The clothes

[amashilu]

In May 2021, MDGross began a new thread called "Nurse Solter and the Clothes," which got some good responses, but which I continue to think needs more exploration. Here is what he wrote:

I'm a bit confused (what's new about that) about the subject of the hikers' clothes. Teddy, you can probably shed some light on this. In a 2008 interview, Nurse Solter states that when the first six bodies were brought to the morgue, she and the surgeon, Dr. Prudkov, were the only ones present. She says in the interview that she removed their clothes and washed the bodies. The corpses were then dressed in new clothes and placed in coffins. Solter then believes the coffins were flown to Sverdlovsk for burial. But if a restaging occurred, which is plausible, then the bodies needed to be redressed in their original clothes. My question is, how did the restagers know which clothes went with which bodies? Solter and perhaps Prudkov were the only ones who knew how the bodies were first dressed. And I don't believe they were involved in the redressing. This is important because if Yudin was shown photos of the hikers when they were found by the search team, he would know if the clothes were all wrong. So a degree of accuracy was needed. But the restagers hadn't seen the bodies in their original clothes. What shirt goes with who? What sweater, etc.? If Yudin believed the clothing was just as it should be, then perhaps the restaging never happened. I'm probably exaggerating the importance of the clothes. But it does seem important to me.


If I remember right, some of the hikers were found wearing cut-up pieces of others' clothing. (Luda was wearing one sleeve or a leg of someone else's pants, I think). Since no knives were found in the neighborhood, I've always wondered how did they cut these pieces of clothes?

As others have noted, Nurse Solter may have forgotten some things and been confused about others, but she firmly and repeatedly stated over the years that the bodies were brought to her, they were thawed, then she undressed them, washed them, clothes were bought for them, and they were dressed, laid into caskets and taken away. I believe that at that time, the identity of the bodies was unknown. They were just hikers who unfortunately froze to death. The bodies were taken somewhere to wait for someone to report them missing, so identity could be established.

So is it possible that Nurse Solter cut their clothes off? Then later, after their identities came to light, someone panicked; they were re-dressed in the cut-up clothes and put back on the mountain. This would also explain why so many hikers' pants were unbuttoned. I don't think anyone could walk, ski, dig a den, or do anything else with their pants unbuttoned. If they were hastily re-dressed, this could be an explanation.

[GlennM]

So, frozen or not the corpses were undressed. Why? So a forensic exam ( read autopsy) could be performed. Seems to me there is a bigger problem here than dissected clothing with putting them out in the woods again.

[anna_pycckux]

This is a very serious topic, but it is a side topic.: what happened to the bodies from the moment of death to the first discoveries?
According to my version:
1. The dead lay bloody in the snow for several days, where they were stripped and killed. The authorities of the department were waiting for further orders. (The 21st Congress of the CPSU was held in Moscow on February 5, 1959, and the congress was attended by the entire leadership of Sverdlovsk).
2. After February 5, the bodies were buried in Ivdellag, in a pit.
3. After relatives began to panic and threaten that they would attract the world community to search for tourists (starting from February 15-17) – the corpses were dug up, washed of dirt and blood (Salter's words: they were very dirty) and again laid out on the slope half-naked. It was an imitation of an order: to undress tourists so that they would freeze. Things and even money were scattered near the cedar as proof of the strangers' innocence.

The military liquidators, under the leadership of the authorities from Sverdlovsk and Ivdel, imitated the picture of an accident on the slope. The most severely injured were dumped into a stream so that their bodies would not be discovered for a long time and had time to decompose beyond recognition.
I make a terrible assumption that consultants from the UPI worked with the liquidators, those who knew Dyatlov's group well. He knew how and what they could presumably be wearing and who was who.

[amashilu]

So, frozen or not the corpses were undressed. Why? So a forensic exam ( read autopsy) could be performed. Seems to me there is a bigger problem here than dissected clothing with putting them out in the woods again.

Yes, of course there is a "bigger problem" as you say, but this particular thread is focusing on the detail: how did the clothes get cut and unbuttoned?

If the hikers themselves cut the clothes, what tool did they use?

If Nurse Solter did it, how did the cut clothes and the bodies without their pants buttoned end up back on the mountain? Theories that involve staging the scene, such as the tree theory, or Anna's liquidation theory, or several others, are the only ones that would fit.

