A Thought About the Bruised Knuckles

[MDGross]

The autopsy reports on Dyatlov and Slobodin state that their bruised knuckles were most likely caused by a fist fight. I'm sure others have made a similar suggestion, but here goes: In the daylight hours of Jan. 31 or Feb. 1, the Dyatlov group encountered a small Mansi hunting party. A few Mansi hunters made unseemly advances toward the two women. Dyatlov and Slobodin took exception and blows were exchanged. On the night of Feb. 1, the hunters returned with several friends. All of them were armed with rifles. The hunters forced the group out of the tent at gunpoint. Most of the hikers were poorly dressed for the freezing weather, without shoes, coats, hoods or gloves. They were marched into the woods and allowed to make a fire because the Mansi knew it would be more or less futile. At some point, the Ravine 4 snuck (or sneaked) away. The Mansi found them and beat them with the wooden end of their rifles. The bodies were thrown into the ravine. Nothing was removed from the tent because stealing from the group was not the Mansi's motive.

Early on, after the first bodies were found, the Mansi were under suspicion. But that investigation was quickly dropped. Perhaps the Communist Party leaders in Moscow feared that if the Mansi were implicated, vigilantes from Ivdel and elsewhere would kill Mansi who had nothing to do with the crime. Once the story got out from beyond the Soviet Union, the embarrassment would have been tremendous. Most certainly it would not be the image of hard-working and happy citizens that the leadership wanted to project to the world.

As a rule, the Mansi were then and now peaceful and friendly people who would harm no one. But, there are the exceptions to every rule. 

[Axelrod]

Autopsies doesn't state any fight
Sheet 102:
====
Телесные повреждения, обнаруженные на теле гражданина СЛОБОДИНА, в виде ссадин, царапин, осаднения ---- причинены тупым орудием в результате падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее.

Повреждения были причинены как при жизни, а также в агональном состоянии и посмертно
====
The injuries found on Slobodin’s body in the form of abrasions, scrapes and graze wounds were caused by a blunt object as the result of a fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc.

The damage was caused during life, as well as in the agonal state and post mortem

[Osi]

Even if there are signs of a fight, we cannot determine whether third parties were involved in the fight. Likely;  We can assume that after landing in the forest, they may have fought with each other as a result of disagreements about work and planning. It's a cliché that many adventures that begin with deep friendships, especially in multi-member groups, end in infighting, recriminations, and fights when things go wrong. Based on the Urals Mansi settlement; I can't imagine more than 4 or 5 mansi men together, even if they were organizing a hunting party. Also, there are 9 healthy athletes in front of you and you are not sure whether they are carrying firearms. How will you find the courage to overcome it?

[Axelrod]

I have some thoughts about a conflict:

Next, Petr [SEMILETOV] discusses the photo from January 30 Dyatlov Pass: Truth and Lies, Part 11: Who Gets the Sugar? (December 1, 2017):


   
[–] This photo seems very important and very strange to me. Zina approached on skis, threw something (possibly a mitten) onto her ski. Zina cannot go any further because a person sitting with his back to us is blocking her path… And since Zina cannot move forward any further, she bends down and hands someone 4-5 pieces of refined sugar.

At the same time, two ski poles are stuck in the snow in front of the figure sitting with his back to us. Please note that these ski poles are narrower and shorter than regular ski poles. An adult cannot walk with such poles, they would have to walk bent over. This pole is for a child. At the same time, in other photos, ski poles with such black wrapping on the handle are not visible anywhere. These are 2 miniature poles stuck in the snow.

In the comments, they wrote to me that this could be a Mansi dwarf who came on skis. But I already said that the Mansi do not use ski poles. The question is, who came to their camp with such small ski poles?

Let's also consider the composition, it is strange. The photographer deliberately turned the camera on its side to give the photo a vertical orientation. He takes a photo of Zina, who is handing over sugar, and avoids taking a photo of the person to whom Zina is handing over sugar. On other trips, they happily photographed Mansi or deer, but here the camera is aimed strictly at Zina. There is some intention on the part of the photographer here to avoid getting into the frame the person to whom Zina is handing over sugar. The question is – to whom?

[Osi]

Comparing the model's knee height with Zina's knee height, I see a high probability that one of the two knees at almost the same distance from the lens is Tibo, who is thinner than Zina, or Rüstem, who prefers light-colored socks. I may be wrong about the names, but it doesn't look like a limb belonging to a dwarf native.
Today's mop handles can be shortened and adjusted to the desired length by squeezing inwards, but I do not know if a shortening handle was invented in those days. A stick as a personal item belonging to one of the members; It may have a different design than traditional sticks and be made from a much more special material.

[SURI]

The ski poles are normal size. They are neither short nor narrow. They are just tilted back and resting on the tourists' belongings.

