to ask, where do u think those radioactive traces on their clothing came from? Is it because the 'attackers' worked in a radioactive environment? Or did the radioactive stuff came from the hikers?
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 20, 2020, 03:36:08 PM

.......................
 But I just want to ask, where do you think those radioactive traces on their clothing came from?
 Is it because the 'attackers' worked in a radioactive environment? 
 Or did the radioactive stuff came from the hikers ?

...where do you think those radioactive traces on their clothing came from ?
As I wrote
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=376.0
Measuring contamination in biological samples - Tables 1 and 3
February 20, 2020, 02:42:51 PM  -  Reply #4

The DPI cannot be explained by radioactive contamination, whether this contamination is low, medium, high or very high.

In the vicinity of Sverdlosk, during the years 1950-1959, there were many research, studies and production activities involving radioactive elements and some containment failures and radioactive leaks were very likely and even unavoidable.

There could be traces of abnormal radioactivity everywhere, that is why the military, the police...etc, were normally or often equipped with radioactivity detectors and counters.

Contrary to my hypothesis N°2, which it is in truth  impossible to prove, I am absolutely certain that radioactivity has nothing to do with DPI. That is a red herring.
 I have worked here for 40 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Alternative_Energies_and_Atomic_Energy_Commission

Is it because the 'attackers' worked in a radioactive environment ?
According to my actual opinion, which I call my hypothesis No. 2, the attackers were ex-zeks, who, with few exceptions, did not generally work in the nuclear industries.
But the most important point is that the 3 clothes with low radioactive contamination had been provided by the hikers themselves.

Or did the radioactive stuff came from the hikers ?
 It is reasonable to assume that some of the students at the UPI were normally required to carry out practical exercises with radioactive products during which the maximum precautions according to current standards were not taken. This was the mentality of the time in all laboratories and educational establishments throughout the world.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

An example, which might interest you, of the real and great dangers of the radioactivity produced by the strontium 90 used in the Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator (RTG) is the "Radiological Incident in Lia" in 2001.    See

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=375.0
Kolevatov's device
GeneralFailure: March 11, 2020, 02:45:05 PM ---> Reply #18

The impressive description of the damage can be found in the indicated file

https://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/Publications/PDF/Pub1660web-81061875.pdf

Of obviously a very expensive RTG had not been entrusted to Kolevatov to go on holiday in the Urals mountains !

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: alecsandros on June 23, 2020, 02:39:45 AM
Hello ,

You've made a wonderfull reply to my inquiries.

However, some details need to be addressed IMHO. I hope some further analysis won't be bothering you.

Jean Daniel Reuss:
"I do not think there were any hikers posted or watching outside the tent."

I agree that it is possible they did not have a sentry outside. I am not fully convinced of this , but it is a possibility.

"The knives in question were folding knives, apparently without a safety lock."
They had both types - the folding knives (pocket knife) and the larger non-folding knife, kept in it's sheath. It is entirely plausible that they weren't adept in fighting using them, and in the panic they didn't take them.

" I think that on the slope of the Klolat Syakhl the violent hand-to-hand combat where Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov (in that order) fell stunned, wounded and then froze to death took place in complete darkness.
The flaslights were not used and the moon was not yet up. No one could see anything but vague dark outlines standing out against the lighter background of the snow.
Loss of balance and falls were frequent on both parts because the snow-covered ground was uneven and slippery.
The attackers could not see better than the hikers, but they had better footwear. Thus the attackers could move faster (rather less slowly) which was a decisive advantage for the attackers as they kept the initiative to go on the offensive or break off the fight."

I can understand this . BUt the question arises: how did the attackers find the tent in the darkness ? Surely it would have been difficult to walk from the edge of the forest (where they presumably were hiding) until reaching the tent. How did they find them ?

"      ••  Once the victim, unconscious or slowed down in his movements by the first blows received, is lying on the ground, it is sufficient to continue hitting.
In Slobodin's case, it was enough to hit him one or more times on the left temple, then turn his head and continue hitting the right temple."

Agreed it is a possibility. What I would add is that it would be difficult to hit the exact place of both temples twice. But not impossible.

" There is no difficulty in breaking human bones with a heavy club, as the energy corresponding to the blows is more than sufficient.
Approximately, we have 4 kg falling from a height of 3 m (120 joules) to which we must add double the muscular energy produced by a set of large muscles."

Agreed it was possible , but why didn't Lyubidina and "Zolotaryov" raise their hands ? [i.e. why don't they have fractures or hits on their arms in self defence]

" On the slope of the Kholat Syakhl almost all traces of footsteps and fights had been erased on February 26, 1959 because the wind had often blown strongly since February 2."

Agreed on that. The selectivity of the footprints that remained visible is most interesting IMHO.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 25, 2020, 09:18:07 AM


.......................
"I do not think there were any hikers posted or watching outside the tent."

I agree that it is possible they did not have a sentry outside. I am not fully convinced of this , but it is a possibility.
..........................................

@ alecsandros : Thank you for your specific questions which allow me to improve my scenario of the "altercation against ex-zek aggressors" by making my explanations more convincing.

...the larger non-folding knife....

   ••   With my hypothesis N°2, it is the introduction of an Improvised Suffocating Device releasing SO² that explains the rushed exit of the tent and the cutting of the canvas. See: Reply #20 and : General Discussion / Re: Tent was their lifeboat Reply #1, April 08, 2020.

For the first few minutes the hikers may not even have understood where the suffocating gas was coming from and that they were under attack.
In any case the hikers did not have time to take the knife, axes,the ice axe,..etc, which seems to indicate that they were not worried and that the surprise of the attack was total.

Thus the attackers had the advantage of being armed with blunt objects while the hikers had only their bare fists to defend themselves.
By fighting with a long object (about or longer than 1 m) the attackers could more easily keep the athletic hikers at a distance and avoid direct contact.

 • A light stick, which has the advantage of allowing a great speed of movement, generally causes non-fatal injuries.
(In everyday life a less exceptional case is when the opponent is an aggressive dog that can (hopefully) be prevented from getting close to you with a jab - the aggressive dog can be considered as an opponent known for its speed in dogfighting).
Below is a video that can give an idea of how to handle the light stick (weight about 400 g).

https://youtu.be/WT44cXI18b4

 • In contrast, the disadvantage of using a heavy bludgeon (weight about 4 kg) is that speed is lost. Therefore in this case it is preferable (for attackers) to wait for the right moment to be able to deliver a decisive blow strong enough to prevent the opponent from reacting quickly.


...how did the attackers find the tent in the darkness ?

   ••   The hickers' track had not had time to completely disappear because the attackers were following the track an hour after the hickers had passed.
Evening was falling, the darkness was not yet complete, and some things near or far remained visible or perceptible on the Kholat Syakhl slope.

On this small map below, the difference in altitude between two contours is 10 m.

(https://preview.ibb.co/knKeXS/cdb79eda4f79.jpg)

On the map below, the difference in altitude between two contours is 20 m.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-expedition-2019-cropped.png)

We can realize that on the afternoon of February 1 the hikers, after climbing from the edge of the forest in deep snow, probably only advanced 900 m on the Kholat Syakhl slope, almost in a straight line and rising 80 m in altitude.
It was a track that was not difficult to follow !

On the other hand, one of the worries of the strikers was not to be detected by the hikers. The attackers were not to advance too fast and too far until it was completely dark to make sure that the hikers did not notice them.
So while the hikers were working on setting up the tent as pictured here...

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-11.jpg)

...I think that the attackers were waiting for the appropriate moment to launch the initial assault at a determined distance, for exemple 300 m. (This determined distance was dependent on the visibility. And the visibility itself depended on the wind-driven snow flurries).


... it would be difficult to hit the exact place of both temples twice

  ••   Once the victim is stunned and remains lying on the ground without moving much, the sense of eyesight is no longer necessary to continue hitting him/her in specific places. Remember everything that blind people are able to do using only the sense of touch.
Everyone can experience that they can locate close objects in absolute darkness, i.e. with an opaque blindfold covering their eyes.

Moreover, outside, the stars produce some light and, even if the moon is not up, and so you can distinguish the different parts of a human body lying on the snow, because the snow is very white.


