My Freezer Does a Better Job Than Kholat Syakhl

[CalzagheChick]

Sometimes I feel like the only person in existence actively questioning the level of decomposition of the Rav 4 bodies. Not only do I question the level of decay having been preserved underneath snow & ice for three months in minus zero temperatures/conditions EVEN WITH THE IMPENDING SPRING THAW, but  I am beginning to question my understanding of science and the laws of biology/chemistry as I've always understood them:

Freezing temperature preserve biological matter. As I resigned myself to explaining Dubinina's missing glossal tissues as the result of naturally-present microbes in the running creek bed in which the bodies were discovered, I still can't get over the fact that I've always understood those microbes, particularly those heavily documented in the study and science of decaying human bodies, aren't particularly active in sub zero temperatures. Again, this is a highly documented phenomenon. Have we gone back to spontaneous regeneration and other medieval laws of science? When you leave a piece of meat outside in room temperature conditions and above then come back to it a week later, the meat didn't turn into a crawling pile of maggots through magic and an act of God. We now know that flies and other insects laid eggs on the decaying matter, recognized by smell and heat, which flourished on the pile of rotten tissue as it produced gases and other molecules that naturally sustain the embryonic stage of life for insects.

This doesn't happen to the chicken legs that I just put in my freezer (maintained at 0 degrees.) In fact, all I need to do is pull out my chicken legs and thaw them responsibly in cold conditions to prevent those dormant microbes from going to town on my hard earned dollars and spoiling my kids' dinner. By doing this, I will find perfectly preserved meat arguably as fresh as the day it was killed or bought or whatever you want to say. So why didn't this happen with the Rav 4?

Any plates I've ever streaked in microbiology were always incubated at body temperatures: roughly 97-98 degrees Farenheit. We know that the body increases it's temperature to febrile conditions in order to burn off illness-inducing bacterial infections. Conditions in the sub zero renders most living organisms dormant if it does not kill them (as in the case of human beings who generally succumb to hypothermia rather than just systematically shut down to remain dormant until a later thaw.) Please tell me I'm not the only person that just can't explain this away.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I guess the way I see it is as follows.

When they were found, the winter thaw was already begining as seen by the running water in which they were found in.  I don't know exactly how long they had been thawed out, but it appears in the recovery photos they were limp and not frozen, however, I do not know at what water temps microbs are able to start doing their work at.  I would also imagine this time of year during the thaw, critters and rodents are coming out and burrowing around in the snow looking for...... anything to scavenge.  I would also think these critters would smell the victims thawing and rotting corps 4 miles away. 

[CalzagheChick]

I'd really like to know how long we'd expect this level of decomp to happen and compare it to weather records observed in 1959... just because it's the right thing to do. Clearly these corpses were unrecognizable. Three months in sub polar mountains... I don't think it adds up no matter which way you try to cut the mustard.

Do we have average yearly climate data for Kholat Syakhl?

[Loose}{Cannon]

 

All good points.    I haven't exactly seen or know where to find that data, or know where to begin processing the information in regards to how it would effect the bodies.  How long after thaw would a body reach this state?

[CalzagheChick]

Oh believe me... this is more of a task for the University of Tennessee to take on. Don't they have a specific forensics program that sets up labs for testing human corpse decomp? I'm pretty sure it's Tennessee. They mention it in a funny part of that stupid movie "The Blind Side" when Kathy Bates is trying to scare the boy into going to Ole Miss.

[CalzagheChick]

Some studies on climate changes and decomposition. I've tried to stick to scientific material only.

Unfortunately I can't get to the full text, only the abstract. If you are a student at a University you may be able to get access to this article.
Seasonal Variation of Carcass Decomposition and Gravesoil Chemistry in a Cold (Dfa) Climate*
Jessica Meyer B.S.  Brianna Anderson B.S.  David O. Carter Ph.D.
First published: 03 July 2013 https://doi.org/10.1111/1556-4029.12169 Cited by: 20
*Presented in part at the 61st Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, February 16–21, 2009, in Denver, CO. ... Less
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1556-4029.12169