[GlennM]

Hi thanks for the comment. For me, it is a matter of giving credence to an entire campaign of assasination with  literal and figurative coverup, or a single Finnish knife lost in the snow by numb hands. The latter makes more sense to me than the former.

[amashilu]

I think that sometimes apparently minor details (such as who cut the clothes?) can be very important.

[MDGross]

Wow, it's hard to believe that nearly three years have passed since I made that post. I'm older, but none the wiser. Under the theory that I've come to believe in (at least for now!), the KGB wanted to make it look like the hikers struggled to the end to stay alive. So the KGB built a fire, constructed a snow den and had the very bright idea of cutting and changing clothing on some of the bodies. All of it done to make the scene look more realistic when found at last by a search party. 

Thanks amashilu for digging up one of my old posts. I almost sound halfway intelligent!!!

[amashilu]

Wow, it's hard to believe that nearly three years have passed since I made that post. I'm older, but none the wiser. Under the theory that I've come to believe in (at least for now!), the KGB wanted to make it look like the hikers struggled to the end to stay alive. So the KGB built a fire, constructed a snow den and had the very bright idea of cutting and changing clothing on some of the bodies. All of it done to make the scene look more realistic when found at last by a search party. 

Thanks amashilu for digging up one of my old posts. I almost sound halfway intelligent!!!

It was and still is a very important question. I am glad you introduced it. It really does look like someone re-dressed the hikers in a strange, haphazard way.

[Ziljoe]

It does seem slightly odd but lends itself to paradoxical undressing. I doubt stagers would put them in clothes in such a peculiar way. The trousers could have been ripped sliding down the tree trunk and Rustem was found with a pen knife in his pocket.

If there was changing of clothes at the ceder/ ravine there is the possibility that their hands were numb so buttons will become difficult to close . Also, some of the initial searcher's / Investigators on discovery of the bodies may have checked pockets etc. Especially the first 5 bodies as there was no direct suspicion of foul play. To look through pockets for paper or identification and perhaps written clues would be good reason.

Obviously we only have one hiker with cut clothes that look like they might be removed prior to autopsy. ?

[WinterLeia]

If there had been more care taken to preserve the scene, then the absence of the knife would be of great significance. Unfortunately, due to a variety of factors; from the fact that it started off as a rescue operation and not a criminal investigation, to just general chaos in the first few days of the search, to a host of other reasons; we know that isn’t the case because there were several items that went missing and several searchers said that people were just taking things from the area without telling anyone. And that has to be taken into account, which downgrades the significance of the absence of the knife to interesting, but not impossible.

Regarding the clothes themselves, it was obvious that the hikers were also using them to lay on the floor of the den, presumably I guess because them sitting on the bare icy ground would have defeated the whole point of the den. But Luda in particular was extremely underdressed, and after she was injured, keeping her warm would have been extremely important. So cutting up the clothes, so they had enough for the den, but were able to wrap Luda in something could have been a desperate attempt on the part of Kolevatov or someone else to keep the ones who were still alive…alive.

[GlennM]

Imagine a situation where a member of the hiking party died from the cold. It would not be easy to remove clothing from the corpse owing to the resistance of the body, frozen fabric and decorum. We may consider that when the death happened, the living didn't immediately pounce on the corpse to denude it. We know that cutting tools were brought down from the tent. Perhaps a missing Flemish knife will be discovered in a future exploration. For me, the inconsistency is entirely due to the recall of Nurse Solter and her husband.

As we explore this thread, it is a relief that what discoverers found was not like the Donner Party.

[Ziljoe]

The den flooring doesn't seem the best choice for insulation but it's what was found, it should have been fir branches, unless that's what they were trying to retrieve from the ceder .

There are a lot of details that link activity by the hikers at the ravine and overlap with the clothes and some attempt at survival. We have a fire, burnt clothes and some burns on the hikers. I can't work out the reason for putting some cut or ripped clothing down on the den branches in the way they are presented in the photo.

Making a shelter in the ravine area makes sense, even if it's just to cut into a snow bank as opposed to a snow cave/hole. Climbing the ceder makes a bit of sense to get dry ceder wood , to at least start a fire and then maybe use the wood on the ground.