...why didn't Lyubidina and "Zolotaryov" raise their hands ? [i.e. why don't they have fractures or hits on their arms in self defence]

   ••   6 hours after the attack on doroshenko and Krivoniskenko at the base of the cedar the four of the den made the mistake of thinking that the attackers had departed, i.e. that the danger had ceased.
The four of the den came out of hiding. They then found that Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were absolutely dead and they took several clothes. Then they did not stay on the alert, nor did they remain perfectly grouped. At that moment the darkness was less deep: the moon was up, the dawn of February 2 was near.

The attackers launched their fourth surprise offensive in conditions favourable to them. That is to say, they were able to knock out the 4 hikers with a first precise (and strong) decisive blow on the head (or neck in the case of Kolevatov). Then there was no more difficulty to continue to break some ribs, tear out eyes, cut a tongue................

So when the attackers left the scene they were sure that none of the 9 hikers would be able to survive for long.


Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: alecsandros on June 26, 2020, 05:42:56 AM
Sorry, I tried to reply but the forum ate what I wrote. I'll try another time for a round of follow up questions...

Best,
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: alecsandros on June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM
Thanks for your informative reply, and for the video with presentation of usage of sticks for self-defense.

Reading your reply I found out just how little did Dyatlov Group move on Fev 1st: 900meters. That's very little. I wonder why ?
In any case, with a mere 900meters to travel, their potential attackers could have followed them with no problems...

Some further aspects that need scrutiny, IMHO:

- why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?

- there should have been footprints of the attackers, from the forest edge all the way to the tent. Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?
I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.

- if the skiers were able to make a fire, and gather braches for burning, then for some time that means they were free from attack. Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?

- if the attackers used sticks and clubs, how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ? Could it be they were the least attacked ?

- again on the footprints: in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?

- Further on the approach and withdrawal: I understand that the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail. They actually encountered a hunter at one point.
Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ? After all, they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2... Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.

Best Regards,
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Georgi on July 02, 2020, 10:52:39 PM


- why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?
Maybe the attacks themselves were conducted with blunt objects but that doesn’t discount ranged weapons being present, if there were two or three people with a firearm(hunting rifle) then bringing weapons out would be easy to prevent.

Quote
- there should have been footprints of the attackers, from the forest edge all the way to the tent. Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?
I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.
There are ways to break your tracks, especially if the people were using ski/snow shoe, they had the advantage of daylight the next day to go back and cover their tracks, wind, snow and time took care of what they missed. When the search party first came they wouldn’t have been interested in any anomalies once they found the tracks, they called back up and there were one or two dozen people searching the area which means by the time they found the first bodies and started trying to gather evidence everything was contaminated beyond salvation.

Quote
- if the skiers were able to make a fire, and gather braches for burning, then for some time that means they were free from attack. Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?
They left them to die of the elements, they left the hikers with just enough resources to give them hope but not enough in their estimate to allow them to actually survive, once they were proven wrong they went to finish the job.

Quote
- if the attackers used sticks and clubs, how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ? Could it be they were the least attacked ?
Likely at the tent there was a scuffle, four hikers were involved in the fight that they ultimately lost, they were ordered to march to the treeline with the expectation they will die there, but some of them survived and forced the attackers to go and finish the job. By the time they got there the two men under the tree were already dead as was likely Slobodin and maybe Zinaida. By the time the attackers went to finish the job it is possible that the only people left alive were the once in the Ravine, everyone else was dead or very close to death at that point for them to bother.

Quote
- again on the footprints: in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?
They had daylight, and they had branches to break up their trail, with time, snow and the wind there would be very little to indicate someone was there even if someone was looking when the searchers got there. Keep in mind a group of attackers would have had a day or two to cover their tracks and then get out of there as fast as they can to put distance between themselves and the hikers.

Quote
- Further on the approach and withdrawal: I understand that the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail. They actually encountered a hunter at one point.
Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ? After all, they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2... Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.
It’s a big place, by the time they ran into a hunter they could have been 10-20km away from the dead hikers, harder to connect someone to a murder when you don’t know it has happened yet and they are many km away from the crime scene and at least 3-4 weeks before anyone interviews the hunters. There is also another option, either the attackers were that good or they were scary enough to keep the Mansi hunters from talking even if they spotted them especially when the hunters in question figure out that they might have killed 9 people in cold blood.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 04, 2020, 04:01:07 PM

...........Some further aspects that need scrutiny, IMHO:...............See Reply #31
 
.................alecsandros-like subjects and questions.....- see Reply #32..............

Thank you for your thoughtful queries that help me improve my hypothesis N°2 (which has the advantage of being able to provide a plausible explanation for all of the events that are currently on display at the site developed by Teddy)


how little did Dyatlov Group move on Fev 1st: 900meters. That's very little. I wonder why ?

   ••• This question had already been asked by Louisette in two topics (with the same name).  See :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=528.msg7685#msg7685
Louisette      :  General Discussion >  Strange slow progression after (labaz) = November 11, 2019, 05:53:22 AM  (0 reply)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=529.msg7697#msg7697
Louisette      :  General Discussion >  Strange slow progression after (labaz) = November 13, 2019, 06:11:47 PM (2 reply)

     
(https://i.ibb.co/4TdNY81/Capture-pass-Copie.png)

Indeed, on 1 February the hikers moved 2.5 km (not 4 km) horizontally and climbed 300m in altitude.
 Look at :   November 30, 2019, 09:25:52 AM, my Reply #1

No wonder, on soft snow, in cold and bad weather:
   a) On the morning of February 1st the hikers spent 4 hours sorting the material out of the rucksacks and building their own labaz (cache).
"...In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov's warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and an extra set of skis. The storage depot was found 500 meters below the top edge of the forest, in the upper sources of Auspiya river."
   b) A rate of ascent of 100 meters in altitude is normal, so 3 hours of travel.
   c) Construction of the platform with a protective snow wall, anchoring to withstand the wind and erection of the tent: 2 hours minimum.

The hikers were very busy all day long on February 1st (without suspecting the attack they were going to suffer next).

         
why didn't the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ?

   •••  Because the surprise was total. The hikers did not immediately understand that the people who reached their tents at nightfall were not lost peaceful wanderers. On the contrary, they were what I call attackers, although in all honesty they were determined and ruthless murderers.

In 1959 the official statements of the government authorities looked like overly optimistic propaganda.
The Patriotic war is over.  The excessive Stalin is replaced by the righteous Khrushchev. There is no more danger for honest citizens. Peace and security reign throughout the country. The Soviet Union is becoming a model for all the countries of the world. Our police are effective, so the criminals are all in jail.  Our country surpasses the USA in almost all  domains. Everyone is happy. ........

Besides, this security atmosphere was neither entirely true nor entirely false.
Thus, this was true in the UPI which is a great privileged school with students and professors necessarily selected.
This was no longer true in the suburbs of the big cities or in the small remote villages in Taiga.

In other words, Lev Gordo (Chairman of the board of the UPI sports club), Korolev, eller Vasiliy Korolyov, (Chairman of the Route Commission) and the other members: Novikova, Evgeniy Maslennikov, Stanislav Bogomolov were living under the illusion of widespread security throughout the country.

It is an example of the randomness of the war, which on a philosophical level can even illustrate the unpredictability of the human condition.

It would have taken only a few more seconds for the hikers to be able to hold an axe or the ice axe in one hand. And then the DPI could have been very different. The result could have been 3 ex-zeks dead with their skulls cracked open by an axe blow and 2 hikers slightly injured...


where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?

I will detail later the hurried and forced exit of the tent in total confusion, with 3 stages, according to my hypothesis N°2.
  1) Introduction by surprise inside the tent of an Improvised Suffocating Device releasing SO². Probably 1 kg of a mixture of potassium nitrate and sulphur powder: 2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S  =>> absolute necessity to exit from the tent in less than 2 minutes without seeing anything because the eyes are bulging.
  2) The classic war trick.  By shouting very loudly the gases are arriving, the gas is coming everywhere on the slope. Let us all flee to the forest => illusion during 5 minutes.
  3) Then jostling and first light hits with the sticks  => the hikers still continue to go down towards the cedar for a few minutes.

Once they got out of the tent, it was too late. All they had available were their bare fists to defend themselves. The athletic hikers struck with strength and bravery, but were overwhelmed in the end by the attackers armed with heavy clubs (probably made of birch wood) who were able to keep the advantage of the initiative.



there should have been footprints of the attackers,........... Do you think the wind erased those tracks by covering with snow ?