University of Montana
ScholarWorks at University of Montana
Theses, Dissertations, Professional Papers Graduate School
2007
Decomposition and the Freeze-Thaw Process in
Northwestern Montana: A Preliminary Study
Laura Beth Wagster
The University of Montana
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e5b2/8b68890384ff50ecf44c801ec10d5610684e.pdf
"The goal of this project is to observe decomposition rates of four wolf carcasses over the
duration of winter in northwestern Montana and to consider these rates as they apply to
humans. Four wolf carcasses were studied in order to assess decomposition rates,
particularly winter intervals of the freeze-thaw process and the possibility of the reemergence
of insects during ideal conditions. It is hypothesized that the majority of insect
activity on the carcasses will be limited to only internal activity during harsh weather
conditions. Both carcasses placed in June decayed at predictable rates of
decompositional stages and wolves 1 and 2 remained in the dry stage of decomposition in
May. Wolves 3 and 4 were placed in September. Wolf 4 decayed at predictable rates of
decompositional stages, yet wolf 3 took much longer to transition from the active decay
stage to the dry stage. Both carcasses remained in the dry stage of decomposition until
May. Continual fluctuations of weather during the winter months at the Lubrecht Forest
provided useful information regarding the freeze-thaw process and the presence of insects
during conditions otherwise thought to be inhospitable to thier activity. Larvae were
observed on all carcasses, even after periods of snow fall and snow melt. After numerous
freeze-thaw cycles, wolf 3 was still observed to linger in the advanced stage of
decomposition.
 If applicable to humans, these results provide very useful information regarding what
might occur during the decomposition process in an environment such as northwestern
Montana. Although the classifications of insects in this study are basic, the proof that
they exist and, in fact, re-emerge during winter conditions is significant in itself. The
interpretation of this data as it applies to forensic cases offers forensic anthropology a
new aspect of the time since death interval" (Wagster et al. pp. ii)
This study took place in Northwestern Montana in the US so we are looking more at the latitude of Kazakhstan rather than the northern Urals. In order to get the proper latitude we would need this study to take place in the Alaskan tundra of course. Nonetheless this is the yearly climate of Kalispell, a city in NW Montana.




I decided to enter a search for a place with like climate to Russian Siberia. The only place I could think of that I can relate to with some degree of certainly as far as like climate is concerned is Alaska. This is what I found. Microbe Wiki. Now THIS is interesting--quick jump to "Reduced Decomposition" and read about the Alaskan tundra with reduced precipitation but saturated ground--reduced oxygen to microbial life equals reduced decomp.
Microbe Wiki - Alaskan Tundra
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Alaskan_tundra

[CalzagheChick]

And here I've found some climate information. However, in 1959 I'm unsure that the climate was the same. Global warming and all...

[Loose}{Cannon]

Global warming.        

[Vietnamka]

Put frozen chicken into the cold water (+2-3 C). Froze chicken and water, defroze chikaen and water but keep  T below 3 degrees. Froze and defroze again few times))

[sarapuk]

If the temperatures were as low as we are informed then its hard to believe that decomposition is the reason for the extraordinary finds on Dubinina's body ie missing eyes and missing tongue.

[DH106]

Temperatures were low, much below freezing at the time of the 'incident', but much later when the 'rav4' were found it was into May (summer season). Clearly the temperature at this time was above freezing because of the running stream water i.e. NOT still frozen.

In my view, submerging any dead body (or part of) in 'live' running water will rapidly increase the rate of decomposition compared to any body parts still encased in snow/ice.

[sarapuk]

Yes the temperature was above freezing in May. Its possible for decomposition to start then. But that doesnt explain the autopsy report concerning the HYOID BONE. The matter of the missing tongue can not be taken in isolation from the matter of the HYOID BONE. Also there is no detail of decomposition caused by bacteria or other scavengers. And we dont have more photos to see the complete body. And what we do see shows that much skin is still intact. And the running water would surely have had access to all exterior body parts.

[SimplyMadness]

Of course your freezer does a better job at preserving meat than a ravine in the mountains. It’s a completely isolated, controlled environment designed for such a task.

Those 4 bodies had been laying in running water for weeks. The skin of a decaying corpse would be slipping off and rinsed away in such conditions regardless of microbes, which I’m sure were also present doing their damage.

[WAB]

Of course your freezer does a better job at preserving meat than a ravine in the mountains. It’s a completely isolated, controlled environment designed for such a task.

Those 4 bodies had been laying in running water for weeks. The skin of a decaying corpse would be slipping off and rinsed away in such conditions regardless of microbes, which I’m sure were also present doing their damage.