[amashilu]

The autopsy reports on Dyatlov and Slobodin state that their bruised knuckles were most likely caused by a fist fight. I'm sure others have made a similar suggestion, but here goes: In the daylight hours of Jan. 31 or Feb. 1, the Dyatlov group encountered a small Mansi hunting party. A few Mansi hunters made unseemly advances toward the two women. Dyatlov and Slobodin took exception and blows were exchanged. On the night of Feb. 1, the hunters returned with several friends. All of them were armed with rifles. The hunters forced the group out of the tent at gunpoint. Most of the hikers were poorly dressed for the freezing weather, without shoes, coats, hoods or gloves. They were marched into the woods and allowed to make a fire because the Mansi knew it would be more or less futile. At some point, the Ravine 4 snuck (or sneaked) away. The Mansi found them and beat them with the wooden end of their rifles. The bodies were thrown into the ravine. Nothing was removed from the tent because stealing from the group was not the Mansi's motive.

I often have wondered about the injuries that were recorded as being crusted over and in a state of healing, indicating they were inflicted some time before death actually occurred. Your theory accounts for this, as there was a fight and then several hours later, a showdown.

[Axelrod]

I am aware of these TV shows with Dr. Tumanov.
But it seems to me that such topics are specially made for TV and youtube viewers. As soon as a crime story about the Dyatlov group appears on YouTube, especially with the word "killer", this video immediately gets a lot of views.

The assumption about the killers guarantees a huge amount of views, but does not guarantee that all this actually happened.

[Arjan]

From my memory.

Some five years ago, I have read the way several victims of hypothermia have been found in Sweden or Norway.

These victims had blood on the nuckles of their hands and they had caused blood on the walls of the den that they had made in order to protect themselves from the wind and partly the cold.

If I remember well, the cause of blood on their nuckles and on the snow was explained by:
- snow can be very abbressive
- making a den by compressing snow - without tools - by hands can cause wounds to the hands.

Maybe several of the bruised knuckles of group members can be explained by making a den.

As well, it may be useful to see which group members had bruised knuckles and who had not.

[SURI]

Pictures will tell more.

Dyatlov had his hands in the same position as shown in the first picture.

Slobodin's position looked similar to the second picture.

And if you push his head to the ground, it will cause abrasions, bruises, and maybe even cracks as he fights back. The second picture illustrates this well.

[SURI]

And here we have another picture, which already concerns the Dyatlov group. The picture shows tourists. And we have 5 pairs of skis there, which also represent something. If we look at the entire picture more closely, the red-marked spot (right) in the first image is very similar to the second photo with Kolmogorova.  So what the skis represent is clear even from the first crossed skis. And then we see a group standing between those skis..

[Ziljoe]

And here we have another picture, which already concerns the Dyatlov group. The picture shows tourists. And we have 5 pairs of skis there, which also represent something. If we look at the entire picture more closely, the red-marked spot (right) in the first image is very similar to the second photo with Kolmogorova.  So what the skis represent is clear even from the first crossed skis. And then we see a group standing between those skis..

It is just an artist's impression flipped from this picture in the search photos.



image hosting site

The wrestling photos are bodies in motion. An assassin would have to also lie in the same position until Dyatlov froze . I think this is highly unlikely. There are many examples of frozen bodies in the positions of the hikers on the internet. Even Zinas hand with the thumb between the fingers.

[SURI]

It is not true that an assassin would have to be in the same position for a long time. When competing in sports, you must follow certain rules. Without rules, you can immobilize another person in a few minutes by kneeling on them and burying their head in the ground. There may also be more of you. Dyatlov had ice on his face and under his chin. Before he died, he breathed into the snow for a long time, melting it with his breath. Many also had visible nose injuries.

[SURI]

Why do the Police also use this method, even if with certain rules? Because it is effective.

[Arjan]

It is quite possible that the bruised knuckels had been caused by:
- hitting snow or icy surface and/or
- compacting snow.

The question is: 'During what kind of activity'.

Wrestling and fighting are suggested already.
I don't investigate internal or external human violence in this cause, because in my view:
- these kind of crimes have 'expired for prosecution' and certainly for 'laymens' prosecution' and/or
- I wish to let the deceased rest in peace.
So no contributions from my side on these options.

By the way, the posture of Igor may well have been caused by carrying his unconscious body - still luky warm - but while rigor mortis has already started in the joints of his limbs.
Remark: there is a common wisdom in hypothermia stating: 'One has died when one has been rewarmed and dead'. Recovery is possible in specialised hospitals when the core temperature of adults has already dropped to 25 degrees Celsius. Small children have recovered when their core temperature had already dropped to a little below 20 degrees Celsius.   