   ••• Between 2 February and the arrival of the rescuers on 26 February the wind had had time to blow and cover with snow the corpses and almost all the footprints (according to the hazards of Fluid Mechanics applied to cold air).
   

I find it peculiar that only the "8 or 9" footprints remained unobscured by snow.

   ••• It is not surprising that some rare footprints remain for a long time and that other footprints, on the contrary, are completely erased and covered by the snow.
See also :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=614.msg8825#msg8825

Teddy  :   General Discussion / Experiment with raised tracks  -   April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM »



the skiers were able to make a fire... then for some time that means they were free from attack.

Why do you think the assaillants left them near the cedar un-attacked ?

Here are the main lines of the description of the night of February 1 to 2, 1959 according to my hypothesis N°2.
To facilitate the reading I have added precisions and details which are probable but imaginary, therefore without importance for the general comprehension.

  First of all here are 2 observations:
1°)
The attackers had long been mentally prepared for this deadly fight and had the advantage of initiative.
The attackers had adopted a skilful and powerful tactic: a succession of surprise offensives followed by temporary retreats.
The attackers were properly dressed and suffered little or no pain from the cold, unlike the hikers who were slowed down by the cold.
The attackers had good shoes (or boots) and could move in total darkness faster (or less slowly) than hikers over uneven terrain covered with snow and rocks.
 
2°)
As Per Inge Oestmoen pointed out
To kill, it is sufficient to first stun the victim with a blow (preferably) on the head. Then, if no one comes to warm or rescue the unconscious victim, he or she will finally freeze to death, more or less slowly.

   INITIAL ATTACK on February 1, 1959
8.00 pm Surprise introduction inside the tent of an Improvised Suffocating Device that emits SO² gas
8.02 pm leaving the tent by the nine suffocating hikers.
8.03 pm the attackers scream (but this is a sneaky war trick): the asphyxiating gases are arriving let us all flee quickly to the nearby forest.
The attackers jostle the hikers a bit to encourage them to go down the slope towards the forest.

8.13 pm Kolmogorova begins to think that the attackers are completely fooling the hikers, who will soon freeze to death if they don't get back to the tent quickly.
 

FIRST OFFENSIVE
8.17 pm Kolmogorova is knocked out, (although not fatally wounded), 950 m from the tent (and will never get up again).
8.19 pm Slobodin is knocked out 1050 m from the tent (and will never get up again).
8.20 pm The attackers stop going down because they are being exhausted by the punches they have received.
     The other 7 hikers continue walking to reach the forest which is close by and where the (icy) wind does not blow.
  End of the first offensive


8.40 pm At the foot of the cedar the 7 hikers who are still standing are concerting to each other and do not venture to go back up to the tent immediately.
       Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonoschenko decide that it is first necessary to light a fire so as not to freeze to death.
       Tibo, Kolevatov and Zolotaryov, because they are more politically aware, prefer to be less visible and less noticeable. They also fear that Dubinina has talked too much (about Stalin...) at Vizhay and therefore that Dubinina is in danger.
9.10 pm The fire is lit while the 4 from the den go into hiding a little further away.
11.10 pm Dyatlov decides to cautiously go back up to the tent hoping not to be spotted (because the wind is strong), to find out what happened to Kolmogorova and Slobodin.

SECOND OFFENSIVE
11.15 pm Dyatlov is detected by attackers 300 m from the cedar tree
11.20 pm Dyatlov is knocked out.
11.25 pm Dyatlov's ankles are tied to make sure he is completely neutralized.
 End of the second offensive

THIRD OFFENSIVE
11.35 pm Doroshenko is stunned alone, as Krinonishenko has climbed on the cedar to try to see Dyatlov (who is also unconscious and immobilized by ankle ties 300 m from the cedar).
11.40 pm Krinonishenko is pulled down of the cedar. The attackers begin to torture Krinonishenko by placing one of his leg in the fire to make him tell where the four of the den are hidden.
12.10 pm Krinonishenko who did not speak is left at the foot of the cedar completely unconscious. The attackers go back up to the tent to rest and wait patiently for further events...
 End of the third offensive

FOURTH OFFENSIVE, february 2, 1959
5.10 am the four from the den come out of the den and find Doroshenko and Krinonishenko dead
5.30 am The attackers who had gone down to watch the cedar area (because the moon was up at the time) stunned one by one the 4 hikers who had survived, but who had not remained strictly grouped together.
5.40 am End of the confusing and heated fighting between the cedar and the den. To symbolically celebrate their victory and to free themselves from intense nervous tension, the attackers hit the corpses lying on the ground, breaking a few bones (skulls and ribs), tearing out a few eyes and cutting out the tongue of the Stalinist Dubinina with a small knife so that, even though she is dead, she will no longer be able to symbolically spout his infamous propaganda...
6.20 The work is finished, the 4 corpses are slid into the small depression formed by the snow-covered ravine.
 End of the fourth offensive and victory of the attackers


how do you explain the lack of hit marks on Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko ?
 

   •••   But there are some very visible marks of blows on the bodies: ("...bruise...bruises...pink and brown-red bruise...brusing abrasions...dark red abrasions....brown-red abrasions.....abrasion in pale red color..........brown red graze....hemorrhages......etc")
Look at the autopsy reports that can be accessed from the page 
     
https://dyatlovpass.com/death


  and also look at :
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?lid=1

 In the case of the four of the den the statements were difficult to establish because the bodies were rotten and it was instead recorded:
"lack of soft tissues ....missing soft tissues..."


in theory, there should have been footprints of the attackers when they left the scene for good. Why aren't there any other footprints ?

   ••• It is really a matter of randomness in the sense that these are unpredictable phenomena in practice. Fluid Mechanics can explain theoretically that air currents were and are unpredictable under the DPI conditions.

The wind blows strongly and for a long time on an irregular slope. Some traces remain, others become harder and more visible and most of the traces disappear completely.

Note that the attackers did not try to dissimulate the footprints or battle tracks. The attackers were right to know that it was completely useless as the rescuers would not arrive for several days.

Look also at :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=614.0

Teddy   Experiment with raised tracks      April 11, 2020, 12:03:49 AM


the Dyatlov Group was following a mansi hunter trail.


   ••• Dyatlov's group diary   , 29.1.59
 "...We walked along a Mansi trail. ..."
 Kolmogorova diary     ,  29.1.59  :
"...Along the Auspiya Mansi have passed. A trail is visible, grooves, a path is visible. We often see Mansi signs on the trail. I wonder what they write about? Now the Mansi trail goes South..."
 Kolmogorova diary     ,  30.2.59  :
"...We go on Auspiya... Mansi trail ended. Pine forest. There was sun in the morning, now is cold (ayserm). All day long we walked along Auspiya. Will spend the night on a Mansi trail. Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today. Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket. He cursed a lot. Today, probably, we will build a storage....".

So the hikers followed one or two Mansi tracks in the snow for a few kilometers (because it is easier to move forward when the snow is already packed). But theses tracks, probably left a few days before by one or more Mansi hunters, did not suit them because this or these track(s) extended in the wrong direction, for instance to the south.


They actually encountered a hunter at one point.


   ••• The hikers encountered no one other than the silhouette that impressed the film on Tibo's camera. There are at least 4 explanations for photo N°17 :

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg)

  a) • It was Tibo himself who made a small staging using a time delay trigger (Tibo wanted to bring back from his vacation in the Ural Mountains a funny, spectacular picture....
See :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=382.msg9404#msg9404

PJ: Murdered > Resistance goup maybe?    ---> June 03, 2020, 04:49:34 PM Reply #35
        "...it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo..."
See also :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=324.0


 b) •  He was a human being who was a bit mysterious because he disappeared immediately and just happened to be there.
 c) •  He was an attacker who was chasing the hikers following the trail left by the hikers. The attackers waited until the hikers had reached a bare slope because they feared that in a forest the hikers could hide behind the trees.
 d) •  It is not a human being, it is a kind of hypothetical great ape called Yeti. See the Yeti/Snowman board
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=24.0



Could the attackers escape unobserved by the Mansi people ?