The burnt jumper that's on Lyudmila Dubinina is confusing, why is it there and when was it put on, or cut off someone else's body. If we look at her clothing and the rest of the hikers, I don't think stagers would redress them in uneven socks etc and wrap burnt jumpers around legs.




The details of the clothing do not make sense for outsiders or staging but it's difficult to put a step by step process to the chronological order to events at the ceder and ravine even in a survival situation.

Some how , clothes of the ravine 4 got burnt , this means that there was interaction at the fire and the ravine. Its something I can't work out no matter how hard I try. If Igor went to regain the tent , why did he not take more socks from the others and a hat for that matter?

It baffles me , a lot, I can't make an argument for outsiders letting them wear some clothes and not others , I can't understand what stagers were trying to stage by putting the tent up on the slope. If they were trying to stage an avalanche, why not scatter the tent belongings down the slope ?. Why not make it look more like a avalanche or a tornado or that matter. Stagers could have saved a lot of time and effort by just leaving everything strewn across the slope .

I would guess some of the unbuttoned clothes were done by the hikers themselves and then the first searcher's , they just never got rebuttoned. By process of elimination, the clothes were cut and ripped by the hikers, it looks like a few of them had put mostly their feet and legs next to a fire at some point.

[GlennM]

As grist to the mill, according to legend, the corpses were re-dressed at the morgue and delivered back to the slope for discovery. The clothes on the deceased were all identified as belonging to members of the group. It would be a dim witted conspirator who would do such a poor job of re-dressing the victims in some sort of half baked ruse. Too, according to legend, they were given new clothes. That is in itself quite a trick, given the circumstances and locality.

Frostbite, paradoxical undressing, mental confusion and a missing Flemish knife explain more that a convoluted, poorly executed cover up.

[amashilu]

I did read (but forget where) that when the bodies were first brought to the morgue, nobody knew who they were. They were just poor hikers who froze. They were undressed and washed by Nurse Solter, then re-dressed in new clothes, put into coffins, and taken away to be stored somewhere until such time as, hopefully, someone comes forward to ask about their hiking relative who had been gone too long. Then the identification process would have a place to start.

The question in this scenario is, was this a "normal procedure" for what to do when some unidentified frozen hikers were found and brought to the morgue?

[GlennM]

Anout the new clothes...there must be receipts somewhere.

[WinterLeia]

Nurse Solter also said that one of the girls had partly burned hair as well as burned clothes. She must have been talking about Luda. But unless she’s right about the fireball theory, which is what her explanation was, it’s kind of hard to explain.
I guess maybe she got too close to the fire, trying to keep warm. It just still seems bizarrely excessive to me.

[amashilu]

Maybe we can ask, "What would a morgue in a hiking area of the Urals in 1959 do when unidentified frozen bodies are brought in?"

I haven't a clue myself.

[Ziljoe]

Maybe we can ask, "What would a morgue in a hiking area of the Urals in 1959 do when unidentified frozen bodies are brought in?"

I haven't a clue myself.

I think that may be part of the problem. Forgetting KGB involment for a second. Russia or the Soviet Union was huge at the time , land mass,that includes domestic deaths from hypothermia.

To give context from Wikipedia

Between 1995 and 2004 in the United States, an average of 1560 cold-related emergency department visits occurred per year and in the years 1999 to 2004, an average of 647 people died per year due to hypothermia.[28][77] Of deaths reported between 1999 and 2002 in the US, 49% of those affected were 65 years or older and two-thirds were male.[32] Most deaths were not work related (63%) and 23% of affected people were at home.[32] Hypothermia was most common during the autumn and winter months of October through March.[32] In the United Kingdom, an estimated 300 deaths per year are due to hypothermia, whereas the annual incidence of hypothermia-related deaths in Canada is 8000.

People that do autopsy try to establish cause of death by looking at the body. They are not specialist at anything other than potential cause of death, they are not the court or the police.

I'm sure there were many frozen bodies taken in , the USA, Canada and today's Russia have such cases to this day. Even the UK has death by hypothermia which I wouldn't class in the same cold temperature. But it happens.

Whatever we might think or want to believe, the environment/ climate is the potential biggest , consistent killer of humans . Ie the cold.