Other kind of activities that may have caused abbressed, bruised knuckels, may be:
- hitting the snow - in a boxing style - with bare knuckels to compact the snow for the wall of a den
- hitting the snow - or icy surface - during a fall/slide
- hitting snow or objects in agony during the middle process of hypothermia.

I may well have missed a few options for bruised knuckles.

 

[Ziljoe]

It is not true that an assassin would have to be in the same position for a long time. When competing in sports, you must follow certain rules. Without rules, you can immobilize another person in a few minutes by kneeling on them and burying their head in the ground. There may also be more of you. Dyatlov had ice on his face and under his chin. Before he died, he breathed into the snow for a long time, melting it with his breath. Many also had visible nose injuries.

Of course , humans, assassin's or whatever you want could attack the hikers . But there is little to show for it apart from our lack of knowledge as to what happens to humans in the conditions they were found.

We must rule out nature first . As has been said time and time again, there was hard ice on the slope under the soft snow, several searchers injured themselves on the slope and one had to be taken away to the hospital.

Bruised knuckles and damage to parts of the hands are part of process of survival and a cold environment. It's the same with the faces, the nose is the extremity, as are the cheeks of the face . Hand control would go and if walking/crawling on all fours , I suspect the hand would become used in fist form rather than palm .

It is the opposite that is true , if there were no marks and signs of frostbite , no red noses or abrasions, no fire , no burnt hands or legs next to a fire etc, it would be then we could rule in outsider's.

We would expect to see mild trauma on the unprotected skin surface for those exposed to the weather conditions. I don't think there would be a fist brawl on a mountain slope , if there was , it would most likely be between two hikers and not outsiders.

When you are fighting for your life , you don't follow the rules of a punch to the nose and chuck one back  , I would expect to see nails ripped off, broken fingers and possibly arms. I would expect to see ripped clothing and blood .

Please Google frozen bodies, look for evidence based practice research papers and autopsy findings .

Unless the whole Dyatlov case is a hoax everything fits , contradictions as well.

1)The UPi just thought the hikers were late , they were neglectful.

2)The Kremlin got involved because family members were requesting help because the UPi were being slow. ( Every country does this for loved ones)

3)The search was done in a correct fashion to find them as soon as possible.

4) the tent was found on the route ,

5)footprints of 8-9 were found going away from the tent down to the treeline .

6) a fire was made and branches from that ceder tree were also used as insulation from the snow .

7) clothes were cut and repurposed for survival.( This does not imply outsiders ) 

8) there were attempts at making flooring in a ravine , these are the broken firs and ( I think) one birch tree at the den.

9) in recent reports and one at the time , it is said that these small trees are easy to snap with the hand .( The ones used for flooring at the den).

Bruised knuckles would probably occur during the above.

[SURI]

It is quite possible that the bruised knuckels had been caused by:
- hitting snow or icy surface and/or
- compacting snow.

The question is: 'During what kind of activity'.

Wrestling and fighting are suggested already.
I don't investigate internal or external human violence in this cause, because in my view:
- these kind of crimes have 'expired for prosecution' and certainly for 'laymens' prosecution' and/or
- I wish to let the deceased rest in peace.
So no contributions from my side on these options.

By the way, the posture of Igor may well have been caused by carrying his unconscious body - still luky warm - but while rigor mortis has already started in the joints of his limbs.
Remark: there is a common wisdom in hypothermia stating: 'One has died when one has been rewarmed and dead'. Recovery is possible in specialised hospitals when the core temperature of adults has already dropped to 25 degrees Celsius. Small children have recovered when their core temperature had already dropped to a little below 20 degrees Celsius.   

Other kind of activities that may have caused abbressed, bruised knuckels, may be:
- hitting the snow - in a boxing style - with bare knuckels to compact the snow for the wall of a den
- hitting the snow - or icy surface - during a fall/slide
- hitting snow or objects in agony during the middle process of hypothermia.

I may well have missed a few options for bruised knuckles.

Here we can agree that Igor was brought to the place from a place where he had previously been lying for some time and breathed into the snow. His position does not indicate active movement.

The hand injuries may have been caused by repeatedly bouncing the hands off the snow while trying to free themselves from the grip.

So injuries can look natural, but caused under duress.

[SURI]

It is not true that an assassin would have to be in the same position for a long time. When competing in sports, you must follow certain rules. Without rules, you can immobilize another person in a few minutes by kneeling on them and burying their head in the ground. There may also be more of you. Dyatlov had ice on his face and under his chin. Before he died, he breathed into the snow for a long time, melting it with his breath. Many also had visible nose injuries.

Of course , humans, assassin's or whatever you want could attack the hikers . But there is little to show for it apart from our lack of knowledge as to what happens to humans in the conditions they were found.

We must rule out nature first . As has been said time and time again, there was hard ice on the slope under the soft snow, several searchers injured themselves on the slope and one had to be taken away to the hospital.