   ••• The Mansi were few in number and their settlement or camp was located in the north, far from the Dyatlov Pass.
I think it is reasonable to assume that there were no Mansi in the area around February 1, 1959.


they required several days of pursuit, and several days to come back to North2


      •  The hikers progressed slowly because:
   The hikers often advanced through soft, virgin snow and searched for the right route, which slowed them down.
   The hikers carried rucksacks that were heavy.
   The hilkers were on their holidays and wanted to have fun and rest.
   The hilkers wanted to come back from their holidays in good condition to continue their studies, which was important to them.
      •  On the contrary, the attackers were much faster because :
   They were following tracks where the snow was already packed and they had no need to look for directions.
   The attackers carried light rucksacks (containing a birch wood bludgeon and some food).
   The attackers considered that their holy duty was to succeed at all costs in their mission to destroy and exterminate these 9 representatives of the Soviet communist oppression.

Below are my estimates for the travel times of the attackers (approximate estimates given as a rough guide)

9 hours to get from North-2 to the tent, because you have to go up in altitude.
6 hours to get from the tent to North-2, because there is a decrease in altitude (higher average speed of skiers) ,

I have two typical versions for the timing, but obviously there are possibly some variations.

 •• Hypothesis N°2-A - (attack settled in 2 days: luck favours the attackers).

 * February 1st = 7am::departure from North-2 >>> 4pm::arrival at 300 m from the hikers on the slope of Kholat Syakhl >>> 8pm::start of the "altercation" (in fact fight to the death)
 * February 2nd = 6am::end of the "altercation" >>> 7am::return to the tent and rest inside [during 6 hours] >>> 1pm::departure from the tent (before leaving the tent the attackers cut the canvas with a small knife) >>> 7pm:arrival at North-2

 •• Hypothesis N°2-B - (attack settled in 4 days: the attackers are slightly wounded but still valid).

 * January 31nd = 7am::Departure from North-2 >>> 3pm::Arrival in sight of the hikers (photo N°17??) >>> Night of bivouac (without tent) in the forest under the Dyatlov pass1  *  * February 1st = 2pm::start in pursuit of the hikers >>> 5pm arrival at 300 m from the platform under construction on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl >>> 8pm::start of the altercation(in fact fight to the death)
 * February 2nd = 6am::end of "the altercation" >>> 7am::back to the tent to rest inside for a longtime  because they are very tired and sore : during 27 hours]
 * February 3rd =10am::tent departure (before leaving the tent the attackers cut the canvas with a small knife) >>> 7pm:arrival at North-2 (attackers are moving slower )


Some multiple days onto which they could have been spotted.

   ••• The various police forces in the Soviet Union were sufficiently occupied with surveillance and collecting the information from indicators in cities and towns.
Away from the frontiers, there was very little surveillance of the immensity of the Siberian taiga (except perhaps in the event of a major escape from a Gulag camp in the area of interest).

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sarapuk on July 05, 2020, 04:21:19 PM
Quoting Jean Daniel Reuss. 

''The attackers stop going down because they are being exhausted by the punches they have received''.

This is just one of the apparent contradictions I have seen.  Jean, you suggest that the attackers are armed. By that I take it we are to believe that the attackers were fairly heavily armed or they wouldnt have decided to attack in the first place.  But then you suggest that the attackers become exhausted because of the fightback by the Dyatlov Group.  A Group who are barely dressed and ill equipped for the outside freezing temperatures and who are carrying no weapons. That just doesnt make sense.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 06, 2020, 10:48:15 AM
Answer  to above     Reply #35

Thank you very much for your judicious questions which will allow me to modify my hypothesis N°2 to improve it.
But I agree with you: there is no irrefutable proof.
When a better explanation of DPI will appear, only then will I start my hypothesis N°3.

The attackers stop going down....

   ....For several reasons:
 • Part of the attackers' tactics was to scatter the hikers so they could fight, defeat and kill them one by one if possible.
Thus, after leaving the tent in groups, the hikers were skillfully forced, incited by blows, to move away from each other.
After stunning Slobobin, (about 1050 m away from the tent to fix the ideas), which kept several attackers engaged for several minutes, the attackers
could no longer see the hikers
: a few small trees and complete darkness.

 • Handling a heavy blunt object to hit hard is physically tiring.

 • Moving quickly in all directions in the dark on sloping ground covered with snow and rocks is physically tiring.

 • Running, jumping to dodge a counterattack, stumbling, getting up, falling, getting up again is physically exhausting.

 • Bruising and pain reduce performance.

 • The mental strain and nervous fatigue in this kind of merciless combat is tremendous.

 • After 20 - 40 minutes of intense and violent hand-to-hand combat the attackers as well as the hikers were exhausted and unable to continue fighting.
The hikers managed to regroup at the foot of the cedar tree (without knowing what had happened to the 2 absentees: Kolmogorova and Slobodin).
Attackers went back up the slope to the tent - It is possible that a lamp was left by the attackers near the tent to help locate it

 • Both attackers and hikers knew, or intuitively perceived, that it is futile to continue disorderly fighting with uncertain outcomes. It is preferable to temporarily suspend action in order to evaluate the situation, regroup one's forces, and consider a possibly more organized attack at a later moment.


were fairly heavily armed.

 • I have no sufficient knowledge of the English language and I can not appreciate te meaning the expression "fairly heavily armed".

 • I do not know if a piece of wood can be called a heavy weapon.

 • You should ask Per Inge Oestmoen who is an expert in jiu jitsu what he thinks about it!

 • It seems to me that the advantage of a blunt object, 1m to 1.5m in length, is that it is longer than an arm and so one can hope to keep the opponent at a sufficient distance so that he cannot grab you.

 • Another advantage of a birch wood blunt object is that it is free, easy to carve as there are many birch trees of adequate dimensions in the taiga around Vizhay.

 • According to my hypothesis N°2 the superiority of the attackers was not great because it took 10 hours (1 February, 8pm <--> 2 February, 6am) for the attackers to defeat the hickers (The superiority of the attackers came rather from surprise, tactics, clothing...).


fightback by the Dyatlov Group...barely dressed and ill equipped...

See
General Discussion > what resistance to freezing cold, can man hold it without clothes?
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=646.0

  1) - During the first hour (8 am - 9 am) the hikers were probably not too slowed down by the cold as they all wore some clothes.
 - Being admitted that certain clothes initially worn by Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were later used by the 4 of the den.
 Teddy = Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=620.0

  2) - Hikers were at risk of frostbite on their feet, which does not detract too much from performance, as many climbers have had their feet frozen with subsequent amputation without noticing it immediately.
In fact, it seems that Dyatlov asked all of his comrades every evening to look at their feet to make sure that there was not a change in colour indicating the beginning of frostbite, which was a wise precaution demonstrating Dyatlov's skill.

  3) - Finally the hickers were nine in good physical condition, but I do not know how many the attackers were.
In a video in Russian - which I understood almost nothing despite the French subtitles -  there is, it seems to me, an allusion to only 3 attackers.


Two additional arguments to point out that the attackers did not have firearms

   1/ •••
Autopsy reports on the fist wounds of several hikers suggest that they and Kolmogorova defended themselves by striking.

Imagine that you threaten a person with a loaded gun and order him or her to "go down the slope".
But at that moment the person threatened, instead of obeying you, rushes at you and punches you in the face with big blows.
If at that moment you do not pull the trigger, it is because you are an very exceptional human being !!!

   2/ •••
   Vietnamka =  Murder Indead   ---> January 23, 2019, 10:40:55 PM   :  Reply #61
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg3058#msg3058

 the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have fire weapons
Gun circulation was strictly controlled in the USSR and satellite countries,
...........  we can exclude some categories of people attacker did not belong to :
1) solders (army, KGB).
2) hunters  ( hunters)  -  and each hunting weapon is listed and its owner is registered.
3) organized criminal groups or bandits   - because nothing important was stolen from the hikers who moreover were not rich.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: RidgeWatcher on July 07, 2020, 02:02:20 PM
Mr. Reuss, Thank you for your very though out post. It makes much more sense to me now how the attack/attacks could have been carried out. I do believe that Dubinina said to much and her diary entries revealed this knowledge, unconsciously, with her uncustomary angst and anxiety. She was young, strong and brave but opinionated at age 21.

