Full of overloaded bladders at autopsy

[eurocentric]

Normal adult bladder volume ranges between 300-600mls. Some medical sources suggest up to 500mls.

4 hikers were found dead in a watercourse, and two of those were found to have 600mls (Semyon) and 700mls (Alexander) at autopsy. Nearest the ravine was Igor, who was fit-to-burst with a litre.

It's perfectly possible that Lyuda's bladder may also have been full, but the pathologist omitted to record hers at autopsy, and Tibo's was the only one found to be empty, likely the result of his serious head injury rendering him so deeply unconscious that he lost control of his bodily functions and urinated on the floor of the ravine, but for all we know he too may originally have had a full bladder.

Of the remaining 4 hikers all were within normal ranges, although Yuri K was on the high side at 500mls, and it may be that Rustem urinated after collapse, his right arm outstretched untypical of a conscious man dying solely of hypothermia where he'd tend to adopt a semi-fetal position to reduce his bodyprint offered up to the cold, and this may have helped generate an ice pad underneath him.

It seems strange that up to half of the hikers had full or overloaded bladders other than the logic that they drank copiously from the ravine, and I wonder how this autopsy observation fits in with theories about wolverines, tree collapse, KGB or other third party attack.

[ilahiyol]

This shows that the deaths did not happen in a short time.... In other words, they could not find time to pee for a long time after drinking water... This proves that they left the tent, walked into the forest and spent some time there. But why didn't they pee in the forest? Maybe they were under the influence. Maybe they didn't dare to leave the group. So they were under a lot of pressure. Otherwise, peeing is easy, especially for men. The fact that they didn't do this shows that they are not comfortable and do not dare to leave the group....Or they have lost the feeling of peeing in the cold. However, the bladder can fill up after death. It's possible too...

[Missi]

I'm pretty sure to have read, a full bladder is not strange to cases of death by hypothermia. I just can't find where I read this.

[Teddy]

I'm pretty sure to have read, a full bladder is not strange to cases of death by hypothermia. I just can't find where I read this.

I discussed the problem with M.D. Vasil Nikolchev, Head of the Forensic Department in Kyustendil, Bulgaria.  He made the autopsy of the woman who was killed by a tree that fell on top of her tent on 7/7/2020.

Woman (29) dead, boyfriend walked away with a minor injury and a fright

Dr. Nikolchev agreed that the common perception is for light colored blood to be found in frozen corpses, but the blood can be dark, too. And the blood clots may dissolve during thawing. Then he handed me the following scientific paper and said "We all (the MD) keep looking for answers in books till the last day of our practice."
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Hypothermia.pdf
On p. 10 it says how many autopsies are taken in consideration - 3265. Many parameters are taken into account - age, gender, life style, health, latitude, climate, alcohol, genetics, I can even remember all you are welcome to leaf through t, sorry that it is in Bulgarian but I am sure you can find a way to translate it if it comes to that. On page 28 there is a table that shows what are the % for bright/scarlet blood - 49%. Right in the middle.

I asked Dr. Nikolchev for his opinion on refreezing the bodies: All kinds of things can happen when a body is thawed - change of color, rapid decomposition and all kinds of fluids can start coming out. He wasn't sure about defecation. Dr. Nikolchev said that in his 29 year practice he had only seen hanged people soil themselves, but not all of them do it. Common knowledge is that people dying from hypothermia have more urine in their bladder. They just do not urinate. There is no explanation about that, they just don't. But it is not a rule. The MD was kind of upset because he saw that I am expecting more certainty in his answers. He said that every illness, every condition, everything concerning the body can develop atypically. The coroner merely records an observation. Certain things are more of a symptom for further exploration e.g. discoloration means poisoning - make a test for certain poison.

Foam coming from the mouth and nose can happen when the heart stops, too. It is not indicative of a certain cause of death.

[GlennM]

This is why it is referred to as the medical arts. Those who use them practice at it. They are practitioners. Those who come for it must be patient. They are patients. Until the advent of antibiotics, doctors had very,very few means of curing anything. Surgery could be used to cut out the offending problem.In other words, although patterns do emerge, uncertainty abounds.

Teddy reminds us that her interview with the forensic pathologist demonstrates that our logical arguements may be valid, but in fact may not be true. There are two logical types of reasoning They are induction and deduction. Inductive logic states, " if I've have seen one, I've have seen them all". Example. This swan is white. They all must be white. Deductive logic states, " they all have been a certain way, so will the next."Example,  Every swan, I've seen was white. The next one will also be white".

All of us in the forum are searching for a pattern to defend our point of view. Why? The record of the findings of the DPI are not totally inductively, nor deductively consistent. What we need is the Rosetta stone here. That will be written or found on the mountain.

[Ziljoe]

This is why it is referred to as the medical arts. Those who use them practice at it. They are practitioners. Those who come for it must be patient. They are patients. Until the advent of antibiotics, doctors had very,very few means of curing anything. Surgery could be used to cut out the offending problem.In other words, although patterns do emerge, uncertainty abounds.

Teddy reminds us that her interview with the forensic pathologist demonstrates that our logical arguements may be valid, but in fact may not be true. There are two logical types of reasoning They are induction and deduction. Inductive logic states, " if I've have seen one, I've have seen them all". Example. This swan is white. They all must be white. Deductive logic states, " they all have been a certain way, so will the next."Example,  Every swan, I've seen was white. The next one will also be white".

All of us in the forum are searching for a pattern to defend our point of view. Why? The record of the findings of the DPI are not totally inductively, nor deductively consistent. What we need is the Rosetta stone here. That will be written or found on the mountain.

Did you have an encyclopedia for breakfast?

[eurocentric]

Stress cystitis can cause urine retention during hypothermia, but equally cold diuresis makes people urinate more in cold weather. And to have all this fluid rapidly collect, the hikers said to have died within 6 hours of their last meal, you'd need to have consumed it.