Bruised knuckles and damage to parts of the hands are part of process of survival and a cold environment. It's the same with the faces, the nose is the extremity, as are the cheeks of the face . Hand control would go and if walking/crawling on all fours , I suspect the hand would become used in fist form rather than palm .

It is the opposite that is true , if there were no marks and signs of frostbite , no red noses or abrasions, no fire , no burnt hands or legs next to a fire etc, it would be then we could rule in outsider's.

We would expect to see mild trauma on the unprotected skin surface for those exposed to the weather conditions. I don't think there would be a fist brawl on a mountain slope , if there was , it would most likely be between two hikers and not outsiders.

When you are fighting for your life , you don't follow the rules of a punch to the nose and chuck one back  , I would expect to see nails ripped off, broken fingers and possibly arms. I would expect to see ripped clothing and blood .

Please Google frozen bodies, look for evidence based practice research papers and autopsy findings .

Unless the whole Dyatlov case is a hoax everything fits , contradictions as well.

1)The UPi just thought the hikers were late , they were neglectful.

2)The Kremlin got involved because family members were requesting help because the UPi were being slow. ( Every country does this for loved ones)

3)The search was done in a correct fashion to find them as soon as possible.

4) the tent was found on the route ,

5)footprints of 8-9 were found going away from the tent down to the treeline .

6) a fire was made and branches from that ceder tree were also used as insulation from the snow .

7) clothes were cut and repurposed for survival.( This does not imply outsiders ) 

8) there were attempts at making flooring in a ravine , these are the broken firs and ( I think) one birch tree at the den.

9) in recent reports and one at the time , it is said that these small trees are easy to snap with the hand .( The ones used for flooring at the den).

Bruised knuckles would probably occur during the above.

It is unrealistic for us all to agree on everything. Someone sees this and someone else sees something else that the other one misses. It is up to each of us to judge whether we are on the right path. You have nature, others may see it the other way around. I have it halfway, but not because I can't decide. I just see both.

[MDGross]

Ziljoe, Your steps 1-9 are very reasonable and they preclude an attack by outsiders. But your steps don't make mention of the fatal injuries suffered by the Ravine 4 and which seem to indicate violent deaths. Although, of course, there is no conclusive evidence.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, Your steps 1-9 are very reasonable and they preclude an attack by outsiders. But your steps don't make mention of the fatal injuries suffered by the Ravine 4 and which seem to indicate violent deaths. Although, of course, there is no conclusive evidence.

Thanks MDgross .

I can't agree more , the ravine injuries are the hardest to explain clearly. I look it that problem from many angles . As I've said many times before, I don't think we can ignore the mass of snow above the ravine 4. There is a branch that seems to spring back up after lyinda is removed in the photos. This suggests a downward movement. I'm reasonably convinced that the missing eyes etc are just the end result of being in the stream. Again it's the nature of the breaks and fractures that suggest one instant blow.

I am cautious to why their heads are , or would of been in the main flow if the water was flowing at the time. This doesn't make sense if they were making or extending a snow cave , however, it also doesn't make sense that they had time to cut clothes and adapt footwear and clothing if their were outsiders. ( And whole bunch of other reasons)  .

I ask my self many times why these bodies alone would be placed there by outsiders if the ravine was empty enough at the time of the incident. I don't think outsiders would shovel that much snow and why not put all the bodies there?.

There is no mention of finding any disturbance or items in the layers at that area , only the clothes and branches from the ceder to the den that made them probe in that area . If it were outsiders, they got lucky and the ravine filled up by pure coincidence that year.

[GlennM]

I submit that it was a slab slide that forced them from their tent. They were compelled to seek warmth and shelter urgently in the forest below. As part of their survival plan, they looked for a refuge from the wind. A ravine would be better than a tree to shelter behind and produce a fire which radiates heat. In their quest, they experienced a second slide, this time on a snow cornice at the ravine. The fall produced crush wounds, exacerbated after death by the overburden of snow. Those who tried to regain the tent, or as some suppose, tried to attract a passing flight, did not.

There were no intruders, invaders, assasins, nor beasts involved. Rather, the unknown compelling force was the urge to complete the hike for master of sport certification. This was owing to what would be a year's delay if they abandoned the quest out of an abundance of caution. All felt the risk was reasonable and Ortoten could be rounded.

They thought, "it is better to fail at great things than to succeed at nothing." Nature is indifferent to human wants and desires.

They did not appreciate there are degrees of failure.

[SURI]

Ziljoe, Your steps 1-9 are very reasonable and they preclude an attack by outsiders. But your steps don't make mention of the fatal injuries suffered by the Ravine 4 and which seem to indicate violent deaths. Although, of course, there is no conclusive evidence.

Violent death on the slope and by the cedar.

No outsiders.