Yes, you are completely correct. Just as correct DH106. I spoke about it 10 more or 12 years ago when only has begun on Internet discussion about  this case.
If to tell shortly for reception of similar destructions of parts of a body Lyudmila, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle and Simon Zolotaryov has following factors:
1.   Frozen, and then defrozen bodies decay much faster, than is simple bodies on air.
2.   The stream Stream has a water pressure, means, there is a mechanical loading. Let it is small, but it happens long.
3.   Water after has thawed, has the big saturation by oxygen as snow is the frozen water with the big maintenance of air.
4.   Water even right after to thaw, contains microorganisms. It not animals or insects, and the small organisms reminding very minimum plankton.
All it together also operates very aggressively and quickly.
I have a similar example, when the body has been found in water (the river Kitoy, highland East Sayan mountains, about lake Baikal), almost completely frozen in to ice on May, 01st 1973 (we us showed a photo) and when we its have arrived to take away in a mortuary there already was on May, 05th or 06 very few the remained organic parts. It was all for 4 or 5 days.
Therefore there is nothing surprising that such absent parts of bodies have been found out.
Here who asked that, why there are such damages by a number on a body, and as at all no other people?
Too it is easy to explain it. Snow thawed not completely everywhere, but only there where a stream could lay the way. Therefore bodies contacted to water only separate fragments. The most part of a surface of all bodies was вморожена during snow, therefore there damages were less appreciable.
But is also damages which have turned out at their digging out.

[sarapuk]

Of course your freezer does a better job at preserving meat than a ravine in the mountains. It’s a completely isolated, controlled environment designed for such a task.

Those 4 bodies had been laying in running water for weeks. The skin of a decaying corpse would be slipping off and rinsed away in such conditions regardless of microbes, which I’m sure were also present doing their damage.

Yes, you are completely correct. Just as correct DH106. I spoke about it 10 more or 12 years ago when only has begun on Internet discussion about  this case.
If to tell shortly for reception of similar destructions of parts of a body Lyudmila, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle and Simon Zolotaryov has following factors:
1.   Frozen, and then defrozen bodies decay much faster, than is simple bodies on air.
2.   The stream Stream has a water pressure, means, there is a mechanical loading. Let it is small, but it happens long.
3.   Water after has thawed, has the big saturation by oxygen as snow is the frozen water with the big maintenance of air.
4.   Water even right after to thaw, contains microorganisms. It not animals or insects, and the small organisms reminding very minimum plankton.
All it together also operates very aggressively and quickly.
I have a similar example, when the body has been found in water (the river Kitoy, highland East Sayan mountains, about lake Baikal), almost completely frozen in to ice on May, 01st 1973 (we us showed a photo) and when we its have arrived to take away in a mortuary there already was on May, 05th or 06 very few the remained organic parts. It was all for 4 or 5 days.
Therefore there is nothing surprising that such absent parts of bodies have been found out.
Here who asked that, why there are such damages by a number on a body, and as at all no other people?
Too it is easy to explain it. Snow thawed not completely everywhere, but only there where a stream could lay the way. Therefore bodies contacted to water only separate fragments. The most part of a surface of all bodies was вморожена during snow, therefore there damages were less appreciable.
But is also damages which have turned out at their digging out.

I believe we would have seen much more decomposition if the above quoted was correct.  What we see is specific ie MISSING EYES and what we hear is MISSING TONGUE.  Surely these parts would not have been the only parts to disappear if decomposition was the cause. Large parts of the body would have disappeared, but that was not the case.

[SimplyMadness]

Of course your freezer does a better job at preserving meat than a ravine in the mountains. It’s a completely isolated, controlled environment designed for such a task.

Those 4 bodies had been laying in running water for weeks. The skin of a decaying corpse would be slipping off and rinsed away in such conditions regardless of microbes, which I’m sure were also present doing their damage.