The Dalai Lama: A smart person knows what to say. A wise person knows whether to say it or not.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 12, 2020, 03:45:51 PM
............. I do believe that Dubinina said to much and her diary entries revealed this knowledge, unconsciously, with her uncustomary angst and anxiety. She was young, strong and brave but opinionated at age 21.
The Dalai Lama: A smart person knows what to say. A wise person knows whether to say it or not.

     You have discovered an excellent sentence of a psychological nature that applies well to the situation of hikers arriving unexpectedly at Vizhay in an environment that was not friendly and perhaps even hostile.
However, to be equitable it should be pointed out that the Dalai Lama had much more time and luck (than Dubinina) to benefit from conditions favourable to the acquisition of great wisdom.

Besides, Dubinina was not wrong to express some discontent because the hikers had not been very welcoming in Vizhay :

            See Kandr and Lechtenfeld :

https://dyatlovpass.com/dubininas-premonition?lid=1

   • Obligation to go to a so-called hotel with 4 beds, (or even one according to another source), for 10 people .
   • In a room where the window could not be closed, while the outside temperature was -17°C.
   • While the firewood, which had been provided to the hikers to make the fire and cook, had been deliberately made wet.

According to Aleks Kandr a more important factor could have been that Dyatlov did not realize that enemies of the Soviet regime could exist among the inhabitants of Vizhay.

Indeed : " Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.e from the leadership of the settlement-colony.

   Thus the hikers appeared as to be official representatives of the Soviet government in the eyes of some anti-communist people living in the Vizhay region.

I interpret Sabine Lechtenfeld's article by saying that Dubinina, with her great feminine intuition, was more or less consciously, affected by a deaf but violent hostility on the part of certain people (in Vizhay more than in Settlement 41, it seems).

 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°


I began to study Aleks Kandr's hypothesis, which supposes that a commander in the Vizhay region hired three professional mercenary killers - presumably known criminals - thus ex-zeks freed, from 1953, by the decisions of Nikita Krushchev.

   But Aleks Kandr writes in Russian and I have great difficulty in translating and understanding him correctly.

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova

What is certain is that the hypothesis expressed by Eduard Tumanov ("hikers took part in a fight, ... with outsiders") and in sum developed with some variants by Aleks Kandr, Per Inge Oestermoen, then myself (under the name of hypothesis N°2) has the merit of being able to explain everything with great ease.

   For example it seems then obvious that the tent was cut by the attackers who had rested inside (on the morning of February 2), after the successful massacre of the 9 hikers and before leaving quietly for Vizhay (following the traces left on the way).

   Taking into account the very damaged metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints of (1°) Kolmogorova,  (2°) Slobodin,  (3°) Dyatlov and  (4°) Krivonoschenko (who certainly had not struck in the void) it can be deduced that when the attackers came back they had suspicious bruises on their faces....
..............

           To be continued

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: RidgeWatcher on July 12, 2020, 09:28:14 PM
I am really enjoying your hypothesis. I do believe the attackers came from Vishay.

I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage. The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched, even though they would have been easier to track, follow and attack in a timelier manor. The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.

I have asked this before on this forum: During the investigation inhabitants of Settlement 41 and 2nd Northern would have been questioned. Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area, especially along the rivers, while traveling through Settlement 41 or 2nd Northern (if anyone was there) they would have been noticed, animals would have barked, cried and whined, even at night. Tracks and scents would have been left. There would have been witnesses. The Mansi hunters would be able to tell, especially, around their hunting areas if tracks or signs were from the Dyatlov group or the attacker group. I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.

What did Yuri Yudin see?
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 13, 2020, 09:25:43 AM

..........................................
I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage.
..........................................


The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched...

It is Blinov's group. I have not found much information on the Blinov Group. I have only learned that :

 • Blinov's group (which had 15 members ? ) stayed in Vizhay less time than Dyatlov's group.

 • That Blinov, as the leader of the group, did not possess, or did not exhibit :
         "a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Blinov group .... ", unlike Dyatlov.


The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.

 • I also think the fresh tracks left by the hikers were deep and perfectly visible.
 • So the tracks were very easy to follow to the tent by day and by night. The attackers could not lose the track and were therefore sure to find the tent by continuing to ski until the end of the track.

 
Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area...

        I tend to think that you misrepresent daily life in these faraway regions.

  a) - There is a low population density in the taiga, which (often) is not a forbidden zone. People can move around, under certain conditions, without being closely watched: Mansi hunters (with a valid authorization to carry a hunting rifle), Russian hunters (with a valid authorization to carry a hunting rifle), loggers, longshoremen, foresters, geologists, prospectors, cartographers, practicing soldiers, tourists and walkers...

Under normal circumstances, there is no reason to be particularly concerned about the passage of an individual or group.

If, for one reason or another, someone wanted to be undetected by the loggers of Settlement 41, all they had to do was to drive a few kilometers away from the settlement (because on skis you can go anywhere) taking into account the direction of the wind to be sure not to be felt by the dogs.

  b) - The usual work of the policemen, or KGB agents is done in heated offices with telephone, files, summons, interrogations, official reports...etc.
KGB agents cannot and will not waste their time skiing in the Taiga.


I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.

See :
https://dyatlovpass.com/korotaev

       Kirilenko summoned Korotaev to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained :

"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."

According to my hypothesis N°2, the KGB quickly understood that the suspicions had to be focused, not on the Mansis, but on the ex-Zeks, which then directly interested Khrushchev.

Indeed, part of the internal social difficulties of the USSR between 1953 and 1964 were due to the very poor organisation of the mass release of prisoners from the Gulag camps, releases which had been wanted and imposed by Khrushchev himself.

Khrushchev's close collaborators were given instructions that could look like this:

   - Obviously these were not words that were really uttered, but only to give a rudimentary idea of the situation. -

Khrushchev told his collaborators: " You can see that I have a lot of work and worries with President Einsenhower, Gomulka in Poland, Janos Kadar in Hungary, the Chechens, the Chinese...and many other very important and challenging problems."
     So please get out of my way so that I can get rid of this little matter as quickly as possible.

Which was done as early as May 28, 1959...


What did Yuri Yudin see ?

Nothing important for researchers. He left his 9 friends at North-2 on January 28, 1959 when everything was fine, except for his own sciatica. Then he saw the coffins of his 9 dead friends again and he was very sad.

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: RidgeWatcher on July 14, 2020, 10:17:02 PM
Khrushchev told his collaborators: " You can see that I have a lot of work and worries with President Einsenhower, Gomulka in Poland, Janos Kadar in Hungary, the Chechens, the Chinese...and many other very important and challenging problems. So please get out of my way so that I can get rid of this little matter as quickly as possible.

Again, Thank you for your Hypothesis #2. I can see this happening with surmounting problems at the time that all needed to be resolved.

So the problem that was, became the problem that was no longer, so problem solved and no longer is there a problem.

So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area? Isn't this what Krushchev would want to know, in the end?
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Georgi on July 16, 2020, 06:38:59 PM
I am really enjoying your hypothesis. I do believe the attackers came from Vishay.

I also think it was "things said" by the Dyatlov Ski Tourists that produced anger, hatred and not to mention a murderous rage. The control group from the University that skied west was left untouched, even though they would have been easier to track, follow and attack in a timelier manor. The attackers followed, silently the Dyatlov group.

I have asked this before on this forum: During the investigation inhabitants of Settlement 41 and 2nd Northern would have been questioned. Attackers could not have gone unnoticed while traveling to the Dyatlov Pass area, especially along the rivers, while traveling through Settlement 41 or 2nd Northern (if anyone was there) they would have been noticed, animals would have barked, cried and whined, even at night. Tracks and scents would have been left. There would have been witnesses. The Mansi hunters would be able to tell, especially, around their hunting areas if tracks or signs were from the Dyatlov group or the attacker group. I believe this part of the investigation was hidden from the public view.

What did Yuri Yudin see?

Really depends on the motive, if they were followed from the beginning there would be different circumstances and more chances of witnesses vs if they were followed from mid point of the journey because the hikers were in a confrontation or witnessed something they shouldn't have. As for Mansi witnesses? If the killers were from one organization or another whether on official business or not the Mansi hunters would not talk out of fear of retaliation whether from the individuals or the government at large. If they start pointing fingers at someone connected to the government it would have been all too easy for the government to find them guilty for the deaths of the hikers and deal with them in any number of unpleasant ways. In their place I would be quiet.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Georgi on July 16, 2020, 06:44:55 PM


So the problem that was, became the problem that was no longer, so problem solved and no longer is there a problem.

