June 04, 2020, 09:17:58 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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11
General Discussion / Re: We may never really know what happened
« Last post by hoosiergose on June 03, 2020, 10:24:49 PM »
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.


It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

@ WAB- Sir- I asked you a very direct simple question- what do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers?
12
General Discussion / Re: We may never really know what happened
« Last post by hoosiergose on June 03, 2020, 10:16:03 PM »
Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.
Sir - your response was a long winded, rambling dissertation-that said nothing-
I merely asked you one direct simple question-
What do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers? You can go back & re-read your response & see the answer I got from you.
A long rambling rant of little value-
My question went totally un-answered
I won’t ask you anymore questions Sir


It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.
13
General Discussion / Re: We may never really know what happened
« Last post by hoosiergose on June 03, 2020, 09:57:10 PM »
@ Sarapuk -I serious doubt it - unless there is a document hidden away by the Soviet Govt that suddenly comes to light - this enigma will probably never be solved. There are well over 70 so called theories and counting. And honestly how can we expect archeology solve this mystery? Hmmmm?
If they do a dig there, what could they really possibly hope to find? What ? A note saying - Help- the mansi got us - Please give me a break Sir. SMH
I enjoy reading the comments on this blog and find some of the comments very amusing  - but I honestly see mostly bizarre & confounding statements & misleading conjecture and very little in the way of a viable plausible solution to what really happened to the Dyatlov Hikers.
14
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?
« Last post by PJ on June 03, 2020, 04:49:34 PM »
Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.



Yes, it is human being and almost for sure it is Tibo. Why?
- The colors of pants / jacket are same as wear Tibo - darker pants and a bit lighter jacket,
- on all of the 4 previous photos is Tibo,
- Tibo doesn't wear skies on the previews photos so probably went out because "call of nature"
- white balance / exposure is exactly the same as the 4 previous photos so must be from same place / same time,
- why is blur? looks like some problem with camera, there are another 4 photos on this camera that are very blur.
15
General Discussion / Re: Can We Accept These Assumptions?
« Last post by PJ on June 03, 2020, 04:26:53 PM »
First, whatever caused them to flee the tent happened suddenly. They had no time to dress properly for the cold. Whatever happened was completely unexpected. They might have seen and heard a missile explode, but had no idea toxic fumes would momentarily fill the tent.
Yes, something that happened suddenly and as well something that last for a while. It must be something that threatened them for a longer time, not just a moment.

Second, it was something they smelled, tasted, heard or felt. It was pitch black, and other than a bright flash of light, they couldn't have seen much. Maybe they felt the ground move beneath them, maybe they smelled toxic fumes, maybe they heard something and thought it was an avalanche, maybe they heard assailants yelling at them to step outside, etc.
Why only smelled, tasted, heard or felt? why not that something that they could see? They could see some constant lights. not just bright flash of light, that scared them.

Third, each one of them believed the danger was real. If some of them felt otherwise, why not remain in the tent (unless mass hysteria happened)?
Agree.

Fourth, each felt they had a better chance to survive by reaching the trees. Whatever the reason, they felt the trees would be safer compared to their exposed and unprotected spot on the slope. Unless, of course, they were ordered or forced to walk to the trees.
Just my thoughts, feel free to add or remove assumptions from this list. Or create your own list.
Yes, the problem was that staying around the tent for long time wasn't safe, make them feel that for some reason it is dangerous. They choose to go down as better option compared to staying for long on an open slope.

The Footprints are intriguing. More intriguing is the lack of Footprints  !  ?  There is no consecutive Footprint Trail from the Tent to the Treeline  !  ?
yes, the footprints are very intriguing. The lack of footprints is not. It is very normal that they disappear in some places, in other place show up as raised footprints and in another as normal. The snow conditions are often very different even within one slope so nothing surprising that the footprints show up like that.
It looks like that they walk calmly but the fact is that they couldn't run or walk fast there. Was dark, fresh and not settled snow, without shoes - you have to walk carefully in conditions like that, otherwise you will fall down with every second step.

The problem with the footprints is that we do not know much about them and if all on the photos are footprints left by Dyatlov Group or by some from the rescue party too.
We only could be sure that the raised footprints was left by Dyatlov Group. As well, on the photos are not only footprints, there are ski prints too so another question is who and when made it.
16
General Discussion / Re: We may never really know what happened
« Last post by sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:52:22 PM »
It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.

Archaeologists are finding things from thousands of years ago.   60 years is nothing in the history of things.  Because of this Forum and the Web Site created by Teddy more and more information slowly but surely comes to light.
17
General Discussion / Re: Zina's Letters
« Last post by sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:46:54 PM »
I think learning more about each hiker individually and how they interacted together, helps us to understand them better as people (they become much more human).  They are not perfect like they are sometimes made out to be; they ARE human.  Maybe,  if we can understand them better, it might be a tiny bit easier to figure out what happened or maybe at least eliminate some scenarios.