Yes, you are completely correct. Just as correct DH106. I spoke about it 10 more or 12 years ago when only has begun on Internet discussion about  this case.
If to tell shortly for reception of similar destructions of parts of a body Lyudmila, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle and Simon Zolotaryov has following factors:
1.   Frozen, and then defrozen bodies decay much faster, than is simple bodies on air.
2.   The stream Stream has a water pressure, means, there is a mechanical loading. Let it is small, but it happens long.
3.   Water after has thawed, has the big saturation by oxygen as snow is the frozen water with the big maintenance of air.
4.   Water even right after to thaw, contains microorganisms. It not animals or insects, and the small organisms reminding very minimum plankton.
All it together also operates very aggressively and quickly.
I have a similar example, when the body has been found in water (the river Kitoy, highland East Sayan mountains, about lake Baikal), almost completely frozen in to ice on May, 01st 1973 (we us showed a photo) and when we its have arrived to take away in a mortuary there already was on May, 05th or 06 very few the remained organic parts. It was all for 4 or 5 days.
Therefore there is nothing surprising that such absent parts of bodies have been found out.
Here who asked that, why there are such damages by a number on a body, and as at all no other people?
Too it is easy to explain it. Snow thawed not completely everywhere, but only there where a stream could lay the way. Therefore bodies contacted to water only separate fragments. The most part of a surface of all bodies was вморожена during snow, therefore there damages were less appreciable.
But is also damages which have turned out at their digging out.

I believe we would have seen much more decomposition if the above quoted was correct.  What we see is specific ie MISSING EYES and what we hear is MISSING TONGUE.  Surely these parts would not have been the only parts to disappear if decomposition was the cause. Large parts of the body would have disappeared, but that was not the case.

The corpses were clearly not in a great state of preservation. Just look at the faces of the 4 ravine bodies. They are essentially skulls with bits of skin hanging off them. Also keep in mind that the autopsy report does not just mention that only the tongue was gone, but the "diaphragm of the mouth" too, which I believe is the entire floor of the mouth.

[Nigel Evans]

I don't agree with the basic proposition that the decay is unusual. They were subjected to above zero C running water for some weeks and the photos demonstrate the force of it when found. Put a animal's head in front of a fire hose for just one week and see what you get. So the loss of eyes due to mechanical erosion is perfectly acceptable. But the complete removal of the tongue (including all base tissue and part of left cheek) less so. Here i would favour predation, the siberian crow before snow covered them or rodents afterwards. But there is the fact that her injuries overlap with cattle mutilations (and human ones) which attract electro magnetic theories. But on balance i'd opt for predation assisted by mechanical erosion. I don't think microbes are relevant.

[sarapuk]

Obviously we do not know exactly how cold it was during the time that the bodies at the Ravine were in that location. They were covered with snow and there was running water when they were found. Q =  Why was Lyudmila Dubinina's tongue missing and not Semyon Zolotaryov's  ?  Both of them had missing eyeball's. Q =  Why were the other two not missing eyeballs or tongues  ?  We know about the very severe injuries to Lyudmila Dubinina's ribs and Semyon Zolotaryov's ribs. We know about the very severe injuries to Aleksander Kolevatov's neck. We know about the very severe injuries to Nikolai Thibeaux - Brignolle's head. The cold temperature must have been enough to preserve the bodies reasonably well, even up to the time they were found. The cold did not cause those very severe injuries. And it is highly unlikely that any thawing would result in the complete disappearance of a tongue and unusual or even extraordinary movement of THE THYROHYAL { THE GREATER HORN OR HORNS OF THE HYOID BONE } and THYROID CARTILAGE.

[SimplyMadness]

Obviously we do not know exactly how cold it was during the time that the bodies at the Ravine were in that location. They were covered with snow and there was running water when they were found. Q =  Why was Lyudmila Dubinina's tongue missing and not Semyon Zolotaryov's  ?  Both of them had missing eyeball's. Q =  Why were the other two not missing eyeballs or tongues  ?  We know about the very severe injuries to Lyudmila Dubinina's ribs and Semyon Zolotaryov's ribs. We know about the very severe injuries to Aleksander Kolevatov's neck. We know about the very severe injuries to Nikolai Thibeaux - Brignolle's head. The cold temperature must have been enough to preserve the bodies reasonably well, even up to the time they were found. The cold did not cause those very severe injuries. And it is highly unlikely that any thawing would result in the complete disappearance of a tongue and unusual or even extraordinary movement of THE THYROHYAL { THE GREATER HORN OR HORNS OF THE HYOID BONE } and THYROID CARTILAGE.

Why would we expect the bodies to decay in exactly the same fashion at exactly the same time? The bodies were in slightly different positions meaning water was not likely flowing over them evenly. Lyuda's body itself was laying face down in the stream.

[sarapuk]

I did not say that we expect the bodies to decay in the same fashion at exactly the same time.