So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area? Isn't this what Krushchev would want to know, in the end?

If that was who committed the crime, it would make sense, the soviet authorities shut down the are for tourists for a couple of years, they send in some of their Special Forces to hunt down the killers and kill them, no court, no press, no fanfare. Once killed bury them in an unmarked grave and 60 years later even if dug up there would be no connection between the Dyatlov group and the unidentified dead people in a grave out in the middle of nowhere.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 24, 2020, 02:02:43 PM


          Part 1

     Three answers in : Theories Discussion -> Altercation on the pass -> Altercation on the pass

  •••  RidgeWatcher   : July 14, 2020, 10:17:02 PM    Reply #41 
"...So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath .... with equally dangerous friends....had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder. Wouldn't the local police force and intelligence be able to narrow this down easily? Do you think the murderer and his friends might have been eliminated by the powers that be in that area ?..."
                             See further in Part 2 where I explain that I now consider 2 related hypotheses.

 • Hypothesis N°2 ===> The ex-zeks anti communists were careful not to be noticed and to remain in the strict legality to be able to possibly launch a surprise action if it appeared an opportune moment.
 • Hypothesis N°2-bis ===> On the contrary, the Stalinist notables opposed to Khrushchev's reforms, like some leaders in the Gulag, were like powerful lords in their distant oblast and they taunted the central power of Moscow.

  •••    Georgi  : July 16, 2020, 06:38:59 PM    Reply #42
" As for Mansi witnesses ? If the killers were from one organization or another whether on official business or not the Mansi hunters would not talk out of fear of retaliation whether from the individuals or the government at large. If they start pointing fingers at someone connected to the government it would have been all too easy for the government to find them guilty for the deaths of the hikers and deal with them in any number of unpleasant ways. In their place I would be quiet."
                Yes ! That is well said !
 A Mansi hunter or reindeer herder must have been thinking: I will let the Russians sort out their business among themselves. That is none of my business. I did not see anything, I did not hear anything, and I am not going to get too inquisive.

  •••    Georgi :   July 16, 2020, 06:44:55 PM    Reply #43
       "...to hunt down the killers and kill them, no court, no press, no fanfare...."
The KGB has certainly identified the killers but we do not know when: (a) After February 6, 1959 (questionable date on a sheet)? - (b)After 17 March 1959(Korotaev is fired)?  - (c) After 8 May 1959(the last 4 bodies are found)? - (d)-After May 28, 1959(case closed)? - (e)-Long after ?
And then arrest - extensive interrogations - execution... The bodies of the murderers could even be sent to a crematorium and reduced to ashes so that no trace remains.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

                Part 2

  •••  Aleks Kandr has written in Russian (in Russian!: unluckily for me) a complete and plausible reconstitution of the DPI. I am convinced that there is a lot of truth in Aleks Kandr's hypotheses and I "adopt" them partially under the name of Hypothesis N°2-bis
       
Quote

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-2
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

In a nutshell, I now consider 2 neighbouring hypotheses, the main difference between the two is the "WHO". That is to say that the attackers were :
 • For:  Hypothesis N°2 ====> A few foreign ex-zeks and patriots from countries suffering from Soviet oppression who had not yet been allowed (or able) to leave the Vizhay region.
 • For:  Hypothesis N°2-bis ====> A few Stalinist Russians opposed to the reforms which had become more pronounced since the XXth (1956) Congress of the Communist Party in 1956 who lived in the Vizhay region.
 


  •••  A little more explanation on "WHO", "WHY", "HOW", here:
Quote
Theories Discussion  -> Murdered -> Murder Indead
   Re: Murder Indead July 22, 2020, 03:27:13 PM      Reply #141
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg10194#msg10194
   My answer to : Morski  If we go for the "must be a murder" theory, few of the main questions I see reasonable are :
       (---> Questionss equivalent to  "WHO",  "WHY", "HOW")


  •••  Nobody had any premonition, but there was however a clue for the "WHY", read here :   
Personne n'a eu de prémonition, mais il y a eu quand même un indice pour le "WHY", lire ici :   
Quote
    Victims and Case Files -> Victims -> Lyudmila Dubinina -> Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death       July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM      Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160
   My answers to : Teddy, Sabine Lechtenfeld, BottleBrunette


   •••  Some useful clues to reconstruct the timeline of the altercation:
Quote
   Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> Clothes
Vietnamka  March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583

Vietnamka explains his reasoning on the clothes found on the 9 corpses.

I infer from it
(solid hypothesis) that 1°:Kolmogorova, 2°:Slobodin, 3°:Dyatlov were knocked out (thus killed) while going down the slope of Kholat Syakhl.
(Vietnamka writes only : "Did they die first ? While descending ?")
In other words, 20 minutes after leaving the tent, Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov were already lying inanimate in the snow and would soon freeze to death.

But then the 3 attackers or killers did not know where the other 6 hikers who had disappeared in the dark were.
Then the 3 attackers climbed back up the slope and rested in the tent.

 Later, around midnight, fire under the cedar tree allowed the attackers to find Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. To find out where the other 4 hikers were hiding, the attackers tortured Krivonischenko who did not speak and did not scream.

Around 6 am the darkness being less deep, the attackers located the 4 of the den, attacked them and defeated them. To celebrate their victory, the attackers cut out some body parts from the defeated ones.
   Vietnamka thinks that "Kolevatov dies after the two Juris, but clearly before Tibo and Zolotaryov."

 
  •••   It is alecsandros that raises the most important and difficult question which is the hurried exit from the tent. 
Quote
      Theories Discussion -> Altercation on the pass -> Altercation on the pass
alecsandros   June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM      Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
 "why did not the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?"
 
                  Be patient it will be for soon...

   
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: RidgeWatcher on July 26, 2020, 05:34:30 PM
Mr. Reuss, I appreciate your post and it could all be logically possible. My one question would be the KSD group, weren't there some clothing exchanged on them? Which means they possibly did make it to the Cedar tree with the entire group in general.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on July 27, 2020, 01:31:34 AM
I think the hikers  found on the slope were wearing their own clothes and maybe some of Yudin's.  Those found in the creek seem to be wearing Lyuda's George"s and Yuri"s clothes (besides their own).  From what I have been able to ascertain, so far, is that a number of (if not all) the clothes found laying about were Lyuda"s. There was one pair of pants still  in the tent.  Zina"s top two pairs of pants were undone as if someone had been trying to remove them, maybe for the purpose of wearing them also in an attempt to stay warm.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on August 09, 2020, 02:34:25 PM

---> Reply #45
..... My one question would be the KSD group, weren't there some clothing exchanged on them? Which means they possibly did make it to the Cedar tree with the entire group in general.   

  ---> Reply #46
....  Those found in the creek seem to be wearing Lyuda's George"s and Yuri"s clothes (besides their own).  From what I have been able to ascertain, so far, is that a number of (if not all) the clothes found laying about were Lyuda"s. There was one pair of pants still  in the tent..............

 Since January 28th the clothes could be exchanged between the 9 hikers without Yuri Yudin or anyone else knowing.
    Moreover WAB explained that the quilted jackets had the disadvantage of being very combustible and being sometimes accidentally destroyed by fire.
    Due to the fact that Krivonischenko's quilted jacket had burned the hikers certainly made one or more new shares of the clothes available in the group.
But it seems impossible to know at what times or what moment the clothing sharing took place.
                               
 Rustem Slobodin put on the burnt quilted jacket that belonged to Yuri Krivonischenko and posed for the photo.

   
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-30.jpg)

You can also read this post from WAB which gives us more detailed explanations.