You will find nothing that suggests that the Dyatlov Group were in any way responsible for what happened.
18
General Discussion / Re: Why did the Dyatlov group leave their tent?
« Last post by sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:44:19 PM »
Hi Nigel.  It would be nice to find out what kind of plane it could possibly be and check its shape and dimensions with the picture and see if they correspond.  To me, the tail of the plane looks like it is almost as high as the body of the plane is long. loco1

Its not a Plane
19
General Discussion / Re: Tornado???
« Last post by sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:31:24 PM »
There is no guarantee or evidence, that the group would have been aware of the different weather phenomenons or anomalies for that matter. Also, being aware is one thing, experiencing the effect/s in real life situation is another. We tend to easily presume, that the group was ultra-experienced so to say, as if there was nothing they can`t anticipate or could go wrong. Obviously this was not the case.

Well its true they couldnt have expected what they encounted, but they would have had some idea of what the weather could throw at them in that region of Siberia.

To Sarapuk
Being aware of local weather is one thing - but tornados can form & appear quite suddenly- sometimes with very little warning & no time to react- sometimes a mere matter of seconds can mean the difference between life or death. I am very familiar with tornados as I have lived my entire life in tornado alley. They can descend upon you in the blink of an eye. One of the most destructive forces on the planet.
The scenario I suggest is that the hikers heard the approaching tornado (sound of a locomotive) bearing down on them (keep in mind it is dark and they could not see it, only hear it) - they promptly cut open and fled the tent and a few of them who suffered the most serious injuries were possibly hit by flying debris or picked up and slammed into the ground or trees. In their haste and in total darkness they may have inadvertently walked out in front of it or dangerously close.
BTW - a so called Karmin Vortex & a tornado are entirely two different things - two entirely different phenomenon.
A Karmin Vortex does not have the devastating power of a tornado. It can generate an infrasound, but not destroy buildings or uproot trees.

Tornado doesnt explain the sequence of Events though.  Whats the Tornado doing to their Tent = NOTHING. Whats the Tornado doing to them as they walk a mile to the Treeline = NOTHING. Whats the Tornado doing while they climb a Tree and light a fire = Nothing. Whats the Tornado doing while they are at the Ravine = NOTHING.
20
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?
« Last post by sarapuk on June 03, 2020, 02:22:29 PM »


The food for thought offered by Loose}{Cannon   March 16, 2019   Reply #9  and Reply #10

... In other words, there were .... political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities..........

 My mother inlaw is Russian,.....................She told me when times were really tough,........... Her brother lost his right hand for steeling a loaf of bread..... her parents were never seen again.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

...................
Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed.
................................
I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

..................................
prisoners..........................
..................

...................................
 running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. .
....................


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

I do not suspect the prisoners from some distant Gulag camp. The prisoners, who are often called Zeks in international literature, were well guarded continuously night and day.

But after Stalin's death in 1953, first Beria and then Khrushchev ordered mass releases ;
and within a few years the population of the zeks was halved: 2 million zeks became 1 million zeks + 1 million ex-zeks.

The liberated people, often called ex-zeks, were in principle free men, but there were many different administrative statutes.
To put it simply, an ex-zek was almost as free as an ordinary Soviet citizen.

 A certain proportion of these ex-zeks found themselves in unsuitable material and moral conditions.
    • This caused social difficulties in Soviet society between 1953 and 1964.
    • This contributed to the fall of Khrushchev to Brezhnev in 1964.

The attackers, who were ex-zeks, had no material difficulties in catching (joining) the hikers on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl on the evening of 1 February 1959.
 

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The attackers came from the Vizhay region, maybe even simply from settlement 41.

The attackers lived in houses that were comfortable for the time (1959): good food, plenty of firewood, maybe sturdy furniture.

The attackers could have been under house arrest. They had to check in every fortnight, they could only go to certain small towns. But they could work, move around, wander freely in the (big) forest (without going outside certain boundaries).

The attackers knew the route planned for the Dyatloc group because the hikers had (too much) talked about it at Vizhay, at the settlement, at the Rempel forester...

In 1959 there remained in the vicinity of Vizhay a small proportion of ex-zeks or former political prisoners who had many good reasons to hate the Soviet regime and who were ready to continue their patriotic struggle.

It is difficult to know if these were: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians... or from other countries.


One of the goals of the hike was "Conducting conversations and reports among the population."
It became easy (but not without risks) for a certain number (3?, 4?) of ex-zeks to improvise, in a few days, a spectacular action to galvanize opposition to this Stalinist propaganda.

From Vizhay to North-2 the journey is made fatigue-free in a motor vehicle or in a horse-drawn sleigh


cf Atmanaki, Sheet 209 :
In Vizhay arrived around noon, ...and agreed in the car park that a passing car we will take us to the village of IInd North, the easiest starting point to go on the route.

From North-2 to the tent, the trace left by the 9 hikers is clearly visible and easy to follow, in less than one day, (except maybe the last mile on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl).


Here is the photographic proof of the existence of pursuers that many investigators want to ignore !

Everything indicates that it is a human being who was only visible for a very short time and then disappeared immediately.



The attackers, who had no guns and no daggers, with difficulty succeeded in defeating the hikers, after 9 hours of fighting in the snow and at night.

This is why I will henceforth send my argumentation in the Topic: "Altercation on the pass" ( and not on Murdered).


You use up a lot of space to SPECULATE WILDLY.  You provide no EVIDENCE to back up your ASSERTIONS.
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