[RidgeWatcher]

My biggest question is why was the Hyoid Bone, as described by the coroner, unusually mobile. It is such an odd thing to document for a coroner. The Hyoid bone is a solid "U" shaped bone that is fixed to the surrounding throat structure with cartilage. The coroner goes into detail regarding the color of the tissue but does not describe the Hyoid bone's surrounding tissue as if he was talking in code or unable to disclose the truth.

[Investigator]

This may be of interest in the context of this thread.  During the deadly attempt to climb Denali in 1967, discussed in the book, "Denali's Howl," one member of the group who stayed at the base camp (the others were to summit that day and come back to the tent), had no choice but to try and survive the sudden storm in the tent, but the tent was ripped open and he was found dead, clutching the central pole of the tent.  But his body was in very strange condition.  Some of it had apparently stayed frozen since then, but other parts had decayed substantially.  They realized that what happened is that during the day, parts of the body thawed and some decay occurred, then it froze back up during the night.

[RidgeWatcher]

Thank you, Investigator,

I have actually read Denali's Howl, which I enjoyed, though it has been some years. It brings forth the reality of just how the weather on a mountain can turn and become ferocious. Every mountain range has its own character. Personally I would never enter the Uintas in Utah or the Crazies in Montana.

What do we actually know about the weather or character of the Southern Urals? I know that Blinov's hikers went west through a more southern route but the Dyatlov hikers went north to Mt. Otorten via Kholat Syakhl, supposedly for a higher rating. Was there history in that area for fierce storms or horrendous winds?

[Investigator]

Thank you, Investigator,

I have actually read Denali's Howl, which I enjoyed, though it has been some years. It brings forth the reality of just how the weather on a mountain can turn and become ferocious. Every mountain range has its own character. Personally I would never enter the Uintas in Utah or the Crazies in Montana.

What do we actually know about the weather or character of the Southern Urals? I know that Blinov's hikers went west through a more southern route but the Dyatlov hikers went north to Mt. Otorten via Kholat Syakhl, supposedly for a higher rating. Was there history in that area for fierce storms or horrendous winds?

I saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel, if I remember correctly, as well as some Youtube videos showing a guy walking down the mountain from where they think the Dyatlov group had pitched their tent that night (possibly other videos).  It didn't seem too dangerous during the daytime, but at night the wind seemed to come off the mountain top like an avalanche of wind.  Still, the evidence suggests they made their way down the mountainside without major effort, as in the daytime video.  I think it was more about the tent getting iced up and they thought it would be destroyed, so they minimized the damage (or at least thought that's what they were doing), put some snow on the tent to keep the wind from doing more damage or blowing their gear all over the mountainside, but a less likely scenario is one or more of them was outside urinating, then fell on the tent while the others were sleeping, and they thought it was an avalanche so they cut up the tent to get out quickly.  Then the wind was clearly not going to allow them to survive the night so they came up with a plan to survive at the tree line, but they may have placed too much value on the fire idea.  I wish someone would do a basic reconstruction, because if that type of tent without heat became heavily iced up, we could say this is clearly the most likely issue that led to subsequent important decisions.

[sarapuk]

My biggest question is why was the Hyoid Bone, as described by the coroner, unusually mobile. It is such an odd thing to document for a coroner. The Hyoid bone is a solid "U" shaped bone that is fixed to the surrounding throat structure with cartilage. The coroner goes into detail regarding the color of the tissue but does not describe the Hyoid bone's surrounding tissue as if he was talking in code or unable to disclose the truth.

One of the toughest bones in the Human body. For me the missing link is between that bone and the Tongue. Was the Tongue torn out with great force  ! ? Was it Surgically removed ! ? Was some phenomenom involved ! ? I completely rule out Bacteria.  I also completely rule out Decomposition. I do so based on what evidence we have.

[eurocentric]

Besides the above-zero meltwater's own thawing and rinsing effect, the fluctuating flow of water would also scour out an air pocket beneath the snow, and that air space, warmer than the air above due to the snow's insulating properties, would also facilitate decomposition.

[sarapuk]

Besides the above-zero meltwater's own thawing and rinsing effect, the fluctuating flow of water would also scour out an air pocket beneath the snow, and that air space, warmer than the air above due to the snow's insulating properties, would also facilitate decomposition.

But the evidence we have does not show Decomposition of the type that would dissapear a Tongue or other body parts.