WAB : General Discussion / Re: What's The Worst Thing They Could Do?  =>  on: May 08, 2018, 04:06:25 PM  --->   Reply #3
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=172.msg744#msg744

" It is absolutely everyday occurence on similar travel at that time - 60 years ago.
Sitting at a fire, it is difficult to follow when the small piece of coal will get on such jacket which "TELOGREIKA (in Russan) - Padded jacket" is called. It is from words "to heat a body" (to keep heat more precisely).
          The padded jacket consists of a cotton cloth outside and from within, and its interiors consist of cotton cotton wool. When the piece of coal will get to it, it starts to smoulder. To extinguish it it is impossible. It is possible to remove only a piece of cotton wool which smoulder. But it be removed should only completely.
............................
That is my old padded jacket where the small piece of coal has got, but was possible to find at once this place and to remove a smoulder piece.
 My piece of coal has got in front, therefore it was possible to find at once. If it gets behind (Rustem could sit a back to a fire) it would be found out very much late.
In a padded jacket it is visible nothing, therefore to find place which burns is almost impossible. It is especially difficult, if long it is not possible to define that already there is a process to smoulder. Therefore such padded jackets burn out very big pieces. "


 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°


The action of attackers (we can also say: murderers, terrorists...) allows us to explain simply the totality of the questions that have arisen concerning the "HOW ?" of the DPI.
 
For example: After resting inside the intact tent on February 2, the attackers slightly damaged the tent, which had become useless to them, before setting off again towards North-2, following the trail left by the hikers from North-2.

Putting myself in this topic of the " altercation ", I am rather in favour of a scenario in which the 3 hikers found dead on the slope (Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Dyatlov) were knocked out on the way down.

Under this hypothesis, there would have been only 6 hikers who could have reached the cedar (and later separated in : 2 to take care of the fire - 4 to hide in the Den).

My argument is that if, on the contrary, the 9 hikers had been able to meet alive at the bottom of the cedar, then they would have separated as little as possible. That is to say that in the case of an attempt to go back up to the tent all those who were physically able to do so would have remained strictly grouped to fight or ... die together.
(Leaving or "abandoning" eventual or possible injured people near the fire or in the Den) .

During the legendary sword fighting of the Horaces and the Curiaces, the 3 Curiaces made the mistake of separating, which allowed the single Horace, who was fleeing from them, to defeat them one after the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatii_and_Curiati

Naturally there is no irrefutable evidence on all those unimportant details about the hand-to-hand fightings that took place on the night of 1 to 2 February 1959.

Have a look for example:

 • Clacon :  General Discussion / Order of deaths
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=416.0

 • Teddy  :  General Discussion / Why did Rustem Slobodin die first?
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=96.0

 • Marchesk  :  General Discussion / Timing of leaving the tent and deaths based on the watch evidence, ( August 07, 2020 )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=697.0

 • And also my recent little summary ( August 04, 2020 )
In topic : The Stove / Re: Why they didn't unpack and light the stove? --> Reply #6
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=691.msg10392#msg10392
  Part 3.   and  Part 4.


For me, the human cause of DPI being clearly established,  there are many more interesting questions waiting for us now : WHO ? and   WHY ?

    ••   Local Russian stalinist oligarchs opposed to the khrushchev thaw  ?  (Aleks Kandr)
    ••   Ex-zeks, under house arrest, and patriots from satellite countries suffering from Soviet oppression ?
    ••   ...........................???
   
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on August 10, 2020, 01:47:21 AM
In reading Zina's diary, date 29.1.59, "Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket."  Zina was quite upset with Yuri.  He had apparently broke off his relationship with her and she was jealous of the other girls he was spending time with (see the section on this forum titled "Zina's Letters"). I don't know about in the Russian language, but in English when you make a statement like the one above, the "I" is usually understood.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on August 10, 2020, 02:51:13 AM
I do believe there may have been some kind of altercation among some of the hikers based on some of their injuries.  And something else that bothers me a lot is that if you look at the clothes being worn by the hikers at their death, Lyuda either went down to the ravine wearing only a tee shirt, shirt, one sweater and only tights (no pants at all) and she had to strip George of his ruined pants and maybe a sweater or she went down to the ravine with her share of clothes and she was either asked to give up some or she was forced to give them up.  In the first case it seems odd that three guys fairly well dressed (maybe even wearing some of her clothes) would not share some with her and the second case speaks for its self.  So, please, if someone can explain this, do.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Georgi on August 13, 2020, 10:03:51 PM
  Zina"s top two pairs of pants were undone as if someone had been trying to remove them, maybe for the purpose of wearing them also in an attempt to stay warm.
She was significantly far away from the rest of the hikers that anyone of them trying to remove her clothing is unlikely.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on August 21, 2020, 04:06:15 PM

   Reply #48
In reading Zina's diary, date 29.1.59, "Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket."  Zina was quite upset with Yuri. ........... I don't know about in the Russian language, but in English when you make a statement like the one above, the "I" is usually understood.

Are you saying that Kolmogorova deliberately destroyed some very useful warm clothes ?
It is unlikely because it does not seem consistent with everything we know about Kolmogorova's mentality.

   Reply #49
I do believe there may have been some kind of altercation among some of the hikers based on some of their injuries.  And something else that bothers me a lot is that if you look at the clothes being worn by the hikers at their death...

A fight between the hikers resulting in serious injuries would only have been possible under the action of a powerful drug. 
And a laboratory of the Soviet army could have taken the initiative to test a new psychotropic product poorly known through Zolotaryov .
   See : Altercation on the pass , February 03, 2020, 02:04:13 PM  ---> Reply #15
   https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8382#msg8382

I am now eliminating that hypothes because it is very improbable that Soviet army laboratories improvised a test incorporating civilians (non-military Soviet citizens).
  See : Altercation on the pass ,  March 24, 2020, 04:07:07 PM     ---> Reply #18
  https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8762#msg8762

   Reply #50
  Zina"s top two pairs of pants were undone as if someone had been trying to remove them, maybe for the purpose of wearing them also in an attempt to stay warm.
She was significantly far away from the rest of the hikers that anyone of them trying to remove her clothing is unlikely.

With the hypothesis of the intervention of attackers capable of killing the 9 hikers, gouging out eyes and cutting out a tongue, almost all unanswered questions get a natural explanation. It was the attackers who, after defeating the hickers, without tiring, tortured Krivonischenko by burning, turned over the bodies of the moribunds, placed a camera around Zoloratyov's neck, cut the tent... etc.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

 ••• North-2 may have been a starting base for the attackers....See :
SteveCalley : General Discussion => Second Severniye, February 25, 2018, 10:15:18 PM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=109.msg294#msg294
(Note Steve Calley's error: at North-2, there were 25 houses in 1959, some without roofs, not 2000).
North-2, more or less refurbished, is (briefly) visible in several videos of recent expeditions.


 ••• The slope of the Kholat Shyakhl could give the hikers a false impression of loneliness and isolation and thus of security. In fact it was enough for an average, lightly loaded Siberian skier, following the tracks of the 9 hikers, to travel from North-2 to the tent in 8 hours. For the return trip from the tent to North-2, after the hikers had died, 7 hours could be enough given the decrease in altitude.

 ••• In response to the major objection of alecsandros :
   
alecsandros : Theories Discussion / Altercation on the pass / Altercation on the pass, June 26, 2020, 07:06:40 AM  --->    Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
 "why did not the members of Dyatlov Group use the axes at hand ? where they to heavily engaged (attacked) to be able to take anything for self defense ?"

(Indeed it is difficult to threaten people inside a tent with a gun, without arousing their mistrust and anxiety).

Also Mishka has found a solution which seems to me to be the best one :


 ••• Mishka General Discussion / Re: Who cut open the tent?   , August 10, 2020, 12:04:43 AM  --->  Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10439#msg10439
         ".....they heard some people arrived .................they were asked to leave the tent immediately because the place was in danger..."

I supported this idea with an imaginary statement, see:  Who cut open the tent?,  August 11, 2020, 09:10:11 AM     ---> Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10460#msg10460


 
 ••• Gipsy General Discussion / Re: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation, April 17, 2019, 03:38:42 PM  ---> Reply #36
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=421.msg5413#msg5413
"If we are discussing simple explanations and motives, when it comes to unvoluntary deaths, statistically the most likely options involve money (highly unlikely in this case) or love affair"
This is a misconception; in History, as far as "unvoluntary deaths" are concerned, war, without forgetting terrorism, which is a kind of unconventional war, is more important.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

What is intriguing is that Aleks Kandr is rarely quoted on the subject of DPI.
Aleks Kandr sets out his arguments which are admissible for his explanation of DPI on the website :

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova

Aleks Kandr is registered on   : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/
   Posts: 0 (0 per day)
   Gender:  Male
   Date Registered: October 29, 2019, 01:06:21 PM
   Last Active:     November 11, 2019, 02:23:28 AM

                      Here is a preliminary summary of my hypothesis N°3, which is directly inspired by Aleks Kandr.
 