[Partorg]

When it comes to the memories of people who are around 80 years of age, you need to understand that many of these “memories” are actually so-called. pseudoreminiscences - a consequence of a state of paramnesia, which is believed to be caused by atherosclerosis, which is almost inevitable at this age. I mean, memories of events from one period can overlap with memories of events of another, and not even personally experienced, but heard, seen on the screen, or read.
Pelageya Salter most likely took part in preparing the bodies for burial after conducting a forensic medical examination and before sending them to Sverdlovsk. That's all. Everything else is nothing more than memory games of elderly person.

[amashilu]

Pelageya Salter most likely took part in preparing the bodies for burial after conducting a forensic medical examination and before sending them to Sverdlovsk. That's all. Everything else is nothing more than memory games of elderly person.

But I think that's all she ever claimed, right? She took care of the bodies, washed them, put on clean clothes, and sent them on their way.

[WinterLeia]

Pelageya Salter most likely took part in preparing the bodies for burial after conducting a forensic medical examination and before sending them to Sverdlovsk. That's all. Everything else is nothing more than memory games of elderly person.

But I think that's all she ever claimed, right? She took care of the bodies, washed them, put on clean clothes, and sent them on their way.

I think with the staging theory, though, what’s being said is that after she did all that, and then somebody realized they made a big mistake, had to put the dirty and ripped clothing back on the bodies, presumably just the way they were found, and take them back out to the pass. At least that’s how I understood it. And while, yes, I can maybe see them developing photographs from the cameras and making a good guess of what clothes belongs to which person, trying to imagine them wrapping Luda in burned clothing that doesn’t even seem to belong to her or putting mismatched socks on some corpses seems a bit more than just odd.

[GlennM]

Have you ever taken a frozen chicken, thawed it and decided to re freeze it? No? Why not? Have you ever thawed out a frozen chicken, cut it up and then decided to freeze it? No, why not? I believe that those brought to the morgue were brought only once. They were attended to, described in great detail and flown home. It would be a professional faux pas of the greatest degree to miss the tissue changes in a twice frozen corpse.

[Partorg]

But I think that's all she ever claimed, right?

IMHO, the only thing that is true in her stories is that she actually washed and dressed the bodies. And that they were really very dirty. Everything else: “11 corpses”, “singed hair on a girl”, etc. this is nothing more than pseudo-reminiscence.

[WinterLeia]

But I think that's all she ever claimed, right?

IMHO, the only thing that is true in her stories is that she actually washed and dressed the bodies. And that they were really very dirty. Everything else: “11 corpses”, “singed hair on a girl”, etc. this is nothing more than pseudo-reminiscence.

Yeah, I wasn’t suggesting that Luda really had burned hair, even though, admittedly, the way I phrased it sounds like that. I don’t believe that the scene was staged. So I don’t how anyone could tell that, considering Luda’s amount of decomposition when they found her remains. But I do know that in the official investigation, some of the clothes had burn marks on them. It sounds somewhat unusual to me. But considering that someone’s jacket (can’t remember off-hand which hiker’s it was) got burned on accident before the tragedy, coupled with the hikers being severely underdressed, I’m more than happy to accept that they may have done it themselves by getting too close to the fire. In lieu of any other evidence to explain it, it’s the only explanation I can reasonably come to.

Although, it just occurred to me that Nurse Souter may have never seen the bodies in the ravine, as it seems that she didn’t witness that kind of decomposition on the corpses she handled, and she stated that she never had anymore to do with the remains after she dressed them and sent them on their way. Yet, the autopsies of the hikers were not done at the same time, as the ones in the den were not found until a few months after the other ones. If so, then her count is way off, as there would have only been six bodies, not nine or eleven.

[Partorg]

But I do know that in the official investigation, some of the clothes had burn marks on them. It sounds somewhat unusual to me.

In the Forensic Medical Examination Report, burnt hair was noted on Doroshenko’s head. Nurse Salter probably already heard on TV in our time that one of the Dyatlovites had their hair burned. This mixed up in her memory with her own memories, and at the time of the interview it seemed to her that she saw this burnt hair on one of the girls...
This is how paramnesia works. Something similar happened with her memory of the number of corpses (in principle, she could participate in the processing of both the first 5 and the last 4) This is why the testimony of people aged 80+ should be taken critically.


Naturally, the Dyatlovites had burns. They couldn't help but be. Without protection from the wind, a fire is almost useless, so those who were freezing climbing into the fire without worrying too much about burns.

[GlennM]

Voices of reason!