DPI is a terrorist action commissioned by one or more senior leaders or commanders of the many Gulag camps in the Ivdel region.
This or these Stalinist commanders, who were powerful on the regional scale of the oblast, were naturally violently opposed to the policy of dismantling the Gulag ordered by Krouchtchev from 1953 (a difficult dismantling which lasted until Brezhnev came to power in 1964).

(On the internal societal unrest in the USSR caused by the massive liberation of the zeks during the Thaw (1953-1964), see, for example, but in French, the historians Nicolas Werth and Marc Élie ...).

The 9 unfortunate young hikers, Soviet and apparently completely apolitical, were bearers of a sort of official pass (the VOUCHER) designating them de facto as agents of influence sent by Moscow, in connection with the 21st Congress of the CPSU: 27 January-5 February 1959.
The 20th Congress of the CPSU in 1956 had been the official announcement of destalinization (and sanctions against some Gulag personnel).

The hired mercenaries, probably former camp guards recently put out of work, were able to easily follow the deep trail left by the 9 skiers and reach the tent in just one day's skiing from their North-2 base, to launch a surprise attack at nightfall, February 1, 1959, around 8:00 p.m.

(The 9 heavily laden hikers - the ransom for autonomy - and especially on vacation, had made slow progress with narrow skis in the snow that was very soft under the taiga trees).

The precipitous exit from the tent was the result of a diabolical ruse of war (is however not excluded a tear gas grenade introduced by surprise inside the small tent).

The originality of this terrorist attack lies above all in the fact that no firearms were used, but only wooden clubs (batons).

Part of the group was knocked out and then left inanimate on the spot at -20°C or minus, until death ensued.
The other part had a broken skull and a sunken chest, (the mercenary killers then hit harder with two-handed clubs).
Finally, as a warning sign - and with a ferocity that was not unusual among some of the Gulag's "little chiefs" - a few corpses were vandalized by having their eyes and a tongue ripped out.

Among the many political reasons for the constant smokiness of the Russian authorities from 1959 until 2020, there is also the ridiculous ineptitude of the KGB, which at the time proved incompetent and incapable of protecting nine exemplary youths from the Soviet Union.

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Squatch on August 21, 2020, 07:55:23 PM
And something else that bothers me a lot is that if you look at the clothes being worn by the hikers at their death, Lyuda either went down to the ravine wearing only a tee shirt, shirt, one sweater and only tights (no pants at all) and she had to strip George of his ruined pants and maybe a sweater or she went down to the ravine with her share of clothes and she was either asked to give up some or she was forced to give them up.  In the first case it seems odd that three guys fairly well dressed (maybe even wearing some of her clothes) would not share some with her and the second case speaks for its self.  So, please, if someone can explain this, do.

This brings up a more general topic about what happens when human beings try to survive.

When working together with other human beings increases your chance of survival, of course you do what you can to help others.

But when your actions mean that others live but you die, then you have to decide whose life is more valuable... your life or someone else's life?

This is the part of the Dyatlov Pass Incident that disturbs me more than anything else. How much voluntary sharing of clothing happened? Was there voluntary "clothes swapping" during the incident or was there selfishness and a refusal to relinquish warm clothing? I do not wish to think about this.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on August 23, 2020, 01:20:22 AM
I think I agree with you, squatch, about there MAY have been selfishness on part of some of the hikers.  Nicholas had on Lyuda's hat and coat and at least one pair of her pants was lying cut up in the snow between the cedar and den or on the floor of the den.  As cold as it was, why would she willingly do that?  It makes no sense.  If we put the clothes back on the people to whom they belong, Lyuda would have been wearing  one or two pairs of pants, a tee shirt, shirt, two sweaters, a coat and hat. That would have made Lyuda one of the better dressed hikers.  Nicholas would then have been wearing two shirts, one sweater, two pairs of pants, one cap and valenki. That does not make him one of the better dressed. Nicholas also had George's watch.

I know that this puts Nicholas in a bad light, but people can do some pretty bad things when they are faced with death.

I think the question of the clothes, if answered, could tell us about the dynamics of the group after leaving the tent.  I do not believe they killed each other, but I do believe there were  problems among (at least) some of the group members.  To believe that they all stuck together and helped each other till the end is a nice thought but that does not  necessarily make it true,

Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: sparrow on August 23, 2020, 02:00:46 AM
Hello, Jean Daniel Ruess.

Yes, I do believe that Zina burned the jacket and gloves deliberately. If we want to solve this mystery, then we must look at everything we have available including the diaries and (in this case) Zina's letters.

I am trying to look at the hikers as normal young adults.  They were not perfect.  There were some problems.
Title: Re: Altercation on the pass
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on September 15, 2020, 04:08:25 PM

   Reply #45
 My one question would be the KSD group, weren't there some clothing exchanged on them? Which means they possibly did make it to the Cedar tree with the entire group in general.

I have studied the question of clothing exchanges (or gifts) very poorly, mainly because it seems to me that agreements to give or lend clothing may have occurred on different occasions and at different times that we are unaware of. See :

 Teddy : General Discussion / Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group ->  April 29, 2020, 10:27:35 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=620.msg8896#msg8896

 Teddy :  Materials Modern / Publications / Media / Yudin's conclusions on clothing  -> September 03, 2020, 04:09:03 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=705.msg10680#msg10680
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=705.msg10682#msg10682                        Reply #1

 Vietnamka : General Discussion / Clothes  -> « on: March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM »
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=43.0
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583

For example for this unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest there could have been 3 successive gifts:

                   Yuri Yudin --> Kolevatov --> Doroshenko --> Dyatlov

  • Kolevatov gave the unbuttoned fur sleeveless vest to Doroshenko, who was less warmly dressed than him (because Doroshenko was younger and poorer than Kolevatov).
 According to my hypothesis N°3, Kolmogorova and Slobodin never reached the cedar because they were knocked out on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl a few minutes after leaving the tent.
 Remark: contrary to WAB I think that it took only 15 minutes for the 7 surviving (young, sporty and trained) hikers to reach the cedar: speed on the snowy and slippery slope = 6 kilometers per hour.

  • Then when, close to the fire and the cedar, Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were attacked, Dyatlov was able to escape and he wanted to go back up to the tent to bring back the 3 axes (and the ice axe, if there is one). But Dyatlov was caught by the attackers and knocked out after 300 meters of ascent.

    Reply #54
Yes, I do believe that Zina burned the jacket and gloves deliberately. If we want to solve this mystery, then we must look at everything we have available including the diaries and (in this case) Zina's letters.
I am trying to look at the hikers as normal young adults.  They were not perfect.  There were some problems.


1) Even if Kolmogorova "burned the jacket and gloves deliberately" this does not explain all the facts recorded.

2) What do you think of the 3 arguments presented by Aspen ?

  Aspen :General Discussion / Re: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation -> « on: April 19, 2019, 04:08:27 AM » ; Reply #61
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=421.msg5449#msg5449
.........
   a/ The photos with the burned jacket are obviously posed with a humoristic intent.  There are so many photos of them laughing and smiling…  If any serious friction arose, I think these educated young people would have the social skills to turn it into something funny and to keep the peace in a situation where they utterly depended on each other.
...........
   b/ Those of you who have done this kind of winter camping would know that you don’t have the energy to pick up fights in such situation.  Most importantly, you are intensely aware at all times that your survival depends on group cooperation and cohesion.  So you let frictions slide.  Nobody would run out of the tent without shoes or gloves and blindly walk for a mile in the cold dark storm because of some bickering.
..........
   c/ Besides all that, they had a common goal: to get their class 3 certification.  That was important to them, and they wouldn’t blow that away with fighting that would put everybody’s life at risk.  If a major disappointment arose for someone during that excursion, they would certainly think it better to deal with their opponent or lost love after the excursion ended.  After all they were in this for only 2 or 3 weeks.  That is not enough time for developing uncontrollably strong hatred against anyone.

3) Within the framework of  my hypothesis N°3, it is possible that the four of the Den decided not to come to the defense of Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonischenko when they were attacked close to the fire and the cedar.